Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    I miss Hank Finkel.
    
    What's the scoop on Reggie...

      Kev, what with the Big Apple not having an NBA champion
     in 20 years I would think that you x-planted New Yorkers 
     would be the most appreciative of the success and class of 
     the NBA's most storied team not to mention their fans. You 
     know a, "that's what I want to be when I grow up" type of 
     thing. 
    

	Heard on the new this a.m. that Reggie is undergoing extensive tests
	at a Boston hospital.  MacDaniel certainly was a force last night.


	billl

    
    >> I miss Hank Finkel.
    
       I miss Terry Duerod.
    
    >> What's the scoop on Reggie...
    
       Word on the radio this morning was that he was suffering from a 
       "glucose deficiency" and he could/should be back for Game 2.

    Duerod's best days were with the Pistons...
    

    Glad to hear Reggie is okay.  I loved X's comment: "My eyes lit up when
    I saw they were playing me one-on-one."  Why can't Phoenix get guys
    like X?
    
    I wish Ed Pinckney could return.  I think they'll go farther with him
    in the lineup.  Why can't Phoenix get guys like Ed? 

    	Real smart move by the Celtics putting Reggie back in the game
    when they didn't even know what the heck was wrong with him.
    
    				/Don

    Gawd I hope Reggie Ok. The hail with Bball, every time I've seen the
    man on TV opr heard him interviewed, he exudes class. And what you said
    /er.
    
    I miss Hambone Williams and Rich Johnson.
    
    Why Hambone?? Loved them muttonchops and he helped the Celts to the
    champenship in Russell's last year.
    
    Why Johnson? Wail Rich was the backup to the backup C if'n ya catch my
    drift in the early 70's ( 69 or 70). Twas the crowd fav.. even tho he
    couldn't do much, he gave it his all. This was back in them days of the
    doubleheader at the Garden where a kid could spend a coupla clams
    and sneak into the great seats. Wail, me and me HS buddies went to
    a Celt game in '70 I believe, paid the standing room price ( mebbe $2)
    and snuck down somewhere behind the C's bench as they musta had a
    whopping crowd of 2G.
    
    Well about this time, po' Rich had been picked up by Boston's finest
    for suspected passing of counterfeit bills. Case was still under
    investigation and po' Rich was still carryin' the label. Well during
    A C's timeout, Rich was whar a backup to a backup should be... way in
    the back of the huddle, looking up at the crowd and paying no mind to
    the coach's instructions. Well we were purty close, and all of a
    sudden, we hear this booming voice a section behind us.. "HEY RICH!"
    Ol' Rich looks up in the general vicinty of the shout. The main
    continues, " GOT CHANGE FOR A TEN?". Well if looks could kill man Rich
    woulda vaporized this guy on the spot. We was howlin'. And from that
    moment on, I always wonder what happened to Rich Johnson.
    
    MikeL
    

    re: .9
    
    And this complaint from a guy who believes in blood and guts hockey :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Today's news on Reggie Lewis is NOT good.  He has a heart condition,
    and will not play any more this year.  No word yet on if this is a
    career-ending condition, or life-threatening.  As NBA basketball is
    such a strenuous endeavor, it could well turn out that his career is
    over, but that he could lead an active and productive life.
    
    Reggie has NEVER shown signs of being a fathead.  Whatever he's like in
    private isn't known to me, but publicly he certainly is a class act. 
    For a guy to go from a non-basketball factory University to the NBA
    isn't what you'd call expected.  To then become one of the better
    players and end up as team captain is quite an accomplishment.
    
    I'm pulling for him, and am hoping that it is a temporary situation.
    
    Lee

    Sounds like it's probably not a temporary condition, but not
    life-threatening.  He's in for second opinions.  Write him
    off for the rest of the playoffs though.  Hope he gets well
    soon.
    
    Also hope that IF the Hornets beat the Celtics, that this isn't
    used as an excuse. 

    > Also hope that IF the Hornets beat the Celtics, that this isn't
    > used as an excuse. 
     
    Who cares?
    
    I thought the Hornets would beat the Celts going in, straight up, but 
    it's not as if losing your best player isn't going to matter.  Not to 
    mention losing him in this fashion, where basketball becomes secondary 
    in everyone's minds...
    
    glenn
    

    Because the Hornets will have deserved it, that's all.

    
    Fortunately they caught it in time.  As far as the Celtics go, a very
    gutsy performance, too bad they lost.  It marred Kevin's stellar 
    performance.  I would have said this was the best series of the first
    round, but I'm afraid the Lakers are doing that.  Boy, could THAT be
    a gag of monumental proportions!!!

Hearing all about Reggie Lewis, his condition, etc, these days.

Seems Reggie apparently was unhapy with the treatment he was receiving at New 
England Baptist Hospital, under the auspeces of the Celtics.  He checked himself 
out, went to Brigham and Womens (across the street), and checked in there for
another evaluation.  Anyone have any more info on this?  If he plays again, or
doesn't play again, it cast a bitter shadow on the whole affair.

The front page story in the Boston Globe today indicates that Lewis will likely
not play again, while the team physician backed off from that in other forums.

As for on the court, the Celtics looked very very slow, and made many too many 
mistakes lasted night.  It would take 180 degree turn around for them not to
be eliminated tomorrow night.

    
    For several years now, no matter who they've been playing, Indiana,
    Atlanta, Cleveland, whoever, the Celtics have been bigtime dogs on the
    road in the playoffs.  They barely hang in there at home in the close
    games, then get annihilated on the road.  This is not a good formula.
    I keep hearing and seeing on the radio and in the papers predictions
    that the Celtics should be able to win one of these two games in
    Charlotte to force Game 5.  Even if they'd had Reggie Lewis, I'd say 
    forget it, not gonna happen (of course they'd probably have been able 
    to squeak out Game 2, and then been able to play another tight one in
    Game 5).
    
    glenn 
    

    This is really sad.  Does anyone know why stuff like this didn't show
    up until after he's been playing hoops 12+ years?  
    
    Losing Bias and Larry was bad enough.  The C's are in trouble with no
    all-star caliber go-to guy.
    
    Mike

    	Glenn, the Celtics will have to bet worse before they get better.
    With Reggie's career in jeapordy it could happen real soon.  It'll
    be kind of hard to justify $50.00 seats if the team wins 20 games.
    With regards to Reggie checking into Brigham and Womens it's only
    natural to want a second opinion on a life threatening disease.
    But it's certainly sad to see the front office finger pointing with
    regards to why they let Reggie play after collapsing on the court.
    
    				/Don

    
      /Don, I think you were absolutely right when you said it was
     stupid of the Celtics to put Reggie back in the game when they
     weren't sure of what was wrong with him. Reggie apparently thought
     so too because that was a factor in his seeking a second opinion.

Well, look at the late Pistol Pete.   His condition never showed itself
until he dropped dead.

Good for Reggie that at least they found it....


'Saw

    I'm not a doctor, but I played one when I was 4...
    
    In an interview with one of the doctors who had examined him, it seems
    his condition is one which may be congenital, or picked up from a
    virus, or possibly from a deficiency of vitamins.  The true of the
    matter is, they don't really know why Reggie has it.
    
    Beyond that, this condition causes a thickening of the heart tissue,
    which in turn reduces the amount of blood pumped per cycle.  Therefore,
    when exercising, the heart must complete more pumping cycles to provide
    the same amout of blood it would have if the condition didn't exist.
    
    Now, I heard a radio report this AM that one of the doctors of the new
    team stated that Reggie MAY be able to return next year, depending on
    the success of the treatment.  I didn't see or hear of any mention of
    treatment, prior to hearing that.
    
    Lee

Thanks for the info Lee. I was wondering about potential treatment and if the
doctors can be positive about anything unless they go for a look.

There is much about the human body that is unknown and too many doctors making
100% diagnoses with minimul information. 

I'd want a second and third and fourth opinion on a diagnosis like this. 

However if there was any doubt about being able to play, I'd sit if I was reggie.


Life is too short to play russian roulette,

Metz

>There is much about the human body that is unknown and too many doctors making
>100% diagnoses with minimul information. 

There's a lot of good docs out there, but as my brother said, there's also
a lot who only got C's in medical school.....


>Life is too short to play russian roulette,

Quite a philosophical question though -- die young doing what you wanna
do, or live a long life having to give up your dream.   'Tis a choice
I'd not want to make.....


'Saw

>Easy choice when you have a family (Reggie Lewis does).


Oh, I wasn't aware of that.   That does make it tougher, I guess....

    He has a young son, just over a year old.
    
    I've known Reggie Lewis since his freshman year at Northeastern, and
    he is one of the nicest, most unassuming, non-egotistical people I've
    ever met in sports.  He is shy, but always friendly, and does more
    work in the community than any other person on any pro sports team 
    in Boston, almost all of it unpublicized.
    
    The last noter was correct in stating that the main reason for
    switching hospitals was the exclusion of him and his wife from
    the discussions of his condition.  This attitude that Reggie is
    an employee and the Celtics will notify him when a dscision is
    made about his life is why Reggie left the Baptist Hospital to enroll
    at Brigham and Women's.  More than a second opinion, Reggie wanted
    to be the one in charge of his care.  Not that there was anything
    wrong with the care he was receiving at the first hospital.  Reggie
    stressed that was not the case; it was that he just felt he should 
    be the one calling the shots.
    
    NAZZ  

    
    Well, with the Celtics trailing in double figures thruout most of the
    game last night, which I was watching on espn - can't stand listening
    to Cousy - I barely heard mention that Dean "Snuffy" Smith was in
    attendance along with a brief reference to NC alum Rick Fox.
    
    And then came the rally and there was Fox in the back court smartly
    calling time - why couldn't I see that dagger poised in the hand of
    Snuffy's ghost.
    
    And then, 10 second violation - Rick Fox gags one for the Snuffer,
    highest tribute an ol Tarheel can give to his coach.
    
    So I had to look up Frank's tribute to Snuffy, untitled but could be
    "Snuffy takes the Pipe".  Here are a few stanzas
    
    <Because the crowd was cognizant, they knew one joyous fact,
    <They'd seen it time and time again, they'd seen old Snuffy's act.
    .
    <There was ease in UCONN's manner, as they returned from their time out
    <They knew the chances were so great that Snuffy would bow out.
    <For Jim Calhoun had told them, Snuffy's an ordinary bloke,
    <But here in this here "champeenship" we can count on him to choke.
    
    <Ten thousand eyes were on Snuff, as he double checked his System,
    <Rick Fox was two for twenty, but the Snuffer wouldn't yank 'im.
    .
    .
    <Rick Fox was the man said the System, and Snuffy's heart strings sang,
    <but then Fox put the ball up, and it rebounded with a mightly clang.
    
    Or
    
    When Ford asked the hapless Fox, why 
    the 10 second clock did you not heed?
    "I saw ol Snuf and just assummed,
    I'd get all the time I'd need."
    

Can someone post the last few possessions of yesterdays game?

Douglas steals the ball, scores, Celtics lead 103-102

Fill in the blanks


Mourning scores, Hornets lead 104-103
Browns tip is blocked - game over.

The Crazy Met

    TCM, it went something like this.
    
    Hornets bring the ball back up court down by a point.  Hornets put up
    the shot, it hits the rim.  Parish gets the rebound, finally gets the
    ball to Fox who calls timeout.  Celts inbound the ball to Fox, but Fox
    can't get across halfcourt in time.  Turnover, Hornets get the ball,
    put up the shot.  Shot is rejected by McHale but ball is ruled OB, off
    the Celts.  Hornets inbound, get it to Mourning at the top of the key
    and SWISH.

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (BRUCE MARTIN)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Celtics' McHale retires

	CHARLOTTE, N.C. (UPI) -- Ending a season of speculation, Kevin McHale
announced his retirement from the Boston Celtics Wednesday night
following his club's 104-103 playoff loss to the Charlotte Hornets.
	McHale, one of the Celtics all-time greats, ended a 13-year NBA
career by scoring 19 points off the bench. The Hornets eliminated the
Celtics, 3-1, in their first-round playoff series.
	``I made this decision earlier this season, when I had lost any kind
of mental edge throughout the regular season,'' he said. ``It was really
frustrating. You can be physically impaired a little bit, but you can be
mentally strong. You can go out there and compete. I really lost it
mentally.
	``There is always something that separates the really good players
from the average players, and I lost it. It took me until a couple of
weeks ago to find it again and I have to admit, I was very proud fo the
way I played in the playoffs.''
	McHale was the third pick in the 1980 NBA draft with a selection
acquired from Golden State, along with Robert Parish, in one of the most
lopsided trades ever made. The Celtics traded two first-round draft
picks, which turned out to be Joe Barry Carroll and Rickey Brown.
	McHale teamed up with Larry Bird and Parish to lead the Celtics to
NBA titles in 1981, '84 and '86.
	``I had come to this conclusion last fall,'' McHale said. ``I was
ready to quit. I told my wife and kids I was done playing. I was hurt at
the time, my ankle was bothering me. My two boys wanted me to play
because they wanted to be ballboys and they loved the guys on the team.
	``I geared it up one more time for Mike and Joe.''
	McHale said the future is open for his next career.
	``I have a lot of plans, but until anything is written in stone, I'm
not going to say anything,'' said the former University of Minnesota
star. ``It will keep me busy, but there will never, ever be anything
like playing basketball for the Boston Celtics -- that I can guarantee
you.
	``It was a once in a lifetime deal. I'm as proud of anything of
staying with that franchise for 13 years. The teammates I went through
and had fun with are special.''
	At the end of the game, which knocked the Celtics from the playoffs,
Hornets reserve center Mike Gminski came up to McHale and hugged him
while the veteran Boston forward fought back tears.
	``I've know Mike for a long time,'' McHale said. ``That was real
nice. Mike got me all choked up...It was really nice for Mike to come
over and take a minute to say, 'Nice, career.' It made me feel really
good.''
	When informed of McHale's announcement, Hornets star Larry Johnson
said: ``Let him retire, but tell him to give me the book with all his
moves and let me perfect all of those moves. Kevin had a great, great
career. He is one of the pioneers of this league and I think he went out
a champion.
	``I wish I knew he was going to retire because I would have gone up
and hugged him, too.''

    	'Snuffy would've been proud of Brick's performance lasted night.
    
    				/Don

    With Reggie's health in question, I'm surprised to hear that Dee is
    available.

    	I wouldn't trade him.  He's coming off a bad year and he still
    has potential.  I would sign Chief and lay off this year's lousy
    free agent crop.  Next year some premier players could be available.
    
    				/Don

 I haven't seen too many weakness in Danny Manning's game other than his own
 mind.....Dee Brown I'm afraid Slasher will never be any more than potential
 untapped. Sort of the Irving Fryar of the Celtics. If Gamble could learn
 some defense and how to move without the ball better....

 alls I know is next year we get to take the LOGES and PROMENADES back!!!!

 mike

    
 > alls I know is next year we get to take the LOGES and PROMENADES back!!!!
    
    Fear not, the Delaware North Inc. Sports Complex (i.e. the New Garden)
    is on its way, and win or lose it'll be jam-packed with FauxFans well
    into the next century.  Enjoy the reprieve while it lasts...
    
    glenn
    

    	MikeC, Manning stinks as a defensive player and it's his feet
    not his mind that ain't quick enough.  At the prevailing prices
    we will not be able to take the Loges and Promenades back.  And
    if the fans do not want to pay $50.00 to see a 20-25 win team the
    owners will move the team to Tampa Bay.
    
    				/Don

yeah but they won't be at the games so we'll be able to move down...

    Phoenix already has Ainge.  Signing Parish (*UNRESTRICTED* free agent
    after June 1) would just be another building block in the conspiracy to
    lure Celtic magic here for the transplants to enjoy.

So the Celts are going to try and stave off lottery by going for quantity over
quality, eh? 

They should face the music..No matter how many Alaas, Bricks, Shermans
and Kliens they throw at the opposition, talent is what wins in the NBA and to
get talent you've got to tank it for 2 years and get 2 lottery picks.

You can't rebuild in the NBA via free agency the way you can in MLB. 

Metz

    Parish would fit these teams nicly nexted year..
    
    Bulls, Suns, Warriors, Sonics, Heat, Hawks, Jazz...
    
    REK

    I saw where Bill Walton will be inducted into the Hall of Fame but
    missed the date.  Anybody know when that's supposed to happen or did it
    already happen?

    
    
    Today.

    
      Yesterday, at a press conference, Reggie Lewis, flanked by his
     doctors, announced that he expects to return to play next year.
     Why, if it weren't for a cruel twist of fate...

    
       Tonight's the NBA draft and if the 'Tics come out of this thing with
      either George Lynch or even Corey Blount I'll be happy. If they bring
      Luther Wright or Malcolm Mackey back with 'em, they deserve a good
      cuffing.

Associated Press says Ervin Johnson is the Celtics' man...namewise that's
a kick in the teeth. Luther needs a serious slap and some tutoring but
as a porject he might be worth a gamble. No just cause to draft Mackey
unless you want a player who can fold up like a cheap suit at times.
I like Lynch's game and I'd also like to see him in Green despite his
heritage.....

mike

     Luther doesn't plasy with enough motivation for my liking. He's got 
    the body but I don't think you can teach intensity. Mackey showed me
    what he was made of in the ACC tourney. Fluff. Lynch, however, despite 
    his negatives (size, perimeter shooting) is a guy I just love. He plays
    aggressively, he plays intelligently and he plays 40 minutes of the game.
    Corey Blount is probaly a bit of aproject but *I* think he's a better
    risk than Wright.

    	I agree about Wright but wouldn't mind the C's taking a chance on
    Earvin "The Other" Johnson.  Lynch would be a good pickup because the
    X-Main doesn't impress on the defensive side.
    
    				/Don

 Plus Lynch will get his boards. Just cause he 6'7" ain't going to stop
 him. How was Luther supposed to get motivated when his coach sat him at
 crucial times, and never real featured him in the offense? With Dehere,
 Karnivous and Walker needing shots as well Luther was on the short end of
 it. He's got a soft touch around the hoop, he can hook, he can rebound and
 block shots. He can get lost though at time if they could cure it then it
 looks like a win-situation to me...then again maybe it's just my NECCJ'in
 POPB'in of the Big East talkin'....

 mike

    The rumor mill has Lynch gone long before the C's get their pick. 
    Seems the Lakers have had so much success wif Carolina forwards that
    they're gonna snatch up George.
    
    The Dean factor, dontcha know.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

I thought the lakers had thier hearts set on another guard? I fergit the name
but all indications were pointing toward him...

I'm hoping Rex Walters stays around long enough for the Sonics to pick him.

Metz

    Lindsay Hunter?

   Well, the 'Tics drafted Acie Earl out of Iowa and I for one am ecstatic.
  With some work at Kevin McHale's big mans camp and under the tutelage of
  the Chief, old Acie could become a first class stiff. Yay.

Not a Celts fain, but Acie Earl was one of my favorite college ball players.  I think
this is a great pick by the Celtics.  Boy, the East will be where the real men play
center over the next few years.  You still got Patrick, and the Shack, and Alonzo,
and now you got Bradley, Acie Earl, and the Bullets drafted a real project - a 7' 7"
guy from romania or somewhere....

Youwza!

JD

Turn off the hype machine, JD.

Sorry Doug, but spent the weekend in NY.  I'm just swimming in the type of
hype that Tommy and Glenn told me about.  Don't know if all the hype about
the Mets Tragic Number, the 1 sentence about the Knicks, or the 1/4 page
afforded the draft picks of the three NHL teams is what made me into a hype
machine...

;-)

JD

    Nuttin' to hype in NY either JD exceptin' the 17 pages dedicated to
    the Yanks in all papers.
    
    Wait till the Mutts win two in a row ( or have they?). 
    
    MikeL
    

 Hey JD, what the hell newspaper are you reading that only has a one page
 sports page?

    re: .62
    
    Yup, last night the Mets won a 2nd game in a row. Of course
    they needed to play Florida to do it :-(
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Tommy -

Didn't have one page - just gave some examples of hype that I saw.  Read the
Daily News, the Post, the times and the Rocklan County Journal News...

Knicks did ask John Starks to bulk up in the off season.  What HYPE!

JD

   What do you expect them to hype? The last place Mets? The second place
   Yankees? All of the other teams that are off-season? Geesh!

  BTW - JD, if you read "Daily News, the Post, the times and the Rocklan 
        County Journal News" and all you got was "all the hype about the 
        Mets Tragic Number, the 1 sentence about the Knicks, or the 1/4 
        page afforded the draft picks of the three NHL teams" you might
        want to seriously consider picking up the Boston Globe next time
        you want to read a sports page while you're down there.

    
    So Steinbrenner waited till the week to sit down with Mario Cuomo and
    scheme about abandoning The House That Ruth Built.  In other words,
    The Idiot let you enjoy a peaceful weekend for a change...
    
    glenn
    

Tommy -

THere was lots of sports - but no hype.  I tried to find this awesome
N.Y. hype that folks from podunk towns keep telling me about, but that's
all I could find.  Oh yeah, they did hype Anthony Young's run at the 
loss record.

JD

  see .66

    Posted from the Celtics notesfile - thought people in here who don't
    have access to the Boston Globe would be interested in this.

    Amazing article in today's Globe by Jackie McMullin.  She goes in depth
    into why Reggie hasn't participated in any basketball workouts, and why
    the Celtics front office has seemed to back off from their support of
    him, since Dave Gavitt's big hug at the Dr. Mudge press conference.
    
    Jackie shows a lot of empathy for Reggie, saying how it makes sense
    that Reggie is struggling internally with the question of when he
    should begin full court workouts.  She noted that the whole basketball
    world is watching, waiting to see if you collapse again, and the
    pressure from that is immense.
    
    Then she pointedly asks, given this pressure, why is the team
    distancing itself from Reggie?  "It has become clear now that what
    Celtics officials have said publicly and how they are operating
    provately are two very different things." 
    
    Jackie wants to know why is the onus of his comeback squarely on his
    shoulders?  The answer, of course, is money.  The Celtics attorneys
    say that once Reggie switched doctors, he assumed liability for his
    condition.  However, a week after the Dr. Mudge press conference, Mudge
    and Lewis wanted to present the findings from Brigham and Women's to
    the physicians the Celtics assembled.  THE CELTICS REFUSED!!!!!!!!!!!!
    "Their attitude was - it's your doctor, your diagnosis!"
    
    Jackie asks:  "So, if the Celtics are not willing to accept liability,
    does that mean Lewis must report to training camp with his own
    physician?  His own trainer?  His own coach?  Let's say team officials
    ask Lewis to sign a waiver releasing them from liability.  Should he
    sign it?  If he doesn't, should the Celtics let him play?"
    
    A very interesting and thought-provoking article to a problem that
    continues to have no easy answers.
    
    NAZZ
    

    	But NAZZ, I can see the Celtics' point in this.  Their doctors said
    Reggie should not play basketball, then Reggie found a doctor who said
    he can.  Why assume responsibility for what could possibly be a tragedy
    when they've already forewarned him?  It's an ugly situation, but I
    don't think that the Celtics' management are the only bad guys in this. 
    If they refuse to let Reggie play he would probably sue them.
    
    				/Don

I thought the Celtics doctors concurred that Lewis could play basketball.

The Crazy Met

    I think Jackie recommended a third party "uninvolved with the politics
    of Boston Hospitals" be brought in.
    
    Speaking of excellent boston writers, past and present of the distaff
    side:  Leslie Visser is having a lot of fun recovering from the broken
    hip she sufferred jogging what wis half the entertainment and sports
    world dropping off Italian dinners at the hosptal (USA Today).
    
    I still recall the excellent job she did with the BC Basketball fixing
    trial and the railroading of the 3rd stringer in place of the players
    who actually threw the games.
    
    b

    As someone who has known Leslie Visser for 15 years, she never knew
    if the balls were bloen up or stuffed up for the longest time.  She
    turned a cheerleading career at BC into a sportswriting job at the
    Globe because she used to hang around with the Shaughnessy-Ryan-Madden-
    Montville crowd.  She never had an original thought in her life.
    She pissed off practically every writer on the Globve staff, even those
    who helped get her the job, by continually using other people's ideas,
    quotes, and even parts of interviews.  If she were a guy, she woulda
    gotten bounced.  SHe finally realized the print medium was not for
    her, married Dick Stockton, and the rest is history.
    
    NAZZ

    So you respect and admire the hard work and originality Leslie puts
    into her work?  Or did I misinterpret what you're saying?
    

    
    Marrying a dweeb like Stockton is what did it for me...
    
    glenn
    

    I agree that her BC straight basketball coverage was hopeless.
    
    But for something like a trial I was impressed.

$!    Command format:   
$!    
$!    $ @celtics p1 p2 p3
$!
$!    p1 = item to search for, such as opponent's name, TV station, day of week)
$!    p2 = forecasting switch; enter Y to enable; N or blank to disable
$!    p3 = if p2 is Y, enter a number from 1-31; 7 is the default
$!    
$ Save_Message = F$Environment("Message")
$ Set Message/Nosever/Noid/Notext/Nofac
$ Say :== Write sys$output
$ dow = "''f$cvtime(""today"",,""weekday"")'"
$ td = "''f$time()'"
$ day= "''f$extract(0,2,td)'"
$ month=f$extract(3,3,td)
$ year=f$extract(7,4,td)
$ file = f$environment("procedure")
$ gametoday = f$extract(3,4,f$time())+f$extract(8,2,f$cvtime("today"))
$ P1 = f$edit(P1,"collapse")
$ If P1 .eqs. "" 
$ then 
$ lookingfortoday = "TRUE"
$ p1 = gametoday
$ Say "Today's Boston Celtics' basketball game: "
$ else
$ Say "Selected Boston Celtics' basketball game(s): "
$ lookingfortoday = "FALSE"
$ endif
$ search 'file' 'p1'
$ is_there = $status
$ if is_there .eqs. "%X08D78053" 
$ then 
$ if lookingfortoday then Say "No game today."
$ if .not. lookingfortoday then Say "No such game."
$ endif
$next_n_days:
$ if P2 .eqs. "" .or. P2 .eqs. " " then goto done
$ if P2 .eqs. "Y" 
$ then
$      at_a_glance = 7
$      if P3 .eqs. "" .or. P3 .eqs. " " then P3 = at_a_glance
$      if P3 .lt. 1 .or. P3 .gt. 31 then goto bad_reply
$ else
$      if P2 .nes. "N" then goto bad_reply
$      goto done
$ endif
$ Say "Boston Celtic games in next "+"''P3'"+" days:"
$ month = f$edit(f$extract(0,3,"''p1'"),"UPCASE")
$ n_day = f$extract(4,2,"''p1'")
$ count = 1
$next_day:
$ n_day = n_day + 1
$ if month .eqs. "OCT" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "NOV" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "NOV" .AND. n_day .gt. 30 
$ then 
$ month = "DEC" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "DEC" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "JAN" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "JAN" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "FEB" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "FEB" .AND. n_day .gt. 28 
$ then 
$ month = "MAR" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "MAR" .AND. n_day .gt. 31 
$ then 
$ month = "APR" 
$ goto new_month 
$ endif
$ if month .eqs. "APR" .AND. n_day .gt. 23 then goto say_playoffs
$ goto test_for_game
$new_month:
$ n_day = "1"
$test_for_game:
$ if n_day .lt. 10 then n_day = "0" + f$edit("''n_day'","collapse")
$ p1 = "''month'" + "-" + "''n_day'"
$ search 'file' 'p1'
$ count = count + 1
$ if count .le. P3 then goto next_day
$ goto done
$say_playoffs:
$ SAY "Playoffs due to start... schedule is TBD!!!"
$ goto done
$bad_reply:
$ Say "Invalid reply."
$ goto done
$ done:
$ set mess'Save_Message'
$ EXIT
NOV-05     New York           Friday     7:30
NOV-06  at Washington         Saturday   7:30
NOV-08     Milwaukee          Monday     7:30    
NOV-10  at Philadelphia       Wednesday  8:00
NOV-12     Charlotte          Friday     7:30
NOV-13  at Chicago            Saturday   8:30
NOV-17     New Jersey         Wednesday  7:30
NOV-19     Orlando            Friday     7:30
NOV-20  at Indiana            Saturday   7:30
NOV-22     Indiana            Monday     7:30      (at Hartford) 
NOV-24  at Detroit            Wednesday  7:30
NOV-26     Miami              Friday     7:30
NOV-27  at Milwaukee          Saturday   9:00
NOV-30  at Atlanta            Tuesday    7:30
DEC-01     Washington         Wednesday  7:30
DEC-03     Portland           Friday     7:30
DEC-07  at New Jersey         Tuesday    8:00
DEC-08     Sacramento         Wednesday  7:30 
DEC-10  at Orlando            Friday     7:30
DEC-11  at Miami              Saturday   7:30
DEC-13     Philadelphia       Monday     7:30
DEC-15     Chicago            Wednesday  7:30 
DEC-17     Utah               Friday     7:30
DEC-22     Atlanta            Wednesday  7:30
DEC-23  at Charlotte          Thursday   7:30 
DEC-26  at San Antonio        Sunday     8:30
DEC-27  at Phoenix            Monday     9:00
DEC-29  at Utah               Wednesday  9:00
DEC-30  at LA Clippers        Thursday  10:30
JAN-02     New Jersey         Sunday     7:00
JAN-05  at Cleveland          Wednesday  7:30
JAN-07     Cleveland          Friday     7:30
JAN-08  at Minnesota          Saturday   8:00
JAN-10  at Philadelphia       Monday     7:30
JAN-12     Houston            Wednesday  7:30
JAN-14     LA Clippers        Friday     8:00
JAN-16     Denver             Sunday     7:00 
JAN-18  at Houston            Tuesday    8:30
JAN-19  at Dallas             Wednesday  8:30
JAN-21     Golden State       Friday     7:30
JAN-24     Dallas             Monday     7:30
JAN-26     Miami              Wednesday  7:30
JAN-30     Phoenix            Sunday    12:30
FEB-01  at New York           Tuesday    7:30
FEB-02     Seattle            Wednesday  7:30
FEB-04     San Antonio        Friday     7:30
FEB-09     Detroit            Wednesday  7:30
FEB-15  at Orlando            Tuesday    7:30
FEB-17     New Jersey         Thursday   7:30       (at Hartford) 
FEB-19  at Golden State       Saturday  10:30
FEB-20  at Portland           Sunday    10:30
FEB-22  at Sacramento         Tuesday   10:30
FEB-23  at Denver             Wednesday  9:00 
FEB-25  at Seattle            Friday    10:00
FEB-27  at LA Lakers          Sunday    10:30
MAR-02     Cleveland          Wednesday  7:30
MAR-04     LA Lakers          Friday     8:00
MAR-07  at Miami              Monday     7:30 
MAR-11     New York           Friday     7:30
MAR-13     Miami              Sunday     7:00
MAR-14  at Charlotte          Monday     7:30
MAR-16     Chicago            Wednesday  7:30
MAR-19  at New York           Saturday 	 1:00
MAR-20     Atlanta            Sunday    12:00
MAR-24  at Washington         Thursday   7:30
MAR-27     Philadelphia       Sunday 	 2:30       (at Hartford) 
MAR-29  at Milwaukee          Tuesday    8:30
MAR-20     Indiana            Wednesday  7:30
APR-01     Washington         Friday     7:30
APR-03  at Philadelphia       Sunday     7:00
APR-05  at New Jersey         Tuesday    7:30
APR-06  at Atlanta            Wednesday  7:30
APR-08     Minnesota          Friday     7:30
APR-10  at Detroit            Sunday 	 1:00
APR-11  at Indiana            Monday     7:30
APR-13     Detroit            Wednesday  7:30
APR-15     Orlando            Friday     7:30
APR-17  at Washington         Sunday 	12:30
APR-19     Milwaukee          Tuesday    7:30
APR-19     Charlotte          Thursday   7:30 
APR-22  at Chicago            Friday     8:30
APR-24  at Cleveland          Sunday 	 3:30

    Reggie Lewis died last night. Lewis collapsed at Brandeis univeristy.
    Lewis was shooting baskets when he lost consciousness.
    
    

Needless to say, I was shocked to hear the news of Reggie.  Certainly, I 
didn't expect to hear such a thing prior to his actually playing the game.
For it to happen in a shoot-around makes you wonder how competent his 
doctor is.

There certainly will be a tremendous controversy in the coming weeks over
the medical opinions Reggie received.  The two most famous are the ones 
given by the initial team that had first treated him for the first "fainting"
spell.  This team had determined that he was at high risk.  Reggie and his
family then got a second opinion, after many tests, which resulted in his
feeling that he could play at the pro level again.  Naturally, Reggie wanted
to believe the good news.  We all tend to do that.

Now, I understand from radio reports that a third, unsolicited, opinion was
rendered by a doctor on the West coast who had just recently treated a college
player for a similar, if not identical, condition.  This player suffered a 
second attack and the doctor made a public statement that Reggie should NOT
return to the game and that he should be fitted with a defibrillator.

In any case, the city of Boston has lost a kind and gentle man, one who was
quite involved in community activities.  Obviously, his families loss is
greater.  His wife is pregnant with a second child.  May God look over her
and her children.

I understand that the reason the public announcement was so late, roughly 10:30
P.M., was that they were having a real problem contacting Reggie's mother, who
lives in the Baltimore area.  I know that Bob Lobel reported at 10:00 that
Reggie's wife had left the hospital about an hour earlier, which would make 
one think that the worst had happened, yet the official announcement kept
getting delayed.  Now, I understand why.  

Lee

Whata tragic loss.  I too am stunned.

John "Reggie=Celtic Pride)" R.

    I was and am still shocked.  RIP, Reggie.
    
    I was watching ESPN with the sound off (working up budget numbers for
    my new home) and saw Reggie Lewis' picture on the screen with 1965-1993
    under his face.
    
    I almost lost it.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

 Certainly not unexpected though. Knowing what happen to Hank should have
 been enough to scare him away despite what the doctors says. Still you
 can't fault him from trying. Ain't one of here who wants to hear he can't
 do something he loves with a passion. I'd have probably done the same
 thing if I was in his shoes. It's wasn't for the money, it was for the
 love of the game.

 Friend of mine's BIL workes at NE ans is a close friend of Reggie. He
 was talking to him him just sunday night as a matter of fact. Anyways
 one his story about Reggie's kindness was that he was the only Celtic
 to offer the ballboys rides home after games. 

 Guy worked so hard all his life and achieved all-star status, what a shame
 27 is just to young.

 R.I.P #35 we'll miss ya badly

 mike  

    It's not too often that tears come to my eyes when hearing about
    someone I don't personally know passing away, but this is one time 
    they came.
    
    					Steve
    

    
    Along with Clemente, the saddest story I have ever heard from the
    sports world.  RIP Reggie Lewis.
    
    glenn
    

Got home in time for the SportsCenter after the ball game - about 1:30AM.
Heard the news about Lewis and needed to hear it a second time before
actually believing it. A real shock.

Most of you know my opinions of the Boston media but they have been
handling this tragedy in a professional and sensitive way.

I wonder if they will be able to determine if shooting baskets caused his
death or if a simple stroll on the street would have also caused it.

The Crazy Met

I was shocked.

Somehow my brother knew at 9:30 PM, because he called me.  Whether he was
on Prodigy in the sports-wire or what I don't know.   

I really can't remember a year where so many sports figures have died so
young.  Okay, you expect to hear about a couple former baseball players
or football players who pass away at 85, silently in their sleep, but
this year so many have died in their prime.....


'Tis a truly sad day (yet again),
'Saw

    I never listen to sports-talk radio but I did after I heard the
   news about Reggie last night while I was at the gym. Every host
   and every caller had a "what a nice guy Reggie is" story. And 
   more than anything, more than as the best player to ever come 
   out of Northeastern, more than as the captain of the Celtics,
   it's as a genuinely nice, good person that Reggie will be re-
   membered. This is a tragedy of gargantuan proportions for every
   one who had even a passing acquaintance with the man.

    this  is unbelievable!!!! I still am stunned. I could not believe this
    had happened when I heard the news last night......Another year with a
    black patch on the uni's.......This season will not be same. I hope his
    wife and family stay strong.
    
    jeff
    

        
> Most of you know my opinions of the Boston media but they have been
> handling this tragedy in a professional and sensitive way.
    
    Obviously you have not read that idiot Dan Shaughnessy's column in
    today's Globe (which I just did).  Not only is my initial inclination 
    to disagree with about 90% of what he's said, but I find it a premature, 
    speculative, unprofessional, insensitive, sensationalistic capitalization 
    on a tragedy of almost unspeakable proportions.  It's just too bad that 
    Dan couldn't have waited even 24 hours before cashing in.
    
    glenn
     

>    Obviously you have not read that idiot Dan Shaughnessy's column in
>    today's Globe (which I just did).  Not only is my initial inclination 
>    to disagree with about 90% of what he's said, but I find it a premature, 
>    speculative, unprofessional, insensitive, sensationalistic capitalization 
>    on a tragedy of almost unspeakable proportions.  It's just too bad that 
>    Dan couldn't have waited even 24 hours before cashing in.
>    
>    glenn

Glenn, 

Could you clip that column and send it to me (mail stop RCH-2B/10) or
at my home address?

As you know I'm kind of a student of sportswriting and something in me
tells me I should read this column.....


thanks,
'Saw
     

    Loosen up those fingers Waugamain and type the article in, ya lazy bum. 
    
    Also, could someone recap the scenario that involved the C's doctor
    (don't play?), Reggie's doctor (play), and the 3rd opinion he received. 
    And also what was the Celtics position on Reggie - were they gonna let
    him play, or had they effectively cut him from the roster.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

Unfortunately, the whole scenario with Reggie Lewis was/is a sad one.

In a nutshell (I'm sure people [read MAC] will correct me if I'm wrong), after
Reggie's collapse in the playoffs, he landed in New England Baptist Hospital.
This in one of the several hospitals in "hospital circle" in Boston, generally
recognized as one of the better medical areas in the world.  The Celtics 
assembled a "Dream Team" of physicians, led by Dr. Estes.  They concluded that 
Reggie suffered from a heart condition (with a name about three inches long), 
and that Reggie should not play ball again.  The doctors were apparently lacking
in bedside manner and Reggie's wife, Donna, felt alienated.  She convinced 
Reggie to check himself out of Baptist and go across the street to Brigham and
Women's Hospital, where she had some ties (I beleive she once worked there).

It was at B&W where Reggie hooked up with Dr. Mudge and his crew, who ran
their own battery of tests, and concluded that Reggie suffered from a 
fainting condition, that could be regulated with medication.  Dr. Mudge and 
Reggie held a news conference and announced this.

During this time the Celtics were strangly quiet on the subject.  They kind
of said "well if the doctors say he is OK, we guess he si OK".  Then, a couple
weeks ago, a doctor from California (?) cited a case similar to Reggie, where
his patient returned to playing basketball recreationally, and suffered a 
massive heart attack, but lived.  He claimed it served as a warning to Reggie,
and his patient made a similar statement.

It is a shame to lose a great basketball player, and great member of the 
community like Reggie Lewis this way.

RIP #35

  Actually, Chris, it's a pretty long article. The jist of it is Shaugnessy
 raking Dr, Mudge, the doc who cleared reggie to play, and the 'Tics over the
 coals. He implies that Mudge thought he was "the smartest man in the world"
 and basically calls the Celtics organization spineless for not stopping Reggie.
 Maybe Dan is just overly emotional about this or maybe he's having a bad day.
 I'd hate to think that all of that animus is just staged.

  A basic synopsis of the events involving the interplay among the doctors goes
 something like this:

       Reggie collapses.

       The Celts doctor, who is an Orthopedic man, believe it is a heart
       problem and calls in several cardiac specialists - the now famous
       "Dream Team".

       After ten days of tests the DT states that Reggie has an arrythmic
       heart beat caused by a mediacl condition that I can't spell and he 
       should not ever play b-ball again.

       In the middle of the night Reggie leaves New England Baptist Hospital
       for Brigham&Women's Hospital. The reason given was that Reggie and his 
       wife like the doctors and the 'Tics were leaving Reggie and his wife out
       of the loop.

       Reggie's doctor at B&W clears Reggie to play after three days of tests
       when he declares that Reggie merely has a fainting condition.

    I'm still stunned as well.  I didn't hear/see the news until I passed a
    news stand on campus this morning.  My heart sank when I saw the
    headlines.
    
    The NBA's most successful franchise sure has been snakebit the last 6
    years.  Bias, Bird, and now Reggie...
    
    Mike

    
    
    I've read Shaughnessy a number of times on a number of different
    issues, and one thing that always, always comes through is that he is 
    passionate in his views, whether the issue is Butch Hobson and the Red
    Sox or Dave Gavitt and the Celtics.
    
    What I got from the article was that the Celtics never took a position
    on Reggie's health and his status on the team once Reggie "stepped over
    the line" and got the second opinion from Mudge. What Shaughnessy was
    trying to say is that they should have, and that position should have
    been that Reggie should not play.
    
    I honestly do not think that he was making capital on this tragedy. He
    obviously believes that Mudge and the Celtics bear some of the blame
    for what is a senseless death of a decent young man. He believes that
    Mudge was motivated by ego and the Celtics by fear of litigation.
    
    I can sense a rathole coming on this one. I certainly hope that's not
    the case.
    
    
    

    Time table is somewhat incorrect a couple of notes back.
    
    Reggie was in New England Baptist with the "Dream Team" for three
    days, then snuck over to Brigham and Women's for seven days before
    Dr. Mudge came up with his diagnosis.
    
    NAZZ

    A damn shame. A great loss. As has been stated, Reggie seemed like
    a truly nice guy. My prayers for his family and friends.
    
    I know we'll be seeing all sorts of accusatory fingers being pointed
    this way or that way, and it all won't bring Reggie back. I just
    have one simple question for all the doctors. After two separate
    different diagnosis, why couldn't both "teams" convene to compare
    notes? After all, from what I understand, these types of diagnoses
    are not pure black and white, there's plenty of room for
    interpretation.  
    
    MikeL
    

    Maybe they have some information we don't, but the thing that I don't
    understand about this tragedy is a segment of the media's (including
    Shaughnessy's) reaction *already* towards the Celtics as a cold-hearted 
    bottom-line organization that could not have cared less about Reggie 
    Lewis, and which was only interested in its own liability at the same 
    time it was all too willing to have Lewis come back of his own volition 
    in the face of evidence that suggested he shouldn't.  This does not seem 
    to be at all in line with the facts of the case, which include Celtics 
    team doctor Arnold Scheller publicly announcing very early on that Lewis' 
    career was likely over, a recommendation initially supported by 
    preliminary tests conducted by an expert medical team assembled at the 
    team's behest, before those tests were aborted and left incomplete at
    Lewis' request.  At that time, there was no attempt to cover up Lewis' 
    condition for publicity purposes in the event that his career could 
    resume-- in fact, to the contrary, everyone involved with the case at 
    that point was very up front that the resumption of Lewis' basketball 
    career was a very secondary issue.
    
    Okay, so maybe the Celtics team doctor and the original medical team
    did not exercise the greatest personal compassion for Lewis and his
    family as they conducted their business in the wake of Lewis' initial
    collapse (which is apparently why Lewis chose to seek his own medical
    attention).  In my admittedly limited experience with hospitals this 
    is the norm and is the way that medical professionals generally work
    with people, especially adults-- but the important thing is still that 
    they get the diagnosis right!  There seemed to every effort expended 
    to do so...
    
    After Lewis received his own clearance to play, I perceived the Celtics' 
    silent endorsement of Lewis' decision to be one of respect for Lewis 
    more than anything at that very early stage, while again, some media 
    observers chose to see duplicity around liability issues.  Consider 
    the circumstances-- Reggie Lewis had not yet participated in a single 
    organized practice nor had he been monitored medically during or after 
    any workouts (and with his absence at the rookie camp there appeared to 
    be some lingering doubts in his own mind).  This is the time, without 
    a solid reason to dispute Lewis' physician Dr. Mudge's findings, to 
    publicly divorce themselves from Lewis' desire to play again?  Who can 
    know what would have transpired, when Lewis collapsed again and died 
    before barely even breaking a sweat for the first time since the
    original incident?    
    
    I sincerely hope that what I've been hearing in the media (even
    before the tragedy occurred, when Reggie didn't show at the rookie camp) 
    is just another example where if they aren't given full and complete 
    access to an issue or a story (for some very good personal reasons), 
    it's their job to assume the worst in all people and run with that 
    premise.  Or at least maybe I want to believe that that's what might 
    happen at the surface with some of the shallower media outlets, and 
    the core media will be respectful so that this won't deteriorate into 
    an ugly, irrational public witchhunt.  Too much to ask? 
    
    glenn
    

re: .102

I'm generally a skeptic when it comes to these things, but in this case I 
generally agree with Glenn.  The Celtics were between a rock and a hard 
place on this one.  They couldn't very well state that they did not want
Reggie on the team, since that would likely have a devastating effect on
his recovery, and bitterness and public outcry agains them.  They had 
doctors saying he was all right, and the ball was in Reggie's court to seek 
further advice, which he chose not to do.  Not too many options.  The media is 
looking for a story, what a surprise...

I'm still greatly saddened at the passing of a rare, admirable professional
athlete.

=Bob=

My guees is that Reggie Lewis body was a ticking time bomb that was going to go
off when it wanted to. Despite all the technology and medical advances made in
the past 100 years there is still more that doctors don't know about the human
body than they do know.

I said this when he recieved conflicting diagnosis and I'll say it again.
Doctors can never be 100% sure as to what the problem is unless they can
diagnose the situation right when it happens. It's like having an intermittant
failure in your car and getting mad at the mechanic when he can't figure out
what it is.

The only thing Reggie could have done was erred on the side of caution and
retired in hopes that less physical stress would prolong his life. 

Either way no amount of finger pointing or scathing articles or lawsuits is
going to bring him back...I just hope he gets to play ball in the hereafter...


Metz

	Gavitt runs the team, he doesn't own it.  If the owners' lawyers 
decided the team should've washed their hands and avoid legal responsibility 
with regards to the Reggie Lewis situation, and the owners agreed, then Dave 
Gavitt either went along or he's gone.  The sad fact is that in this litigious
society everybody practices CYA which is why the Celtics were so neutral on 
the issue and probably why Lewis didn't participate in the Celtics' rookie 
training camp.

	With regards to the doctors pooling their tests results together 
and trying to arrive at a common conclusion, get real.  The only thing 
that's larger than these guys' salaries is their egos, and remember two 
different hospitals were involved also.  Despite the fact that it's 
beneficial to the patient, it just ain't going to happen.  I said at the 
time that Reggie should've sought a third opinion, but he chose to believe 
the diagnosis that he wanted to hear.  Most of us would've probably done 
the same if we were in his shoes.  2020Hindsight can always prevent the 
unwanted from happening.  All the whatifs in the world can't bring Reggie 
Lewis back, but it will not stop a cadre of lawyers from trying to make a 
bundle of money off this tragedy.

	The counter to Dan Shaughnessy's column was an excellent piece by 
Jackie MacMullan.

				/Don

    I'd also like to think that Gavitt and Co. have a conscience.  I would
    have a real hard time taking a stand on either side of the issue.  I
    would certainly have a hard time being forced to make a decision on a
    person's life and career (and for some people life and career are the
    same thing).

    .102
    
    My point is that Shaughnessy reacted more like a fan than a journalist
    in this case. He was obviously angry at Reggie's death. I may be naive,
    but I don't feel he was doing anything but expressing that anger.
    
    You're right, the Celtics were caught between a rock and a hard place.
    Consider their options when Lewis gets the second opinion which allowed
    him to continue to play in the NBA.
    
    They could have (and did) publicly embrace the second opinion while
    privately harboring doubts, and doing nothing to monitor the progress
    of Reggie and, apparently, doing nothing further to clarify the
    diagnosis. They were probably guilty of nothing more than any of us
    were: Glad to put an ugly incident behind us and hope that the guy was
    going to be OK.
    
    They could have said, "We're sorry, but we're not convinced that you're
    well enough to play." This most likely would have been extremely
    unpopular with the fans and probably would have resulted in a fairly
    good sized lawsuit. It also might have been misinterpreted as pure
    ass-covering by a lot of people. Whether or not it would have actually
    had any affect on prolonging Reggie's life seems doubtful, given what
    we've heard about the fact that he wasn't really exerting himself at
    all at the time he passed away.
    
    
    

I heard on the radio this AM that Reggie HAD gotten a third opinion from 
a doctor on the West Coast who agreed that he could play.

Anyone else here of this?  If true, it obviously wasn't the same doctor out 
there who treated that college player who had a second attack.



How can the Celtics be held responsible?  If two teams of "expert" doctors
can't agree, how can a group of business men decide a medical issue?  I, too,
feel that the so-called teams should have gotten together and asked how 
there conclusions could vary so greatly.  Like, "Okay, what test results led
you to believe that Reggie (could, shouldn't) play?  Here are the tests, and
their results, which led us to believe just the opposite.  Can we work on this
and reach a consensus?"

Perhaps that's too simplistic, but the final responsibility came down to Reggie,
as he was medically capable of making a decision which affected HIS life.  By that,
I mean that he wasn't deemed mentally unable to make decisions.  He put his
trust and faith in someone and that someone was wrong, for whatever reason.

I also heard that Reggie had found out that his wife was pregnant on that very 
same day.

Lee

    	Lee, this is the 90's.  One of the local stations last night had on
    some "legal scholar" saying how an athlete can't be held responsible
    for decisions he makes because he's under so much pressure.  This
    typifies a lawyers view of society, the "victim syndrome".  Everybody
    is a victim and the victimizer is anyone with deep pockets.
    
    	Personally I would hope that once Reggie is laid to rest his memory
    will not be dragged through a legal morass, because he was a great guy. 
    But every lawyer with an angle will try to get somebody who was
    involved with Reggie into some kind of suit.  I would be pleasantly
    shocked if this were not to happen.
    
    				/Don

    	If it hasn't been said, I'll say it:
    
    		Medicine is not an exact science
    
    	I agree with the previous note that suggested that the
    	Dream Team and Mudge and Crew should have gotten together.
    
    	Also, as the cardiologist of the fella who collapsed in
    	California said, he'd rather err on the side of life.
    
    	Look at Reggie's predicament:
    
    		He's playing NBA basketball
    		He's captain of the Celtics
    		He's got family responsibilities
    		He's only 27 years old
    		He's has no real occupation or training for anything
    			outside of basketball (I'm assuming here)
    
    	That's one tough decision for anyone.
    
    	It's a really sad situation. From all accounts, one very fine
    	person dead way too soon.
    
    	Scott

    	Oh, yeah. I hate to say it, but I can seem some lawyers
    	getting their sticky fingers into this tragedy and making
    	an even bigger mess.
    
    	Sad about Mudge, too. As I said, medicine is not an exact
    	science.
    
    	Scott

My brother, who works with doctors every day, has a saying that always
makes me stop and think:


	"Just remember," he says, "that half of all doctors finished
	 in the bottom half of their class in medical school"


Along with that, whoever said medicine is not an exact science is right.
Sometimes you do everything right and the patients still die.


'Saw

    Who were the top 5 players in the Atlantic division last year?
    
    Ewing, NY - C
    O'Neal - Orlando - C
    Coleman, NJ -F
    Lewis - Boston G
    Petrovic - NJ -G
    
    Two of them are gone. Shocking! Tragedies have seemed to happen in
    pairs this year.
    
    Racing drivers Kulwicki and Allison
    Dodgers Drysdale and Campy

    Here is where I fault the Celtics (not Dave Gavitt, but Cohen and
    Gaston, the owners):  They provided no follow-up care for Reggie.  
    They did not oversee his progress.  They did not provide him with a
    nurse, physician, or anyone or conduct a regimen that would allow
    him to return to the NBA.  Any other kind of injury, teams are all
    over their players to follow a specific rehabilitation process.
    Where was that in this case?  The truth is, the owners distanced
    themselves from Reggie because they were afraid of the liability
    issues.  And that to me is a tragedy.
    
    Ed Pinckney injures his knee.  The Celtics supervise the rehab work
    for him, get regular evaluations, adjust his program as needed.
    Where was this for Reggie?  Eight years ago, when Cedric Maxwell would
    not do exactly what the Celtics wanted (in effect, tried to set up
    his own rehab program), the Celtics traded his ass.  In Reggie's case,
    they ignored him.  What sense does that make?????
    
    FWIW, the "Dream Team" doctors were offered an opportunity to examine
    Dr. Mudge's findings a week after he announced his diagnosis.  They
    were instructed by the Celtics to respectfully decline.  Why??????
    If Reggie's health was of primary importance to Cohen and Gaston, why
    wouldn't they have insisted on all the doctors getting together,
    comparing notes, and setting up a specific, detailed rehab program
    for Reggie?
    
    NAZZ

    And there lies the conspiracy.
    
    Lee

    
     7/30 Friday night.. Sports Channel 7:30pm  Reggie Special half hour
    long  Will play again on Sunday night sametime...
    
     Please Check your local listing to comfirm these times..
     My Info came from 105.7 radio FM.

	Well NAZZ, a few weeks ago either Jackie or Peter May had a column 
in the Sunday Globe postulating that the Celtics backed off from Reggie the 
minute he sought a second opinion because their lawyers counseled them to 
do so.  Apparently at that point Gaston's and Cohen's lawyers felt the team 
was absolved from any legal responsibility with regards to Reggie's 
condition.  What's legal isn't always what's ethical.  The team should've 
repsected Reggie's wish for a second opinion then encouraged/coerced the 
two sides to compare notes and possibly even counsel Reggie to seek a 
third opinion.  They should've stayed actively involved in the process and 
not the course they chose of CYA.  Would Reggie be alive today had this 
happened?  Who knows, but the way the team acted towards Reggie the last 
few months sent a strong message to the rest of the Celtics "family".

				/Don

    I was out yesterday... so from my timetable flipping around...
    
    7:15: I had a softball game, flipped on WEEI and they talked about
          his collapse and he was in "very critical condition"
    
    7:30-7:45ish... Guy from WEEI says new conference coming in a few
    minutes.  Says ML is around, Myers says he needs to talk to him.
    (I think he was confirming off the air that he was gone).
    
    no news conference held until Reggie's mother is notified.
    
    8:00 sighting of a priest and a medical examiner
    
    9:20 ESPN announces "unnamed sources have confirmed he has past away" 
    
    9:30 Channel 5 announces what ESPN reported.
    
    10:20 official news conference.
    
    BTW, New England News Channel was great with their coverage.  No one
    else really kept up with it besides WEEI.
    

    
    > Any other kind of injury, teams are all
    > over their players to follow a specific rehabilitation process.
    > Where was that in this case?  The truth is, the owners distanced
    > themselves from Reggie because they were afraid of the liability
    > issues.  And that to me is a tragedy.
    >  
    > FWIW, the "Dream Team" doctors were offered an opportunity to examine
    > Dr. Mudge's findings a week after he announced his diagnosis.  They
    > were instructed by the Celtics to respectfully decline.  Why??????
     
    I don't know what was going on behind the scenes, but I've been left
    with the impression that when Lewis signed himself out of the Baptist
    hospital, the Celtics and their team of doctors were no longer legally
    permitted to take part in his medical care without his permission.  Is
    this true?  Up until the time that Lewis left, were the Celtics indeed
    *insisting* that they take care of all medical arrangements (as with Ed
    Pinckney's knee, etc.)?  To me, at least up until that point, it seemed 
    as if they were doing everything humanly possible, without trying to
    protect only their own interests, even though the emerging diagnosis
    appeared to be that Lewis should never play again.  How much can you do
    when that medical care is in essence refused by the individual?  This 
    is why I don't see the later lack of participation by the Celtics so 
    much as a liability issue, but also an ethical one.  If told to back 
    off, should they?  Now we're hearing about independent third parties 
    already being involved, and the possibility that until the issue was 
    resolved that Lewis would not have been allowed to participate in 
    Celtics' practices.  We just don't have the details yet, and it's 
    premature to point fingers in any direction, in my mind... 
    
    In the larger human picture, yes, I too see this as possibly a very
    preventable tragedy if the world were totally free of constraint and
    information flowed qucikly and completely without hindrance for any 
    reason, and in that sense that this happened is sad and it hurts.  But 
    I am not yet able to say that in our real world there is anyone to 
    blame, or that given Reggie's choice for the course his future would 
    take that there would have been any other result within reasonable 
    responses from all external parties to his decisions.  Again, it's 
    really too early to say for sure, but that's my initial inclination-- 
    that the Celtics and their doctors were being respectful of Reggie's 
    decision as he attempted to resolve the medical issues in his own way, 
    by his own choice.  Unfortunately, Lewis died long before the point 
    anyone thought the hard choices would have to be made.
    
    glenn
    

    re: Mac
    
    No, there's no conspiracy here.  This is no HankGathers case, and
    here's why:
    
    As somebody who's shot baskets just about all my life I can accurately
    report that it's about as strenuous as a walk around the block.  Your
    ticker ain't goin' like a rabbit (i.e. PaulWesthaid wasn't the coach).
    The guy was *shooting baskets*.  He could just as easily have dropped
    dead getting out of bed or walking into the shower.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.tw.health
Subject: Debate heats up over death of Celtics star Reggie Lewis
Keywords: obituary, basketball, men's professional, cardiovascular, health
Message-ID: <us-lewisUR63a_3lS@clarinet.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 19:33:35 PDT
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Note: (complete writethru -- updating; celtics demanded 3rd opinion)
Lines: 74
 
	BOSTON (UPI) -- Words of praise poured in Wednesday for Boston Celtics
star Reggie Lewis as a debate intensified over whether his death from a
heart attack was avoidable and if the doctor who told him he could play
-- despite warnings not to -- was negligent.
	Lewis, 27, died of cardiac arrest Tuesday night following a light
workout shooting baskets at Brandeis University in suburban Waltham as
he prepared for the upcoming season.
	An autopsy was conducted Wednesday by a state medical examiner, but
the results were not expected to be made public for several days.
	Three months ago, after Lewis collapsed during a playoff game, a team
of heart specialists told him he was suffering from a heart problem that
threatened his life and career and that he should retire.
	Lewis, however, sought a second opinion and was told by Brigham and
Women's Hospital cardiologist Dr. Gilbert Mudge that he did not have a
heart problem and could resume the activity level required by a
professional basketball player.
	Boston television station WLVI, Channel 56, reported Wednesday night
that the Celtics had told Lewis he must obtain a third opinion from
another panel of physicians before he would be allowed to return to the
team.
	``They wanted all the bases covered before they allowed him to play,''
said sportscaster Michael Barkann, quoting team sources.
	Mudge has not been available for comment since Lewis' death, but the
hospital issued a statement Wednesday saying it was ``deeply saddened''
but that it ``would be premature at this time to make any further
comments.''
	About 90 minutes before Lewis collapsed, Mudge had told Boston Globe
sportswriter Will McDonough that Lewis was ``doing fine'' and ``working
out at his own pace'' getting ready for the season.
	Lewis collapsed around 5 p.m. and witnesses said they saw him on his
back ``gasping for air.'' He was pronounced dead about 7:30 p.m. at the
nearby Waltham-Weston Hospital.
	Members of the Celtics family and others described Lewis Wednesday as
not just a great athlete, but a ``great human being.''
	``This is a time of incredible grief,'' said Dave Gavitt, the senior
executive vice president of the Celtics.
	NBA Commissioner David J. Stern issued a statement Wednesday saying
the Celtics and the league ``have lost a bright, talented member of our
family.''
	``Away from the court, he was an outstanding young man who always
made the NBA, the Celtics and the city of Boston proud to be associated
with him,'' Stern said.
	Lewis is survived by his wife Donna and 10-month-old son, Reginald
Jr. His wife is pregnant with their second child. Lewis played high
school basketball at Dunbar in Baltimore, where his mother, Inez, lives.
	Lewis averaged a team-high 20.8 points per game each of the last two
years. He was the team's first-round draft pick in 1987, 22nd overall,
out of Northeastern University.
	The Celtics said funeral arrangements were incomplete.
	Medical malpractice experts said the major potential liability in the
case rests with the doctor Lewis relied upon to resume his career. If
that decision turns out to be medically incorrect and a substantial
contributing cause of Lewis' death, ``there could be a potential claim
for negligence,'' one expert said.
	Hank Gathers of Loyola Marymount, who led the NCAA in scoring and
rebounding in 1989, collapsed during a game March 4, 1990 and died of
cardiomyopathy. The university and one of the doctors who treated
Gathers for his heart problems settled a civil suit for about $1.5
million.
	After Lewis collapsed during Boston's 112-101 victory over the
Charlotte Hornets April 29, he underwent a series of tests at New
England Baptist Hospital. A group of heart specialists put together by
the Celtics advised him to retire.
	Lewis checked himself out and underwent another battery of tests at
Brigham & Women's Hospital. There Mudge gave Lewis the go-ahead to
resume his professional basketball career.
	Mudge determined that Lewis had a normal athlete's heart with normal
function and said he was ``quite optimistic'' that Lewis could resume
his pro career ``without limitation under medical supervision.''
	Despite the findings of the team of specialists, Mudge said there was
no evidence that Lewis had any form of cardiomyopathy or life-
threatening arrhythmia, but determined that the Celtics' star suffered
from neurocardiogenic syncope, an abnormal response of the heart rate
and blood pressure which can occur during peak exercise.

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.tw.health
Subject: Celtics star sought third opinion
Keywords: obituary, basketball, men's professional, cardiovascular, health
Message-ID: <us-lewisUR563_3lT@clarinet.com>
References: <us-lewisUR7c1_3lS@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 5:09:30 PDT
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Note: (adding details, background)
Lines: 36
 
	BOSTON (UPI) -- Boston Celtics captain Reggie Lewis, who died Tuesday
night of a heart attack, had sought a third opinion from heart
specialists in California to resolve a debate over whether he would be
able to play again.
	One of those cardiologists agreed with Boston Dr. Gilbert Mudge that
Lewis was suffering only from a benign fainting condition, and not the
more threatening heart problem that another team of doctors initially
diagnosed.
	California Dr. William Stevenson said in Thursday's Boston Globe,
however, he felt Lewis should be monitored during physical exertion to
catch an episode and determine the diagnosis.
	Mudge had also made the same recommendation, but had given Lewis the
green-light to resume physical activities.
	Lewis, 27, collapsed and suffered a fatal heart attack on Tuesday
night while shooting baskets at Brandeis University in Waltham as he
began his preparations for the upcoming season. He was not being
monitored at the time.
	Reports said the Celtics had told Lewis he would need a third opinion
from another team of doctors before they would allow him to rejoin the
team.
	An autopsy was performed Wednesday, but the results were not expected
to be released for at least several days.
	Lewis was initially diagnosed with a potentially life-threatening
heart problem after collapsing during a playoff game at Boston Garden
three months ago. But another team of doctors led by Mudge said at the
time he was in no danger and could resume his career.
	Police have placed a 24-hour guard at the Sherborne home of Dr.
Mudge, who reportedly has received some death threats since Lewis'
death. Mudge reportedly is ``heartbroken'' over the death of the Celtics
star He has made no public comment.
	Mudge remained in seclusion, and friends asked the news media outside
his home to leave him alone. There has been much speculation that Mudge
may eventually be named in a medical malpractice suit because he gave
Lewis permission to resume physical exertion.
	Funeral services for Lewis were expected to be announced later
Thursday.

    Anyone see Nightline lasted night?  Had Dr. Tim Johnson, Dan
    McShaugnessy and Terry Cummings on talking about it.  Included 
    "Can you make a competitve athlete stop playing legally?"
    "Should the Celtics have done more or different things to prevent
    this?"
    "What happens next time?"

    I am sick and tired of the comparisons made between Reggie and Hank
    Gathers.  Gathers was placed on medication after his first incident,
    and secretly began weaning himself off the medication.  He felt that
    he was not playing as well on the medication, and was risking the
    loss of millions of dollars by playing poorly in his senior season,
    just before the NBA draft.  His family was dirt poor and they viewed
    him as their meal ticket out of the ghetto, and let him know that in no
    uncertain terms.  
    
    So Gathers was feeling pressure to perform better from his family, and
    an inner pressure to succeed to obtain a lucrative NBA contract. 
    Reggie was under no such pressure.
    
    Also, it needs to be stated that his death did NOT occur from his
    desire to return to the NBA.  It was NOT at an NBA practice, scrimmage,
    or game.  It was NOT at an informal, full-blown workout.  It took place
    when Reggie was shooting baskets, with another person retrieving the
    ball for him.  He was not even getting rebounds!  Whether he decided to
    return to the NBA or permanently retire is IRRELAVENT to how and when
    he died.  Although it is richly poetic that he died on a basketball
    court, it would have made issues a lot clearer if it occurred while he
    was out rescuing a cat from a tree or something.
    
    NAZZ
    

      re: .122
    
      One thing that occured to me is that maybe Reggie's adrenaline
      could have been sky high.  I mean, I've had times where I was
      anticipating something where I was real nervous like giving a
      talk or awaiting a job interview - whatever.  During those times,
      with the anxiety, I've had some adrenaline rushes from nervous-
      ness.
    
      Now here's a guy who may have been about to play some basketball
      for the very first time.  We know now he had some doubts.  We know
      that he knew what the possibilities were if those doubts were true.
      If I was Reggie Lewis shooting a couple baskets, having some
      doubts, and knowing I was deciding to have a friendly little
      scrimmage in a little bit...I don't know, just from anxiety there 
      could have been one adrenaline rush.
    
      This is just so sad.
    
                                                    Tony

It's way too late for finger-pointing. I subscribe to the New Orleans approach
to a friend's passing - lift a glass (or 4) in his honor and show your respect
by following his example of civilized behavior.

Can anyone doubt that there are Leprechauns in Beantown? Two consecutive first
round draft choices dead by the flukiest of occurances. I hope the bill for all 
those rings is paid now, Mr. L, and you'll go back to tipping in last second 
shots....

josh

    Reprinted without permission from today's Boston Globe:
    
    AFTER 30 YEARS OF GLORY, 7 YEARS OF DOWNERS by Bob Ryan
    
    Whatever happened to the Midas Touch?
    
    For 30 years, the Boston Celtics seemed mystically blessed.  From the
    moment Red Auerbach managed to hornswaggle Bil Russell out of the
    clutches of both St. Louis and Cincinnati, to the sounding of the buzzer
    to signal championship #16 on that glorious June Sunday afternoon in
    1986, the Boston Celtics were the one American sports franchise that
    always seemed to do the right thing and always seemed to be smarter and
    luckier than all others.
    
    And now?
    
    Is there some sort of biblical retribution taking place?  That's one
    explanation for what has happened during the last seven years,
    culminating in the unspeakably horrible death of 27-year-old Reggie
    Lewis, dead of cardiac arrest under troubling circumstances.
    
    Consider all that went right during those giddy 30 years:
    
    1) Auewrbach recognizes Russell is the answer to his prayers and
    maneuvers to secure his draft rights.  As good as Auerbach suspected
    Russell might be, the gifted warrior from San Francisco turned out to
    be immesurably better.  America has never produced a more important
    team sports athlete.
    
    2) Drafting ninth and last in the 1962 first round, AUerbach picks John
    Havlicek of Ohio State.  Havlicek was the Ed McMahon to Jerry Lucas'
    Johnny Carson in college, but he turned out to be one of the handful of
    all-time basketball demigods as a professional.
    
    3) Auerbach listens to the advice of his players (Tom Heinsohn among
    them) and picks up a Los Angeles Laker discard named Don Nelson, who
    becomes the consummate role player, good enough to participate in five
    championships and have his #19 raised to the rafters.
    
    4) Auerbach schemes to extract a Kansas guard named Jo Jo White from
    the draft (Uncle Sam's not Walter Kennedy's), getting him into the
    Marine reserves.  He thus gets the second-best player available in the
    1969 draft (the best was a tall kid named Lew Alcindor) at #9.  Jo Jo
    plays on two title teams and gets his #10 up there with the other Celtic
    immortals.
    
    5) Auerbach takes an undersized Florida State center by the name of
    Dave Cowens, and the redhead overachieves to a staggering level as he
    becomes the backbone of two championship teams and the focal point of
    an attendance surge that contnues to this day.
    
    6) Auerbach drafts three signed NBA players in 1970.  Once is Charlie
    Scott, and Auerbach uses his NBA draft rights to secure Paul Silas from
    Phoenix two years later.
    
    7) Auerbach uses the first of two 1978 frist round draft picks to take
    a junior-eligible from Indiana State named Larry Bird.
    
    8) Auerbach trades the first and 13th picks in the 2980 draft for
    Robert Parish and the third choice in the draft, who becomes Kevin
    McHale.
    
    9) Danny Ainge tells the basketball world that he will stay with
    baseball, but Auerbach takes him in the second rouns of the 1982 draft
    anyway, and goes to court to get his man.  Ainge becomes a valued
    Celtic.
    
    10) Auerbach trades disgruntled Cedric Maxerll to the LA Clippers fo
    rthe fragile Bill Walton.  Walton couldn't practice in either uniform,
    but for the 1985-86 Celtics, Walton plays in 80 games and practices
    every day.  He wins the NBA's Sixth Man Award.
    
    The result of all this maneuvering and finagling, just plain smart
    thinking, and a lot of luck, was 16 titles in 30 years.
    
    Since then?
    
    1) Auerbach drafts Maryland forward Len Bias in 1986.  Within 18 hours,
    the great young prospect is dead of "cocaine intoxication."
    
    2) Walton is injured, allegedly while riding an exercise bike.  He only
    plays in six regular season games, and is a totally ineffective player
    in the '87 playoffs, after which he never plays again.
    
    3) Scott Wedman, a key member of the 1986 title team, plays only six
    more games as a Celtic because of a heel injury.
    
    4) Larry Bird requires double heel surgery and plays a mere six games
    during the 1988-89 season.
    
    5) Brian Shaw, a promising young guard, bolts the team for Italy after
    the 1988-89 season and is never the same after his return.
    
    6) Auerbach spurns Tim Hardaway, Shawn Kemp, and B.J. Armstrong, among
    others, to draft forward Michael Smith in 1989 with the 13th pick in the
    draft.
    
    7) Bird encounters severe back problems, eventually undergoing surgery. 
    He is forced to retire prematurely in the summer of 1992.
    
    8) Dee Brown, fresh from an exhilarating playoff performance against
    Detroit in 1991, injures his knee in practice just before the start of
    the 1991-92 season.  He has not returned to his pre-injury form.
    
    9) After struggling for five years with a variety of foot and ankle
    problems, McHale is forced to retire following the 1992-93 season.
    
    10) Reggie Lewis, team captain and one of the NBA's bright stars,
    collapses during a 1993 playoff game.  Amid much conflicting medical
    opinion, he attempts to resume his career and collapses during a benign
    workout.  Three hours later, he is dead.
    
    During the glory years, a standard joke around the NBA was that a
    friendly leprechaun resided in Boston Garden.  He influenced their
    thinking, and he even took an active part in games, knocking away the
    big shots (e.g., Frank Selvy in 1962, Michael Jordan in 1986).  These
    jokes are not heard any longer.
    
    The Celtics have tried desperately to change the recent course of
    history.  The brought in Dave Gavitt, a brilliant administrator and
    acknowledged basketball savant, to run the day-to-day operations of the
    team.  But after three years on the job, it seems to him that all he
    ever does is hold press conferences to discuss the latest dose of bad
    news.
    
    They have platoons of scouts.  They work ceaselessly to improve the
    team.  They have pursued every logical course of action.  They have
    spent untold millions of dollars.  Yet the fact is that each time there
    appears to be a step forward, something sets them back. 
    
    Lewis' death is the worst setback of all.  Losing Bird hurt, sure, but
    injuries are an occupational hazard, and Bird left behind three
    championships and special memories.  Quite aside from losing Reggie's
    20 points a game and clutch shooting, the Celtics have lost a very
    close friend, and it will not be a simple matter for them to go on next
    season.  No one really knew Len Bias here, but Reggie Lewis was true
    family.  He was like a brother, be it older or younger, to everyone on
    the team, and he was always a calming presence.  He was, above all,
    RELIABLE, in both a professional and personal sense.  It will be very
    difficult for the Kevin Gambles and the Dee Browns and the Alaa
    Abdelnabys to grasp the fact that Reggie is no longer here.
    
    As for the cosmic forces governing this seven year run of ill fortune,
    the Boston Celtics would respectfully submit that the point, whatever
    it is, has been made.

    Ryan's got it right.  Even I said they were snakebit yesterday.

    Snakebit?  Auerbach would say it's just whining...
    
    I thought about the Adrenelin (sp?) angle.  Wasn't Lewis experimenting
    with Ginseng on April 29th?  Doesn't that give you "quick energy". 
    Maybe that was part of it as well?
    

How stupid does this make the decision of the trainer that sent lewis back into
the game ater he collapsed look? Hopefully other trainers will learn from this.

Snakebit? Bad Luck? Bah...the great marketing exercise called the NBA now
rewqards you for being bad not for being smart or working harder than the other
team. 

The Celtics will suck for a couple of years and then score big in a few
lotteries and be back in the pack before the new garden is broken in...


Metz

    Well the lottery looks inevitable at the moment for the Boys in Green.
    Anyone know what happened to CELTICS notes?  I keep getting
    'insufficient resources at remote node'...

    Metz, it may look bad for the trainer sending Reggie back in, but I can
    just hear the noise that's gonna be raised whenever a player is taken
    out and doesn't return.  "Wimp", "Quitter", etc.
    
    Why would you expect a trainer to be able to diagnose something that
    eluded a team of highly trained expert physicians, who had the time to
    conduct a battery of tests?  Even the conclusions of the tests were not
    cast in concrete, so how the hell is a trainer supposed to do any
    better in a matter of minutes with limited equipment, training and
    experience?
    
    The longer this goes on, the more information becomes available.  But,
    I doubt that everyone will be satisfied with the final conclusion.  
    According to what I read in yesterday's paper, this third opinion
    agreed with Dr. Mudge, which was that Reggie's condition was such that
    he should be monitored when performing under stress in order to record
    certain conditions that would occur during an "attack".  Hopefully,
    those records would help more closely define what was occurring, and
    thus increase the accuracy of the diagnosis.  I didn't read that ANY
    doctor, or team of doctors, unequivocally cleared him to play.
    
    Lee

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Lewis family issues statement
Keywords: basketball, men's professional
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 93 17:56:20 PDT
ACategory: sports
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Lines: 67
 
	Donna Harris-Lewis, the widow of Boston Celtics' captain Reggie
Lewis, issued a statement today which was read by her attorney, Jerome
Stanley, at the Celtics' administrative offices in Boston. The following
is the entire statement:
	``To the fans, friends and supporters throughout Boston and the
United States, we have all suffered a devastating and traumatic loss.
Reggie was much more than one of the best basketball players in the
world and captain of the Boston Celtics. Reggie was one of the kindest
and most gentle people ever to walk this earth. He was a loving husband,
a doting father and a true friend to many.
	``It is important that everyone know that Reggie was very serious and
focused about his health. Reggie and I and our advisors carefully and
meticulously scrutinized every medical opinion, and its respective
foundation, since his initial collapse.
	Reggie not only became intimately familiar with the doctors' opinion
in the initial ``dream team'' diagnosis but he also thoroughly and
completely understood the conflicting opinion issued by Dr. Mudge. Upon
the growth of this clear conflict of opinions, Reggie sought and
assembled an independent team of heart experts to consult with.
	In early June we spent several days in Southern California visiting
and being examined by this independent group of physicians. The
conclusions of these physicians, which is embodied in full and extensive
reports was that Reggie had a distinctive abnormality in the Apex region
of his heart. They felt that although this distinctive abnormality could
have caused the fainting incident, so could have the combination of
factors enunciated by Dr. Mudge.
	Since Dr. Mudge had duplicated the incident in the tilt test, Dr.
Mudge's opinion was the best guess until we were able to duplicate the
symptoms of fainting while under the stress of physical activity. Thus,
the doctors concluded, although they believed that he could eventually
return to controlled conditional competitive basketball, they did not
think he should do so until he had undergone a monitoring of his heart
function while playing competitive basketball. Reggie and I and the
advisors agreed with this direction.
	Reggie did not feel comfortable doing the competitive stress
basketball evaluation at the Celtics minicamp because of the circus
environment that it would have created so he had planned and scheduled
to do the basketball testing under the supervision of Dr. Mudge next
week in Baltimore.
	Until that time, Reggie would not and did not engage in any strenuous
competitive basketball situations. Even if cleared to play, Reggie's
advisors had decided, in conjunction with the third opinion, to allow
Reggie to play only if the Celtics provided a defibrillator machine at
all practices and games this season and provided a team cardiologist at
all practices and games.
	That meeting was to be scheduled for the week of August 10th.
Reggie's death occurred while he was shooting baskets, not exerting
energy in a competitive basketball situation. He had done the same level
of activity, which did not violate any of the doctors' opinion of safe
activity, several times recently in activities ranging from shooting
baskets to playing with our son.
	Reggie had not made his decision to return to basketball because his
testing was not complete. Reggie did everything that he could to avoid
this day ever coming. We will always love Reggie and remember him for
what he did and how he did it. He was a special basketball player, a
special friend, and special husband and would have been a special father
to both of our children.``
--
This, and all articles in this news hierarchy are Copyright 1993 by the wire 
service or information provider and licensed to Clarinet Communications 
Corp.  for distribution.  

    Looks like Mudge ain't the jerk the media is trying to paint...
    
    Without trying to sound insensitive, it looks like Reggies number was
    up by the big guy.
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

  I hope over-paid under-talented local sportscaster Bob Loebel feels
 pretty damned stupid about ranting and raving how Reggie should have
 gotten a third opinion now that it has been revealed that he did. Bob
 ought to stick to narrating the Friday blooper reel because whenever 
 he tries to express an opinion or do some analysis he reveals himself
 as nothing but a talking head.

Lee,

This isn't some sprained ankle incident. Reggie fainted on the court and had a
measurably high heartbeat when brought onto the sideline. This is an athlete in
prime condition and he went unconscious. I've got enough common sense in my
little finger to say you sit out until we figure out what is wrong. The trainer
didn't need any advanced medical equipment, he needed to use his brain and
needed to develop a little backbone.

Trainers should be employed by the athletes union or some body that is
interested in looking out for the health of the players instead of by
management.

Metz

    Anybody (Nazz?) have any idea how Matt Wenstrom did during the Celtics
    mini-camp?  I know he was there and have heard he's a real longshot.
    
    The scoop is he'll play pro ball in Europe if he doesn't stick in the
    NBA, which is highly unlikely.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    How does this compare to say, Marty Barrett suing the Sox because the
    team doctor (and part owner) made him play before he was ready and
    maybe (in Marty's opinion) led him to early retirement?
    
    I think the trainer admits he made a mistake putting him back in.
    He came back out 2 minutes later.  They didn't let him play again
    until he was checked out.  What's the big deal?
    

I would think that any trainer worth his stuffing, should have had the
team doctor look at him before letting him back out there.

Trainers aren't doctors, and I would think they'd pick up on the fact that
fainting is a symptom of something a little more serious -- be it heat
related or due to other things (heart conditions etc)....


'Saw

    Bravo, Tommy.
    
    Regarding sportswriters, did anyone see Will McDonough's column in
    today's Globe itimating that Lewis's autopsy *may* reveal drug use?
    
    Pretty bogus article.  Even if his speculation proves true, can't they
    at least wait until after the memorial service before bringing this up?
    These bozo's *have* to be the first to break a story.  Make's me sick.
    
    Mark.

re.144 (et al)

>         <<< Note 110.144 by CAM3::WAY "The thrill of the grass..." >>>
>
>I would think that any trainer worth his stuffing, should have had the
>team doctor look at him before letting him back out there.
>
>Trainers aren't doctors, and I would think they'd pick up on the fact that
>fainting is a symptom of something a little more serious -- be it heat
>related or due to other things (heart conditions etc)....

I don't often read this conference. Just checked in to see what folks were
saying about Reggie. (By the way, like most others, I'd like to see the media
back off, at least until after the funeral. And agree with those who said
McDonough was out of line speculating about drug use, particularly when there
is no basis for such speculation).

Anyhow, to the matter at hand - before the Celtics trainer is maligned
any further (his name escapes me at the moment), I'd just like to point
out that it *was* the team doctor, Arnold Scheller, who made the call on
Reggie returning to the game after his collapse, not the trainer.

/Jim

>Anyhow, to the matter at hand - before the Celtics trainer is maligned
>any further (his name escapes me at the moment), I'd just like to point
>out that it *was* the team doctor, Arnold Scheller, who made the call on
>Reggie returning to the game after his collapse, not the trainer.

Not a problem, /Jim.

I never saw the game in question and was speaking from what I'd heard
in here.

I know a trainer or two, and I know they don't normally make decisions
like that, which is why I questioned it....


'Saw

    Ed Lecerte is the team trainer.  He had no say in putting Reggie back
    into the game.  It was the team doctor, Arnie Scheller, that told
    Reggie he was OK to play in the second half.  In fact, Reggie took part
    in some kind of presentation at halftime, and he looked fine.  Little
    did we know ..............................
    
    On another matter that ACC Chris brought up.  Wenstrom sipped at
    rookie camp.  Some high school kid ate his lunch regularly, from 
    what I heard.  Perhaps he can take Gheorghe Muresan's place in the
    French league!  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

    In an article I read yesterday, Reggie supposedly HAD participated in
    at least one workout which was more than just a shoot-around.  He and
    another athlete ran full-court one-on-one, including a few dunks.  And,
    he was thought to have been preparing for a full-court game the very
    evening that he died.
    
    These stories were based on interviews with the players that took, or
    were to take, part in the action.
    
    It's quite possible that the truth of what medically happened to him
    may never be known.  I guess it depends on what did happen, and if that
    action is the type that leaves evidence that can be found in an
    autopsy.
    
    No matter what did happen though, the loss of a fine young man is
    indeed tragic.
    
    Lee

Nazz in case ACChris is negligant in his thanks for the Wenstrom update, let
me thank you for the both of us....

;^)

mike

    The only thing about McDonough's column is I thought they mentioned
    around the time of the first collapse that Lewis had experimented with
    ginseng.  It's supposed to give you extra energy and if you remember,
    he came out like a house on fire that game.  Maybe that, with his
    sensitive condition led to that.  
    
    I can't see any reason for bringing up cocaine for this past week. 
    Ginseng's probably a reach.  Coke is uncalled for, especially with that
    timing..
    

    McDonough should be stroking his pen for the Enquirer.
    
    					Steve

Reggie probably woulda got more energy out of Imus' "Vital K".....

I'm just a laymen, but it sounds to me like Reggie's ticker was ready to
quit, and it quit.....plain and simple.....


'Saw

btw, I don't know who did it, but on I91 North, going through the
north meadows of Hartford, there's a big green and white billboard on
the left hand side.

It says, simply:

		
		Reggie
			#35






'Saw

    The Baltimore Orioles and Boston Red Sox had a moment of silence for
    Reggie before Friday night's game.  Reggie was from Baltimore.  They
    showed highlights of his Celtic career on the diamond vision screen
    during the silence.  Many of the Red Sox players have `35' on the backs
    of their caps.

    The thing that bugged me the most about McDonough's column was that
    he tried to imply drug use without coming out and saying it.  He
    mentions that Reggie was questioned about drug use on more than one
    occasion.  Will then moves into questioning the "random" nature of the
    problems that Reggie had, and how it couldn't be reproduced.
    
    It was as if he wanted to point to drug use as a possible cause, but
    deny ever saying it if he ran into flack.
    
    Mike

   Not being a fan of sports talk radio, I've never heard Jimmy Meyers'
  show. only seen him on the Celtics telecasts where he comes off as
  a hokey, self-promoting charlatan. Well, I taped Reggie Lewis's funeral 
  proceedings yesterday and watched them last night and wasn't I sur-
  prised that Jimmy Meyers gave a speech that made him sound like a 
  hokey, self-promoting charlatan. Basically, Jimmy said that all the
  people claiming that they will support Donna had better not turn their
  shoulders on her down the road, which in and of itself would have been
  fine. But then he went on to exercise some kind of vendetta against the
  Celtics, he berated rumor-mongers when I didn't even *know* there were
  rumors and he appointed himself "the guardian at the gate". He then 
  proceeded to recite Rudyard Kipling's most excellent poem, "If" with
  all the emoting of John Lovitz' popinjay "Master Thespian" character.
  Lighten up, Jimmy.

    Master Thespian...too funny!
    
    Mark.

  It was really too bad that Jimmy had to come off like he did because
 the rest of the cermony was very moving and tastefully done. Especially
 nice were the shots of the crowd outside Matthews Arena and the comments
 of folks in the neighborhoods where Reggie ran youth programs. The most
 telling comment came from a young kid of about 8 years old at the YMCA
 in Roxbury who said simply, "He never forgot us. Never."

    What's Jimmy going to have to beef about and drool over next season
    without Reggie around?

    Kind of early to worry about that, ain't it?  And I'm not a Celts
    fan in any sense of the word.
    
    Were Reggie and Jesse Jackson close?
    

	While I don't always agree with Meyers I respect the fact that he 
says what he feels regardless of the ramifications on his career.  Most in 
the media demand someone/something to blame for a death like Reggie's, but 
the more information I get about this the more I believe you're not going 
to be able to find the bad guy to point a finger at.  The sad thing is that 
it took Reggie's death for us to see the really good things he did.  But I 
guess quiet good deeds don't make good copy.

				/Don

    I admire Jimmy Myers for 1) sticking up for what he believes and 2)
    standing by his friends.  His methods aren't always the best and
    he doesn't always say what's popular.  But he does stand by what he
    says, despite what people say.  I'd rather listen to him than some
    of the "I think the Celtics walk on water, oh by the way, they're my
    boss" types they've had on there.

    Hey, wait, that's not a caring sensitive side from /Don... must be to
    plug the workout video...
    
    Myers was right on one thing... at the time of his collapse, Reggie
    (the man) was underappreciated.  Not sure the player was, but the
    man was...                                   

    I like Myers enthusiasm and knowledge.  He does speak his mind,
    which is more than can be said about Ordway.  I'd rather listen
    to him than Eddie.

    Mike

    I got this from A&W while I was away for a few days.  Here's something
    she wanted to have posted.
    
    
    
 Kev --

Could you please post this in the file for me? I'm sure there must be a
topic on this one. :-(  Also, if you could download it for me when
everyone's had a chance to chime in, I'd appreciate the opportunity to
read it all. Many thanks.

On the personal news front - the Chicago gig will end on Aug 13. I'm
taking 2 weeks of vacation after that. Next gig will probably be a
relatively short one in Mass. I'm hoping to arrange to have lunch with you
and some other folks during that vacation.

Hope that Carol's doing well. 

Alison


I listen to a radio station in Chicago which does exactly 2 minutes of
headline news at the top of the hour. Reggie's death was in that quick
blurb. Thank goodness for ESPN, where I was able to find out a little more
about what had happened. :-(

Ever since Reggie's first collapse last spring, I've been saying that he
is the only one who can decide if it is better to play for however long
God gives him, or stop and try to live longer. In the end, none of us know
when our time will be up. The best we can do is to live life as fully as
we can every single day.

I am convinced that Reggie will be missed more for what he did off the
court and the kind of person he was than for what he did on the court.
Almost no one outside of Boston knows how much he did for the community,
because he insisted on doing it so quietly. Someone recently said to me
that humility means that we don't have to be around to take any bows when
a job has been well done. That to me defines Reggie's approach to his
off-court activity - it was done with humility.

In this year when there has been so much (too much, really) loss in the
sporting communities, this one has been one of the harder ones. Some times
we're asked to look very deeply at what's important. Certainly for me,
this year has been one of those times.

May each of us find our own peace.

A&W
     

I'm generally a Meyers fan.  As Walt (?) said, he speaks his mind, regardless 
of the ramifications.  I don't know if what he said was hokey.  If he is as 
close to the Lewis family as he portrays himself to be, then I beleive that 
what he said was heartfelt.  If, however, he was a hanger-on, riding an 
athlete's coat tails, then he was acting.

While the "angry young man" thing is ofter overplayed, Jimmy is consistent on
the things that he feels that way about.  He's not like Andleman, who jumps on 
something, plays it as best he can, and then drops it.  As far as the thesbian 
thing is concerned, once agian, he is consistent in gettign overly emotional 
about things, to the point of the dramatic.

=Bob=

    
    The problem with this standard of "at least he speaks up for what he
    believes in" is that it's selectively enforced, generally based on whom
    one happens to agree with.  The statement is meaningless, unless it's
    backed up with some basis in fact.  I think that Dan Shaughnessy, Will 
    McDonough, Jimmy Myers, and whoever else is going to shoot from the hip 
    with thinly-veiled or even outright accusations of very damaging
    consequences have a responsibility as widely distributed journalists 
    and media personalities to provide the truth, and the facts.  Jimmy 
    Myers is no more admirable for suggesting that Dave Gavitt will have to 
    account for his wrongdoings to Reggie Lewis before God than a Celtics' 
    apologist is for saying that they can do no wrong.  There's no heroism 
    in simply being controversial.  As a matter of fact, I think that most
    of this hand-waving and finger-pointing is doing a major disservice to
    Lewis' memory, who by all accounts was not that kind of a person.  If
    Myers or anyone else has some factual basis for his accusations, let's
    see the evidence, or otherwise be held accountable.
    
    glenn
    

	Walt, one of the reasons Reggie was underappreciated was because of 
his personality.  He didn't blow his own horn, he didn't talk a lot of 
trash and consequently was ignored by the media.  What he was doesn't sell 
and that in itself speaks volumes about not only the media, but all of us.
One would like to think that yesterday's turnout at his memorial was 
because of who Reggie was and what he stood for, but the tremendous media 
coverage of his death also brought folks out.

				/Don

    I don't understand this business that Bostonians didn't appreciate
    Reggie Lewis.  Jimmy Myers is an angry man with one huge chip on his
    shoulder.  He's got a 12" mouth in a 7" head and he seems to take
    too many things the wrong way.  Yesterday was not the time to proclaim
    himself "gate keeper" during a memorial service.  He turns too many
    people off, which to me should be exactly what he's trying NOT to
    accomplish.
    
    Reggie Lewis was one of the highest paid players in the NBA.  When he
    signed his last contract, he was in the top five in salary.  Obviously, 
    the Boston Celtics appreciated his basketball skills.  Did Myers really 
    think that Lewis should have received the adoration that Bird did with 
    the fans?  You just don't replace a legend one year after his retirement.  
    There isn't anybody that could have done that.
    
    Another thing is this media bashing that's taking place because we
    weren't informed about all the work Reggie had done with children.  There 
    are many players who give up much of their free time for kids.  They 
    also don't want it publicized.  We don't read about all that Tony
    Fossas does in the Hispanic community, or all the work that Rich Gedman
    has done with kids, or because I've personally seen what this guy has done, 
    Mark Fydrich.  Players don't want stuff like that splattered in the
    papers.
    
    					Steve
                                                  

    What did Gavitt or Myers say?  I missed it.  Did he think the Celts
    didn't do enough?  In terms of what?
    
    They said the decision was up to Reggie.  They would pay him if he
    never played again.  If there's more to it than that, I'd have to hear
    both sides before picking a side.  Can't criticize either until then.
    
    Like I said, even if I don't agree with something he says, I have more
    respect for him than a lot of others like Lobel, McDonough, etc...
    
    

    /Don,
    
    I understand that.  Not saying Reggie preferred it that way.  All I'm
    saying is that for all Reggie did and the way he touched people, that
    as a person, it's too bad something like this was needed to get it out
    in the open.  As a player, people did respect him, although he's not
    in the Bird category (with valid reason).  Especially with the talk of
    what kind of example a Barkley or Jordan or Tarpley or others have
    provided, it wasn't a bad idea for someone else toot his horn and I
    don't think it was that off-base.  Let's face it, the amount of
    attention Reggie got this week would have embarrassed Reggie.  He
    wasn't looking for publicity and attention.  Just wanted to know the
    good he did for this world was appreciated.
    

   The highlight of the ceremony, for me, was Jim Calhoun, Reggie's college
  coach. He was visibly shaken and struggled to get through his brief moment
  on the podium. But what he said was heartfelt. He spoke about meeting this 
  skinny kid from Baltimore who could probably have gone anywhere but he came
  to Northeastern and how much joy it gave him to watch that skiiny kid grow
  into the kind of man that aby father or mother would be proud to call their
  son. It was really moving. Equally moving were other speeches by Robert
  Parish, Dennis Johnson, Reggie's cousins and his brothers. Like I said before,
  I do not listen to sports talk radio, so I'm not all that familiar with Jimmy
  Myers but even if he was completely sincere about what he was saying, and I 
  don't doubt that he was, he needn't have cast himself as the martyr or chosen
  that time to vent or have done either of those things with the theatricality 
  that he did. 

    I've listed to Myers quite a bit over the years, during both of his
    periods in Boston.  He's a lot better than he used to be, but I still
    don't care for him.  It's not what he's for that gets to me, it's the
    way he presents it.  His message always seems to be "I'm right, you're
    wrong.  End of discussion."  He has his mind made up before discussion,
    and he self-proclaims that he has the final word on the subject.  Not
    in all things, but in too many for me to stomach.
    
    I don't doubt for a minute that he was sincere in what he said, but his
    presentation, again, was grating and abrasive.  There are gentler ways
    of reminding people than to basically threaten them.
    
    As for Reggie's work off of the court, I agree that quite a few
    athletes prefer that it be either downplayed, or not played at all. 
    That is their personality, and it speaks volumes for their humility. 
    It is apparent that Reggie was of this ilk.  A man who cared for others
    is a fine testimony.  It's unfortunate that it took his death to bring
    this to the fore.  But, I'd bet that this is what he would have
    preferred, rather than having it publicized.  And, I also think that
    it's much more meaningful to those he touched, knowing that he did it
    because he wanted to, not just for publicity.
    
    Lee

    Some of the autopsy findings have been released.  According to a news
    report I heard this morning the cause of death was enlarged heart
    tissue -- the same thing that killed Hank Gathers.

Article: 9418
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.tw.health,clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Celtic's Lewis died of myocarditis
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 93 4:41:53 PDT
 
	BOSTON (UPI) -- An autopsy shows Boston Celtics captain Reggie Lewis
died of myocarditis, a heart abnormality that killed Loyola Marymount
basketball star Hank Gathers three years ago.
	The Boston Globe reported Wednesday the state medical examiner's
autopsy indicated Lewis suffered from an inflammation of heart muscle
tissue known as myocarditis, a disease that can produce an erratic
heartbeat, collapse and eventual death.
	The report said Lewis suffered considerable scarring of the heart,
and this scarring eventually caused the cardiac arrest that killed him
just over a week ago.
	Lewis collapsed while shooting baskets at Brandeis University in
Waltham, and was pronounced dead a short time later.
	The Globe said the autopsy report, which is expected to be released
after being given to the Lewis family, also showed there were no illegal
drugs in Lewis's system at the time of his collapse.
	Lewis, 27, had been treated for a heart condition after collapsing
during an NBA playoff game in April. One team of experts said Lewis
suffered a heart problem and should not play again, but another team
said Lewis had a benign fainting condition and could play again.
	The Celtics star was taking part in a light workout on July 27 when
he again collapsed. This time the heart attack was fatal.
	The Globe said the autopsy showed that Lewis, like other athletes
between 20 and 40, suffered from myocarditis, which can be caused by
infection from a variety of sources. Often no cause can be found, the
Globe said.
	The scarring on Lewis's heart was not readily apparent during initial
examinations, the report said.
	The medical examiner's office is waiting for more tests that could
take as much as two more weeks to be completed.

Article 9423 of clari.sports.basketball:
Xref: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com clari.local.new_england:1564 clari.tw.health:4622 clari.sports.basketball:9423
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.local.new_england,clari.tw.health,clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Doctor who gave Reggie Lewis OK to play speaks
Keywords: obituary, cardiovascular, health, basketball, men's professional
Message-ID: <us-lewisUR7b5_3a5@clarinet.com>
References: <us-lewisUR7c1_3lS@clarinet.com>
X-Supersedes: <us-lewisURb1d_3a5@clarinet.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 93 12:24:00 PDT
Location: new england states
ACategory: usa
Slugword: us-lewis
Priority: regular
Format: regular
ANPA: Wc: 376/349; Id: z3897; Sel: xbno.; Adate: 8-5-N/A; Ver: 4/2; V: 2ndld-writethru
Approved: clarinews@clarinet.com
Codes: &no.rxb., &nkhrxb., &skprxx., xxxxxxxx
Note: (mudge says lewis died day before monitoring plans in place)
Lines: 36

	BOSTON (UPI) -- The cardiologist who told Reggie Lewis his heart was
strong enough for him to play basketball again said Thursday the Boston
Celtics star died the day before plans for monitoring his return to the
court were finalized.
	In his first public comments since Lewis's death last week, Dr.
Gilbert Mudge, director of clinical cardiology at Brigham and Women's
Hospital in Boston, said conflicting test results and various
interpretations of the same medical data complicated the case from the
start.
	Lewis was shooting baskets during a light workout at Brandeis
University in Waltham, Mass., on July 27 when he collapsed and died.
	Results of a preliminary autopsy released Wednesday showed the
Celtics captain died of myocarditis, a heart abnormality that also
killed Loyola Marymount basketball star Hank Gathers three years ago.
	``My opinion regarding the possibility of Reggie's return to
professional basketball was always conditional and dependent upon
further testing, careful monitoring, and the progress of a planned
exercise program,'' Mudge said.
	``At the time of his death, arrangements were being made for
monitoring in accordance with my recommendations and those of our
consulting physicians,'' the doctor said.
	``He died the day before those plans were finalized.''
	Lewis, 27, collapsed during a playoff game at the Boston Garden in
April. A team of experts then told him he suffered from heart problems
and should not play again, but a medical team led by Mudge told him he
suffered from a benign fainting condition and could return to
basketball.
	``In the weeks following discharge, Reggie was followed closely. He
never violated recommendations. His complete evaluation was reviewed by
national experts and an independent panel in California. At all stages,
information received from consultants was shared with Reggie,'' Mudge
said.
	Mudge said he was ``deeply saddened'' by Lewis's death, but had
refrained from commenting until he received permission to speak from
Lewis's widow, Donna Harris Lewis.
	Mudge said he will not answer any further questions about Lewis.


    

    It looks like Jimmy Myers has worn out his welcome yet again and
    will not return to 'Tics broadcasts next year. Apparently, the 
    final straw was his eulogy at Reggie's funeral (see note 110.158).
    However, methinks (and so does Jack Craig of the Boston Globe
    where I got all of this info) that the writing was on the wall
    for quite some time. The list of jobs that Jimmy has had and left
    under bad terms reads like a sportscasters wet dream - WOR in New
    York, ESPN, WBZ-TV in Boston and the Celtics job to name but four.
    Hopefully, Jimmy will some day learn to put his enormous ego aside
    and realize that moderation and discretion doesn't necessarily equate
    to playing the houseboy.

    
    	I could be sadly mistaken here so please correct me if I'm
    	wrong.
    
    	I can recall 4 athletes *dropping dead* on the field of play.
    	I remember Hank Gathers, Flo H(can't remember the rest of her
    	last name but she played on the US volleyball team), a wide
    	receiver for Detroit(?), and of course Reggie.  In all 4
    	cases, their hearts were defective.  They were also in their
    	primes.
    
    	The other common denominator is that they were all black.  I
    	honestly can't remember any other athletes (of a different
    	race) dying like this.  Could this be genetic?  Has there
    	been any studies done to try and determine any trends?
    
    Claybone

    Pete Maravich

re: Meyers

Jack Craig and the guy from the Herald (cain't remeber his name)  both have a 
real "in" for sports radio.  They seem to revel in their falture.  Time and 
time again Craig has speculated about moves the station will make, only to 
have them not happen.  I suspect that newspapers see sports radio stations as 
a threat, since they can deliver the news on a real time and in depth basis.

I still like Meyers, and even if his ego is an issue, at least he speaks his 
mind.  Also, unlike most of his callers, Meyers is aware that there are other 
places where thye have sports teams besides Boston, and that there are other
sports besides pro baseball, basketball and football.

=Bob=

    
    	As usual, I needed correcting.  :*)
    
    Claybone

    	I met Meyers this year in the Sports Cafe before a Broons game.  He
    seemed okay to me.  He went overboard with the Lewis death but that's
    Jimmy, never boring.
    
    				/Don

    I don't mind Myers too much when he sticks to basketball, where he 
    appears to have considerable knowledge.  I think the guy is terrible on
    baseball with that "Red Sox Second Guess" show, though, where he has 
    basically adopted the WEEI/Eddie Anvilhead party line that the Red Sox
    "need *athletes*" and are absolutely, positively incapable of doing
    anything right, no matter what.  I've been pretty critical of Red Sox'
    management over the years myself, but at least try to have some idea of
    what I'm talking about before I fly off the handle.  With Andelman and 
    Myers, you can automatically assume that whatever the Sox try, it was 
    exactly the opposite of what they needed to do.  When you get into that 
    mode the heart might be in the right place, but you give away all 
    credibility as an *objective* sports host.  I sense that the same thing
    has happened to Myers with the Lewis tragedy, where his grief and
    frustration have gotten the better of his mind.  Frankly, if the guy
    goes, I won't miss him much, especially since his primary role is as
    host of the baseball show.
    
    glenn
       

    
    Flo Hyman is the woman volleyball player you were trying to remember.  
    She was really the first that I can remember dying from heart problems. 
    At the time, I remember them saying that her problem was congenital,
    but seemed to happen more often in blacks.  
    
    brews
    

Flo Hyman died of Marfan's Syndrome, I believe.

Lee

This weeks SI has an article on Lewis and a back page editorial. 

They stoop to inuendo about drug rumors.

Metz

    
    lEe,
    
    	What is Marfan's Syndrome?
    
    Claybone

>    
>    	What is Marfan's Syndrome?
>    
>    Claybone

I'm not positive, but I think it's another heart ailment.


We had a very good distance runner here in Connecticut who dropped dead
the day after she won a road race, at a family picnic.  Her heart just
stopped.  She was only 35.....


'Saw

         Add the names of Alex Eldridge (UMASS Class of '78) and Arturo
    Brown (BU - early '80's) as two young black basketball players who
    died of heart problems while playing basketball.  Rick Pitino (his
    coach at the time) called Brown's death, the toughest thing he ever had
    to deal with as a coach.
    
    Russ

    Claybone,
    
    I can't recall the details of Marfan's Syndrome, except I seem to
    recall that it's pretty much undectable.  Or at least it doesn't have
    symptoms that are readily apparent.
    
    Anyone out there have more details?
    
    Lee

    
    
    The wide receiver for the Detroit Lions was named Hughes. He was white
    and died after being hit in the chest (I believe) during a pass play
    over the middle. Believe that the hit caused his aorta to rupture.
    
    He got up, took a few steps, and collapsed.
    
    

    Chuck Hughes was the receiver.
    

SI did a big article on this a few years back, shortly after the deaths of
Flo and Pistol Pete.  If I recall correctly, Pete Maravich also suffered from
this sydrome unknowingly.

In short the syndrome shows itself in a weakened aorta, the largest artery in 
the body, which is attached to the heart.  The aorta's job is to channel large
quantities of oxygenated blood from the left ventricle of the heart to all 
parts of the body except the lungs.  If someone suffers from Marfan's, their
aorta can just rip, with or without other exertion.  In Flo's case, she was
just sitting on the bench.  Once ripped open, you bleed to death internally
very quickly, and your dead.  CPR won't help, nothing much will short of being
on the operating table with your chest already opened before it blows.

It's a tough one to diagnose, as people who suffer from it generally have no
chest pain or other symptoms before hand.  If discovered, there are operations
that can be done to better one's chances.

One indicator of this syndrome is the person's body.  Stretch your arms out 
to form a human 'T'.  If the measurement from the tip of one middle finger to
the other middle finger is longer than you are tall, (i.e. you're 6'2" and have
a wingspan of 6' 6") you are at a much higher risk for suffering this syndrome.

It's a rather nasty disease, and because of the body types necessary for the 
sports, it's one that happens upon bball and volleyball players more so then
hockey or baseball players.

Ah yes, now I remember.

Good job, Tom.

Lee

    Marfan's sounds like a specific type of aortic aneurysm which are
    can be caused by different things.
    
    b

    They think honest Abe had it too...

	In Europe a hungarian (I believe) hockey player died after being hit
	
	in the chest with a light check.  The coorner said that the death

	was unrealated to the check, but the player who hit him, a Canadian,

	is being brought up on charges of manslaugeter.

	Nadeem

    Looks like the Celtics are continuing their migration to the southwest.

Are you seriously bragging about Pheonix signing Joe Klein?

Metz

    Yea, Kleine will definitely putteeh Suns over the top for a 
    champeenship.
    
    

    I didn't see a boast in .200, did you?

re: .202

Bob, at least we know that you will put in a proper entry into the
Crow Cafe when the Suns don't win it all in 1994 
:-)

The Crazy Met

To clarify:

Bob, at least we know that you will not wimp out when you put
an  entry into the Crow Cafe when the Suns don't win it all in 1994 

Better??

The Crazy Met

    I would swollow hard on my crow, should I make a prediction that
    does't come true.  My note, however, did not indicate that I didn't
    think the Suns would win the champeenship nexted year.  What I did
    say was that Joe Kleine would certainly not be the ingrediant that puts
    them over the top.  In fact with the same basaic team, with one more
    yer of experience, combined with the Bulls being a year olde the Suns
    te odds on favorite?
    
    =Bob=

Except the Bulls added Kucoc (sp?) and that could make the difference.

The Crazy Met

    Bob, what would your objective opinion be when the Suns sign AC Green
    later this week?

    Well Kukoc's contract is still up in the air (no pun...), and AC Green
    would give the Suns another player with a champeenship ring - how could
    the Suns be anything but favorites...
    
    =Bob=

    That's what I think too.  So if you're objective, I'm proud to join ya!

    Mind you, I'm being an objective analyst, I'm not predicting a
    
    Kinda feel the same way about UNC.  Now wouldn't you say it woould take
    a major chokfor them not to repeat?
    
    And for that matter, doesn't  the Notre Dame football team look tough
    tised year?

    Bob youze becomin' a front runner??
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    No front runner here Craze.  Just tryin' to get these double-revers
    sandbaggers we see here to commit that their teams should dominate, and
    that anything else would be a chicken bone.
    
    =Bob=

    The Suns are doomed now.  Joe Klein and Tom Kite are in the same
    category.  They are very heavy weights for any team to cart around.  
    Neither Orlando or Phoenix will be able to win a championship with
    either of these guys on their team.  The Celtics are looking better
    already.
    
    Steve

    I'd guess Greg Kite would be up there too...
    

    Or maybe Greg Kite.  I suppose Tom Kite probably would be a bit more of
    a drag...
    
    Oops.

Wail, I went to the gloppy Garden to my firsted Celtics game 
in two seasons lasted night (vs. Joisey).  Here are some thoughts:

 o The yuppy crowd is still there, maybe not in the numbers of 
   past years.  We had excellent seats in the loge, six rows up
   and the people next to us showed up at the start of the second
   quarter, and left at HALFTIME!  Here I was sitting in the best 
   seats that I have ever had for a sporting event, and these 
   schmucks are only there for one quarter.  Meanwhile, the row 
   in front of us was occupied by a flock of guys in suits so
   expensive, Mike Leary would have looked like a pauper.  These
   guys at least stayed for the whole game, but their entire 
   evening was spent chatting about their lates clients, not 
   basketball.  I almost asked one of them why they bother to 
   come, but stopped myself.

 o Derrick Coleman is the real thing, Kenny Anderson is good, but
   the rest of the Nets are pretty clueless.  The one guy I 
   expected more from was Armon Gilliam, but he seemed to be
   sleepwalking.  They truely miss Petrovich.

 o Robert Parrish is incredible.  I realize he was playing against
   Benoit Benjamin and Dwayne Schintzus (talk about a waste of 
   skin), but notbody could stop him early on.  Dina Radja can play
   too but seems pretty deliberate in his moves.

 o The Celtics played good team defense.  (B)Rick Fox remains lost
   on offense, but he held his own on D.

 o The Boston Garden is a disgusting old, ugly building, and I 
   won't miss it at all.

=Bob=

    Great picture on the back page of the Boston Herald.
    
    Derrick Coleman committing a vewy personal foul on Robert Parish.
    And I do mean personal!!
    
    Robert is mouthing "SHHHEEEEEEIIIIT"
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

    How could you expect more from Gillium?  He is absolutely HORRIBLE!!!!
    

Hey NAZZ,
How come the NBA lets S. Bradley wear no. 76
and Georges Mureson 77?
Do both officials have to signal to you simultaneously?

inquiring mind, 
dr.a

    There used to be a rule that said the highest number anyone could wear
    was 55, so's that the refs could clearly signal the number of the
    player who committed the foul.  I guess they don't have that rule any
    more.
    
    I used to think that the shorter the guy, the uglier he was (no offense
    Kev), but Muresan sure proves that the opposite is true.
    
    NAZZ

>    There used to be a rule that said the highest number anyone could wear
>    was 55, so's that the refs could clearly signal the number of the
>    player who committed the foul.  I guess they don't have that rule any
>    more.
    
I was under the impression that the 55 rule was just a college rule, but
I could be wrong.

'Saw

    Ex. Cowens, Havlicek...
    

  Think NBA Marketing had anyhting to do witht the change in the 55 rule?

 mike   

    So what does everyone think about Dino Radja for ROY?  I heard a writer
    from Philly say that, thus far, he's got his vote.

    Probably the same reason the Canadien's numbers are all in the 40's...
    

    Can anyone give me the EXACT score of the Celtics game on
    Thursday - 12/30/93.
    
    					Thanks
    					  cj

    Ford is quoted in today's herald as 
    
    "If Wenstrom can get me rebounds I'm going with Wenstrom"
    
    I had a feeling awhile back that Ford might be dying to try Wenstrom in
    realtime as Acie seems more and more a project like croat #1 (in fact
    Croat #2 - Dino Radja has been benched along with Pinckney for Fox and
    another (Gamble?).
    
    This may be a classic case of keeping a guy on the bench because guy #1
    has a big contract.
    
    The only qualifier I have about my feeling about Wenstrom as a sleeper
    is I personally haven't seen him play but then again who has except
    apparently Sat. nite when he got more than his allotted 2.
    
    Montross of all people was high on Wenstrom.

    Funny the subject of Wenstrom should come up, cause he was just
    featured on The Dean Smith show tonight.  Apparently Matt is within
    days of getting his guaranteed money for the year, and based on the
    comments I'm reading, that appears to be a done deal now.  (i.e. he may
    be playing more in the near-term)
    
    The thing to realize about Matt is that:
    
    A) He was highly recruited out of HS (McDonald's AA)
    B) He's not as good as Montross or Salvadori, but both of them are 
       projected 1st-rounders.  Some scouts think Salvadori may end up
       being a better pro than Eric.  I've head Montross compared
       favorably with Joe Kleine, who had a long and prosperous NBA
       career.
    C) Wenstrom is a nice guy to have fill out your roster, cause he's
       a hustler who'll put out at practice and not complain.
    
    Dean was gushing about him today as a kid who made *huge* sacrifices
    for the good of the team, and he thinks he'll be a pro for a long time.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    The deadline was last week..
    

    re: title of note .232
    
    Couldn't happen to a nicer team. NOT!
    
    It is so good to hear comparisons to Curtis Rowe and Sidney Wick.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Crazy, didn't I just read something in another note about Bostonians
    having an inferiority complex?  Well the Celtics have apparently been
    a nightmare to you and many of the other "cardboard people" that attend
    Knicks games these days.
    
    					Steve

    Yes, Radja and Fox.
    
    Croat #1 was that center who sat on the bench two years ago.  Or was he
    another yugo nationality.?

    > He's a journeyman backup center/forward at best
    
    who's had a long and lucrative NBA career and is no_doubt a
    millionaire.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Stoyko Vrankovic.  A terrible basketball player.
    
    I've heard Montross compared more to another former Celtics center,
    Greg Kite.  Long and undistinguished pro career.  Sits picks, commits
    fouls, grabs some rebounds.  Joe Kleine has a very smooth 16-20' jump
    shot that Montross can only dream about.
    
    As for the Celtics, SHERMAN DOUGLAS MUST GO!!!!!  HE IS AN INCREDIBLE
    LOSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  NOTHING HAS GONE RIGHT SINCE GAVITT TRADED FOR
    HIM!!!!!!  
    
    Speaking of Gavitt, I am still waiting for him to make his first
    positive move as Head of Basketball Operations, or whatever his title
    is now.  Drafting Jon Barry instead of Oliver Miller was certainly a
    gem of a move!  :-(
    
    NAZZ

    Mac, there's absolutely no way I ever compared Montross to Shaq.  None. 
    Zero.  Zilch.  Nada.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    Put it in his envelope when he gets around to sending it...
    

Walt, are you all confused on where to post your replies?

The Crazy Met

    Oops... must have done a next unseen...
    

    as per Nazz's <sic> note is it a coincidence that Celtic's losing
    streaks stopped with Shoeless Douglas' absence?
    
    Also, Vin Baker has been ceremoniously NOT selected to the rookie all
    star game.  He would probably be in the top 3 of roy balloting by nba
    cognescenti?  Any nba-c types in here?
    
    I have noticed Vin averaging about 35mins per game for bucks. Okay,
    maybe #4 after Webber,Hardaway and Mashburn.
    
    Rodney Rogers as predicted in sprots is also not on rookie team.

    I wouldn't put him in the top 3... Who got named to it?
    at forwards, I'd put Mashburn, Webber, Radja, Rider and
    maybe Jones ahead of him.
    
    
    Hardaway 13.8 ppg 4.9 rpg 5.6 apg
    Radja 13.7 ppg 7.5 rpg, 1.0 bpg
    Bradley 9.3 ppg 6.1 rpg, 3.1 bpg
    Hunter 10.3 ppg, 3.8 apg, 2.2 rpg
    Mills (CLE) 10.1 ppg 3.8 rpg, .6bpg
    Baker 8.3 ppg 5 rpg 1.3 bpg 
    Cheaney 8.2 ppg 1.5 apg, 2.3 rpg
    
    Mashburn 20.6 ppg 5.5 rpg, 2.9 apg
    Webber 16.4 ppg, 9.2 rpg, 3.8 apg
    Rider 13.9 ppg 3rpg, 2.2 apg
    Van Exel 11.2 ppg 5.9 apg, 2.9 rpg
    Jones (DAL) 7.0 ppg, 8.9 rpg, 1.9 apg

    They must be going on those stats you've provided instead of first hand
    information since in the last 2-3 weeks Baker has been averaging about
    15 points and 8 rebounds / game.
    
    Hopefully Boston will play 'kee and we can all lick our chops at the
    hopeless possiblity that a Radja for Baker trade could be engineered.
    
    I find Dino makes even Larry Bird look speedy

    1) You started the stat talk by talking about minutes
    2) You can't make a guy an all-star by 2 weeks worth of play.
    3) If you don't like Dino and think Baker has more talent, why would
       Milwaukee make a deal.  Especially since they made more room for
       him by dealing Avent this past weekend. (See some people do pay
       attention).

    Well, Baker appears to be one of the top rookies in an excellent rookie
    class and I was shocked that he wasn't even selected for the all-star
    game.  I personnally have only briefly seen him on a new clip, mea
    culpa but when he starts playing 35 minutes a game someone thinks he's
    pretty good.
    
    Actually I don't completely understand this rookie all-star game
    anyway.  Is it supposed to be east-west, 10 rookies per side or are the
    10 rookies playing someone else?
    
    No, Milwaukee would never make the deal and the Celts would in an
    instant (Baker for Radja).
    
    Billb 

16 rookies total.  8 to a side.  No east-west.  Somehow they
divide up the players without regard to conference.  Two 15-minute
halves.

Ken

Vin Baker out of U-Hahahahah.... (that's how we lovingly refer to
University of Hartford)....

Glad to see he's doing so well.....


'Saw

    Tony Pena defies comparison with any normal situation; the only thing
    comparable was Wilt Chamberlain and his .40 free throw percentage.
    
    My original point was that the selection should have been made
    according to how each rookie was playing asof January 10th not October
    10th or whenever.
    
    Milwaukee let her veterans play themselves out of a job and then let
    Baker win it, he did and he is on his way to serious roy contention.
    
    Unless his Hartford (U.) (read no big rep.) is killing him.
    
    Perhaps there is someone in this note who actually follows pro ball that
    has had chance to see the various rookies in action and can comment.

    10. He realized how goofy he looks in tank tops and shorts.
    
    9. Forced out for repeatedly calling David Stern while thinking he was
    talking to Howard Stern.
    
    8. To spend more time drinking beer with Norm and Cliff.
    
    7. He didn't understand why they named the floor of Boston Garden after
    a margarine.
    
    6. That damn Clinton income-tax hike.
    
    5. Had trouble reading the scoreboard from the bench.
    
    4. 13 years of chaffing and itching.
    
    3. Never learned to speak jive.
    
    2. Lost his job to Darren Morningstar and Marcus Webb.
    
    1. With his kids on the sidelilne, chants of "McHale sucks!" replaced
    by chants of "Dad sucks!"

    Loved Ainge's comments about McHale: (paraphrased)
    
    "Kevin didn't really look all that much like Herman Munster, but when
    golfing, we would hide beneath his forehead during a rain shower."
    
    "When Kevin had knee surgery, they couldn't find any screws long enough
    until they pulled one from the side of his neck."
    
    Mark.

    yeah, Ainge is pretty funny.  They showed clips of most of his roast
    segment on the Charles Barkley show.  Looked like it was a great time.

    That was pretty painful to see last night, on the rare occassion of my
    getting to watch a little.
    
    Radja - Professional moves, nice shot all the right tools to be a top
    notch European player but slow and situated (as in one spot).  Not much
    on the boards.  Not a power forward, not a small forward, not
    
    Sherman -  Why does he always use two handed pass.  Cousy in 10 years
    never once made a two handed pass.
    
    Fox - Finally come around.  Could help any team.  Will get better.
    
    Dee - I'd keep him.  Must shoot consistently.
    
    Parrish - Makes an early decision on whether team has come to play. 
    Was willing to make the sacrifice but not alone.  He has to pace
    himself for long season but the rest have no excuse.  Then again Dee
    and Douglas are putting in a lot of minutes.
    
    NY jumped all over C's when Mason and Anthony came in.
    
    

	does Acie Earl (from Iowa) ever get any playing time?  Is he being
	"groomed" or is he a stiff?

	Kevin (Iowa City born)

    fwiw: Trey Bender (Gary Bender's son) who works for the Phoenix version 
    of WFAN, says his latest scoop is Danny Manning going to the
    Celtics.

    I think that rumor started a couple of years ago. You mean its still a
    rumor???
    
                stig

Manning is an unrestricked free agent at the end of the year and can go 
wherever he wants without compensation.....

Sherm Douglas is John Bagley in a smaller body...one minute you love him
next you want to shoot him....

mikey 

    Kevin,
    	Right now Acie is a "stiff" but I don't think Celts have given up
    completely on him.  However, Celtic style is to point out the
    fundemental flaws and expect the player to overcome them.  Acie has to
    now, first prove it in practice and then in games.
    
    	Biggest flaw.  Speed and mobility.  Earl just can't make it down
    the court.
    
    	Second is the fact he is labeled low caste rookie in the ref's
    pecking order; I and others have expounded on this but Earl's stronger
    points, back to the basket play (perhaps) are impossible until he
    achieves some nba "status".
    
    	The big battle as I see it is Ford wants to go with Wenstrom but
    Gavitt is telling him its Earl or no one.  Ford has has Pinckney
    (injuered lateley), Radja and others spelling Parrish and the latter
    doing 35+ minutes.
    
    Bill  
    
    btw , Walt D called the other night and says hi

    According to Bender's sources, it's practically a done deal.

    Walt D what?
    

    Walt!! how did you escape...I mean, you're back!!
    
    Gin

    Must have been while you were moving to your new job...

but who's going to trade for him =Bob=, when they know all they have to do
is wait until the year is over than make him an offer and not owe the
Clippers any compensation. Only a team who has a real chance at the champion-
ship and feels Danny is the missing piece would make a trade for him now.
Also throw in the fact that if they do trade for him, they'd still have to
sign him up for a long term contract after that or risk loosing him after
the season ends, I don't see anybody out there taking that gamble. Maybe
the Knicks who having been trying to buy their way to the championship
the last few years might gamble and maybe the Rockets. Suns would but
they already have Chuckie at that posistion....

mike

Celtics: how are they wrt the salary cap next year? Manning will cost a
bundle.

The Crazy Met

 they're over. they'd have to make a few moves to free some cash....

 mike

    Are you sure, Mike?  They only have a few players signed through next
    year, McHale is gone, Bird is gone, and Parish is in the last year of
    his contract.

	Mac, I seem to recall something about Reggie Lewis' contract
	being the residual thorn for the Celts.


	billl

    	Billl's right, Reggis Lewis' salary counts against the cap.

    I know that, but there are several other salaries that won't after this
    year.

    I just hope they don't toss all their available dough at Manning (or
    some All-Star equivalent).  They still have to pursue some talent/depth
    at other key positions.

    For next year, still on the books for the Celtics:
    
    Reggie Lewis:  two years left, $3.5 million, $3.7 million
    Sherman Douglas:  four years left, $3.1, $3.4, $3.6, and $4.0!!!!!!!
    Xavier McDaniel:  two years, $2.8 and #3.0
    Ed Pinckney: one year at $1.6
    Dino Radja:  one year at $2.2
    Acie Earl:  one or two years, don't know how much
    
    Fox, Brown, Abdelnaby and Corchiani are restricted free agents.
    Parish and Gamble are unrestricted free agents.
    
    Don't know status of Oliver and Wenstrom, as if it matters.
    
    Having to pay Sherman all that money for such a long time makes the
    deal to get him the worst trade in Celtics history.
    
    NAZZ
    

That is 11.2 + Earl?? Which gives them 2+ or is it 3-4+?

They could pull a deal like Portlant did with Dudley. Acutally after that
deal was upheld, the cap is a joke.

The Crazy Met

    So, if they don't re-sign Parish, they'll be under the cap.  If they do
    sign him, they'll be over.
    
    NAZZ

Heard on the radio this morning that after last nights lost the Celtics
have clinched a losing home record for the first time in 25 years. That
would have been the 1968-69 team? Didn't that team win the NBA title?
What was the home record of the 1978-79 and 1979-80 teams??

The Crazy Met

    TCM, kudos for confessing Celtic greatness.

 it was 69-70 team the first year after the greatest player EVER retired,
 that set the loosing record at home.......

 mike

MikeH

I expected that a Celtic fan like you would have these answers immediately
available - or are you not a fan in years that they play badly??? 

The Crazy Met

    
>What was the home record of the 1978-79 and 1979-80 teams??
    
    78-79 == 21-20
    79-80 == 35-6 (They was terrible that year, eh!!!)  :-)
    
    
    JimH
    
    BTW, in 77-78 they were 24-17, which was one of the year you probably 
    meant to ask about....
    
    
    

Yeah the other year I wanted to know about was 77-78.

The Crazy Met

>I expected that a Celtic fan like you would have these answers immediately
>available - or are you not a fan in years that they play badly??? 
    
    I was only 7 years old then, but I still had my Converse Bob Cousy
    shoes!

    I think the '86 home record is the standard that all teams are judged
    by.

Was that the 41-1 record??

Who did they lose to??

The Crazy Met

    I can't remember who, but I recall it being in the first month or two
    of the season.  From January thru the Championship, they were
    undefeated at home.

did they lose to the Lakers at home on the Finals?

The Crazy Met

    Nope, the Lakers choked to Houston in the Western Conference finals
    that year and saved themselves a royal butt-whippin!

    BTW - I have the Bird/Auerbach tape on winning basketball.  Some
    excellent footage in there as well as clinics by all starters (+Walton)
    from the '86 team.

    The Celtics lost in early December to Portland by close to 20 points
    for their only loss of the 1985-86 season.  The following year they
    only lost once at the Garden during the regular season but also lost a
    home game in Hartford to Washington to finish with a 39-2 regular
    season home record.
    
    NAZZ

re: good old days

that is a matter of perspective.

How good a team was Portland that year??


The Crazy Met

The only game I went to that year....

daryll

re: .297

you mean you actually managed to get a ticket with all the yuppie and yuppie
wannabes paying outrageous sums of money for tickets that year, even against
teams like the Clippers??

The Crazy Met

    A Knicks fan complaining about the Celtic fans.  That's a riot.  Too
    bad Tommy's not here to put him in his place.

    >> you mean you actually managed to get a ticket with all the yuppie 
    >> and yuppie wannabes paying outrageous sums of money for tickets 
    >> that year, even against teams like the Clippers??

        I'd rag on all the yuppies at MSG but they don't show up until
        playoff time. Right now, with a metropolitan area of roughly
        16 million people and a decent team, you could still probably 
        buy seats the day of the game. And its not like there's the 
        excuse of the stadium being life threatening like Yankee Stadium 
        or Shea.
    

> Right now, with a metropolitan area of roughly
> 16 million people and a decent team, you could still probably
> buy seats the day of the game.

I was hoping you would say that. Knicks games are sold out for the 
rest of the season.

The Crazy Met

 >> I was hoping you would say that. Knicks games are sold out for the 
 >> rest of the season.

    Did they ease the dress code? Now they let you in with an off-the-rack
    suit? It couldn't be that the Knicks are in first place in the Eastern 
    Conference. Maybe it's just time for the Knicks to rack up one of those 
    30 game sellout streaks that the New York announcers point to with so much 
    pride.
    

    The entire Phoenix metro area has less than 3M, yet the Suns have been
    sold out for 5+ years running.

    
    >>The entire Phoenix metro area has less than 3M, yet the Suns have been
    >>sold out for 5+ years running.
                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Take some Kaopectate fer that, and quit drinking the water.
    
    JaKe
    

    >    Take some Kaopectate fer that, and quit drinking the water.
    
    Sorry Jake, but you only need a cork for that here.  The real bad water
    doesn't start until you hit Tucson (northern Nogales).  In fact it is
    centered around Nogales Tech (the final 4 team's school).

Keep going Tommy. Knicks have sold out 63 straight games.

So whats your next line gonna be, this is fun.

The Crazy Met

re: phoenix

yabbut there isn't a whole lot to do in Phoenix.

    	Please take this discussion about the bandwagon jumping Knick
    fans to an appropriate place, like the JUNK NOTE.
    
    				  /Don

/er does it hit too close to home to have that discussion in this note???

So it isn't fun being on the other side of things?? like last second foul
calls against the Celtics, blowing last minute leads, seeing how transient 
the fan base is. The shoe is on the other foot now.

Hopefully you will have a looooong time to get used to it.

The Crazy Met

    >yabbut there isn't a whole lot to do in Phoenix.
    
    TCM, obviously you haven't been here in a long time or you're a hermit. 
    Wintertime is the best time to be here and is also basketball season. 
    You have some of the best golf courses in the country, NASCAR & Indy
    racing, NCAA (PAC-10) football and basketball, Phoenix Roadrunners, 
    Phoenix Cardinals, sightseeing, not to mention the Planet Hollywood that 
    just opened and the Hard Rock Cafe that will open next month.

    
    So tell me, TCM, when's the last time these 'great' Knick teams sold
    out every game of a losing season?  A staunch Knick fan like yourself
    must have the answer to that right at your finger tips.
    
    brews

    I noticed many golf ads in Golf Digest (Hogan Secret issue) but am of
    the impression that Arizona is somewhat pricey.  Especially since in
    the same issue was mississippi,Alabama and northwest Fla with many
    excellent buys.
    

    >                 -< Arizona golf and accomadations tres cher? >-
    
    All the hotels & courses raise their winter rates to milk the
    snowbirds.  Rooms at the Pointe resort that are $200+/night
    in the winter are around $60/night in the summer.  This isn't a place
    people are dying to come to in the summer.

    >I noticed many golf ads in Golf Digest (Hogan Secret issue) but am of   
    >the impression that Arizona is somewhat pricey.  Especially since in   
    
    Tell me about it!  Starting tomorrow, the prices drop and we locals can
    play.  A course that goes for $25 in the summer goes for $100 in March. 
    If you do decide to come doown this way, I'll put you up at my house,
    though.  All the amentities, but I ain't heatin' up the pool for ya.
    
    brews

    re: .losing season
    
    never; how's that for an honest answer.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    	Hey Craze, I've seen enough World Championships in my lifetime
    that I don't suffer from "banner envy".  Obviously that 2TitleDynasty
    of the 70's doesn't quite fill the void for Knickerbocker fans and
    still leaves them with feelings of inadequacy.  I say be satisfied
    with what you got.
    
    				/Don

    Larry Bird has just been made the new coach of the Celtics.

    Nice Try.
    Murph
    

Are these guys tanking or what?  How else would you explain having 
a power forward handling the ball with the game in the balance?

Three (?) point game vs. the Hawks, last posession lasted night. Celtics have no
TO's, inbound to Dino Radja.  Dino dribbles past mid court, gets to the top of
the key, three defenders converge.  There goes the ball, there goes the game,
there goes another step towards a better lottery pick.

If only they hadn't won so many games early in the season...

=Bob=, don't worry about those early season wins, I have faith in Stern and
Co. to get us into the top three.........

mike

I thought I'd enter this for information's sake.  He basically analyzed the top
11 of each conference.  

Why they'll get there
----------------------
Strength in numbers.  The rapid development of rookie Dino Radja gives coach
Chris Ford no fewer than 9 players of proven talent.

Why they won't
--------------
Boston lacks strong rebounders, especially on offense.  With so few second
shots, the Celtics go to the line less than any other playoff contender.

X-factor
--------
Six Celtics were averaging in double figures in the regular season, but none of
them can be considered a big-time scorer.  Can Dee Brown, Kevin Gamble, and
Xavier McDaniel pick up the pace?

Player on the spot
------------------
Robert Parish.  When the Chief plays well, so do the Celtics.  But who knows how
fresh his 40-year-old legs will be for the postseason?

when did Collins make these analyses??

The Crazy Met

    It's from the May issue of "Inside Sports" so they're probably at least
    2 months old.

                                 No. 1  Top 3
Pos Team            W   L   Pct  Pick   Pick   Number of combinations 
 1  Dallas          11  68  .139 25.00  64.84        250
 2  Milwaukee       19  60  .241 20.30  57.10        203
 3  Minnesota       20  59  .253 16.20  48.47        162
 4  Detroit         20  59  .253 12.60  40.02        126
 5  Washington      23  56  .291  9.40  31.18         94
 6  Philadelphia    24  55  .304  6.60  22.68         66
 7  L.A. Clippers   27  52  .342  4.40  15.51         44
 8  Sacramento      27  52  .342  2.70   9.70         27
 9  Boston          31  48  .392  1.50   5.46         15
10  L.A. Lakers     33  46  .418  0.80   2.94          8
11  Charlotte       38  40  .487  0.50   1.84          5
========================================================
    Miami           41  39  .513 

    Come on Boston, you can still have a better record than the Lakers.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Why is Minnesota ahead of Detriot(tm)?
    

    	Thanks for all the memories Robert, but especially the one of
    you pummelling that whiney-faced Piston into the parquet.
    
    				  /Don

>    	Thanks for all the memories Robert, but especially the one of
>    you pummelling that whiney-faced Piston into the parquet.
    
On Patriots Day, the guys on Imus were saying that Crispus Attucks was
playing center for the Celtics the night before. 

I'll miss ol' Robert too....

    And one more time this season. Go Celtics - beat the Bulls!!!!
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>    	Thanks for all the memories Robert, but especially the one of
>    you pummelling that whiney-faced Piston into the parquet.

Zo looked like he felt bad about beating poor Robert. The question that
begs is not so much what he will do but what the hail are the Celtics
gonna do to at least get back to being competitive. They're not only a
long way from winning anything, they're a long way from getting close.

It's not just them. The powers of the 80s - Lakers, Celtics, Pistons -
all have fallen on real hard times.

TTom

We talked about this on Patriots Day.

Look for the Celtics to go for Eric Montross or Cherokee Parks.

He kind of fits their complexion, if you get my drift.....

>Look for the Celtics to go for Eric Montross or Cherokee Parks.

If'n Montross comes in for the Chief, the Celtics would actually lose
some team speed.

BTW, where was The General Sherman lasted night?

TTom

    That black-white thing about the celtics is pure bull.
    
    Yes, they draft poorly and have a bad habit from their habitual poor
    draft positions of taking long shots.  Red still thinks he's much
    smarter than the rest like he once was.
    
    If Yinka Dare was available he'd grab him in a minute.
    
    They have enough weaknesses that they may just go for a good player
    regardless of position (and certainly of color).
    
    As a sleeper I like Wingfield of Cinnci but Cs are too low for him but
    he'll be a nice grab for a seattle if he lasts.

    two more:
    
    no chance

    Check the odds.  They have a better chance at #1 than Orlando did last
    year.

    Sherm, being a 90s kinda guy, was at his -ahem- girlfriend's side,
    assisting in the birth of their first child.
    
    Don't know how his wife felt about this!  Baroom-ta-da-ching!!!
    
    NAZZ

    re -1
    
    >     Don't know how his wife felt about this!  Baroom-ta-da-ching!!!
    
    which reminds me of an all time favorite joke going thru my softball
    league a few years back:
    
    Q: Do you talk to your wife after having sex?
    
    A: Only if there's a phone in the room.

    Chief should have picked on someone his own size...

    Lissen, no team wins one, never mind three champeenships without
    a strong inside presence. Thanks Chief, You were the backbone.
    
    I got to see highlights of the fan reaction to da Chief and I wasa
    moved.
    
    Best of luck Chief, and here's hoping you end up in the C's
    organization.
    
    MikeL
    

    yup, thank you C's for lasted nights win. Now Knicks have to win
    to have home court against the Bulls. Atlanta beat Orlando which means
    that they clinched the #1 seed.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 but the Knicks ain't getting by the Nets so it means diddly.......

 Parrish still hasn't retired so this all a bit premature. Nothing stopping
 him from taking a paycut and coming back. Just hope he doesn't go to
 another team......

 mike

> but the Knicks ain't getting by the Nets so it means diddly.......

yeah, not the team I wanted to see the Knicks face in the first round.
But I am sure Tommy will try and convince me why this thinking is
wrong.

The Crazy Met

 >> yeah, not the team I wanted to see the Knicks face in the first round.
 >> But I am sure Tommy will try and convince me why this thinking is
 >> wrong.

    Why? Are the Nets-Knicks another one of those bitter crosstown rival-
    ries out of that Isles-Rangers mold? We all saw how hotly contested
    the hockey matchup was, if the Knicks and Nets is anywhere near as
    entertaining they won't be calling New York "The City That Never 
    Sleeps" anymore.
    

MikeH or TTom can you please post the results of the Nets-Knicks
matchups this year? thanks.

The Crazy Met

    Nets won the season series 4-1.  Knicks were down 3-0 before they won
    their first.

Tommy,

While I don't give two rabbit-sized doo-doos about the Knicks or Nets,
I do see one apparent fallacy that keeps popping up when you talk of
rivalries, and that is that a great rivalry ensures hotly contested games.

The Rangers outgunnged the Islanders pure and simple, because of a lot
of store-bought, high priced talent.   I don't think you can discount
the rivalry just because the contests weren't close.....


'Saw

    BTW - my oldest son and I went to the Suns-Clips game on Friday night. 
    AWA let out quite a roar when they posted the Celts-Bulls result.

I know the season series was 4-1 Nets, I wanted the scores and site where
each game was played.

The Crazy Met

    
    >> I do see one apparent fallacy that keeps popping up when you talk of
    >> rivalries, and that is that a great rivalry ensures hotly contested 
    >> games.

       That makes no sense. What the hell kind of "great" rivalry has 
       no, not one, none, zip, zilch, zero "hotly contested games".
       It was The Crazy Sandbagger who said in note 44.78, " Rangers/
       Islanders is the kind of rivalry where the heavy favorite (in 
       this case the Rangers) would be a lot happier to not have to 
       tangle with the other team (in this case the Islanders) in 
       the playoffs." Either The Crazy Holtzer didn't know what he was
       talking about (a very distinct possiblity) or there's someone
       else even lamer than the Islanders that the Rangers would rather 
       have faced. Like the last-place finishers in the Dec hockey league.
       Another The Crazy Heiserer quote,"Rangers vs. Islanders is the kind 
       of rivalry where even today when the regular season in the NHL means 
       very little, regular season games between these two teams are played 
       with the kind of intensity you only expect in the playoffs." Appar-
       ently, these two teams have it ass-backwards because their playoff
       series had the intensity of a preseason scrimmage.
    

Ya know, I have 19 years of regular season and playoffs to back me up.
Tommy is focusing on one series. Hey, games and series do not always
follow expected form. This was on of those series.

The Crazy Met

I guess I was kind of taking a larger view too.

I'm not an expert on Islanders-Rangers, by any means, only have friends
opinions to go on, but it's a helluva rivalry even if the Rangers outgunned
them this season.

'Saw

re: .354

nah not really. I did not predict that the Rangers would lose
to the Islanders just that I was very worried about that series.

The Crazy Met

Propsed trade:

Celts #1 pick and Rick Fox to Minnesota for Laettner.

Discuss.

    why would Minnesot do it??
    
    also do the Celts have space under the cap. They have 2.8 million if
    they do not sign Parish.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    	Never!  It would be a steal for the Timberwolves.               
    
    				  /Don

    Why Laettner in particular ??? Other than the obvious reason.  Is
    Minnesota shopping him ?  Besides our "strongest" position is probably
    PF. 
    
    							KB 
    strongest = a relative term

    If Boston were to do this, would that mean playing a Radja-Pinckney
    combination in the middle, with Laettner as the power forward?  It
    poses some interesting possibilities, plus it gets the Celtics out
    of the Eric Montross sweepstakes!  
    
    I would be more inclined to believe Dee Brown and the #1, since Isiah
    Rider and Doug West both occupy the same position as Fox, and Dee could
    step into Micheal Williams' position at guard for the Woofs.
    
    NAZZ

    Imagine the fear a front line of gamble, radja, and laettner would
    instill on opposing teams....
    I can think of a dozen PF's offhand I'd rather have, two dozen, if I
    really worked at it (re: your draft: I'd rather have Carlos Rogers,too)
    
    						KB 

    
    >Imagine the fear a front line of gamble, radja, and laettner would
    >instill on opposing teams....
    
    	Gamble is history with the C's. He'll sign with a western
    conference team nexted year. Another reason not to trade Fox, as he'll
    be the only small forward on the roster, unless Xman comes back...
    
    	And Laettner was complaining about the Twoofs being a weak
    rebounding team??? Wait until he get aload of the Parish-less
    Celtics nexted year!!! 
    
    
    JimH
    

Slash, you think the Jacobs boys will throw the Cletics out of the Garden
for failing to make the playoffs and costing them all that concession
money????????

mike

When was the last time the Boston Garden closed for the summer in April??

The Crazy Met

    Good question Craze..
    
    Lessee I'm gonna say at the earliest 1955... but the Broonns were
    prolly in the playoffs but I think the Cup winner was decided by April
    back then..
    
    When was the last time MSG was open in June?
    
    MikeL
    
    PS gotta figure that the "bull" gang at MSG has had it easy.. neither
    Rangers or Knicks have made them work too much OT
    

Knicks lost game 6 last year on Memorial Day and I'm guessing that
in 1973 the playoffs might have still ended in May. Which would mean
Knicks/Rangers never played in June. 

btw in the 1960's it is possible that the NBA playoffs ended in late April,
the season was shorter and there were only 2 rounds in the playoffs. Now
that I think of it the anniversary of Cousy's last game with the Celtics (ESPN,
TNT, or NBC, had a blurb on this in the last week or so)
was in April. So whatever year that was is the outside limit for
when this last happened.

But the question that you (MikeL) asked was:

> When was the last time MSG was open in June?

answer: 1993

see unlike Boston Garden, MSG has air conditioning and has events
going on all year long.

The Crazy Met

    YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT YOU PUTZ!!
    
    MikeL
    

heh heh 

The Crazy Met

    I think the famous "Havlicek stole the Ball!!" game was something like
    May 11th, which means they went into May in the 60's. 
    
    What about the late 70's?  Did the infamous Wixks/Rowe team make the
    playoffs?
    
    brews

    I'm talking about Cousy's last season which was 1963, 1964, before
    Havlicek "stole the ball".
    
    1979 Celtics did not make the playoffs, but the B's made it to the
    semi-finals and lost a 7 game series to the Canadians. I think that was
    the game with the too many men on the ice penalty late in the 3rd with
    the B's up by 2 goals.
    
    Could have been 1978 depending on what the Bruins did that year.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    >It was quite a year in 1977. 
    >Dave Cowens left the team for personal    reasons for about 40-50 games
    >(actually he retired) and came back    before the playoffs.
    
    I remember '77.  Cowens left the team to become a cab driver.  That was
    back when I was able to go to more than 1 game a year.
    
    brews

    speaking of todays globe:
    
    Larry Bird is quoted as being impressed with Montross.  Some are
    talking about his "strength".  I saw him in acc tourney be pushed
    around.  Montross last dominated in mid 92-93 and was adequate in '93
    championship.
    
    For once, I'm interested in acc's slant.  Faint praise = montross
    bashing

    Bird also said Donyell Marshall was the best in the country.  He said
    Penny Hardaway was last year.

 >  Bird also said Donyell Marshall was the best in the country.  He said

He may be right, but I'll take Kidd. If the Celts draft Montross their 
lottery position should improve nexted year.

josh

ABM - Anybody But Montross

>> ABM - Anybody But Montross

 Forget it =Bob=. Unless the balls bounce correctly and the Celtics move
 into the top three, it's a done deal. They're not singing his praises as
 a smoke screen, they want him. Gavitt's in love with the ACC and Dean.

 mike

Don't take Donyell -- not if he's ever going to have to go to the charity
stripe with a playoff game on the line....


He'd make Casey's feeble breakaway effort look like HoF material when compared
on the choke-scale.....

|>> ABM - Anybody But Montross
|
| Forget it =Bob=. Unless the balls bounce correctly and the Celtics move
| into the top three, it's a done deal. They're not singing his praises as
| a smoke screen, they want him. Gavitt's in love with the ACC and Dean.

I'm afraid you're right, I just hate top see them squander their best draft 
choice in seven years.  At least drafting the stiff will assure that they are
in the lottery nexted year too...

=Bob=

    I think Montross would look great in a Celtics uniform. Marvelous
    choice.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

|    I think Montross would look great in a Celtics uniform. Marvelous
|    choice.

Wisenheimer

    As one on the few people who believe Montross can be a decent pro, I
    still would be incredibly disappointed if they took him. They're going to
    be in the lottery for a least 2-3 more years no matter who they get.
    
    I think they gotta take Dare if he's available. This guy could be
    another Akeem in 3 years (or joe barry carroll, depending on how much he
    develops),  Montross is probably startable right now for the C's (over
    Acie..  big deal) but is probably not going to get much better and is
    certainly never going to be a playoff caliber of center.
    
    IF Dare's not available take the best "go-to guy" availble at ANY
    position and temporarilyf fill the need at center with a free agent  
    
						KB

'Scuse me but 

	"disappointed if they took him"
	"probably not going to get much better"
	"never going to be a playoff caliber of center"

sounds like you just said that Montross would *NOT* be a decent pro,
unless, of course, decent includes these things too.

TTom

    "decent" is not a great compliment
    
    examples of other "decent" pro's:
    
    	the entire celtic's starting lineup (Parish not included)
    
                                        kb

Gotcha.

Fer some reason I think of starting in the NBA as "good" but then again,
it's all relative, in the eyse of the beholder, etc.

My take on Montross is that he might start, if'n it's early and the team
is bad or at least sadly lacking. The same people that draft him cause
he's a real 7 footer might just start him. 

Soon, everyone in the league, including the fans, will notice his
incredible lack of foot speed. At that point he becomes a spot player.

TTom

    
    With his incredible lack of foot speed, I'd bring a stopwatch to see
    who would win a full court race between Montross and Acie Earl.
    Makes you wonder who loves tortoises on the Celt's scouting staff.
    
    
    MikeL
    

      <<< Note 110.389 by HBAHBA::HAAS "Maybe too much Goody's Powder" >>>
                            -< my money's on Acie >-


 you'd loose. po po Acie is the slowest, I've ever seen...He tries but 
 he just can't build up any speed............

 mike

Mike,

I feel confident in my main MTV main Montross. I've actually seen Acie
and compared to Montross he veritably motors.

So I'm standing pat, ready to take on all comers in the "NBA Slow Man
Contest".

TTom

    Chuck Nevitt?

Good ol' Chuck. Now there's some blinding speed, not!

But unlike Sir Chuck, princess-in-waiting KJ and Thundergoneoutta Dan, my
fellow Pack man has a Ring.

TTom

    Chuck's got at least one ring... maybe two...
    

    I think William Bedford does too.

    How fast is Bedford?
    How about Tree Rollins?
    

    How about Dr. J, he and his 1 ring?

Which is greater than 0...

Tree is slow. He couldn't get away from Dirty Danny Ainge in that classic
tussle where Danny tried to bite Tree's hand.

And ML Carr is kinda slow too, at least with bringing out the straight
razor, he was rumored to be holding.

TTom

yabbut ESPN showed a tape of game 2 between the Rangers and DEVILS
where Claude Lemieux was biting one of the Rangers.

The Crazy Met

    Dr. J. wasn't slow afoot last I saw... maybe now, not with the 76ers,
    Nets or Pittsburgh Pisces.
    
    I can't see Alvan Adams doing the 100 yd dash in record time either.
    

    Ainge wasn't the biter, he was the bitee.  

re: .398, .401

so who tried to bite whom??

The Crazy Met

    Dave Gavitt has just been reassigned in the front office.  ML Carr will
    be taking his place as VP of Operations.

|    Dave Gavitt has just been reassigned in the front office.  ML Carr will
|    be taking his place as VP of Operations.

AAARRRGGGHHH!

Dark days for the Celtics.  This is clearly a PR move.  ML is a great guy, but 
he has no expereince running a franchise, not even as the number 2 guy.

I wish him well, but I'm skeptical.

=Bob=.

    Now ML will teach every player to swing a towel the right way...
    
                  stig

    Has ML been working for the C's (as a scout or assistant coach) ?

|   Has ML been working for the C's (as a scout or assistant coach) ?

ML has been in charge of "community relations" for the past several years.  He
has admitted that he knows little of the draft, and will depend on others to
evaluate the talent.

GGGRRRRR

Jackie Macmullan (sp?) talks about this in her column and says it was
a great PR move but as far as building a team she is not that sure it
was the thing to do.

The Crazy Met
 

    
    
    	Yabbut double yoo bee zee radion played part of ML's "acceptance"
    speech and he sounded like he's gonna be a dictator.  "My way or the
    highway".  Supposedly he meets with Chris Ford either today or tomorrow
    and if they're not on the same page, Ford is history.
    
    I remain,
    wondering what happened to ML's commercial business (environmentally
    friendly toilet paper)?
    Kev
    

ML being in charge bodes well for Ford.  It would be tough to can an 
ex-teammate.

I heard ML talk tough.  That is not my concern. Reality is that you play the 
hand that's dealt you.  If you have a talented idiot on your team (ala Scottie
Pippen [I know, I know "there goes Bob on his Scottie Pippen thang again"]), 
it is the challenge of the management to either get the most out of him, or
make an intelligent trade.

That's what worries me about ML.  I don't think he has the background to make 
the smart personnel moves that are needed to bring the franchise back to
respectibility.

=Bob=

    
    
    	Yabbut ML did say that he's totally dedicated to restoring the
    Celts to glory and that his job is a 16-17 hour a day one.
    
    I remain,
    wondering how much $$$ he's getting?
    Kev
    

| Title:  Will Nazz get to keep his job too?
 
Nazz gives 100% every game...   

    The Globe reported that Larry Bird, who spends most of his time back
    home in French Lick, got the offer before ML Carr.  This franchise is
    in some serious disarray at the moment.  The thing I disagree with is
    that this is good PR.  I think it's terrible PR, with the potential to
    eventually be a better basketball decision than a publicity one. 
    Celtics' fans aren't stupid, and the Boston media is one of the last
    that will pull any punches in coveing this kind of a move.  I thought 
    that Jackie MacMullan's column was mostly sarcastic.  In an article that 
    initially purports that Paul Gaston is anything but dumb, she goes on
    to do everything but stick a caption reading M-O-R-O-N under the guy's 
    picture.
    
    glenn
    

    Well if its a PR move, its not a great one... and since he doesn't seem
    to have any relevant front office experience, the reason for his
    selection is one of 2 possibilities:
    
    -Somebody in the ownership or retired front office (Red ?) thinks he
    is a natural basketball genius
    
    -Nobody else wants the Job
    
    Given that the C's are on a collision course with their worst season in
    history (or at least in my memory) and there is little in terms of
    draft choices, free agent dollars, or trade bait that the C' have to change 
    it.... well, draw your own conclusions
    
    				    Good Luck ML 
                                                         

    One factor that is not mentioned a lot is Red.  I think that he has
    never given up final control over signings and draftings and whoever
    takes the GM job has to follow his lead.
    
    And this has spelled disaster for the celtics much as Gorman having to
    run everything by redsox brass made him ineffective.
    
    My sources indicate that it was Red that drafted Jon Barry who could
    not be signed.
    
    One thing is fer sure, all the speculated criticisms of M.L. are real
    critiques of the Gavitt years

    
    	Yeah, makes you wonder how much influence RED still has. Hopefully
    Red wants Yinka Dare. Maybe Gavitt wanted Montross?
    
    Ron

 Well having met ML personally and chatted with him for a while, I know
 he loves boxing and gambling. The Boxing will fit right in with the 
 style of plays the Knicks have introduced the league to and the gambling
 can only help. I'll feel real good about ML's chances of succeeding if
 gives his old buddy Ford the BOOT!!!!!!!

 I know the C's record isn't totally his fault but his style of coaching
 leaves a lot to be desired imo. I don't like guys who substitute by the
 clock or keep players in doghouses........

 mike

    Maybe I can turn my $35 a home game job into a full time role as a
    "consultant" for the team.  With, of course, maximum input from
    ::SPROTS.
    
    NAZZ

You only get input if we get a cut if the consultant fee

The Crazy Met

    Don't be silly Nazz.  The only good input you'll get is in CELTICS.

Wail if this is the start of a new administration...

The Celtics signed Dee Brown to a long-term, big-bucks contract yesterday.  I
beleive the terms were six years, $20 million, starting with $2.5 million thised
year.  Now I like Dee, but I wouldn't be willign to make this kind of investment 
in the guy, given the historical problems the Celtics have had with the salary
cap.  In addition, it caused Rick Fox's agent to "un-accept" an offer by the 
team.

In other distressign news, several publications who have done mock drafts 
(including today's Boston Globe) have the Celtics taking Eric Montross in 
tonight's draft.

=Bob=

    
    
          I tell ya I love the Celts but if they draft monstrous it's
    really gonna try my patience as a fan!
    
    
    
    Chap

    IMO, Jalen Rose would be a big mistake.  He's too lazy and from what
    I've seen of him, doesn't play the type of defense that Ford and Carr
    are looking for.  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see them pick
    Montross.  Word is they're shopping Acie for a high 2nd round pick.
    
    Rick Fox ought to take the money while he can.  He's an average player
    who's streakiness lands too often on the poor side.
    
    					Steve

 Eddie Jones Please!!!!!!!!!!
 
 they could use a slasher with potential..........

 mike

    Ted Sarandis, doc midnight's favorite eei sports guy (and that's good
    enough for me) "mocked" Jones for celts off what Ted deemed an
    outstanding workout.
    
    Now the glob (I assume it was Jackie M) said the Temple duo (McKie the
    other) workouts were lackluster.  Was that her appraisal or was she fed
    this by Red or someone (equally sinister).
    
    If C's are disinforming about Jones then perhaps he is indeed the one.
    
    I thought problem was that though outstanding Jones was not considered
    #9 quality.
    
    They should just get rid of draft and let teams sign who they want
    since there will always be a cap, official or not.
    
    billthe

 I hear you Bill. All the reports I read question whether the duo from Temple
 can play defense due to Channey's zone principals. Riley has made zone defense
 the wave of the future so what is the problem? Celtics' brass feeding
 this rubish to the locals so they can grap Montross. Reminds of when they
 passed over Tim Hardeway for Michael Smith.......

 cmon ML do the right thing not the white thingh........

 mike

When was the last time a Temple player made it in the NBA?  I wouldn't
touch these guys with a ten-foot pole.

Rick Fox might only be an average player, but you can't blame him for
asking for more money now that the Green Braintrust has just decided
that Dee Brown is a $20 million man.  Talk about rewarding mediocrity!

Ken

    	It's very seldom that Chappy and I agree, but given what will
    be there at #9 (barring a really stupid pick), Jalen Rose would be
    a very worthwhile gamble because the upside potential for this guy
    is enormous.
    
    				  /Don

    Mark Macon went to Temple, right?  Rivas didn't stick with anyone..
    

    
     Boston could trade down to Golden State still take Eddie Jones and
    whatever GS could offer. Golden State would then take Montross be-
    cause they desperately need a center. 

    In yesterday's KGME mock draft, Tommy Heinsohn picked Eddie Jones for
    the Celtics at #9.

    FWIW, I heard ML Carr on the radio last week saying that he was very
    impressed with Jalen Rose.  Granted, he didn't exactly slam anyone, 
    and he did admit that Rose didn't shoot as well in the workouts as 
    some of the other candidates, but he did sound genuinely positive 
    about Rose...
    
    glenn
    

    Rose was interviewed yesterday here and said he has kept in constant
    contact with Webber and feels he understands the transition to the NBA. 
    Denver is supposedly foaming at the mouth over him at #13.

    
    
    	Yabbut doncha know that Webber exercised some kinda option in his
    1year old contract which will make him a restricted free agent on July
    1.
    
    Should the C's try to "entice" him ta come to Beantown?
    
    I remain,
    wondering how this will pan out
    Kev
    

    From what I've heard, only Dallas is under the cap.  Boston and many
    others may not be able to afford him and Golden St. has the right to
    match anything.

Webber's not going anywhere.  Golden State can and will match any
offer made to Webber.  The reason that he and Golden State signed
this type of deal (1 year and out) was to get around the salary cap
restrictions and rework his contract after one year to an amount
they both thought was appropriate.

Ken

    Yes but Remeber Sherman Douglas, the Lakers offered something
    ridiculous, Miami matched and then for some reason the celtics
    traded for him.  Dallas could make an outragous offer, force GS
    to match and throw off there salary structure... What do you think
    a Bazzillion Dollers for 20 Years :-)
    
    Maybe he'll be around long enough to play with the moving backboards
    
    These contract are getting out of hand, the cap doesnt do squat...

    yessssss! Celtics took Montross; some more years of guaranteed
    mediocrity.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I was equally horrified that the C's took a russian in the second when
    Dontonio Wingfield (a guy who would have been a top 5 pick by his
    senior yr) among others, was still available
    
    But apparently they packaged him and Ed Pinckney for Blue Edwards and
    Derik Strong ? (or derik somebody), which is not quite as bad.
    
    I still would've taken Wingfield, but apparertly they're more
    interested in TRYING to have an adequate team (30-35 wins) next year, 
    than a good team (playoffs) down the road
    
    					KB
    
						

    I agree on dontonio wingfield.  the sleeper of the draft for me (too?).
    
    I had a long drive to take yesterday and finally concluded that celts
    would take montross and that I agreed with them.  Larry Bird
    interviewed on radio made me feel a little better about it.
    
    But which montross will show up, the 92-93 or 93-94 version.
    
    I am nervous that passing up dare may come back to haunt them but their
    experience with Acie Earl's head left them leery about any player who
    doesn't exhibit a drive to succeed (and I don't know and neither do C's
    or anyone else about Dare).

Does it get any worse than this?

Wife is out of work.  I probalby will be soon.  Times are tough, and now, worst
of all...

My beloved Celtics drafted MONTROSS.

Why me???

 geez if all they wanted was hard worker why the heck didn't they just 
 take Curley...........

 While Eric's offense maybe versitile his rebound absolutely stinks. I 
 thought that was the main job of your big man. Yes he could be a decent
 player but given the status of the team they should have gambled. Looks
 like the Gastons are following the Jacobs' brother lead..............

 mike

    I'll stick with my comments in 10.1884 and repeat that at #9,
    there's nothing wrong with a pick of Eric Montross, who has enough 
    physical attributes and skills to merit a chance as any other 
    potential #9 pick not hailing from the University of North Carolina...
    
    glenn
    

    Of course some of the player's selected after Montross will more then
    likly turn out better then him.  So far Rose, who else would have
    people selected over montross and why ?  Also remember the C's have
    no CENTER and I dont recall any FA Center's out there either ?
    
    I admit they should have tried a little harder to move down or trade
    but it doesnt look like there were too many trade's made pre draft.
    
    							MairB

    yabbut it's not like the only thing the Celtics need is a center.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    
       At least now there is some other athlete in Boston that Scott
    Cooper can beat in a foot race.
    
    Jerry

 Glenn at 6-9 Curley will get 6 or 7 rebounds a game too has better
 range than Montross, and better ball handling skills. The pluses I
 see for Eric is he can shoot with either hand and is nasty down low.

 Celtics should have just traded down.

 I would have taken Reeves, Rose, Jones, Wingate, Dare or my considered
 steal of the draft Damon Bailey before Montross.

 Did Autry get drafted?


 mike

    Autrey was not drafted,but a ton of Big East players were including:
    
    BC-Curley and Eisley
    Prov-Simpkins and Smith
    Pitt-Mobley
    St Johns-Scott 
    UConn-Marshall
    
    Notable undrafted:Karnishovas-Seton Hall,Autrey-Sysracuse

    	Montross certainly picked an appropriate number...
    
    				  /Don

 Will that be his scoring average or rebound average???????/

 ;^)

    What was it?
    

    Re. Wingfield - he was the only freshman in the draft, and the only
    player in the draft who pulled a gun on his own mother!!!!!  Wadda
    nice guy - just the type of thug the Knicks shoulda taken!
    
    Re. Montross - he goes against everything ML was preaching last week
    regarding an uptempo game and defense, so I'm betting this was not his
    pick, but a "consensus" choice.  Here's hoping he can turn into a
    servicable center who averages 12 ppg and 7 reb.  I'd take that right
    now.  Curley was simply too small and thin to take the pounding that
    a starting NBA center must endure.
    
    Re. the trade - I'll really miss Ed Pinckney, the nicest guy on the
    team, but Derek Strong is a decent player, and Blue could make the
    Celtics forget about Rick Fox real quick.  Fox's agent was an idiot to
    renege on the deal he had.  He'll never get anything near those numbers
    (averaging $1.8 million for five years) from any other team.  And the
    reason Brown got a better deal than Fox is that he's a better player.
    Simple as that.
    
    Re. free agents:  I would like to see the Celtics bring in Adrian Autry
    and Melvin Booker in for a look at backup PG.  Neither was drafted and
    both have a lot of potential.  And whatever happened to Billy
    McCaffrey?  He transferred from Duke and had a great junior year at
    Vandy, would have been a first round pick, but stayed in for his senior
    season.  Did he play that poorly so that he wouldn't even get drafted?
    
    NAZZ

The knock on McCaffrey is that while he is a good outside shooter,
he needs a screen to get his shot off; he allegedly can't create his
own shot.  Also, he has no defense to speak of.

Ken

Pervis Ellison?

Dominique Wilkins?

Geeze, have the Celtics lost it, or what?  These are NOT the guys to build on.
Between this and the Dee Brown contract, it's going to be years before we see
another contender.

=Bob=

    I agree.
    
    I'd rather get some hungry young players and turn 'em loose in an up
    tempo game. 
    
    Does anyone have the roster that the Celtics are going with in this
    New York Summer League? Anybody know what the caliber of play is?
    
    In general, I like ML's approach to his new job so far.
    
    

    	If, and it's a mighty big if, Wilkins came to the Celtics they
    would be competitive next season.  Right now "Thanks Dad" Gaston
    is more worried about selling overpriced tickets than he is about
    the future of the franchise.
    
    				   /Don

 I'd love to see Wilkins in green!

 mike

    it was my belief at the time of the nique-manning trade that atlanta
    had damaged their championship chances and in hindsite they could only
    have done better with wilkins over manning.
    
    Wilkins style had become more team oriented after his injury and I
    agree that with him and a center the c's might make it to .500.
    
    unfortunately I also agree with nazz and others that gavitt severly
    hamstrung the celts with his sherm douglas move
    
    but I hope that ml is out to mold a club in his image with full
    responsibility and authority and ford will follow his lead.
    
    I do suspect that if ford is not the coach for 95 then m.l. will take
    the reins

    
|    unfortunately I also agree with nazz and others that gavitt severly
|    hamstrung the celts with his sherm douglas move
 
Yabut Gavitt is kicked upstairs, and his successor, ML does the same thing with
Dee Brown.  I don't understand.

I don't think the Celtics would be a playoff team, even with Wilkins.  If Parish
goes, and Wilkins comes in, they will be at about the same level as lasted year.
(I know, there I go overrating Robert Parish again).  I'd rather see them hit
bottom, and get a low lottery pick.

=Bob=

> I'd love to see Wilkins in green!

But Mike, 'Nique is telling everyone who will listen that he's going to
be a Knick !

> I'd love to see Wilkins in green!

> But Mike, 'Nique is telling everyone who will listen that he's going to
> be a Knick !


 wouldn't surprise me. Knicks have been trying to buy their way to the top
 for years..............

 mike

'Nique told everyone that he would be a Knick IF the court ruled
in favor of the players and threw out the salary cap.  They didn't
and it's now unlikely that he'll sign with the Knicks because they
do not have a sizable salary slot for him.

Ken

> wouldn't surprise me. Knicks have been trying to buy their way to the top
> for years..............

Whoa, Mike !!!  Buy their way to the top ?  Last year's roster had only 2
players who were signed as NBA free agents:  Herb Williams and Anthony Bonner...
hardly major purchases.  The rest of 'em were either drafted (Ewing, Davis,
Anthony), traded for (Smith, Oakley, Harper, Rivers, Blackman), or signed as
CBA-or-the-like free agents (Mason, Starks, Anderson, Gaines).

Checketts and Riley have done a fine job of putting together a contender
with what they started with.  Charles Smith was supposed to be a significant
player, and he is not.  Dominque Wilkins would be a significant player,
and signing him would qualify as "buying" that last step to the title.

     
    
    RE: Checketts and Riley have put together a fine team with what they 
    started with???
    
    Ah, excuse me but, starting out with Ewing isn't exactly chopped liver!
    
    IMHO, they should have a Championship by now.

 trading for players imo is an attemp to buy the championship. Especially
 when the said player is playing for a club that can't afford him.

> trading for players imo is an attemp to buy the championship.

Parish and McHale ?  Dennis Johnson ?


re:  Ewing

Put him on the current Celtics...do they win the championship ?
That's a ridiculous statement.  Their piss-poor mgmt during the
'80s never got him anyone to play with.

    
    
    RE: put him on the current Celtics...do they win the championship?
    
    NO, but if they had him over the last 8-10 years...they would have!!!

> trading for players imo is an attemp to buy the championship.

>> Parish and McHale ?  Dennis Johnson ?


 Right but atleast when the Celtics went out to buy a championship they
 end up bagging 3 of em.............

 ;^)

>    NO, but if they had him over the last 8-10 years...they would have!!!

They didn't have Al Bianchi running the team either...

also of significant note about the Celtics buying championships vs the
Knicks' buying prowness, the Celtics won with K.C. Jones at the helm
not the sensational Patty Riley.......

 snicker snicker.......

 mike

Re.

 > also of significant note about the Celtics buying championships vs the
 > Knicks' buying prowness, the Celtics won with K.C. Jones at the helm
 > not the sensational Patty Riley.......

Right.  The sensational Pat Riley was busy on the other coast winning
four titles at the time.

Ken

>Right.  The sensational Pat Riley was busy on the other coast winning
>four titles at the time.

Yabbut if the Celtics had Patrick Ewing and Magic Johnson they mighta
won lasted year!

Sheesh. If Riley hadn't won 4 with Kareem and Magic he woulda been
run outta town.

josh

Re.

 > also of significant note about the Celtics buying championships vs the
 > Knicks' buying prowness, the Celtics won with K.C. Jones at the helm
 > not the sensational Patty Riley.......

>> Right.  The sensational Pat Riley was busy on the other coast winning
>> four titles at the time.

 Hey, I don't recall asking any Lakers' fans for their opinions!  ;^)

 But anyways all Riley basically had to do back then was qualify for the
 playoffs to make it to the finals with the caliber of the talent out west.
 Certainly the Lakers bought more than a few players to help ease Patty's
 road..........


 mike

    Hey Mike
    
    Do you think the celtics would have dominated out east without Bird?
    btw is KC coaching anywere right now???(:
    
    Frank

    Well, how do all of you Celts fan feel about havin the "Human Highlight
    Film"  aka "assist, whats an assist" aka 'Nique, a part of your
    organization?
    
    I think he's still trying to sell his Atlanta house!
    
    UMDan
    

|    Well, how do all of you Celts fan feel about havin the "Human Highlight
|    Film"  aka "assist, whats an assist" aka 'Nique, a part of your
|    organization?
 
I personally don't like it.  Doesn't seem like a rebuilding move to me.  In fact
of all the ML Carr moves so far, I'd have to say I don't like most of them:

	Drafting Montross		don't like

	Trading Pickney and #2 
	for Edwards and Strong		like

	Siging Dee Brown to
	a long term, big-buck
	deal.				don't like

	Sigining a 34 year old
	Wilkins				don't like   
 
Gonna be a long decade.

=Bob=

    
        Signing Dominique was another short-term move to keep
       the fans happy and not the kind of long-term rebuild
       that we were promised by ML. He's a box office name that
       will keep the casual yuppie fans at the Gahden happy until
       the new building opens to keep 'em happy for a few more and
       meanwhile the 'Tics won't have won a title in over ten years.
       It's the old bandaid on a chest wound approach that we've 
       come to expect from the theatre of the absurd that the front
       office of this once proud organization has become. I'd rather
       suffer through one or two or three more really bad years in
       exchange for some draft picks than get an aging scorer (and 
       not much more) that will make us just good enough to stay out 
       of the lottery.

   >     Signing Dominique was another short-term move to keep
   >    the fans happy 

Right, and a good one. This will take some of the pressure off ML
and allow him a few seasons to get his act together. 

   >	and not the kind of long-term rebuild
       that we were promised by ML. He's a box office name that

Here I disagree. 'Nique will preserve Chief's salary slot for a few
years. There's no one available worth the slot this year except maybe
Grant, and a PF isn't what we need. Face it - until we can ditch
Sherman Douglas this team isn't going anywhere. Signing 'Nique, IMO,
is an excellent long term move. Let's see what else ML can come up 
with - we've got Blue, Dee and Sherman in the backcourt, and Dino,
'Nique and Montross up front. Could be fun to watch. Maybe ML can
trade Fox for a future PG...Charlie Ward comes to mind.....

josh

    I haven't picked up a paper yet today, but what is this that
    I am hearing about the Celtics asking Chicago to talk to Jordan?
    
    
    Steve

|    I haven't picked up a paper yet today, but what is this that
|    I am hearing about the Celtics asking Chicago to talk to Jordan?

In a word - OY.  

Carr is supposedly offereing Chicago a first rounder just to TALK to Michael 
about coming back.

I'm sure Jerry Krause got a good laugh about it.

=Bob=

    
    Wow is Carr pulling at straws.  Granted if he ever pulled this off
    it would be a GREAT deal.   But if it busts and he does give up 
    a number 1 pick... It will be just like the 3 #1 picks for MacAdoo
    which busted!
    
    

    
|    Wow is Carr pulling at straws.  Granted if he ever pulled this off
|    it would be a GREAT deal.   But if it busts and he does give up 
|    a number 1 pick... It will be just like the 3 #1 picks for MacAdoo
|    which busted!
 
Yabut, luckily I don't think Jerry Krause took him too seriously. 

    I think a #1 Pick just to talk would be a waste, for 2 reasons
    1-they have no slot to fit him, 2-Still dont think he'll be back
    playing basketball
    
    Chicago would be stupid not to take the pick just to allow carr to
    talk to jordan, he's doing chicago no good playing baseball, and if
    they cant get him to come back then he's useless to them.  Of course
    he could do alot of damage against the bulls should he ever come back.
    
    								MaB

  Well remember, we don't know what the deal really may have been if it was
ever discussed at all. This story was reported Sunday night on Bob Lobel's
Sports Spotlight as a rumor that Lobel had heard. That means that he probably
overheard the tail end of a "what if" type discussion by two cameramen at the
WBZ studio.

  Also, Dan Shaughnessy was present at the studio during the taping of the
program so the possibility exists that the rumor was drastically distorted or
completely fabricated. 

  George

    ML commented on it yesterday at the news conference and confirmed he
    called Jerry Krause.

    It looks like ML has already "talked" to Michael via the media, nice
    job ML, my faith in you is looking good.
    
    Now it's Michael's turn to say "Gee, I'd always dreamed of being a
    Celtic and that's the only place I'd play in nba, too bad Chicago won't
    make a deal with C's since I'm never going to play for Bulls again
    anyway"

How did the Celtics get Wilkins in under the cap? Is it a one year type
deal like Portland used??

The Crazy Met

ML, yer killing me! This is big fun! He's playing every
possible angle, signing 'Nique, creating FUD among other
GMs, what's he gonna do next? If he gets Ellison the
C's are gonna *tough* thisted year.

He's done more in a month than Gavitt did in years.

josh 

    RE: .491
    
    Money from not signing Parish was used towards signing Wilkins.

    
    
>How did the Celtics get Wilkins in under the cap? Is it a one year type
>deal like Portland used??
    
    
    	Easy. The Celtics had the biggest salary cap exception slot in the
    NBA. The only teams who could have offered Wilkins more money than
    Boston were the Clippers (who did ~$7m/yr) and teams under the salary
    cap (Detroit. anybody else???)
    
    	Parish's salary slot was $2.8M, which is what Wilkins starts out
    at. After one year, he can exercise an escape clause and become a 
    free agent again. If not the second year of the contract is worth
    $3.64M (a 30% increase, max allowed under the cap). The last year of
    the contract is worth $4.5M.
    
    JimH
    
    

    
    
    	Yabbut with thisted ML wantin ta get Jordan,
    
    the only thing missing is Dancin Harry or Da Gorilla to make this
    circus really a circus!
    
    I remain,
    suspicios that DiNz has reported some missin 'shrooms near So. Station
    Kev
    

>Face it - until we can ditch
>Sherman Douglas this team isn't going anywhere.

Why this constant picking on Sherman Douglas ?

Douglas isn't the person to blame for the current state the Celtics are
in.  IMO, there are many factors that have played a part in why they
are where they are.  Start with Jan Volk, Dave Gavitt, the new ownership,
the Brian Shaw mess, Len Bias doing cocaine, the Reggie Lewis tragedy,
keeping the Big-3 in the family long after their usefulness to the Celtics
was over, signing X...

Sherman Douglas probably did more good things on the floor than any
other Celtic in '93-94.  And he'll probably look much better to his
critics this year, when he actually has someone to pass the ball to
who can do something with it.  But then we'll hear how he has miraculously
transformed into a great point guard.


>trade Fox for a future PG...Charlie Ward comes to mind.....

This assumes the Knicks would want Rick Fox   :^)

    
      
        Dominique is going to take the money for one year in Boston
       and then exercise his option and bail out to a contender *who
       can pay him* for what will probably be the last years of career. 
       As far as ML trading the first round pick for the right to talk 
       to Jordan... He may as well be talking about the right to talk 
       to Elvis. No one can take him seriously either way. It makes good 
       press and drums up interest when the 'Tics are about the 4th most 
       popular pro team in town but Don King will be the DAR's Man Of The 
       Year before Michael Jordan wears a Celtics uniform and everyone
       knows it.

>Why this constant picking on Sherman Douglas ?
>Douglas isn't the person to blame for the current state the Celtics are

Very true. But it is my opinion that Douglas is a big problem in the
re-building process, both because of his contract and his style. He
weak defensively, and his herky-jerky offense throws other players off 
their timing. He's great on an expansion team where the focus is on
one-on-one play, but the C's will need a passer. 

If I'm in ML's shoes I leave him unprotected in the upcoming expansion
draft.

josh 

    As a former Sryacuse fan, I've always liked Sherm
    
    but he has two basic problems
    
    1) As mention, he's overpaid
    
    2) Rick Fox syndrome. If you start him, he plays good enough to be a
    solid backup/spark of the bench. BUT, if you bring him off the bench, he 
    loses his confidence, consentration,etc...and plays less than CBA level
    
                                    KB

Re.

 > He's great on an expansion team where the focus is on
 > one-on-one play, but the C's will need a passer. 

Douglas came very close to breaking Bob Cousy's record for most assists
in a season for a Celtic.  He is the best passing point guard they've
had since Tiny Archibald.

Ken

>	He may be the best "passing" point guard, but I would take Dennis
>Johnson over him any day.

True, but how DJ's are in the NBA today ?

    	The NBA would never draft DJ today.  Too slow, can't shoot and
    with those ugly freckles, low marketability potential.
    
    				  /Don

    DJ was a much better passer than Sherm. The only reason his assists
    totals weren't higher was because Bird was on the team and frequently
    ran the offense. Besides, Sherm's assists all come at unimportant
    times, where DJ was great in the clutch. Totally objective opinion, of
    course.
    
    Chris 

No question that D.J. was a better player than Sherm, but he was
really a shooting guard who was converted to the point when he came
to Boston.  He was a great defensive guard and a clutch shooter,
but his playmaking skills were limited to lobbing the ball into Bird
or McHale in the post and then getting out of the way.  Sherm is
much more of a creator.

Ken

    
    
>...  He was a great defensive guard and a clutch shooter,
>but his playmaking skills were limited to lobbing the ball into Bird
>or McHale in the post and then getting out of the way.
    
    
    Ken, I'll agree that DJ will never be held up as an example of a 
    prototype Point Guard. But you terribly understate his playmaking
    skills. His bullet passes to Bird on back-door layups were a thing of
    beauty. He was also a pretty smart player, especially in the half-court
    offense which the mid-80s Celtics so heavily relied upon. 
    
    If the current version of the Knicks had a PG as proficient as DJ at
    running the half-court, they'ld all have rings by now.
    
    For that matter, if making those "lob it into the post" passes are so
    easy, how come Kenny Smith hit the guy sitting in the 3rd row as often
    as he hit Hakeem????
    
    Next it will be, "Bird wasn't that good of a shooter, and McHale had
    a couple of nice low-post moves." :-)
    
    JimH
    
    

    Mentioning DJ and Sherm in the same sentence is a travesty. I
    will never do it again.
    
    LK, don't talk stats to me about PGs. They're very misleading,
    particularly in Sherm's case. A playmaker does lots of other
    things, passes that lead to other passes, spacing, play-calling,
    etc. AllSherm does is make the *obvious* play, sometimes. And
    look at the TEAM assists. What are Mark Price's assist numbers
    like? IMO he's a better PG than Stockton.
    
    I'll trade ya Sherm for Van Exel, straight up. How about it?
    
    josh

Re.

 > If the current version of the Knicks had a PG as proficient as DJ at
 > running the half-court, they'ld all have rings by now

Actually, Derek Harper was probably the team's MVP in the finals.  That
wasn't their problem.  He just didn't have anyone to pass it to.  I
think a better way of looking at it is to say that if the Knicks had
Larry Bird or Kevin McHale instead of Charles Smith in the frontcourt
they would be wearing rings right now.

But I will grant you that DJ was better than Kenny Smith. ;)

Re. 

 > I'll trade ya Sherm for Van Exel, straight up. How about it?

Josh, when I was praising Sherm's passing and playmaking abilities,
I was doing it within the context of the Celtics.  In other words,
for a Celtic point guard, Sherm is pretty good.  But naturally I
wouldn't want that fat tank on the Lakers!

Ken

    
    
    
>Actually, Derek Harper was probably the team's MVP in the finals.
    
    
    	Harper?? Harper???, Oh ya, I remember, he's the guy who kept
    passing the ball to Starks in Game 7, right??? Yup, great point guard!
    
    JimH
    
    :-)
    
    

    re: Harper
    
    C'mon, LK. Harper had no one to pass it to? I guess that's why he
    kept throwing it to the photographers. It was Ewing's fault. He
    shoulda been standing where the ball went. Right. Don't get me wrong,
    Harper played a real good series, but the one thing he can't do is
    pass. With a good PG you just don't have those 8 minute scoring 
    droughts.
    
    josh

  
 I like the trade. It should make them a better team especially if Pervis
 is healthy and here. I think that one's supposed to be announced today.
 Nique is the scorer they've been missing. Hopefully Douglas will cut 
 down on his turnovers, Fox's minutes will be limited, Radja won't frown
 when Nique becomes the man and Dee plays to his contract. Another move
 or two and this team could compete in what's obviously a league without
 a dominate team. It certainly takes the sting out of the Montross pick
 and means Montross doesn't have to be a savior just and a better than
 Joe Klien type of ballplayer.

 We've been away from the top for too long now. We need to wheel and deal
 and get back now not in three years through the draft imo.......

 mike 

C's signed Ellison using Gamble's slot. Not sure what sll the trade and
signings will do for the C's but it certainly shows that there is a 
way to change a team within the salary cap. Gavitt had no clue.

The Crazy Met

from note 174.etc.

>>    It's a franchise in decline 
>>    and Carr is desperately trying to stop the slide.

I agree with KB in .29.  I would have preferred to suffer through a horrendous 
season nexted year, getting the team in line for a good draft pick, and 
rebuilding, than making the moves taht they did, and assuring mediocrity.  The
worst move of all was the Dee Brown signing.  Brown is a talented player, but
not a future-builder type.

But then again, I usually go to one game a year max...

=Bob=

  Some of the earlier replies bring up an interesting question. If the Celtics
deliberately went out and signed mediocre players to short term contracts over
the next couple years they would get great draft picks. They could even claim
that the players they signed the 1st year had the "Hellenic flu" and couldn't
play their 1st season guaranteeing a couple last place finishes in a row and a
high chance at some good picks. 

  Then they could groom this new team, add some journeymen players for filler
and off they'd go. 

  Would that work?

  Would that be allowed by the NBA?

  Why doesn't every team with aging players do that?

  George

    
    >> Some of the earlier replies bring up an interesting question. 
    
       Not really.
    
    >> If the Celtics deliberately went out and signed mediocre players 
    >> to short term contracts over the next couple years they would get 
    >> great draft picks. 
    
       Not really again. If they stunk bad enough they would be guaranteed
       a pick in the top 11. That's not necessarily a "great" pick.
    
    >> They could even claim that the players they signed the 1st year had 
    >> the "Hellenic flu" and couldn't play their 1st season guaranteeing a 
    >> couple last place finishes in a row and a high chance at some good picks. 

       I'm sure this would go over real big with the NBA's front office not
       to mention Celtics fans everywhere. This would definitely be a case
       for "George Maiewski, Amateur Attorney!!!"

    >> Would that work?

       No.
    
    >> Would that be allowed by the NBA?

       No.
    
    >> Why doesn't every team with aging players do that?

       It's a dumb idea.
  

  As I understand, if you finish low enough you have a higher probability of
getting a 1st, 2nd, or 3rd pick. 

  So what would prevent a team from signing some nobodys playing a couple
terrible years then getting a few better picks? Why wouldn't it work? 

  George

ML is doing a great job. The way to rebuild is NOT THE DRAFT! A
crap shoot is not a good place to plan your financial security. 
The way to rebuild is to work the cap, create slots that are
available when key players go FA, and grab 'em. The C's are
setting themselves up for 3 years down the road, when 'Nique
retires. They will then have the Douglas contract, Reggie's 
contract and Chiefs (via Nique) all available, and will go
after established NBA stars, instead of paying some unproven
kid megabucks on a hope he comes through. Meanwhile, Dee and
Dino will have matured into excellent role players.

Parade in 98! ;)

josh

    If your going to rebuild thru the draft (Youth Movement) you have to
    strick while the sticking is there...
    
    They could have traded Mchale/Parish back 3-7 years ago and may have
    landed a young stud/good Draft pick out of it.  Not too mention if they
    could have moved fox or brown they should have :-).
    
    This being faithful to your again players is at the expense of the
    fans and no one else.  What good did it do to keep parish the last 3-5
    years and now let him go and finish his last 2 somewhere else ?  Plus
    they didnt get SQUAT for him ?
    
    They will be medioca for the next 3 years (And Counting).  If we could
    go back to 87 (Dig Up those Archives) I made a statement in the notes
    file and to one of my Co-Workers that the Lakers/Celtics would not win
    a championship for 5 years.  Well I was wrong its 6 and counting....
    
    I remember my first few years with my group (85, 87...) there were a
    few Die Hard Celts/Lakers fans and being a bulls fan was tough... But
    I feel real bad for the fans of those teams that made all there moves
    based on staying medioca and filling the areana and never looking at
    the future...
    
    								mab

    
    
  >> The way to rebuild is to work the cap, create slots that are
  >> available when key players go FA, and grab 'em. 
    
     The last five champions - the Rockets, the Bulls, the Pistons,
     the Celtics and the Lakers were all led by player(s) acquired
     through the draft. Any FAs on those teams were by and large
     role players. Hired guns don't win championships. They can con-
     tribute but you don't win the big one by "working the cap". At
     least no one has yet. No matter what, we're going to have to 
     endure three or four years of mediocrity around these parts. I'd
     just rather have potentially the next Michael Jordan at the end 
     of the rainbow than an aging Horace Grant. Unfortunately, this is 
     the town where the Bill Russell led 'Tics dynasty couldn't sell out
     every night. ML knows that if he puts three back to back stinkeroo
     season together not only will he be out of a job but the new Shawmut
     Center will be deader than Madonna's caeer.

$!
$!    ** All times are in Boston's EST zone **
$!
$!    Command format:   
$!    
$!    $ @celtics p1 p2 p3
$!
$!    p1 = item to search for, such as opponent's name, TV station, day of week)
$!    p2 = forecasting switch; enter Y to enable; N or blank to disable
$!    p3 = if p2 is Y, enter a number from 1-125; 7 is the default
$!    
$ Save_Message = F$Environment("Message")
$ Set Message/Nosever/Noid/Notext/Nofac
$ Say :== Write sys$output
$!
$! Set up some date and time constants based on today's date
$!
$ TODAYS_DATE = F$CVTIME(F$TIME(),"ABSOLUTE","DATE")
$ TODAY_DAY= "''f$extract(0,2,TODAYS_DATE)'"
$ TODAY_MONTH=f$extract(3,3,TODAYS_DATE)
$ TODAY_YEAR=f$extract(7,4,TODAYS_DATE)
$ TODAY_DOW = "''f$cvtime(TODAYS_DATE,,"WEEKDAY")'"
$ THIS_FILE = f$environment("procedure")
$!
$! Validate the first parameter. Default to today's date.
$!
$ gametoday = TODAY_MONTH + "-" + TODAY_DAY
$ If P1 .eqs. "" 
$ then 
$	lookingfortoday = "TRUE"
$	p1 = "''gametoday'"
$	Say "Today's Boston Celtics' basketball game: "
$ else
$ 	Say "Selected Boston Celtics' basketball game(s): "
$ 	lookingfortoday = "FALSE"
$ endif
$!
$! Search for the specified value ( team, date, etc.) Check the status
$! of the search and print a success or failure message.
$!
$ search 'THIS_FILE' "''p1'"
$ is_there = $status
$ if is_there .eqs. "%X08D78053" 
$ then 
$	if lookingfortoday then Say "No game today."
$	if .not. lookingfortoday then Say "No game found containing ""''P1'""."
$ endif
$!
$! If P2 is "Y" then we are forecasting - look at the next n days, where
$! n is specified in P3.
$!
$next_n_days:
$ if P2 .eqs. "Y" 
$ then
$	! Default to the next 7 days. Look in P3 for another value.
$	if P3 .eqs. "" .or. P3 .eqs. " " then P3 = 7
$	if f$type(P3) .nes. "INTEGER" .or. -
	   P3 .lt. 1 .or. -
	   P3 .gt. 125
$		then
$			say "Invalid parameter: P3 must be an integer from 1-125."
$			goto done
$		endif
$ else
$      goto done
$ endif
$!
$! Loop oover the next n days, looking for games.
$!
$ Say "Boston Celtic games in next "+"''P3'"+" days:"
$!
$! Start with the first day, to build the search string
$!
$ count = 1
$ SEARCH_DATE = F$CVTIME( "''TODAYS_DATE'+''COUNT'-0:0:0.0", "ABSOLUTE","DATE" )
$ SEARCH_MONTH = F$CVTIME( SEARCH_DATE, "ABSOLUTE", "MONTH")
$ SEARCH_DAY = F$CVTIME( SEARCH_DATE, "ABSOLUTE", "DAY")
$!
$! Zero-Fill date values
$!
$ if SEARCH_DAY .lt. 10 then SEARCH_DAY = "0''SEARCH_DAY'"
$ if lookingfortoday .eqs. "FALSE"
$	then
$		SEARCH_STRING = "''gametoday',"
$	else
$		SEARCH_STRING = ""
$	endif
$ SEARCH_STRING = SEARCH_STRING + "''SEARCH_MONTH'-''SEARCH_DAY'"
$!
$! Now loop over the number of days specified
$!
$search_loop:
$ count = count + 1
$ if count .gt. P3 then goto do_search
$!
$! Use the time functions to build a date string, so we don't have to do the
$! checking ourselves
$!
$ SEARCH_DATE = F$CVTIME( "''TODAYS_DATE'+''COUNT'-0:0:0.0", "ABSOLUTE","DATE" )
$ SEARCH_MONTH = F$CVTIME( SEARCH_DATE, "ABSOLUTE", "MONTH")
$ SEARCH_DAY = F$CVTIME( SEARCH_DATE, "ABSOLUTE", "DAY")
$ if SEARCH_DAY .lt. 10 then SEARCH_DAY = "0''SEARCH_DAY'"
$ SEARCH_STRING = SEARCH_STRING + ",''SEARCH_MONTH'-''SEARCH_DAY'"
$ goto search_loop
$!
$! Actually do the search
$!
$do_search:
$ search 'THIS_FILE' 'SEARCH_STRING'
$ if $status .eqs. "%X08D78053" then -
	say "No games found in the next ''P3' days."
$ goto done
$!
$! Playoff schedule isn't determined yet.
$!
$say_playoffs:
$ SAY "Playoffs due to start... schedule is TBD!!!"
$ goto done
$ done:
$ set mess'Save_Message'
$ EXIT
NOV-04     New York      7:30     Friday  
NOV-05  at Indiana       7:30     Saturday   
NOV-11     Houston       7:30     Friday  
NOV-12  at Minnesota     8:00     Saturday   
NOV-15  at Atlanta       7:30     Tuesday   
NOV-16     Seattle       7:30     Wednesday  
NOV-18  at Miami         7:30     Friday   
NOV-19  at Washington    7:30     Saturday   
NOV-22     Milwaukee     7:30     Tuesday   (Hartford) 
NOV-23     Charlotte     7:30     Wednesday  
NOV-25     Orlando       7:30     Friday  
NOV-26  at Philadelphia  7:30     Saturday   
NOV-30     Detroit       7:30     Wednesday  
DEC-02     Phoenix       7:30     Friday  
DEC-03  at Chicago       8:30     Saturday   
DEC-06  at New York      7:30     Tuesday   
DEC-07     Atlanta       7:30     Wednesday  
DEC-09     Cleveland     7:30     Friday  
DEC-10  at New Jersey    7:30     Saturday   
DEC-12     Denver        7:30     Monday  
DEC-14  at San Antonio   8:30     Wednesday   
DEC-15  at Dallas        8:30     Thursday   
DEC-17  at Houston       8:30     Saturday   
DEC-19  at Denver        9:00     Monday   
DEC-23     Philadelphia  7:30     Friday  
DEC-26  at Cleveland     1:00     Monday   
DEC-28     Chicago       7:30     Wednesday  
DEC-30  at Detroit       8:00     Friday   
JAN-04     Miami         7:30     Wednesday  
JAN-06     Portland      7:30     Friday  
JAN-07  at Charlotte     7:30     Saturday   
JAN-09     Washington    7:30     Monday  
JAN-11     Indiana       7:30     Wednesday  
JAN-13     Utah          8:00     Friday  
JAN-15     Sacramento    7:00     Sunday  
JAN-17     San Antonio   7:30     Tuesday  
JAN-18  at Miami         7:30     Wednesday   
JAN-20     L.A. Lakers   7:30     Friday  
JAN-21  at Atlanta       7:30     Saturday   
JAN-24  at Orlando       7:30     Tuesday   
JAN-25     L.A. Clippers 7:30     Wednesday  
JAN-27     Golden State  7:30     Friday  
FEB-01     Charlotte     7:30     Wednesday  
FEB-04  at New Jersey    8:00     Saturday   
FEB-05     Minnesota     7:00     Sunday  
FEB-08     Cleveland     7:30     Wednesday  
FEB-12     All-Star Game 6:00     Sunday    (Phoenix)
FEB-14  at Sacramento    10:30    Tuesday   
FEB-15  at Golden State  10:30    Wednesday   
FEB-17  at L.A. Clippers 10:30    Friday   
FEB-18  at Utah          9:00     Saturday   
FEB-21  at Phoenix       9:00     Tuesday   
FEB-23     Orlando       7:30     Thursday  (Hartford) 
FEB-24  at Orlando       7:30     Friday   
FEB-27     Indiana       7:30     Monday  
MAR-01     Washington    7:30     Wednesday  
MAR-03     Milwaukee     7:30     Friday  
MAR-04  at Indiana       7:30     Saturday   
MAR-07  at New York      7:30     Tuesday   
MAR-08     New York      7:30     Wednesday  
MAR-10     New Jersey    7:30     Friday  
MAR-12     Atlanta       2:30     Sunday  
MAR-14  at Seattle      10:00     Tuesday   
MAR-16  at Portland     10:00     Thursday   
MAR-17  at L.A. Lakers  10:30     Friday   
MAR-19  at Milwaukee     2:30     Sunday   
MAR-22     Chicago       7:30     Wednesday  
MAR-24  at Philadelphia  7:30     Friday   
MAR-25  at Detroit       7:30     Saturday   
MAR-28  at Miami         7:30     Tuesday   
MAR-30  at Chicago       8:30     Thursday   
MAR-31     Miami         7:30     Friday  
APR-02     Dallas        4:00     Sunday  
APR-04  at Cleveland     7:30     Tuesday   
APR-07     Philadelphia  7:30     Friday  
APR-09  at Washington    1:00     Sunday   
APR-10  at Charlotte     7:30     Monday   
APR-13     Orlando       7:30     Thursday  
APR-15     Detroit       7:30     Saturday  (Hartford) 
APR-17     New Jersey    7:30     Monday  
APR-19  at Milwaukee     8:30     Wednesday   
APR-21     New York      7:30     Friday  
APR-23  at New Jersey    6:00     Sunday   

    Len Bias is a good example of risks of draft
    
    Celtics are public and owe return on Investor's $
    
    And for all we know C's may be executing your plan George but I hope to
    see them maximizing competitiveness

    we might end up with a good pick anyway. 
     
    I believe that if everything
    goes right, this team has a good shot of being a .500 or better team, 
    
    BUT if
      Pervis goes down with his usual yearly injury (70% probablity)
      Dominique is injured (10%) or has less left in him than is thought (25%)
      or is not really capable of carrying a team on his back (40%)
    
    then this team is back in the lottery, and everybodys ?happy? 
    
    							KB

    but in the meantime, ML has at least made the SUMMER interesting for
    Celtics fans
    
    						KB

What ML is doing does not preclude making a good draft pick. To
win a championship you need a lucky draft pick AS WELL as working
the cap and maximizing the FA market. Pippin was a lucky draft pick,
for example. No matter what ML does he will get good draft picks for 
a few years, not to worry you lottery fans. But he also has to sell
tickets and work the cap, else he will be job hunting. IMO he's doing
a great job.

josh  

    How do you get tix for games in Haafud...

    
      ML looks great in comparison to Dave Gavitt. Hard to imagine
     fainter praise though, isn't it? What ML has done in reality is
     sign a big name 34 year old who has depended on athletic pyro-
     technics his entire career and will cry for the the ball in the 
     third quarter of a 4 for 35 night. To go with that he has signed 
     an agile but fragile four or five spot player who has loads of
     potential but is more injury prone than Fire Marshall Bill. Let's
     not build any monuments yet.

   >   ML looks great in comparison to Dave Gavitt. Hard to imagine

Exactly. While his moves with Nique and Nervous might not work out in
the short term, they will definitely help long term by creating slots.
Being GM in the NBA is like a poker game - you collect cards and pick
the right moment to play them. Meanwhile you bluff and smile and distract
the competition any way you can (MJ). Once you have a "dynasty", you can
make it last by careful timing, by making sure you have a slot when the 
right player is available. The C's did that beautifully up the death of 
Bias - they had played all their cards to get him, and he was the tran-
sition to the post-Bird generation. When they lost Bias the years of post-
Bird depression were inevitable, and the Reggie tragedy made it that much 
worse. OKay, everyone gets snake bit, but if Bias and Reggie were here
the C's would still be on top.

So ML has to recover from that, which means protecting Parish's slot
until he can fill it properly (Nique), recovering from the Douglas
contract fiasco, and waiting for Reggie's slot to return (I forget
how that works). He did the best he could do in the short term. If
he had more time maybe Horace Grant would be in green, who knows,
but let's see what he can pull of nexted year. I *love* his ability
to pull the trigger on a deal after years of Gavitt frustration.

josh

    I have heard a theory that Gavitt did not make the Barry pick, that Red
    did it on his own and from their Gavitt never really tried but just did
    the job committee style assumming that's what C's wanted.  I'm sure dg
    will have his say on his celtic years when he's free to do so.
    
    I'm sure he'd say about Ellison and 'nique: "I could've done that but
    C's wouldn't have let ME.
    
    Key to the whole thing is the Montross gamble.

  >> Meanwhile you bluff and smile and distract the competition any way 
  >> you can (MJ). 

     No one in the Boston area took those overtures at Michael Jordan
     seriously. No one. Nobody. It made nice press and was mildly
     amusing but we didn't expect to see Michael in a 'Tics uniform
     in this lifetime.

   >> Once you have a "dynasty", you can make it last by careful timing, 
   >> by making sure you have a slot when the right player is available. 
   >> The C's did that beautifully up the death of Bias - they had played 
   >> all their cards to get him, 

      I don't remember the 'Tics "playing all of their cards" to get Bias.
      As I remeber it they literally hit the lottery when as a budding 
      dynasty the came up with the second pick overall in the draft while
      giving up next to nothing.
    

RE        <<< Note 110.530 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove!" >>>

>      I don't remember the 'Tics "playing all of their cards" to get Bias.
>      As I remeber it they literally hit the lottery when as a budding 
>      dynasty the came up with the second pick overall in the draft while
>      giving up next to nothing.
    
  No, what happened was that they traded Gerald Henderson to Seattle for their
1st round pick the following year. Seattle finished in the bottom 9 giving
the Celtics a pick in the lottery. They drew a high slot and picked Bias.

  George

>>      I don't remember the 'Tics "playing all of their cards" to get Bias.
>>      As I remeber it they literally hit the lottery when as a budding 
>>      dynasty the came up with the second pick overall in the draft while
>>      giving up next to nothing.
    
>  No, what happened was that they traded Gerald Henderson to Seattle for their
> 1st round pick the following year. Seattle finished in the bottom 9 giving
> the Celtics a pick in the lottery. They drew a high slot and picked Bias.

  
 So that bum Danny Ainge could start. The start of the new white regime at
 headquarters........

 rrrggghhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!

 mike

    I knew I couldn't stay away too long.  This is my first note since
    coming back.
    
    Josh is 100% correct regarding the Celtics future.  The Nique signing
    has set them up perfectly for three years down the road, and made them
    competitive in a weak Eastern conference right now.
    
    Sherman Douglas has three years remaining on that monstrosity of a
    contract he has.  Nique has a three year deal.  Neither will be back
    when their contracts expire, and they will leave huge holes in the
    salary structure where you can plug in a free agent.
    
    As far as building through the draft goes, you don't.  Ask the Nets,
    Kings, Bullets, and especially the Clippers about it.  The Clippers
    have had TWELVE #1 picks (including SEVEN in the lottery) over the past
    eight years.  Would you want to be a Clipper fan?
    
    What can happen to you in the draft is you can get lucky.  Like the
    Bulls.  They were very lucky Michael Jordan was the 3rd pick in the
    draft, and they were just as lucky when Seattle traded their #1 pick
    (Scottie Pippen) to Chicago for their #1 selection (Olden Polynice).
    I wonder who got the better of that deal!!!
    
    Someone said the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, Bulls, and Rockets built
    their teams through the draft.  That is only partially true.  take the
    Celtics of the 80s.  They were lucky in the draft to select AInge in
    the second round when everyone else thought he was going to play
    baseball.  They drafted Bird as an eligible junior, which you can't do
    any more.  And they swindled Golden State to draft McHale.  But every
    other player on those teams who mattered (Parish, DJ, Wedman, Sichting,
    Walton, Archibald, Ford) was acquired through a trade.
    
    Look at the Lakers.  Michael Cooper was an extremely fortunate third
    round pick.  Magic and Worthy were #1 picks.  Kareem was picked up in a
    trade, as was Byron Scott and Mychal Thompson. 
    
    Bottom line for the Celtics is that ML has done an incredible job in
    his first six weeks in charge, and if Pervis Ellison plays in 65 games
    this season, the Celtics will win the Atlantic Division title.
    
    NAZZ 

    
  >> As far as building through the draft goes, you don't.  Ask the Nets,
  >> Kings, Bullets, and especially the Clippers about it.  The Clippers
  >> have had TWELVE #1 picks (including SEVEN in the lottery) over the past
  >> eight years.  Would you want to be a Clipper fan?
    
     No, but I wouldn't feel too badly about beiong a Magic, Hornets or 
     Nuggets fan - three more teams that have built their core around
     the draft and that should be very good for years to come. No one
     in the last ten years has done what is being suggested here - that
     is build a championship team through the FA market. Phoenix came
     close but no cigar with Barkley and Johnson. But every team in the
     last ten or so years that has won the title was led by a player
     that they *drafted*. What ML is doing will make the 'Tics comp-
     etitive in the short term but doesn't bring us any closer to a
     title - not now and not in three years.
    
    >> Someone said the Celtics, Lakers, Pistons, Bulls, and Rockets built
    >> their teams through the draft.  That is only partially true.  take the
    >> Celtics of the 80s.  They were lucky in the draft to select AInge in
    >> the second round when everyone else thought he was going to play
    >> baseball.  They drafted Bird as an eligible junior, which you can't do
    >> any more.  And they swindled Golden State to draft McHale.  But every
    >> other player on those teams who mattered (Parish, DJ, Wedman, Sichting,
    >> Walton, Archibald, Ford) was acquired through a trade.
    
       You forgot Finals MVP, Cedric Maxwell, drafted out of UNC-Charlotte.
       And Gerdald Henderson who made that huge steal.    
    
    

 >  Josh is 100% correct regarding the Celtics future.  The Nique signing
 >   has set them up perfectly for three years down the road, and made them
 >   competitive in a weak Eastern conference right now.

WELCOME BACK NAZZ!!! ;););) I needed some help on this one.

About Pervous. He has a 6 year deal, right? How much per year? If he
stays healthy ML will look like a *genius*, the guy can play. If his
knees go and he retires, what does that do slot-wise? Let's say he
quits in 2 years....do we get his full slot, or half, or what?

josh

>    Bottom line for the Celtics is that ML has done an incredible job in
>    his first six weeks in charge, and if Pervis Ellison plays in 65 games
>    this season, the Celtics will win the Atlantic Division title.
    
     THat's the Nazz we know and love!!! Welcome back..........

 mike

    Hear hear!
    

Re.

 > If your going to rebuild thru the draft (Youth Movement) you have to
 > strick while the sticking is there...

Agreed, of course, but how do you know when the sticking is there so that
you can strick?  Is there some place you can call to ask about the sticking
before deciding whether or not to strick?  Perhaps the Weather Channel?

Re.

 > They will be medioca for the next 3 years (And Counting).  If we could
 > go back to 87 (Dig Up those Archives) I made a statement in the notes
 > file and to one of my Co-Workers that the Lakers/Celtics would not win
 > a championship for 5 years.  Well I was wrong its 6 and counting....

Yes, you were wrong.  The Lakers won it in '87 and '88.

Ken

Yer wrong about the C's winning the division, Nazz; but it is
good to have you back.

The Crazy Met

    re a few back....
    
    Wasn't Gerald Henderson signed as a free agent out of the CBA?
    
    I think so.....
    
    Nazz, nice to have you back.
    

|   Wasn't Gerald Henderson signed as a free agent out of the CBA?
 
I don't know if it was the CBA, but Henderson was indeed a free agent.

    If you can guarantee me that I will get the #1 pick two years in a row, 
    then I will rebuild through the draft.  Sheesh - even Pat Williams can
    do it, and now he's screwing up his team's chemistry because he ended
    up with the wrong guy (Webber vs Hardaway) IMO lasted year.  And the
    Hornets did OK with the #1 pick and the #2 pick, although #2 picks
    historically haven't been that great.
    
    And look at the Nets.  For four out of five years between 1987 and 1991
    they drafted 2nd, 1st, (12th - Mookie Blaylock!!!), 4th and 3rd, but
    1994 was the first year they even made a ripple in the playoffs. 
    Here's who they got and where, which shows what mismanagement can do!
    
    1987 - (3rd) Dennis Hopson (over Pippen, Grant, and the Reggies)
    1988 - (4th) Chris Morris
    1989 - (12) Mookie - a very good pick
    1990 - (1st) Derrick Coleman
    1991 - (2nd) Kenny Anderson
    
    Then the idiots traded Mookie for Rumeal Robinson, who'll likey be with
    the Sioux Falls Skyforce or some other such team thisted season.
    
    Bottom line - be lucky twice in the lottery after suffering a dozen
    years of garbage teams.  That's how you build through the draft.
    
    NAZZ

    Nazz,
    
    	I agree that you need to be lucky in the draft 2 years in a row.
    You also need to be lucky enough, that the years you are bad. There
    is a can't miss superstar available. Charlotte couldn't go wrong
    selecting LJ. Then the next year they ended up with the #2. You
    can't go wrong when both Shack, and Zo come out the same year.
    	The year Shack and Zo came out had to be easy picks for the #1
    and #2 picks. This year for #2 you had to choose between Kidd, Hill,
    and Marshall. Which one is going to be the best for your team?
    
    Ron

    Help!!!!!
    
    Suffering BBall withdrawal... Where was the new Celtics notes file
    moved to??
    
    Thanks in advance...

    Yes could someone please point me to Celtics notes that used to be on
    VIA?? Try to access yesterday kept getting file not found.
    
    Tim

    Tim, it's on FRETZ::BOSTON_CELTICS
    
    Mike (new host and moderator)

> Tim, it's on FRETZ::BOSTON_CELTICS

> Mike (new host and moderator)

This should be submitted to SI for their Sign that the Apocalypse is Upon Us
box which they do each week.

The Crazy Met

    Why is that TCM?  I'm the biggest Celtic fan on the net!

   >> Why is that TCM?  I'm the biggest Celtic fan on the net!
     
      No, you're not. Your loyalties are split. True 'Tics fans
      have but one favrite b-ball team and the Suns ain't it. 

    True 'Tics fans would've done all they could to save the conference.
    
    Mike (Conference Savior!)

Mike, sometimes you can't win for losing.  In my eyes, you're a true
hero, even though I've never been within 3000 miles of your conference.

On the subject of lost conferences, anyone know what's up with
STKCSC::HOCKEY?

Steve

    Steve, you'll be about 400 miles from it when you land in L.A.
    
    Mike

Mike,

so what you're saying is, it's gone into exile in (I assume) Arizona.

Jeez, fans, if you can't support the notesfile, how can you support
the team??? ;-)

A parting shot...

Steve

Article 440 of alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics:
Newsgroups: alt.sports.basketball.nba.boston-celtics
From: an153228@anon.penet.fi (Hooked on music)
Organization: Anonymous contact service
Subject: (mini-FAQ) A Tribute to Larry Bird

        _-_-                                   _-_ _,,             |\   
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         ||     (( ||  ||    ||    ||/            ,/--|| ||  ||   || || 
        (  -__,  \/\\  \\,   \\,   |/            _--_-'  \\  \\,   \\/  
                                  (             (                       
                                   -_-                                  
 
                           A Tribute to Larry Bird
                     What his fans have to say about him.
 
                              November 25, 1994
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
                                Introduction
                            Why is Bird so great?
 
        Bird was probably the best all around player.  He is the only
player in the history of the NBA to average at least 20ppg, 10rpg,
and 6apg for his career.  On top of that, he was one of the deadliest
outside shooters ever, and was also one of the best ever from the FT
line.  He was an extremely smart basketball player who made his
teammates much better and was one of the top 3 or 4 clutch
performers.
 
        Bird came into a Celtics team in disarray, a team that had
only won 29 games before his arrival, and led the team to the best
record in the NBA with 61 wins, a 32 game improvement.  He also led
the team from not being in the playoffs to being in the conference
Finals with Philadelphia.  The Celtics of 79-80 didn't really add
much of significance besides Bird.  They lost a lot of players, but
really only added MLCarr and Gerald Henderson, but the primary
players (Maxwell, Cowens, Archibald, Robey, and Ford) all remained
consistent.
 
        Bird took a team that was utterly miserable, that finished
with the 2nd worst record in the NBA, and led them to a 32game
improvement, the best record in the NBA, and a conference Finals
appearance.  It was his 2nd year that he finally won the title.
 
        It's too bad that Bird has to leave the game so early.
I would have loved to see him play till he's 40 and burn up the
league when he breaks all the all-time records...
 
        What are your favorite Bird memories?
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
          /\\,/\\,                                           
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         |, \\,\\, \\,/  \\ \\ \\ \\,/   \\,  \\ \\,/  ,-_-  
        _-                                                   
                   Your favorite Larry Bird memories
 
I guess the most memorable time was during the playoffs against
Detroit Pistons when the Celtics were down by a few points in the
dying seconds and Isiah Thomas was throwing the ball in bound.  Bird
quickly outsmarted all players and stole the in bound pass and tossed
the ball over to Dennis Johnson for the winning basket.
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
Shot clock winding down, Bird saves the ball from going out of bounds
on the left side of the box on the baseline.  Knows time is about to
expire so he must take a shot, but has no clear angle, so he shoots a
wicked high-arching rainbow over the back of the backboard.  Swish.
I still don't believe it.
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
Quick jump shot from right side of the top of the key.  Bird knows
immediately the shot is too far right, anticipates the direction of
the rebound to the right baseline, runs to meet it, catches and
shoots in one motion.  Swish.  (also known as Red Auerbach's favorite
Bird play -- he said so many times).
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
        The greatest play for me was the steal off thomas. the
greatest display was vs. dominique(Nnot to mention every game
vs.magic). But the greatest testam ent to Larry as the
toughest,gutsiest, most brilliant player I have ever seen lies in his
performance in thegame vs. Pacers?? In the playoffs where he SPENT
THE NIGHT IN TRACTION IN THE HOSPITAL and not only played thenext
day, but recorded a triple double. Unbelievable!!!! He was the
greatest I have ever seen.
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
Bird got the ball inside with 3 sec. left but opted to dribble beyond
the 3-pt line and nail the 3-pointer just in time. The rise of his
fist after he made it, man never will forget that. But then again I
have it on tape too:-)
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
Bird broke the consecutive free-throw shooting record just a year
before he retired.
 
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
 
Feel free to add more to this list!
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    consecutive FT record: I am pretty sure Bird never got that record.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 that's right TCM. Bird realized a short guy like Murphy wasn't going to have
 any other claim to fame so he shanked it on purpose.......

 my favorite memory was a regular season game against the Lakers in the forum
 where he 36 points 21 rebounds and 5 assists. The only thing he didn't do that
 night was sweep the floor after the game.........

 mike

    
    So is it now reasonable to say that in spite of a tidal wave of
    intolerant SPROTS' prejudice, that Eric Montross looks like a competent 
    player, and at the very least a completely defensible draft pick from
    the slot which he was taken?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Montross had a hail of a game lasted night, at least from the clips and
scores I seen. Something like 16 & 16, a tidy little double-double.

I don't know if'n he all that good considering he was standing beside
Acie and play against Koncak.

Whatever, I'm sure Knorr would say he owes it all to Dean and not going
to Indiana and Bobby Knight.

TTom

 one good game. big deal. time will tell. I hope I was wrong....

 mike

    Teddy Sarandis notwithstanding and not having seen the game I'd give
    the major credit for winning last night to Dino babie'ss sore footsie.
    
    When I saw the C's a 4 point favorite over Hawks I thought Atlanta was
    the lock of the decade until I found out Dino was out.
    
    You should see solid play from C's until Radja returns then they'll be
    back to below mediocre.

    	The 0 still looks too slow to play in the NBA.
    
    				/Don

    
    
    	I agree with ya /, he's Joe Kline material. All his point's except
    	for the free throws were 2 to 3 feet from the hoop. I thought
        he could shoot the ten footer in College, why does he continually
        position himself so close to the basket? 
    
    
        RM 

    Montross was the 9th pick, not the 6th.
    
    Philly took Sharone Wright 6th.
    The Clippers took Lamond Murray 7th.
    Sacramento took Brian Grant 8th.
    
    I don't understand the harsh criticism of Radja.  Seems to me he is
    pretty solid offensively, is an OK rebounder, and needs to work on his
    defense.  He's a legitimate NBA forward, and one of the best players
    on the team, at this point in time far and away the best forward on the
    Celtics.
    
    I was amazed Chris Ford played all five starters at least 41 minutes.
    
    NAZZ

    
    
    
    	Montross will never be an NBA All-Star, but I've been pretty happy
    with what I've seen so far from him. Especially compared to rookies
    drafted after him.
    
    	The only later draft picks that have shown much to date, that come
    to mind to me right now, are Eddie Jones (12th, Lakers), Wesley Person
    (23rd, Phoenix) and Michael Smith (35th!, Sacramento - steal of the
    draft so far). Eisley is playing a lot for Minnesota, but that has
    more to do with how else is there, than how well he is playing...
    
    	Is is a little early to even start evaluating last years draft.
    Many later draft picks just haven't been given much of a chance yet,
    because of who they play for (Williams & Ward of the Knicks for
    example).
    
    	The only thing I'm disappointed with from last year's draft, was
    Sacramento picking Brian Grant just ahead of the C's. He'll be a much
    better player in the long run than Montross....
    
    JimH
     

    
    Carlos Rogers (#11, Seattle, traded to Golden State) has played
    extremely well in the minutes he's getting (about 15/game; enough
    to get some idea).
    
    Joe

    My problem with Radja is what is he?  A power forward who is lunch for
    Horace Grant?  Another Dominique (not vintage Dominique, 34 year old
    'que).
    
    I grant you his skills are NBA caliber and in another situation with 8
    interchangeable players who are coached to play as a team (Hawks are a
    good example) his skills would be better served.
    
    The player you'd like to think he is like is Bird except 
    
    Bird had the outside range and the license to take the shots
    
    Bird could rebound with the best of them
    
    The C's team (and not all of teams in nba would have) were willing to
    follow Bird and he to lead.  This is not and never will be the case
    with Dino.
    
    The final problem was the minutes were handed to Dino off his contract
    signing while X and Fox and Oscar and Pinckney and ? had to fight in
    practice for his 48 - 35 and the other 48 - that's about 60 for 5 or 15
    per man.
    
    On the other hand I'm surprised some are holding out on Montross
    (congrats Mike for your grudging "compliment?").  He seems to be this
    teams cata...(no I won't use that word again) along with X).
    
    then again I really should sit down and watch a little more than I do

    PLEASE - don't even mention Bird and Radja in the same sentence!!!
    
    What Radja is is a very good forward with excellent offensive skills,
    and shows a certain feel for the game.  I agree with you that in a
    situation where he was on a team that would allow him not to be a main
    focal point of the offense, he would be a better player.  However, he
    is still in the top half of all the forwards in the league, and is
    quite a bargain for a second round draft choice.
    
    NAZZ

    I wasn't of course building Radja up.  The point I was making was that
    Bird's ability to rebound and shoot from 20+ feet were his key skills.
    
    What you would be referring to his unique creative ability which I
    grant, and Dino or perhaps noone will ever match.
    
    But for Dino to make an impact worthy of his salary he would have to do
    one of those two things or develop a Maxwell type of defensive ability.
    The big problem is Dino is playing power forward and the teams with
    success have guys like Grant, Oakley, Willis, Thorpe handling it.
    
    Dino has as you say good offensive skills and average on the rest.  For
    4 Mil, give me top rebounding and defense and I'll find the offense
    somewhere else.

    Wha' happened Bob,
    	I just know they lost and I thought I heard a replay of a Rodman
    stuff which would imply ol' cabbage top played.
    
    	Don't tell me Pervis is injured

I was listening to the game.

In the last quarter, Ellison went off the court clutching
his knee.  He was on the bench with a towel around his 
haid, in apparent frustration.  I heard on the radio thised
morning that he was "day-to-day".

Around two minutes later, Sherman Douglas went down,
clutchig HIS knee.  Apparently he wasn't seriously injured,
as he came back in the game.

From what I saw of the highlights, Robinson made both
Montross and Earl (big surprise) look really bad.  He 
got open underneath time and time again, and both those 
guys had five fouls early in the fourth.

=Bob=

 Atleast Rodman dyed his hair green for last night's game. Between him and JR
 the Spurs have to win the NBA's hairdressers' dream awards......

 mike

    Rodman's in the Christmas spirit.  Daly said recently that he's the
    only player that ever gave him a Christmas present.  He also was the
    only player to come to his house to give his family gifts.
    
    Mike

    What?!?!?  David Robinson got the better of Acie Earl?!?!?!?!?
    
    NAZZ

    
    
    >What?!?!?  David Robinson got the better of Acie Earl?!?!?!?!?
    
    	Hey NAZZ, don't BLAM Acie. Mr. Robison was resting comfortably on
    the bench looooong before Acie got into the game.... :-)
    
    JimH