Conference hbahba::cam_sports

>Note 98.400                       Phoenix Suns                        400 of 401
>CNTROL::CHILDS "Liz Smith wants Madonna's body"      11 lines   7-JAN-1993 11:07
>In related news Hubie Brown wasn't impressed by the recent 14 game win streak.
>Sites the Bulls as the team to beat. Points to the thrashing the Bulls gave
>the Suns in Phoenix. I think Mike and Tommy might remember the game... ;^)
    
    I can really respect Hubie's analysis given his fine record in the NBA.
    In addition, Da Bulls played here in the 6th game of the season where a
    cast of new Suns were still adjusting to each other, while the core of
    Da Bulls has been together for 5+ years.
    
>Says the Suns may win the West and they are loaded but while the Western style
>of ball may fill arena and put points on the boards, it's still Eastern Style
>defense thay wins championships. He say while Chicago maybe struggling a bit
    
    Hubie's "expertise" is even funnier since the resident Dream Teamer is
    from said Eastern Conference.  He should get a real job doing college
    ball with Dick Vitale.
    
    Mike

    Hot & heavy rumors in these parts over the last 5 days (made the sports
    section headlines twice in that time frame) is Ceballos + Knight (and
    maybe Mustaf too) to Dallas for Jimmy Jackson.
    
    Interesting trade, but the Suns better hope KJ stays healthy unless
    Jackson can play the point.  I've never seen Jackson play, but I'm sure
    he's good enough to be worthy of a lottery pick.  Suns are VERY deep and 
    this is their chance to improve somewhere.
    
    I attended SUNSfest on Saturday where 20,000 filled the new arena for
    an official celebration of the 25th anniversary.  The festival started
    off with an open practice of the current Suns from 10am-Noon.  This is
    the third open practice they've held, all proceeds go to charity.  The
    idea is to give the less-fortunate a chance to see the team since 90%
    of the seats were sold to season ticket holders.  The first practice
    was before Thanksgiving where 10,000 showed up and paid the admission
    fee of $1 or a canned good that went to a local food bank.  The second
    was during Christmas break and 20,000 showed up for the same admission
    price.  2,000 were turned away and the unexpected large crowd wreaked
    havoc for the police so this time they sold tickets ($1 for kids, $2
    for adults).  This town has gone so crazy over this team, there were
    scalpers outside the arena on Saturday selling the tickets for 2-3
    times the face value FOR AN OPEN PRACTICE!  The arena was full again!
    All the players said they have never seen anything like it.  Ainge said
    the Blazers did this once and only 400 showed up.  
    
    As part of the 25th anniversary celebration after practice, many Suns
    players from the '60s, '70s, and '80s were flown in for the event.  The
    veterans held free-throw and 3 pt contests, autograph sessions, and
    instructional clinics for the public up to 6pm that evening.  At 1pm a 
    huge cake was rolled out (fed 10,000 people) as 20,000 sang Happy Birthday 
    to the Suns.  As Colangelo and the Suns veterans gathered around to blow 
    out the candles, Jerry said, "It is customary to make a wish before doing 
    this. You all know what I want!"  The full house let go a tremendous roar!
    
    Once again the Suns have set precedence in the NBA that other teams
    will learn from upon reaching an anniversary.  It was great to see
    the Suns' greats again like Connie Hawkins, Jim Fox, Ronnie Lee, Walter
    Davis, Alvan Adams, Maurice Lucas, Kyle Macy, Keith Erickson, Curtis
    Perry, Garfield Heard, Mo Layden, Gary Gregory, Tom & Dick Van Arsdale,
    Paul Westphal (of course), Alvin Scott, and more that I can't remember
    (plus the current team).
    
    Colangelo also talked about the coin toss for Jabbar.  It is uncanny
    how close Kareem came to being a Sun.  The man who flipped the coin,
    had it come down heads, but flipped it (carried it over) to his left
    hand to make it tails.  Strange, but the Suns have been cursed without
    a decent center since.
    
    Suns are in Seattle tomorrow to take on their closest competition. 
    Hopefully KJ will be ready, but he was in street clothes for the open
    practice.
    
    Mike
    
    BTW - The Suns have now raised over $100,000 for the local food banks
    by holding these open practices.  More are scheduled later in the year.

    Tonight's the night the Suns get their comeuppance, Mike.  They
    play the Sonics in Seattle.
    
    Last game, if you recall, the Sonics lost by three in Phoenix without
    Shawn Kemp.  Only pathetic foul shooting down the stretch and the 
    worst home-cooking calls I've seen in a long time prevented this one
    from being an L for the Suns.
    
    The Suns may well win the Pacific, Mike, but I have no doubt they'll
    make their traditional early exit in the playoffs.  So, enjoy it while
    you can.  
    
    Go Sonics!
    
    Pete

>    Last game, if you recall, the Sonics lost by three in Phoenix without
>    Shawn Kemp.  
    
    That's okay.  They beat a healthy Sonic team too here in November.
    
    >Only pathetic foul shooting down the stretch and the worst home-cooking 
    >calls I've seen in a long time prevented this one from being an L for 
    >the Suns.
    
    Are you from Clemson?

    >of the seats were sold to season ticket holders.  The first practice
    >was before Thanksgiving where 10,000 showed up and paid the admission
    >fee of $1 or a canned good that went to a local food bank.  The second
    >was during Christmas break and 20,000 showed up for the same admission
    >price.  2,000 were turned away and the unexpected large crowd wreaked
    >havoc for the police so this time they sold tickets ($1 for kids, $2
    >for adults).  This town has gone so crazy over this team, there were
    >scalpers outside the arena on Saturday selling the tickets for 2-3
    >times the face value FOR AN OPEN PRACTICE!  The arena was full again!
    
    Scalpers were outside selling tickets for $2-$3?  Ooh, that must be big
    news...
    
    >Colangelo also talked about the coin toss for Jabbar.  It is uncanny
    >how close Kareem came to being a Sun.  The man who flipped the coin,
    >had it come down heads, but flipped it (carried it over) to his left
    >hand to make it tails.  Strange, but the Suns have been cursed without
    >a decent center since.
    
    Isn't that the way coin tosses go if someone catches it?  I'd say they
    came within a 50-50 chance of getting it right...

>    Scalpers were outside selling tickets for $2-$3?  Ooh, that must be big
>    news...
    
    You didn't read it correctly.  

    My mistake, they sold them for $4-$6 for adults, $2-3 for kids?  Still,
    that must be hard hitting news...

    
    >>Are you from Clemson?
    
    No, Mike, I was merely pointing out that the Sonics outplayed the Suns
    in the last game.  The Sonics' own poor foul shooting and missed layins
    during the game did them in, but the 39-19 disparity in foul shots 
    sure didn't help.  Part of the reason that teams like the Suns fail
    miserably in the playoffs every year is because they don't get the
    homer calls like they do in the regular season.  
    
    It's a hoot to see you implicitly criticize a comment directed at the
    officiating.  If I recall correctly, you made a big deal out of a
    missed 6 men on the floor call in the game that snapped the winning
    streak.  How exactly does a non-call on that differ from Michael Cage
    getting knocked to the floor with no call?  
    
    If the Suns can barely beat the pathetic Mavs, I don't see how they
    have a prayer at the Coliseum, where the Sonics haven't lost since last
    March.  (Their only home loss this year was to the Bulls in the
    Kingdome).
    
    Pete

    Hey Walt, how many practices have the Pistons sold out?  Since they are
    former champs, Michiganders must be chomping at the bit to get a chance
    to see them!
    
>    No, Mike, I was merely pointing out that the Sonics outplayed the Suns
>    in the last game.  The Sonics' own poor foul shooting and missed layins
>    during the game did them in, 
    
    I don't get it Pete.  The Sonics outplayed them, but couldn't make the
    2 easiest shots in basketball?!  Sounds like a choke job to me.
    
    >but the 39-19 disparity in foul shots sure didn't help.  Part of the 
    >reason that teams like the Suns fail miserably in the playoffs every 
    >year is because they don't get the homer calls like they do in the 
    >regular season.  
    
    Wrong again, Pete.  The reason they didn't receive the calls is because
    they lacked an inside game and didn't get the calls that aggressive
    play yields.  If you're taking it to the hoop, you either get the shot,
    the foul, or both.  That's why the Sonics lost both games to the Suns,
    especially the close one without Kemp.  Phoenix was aggressively taking
    it to the hole and Seattle had no inside force for the latter game.
    
>    It's a hoot to see you implicitly criticize a comment directed at the
>    officiating.  If I recall correctly, you made a big deal out of a
>    missed 6 men on the floor call in the game that snapped the winning
>    streak.  How exactly does a non-call on that differ from Michael Cage
>    getting knocked to the floor with no call?  
    
    Because Cage gets knocked to the floor with the legal number of men on
    the floor.  Besides, he would've missed the free throws anyway, the
    offensive force that he is.
    
>    If the Suns can barely beat the pathetic Mavs, I don't see how they
>    have a prayer at the Coliseum, 
    
    You probably don't see either that Rooks and Harper were in their first
    game back against Phoenix after injury problems, and the Suns were at
    the tail end the Texas Triangle Tour, and they lost KJ to an injury the
    night before.
    
    >where the Sonics haven't lost since last
>    March.  (Their only home loss this year was to the Bulls in the
>    Kingdome).
    
    Pete, if they haven't lost there yet this season, how did the Bulls
    beat them?
    
    Mike

Mike

The Sonics play most of their home games in the Colesium, but every
now and then they play in the Kingdome to get huge crowds ($$$) - usually
vs. the Jordanaires or the Magic-led Lakers.

JD

    Today was the deadline for the Suns and Spurs to present their evidence
    and argument.  Spurs VP Bob Bass is arguing that they didn't have
    enough time to make their substitutions.  
    
    Even the newspapers in Japan are hotly following this blackmark against
    the NBA officials credibility.
    
    Mike

    I thought I made it clear that the Sonics haven't lost since March
    in the Coliseum, but they lost to the Bulls in the Kingdome.
    
    And, you're telling me that the concept of a team outplaying another,
    but losing, is not feasible?  Happens all the time.
    
    It's okay, though, Mike.  Keep pounding your chest about the Suns'
    early season play.  They are playing great.  Just don't expect 'em to
    do much in the playoffs.  They remind me of Utah, and you know how
    many times they've been in the Finals.
    
    Pete

                                          
>    Hey Walt, how many practices have the Pistons sold out?
    
    In a city of Phoenix' size, the people have to support something, so it
    might as well be a big winner in a sport with limited ticket availibility.  
    Phoenix residents didn't come out for pro football, they didn't come 
    out for college football, they didn't come out for minor league 
    baseball (Phoenix had one of the worst AAA attendances, behind most of
    the AA franchises, even), and they didn't come out for the Arizona 
    Winter Baseball League games (attendances in the low hundreds for what
    turned out to be high quality brand of off-season baseball).  Basically, 
    the Suns are the only game in town as far as Phoenix is concerned...
    
    glenn
    

    Not quite true, Glenn.  Arena football led the league in attendance, I
    believe, the fall baseball would have a tough time anywhere, coming
    after the WS, ASU did well, attendance wise, until Larrie MArmie showed
    up, and should spring back with Snyder.  The Cards are not a good case,
    as they are a team with no legacy here, have never had a winning
    season, and yet still outdrew the Pats.  AS far as AAA baseball,
    attendance has been improving the last three years, remarkably, despite
    the fact that the team plays outside, in 110 degree heat.
    
    Brews

>    These are the conditions that the expansion baseball team that Phoenix 
>    said they deserved would have operated under, right?  Phoenix pretty much
    
    No, a dome was also a condition.  IMHO, it's also a necessity here.
    
>    certainly not to the level of fanaticism you suggest.  A couple of years
>    ago when I was out there right before the start of the playoffs the city 
>    was hardly abuzz with talk of the mighty Suns.
    
    I'm sure you were really looking for it too.  Oh, what a difference a
    Dream Teamer and the NBA's best record make.  Instead of guaranteeing a 
    14,000 sellout 2 years ago, they could probably fill a 30,000 seat arena 
    now.  Suns playoff games have always been SRO affairs.
    
    Mike

>    I'm sure you were really looking for it too.  Oh, what a difference a
>    Dream Teamer and the NBA's best record make.  Instead of guaranteeing a 
>    14,000 sellout 2 years ago, they could probably fill a 30,000 seat arena 
>    now.  Suns playoff games have always been SRO affairs.

     IMHO a town of fairweather fans doesn't deserve an NBA Championship ;^)

   foulweatherly yours over here in Miami,
   Kath

    Quiet Kath or I'll sick the aliens on ya!

    I don't know about practices, but they sold out road playoff games the
    past couple of years...
    

    The suns lasted night 122-115? to Seattle....
    
    REK

    Yabbut
    
    Kath,
    
    Does Nazz know that you've ventured out of the ::Celts notesfile and
    dropped in here?  This is the "loonies" notesfile doncha know!  Be
    prepared to have your "excellent sanity" questioned!
    
    Anyway,  welcome to ::Sports and have fun!
    
    I remain,
    a fan of your reports!
    Kev
    

    Lemme be the firsted to say to Mike H, "Nyah, nyah, nyah!"  The
    Sonics kicked Sun butt 122-113.  Whatta game!  It was close until
    the last minute.
    
    I caught the first 2 1/2 quarters on TV in a stinky smoky bar, but
    then had to high-tail it home so I wouldn't get slapped.  It was an
    intense, playoff-type game all the way.  About a minute into the 
    second quarter, the Sonics already had 15 offensive boards!  The
    Suns had one.  I don't know the final tally.  In the first half, the
    Sonics were shooting about 42% and the Suns about 60+%, but the Sonics 
    had a 5 point lead thanks to the offensive boards.  In one sequence,
    Kemp missed a shot and tipped it three times before it went in.
    
    Eddie Johnson saved the day in the fourth quarter.  He hit a big three
    with about 5 minutes to go to give them some breathing room.
    
    Majerle and Chuckie had big games for the Suns.  This season series is
    gonna be fun.  
    
    Mike, the Supes are only a game behind your beloved Suns now.  By the
    time the road trip is over, the Sonics will be looking at the Suns in
    their rear-view mirror.
    
    Pete

    >>See there ya go again contradicting yourself.  First you say they
    
    Mike, the "kick butt" comment was just a bit of partisan fan
    hyperbole (look it up), and was not meant to be taken seriously
    as a comment on the closeness of the game.
    
    >>It sure seemed like it, but I think the Sonics needed this one more
    >>than the Suns.  To me, the next meeting in Seattle (Feb 23?) will be 
    >>much more crucial and have more on the line than this one.
    
    I think the Sonics needed the game to prove to themselves they are for
    real.  They failed their first big test (Chicago) and have passed most
    of the recent ones (a narrow loss in Phoenix, winning in Portland).
    They had something to prove, and played like it.  But, the Suns sure
    didn't look like they were putting forth anything but 100% effort.
    BTW, the next game is Feb. 13 in Seattle, then April 16 in Phoenix.
        
    >>Suns also went to the line more disproving your homer theory from the
    >>previous game and proving my analysis of inside play.
    
    Last stats I saw had the free throws about even.  I don't know what the
    final numbers were.  Jeff, you have the stats?  If you're denying that
    certain players (Barkley) get calls that lesser-known ones don't, I
    question your powers of observation.  Kemp gets pounded constantly and
    doesn't get the calls that Charles or Malone would.  I also defy you
    to make a case that the Suns take the ball inside more than the Sonics.
    Cage, McKey, Kemp and Payton all take the ball to the hole.  Charles,
    Majerle and KJ do alot of penetration for the Suns.  About even I'd
    say.
    
    >>Sorry Pete, the road trip ends tomorrow night in Sacramento.  You must
    >>have enjoyed the possibilities though.
    
    I thought the road trip was around 11 or 12 games?  Or are they home
    for one and back on the road?  They've only played about 4 or 5 in a
    row on the road, right?
    
    Pete
        

 possible explanation for why Marjele played the whole second half and
 Chambers got splinters is that in a close game, Westphal obviously felt
 he need his best defensive player out there and not his worst.....
 
 mike

>    for one and back on the road?  They've only played about 4 or 5 in a
>    row on the road, right?
    
    Tomorrow is their 6th, then they're at home for 1 and go back out on
    the road next week.
    
    Mike

    No way Mike, Chambers ALWAYS plays at least 20 minutes a game.  Only
    played 11 last night.  Majerle can't guard EJ and Pierce when they're
    on the floor together.
    
    Miller shouldn't have been in there at crunch time at center.  West is
    a better defender than all of them.  Especially in the post among the
    trees the Sonics have down low.
    
	SEATTLE (UPI) -- Derrick McKey scored 24 points Tuesday night, leading
the Seattle SuperSonics to a 122-113 victory over the Phoenix Suns in
matchup of the top two teams in the league.
	Shawn Kemp added 22 points as the Sonics won their sixth straight and
11th in their last 12 games. Seattle also improved to a league-best 16-1
at home and moved within one game of Phoenix for first place in the
Western Division.
	Charles Barkley scored a game-high 27 points for Phoenix, which lost
for just the second time in 18 games and fell to 11-5 on the road. Dan
Majerle added 22 points.
	Phoenix shot 53.9 points from the field, but the Sonics limited the
Suns to 76 shots. Seattle forced 23 turnovers and only gave the ball up
seven times.

PHOENIX (113)
        Barkley 11-22 5-6 27, Dumas 4-9 0-0 8, West 0-1 0-0 0, K.Johnson
7-10 6-7 20, Majerle 7-8 5-8 22, Miller 2-6 3-4 7, Chambers 0-1 1-2
1, F. Johnson 0-2 0-0 0, Ainge 4-9 4-4 14, Ceballos 6- 8 2-3 14. Totals
41-76 26-34 113.
SEATTLE (122)
        Kemp 9-20 4-7 22, McKey 8-11 8-10 24, Cage 2-7 1-2 5, Payton
8-20 4-4 20, Pierce 6-14 7-7 21, McMillan 0-4 0-0 0, Askew 2-2 2-2
6, Johnson 7-11 0-0 15, Barros 2-8 0-0 4, Benjamin 0-0 1-2 1, Paddio
2-2 0-0 4. Totals 46-99 27-34 122.
Phoenix                         32 30 30 21--113
Seattle                         33 34 29 26--122
        Three-point goals--Majerle 3, Ainge 2; Pierce 2, Johnson. Fouled
out--None. Total fouls--Phoenix 24, Seattle 28. Rebounds-- Phoenix
51 (Barkley 11), Seattle 52 (Kemp 14). Assists--Phoenix 19 (K.Johnson
8), Seattle 22 (Pierce 6). Steals--Phoenix 4 (Barkley, Dumas, K.Johnson,
Miller 1), Seattle 12 (McMillan 4). Turnovers-- Phoenix 23 (K.Johnson
5), Seattle 7 (Payton 2). Blocked shots--Miller 4. Technicals-- Seattle
Coach Karl. A--14,812.

    If the Sonics finally won a game, why are they one "of the top two
    teams in the league"?

    Mac, it was Seattle's first win vs. Phoenix in 3 attempts.  The Suns
    and Sonics are #1 and #2 in the league, record wise.

Thunder Dan and rookie Richard Dumas scored 23 points apiece last night to
lead the Suns to a 114-104 victory over the Sacramento Kings.  The Suns
outscored Sacramento 33-10 in the decisive 3rd quarter to improve their
NBA-best record to 24-6. The Suns trailed 61-52 at intermission before their
3rd-quarter charge.  Phoenix has won 19 of the last 22 meetings with the Kings,
including the last 6 straight.  The Suns wrapped up its 5-game road trip at
3-2 (possibly 4-1) and improved to a NBA-best 12-5 on the road.

Wayman Tisdale had 21 points and Walt Williams and Lionel Simmons each scored
18 in a losing effort for Sacramento. The Kings have lost 3 of their last 4
games after winning 6 in a row.  (game summary below)

Notebook
--------
- Ainge only saw limited action because of lower back pains.
- Negele Knight hasn't played since KJ's most recent return.  Rumors are still
  strong on the Jimmy Jackson trade.  Jerry Colangelo reported that all
  interested teams have offers on the table with the Mavs.  The Mavs have
  until the February trading deadline to do something or lose any compensation
  for Jackson.
- The Sonics lost in Utah last night so Phoenix reclaims its 2 game lead.
- The Heat are in town tonight.

Sir Barkley's Neighborhood
--------------------------
From CHarles Barkley, in response to the statement that Oliver Miller,
the Phoenix Suns' 300-pound rookie center, was a big man in his
hometown of Ft. Worth:
	"Let me tell you something. Oliver is big everywhere. And you
know what? His momma is big, too. She's so big she's from both sides 
of the family."

PHOENIX (114)
        Dumas 7-13 9-9 23, Barkley 7-18 6-8 20, West 1- 1 0-0 2, K.
Johnson 4-11 3-3 11, Majerle 9-18 3-4 23, Chambers 6-15 6-7 18, F.Johnson
3-5 0-0 6, Miller 2-6 0-0 4, Ceballos 2-4 0-1 4, Ainge 1-3 0- 0 3.
Totals 42-94 27-32 114.
SACRAMENTO (104)
        Simmons 8-17 2-4 18, Bonner 7-14 3-5 17, Tisdale 9-16 3-4 21,
Richmond 6-16 0-1 12, Webb 5-11 3-3 14, Brown 1-3 0-0 2, Causwell 1-4
0-0 2, Williams 7-12 2-4 18, Rambis 0-0 0-0 0, Les 0-0 0-0 0, Conlon
0-0 0-0 0. Totals 44-93 13- 21 104.
Phoenix                         28 24 33 29--114
Sacramento                      29 32 10 33--104
        Three-point goals--Majerle 2, Ainge; Webb, Williams 2. Fouled
out--Ainge, Richmond, Williams. Total fouls--Phoenix 23, Sacramento
28. Rebounds--Phoenix 54 (Majerle, Miller 9), Sacramento 60 (Simmons,
Bonner 11). Assists--Phoenix 32 (K.Johnson 8), Sacramento 26 (Webb
8). Steals--Phoenix 15 (K.Johnson 6), Sacramento 9 (Webb 4). Turnovers--
Phoenix 18 (K.Johnson 4), Sacramento 24 (Simmons 6). Blocked shots--Miller
5, Dumas 2, Chambers 2, K.Johnson, Ceballos; Causwell 3, Simmons, Tisdale,
Richmond, Williams. Technicals--None. A--17,317.

    Suns are currently playing the Knicks in MSG.  We're just going into
    intermission and the score is tied at 51.  This is the start of a 6
    game trip that goes through New York (now), Cleveland (Wed), Washington
    (Fri), Atlanta (Sat), Detroit (Mon), and Minnesota (Wed).  
    
    Suns beat Miami here last Friday night, 107-99.  Sir Charles scored his
    15,000th point with 1:41 left in front of the home crowd.  The Suns
    wasted large leads more than once, but held on for the win.  They won't
    be able to get away with these lapses on the road trip.
    
    The Suns did lose the protest, and in the opinion of many, left a
    blackmark on the reputation of NBA officials and leadership.  There's
    no denying the rule as it is in the rule book.  The decision by Stern
    smacks of a rule change than just a poor interpretation.  Stern
    acknowledged there were 6 Spurs on the floor, but denies the ball was
    live, despite the video evidence.  Stern also fined that officiating
    crew, what does that tell you?  Even as Paul Westphal said, "They had
    lawyers jumping through hoops to come up with that interpretation. 
    Basically, they changed the rules."  Barkley said all along that they
    wouldn't have the courage to uphold the protest.  Stern showed his
    ignorance of the rules for a "live ball" by saying it hadn't been
    thrown in yet.  If that's the case, the rules for a "live ball" should
    be changed to reflect a thrown in ball.  Stern also pointed to a "long
    standing league practice" on allowing the teams to field the correct
    number of players.  Westphal said he knows many coaches who have lost
    games via technical fouls due to incorrect number of players.  He also
    said that there should be no "unwritten long-standing league
    practices."
    
    On to better things...  Dumas is starting to rival Majerle as the
    team's best defender.  Just what the Suns needed!
    
    Mike

    A collection of Sir Charles quotes I collected over the holidays. Enjoy!
    
    Charles on his Christmas gifts: "I always get the old sweater trick. 
    That's what I got, sweaters and shirts.  White guys get ties.  Me, I
    get an old sweater."
    
    To Suns guard Frank Johnson, who said he stripped Charles of the ball
    during a scrimmage with the Dream Team: "You ain't never stripped me,
    Frank.  You want to see some strippin, you got to go to Tiffany's
    [local strip joint]."
    
    To a sportswriter from Sun City: "How are things out there in Sun City?
    Bet you have to be home by 10pm out there don't you?  Naaah, I'll bet
    you stay out late. It's you and all those golf carts parked on the side
    of the road."
    
    On Suns guard Danny Ainge missing the first of 2 free throw attempts
    late in the Suns 113-110 win over Seattle: "You try to get the ball to
    the white guys.  They're supposed to make free throws, but then they
    turn around and miss them.  Hell, put me and Mark West at that line
    instead."
    
    On the Suns label of being a soft team: "Yeah, people used to say the
    Suns were soft.  But we ain't that anymore.  Me and Danny (Ainge) have
    been working hard to get rid of that label.  We might not play well. 
    We didn't play well tonight.  But we were scrappy."
    
    On the Suns next 15 games, 12 on the road: "We're not a bunch of punks. 
    We're always going to be there in the end, and we're going to be there
    to kick some ass."
    
    On the difference between the 76'ers of his rookie year, '84-'85 and
    the Suns of this, his 9th NBA season: "A big difference was Moses
    Malone.  With Philly, we had a big center.  Size is one of our
    weaknesses.  But this team has a lot more offensive weapons that that
    Philly team.  And the biggest difference I think is that this team is a
    lot hungrier than any of the ones I was with in Philly.  I got to the
    Sixers after they had done it all (NBA title in '83).  There just
    wasn't much else to accomplish.  But this team hasn't won it.  And we
    want it real bad, believe me."
    
    Concerning a letter in the Republic [Phoenix day paper]: "I noticed
    some old lady from Sun City writing about me in the newspaper,
    complaing that I'm hogging al the publicity.  And she called Tom
    Chambers 'chicken.'  Let me tell you, Tom Chambers is one of the few
    white guys who will fight.  The rest are chicken."
    
    On the IBM/OS2 Fiesta Bowl game between Syracuse and Colorado: "Are we
    gonna go to that game?  Hold the plane.  I want to go to that game.  I
    just gotta be home in time to see my team, Miami."
    
    Why Miami, college football's bad boys? "I like their attitude.  People
    always put them down, but that's because they're jealous."
    
    To a sportswriter who asked about the Suns' "12-game winning streak:"
    "First of all, it's 13.  I'll be talking about this streak for a long
    time.  Ten years from now, I'll be saying we won every game by 25 or 30
    points."
    
    To a Sun City sportswriter, who stopped to interview Richard Dumas
    before Sir Charles: "Hey, let's get this straight: Even when I play
    (expletive), you come to me first."
    
    On 1992: "The end of '92 has been awesome."
    
    And on the New Year: "I'm REALLY looking forward to '93."

        <<< OOBIE::OOBIE$DKA200:[NOTES$LIBRARY]BOSTON_CELTICS.NOTE;1 >>>
              -< Welcome Back to the Boston Celtics Conference! >-
================================================================================
Note 9.674                      The Phoenix Suns                      674 of 674
TNPUBS::NAZZARO "Why won't BC play UMass?"           39 lines  18-JAN-1993 15:10
                 -< Text of the NBA's denial of Suns protest >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here is the NBA press release on the denial of the appeal:
    
    New York, January 15 - "NBA commissioner David Stern today denied the 
    protest filed by the Phoenix Suns concerning their 114-113 overtime
    loss to the San Antonio Spurs on January 3.
    
    The Suns had contended that a technical foul should have been assessed
    against the Spurs with four-tenths of a second remaining in the fourth
    quarter because the Spurs had six men on the court when the referee
    handed the ball to San Antonio's Avery Johnson to be inbounded.  Before
    the ball had been inbounded, the referees detected that the Spurs had
    an extra player on the court and permitted San Antonio to remove a
    player from the game.
    
    While acknowledging that San Antonio had an extra player on the court
    when Johnson was given the ball, Stern determined that the officials
    were not required to call a technical foul because no violation had
    occurred.
    
    In his opinion, Stern noted that although the Official NBA Rules (Rule 
    12, Part A, Section IV-c) state that 'it is the responsibility of each
    game to have the proper number of players on the court at all times,'
    Example 280 of the 1992-93 Case Book (a supplement to the Official
    Rules) expressly states that 'the ball must be thrown in for a
    violation of Rule 12, Part A, Section IV-c to occur.'
    
    Stern also said that in allowing San Antonio to remove a player from
    the court before the ball was thrown in (thereby avoiding the
    assessment of a technical foul), the officials acted in conformity with
    long-standing league practice.  Whenever a team has an improper number
    of players on the court, NBA officals are instructed, whenever
    possible, to correct the situation (as was done here) before the ball
    goes back into play.
    
    The last time a protest was upheld involved a November 30, 1982 game
    between the Spurs and the Los Angeles Lakers, when it was rules that a
    referee's misinterpretation of a rule involving a double lane violation
    during a free throw adversely affected San Antonio's opportunity to win
    the game."
    

    Please don't give /Don any ideas.  I prefer the Rodman shirt he's
    got...

Any further update on Suns-Knicks game??

The Crazy Met

    re: .42 and Barkley
    
    So are 'ya saying the Suns lost because of the refs?? Where have we
    heard that one before :-)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Po', po' Charles.  Victimized by the NBA's most blatant but successful
    marketing tool, the home-court officiating advantage.  Shouldn't a
    superstar like Charles, who the league vitally depends on, have been 
    clued in to this reality by now?
    
    glenn
      

    Looking over those Barkley quips, I gotta ask, If it was anyone besides
    Charles, would he be called a racist?

    
    > Example 280 of the 1992-93 Case Book (a supplement to the Official
    > Rules) expressly states that 'the ball must be thrown in for a
    > violation of Rule 12, Part A, Section IV-c to occur.'
    
    Isn't this excrutiatingly explicit, Mike?  A documented interpretation 
    to this very case.  Or is it the Suns' contention that "thrown in"
    means by the ref, to the inbounds man.  What party line are the Suns 
    handing out to contradict this black-and-white rules interpretation?
    
    glenn
    

|    
|  >> Looking over those Barkley quips, I gotta ask, If it was anyone besides
|  >> Charles, would he be called a racist?
|    
|     I was thinking pretty much the same thing when I read them. But I came
|     to the conclusion that we'll never know because no one else would even
|     try it.  


Taken singularly, the quotes could be considered racist.

On the other hand, if you've ever listened to Charles speak in a serious
forum, I do not believe the man is racist by a long shot.

Add in the spice that Charles says things to be outrageous, and the fact
that it's probably NO different than what they say amongst themselves in
the lockerroom, and I'd say no, it doesn't seem it to me...


'Saw

    
    Charles can get by saying it because he is not serious about it. 
    Similarly, one of the funniest scenes in Blazing Saddles is when the
    barroom dancer says to the black sheriff "eeez eet true what they say
    about black men?"  
    
    When a executive for MLB says that blacks do not have the capacity to
    be managers, that is racism.  You need to look past the words and
    towards the actions of a person.
    
    Bruce, who is getting tired of the Suns BLAMing the refs for every loss  

>     Surprisingly well said, 'Sawman.

Well, like the oldest player on a baseball team, I still have a few 
moments left in the summer sun....


'Saw (who give his left you-know-what to be in the Bahamas right now)

    Isaiah didn't get away with it...

    
    Isiah did get away with it, Rodman didn't.  Isiah was not serious,
    Rodman seened to be.
    
    Bruce

    In case you didn't hear what prompted Charles to climb the table and go
    after the ref...
    
    The official yelled to Barkley from the tunnel, "This is gonna cost you
    money!"  As Charles said, "You can't control me with money."
    
    Mike

    First, we need a Pistoins fan (Walt?) to get in here so we can figure
    out how to spel  Isiah's name.
    
    I have never been a fan of his, but I never really believed he was
    serious in backing Rodman.  I was more a Yeah, and monkey's might fly
    out of my butt type agreement.  JMHO.
    
    Bruce

    Isiah

    tanks, I taught so...

    And if a player is held in the NFL it's holding...
    And if a pass goes over two lines, it's offsides...
    
    In either case, it's not always called.  Until you get instant replay
    installed, you have to live with it...
    

    Gotta love Barkley.  He may be outrageous, but he seems to say what he
    feels (at least what he feels at that moment).  And, he's one heck of a
    player.
    
    Lee

    One of the New York Post writers said on a local talk show last night,
    "The officiating was horrendous on both ends of the floor!"  Then in
    the next breath he said Charles should be suspended for 2 weeks.  Go
    figure!
    
    NBA personnel, sports media, and fans have complained about the lousy
    officiating for a couple years now.  Here's your chance to make a
    change to the league that is very appearance conscious!  Write a letter
    and complain:
    
    NBA
    645 5th Ave.
    NY, NY  10022

    
    8^)

    So what if he didn't touch him.  It was still unsportsmanlike and
    unprofessional and sets a bad example for atheletes (especially young
    ones) everywhere.

> Or maybe it's because the only other real excitement in 
> Phoenix is going down to the supermarket parking lot and watching
> the checkout boys retrieve the carts.

Thank you Tommy!! Needed that laugh!

The Crazy Met

    
    Tommy, you've been on my good side for a while, but now you pissed me
    off.  Your shopping cart remark really upset me and was an insult to
    all Phoenix residents, Suns fans or not.  Wait a minute, I don't
    actually live in Phoenix, so it's OK.
    
    And in answer to your question, it seems the refs are to BLAM for every
    Suns loss.  It's pretty sickening here.  It's about all you here on the
    radio or read in the paper.
    
    Brews
     

    Charles has been fined $10,000 and suspended for tonight's Cleveland
    game.
    
    Mike

    
    I thunk I heard that the game, to him, is worth $29K.
    
    As a non-certified weenie, non-propellerhaid, how's the math work our?
    
    I remain,
    a pie eater, not a pi figger'r
    Kev
    

That suspension is going to really get in the way of his getting the record for
most technicals in a season.

j.

    not really
    

They said on WFAN that it would cost charles about 40K all told.....

    
    I saw an interview with Barkley (after he cooled off) and he was
    really quite humble and apologetic about what he did Monday.  Of 
    course as the player being punished he believes that the sentence is
    excessive, but he admits that what he did was wrong and he knew that
    he deserved something.  Maybe Charles should make an appeal to his more
    obsessive fans to follow his example...
    
    glenn
     

    Jordan received a 1 game suspension last year for *bumping* a ref, Charles 
    merely *confronted* the ref.  Since this was in New York, and the media 
    went crazy over it, plus Rod Thorn was in attendance, the NBA was forced 
    to do something drastic.
    
    Meanwhile, the Suns lost in Cleveland last night 123-119.  The absence 
    of ex-Sun Mike Sanders was the difference in the ball game.
    
    Mike

 >   <<< Note 36.76 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>> 
 >             -< Apparently not everyone in Phoenix is brainwashed... >
    
    Are you talkin about me?  8^)

    Jumping over a table and chasing a ref down the tunnel is quite the
    "confrontation".

    Is it true that the real reason for declaring the state of Arizona a
    disaster area was that Charles was suspended?

    
    	Oh come on now...."Mike Sanders was the difference"??????
    
    	NO WAY!  The Cavs dominated in every aspect of the game.  The
    Cavs were up by 15 then skated to the win.  The game was won with
    the Cavs bench and at the free throw line!  Not to mention the back
    board where Daughtery picked up 19 rebounds...a carrier high!
    
    	Lets put it another way....Phoenix was out of this game from the
    very start!  
    
    	
             o
    	Go CaVs!

    
    ahem 'Saw,
    
    According to my friend's calculator, the $29K cost of the suspended
    game AND the $10K fine equals $39K which I believe is close enough to
    $40K to qualify as "almost $40K".  
    
    Boy, those noo yawk WFANS are brilliant 'bout 'rithmatic!
    
    no?
    
    AND, 
    
    could somebody explain how a basketbaqll player jumping over a table to
    kick the crap out of a official "insults" the memory of MLK?
    This honkey don't see the connection.
    
    I remain,
    a borrower of adding machines
    Kev
    

    Tommy, you're on a real roll...
    
>    After you get 15 or 16 championships under your belt you'll know
>    what I mean.
    
    After being born and raised a Celt's fan, I can assure you that it is
    16.  
    
>    (How's that last line for hate-inducing, succesful-franchise, fan 
>     arrogance ?)

    Not bad, but you obviously forgot my background and assumed that I no
    longer root for Boston.
    
    Re: -1
    
    and if {insert fav female relative} had filberts she would be your
    {insert fav male relative}.  So who cares, Tommy?

    Tommy, I was referring to your .81.

    Suns got back on track by winning in Landover and Atlanta over the
    weekend.  The Atlanta game was truely bizarre!  Phoenix was pretty
    lethargic the whole first half on defense.  I got up to take care of
    mother nature's call halfway thru the 3rd quarter with the score 72-60,
    Atlanta.  I returned with the 3rd quarter over and Phoenix was *UP*
    98-81!!!  
    
    It seems Westphal put in a small lineup of Barkley (C), Majerle (F),
    Ainge (F), KJ (G), and FJ (G).  This crew went ballistic on the Hawks
    and ended the game in that 6 minute span.  
    
    Barkley had all his relatives there (bought 75 tickets) and it sounded
    like Atlanta was cheering for the visitors.
    
    Richard Dumas has led the team in scoring twice on this trip so far.  
    Says a lot for a rookie (has only played 16 games so far) and is
    starting on the NBA's #1 team.
    
    Mike

Article 28682 of rec.sport.basketball.pro:
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From: mg5c+@andrew.cmu.edu (Michael D. Goettsche)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Barkley - the man

Charles Barkley - the man, the myth, the cult figure.  What a beast!

I loved that string on Barkley regarding the incident in the Big Apple. 
I think what you saw, for the most part, was an overwhelming show of
support for Sir Charles.  He is one of the most popular players in the
NBA because of his talent and his jaw - this is reflected in the
All-Star voting.  Last year, I believe he was the highest vote getter in
the LEAGUE (Move over, Michael!) simply because he brings a certain
dynamicism to the game that no one else brings.  NO ONE!  You never know
what he will do.  He has the talent to do as much as Michael Jordan (Low
post, perimeter game, slicing through the air, Magical passing,
REBOUNDING (AHEM!), and instilling fire in his teammates), but then
there is the x-factor for entertainment value above and beyond just
playing.  He is without a doubt the most intense player in the NBA -- he
will stop at nothing to win!  The only player I can see matching up
intensity wise is Dennis Rodman.  

Sure, some of his antics lead to a highly negative perception of him in
the media.  I read a lot of articles after the trade that said Phoenix
gave up to much for Charles and that they were taking a risk with a
malcontent superstar.  They predicted Philly would probably make the
playoffs this year as an 8 seed and win more games than they could have
with Charles.  Granted, Philly has won some games lately, but you would
be hard pressed to find many people now that consider that Philly got
the best of the trade.  I have constantly read articles talking about
Charles' antics (the Angola game, the spitting incident, etc.) that make
it sound like the public really doesn't like him, but I think a couple
of SI articles, and the overwhelming amount of fan support really crush
this string of thinking.  During the Olympics, Charles was easily the
most popular Dream Teamer.  While most of his teammates were relaxing in
their $1000/night hotel, Charles was out on the streets with the common
people, drinking beer, having the time of his life.  Or he was
supporting the rest of the United States athletics programs,
particularly the woman's basketball team.  Whereas his teammates were
removed and isolated from the Olympic experience, Charles was a part of
the experience, and the camaraderie and good will that he showed towards
the Spaniards really endeared him to the hearts of the people of Madrid.
 And then his playing -- oh, LORD!  He stood out above all the other
Dream Teamers, above Magic, Bird, and Mike.  No wonder he was one of the
most popular athletes during the Olympics.

His record for signing autographs is impeccable -- he goes above and
beyond the call of duty to please the fans.  It makes life hard on his
teammates sometimes waiting for him to stop signing autographs so the
bus can leave, but it's hard to argue with someone who loves the game so
much, who has gotten so much from the game and is trying to give it
back.  I've seen clips of him playing out on the courts with little
kids, not his own, mind you, but those that adore and respect the big
bald, awkward looking forward.  Can you imagine how that touches their
lives??  Most other stars simply look away, saying that they don't have
time to give to such trivial things -- not Charles.  Charles is
consistantly rated as one of the most charitable athletes around,
lending his services and his money to many organizations that are aimed
at making life better for others.  He spends a great deal of time
visiting children's hospitals and patients, not because he feels he has
to, but because he wants to.  Surely we all know that Charles is a man
that won't do that which he doesn't want to.  He is fiercely
independent, unafraid to speak his mind regarding anything and
everything.  He says things that the rest of his colleagues are afraid
to say, Michael Jordan once said.  That is what is most frightening --
Charles is very much aware of what goes on, and he just tells it like it
is.

There you have him.  He is at once a plethora of characters.  Charles
the Jester.  Charles the Competitor.  Charles the Superstar.  Charles
the Compassionate.  Charles the Rousers.  Charles the Great.  He asks
only for your respect, that you will never underestimate him.  Needless
to say, for the majority of people, he has all the respect in the world.
God bless you, Charles.

DA FLAV

    Sounds like the Suns crushed the Rodman-less Pistons by 2 lasted night.
    Pistons are 0-10 this year without Rodman...
    

and Saint Charles has been fine a total of $109,000.00 in his career....

what a guy....

    He invested 109K on his image.  The payback for the 109K was prolly
    made up in one commercial.  
    
    Iffin her were a regular player, he would get far fewer endorsements.
    
    Not a bad business move.  Ask 'Da Bozman or Tony MassSteriodvich.

    Suns were up by 16 in the 4th before they started coasting and let the
    Pistons catch up.
    
    I don't know where your info comes from, but the local papers say
    Charles has received NBA fines totaling $140K over his career.
    
    Mike

Did the Pistons have a chance to tile late in the 4th?? Anyone know?
If they did then coasting was certainly not an intelligent move.

The Crazy Met

from the boob calling the game last night. I was switching back and forth
with the Big East terrific action so I didn't hear him long enough to
figure out who he was........

140K's even better if like the NBA says all the money goes to charity...

mike

    TCM, Terry Mills barely missed a tres at the buzzer that would've won
    the game.  Suns have had a terrible habit lately of coasting after
    gaining a double-digit lead.  
    
    Mike

    
    The way Dumas has been playing, the Suns will soon be his team, not
    Charles'.  
    
    Brews

    He's still the league's best kept secret despite starting for the NBA's
    #1 team after only 5 games (16 total).  It says a lot to lead this team
    in scoring 3 times in the last week.
    
    Mike

    Take the Woofs tonight... straight up.
    
    
    Spud

    I was just thinking how funny it is that the "spirit of the rules"
    applies to 6 men on the court, but not to talking to referees after a
    game.
    
    Charles is definitely a marked man and the suspension proved it.

Huh?

    Thanks Metz for so succinctly stating what many of us are wondering.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Pheonix needs OT to beat those monsters from Minnesota the
    Timberwolves. Suns won 117-116. Suns have to learn to beat the bad team
    decisively and to beat some good teams on the road. Teams without the
    killer instinct rarely win championships - just ask the 1984 Lakers who
    did not have it and lost in 7 games and the 1985 Lakers that did have
    it and won in 6 games.
    
    The Crazy Met

    
    I think that what Mike H was saying is that all that the misunderstood
    Charles Barkley has ever wanted to do is "talk", and the NBA
    hypocritically won't let him do so.  When he jumped over that scorer's
    table he just wanted to make sure he could get ahold a that ref to
    invite him out for lunch before he left the building...
    
    glenn
    

    Phoenix should have never come back to win anyway.  It just shows how
    good they are.  Woofs were hotter than they've ever been, taking a 21
    point first half lead.  They were shooting 80+% for most of the half.
    Phoenix, led by Barkley made a great run and cut it to six in the
    closing seconds of the first half, then hit two three's in the last 1+
    seconds to tie it at the half.  It was a battle after that and the
    Woofies had the best chances to win at the end of regulation and OT,
    but Ainge picks up a miss and gets the winning put-back with .7 seconds
    left in OT.  
    
    Poor Woofies, they tried so hard and came up short again.  Sid Lowe has
    done an amazing job getting complete effort out of these guys that
    Rodgers couldn't dream of doing.  THAT's why I predicted the win. 
    Woofs are still not winning, but believe me, no game from the new
    Woofies is a gimmie any more.
    
    
    Spud

    Re: Barkley & Glenn, TCM, Metz
    
    You guys are missing the obvious.  The rule book explicitly states in
    black & white, letter of the law style, that players do not talk to
    refs off the court.  It also states in the same style that 6 players on
    the court with a live ball is a violation punishable by technical foul.
    
    The "spirit of the rules", as David Stern so wonderfully put it,
    applied to the latter, but not the former.  This tells me that Charles
    is a marked man with Rod Thorn.  The fine was adequate.  The suspension
    tells me that Thorn has had it with him and decided to try something
    more drastic to try and "control" Charles.
    
    Mike

Based on performance, it was obvious that the Suns were playing their last game
of a 6-game road trip.  They also appeared to take the Wolves a little too
lightly.  However, a win is a win and we'll take it.  The Suns *TROUNCED* the
Wolves 117-116 in OT.  Westy said, "I don't care how we did it.  I just wanted a
win and to get out of here."  Thunder Dan added that, "...a couple months from
now, nobody will remember this game.  Only that we won it."  Barkley led the
way with 32 points and 24 boards for the Suns.  Phoenix is now 14-0 against the
Wolves and Heat.  Chicago is the only other team that can stake that claim.

The Wolves came out smoking in the opening quarter led by Chuck Person's 20
points (yes 20 in the first).  The team warned rookie Richard Dumas to not let
him get started or he could be lethal.  After that they put Thunder Dan on him
and he only scored 8 the rest of the game.  Minnesota led by 21 early in
the 2nd when the Suns started their run.  Phoenix came within 6 points with
about 5 seconds left until intermission.  Majerle hit a 3, Minnesota had an
inbounds violation, and Sir Charles hit a 3.  An awesome comeback from 21 down
to *TIE* it up!  You could see the look in the Woofies eyes and they were
skeert! ;-)  

The 3rd quarter saw Phoenix race out to a 9 point lead to try and put the home
team away.  Once again, the Suns went into a lapse and the Wolves crawled back
into it and it was nip and tuck in the 4th quarter.  Suns had the ball with 4
seconds left, score tied at 108, and Sir Charles couldn't get a shot off in
time.

The OT period was nip and tuck too.  The Suns come up with a key defensive
and call timeout with about 7 seconds left and the score 116-115, Wolves.
KJ takes the shot, but it's blocked, Long Range Ainge grabbed the loose ball
and scored with .7 seconds remaining.  Person clanged a shot at the buzzer.
Suns definitely dodged a bullet on this one, but as Sir Charles said about the
Wolves effort, "Even a bad clock is right twice a day."

Now that they've played 23 road games, and the killer January schedule is almost
over, the Suns are looking pretty good for the remainder.  They finished
January's 11 road games at 7-4 and still have the NBA's best overall record,
best road record, and best home record.  From now until February's end, the Suns
have 10 home games and only 5 road games (no more than 2 in a trip).

Mike

    How was the Super Bowl hype down there?  Must be good to get Arizona
    a SB finally... oh yeah, they moved it... No wonder everyone is Suns
    crazy....

    
    I'm glad we didn't get THIS game.  Maybe the '96 game will be better.
    
    We were talking about Phoenix' support of sporting events.  The Phoenix
    Open ended yesterday.  Despite having it's finale on SB Sunday, it 
    always is the highest attended of all the PGA events, with over 360,000
    people attending this year's event. Phoenix is also being considered
    heavily for the next round of NHL expansion.  It is among the leaders
    in attendance in the IHL.  THis is especially significant when you
    realize that there is _one_ public rink for the general population to
    play hockey.
    
    brews 

    Suns gained a measure of revenge this weekend by polishing off both San
    Antonio and Dallas by 20 points.  They completely dominated both teams.
    
    Friday night, the Spurs came to town riding a 10-game winning streak,
    but the streakbusters *TROUNCED* them 125-110.  Long Range Ainge scored 
    a season-high 26 points, including 5-of-7 from 3-point land, and the 
    The win marked the 5th in a row for the Suns, who returned home
    after a 4-2 road trip.  Sir Charles and KJ each finished with 21
    points.  Barkley also grabbed 11 rebounds amd KJ dished out 11 assists.
    Sean Elliott and Dale Ellis paced San Antonio with 19 points apiece,
    while Lloyd Daniels had 16. David Robinson finished with 15 points, 10
    rebounds and 3 blocks.
    
    The Suns used an 11-2 3rd-quarter run, 5 points by KJ, to build a 77-66 
    advantage. San Antonio pulled within 84-77, but Phoenix closed the quarter 
    with a 12-4 spurt to open a 96-81 bulge.  Long Range Ainge went for the
    jugular by ending the quarter with a pair of 3-pointers.  The Suns led by 
    as many as 28 points in the 4th quarter.

    On Saturday night, the Suns treated their PGA guests from the Phoenix
    Open by abusing the Dallas Mavs 126-105.  Thunder Dan scored 30 points 
    and set a franchise record with 8 3-pointers.  He missed the NBA record
    by 1.  It was the Suns 6th straight win.  Sir Charles pulled in 14 
    rebounds while Tom Chambers grabbed 13 boards for the Suns.
    Dallas fell to 1-9 under interim coach and former Sun Garfield Heard.
    Randy White led the Mavericks with 30 points and Terry Davis pulled
    down 17 rebounds for the 2nd straight game.
    
    Notebook:
    ---------
    Phoenix has played the most road games in the NBA and has the best road
    record in the league to go with the best home record and best overall.
    They will only get better with the string of home games coming up and
    time to practice.  Westphal said teams don't practice much on the road
    because of the hectic schedule.
    
    Mike

  ummm...Mike. 

>polishing off both San Antonio and Dallas by 20 points

  According to my calculator, 125-110 over the Spurs is *15* points.  126-105
  for the Mavs is 21 points.  That doesn't even average out to 20 points.

  Please explain :^)

  Kath

    What Mike meant was:
    
    polishing off both San Antonio, and Dallas by 20 points
    
    brews, aka the comma cop

    No I didn't Brews.  If you read further down, you'll see that the Suns
    lead the Spurs by 28 most of the 4th quarter.  The final score was just
    a formality.

    I forgot to post that Jerry Colangelo announced last week that they
    will retire the Greyhound's number next year.
    
    Mike

Are they retiring his coke spoon too?

    Last Friday night, Ken's hated Lakers came to town.  The good guys
    (Suns) dodged a bullet and barely squeaked by the visitors 132-104.
    The game was closer than the final score indicates as Phoenix held a 32
    point lead late in the 3rd quarter and not a single starter played the
    4th quarter.  This enabled the Lakers to cut 4 points off the deficit.
    
    Thunder Dan scored 17 of his 29 points in the 1st half and Richard 
    Dumas added 24 to lead the Suns.  Sir Charles poured in 20 points for
    the Suns, who stretched their home winning streak to 14 games and 
    improved their home mark to an NBA-best 17-1.
    
    Phoenix has won 8 of its last 9 games overall. The Suns, who have never 
    swept a season series from the Lakers, are 3-0 against Los Angeles this 
    season. 
    
    Majerle played only 29 minutes but connected on 11 of 18 field-goal
    attempts, including 4-for-6 from 3-point range. He led 6 Suns in
    double figures, including Mark West with 15 points and Cedric Ceballos
    with 12.
    
    A.C. Green led Los Angeles with 20 points and 15 rebounds.  Byron Scott 
    and Sedale Threatt, the Lakers' starting guards, were a combined 5-for-18 
    from the field and managed only 11 points.

    Yesterday, Shaq-man came to town and tried to destroy all the new equipment
    in front of a national NBC audience.  The Suns played out of sync for 3
    quarters as they toyed with the visitors.  They put the game away in
    the final quarter since the Magic couldn't stand to be teased any
    longer.  The final was 122-105.  Dumas led all scorers on both sides
    with 32 points (not bad for a rookie in his 20th game).  Barkley just
    overwhelmed the inside players in the final minutes on both ends of the
    court.  Charles did an awesome job of defending Shaq in crunch time. 
    Even outleaped him on a jump ball!
    
    Notebook:
    ---------
    The Suns are now #1 in the NBA in:
                  - overall record
                  - home record
                  - road record
                  - point differential or victory margin (+7 something)
                  - 3 point efficiency
    
    - If Majerle isn't selected to the All-Star team, it would be tragic. 
      Charles alone has not put this team where it is and Barkley said so
      himself.  He said Thunder belongs there!
    
    - Current rumors involve Knight, Ceballos, and Mustaf going to L.A. for
      Danny Manning.  Pretty much the same 3 they offered for Jimmy
      Jackson.

    re retired Suns jerseys:
    
    I'm waiting for the Suns to retire Ed NEaly's # next.  Hail, ya
    practically just havta breath to get your number retired by the team.
    
    brews 

    
    Why did the Suns ditch their nice, clean uniforms with the attractive
    Suns' logo for those gawdawful Houston Astros ketchup-stain numbers with
    a basketball (how original!) plopped on top?  Is there some contest on
    in the NBA now where everyone is trying to outdo the others for pure
    gaudiness?
    
    glenn
    

    It's in the eye of the beholder.  People have been laughing at the
    Celtics 1940 style uniforms for years.
    
    I do notice a trend where all teams are getting black into their
    designs some how.  It's a hot color now (gang-related or not).

    
    
    re: -1
    
>    I do notice a trend where all teams are getting black into their
>    designs some how.  It's a hot color now (gang-related or not).
    
    Nothing new here, we ref's have been wear'n black for quite some time.
    
    Only bad thing is that all my sweats are black, my underwear is black,
    T-shirts are black, pants are black, shoes are black, socks are black,
    jacket is black...so black is getting a little boring for this ref...
    But there is no problem with mix or match!!!
    
    bill..g.
    

>    Only bad thing is that all my sweats are black, my underwear is black,

    try a different detergent......
    
    
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    domesticated!
    Kev
    

    
    re: Mike
    
    	Both inside and out..  hard to find clothes that are one color
    on the out and a different one on the in..
    
    	Most folks don't realize that we gots to wear black undergarmets
    just in case the ole pants do a split-a-roo out on the court.  It
    cain be a loooong half if dem plaid boxers are hanging out!  So, I
    know someofyous are jealous cause we git to wear black underwear, but
    believe me, it's necessary... except in those rare cases when some
    guys bring along the garter belt...
    
    re: Kev
    
    	I've tried all kinds of detergent.  Only results I get are fading.

    Thunder Dan was added to the All-Star squad for the 2nd year in a row.
    In addition to Barkley, Ceballos will be there to defend his "Blind"
    dunk championship and Connie Hawkins will be in the ole timer's game.
    
    I couldn't believe Hornacek finished 3rd in the guard voting and still
    wasn't added to the East roster.
    
    Walter Davis leads the franchise with 6 All-Star appearances.
    
    Mike

    Mark West has the NBA's 3rd longest Iron Man streak going at 380
    consecutive games.

    
    it's not fair, he's more rested from always fouling out so early.  8^)
    
    brews

    Suns blasted the Clippers last night 122-100.  The game was over in the
    1st quarter as the Suns scored a franchise 1st quarter record 41
    points.  They also had 74 by halftime.  The lead grew to 30 at one
    point.
    
    Thunder Dan has been added to the 3pt shootout.
    
    Mike

 Hornecek snubbing:

  "take it to the Rack" and Grandmama don't want no trash talkin' boston
   lovin, hockey playin' white boys on the team. They wanna go out and kick
   the West's ass this year....

  :^)

 mike

    
    Hey Bill, maybe detergent only fades it, but try using bleach, it
    should have some good results.
    
    Marc
    

    The Phoenix Suns rode the 32 points of Sir Charles and a 2nd-quarter 
    surge last night to a 110-97 dumping of the Boston Celtics.  Phoenix has 
    won 17 straight games at home and the Suns -- owners of the *BEST
    RECORD* in the NBA (37-10) -- are 20-1 on their own court this season.

    Tom Chambers added 22 points and 12+ boards for the Suns while Boston, 
    which dropped its 2nd straight, was paced by Reggie Lewis with 24 points.

    The Celts led by as many as 6 in the 1st period and owned a 31-27
    advantage after the opening quarter. But Phoenix opened a 54-46 halftime
    lead and never looked back the rest of the way.  They seemed to toy
    with the Green Team until the final 8 minutes where they surged to a
    double-digit lead.  

    I believe last night was the best I've ever seen Dee Brown play under
    control.  Obviously, the absence of KJ helped him immensely.

    Note'n'Quotes
    -------------
    Bob Ryan was on a local radio show on Monday night reminiscing with
    Suns followers over their 25th anniversary.  A few of his quotes really
    stood out:

    "Many NBA executives have the basketball knowledge and analytical
     skills to come up with the big deals, but few pull the trigger like
     Jerry Colangelo does."

    "Relish every minute of this season.  We (Boston) are now stuck with an
     unexciting, mediocre team and it's the memories that keep you going."

    "I'm making my reservations now for Phoenix and Chicago in June!"

    
    
    Thought I'd move the Suns  championship discussion from the bugs note.
    
    I was at the Celtics game earlier this week, and managed to uphold the
    honor of being an obnoxious Celtics fan.  I was behaving quite well
    through the 1st half, ugh th 1st half, minding my own business, and
    just applauding when the Celts made a nice play.  
    
    Finally, the fat, BR Cynus-loving, Suns fan decided she'd had enough at
    halftime.  First, she said that sinse I liked Boston so much, I should
    just move back.  Then, she proudly pointed out that the Suns had the #1
    voted mascot in ALL of sports.  I quipped back that the Celtics don't
    need mascots, they have Championships instead.  Her husband then joined
    in the fray, which continued for the rest of the game.  By the time the
    game was over, I'd converted two more people to the anti's.  Gosh it
    was fun!
    
    brews

    Brews, did ya tell them it will be a minimum of 5 years before they
    think about hanging another banner?
    
    Suns blew away Atlanta last night, 131-119.  Game was over in the 1st
    quarter as the Suns raced to a 15 point lead.  The margin was over 20 by
    halftime.  Phoenix goes into the All-Star weekend with a NBA best 38-10
    record.
    
    Phoenix will be well represented this weekend:
    
    Charles Barkley & Dan Majerle, Coach Paul Westphal & Staff - All-Star game
    Dan Majerle - 3pt Contest    (Ainge was invited but declined)
    Cedric Ceballos - Defending Dunk Champion (Dumas was invited but declined)
    Connie Hawkins - Ole Timers game
    The Gorilla - All-Star game (Best Mascot in the NBA)

    >Brews, did ya tell them it will be a minimum of 5 years before they   
    >think about hanging another banner?
    
    
    C'mon Mike, I was being nice.  Even I think the Suns will at least win
    another Division Championship this year so they can increase the
    banners the soooo proudly hang by 50%.  That IS what you meant, right?
    
    brews

    	Brews only Boston fains say "why don't you move", just axe any
    anti-jihad...
    
    				/Don

    
    /er, they've been saying that to Boston fans here since '76.
    
    brews

Article 7421 of clari.sports.basketball:
Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!nntpd.lkg.dec.com!news.crl.dec.com!deccrl!enterpoop.mit.edu!micro-heart-of-gold.mit.edu!wupost!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball
Subject: Suns going to Europe

	SALT LAKE CITY (UPI) -- The Phoenix Suns will represent the NBA in the
1993 McDonald's Open, which will be played in October in Munich,
Germany, NBA Commissioner David Stern said.
	The tournament has been expanded to include six teams and add a third
night of competition. A top German club will serve as the host team and
the winner of the European Championship for Clubs, which will be played
in Athens on April 15, will receive another automatic berth. The
remaining entries will be made up of other top international club teams,
to be announced at a later date.
	The Suns, led by forward Charles Barkley, point guard Kevin Johnson
and swingman Dan Majerle, have the best record in the NBA at the All-
Star break at 38-10 and are riding an 18-game home winning streak.
	The NBA participant has won the McDonald's Open each year since the
tournament began in 1987. The host Milwaukee Bucks won the inaugural
event, while the Boston Celtics captured the 1988 championship at
Madrid. In 1989, the Denver Nuggets edged Jugoplastika Split by six
points in the title game at Rome.
	The New York Knicks won the 1989 Open and the Los Angeles Lakers
nipped Joventut Badalona by two points to win the 1991 tournament at
Paris.

    rumor going around that the Suns turned down a Dumas for Rodman deal.
    
    brews

    Well the top 2 teams in the NBA met last night in San Antonio.  This
    time, the Spurs promised to play 5-on-5 and the Suns beat them 105-103.
    Sir Charles had an awesome, face-to-face rejection of the Admiral in
    crunch time that would've tied the game.  Who says Charles can't play
    D!
    
    Both teams played without 1 All-Star: Suns were playing without KJ 
    (Negele Knight started for him); Spurs played without Sean Elliott, who 
    was resting his back.  
    
    David Robinson led all scorers with 35 pts.  Barkley, Chambers, and
    Ainge all had roughly the same amount of points as the Suns received
    well-balanced contributions.  Chambers has been playing really well the
    last week and reached double-figures in points and boards for the 3rd
    game in a row.
    
    Mike

>    rumor going around that the Suns turned down a Dumas for Rodman deal.
    
    Not surprising since Dumas, the rookie, is already better than Rodman.  
    Dumas can do it all, Rodman can't.
    
    I'm still chompin at the bit waiting for the announcement of Knight,
    Ceballos, and Mustaf going to the Clips for Manning.
    
    Suns are on pace to give the franchise its first 60-win season.
    
    The All-Star game saw Charles giving one of the nicest gestures I've
    seen since the year he wore Magic's number.  Charles wore #23 in honor
    of Jerry Colangelo (All-Big 10 at Illinois).  As Barkley said, "I did
    it to thank Jerry for all he's done for me and for delivering me from
    Purgatory."
    
    Mike

>    I give up, who?  Everything I've ever heard had Charles finally
>    teaching a Western Conference team what D is.
    
    Mac, the so-called "experts" and scouts have always claimed that Sir
    Charles is defensively soft.

    
    I thought Barkey wanted to weaR #34, butdidn't because he didn't have 
    seniority for it.
    
    brews

    Brews, you missed the pre-game show last night.  Colangelo was touched
    by the sentiment.
    
    Rodman would benefit from the positive environment the Suns present
    too. ;-)  If they get Manning or Rodman by giving up only Knight,
    Ceballos, and Mustaf, you can hand them the trophy now.
    
    Mike

    There are 7 teams that have offers on the table to Detroit for Rodman.
    The Clippers, Miami, and Phoenix appear to be at the top.  Seattle and
    Portland also have offers to try and neutralize Barkley.  Rodman is
    probably the best in the NBA at slowing down Charles.  If Phoenix gets
    him, it's bad news for the West.  Here is the info I have so far:
    
    Phoenix - Knight, Ceballos, Mustaf, and a #1.  Might offer Oliver
              Miller too if necessary.  Pistons covet Dumas but Phoenix
              won't let him go.
    Clippers - Loy Vaught, Gary Grant, and a #1.  Rodman already said today
               that he refuses to play in L.A.
    Miami - details aren't clear but suspicions involve Brian Shaw and
            Willie Burton.  Word has it that they're ready to ante up.
    Seattle - Michael Cage, Dana Barros, and a #1.
    Indiana - Rik Smits and George McCloud.
    Portland - ? haven't heard anything yet.
    7th - don't recall who it is...
    
    The Pistons will naturally wait until the last minute to see what the
    best deal will be.  Colangelo and Co. are playing it close to the vest,
    but they typically have told offices to give them 1 last shot at a counter
    before pulling any triggers.
    
    Interviews with the Detroit press, Piston beat-writers, and Rodman
    himself hint at him coming to Phoenix.
    
    Mike

 Geez when I heard Rodman he said he favored going to a young team that's
 trying to get to the pinnacle of the basketball world. Hoping he could
 be that missing piece and provide leadership from his experience. That
 doesn't sound like Phoenix to me....He should go to Charlotte, they
 deserve him...

 mike

    Stop it Mike, you're starting to sound like a Phoenix fan.
    
    Rodman is the missing piece that would guarantee a championship (i.e.,
    pinnacle) here this June.  

    Rodman + Barkley = Bad Chemistry

    On of the SI writers (Mcellenah?) told Westphal last night in Houston
    that Dumas would be the leading candidate for ROY if it weren't for the
    Shaq.
    
    Latest rumor has the Suns adding Oliver Miller into the Rodman
    sweepstakes.  I'm biased, but I think Phoenix's offer is much better
    than Portland's.
    
    Mike

Mike -

Have a hard time convincing me that Dumas is better than Alonzo
Mourning.   Sorry.

JD

      Charlie musta been sick last night;^)

    Well, last night showed graphically why the Suns don't have much
    of a chance to win the West, never mind the NBA title.  Any team with
    a good big man will dominate them.  In addition to his umpteen points
    and dozen + rebounds, Hakeem also posted NINE blocks, and the Rockets,
    who are kust as young and athletic but much taller than the Suns, ran
    roughshod over the title pretenders from Phoenix, 131-104.
    
    NAZZ

    re: -2 
    
    Mike,
         The Suns deal for Rodman could not have been done for one very
    good reason.  Because of the salary cap restrictions, you can only
    trade 1 for 1.  In addition, those two players' salaries have to be
    within 5% of each other.  That really puts a limit on things.  The
    Portland offer was Duckworth and a #1 in '94 for Rodman.  I'm
    dissappointed that the deal didn't go through.
    
    Glen.

>              -< A good big man usually beats a good little man >-
    
    That's funny Nazz since the last 5 NBA champs all had good little men
    that beat up on the good big men.

>    Well, last night showed graphically why the Suns don't have much
>    of a chance to win the West, never mind the NBA title.  Any team with
>    a good big man will dominate them.  In addition to his umpteen points
>    and dozen + rebounds, Hakeem also posted NINE blocks, and the Rockets,
>    who are kust as young and athletic but much taller than the Suns, ran
>    roughshod over the title pretenders from Phoenix, 131-104.
    
    It's even funnier when the Suns get blown out for the first time this
    year and people post stuff like this.  Even the '86 Celtics were blown
    out a couple times during the regular season.  Nobody will beat Houston
    the way they've been playing the past few weeks.  Celts went into
    Houston last week and were trounced by 40.
    
    The guards have been shooting over 65% from 3pt land during the Rocket
    streak (they did this last Feb-Mar too).  Whenever they do that, you
    can't double Hakeem, and nobody will beat them without shooting just as
    well.  The absence of KJ showed last night as well.  They need KJ's
    penetration to beat a time like Houston.  Knight just can't cut it.
    
    I'm surprised a basketball mind like Nazz didn't pick this up.  And by
    the way, this was the Rockets first win against the Suns this year. 
    Phoenix has already beaten them once in Houston and once here.  So much
    for your theory.
    
    Mike

    You should be disappointed.  Getting an all-star like Rodman for a
    stiff like Duckworth and a late #1 pick would be a steal.  I'd take
    Vaught/Grant/#1 or Ceballos/Knight/Miller or Ceballos/Knight/#1 before
    I'd take Duckworth/#1.

    Actually, you can do a two-for-one or even a three-for-one deal
    withing the salary cap, if you have room under the cap for the
    additional guys, and if one of the guys you are picking up has a
    salary that is within 15% of thge guy you are trading.
    
    Just because Glen Ordway has his knee-jerk response that deals can't be
    made because of the salary cap doesn't mean that it's true!
    
    NAZZ

    Hey Walt, if you would've done those deals, then you would have loved
    these 2 rumors that were floating around late last night.  The Suns
    threw more bodies into it to offset keeping Dumas.
    
    1. Knight, Ceballos, Mustaf, #1 pick
    2. Knight, Ceballos, Mustaf, Miller
    
    Knight would've fit in perfect since he's from Detroit (went to
    Dayton).
    
    Mike

    Is Mustaf healthy? I've never seen him do anything.  I'd have done the
    deal with Miller thrown in. It's time to rebuild this team...
    

    Mustaf is healthy now, he played last night.  He's been on IR as much
    as KJ this season.

    I don't know, he just hasn't really impressed me.  13 games, what does
    he do for the Suns besides pick splinters?
    

    nothing.  He's the eternal project that they're hoping will suddenly
    bloom like Tim Perry did last year.  Maybe then they can use him for
    trade bait.
    
    Pretty sad when he's all they have left to show for Eddie Johnson. 
    Mustaf should've stayed in school, he'd be a rookie this year.
    
    Mike

    {taken off of Usenet}
    
     NO DEAL -- SUNS INTACT AFTER TRADING DEADLINE
           by Lee Shappell, Arizona Republic, Copyright 1993

    The NBA trading deadline passed Thursday night with the Detroit Pistons 
    passing on the Suns' offer of Cedric Ceballos, Negele Knight, Jerrod 
    Mustaf and Oliver Miller in exchange for defense/rebounding terror Dennis 
    "Worm" Rodman.

    The Pistons held out for Suns rookie forward Richard Dumas, who has 
    become the second-leading scorer on the team.  "We never tossed Richard 
    Dumas into the mix and we were never going to," said Dick Van Arsdale, 
    Suns player personnel director.

    The Suns also made it known to the Los Angeles Clippers and Dallas 
    Mavericks that lesser versions of packages involving those players were 
    available in exchange for Danny Manning, or the rights to unsigned
    swingman Jimmy Jackson, respectively.  Rodman, Manning, and the rights to 
    Jackson did not move anywhere before the deadline.  "It was a lot of 
    effort," Suns President Jerry Colangelo said shortly after Thursday's 7pm 
    [mst] deadline.  "It was kind of like spinning your wheels, but you give 
    it a shot.  Detroit advised us they wanted to go in another direction, but 
    I don't know what direction that might be."

    The Suns had indications even before the final day of trading that the 
    Clippers and Mavericks weren't interested in the Suns' package offer.
    There were rumors that the Suns also tried to swap Mustaf for Thurl 
    Bailey of the Minnesota Timberwolves.  "We did talk to Minnesota about a 
    trade, but they had to do something because of the salary cap before they 
    could make a deal with us, and they were not able to do that," Colangelo 
    said.  Mustaf has played in only 21 games, averaging four points and two 
    rebounds.  Bailey, in his 10th pro season, the first 8 1/2 with Utah, has 
    been inconsistent during his time with the Timberwolves.  The Suns would 
    have relieved themselves of a three-year $5.095 million obigation to 
    Mustaf had they been able to consummate a deal.

    Rodman, the NBA rebounding leader this season and last, and a two-time 
    defensive player of the year, seemed a perfect mix of the skills the Suns 
    believe they need to put them over the top in their quest for a title.
    But not at the price of Dumas.  "You don't tear up a nucleus when you 
    have the best record in the NBA," Colangelo said.  The four players 
    offered really are not part of the Suns' nucleus anymore.  The Suns 
    instead are playing their seasoned veterans, with the exception of Dumas, 
    who is one of the league's top newcomers as a starter.

    Other offers for Rodman came from the Portland Trail Blazers and Seattle 
    SuperSonics, two strong Western Conference teams who were looking for a 
    player capable of stopping Suns All-Star forward Charles Barkley.
    "That would make sense," Van Arsdale said.  "Portland and Seattle can use 
    someone who can go up against Barkley.  I know both of those teams made 
    impressive offers for Rodman."  Portland offered center Kevin Duckworth 
    and a 1994 first-round draft pick.  Seattle countered with veteran
    center-forward Michael Cage and young guard Dana Barros.

    Among those who believed the Suns should have included Dumas in their 
    offer for Rodman is New York Knicks Coach Pat Riley, whose team has the 
    second-best mark in the NBA and might meet the Suns in the NBA Finals.
    "He's good, but they can also get (what Dumas does) from Ceballos and 
    (Dan) Majerle," Riley said.  "So it's interesting.  They've had a lot of 
    young pieces out there.  They gave up three for Charles, now they're ready
    to give up four more young athletic people.  That says a lot about their 
    mentality.  You might say to yourself, 'What's happening to their overall 
    development?'  Well, it isn't about developing players.  It's about 
    winning, and the Suns recognize that.  If you've got three or four young 
    guys plus some seasoned championshipo veterans, you've got a chance to 
    win."

    Suns claim their 40th victory tonight at home against Utah, 113-106. 
    Barkley notched his *2nd TRIPLE DOUBLE* in the last 7 days.  He must
    lead the NBA with 5 or so by now.  
    
    Cavs are up next on Sunday.  I think it's on NBC.
    
    Mike

    Phoenix will host the 1995 All-Star game and will be the first
    franchise site to host the event twice.  They last did it in 1975.

    First franchise site?  What do you mean?  I can't believe the Knicks
    or Lakers haven't hosted it more than once...
    

   I agree with Riley. How about you Mike? Were the Suns really sleepwalking
   or was Westy outcoached by Lenny? Why oh Why do the top East teams dust
   the best of the west????

 
   Oh well atleast the C's did you a favor and dusted the Cryblazers....

   mike

 My error I should have made myself more clear. I agree that the Suns should
 have given up Dumas to get Rodman that is what I was asking your opinion
 about....

 mike

    The Suns are in Portland to take on the good guys tonight.  The Blazers
    will be without Clyde.  He was placed on IR today because of a pulled
    hamstring he suffered on Sunday against the Celtics.  He will miss at
    least 6 games.  
    
    Glen.

 But I thought the Suns' attitude is the future is now? I haven't seen
 a whole lot of Dumas but what I have seen was strickly offense. I find
 it hard to believe that he's very close to Rodman in defensive ability
 or boards. Given that they've got other scorers I would think Rodman
 would prove more valuable. Rodman's not that old that the return on
 investiment would be that short term...

 mike

    
    Dumas wil miis tonight's game.
    
    brews

    doesn't matter Mike, Rodman had his chance but refused to come here and
    experience a salary cut.  Dumas is in the top 3 on this team in scoring
    (2nd behind Charles), rebounding, and blocked shots.  Why else would
    the rest of the NBA want him so badly!  Jerry West tried to get him out
    of Phoenix last summer as well.
    
    Should be an interesting game in Portland tonight.  KJ, Miller, and
    Dumas won't even make the trip due to injuries.  Drexler is out for 2
    weeks that I know of, but I suspect there are more injuries for the
    Blazers.
    
    People are getting really excited though about Miller.  He's the
    thinnest now than he's ever been.  Oliver doesn't even look fat now, no
    gut hanging over the waistband of his shorts.  Team officials state
    that he still isn't at his mutually agreed upon goal though.  At this
    rate, he should be back in plenty of time to get back into playing
    shape for the playoffs.
    
    KJ should be back in a week.  Dumas hurt his back and is day-to-day.
    
    Mike

But will Miller ever be laterally quick? The first time the Suns and Sonics met
up Miller blocked Kemp the first 2 times they went head to head. McKey told
Kemp to go around miller because he can go up and down but he can't go side
to side and Kemp ate him alive the rest of the time they were playing head to 
head...

I imagine Mr Robinson, Hakeem and just about any good power forward could do
the same....


Metz

    >Dumas is in the top 3 on this team in scoring
    >(2nd behind Charles), rebounding, and blocked shots.  
    
    Easy to do when Mark West and Tom Chambers are your main "centers".
    

The NBA's triple-double leader, Sir Charles, had 36 points, 17 rebounds and 9
assists in his first game against his old team last night, powering the Suns
to a 125-115 victory over the 76ers.  Barkley's performance offset Manute Bol's
6 3-pointers for Philly.  Sir Charles scored 18 of his points in the 1st
quarter as the Suns raced to a franchise-high 43 points for a 1st period.
Phoenix led by as much as 25 during the game.

The Suns, who improved to an NBA-best 41-13, avoided their first 3-game losing
streak of the season and have taken 7 straight games from the 76ers at Phoenix. 

Bol, who was 6-for-12 from 3-point range, tied Barkley's club record for
3-pointers made and finished with 18 points. Hersey Hawkins scored 13 of his
team-high 24 points in the 4th quarter for the 76ers, who have dropped 5
straight road games and are 1-9 in their last 10 on the road.  Philadelphia
has lost 6 of its last 7 games overall and 12 of 14.

KJ was awesome in his return to the lineup, fueling the big first quarter with
his uptempo leadership and slicing to the basket.  The bad news is that forward
Richard Dumas left the game late in the 1st quarter with a grade 3 ankle
sprain.  Fortunately, X-rays were negative.

Philly closed the big gap late in the game with the 3pt attack against the subs.
Jeff Hornacek had a sub-par game with only 15 points and fouled out early in
the 4th quarter.  He just couldn't keep up with Thunder Dan ;-)

Many members of the media commented at how subdued the sentimental Charles was
after playing against his old team.  It was an emotional night for Hornacek and
Charles also said it will be when he goes to Philly.  Barkley commented that it
was the only time he can remembers playing hoops and not enjoying it.  He said,
"I play basketball for God, my family, and myself.  I hope I never have to play
feeling that way again."

Mike

    Richard Dumas will be out 3-4 weeks.

    Good thing the Suns have that soft schedule, eh?

    Is this the beginning of the end of the novel?
    "As the Sun(s) sink slowly in the West."
    
    MikeL
    

    The new mean & lean Oliver Miller may be activated this week.

Cedric "CC Rider" Ceballos scored a career-high 40 points last night to lead
the Suns past the Sacramento Kings, 128-108.  Ceballos, starting in place of
the injured King Richard, hit 14 of 15 shots from the field and 12 of 12 from
the free throw line. He also grabbed 12 rebounds and dished 2 assists (total of
54 DECpoints!).

Charles Barkley added 23 points for Phoenix, which won its 4th straight game.
Wayman Tisdale tied a season-high with 32 points and Walt Williams had 30 to
pace the Kings, who have lost 11 of their last 12 games and 17 of their last
19 overall.

The Suns improved to 4-0 against the Kings this season and have beaten
Sacramento 8 straight times overall. Phoenix has won 21 of the last 24 meetings.
Sacramento shot just 38% from the field, while the Suns connected on 58% of
their shots. The Suns led 97-79 after 3 quarters and opened up an
insurmountable 24-point lead in the 4th quarter.

    Suns toyed with the po' Warriors last night, 111-100.  Golden St. only
    dressed 9 guys for the game.  Oliver Miller was activated and saw some
    time.  Suns just had too many weapons for them.  The lead was 24 before
    the starters came out.
    
    Mike

    Oliver Miller has lost 41 pounds thus far.  The Suns gave him the
    gestapo treatment by entering him into a local hospital, only allowed
    him 1500 calories per day, and gave him daily workouts.  He was only
    allowed to leave the hospital for workouts and attending home games.
    He's been doing this since he went on IR back in January.
    
    Mike

    
    Nets 124 Suns 93 - game was in Phoenix.
    
    Can't wait to see what our resident expert on the Suns has to say.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    I wonder what it was
    
    Was a key player injured?
    
    Did Charles get ejected?
    
    Did the Nets get away with having 6 players on the floor for the entire
    4th quarter?
    
    Did the refs hand the game to the Nets?
    
    Did David Stern step in and tell the Suns coach all his starters were
    benched?

  The Suns were so exhausted trying to avoid being the Mavericks' win for 
  March that they just couldn't get up for the Nets.  Terry Davis must have
  hit Sir Chuck's elbow with his chin again...

  Kath

How about that Michael Carbajal!

Suns split their games this weekend.  They beat Dallas on Friday night, 116-98.
Terry Davis was given a stern talking to before the game to make sure you didn't
hit Charles in the elbow with his chin again.

As for Saturday night's Nets game, well if you must talk about it, these quotes
describe the fluke best.  At least the Bulls, Sonics, and Blazers all 
lost too, so no damage done.

"It's a little feather in our cap, but it's like that joke about the mirror over
the bed that says, 'Objects may appear larger than they actually are.'  It's not
that big.  They're the best team in the league.  We know that, and the rest of
the league knows that.  We just had an outstanding game tonight.  That's a freak
game, but we'll take it.  We're happy to have it." - Chuck Daly

"I've seen a lot of basketball games, high school, college, and pro, but that
was the best game I've seen any team play for 48 minutes.  If you'd asked us if
we'd beat them like that, no way.  We were just hoping to stay close and be in
it at the end." - Sam Bowie

"This will give us great confidence.  We have a chance to sweep the West Coast,
but nothing to take away from Phoenix.  They're still the best team in the
league.  They looked tired, and we took advantage of that.  But it's tough to
come back on a team that's hitting all the shots like we were." - Drazen
Petrovic

"I think Phoenix has had so much success, they forgot the basics.  They forgot
this is the NBA and on any given night, you can get beat." - Rumeal Robinson

"Obviously we're ashamed of the way we played.  I take responsibility because as
leader of this team my job is to make sure I come intense.  I didn't do that
tonight.  I've got to be ready from the get-go.  I was just terrible.  Tonight
was, to say the least, a frustrating night.  It's just embarassing when you get
humiliated like that...My job is to get us motivated and into the game.  And I
didn't do that.  So I'll take the blame for this one." - Sir Charles

On hearing a chorus of boos at home for the first time: "That doesn't affect me.
I'm only concerned about the 12 guys in this locker room." - Sir Charles

"The Nets were great.  They took the game from the first seconds and never let
us have even a sniff of being able to get back in it." - Paul Westphal

That's about it in a nutshell.  The Nets caught Phoenix on one of those seasonal
fluke games where the good guys just couldn't do anything right.  Nets led 41-22
after the first quarter and never looked back.  They shot 55.2% from the floor
for the game while Phoenix shot 42% (18 points below their average).  Best thing
to do about these games is file and forget.

Suns are off until Wednesday when the Blazers come to town.

Mike

Sorry Mike, but your not quite at the same level of Acc Crisp in responding
to these kind of games :-)

The Crazy Met

The fans were booing a 46-14 team?  Great fans you've got there...

      Too many hours in the sun;^)

    To make things worse for Mike, Charles admitted in Sunday's paper that
    the East plays better basketball than the West.
    
    brews

Brews is clearly someone who lacks compassion and shows no mercy :-)

The Crazy Met

It's also funny to note that the Suns seem to have these type of games against
Eastern division teams....

>Sorry Mike, but your not quite at the same level of Acc Crisp in responding
>to these kind of games :-)

    Thanks, TCM!  I really appreciate that vindication and am glad somebody
    acknowledges the truth.
    
>The fans were booing a 46-14 team?  Great fans you've got there...
    
    They deserved it the way they played.  The closest they ever got was
    13.  They were down by 20+ most of the game and the margin was 40 at
    its peak in the 4th with all the scrubs in.
    
>    To make things worse for Mike, Charles admitted in Sunday's paper that
>    the East plays better basketball than the West.
    
    ...and he based it on the number of rings won only.  Not nearly as
    scientific as we are in here ;-)
    
>It's also funny to note that the Suns seem to have these type of games against
>Eastern division teams....
    
    yeah Childs, all 1 of them.  Certainly enough to qualify plurality in
    biased views.
    
    Mike

>>Sorry Mike, but your not quite at the same level of Acc Crisp in responding
>>to these kind of games :-)

>    Thanks, TCM!  I really appreciate that vindication and am glad somebody
>    acknowledges the truth.

Some people really are desperate enough to find praise in anything.

Which teams has Phoenix lost to this season? Home and away breakdown if
you have it.

The Crazy Met

>Which teams has Phoenix lost to this season? Home and away breakdown if
>you have it.
    
    a simple task since they have the best record in both categories.
    
    Home:  Chicago, Cleveland, New Jersey
    Away:  Seattle (2), Portland (2), Clippers (2), Golden St., Houston, 
           San Antonio, New York, Cleveland
    
    They're 0-2 vs. Cleveland, 1-1 vs. New Jersey (won there), they're
    winless in Seattle, Portland, and L.A. Sports Arena.  The whole Western
    Conference is winless here.  They've won at least once in Houston and 
    San Antonio.  As for the revenge factor, they have these games remaining:
    
      New York - March 23
    at Chicago - March 30

Off the top of my head I know the Suns have lost to Da Bulls, the Cavs and
the Nets so that's 3 out 14 losses. good thing they only play the East twice.

A loss is a loss period wether it's by 1 or 40.....

mike

    well Mike, your quote implied they only get blown out by Eastern teams
    since that is what happened in their last game.  The Bulls, Cavs, and
    Knick games were all close.

    
    > Home:  Chicago, Cleveland, New Jersey
    
    Wow, three flukes... I guess Childs was right, three-for-three in home
    losses to the East is a plurality, majority, consensus, unanimity...
    
    glenn
    

How many games does Phoenix play against Western Conference teams, how
many against the Eastern Conference teams

yeah I suppose you could take it that way....

;^)

    They show up as losses, and I know injuries, etc. are part of the game,
    but they still make a difference.  The "Oh What might have been"'s walk
    hand-in-hand with injuries among all sports fans (even in here). 
    Having said that, what the record doesn't reflect is:
    
    Chicago - 8th game of the season.  KJ was out hurt and Dumas wasn't
              even on the team yet.  4 new starters on the team, getting
              used to each other's game still, playing the world champs.
    Cleveland - KJ out again, lost by ~5, Dumas left the game in the first
                half with his injury.  Loss in Cleveland was a result of
                the Barkley suspension.  Still only lost by 5.
    New Jersey - fluke (even they said so!), Dumas also out as was Kenny 
                Anderson.  Based on their record without Anderson, I'd say 
                they're better without him.
    in New York - only lost by 3.  Pretty good considering very few Eastern
               teams win there too.  They're home record is right up there
               with the Suns.
    
    It's even more amazing to me that they still have the best record in
    any possible category.  In my book, the East hasn't proven anything and 
    I'm not impressed at all.  I'll be impressed if/when they beat the team 
    at full strength.
    
    Mike

    They play 5 vs. the West and 2 vs. the East (but you knew that), so
    what's your point?
    
    And when you say "injuries are part of the game", it makes it even more
    amazing that they have the record they do.  

    It was a fluke they won by 30+.  I don't know if the loss itself was
    a fluke.  Robinson's been putting up better numbers than Anderson did
    when he was in there.  KJ couldn't stop Robinson and Marjele couldn't
    keep up with Drazen...
     

Actually Mike it isn't going anywhere.

Phoenix plays 34.1% of its games against the Eastern Conference.
35.7% of their losses have been against the East. Close enough
to even as far as I'm concerned.

The Crazy Met

    Not only do I not stoop to certain levels, but I also do not hide when
    my team loses.

    Change a few names around and the Deano/UNC Excuse-o-meter looks just
    like the Barkley/Suns Excuse-o-meter.

>Phoenix plays 34.1% of its games against the Eastern Conference.
>35.7% of their losses have been against the East. Close enough
>to even as far as I'm concerned.
    
    TCM, you'll have to re-calculate this.  I incorrectly told you that the
    Pacific plays the Midwest 5 times.  I checked the schedule and it's
    actually 4.  Pacific plays each other 5 times.  East & West play each
    other twice.  Here's the Suns record breakdown to date:
    
    New York       0-1           Seattle        2-2
    Chicago        0-1           Houston        2-1
    Cleveland      0-2           San Antonio    2-1
    New Jersey     1-1           Portland       2-2
    Boston         1-0           Utah           2-0
    Charlotte      2-0           LA Lakers      3-0
    Atlanta        2-0           LA Clippers    2-2
    Indiana        0-0           Golden St.     4-1
    Orlando        2-0           Denver         2-0
    Detroit        2-0           Sacramento     4-0
    Miami          2-0           Minnesota      3-0
    Milwaukee      1-0           Dallas         4-0
    Philadelphia   1-0
    Washington     2-0

    Mike nothing to recalculate since my calculation was based on Phoenix
    playing 28 games against Eastern Conference teams.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

After the Suns lost to Indiana at home they now have a 3 game lead for
the best record in the NBA. I wonder if they hear footsteps.

The Crazy Met

    To use a currently popular phrase:
    
    "That's why they call them upsets."

But 2 upsets of the same team in a short period of time may be the 
beginning of a pattern.

The Crazy Met

    Nobody has "upset" them more than once.

Mike you're taking over for MrT as the King of Obfuscators.

A short time back the Nets massacred the Suns in Phoenix. Last night
an even worse Indiana team beat the Suns in Phoenix. 

btw who do the Suns play tomorrow night, and where ??

The Crazy Met

    I don't think so TCM, but thanks for the compliment.  Your quote
    implied that a team has upset them more than once, not by different 
    teams.
    
    The hottest team in the NBA (the Knicks now that Houston lost) will be
    here tomorrow night.  Suns have an interesting schedule for the next 2
    weeks.  Even the papers here are ragging on them about the Eastern team
    myth.  If they want to prove it wrong, now is the time.
    
    MAR-23     New York            ASPN         
    MAR-24  at LA Lakers           KUTP
    MAR-26     Milwaukee           ASPN         
    MAR-28  at Philadelphia        NBC          
    MAR-30  at Chicago             KUTP TNT      
    APR-02  at Boston              KUTP TNT
    APR-04  at Indiana
    APR-06     LA Lakers

Tomorrow nights game is a great matchup. Important for both teams. If the Suns
win they solidify their lead for overall best record. If the Knicks win they
gain the confidence that they can win in Phoenix and the close the gap
for best overall record to 2 games.

I can't believe TNT isn;t showing this game! No real competition from any
other sports event. Arrggghh! I wonder if TNT can pick up a game at the
last minute with standard balckout rules applying. This would be the kind
of regular season matchup that would be worth picking up.

I hope WFAN comes in loud and clear tomorrow.

The Crazy Met

btw no compliment intended

    It's on local cable TV, try and find someone/someplace with a satellite
    dish.  I don't have cable so will be glued to the radio as well.

Last game the Knicks won by a few points in NY?? I think they cam back from
a 10 point deficit or so in the 4th? 

I'll have to settle for radio as well. It is fairly likely that Marv ALbert
will do the call on WFAN and he is always fun to listen to.

The Crazy Met

    Yeah, they won 106-103.  Ewing beat them down the stretch.

    Gonna be lots to talk about in here tomorrow!

    
    
    KJ = Cheap shot artist.....
    
    
    Chappy

    Have to agree with ya on that one, Chappy.  I'd like to see what
    happens to him the next time he tries to drive the lane against the
    Knicks.
    
    Them b-ball players sure as hell don't know how to fight though do
    they?  Man, if there were that many guys in a beef on the ice surface
    it would've lasted a good 20 minutes.
    
    					Steve

    Don't know what the topic of conversation was the time before down the
    court, but KJ looked like he started it from the highlights. 
    Especially when they show an interview after the game with Marjele and
    he basically says that KJ gets emotional at times and needs to control
    it better.
    
    Danny Ainge was also thrown out, BTW...

    Ok who won, who was tossed after the fight and who can we expect to
    get fines and miss some game(s) ?????  I saw the highlights on TV but
    they didnt even show the score or anything just the break out, they
    didnt even show how/who it started or who got tossed, just the action.
    Can someone eleborate, thanks....
    								MaB
    (just what the Bulls need, a couple key losses due to
     key suspensions :-)..)

    KJ and Ainge were tossed
    
    Anthony (in street clothes on the bench), Rivers, and 2 others were
    tossed from the Knicks.  I'd expect KJ, and Rivers to get fined as
    well as the others tossed and people who left the bench to get
    involved.
    
    Apparently (from the highlights I saw) KJ and Rivers had been in a
    friendly discussion prior to this.  At the end of the half Rivers
    drove down the court and up to the 3 point line and passed off to
    Starks.  As he pulled up to make the pass, KJ popped him up high
    with an elbow or forearm and kept going towards the locker room as
    the buzzer went off.  Rivers went down got up and chased after KJ
    and then all bedlam occurred.  People from the media were on the court
    watching the teams go to their locker rooms, some fans may have been
    involved.  Riley went after KJ at some point and had him in a headlock.
    Anthony was removed with help of security.

    Oh yeah, Phoneix blew them out in the 2nd half... won by more than
    10...
    

    Copied (I guess the wrong method) from the Boston Celtics notesfile.
    Received permission from the author.
    
    
    Note 9.799                      The Phoenix Suns                799 of 799
    TNPUBS::NAZZARO "UMass - 2-time A10 Champ!"      15 lines 24-MAR-1993 11:05
                         -< Knicks show true colors - again! >-
    
    Riding in this morning (late, thanks to the storm), I listened toWFAN
    to see how the New York people would feel.  Apparently, Rivers and KJ
    were given double technicals about a minute before the incident at
    the end of the half.  The consensus from New York was that both KJ and
    Doc were standing up for themselves and not backing down.  No one had
    anything good to say about Anthony, starting with the ugly shirt he was
    wearing!  Indefensible, inexcusable, ridiculous were three of the words
    used to describe his sucker punch of KJ and his later return and second
    ejection from the floor.  Also, Anthony Mason apparently nailed Dan
    Majerle with a straightarm earlier in the game and got a "T" for
    that.
    
    Jerry Colangelo of the Suns is calling for Anthony to be suspended
    for the rest of the year.  It just may happen.
    
     NAZZ
     

Where is Mike H? Maybe now that his Suns do not appear so angelic he
decided to stay away.

re: Bulls, yeah Chicago probably needs help to get the best record
this year; so far they have shown no indication that they will easily
do it on their own.

re: suspensions

The idea that Anthony might be suspended for the rest of the season is
ludicrous. It just won't happen. Probably for a few games, but I can't
imagine more than that.

The Crazy Met

    Chicago fans will probably give Phoenix a standing ovation when they
    visit next week.
    
I taped and reviewed the extensive highlights presented by the locals.  They
showed everything leading up to the brawl, the brawl itself, and the second half
rout.  I tried to be as accurate on the events of last night as possible.

Paul Westphal summed it up best when he said, "You media folks have been saying
Phoenix can't play Eastern ball.  Was that Eastern enough for you?"  The Suns
not only didn't back down from the NY Thugs style of play, they also gave them a
taste of their own medicine.  It was truly unfortunate too because it was quite
a game before the brawl started.  You knew something has going to happen though.
It was a very emotionally-charged, playoff-type atmosphere even before the game
started.  I can't remember Phoenix fans being louder or more vocal than they
were last night.

When it was all said and done, Sir Charles led the way with 31 points as the
Suns *POUNDED* the Knicks 121-92 (a little more than 10, Walt).  Thunder Dan
scored 22 points and Cedric Ceballos finished with 20 points and 12 rebounds.
Patrick Ewing led the Knicks with 24 points.  Twelve technical fouls were handed
out, 6 players (Starks, Rivers, Mason, Anthony, KJ, Ainge) and 1 assistant
coach were ejected.  After NY lost its starting guards and Phoenix its
starting point guard, the Knicks bench was no match for the depth of the Suns
bench.

The game went to halftime after the brawl with Phoenix leading 59-53.  The Suns
were on an 11-4 run before the brawl and topped that in the 3rd with a 22-8 run
that put the game away.  Phoenix led 92-70 after 3 quarters and NY never got
any closer in the 4th quarter.

The Suns were determined to get that Eastern monkey off their back from the
start.  They didn't back down from NY's intimidation tactics and that style of
play ended up backfiring on the Thugs.  Peter Vecsey, who finally had the
filberts to show up in the same locker room as Barkley, asked Danny Ainge what
happened.  Vecsey said, "I came here to see the best 2 teams in basketball and
this is real disappointing!"  Ainge replied, "The Knicks have an extra shove,
punch, and elbow waiting for you around every pick.  Their act and style is
crap.  You can't intimidate anyone in the NBA."  

The game started off real tight.  Both teams exchanged leads several times in
the first quarter and NY had a 30-28 edge after one.  In the first quarter,
Mason throws a cross-bodyblock into Majerle after a breakaway jam by Thunder
Dan.  The mild-mannered Scottie Robertson (Suns assistant coach) protests the
call and is ejected for the first time in his career.  This is where it started
going downhill and where the officiating crew, led by Ed T. Rush, lost control
of the game.  The referees were letting them play Thug ball and emotions were
already running high as tempers were starting to get short.

In the infamous 2nd quarter, the Thugs started off by building a 6 point lead
mostly on the inside play of Ewing.  Mark West went to the bench early with 2
quick fouls.  Oliver Miller came in and the Suns started to pick things up.
The refs were still letting them play Thug ball, but the game's pace benefited
the Suns, especially since NY isn't a scoring team.  Then comes the first
incident between Doc and KJ.  Doc loses the ball on a turnover and KJ was
dissin' him so the 2 stand toe-to-toe and jaw at each other a little.  One of
the refs tries to break it up and Starks actually grabbed the ref to hold him
back!  Nothing was done here again by the officials and what little control they
had left is just about gone.  Phoenix goes on an 11-4 run to build what ended up
as their halftime lead.  NY just couldn't slow down the Phoenix pace.  Just
before the brawl, KJ was hammered as he drove the lane with no call.  The refs
must have listened to Jack Madden's ludicrous quote on Sunday night, when he
said, " It serves KJ right for getting hurt.  He shouldn't drive the lanes
like that."  Nothing like taking away a guy's bread and butter.  Anyway, on
the NY possession, KJ fought around a pick and gave Doc a hard elbow in
retaliation.  This is when Doc went after KJ and pandemonium broke loose.

As Cotton Fitzsimmons said, "This is the worst and most prolonged incident I've
ever seen in my 21 years in the NBA!"  John Starks came up and held KJ while
Greg Anthony, who was in street clothes and not even in the game, came up and
took a blind-sided cheap shot at KJ.  He's got a nice welt over his eye now.
After this happened Riley grabbed both of them and tackled them to the floor,
ripping his pants in the process.  NY closed the locker rooms after the game and
rumor has it that it's because Riles doesn't wear underwear.  But that's neither
here nor there.  That was a no-class, punk move by Greg Anthony and he should be
suspended for the season.

The Moose was loose on his old teammates and made his only real contribution to
the team this season.  Jerrod was having words and shoving matches with Ewing
and Mason.  Mason kicked Mustaf like a girly-mon, but it kept Jerrod from
playing in the 2nd half.  Surprisingly, Sir Charles kept his cool and didn't
get involved.  He did restrain Doc Rivers though.  

As Starks, Mason, and Anthony left the court, they tried to get something going
again with Suns players and fans outside the locker rooms.  Security reminded
them of where there locker rooms were.  To give you an idea of how charged
everyone was last night, Colangelo said, "I feared for the fans coming onto
the floor!"  I'm not sure what Ainge did to get ejected and haven't heard
anything about yet either.  It's a good guess he was probably getting bit by
somebody on the Thugs.  Danny later added, "Greg Anthony should receive the
worst fine the NBA has ever given out."

And if that wasn't enough, Bo Kimble decks Frank Johnson to the floor in the 4th
quarter as FJ drives for a breakaway layup.  Another obvious flagrant foul that
the officials let go unnoticed.

One has to wonder if Riley has control over his team.  Especially with Greg
Anthony and John Starks, who have a history of problems.  He never condoned
this type of basketball in L.A.

Ed T. Rush said after the game, "Doc Rivers was definitely the aggressor in both
incidents, but we had no choice in throwing KJ out despite him being the
victim."

In typical NY fashion, Marv Albert confidently declared it was all KJ's fault.
He pointed to the elbow off the screen and the trash talking.  Funny how he
missed the other flagrant fouls.  Marv did have sense enough to recover and
chastise Greg Anthony and Anthony Mason.  He called Greg Anthony, "Bush league",
and said, "Mason is the one who started it all with the bodyblock on Majerle."

As for my opinion, I think it was NY's Thugball(tm) style coupled with the
officials not controlling the game.  It should be real interesting to see how
the NBA office handles this one.  The issue of poor officiating is once again
thrown into their laps.  Good officials don't let games get out of hand like
this and would've settled it right after the first incident by Mason.  This is
also what NY's style leads up to.  The NBA will have to address this and decide
the future direction of basketball.

Mike

Article: 33399
From: A10377@waccvm.corp.mot.com (Michael Duke)
Newsgroups: rec.sport.basketball.pro
Subject: Re: what's the deal with phoenix and eastern teams
Date: 23 Mar 93 17:32:47 GMT
Sender: news@schbbs.mot.com (Net News)
Organization: Motorola
 
  By the way, I ran into Charles Oakley last night at a Scottsdale
mall. The Knicks are in town to play the Suns. He stopped me to ask
about the location of a restaurant. We talked briefly about the game
and he said that they don't anticipate it being a route like the last
few games they've played (Cleveland and San Antonio specifically). He
beleives the Suns are a better defensive team than most people give
them credit for, especially with a healthy KJ at point. Oh yeah, when
I ran into Charles he was coming out of the Suns Team Shop. Nice guy.

	Can this be the same Pat Riley who called the 1984 Celtics Champions 
thugs?  Jeez, either he finally got a little lead in his pencil or he was 
whining back then.  Or maybe both.

	And if you think what went on last night was bad then you would've 
been way to squeemish to sit through an NBA game in the late 60's early 
70's.  Back then it was a mainly game and when the playoffs came 'round, the 
no layup rule was strictly enforced.  Course players then didn't resort to 
cat fights, they merely stepped up to the foul line made their free 
throws, then dished it out just as bad on the other end.  Heck, the way 
they call fouls today the players should come out wearing tutus.

				/Don

re: .233

MrT would have been proud of such objectivity :-)

Folks on ESPN though that KJ had a heck of a lot to do with starting
the brawl, but hey they're Eastern media types so what do they know.
I guess the tape also lies.

The Crazy Met

    "If enough people tell you you're soft and a team with a hard-nosed
     reputation comes in here and expects you to move aside or step aside
     or physically beat you and do exactly what they want to do on your court,
     this team is not going to allow that to happen.  That's what happened
     tonight." - Thunder Dan Majerle
    
    BTW - the only punch thrown/landed was by Greg Anthony.

Should the Knicks and Sund make it to the Finals they could make
the 1984 Celtics-Lakers final look like 2 kittens play fighting
with one another.

The Crazy Met

    TCM, it could be one of the best finals ever.
    
    Tommy, even New Yorkers on WFAN said the officials let it get out of
    control.  Get a clue.

>                 -< worth a Suns-Knicks finals just for this >-

Hopefully the Suns don't think they've won the NBA title after last
night's win, and they have enough 'nads to get to the finals.  They
probably feel pretty "ballsy" after just one game of this stuff.
I wanna see 'em do it to this large, tougher Knicks team over 7
games.

	Hey Craze, a *regular season* game between the 76ers/Celtics of the 
late 60's or Celtics/Knickerbockers or the early 70's contained a much 
higher testosterone level than any of today's playoff series.

				/Don

    Hmmm....
    
    Pistons lose a lot to the Celtics, get more physical and go on to
    win some championships. Parish gets a cheap shot in on Laimbeer because
    "He must have deserved it". Laimbeer is known for whining to the ref.
    Isiah is considered a thug and called names because of racist comments.  
    Isiah drives down the lane and gets split open because "He should know 
    not to come down the lane like that...." and noone feels any remorse 
    about it.
    
    Phoenix brings in no-back-down type player who got in trouble in
    Philly about speaking his mind and possibly racist statements.  They
    sign a free agent known for being a self-admitted ref whiner and being in 
    altercations with Sedale Threatt and Tree Rollins. Barkley doesn't like 
    how a ref decides a game and goes after the ref.  They try to deal for 
    Rodman.  KJ now feels he has to stand up for himself by giving a forearm 
    because he's being deprived of his right to come down the lane.
    
    Phoenix, who remember the last time played the Knicks didn't like the
    end of the game and went after the refs down the hallway now blame the
    Knicks and the refs for the situation and being afraid of not being
    able to control their own crowd.
    
    Maybe Phoenix is ready for a title.
    

Pat Riley has always been a whinning little creep, but that's neither here 
nor there.  He is a coaching maggot who will say whatever he can do to 
manipulate the media and fans to make himself (not his team) look good.

The real question is what was "Sir Charles" doing during the fight?  

re: .234

I thought you just had a hole in your shirt, Tommy.

=Bob=

    Walt, if what you say is true, you can certainly thank the Eastern
    teams and their style of ball that everyone in here lavishes undying
    praise over.
    
Getting back to real basketball (something NY knows nothing about)...

Notes & Quotes
--------------
- Suns outrebounded the Blazers last Wednesday 64-34.  If that isn't an awesome
  statistic, then none exists.
- Suns almost equaled that feat last Friday against Detroit when they
  outrebounded the Pistons 59-35.
- Richard Dumas should re-join the team for the upcoming Eastern trip.
- The Suns have made 305 treys, a club record and most in the NBA.  Their 13.6
  attempts per game isn't far off the NBA record of 13.98 by New York 4 years
  ago.  They're shooting 36.2%.  If the Suns' 4.9 treys made per game holds up
  thru the season, they will break the NBA record of 4.71 set by New York in
  1988-89.
- Ainge and Majerle have ranked 1-2 in the NBA in made treys all season. 

"It just happened.  Kevin's a little dude." - Sir Charles on Bill Laimbeer's
  takedown of KJ last Friday.
"Sure, and I suppose Pete Vecsey doesn't try to intentionally hurt you with his
  words." - KJ in response to Charles.
"Hell, Vecsey's been here a week, and he ain't been in here (the Suns' dressing
  room), yet.  He's been hidin' from me.  He's running scared." - Sir Charles

"I know it's a Midwestern city." - Charles on Indianapolis.

"Never realized which class was difficult and which one was easy.  As long as I
 was leading the SEC in rebounding, I was getting a passing grade." Charles when
 asked if he went to the Mr.T School of Geography.

"Damn, Danny, is your arm all right?  You need some ice on that elbow?  You
 fired that thing every time you touched it." - Charles on Ainge's 5-10
 performance from trey land vs. Detroit
"I had to.  When I'm open, it's our best option." - Ainge's response

"Ever since I've been here, I wouldn't say that we've had a lot of size, yet
 we've won a lot of playoff games.  It doesn't matter what you are against the
 East, it's what you are all-around.  And we've lost fewer than anybody else so
 far." - Mark West

    But I thought you said Western ball was superior Mike.  What's the real
    deal?  Are they stooping to the lowly, last 4 championship carrying
    Eastern Conference's level?
    

    I still think it is, but mainly because it's more in line with the way
    the game is meant to be played.  When the Knicks are allowed to go
    beyond the extremes of incidental contact, the NBA is just the WWF in
    hightops on hardwood.

    Fortunately, the Suns have proven they are the best in the NBA at the
    finesse game, but can play NY Thug ball too when they have to.  The
    Lakers did the same thing to survive in the early to mid '80s. 
    Anything that happened last night was in retaliation and self-defense. 
    It's the old neighborhood bully syndrome.  If you nip it in the bud and
    fight fire with fire, they eventually go running with their tail
    between their legs.  The Knicks were whipped like a stepchild once they
    saw they couldn't play Thugball anymore.

    Mike

    It's tough to beat a team who, Hubert Davis and Rolando Blackman
    at guard?  Or Davis and Kimble?   That shows superiority all right.

    ...and Tony Campbell too.  Meanwhile, the Suns countered with Majerle
    and Frank Johnson.  Knicks still had plenty of people to win.

> The Knicks were whipped like a stepchild once they saw they couldn't play Thugball 
> anymore.

Especially with Starks, Rivers, Mason (3 of their starters last night)
kicked out of the game. Heck Dallas would give the Knicks a tought time
with those 3 out and Anthony injured.

The Crazy Met

    Tony Campbell, Hubert Davis and Rolando Blackman and Bo Kimble are not
    my ideas of point guards.

    ...and Phoenix was already playing with their backup small forward in
    the starting lineup.  

re:.250

I think Blackman is still out as well.

The Crazy Met

    Bottomline: both teams were missing 2 of their best guards and a starting
    forward.

Knicks can go 9 deep. That is all a healthy team really  needs to
win games.  Take away 3 of those 9, have 2 injured, and well ...

Phoenix is a good team. They could have won  last nights game with 
everyone playing, but too make anything out of a 30 point win under the
circumstances is ludicrous. Key in the playoffs will be (if this is the
Finals - no guarantee that NYand Pho will make it) which team can win
on the road.

The Crazy Met

    Phoenix can go more than 9 deep but usually stick with 8, especially
    with Dumas out hurt.
    
    Aren't Phoenix and NY the best road teams right now too?

    It's OK for Phoenix to make excuses, but it's not OK for NY to make
    excuses.  Do I have that right?

    Bottom line is 
    
    Phoenix had 2 of their top 3 guards (not 2 starting guards) and a
    starting forward out for the second half
    
    Knicks had their top 4 guards (Starks, Anthony, Blackman, Rivers) and
    a top reserve forward out.  
    
    Phoenix won.  I guess it a fluke like when the Nets won at Phoenix. Or
    Indiana at Phoenix...
    

    Phoenix is known for its LA Kings fans and Raider fans... They
    get their games broadcast in the area.  Maybe that Al Davis mentality 
    is working east...

    Try it one more time.... Has any one ever seen MIKE H (Burned Suns
    Athletic Supporter) and ACCrook (unbiased college basketball fan) 
    in the same place and the same time??!?!?!?!?!?
    
    REK

    Mac, the only thing you and the others have right is the same double
    standard that you judge western teams with.  First they couldn't beat
    any eastern teams, since that is false, they now make up excuses for
    it.

    btw - for all you doubters out there.  The game will be replayed on
    ASPN (Arizona Sports...) tonight at midnight MST.  If you have access to 
    a dish, tape it and witness NY Thugball for yourself.

Article 8081 of clari.sports.basketball:
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Path: nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!looking!clarinews
From: clarinews@clarinet.com (UPI)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
Subject: Suns, Knicks pay big for brawl

	NEW YORK (UPI) -- Members of the Phoenix Suns and New York Knicks were
fined a total of $159,500 by the National Basketball Association
Wednesday as a result of their brawl Tuesday night.
	Knicks guard Greg Anthony suffered the heaviest hit as he was fined
$20,000 and suspended without pay for at least five games. Anthony was
in street clothes with a sprained ankle when he joined the fray and
punched the Suns' Kevin Johnson.
	The brawl erupted as the first half ended in the game at Phoenix. Six
players were ejected from the game.
	The fighting began when New York's Doc Rivers went after Johnson just
as the half ended and both benches emptied onto the court. Anthony
punched Johnson in the face as the Suns' guard was being restrained by
New York's Bo Kimble, who was attempting to restore peace.
	NBA Vice President Rod Thorn said Anthony's suspension will begin as
soon as he is medically cleared to resume play. At the end of the five-
game period, Anthony will be required to meet with appropriate league
personnel to determine whether he can return to active status.
	Johnson was fined $15,000 and suspended without pay for two games and
Rivers was fined $10,000 and also suspended without pay for two games.
Johnson was to begin serving his suspension Wednesday night.
	The NBA fined the Knicks organization $50,000 and the Suns
organization $25,000 for failing to control their players.
	In addition, Jerrod Mustaf of Phoenix was fined $10,000 and Danny
Ainge of Phoenix and John Starks and Anthony Mason of New York were
fined $7,500 for fighting.
	The league also assessed fines of $500 each on Charles Smith, Rolando
Blackman, Charles Oakley, Eric Anderson, Herb Williams, Hubert Davis and
Kimble of New York and Cedric Ceballos, Tom Chambers, Frank Johnson, Tim
Kempton, Negele Knight, Mark West and Richard Dumas of Phoenix for
leaving the bench during the altercation.
	Rivers, Anthony, Starks and Mason were ejected along with Johnson and
Ainge.
	Johnson and Suns President Jerry Colangelo were furious after the
game over Anthony's actions and both demanded that he be suspended for
the season. Colangelo said the fight was under control until Anthony
went after Johnson. Anthony eventually was wrestled to the floor by
Knicks Coach Pat Riley.
	The Knicks refused to speak to the news media after the game.
	Charles Barkley scored 31 points as the Suns won, 121-92, and ended
the Knicks' nine-game winning streak. There were 12 technical fouls
called in the game.

    Sounds like KJ was at fault and they got Anthony for the cheap shot
    after.

    It's obvious that you hear and see what you want.  As I told some
    people offline, I don't like Thugball.  However, I'm a firm believer in 
    defending yourself and maintaining your pride and dignity.  That's what 
    the Suns did last night, and did it very well, IMHO.  If all you see
    are the highlights, it's understandable that you would blame KJ.  If I
    was clobbered as much as he was last night prior to the outbreak, I
    would've done the same thing.
    
    I still say it's the NBA's fault for not nipping this in the bud long ago.
    This is what NY's style leads up to.  The NBA will have to address this
    and decide the future direction of basketball.  I'm afraid since New York
    is the biggest TV market in the league (with the possible exception of Los
    Angeles) and what's good for New York is good for the NBA, the NBA has been
    encouraging New York's Thugball because New York can't make it on talent
    alone.  They proved that to Chicago last year.  If they played the
    game the way normal teams play it, Chicago would've beaten them in 4 or
    5 games.
    
    Now that the inevitable result of Thugball is becoming more and more
    evident, the NBA is going to have to decide whether the extra New York
    TV bucks are worth it, or whether they maybe better start calling fouls.
    And if they don't do something fast, someone will get a lot more
    seriously hurt than they did last night.
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    If we turned back the clock eith or ten years, I would say you were a
    staunch fan of the LA Lakers.  This is the exact same whining
    @brokenrecord.com that Celtics fans heard from them.
    
    					Steve

    I agree with Mike on the Knicks style of play.  They belong in the WWF
    and not in the NBA; what that team gets away with is incredible.   I am
    tired of seeing Mason, Oakley, Starks and co. just hack away at
    opposing players with the unofficial "blessing" of the officials.
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

    	RE: Who's the best team...
    
    	To be settled in June like it always is.  And I don't consider
    either New York or Phoenix a lock for the finals.  Chicago and Seattle
    are strong possibilities and lots of teams who can't go all the
    way could knock off any of the above mentioned four teams early
    in the playoffs, especially in the east.  And for the folks who
    don't like the Knicks style of play, you would've recoiled in horror
    at the Chicago Bulls of the early 70's with Sloan and Van Lier.
    They make New York look like Alan Alda's team by comparison.
    
    				/Don

    As /Don points out, this is nothing compared to the old NBA.  Read
    that Kareem quote from Airplane again.  Next they'll make the NHL
    no-check and the NFL touch...  
    
    The refs should call fouls and even intentional fouls and throw people 
    out of it gets too bad.   As discussed earlier, the foul on Anderson 
    did get an intentional foul call and it was a freak occurance that his 
    wrist was broken.  They didn't give KJ an intentional foul on the karate 
    chop on Rivers. (And you're right Mike, only Anthony connected on a punch. 
    KJ just wacked him up side his throat instead...)  You're not going to
    see much different until they 1) call more ticky tack fouls (which to
    me is wrong or 2)don't give guys special treatment on fouls, fines
    etc... (eg. Jordan vs. Miller).
    

It's obvious that KJ and the Suns want to do something about their
"style" of basketball. The rap is that Phoenix in general and KJ in
particular is soft. I'm not sure how that started because I don't really
see it that way. But the fact remains that it comes up in a lot of
conversations by the players. Sir Chuck was on Roy Firestone's ESPN show
recently and he made mention of the issue about KJ and while he said he
didn't think it was fair he did acknowledge that he's heard it before.

So for some reason KJ decided to vent on Doc Rivers. At first the 
bumping and talking was basically neutral as to who was at fault but the
last shot by KJ was a_intentional attempt to inflict bodily damage on
Doc. KJ's true manliness was shown by his running away from the incident.
In any case, KJ started the melee.

It should also be mentioned that Greg Anthony should have been severly
punished for his coming of the bench. No excuse.

Mike H.'s replies reflects how defensive Phoenix is about their rap as a
soft team. The East versus West and what the Lakers and Celtics used to
do should be reserved for a separate rathole.

TTom

    The Suns became the first team to win 50 games this year.  They drilled
    the hapless Lakers in L.A. last night, 120-105.  And they did it with 2
    Phoenix starters out.
    
    I will say if you watch the films, Doc layed an elbow into KJ, just
    as nasty as what you saw KJ do, on the Suns possession just prior to
    the outbreak.  Doc is no angel.  Courtside reports said he repeatedly
    called KJ a "motherf**ker".  After Doc threw the elbow, KJ justifiably
    retaliated.
    
    When was the last time the Suns were ever involved in such a brawl?  
    NEVER!  When was the last time the Knicks were involved in such a brawl?  
    Last week, last month, last year's playoffs, etc,...
    
    Last week, Knicks go into Cleveland to play another team with a "soft"
    rep.  They agitate the Cavs to the point that they received 6 T's and
    the mild-mannered Nance and Coach Wilkens are ejected.  The Cavs have
    received a total of 8 T's ALL SEASON!  Why do these things follow the
    Knicks everywhere?  Because they're USDA, grade A, THUGS!
    
    BTW - It's ironic that the only players *NOT* fined were Barkley,
    Majerle, and Oliver Miller.
    
    put that in your pipe and smoke it,
    Mike

The Cavs were not "agitated" into getting T's. They got 4 T's 
late in the 4th when Dougherty and Nance? bitched while on the bench
and behind by 20 points in Cleveland. If agitated means being whupped, yeah
then you're right, otherwise your crossing the line between spin control
and misleading statemements.

The Crazy Met

    I have to side with the Suns on this one.  I find it almost impossible
    to say who "started" and incident like this.  Was it the first little
    shove that started it, the elbow while driving the lane, the
    in-your-face obscenity, or the pick that sends someone to the floor?
    It's a judgement call at best when deciding which incident overstepped
    the bounds.
    
    The Suns went into the game, no doubt, with the attitude that they
    weren't going to let the Knicks get away with any of their patented
    intimidation techniques.  I think that's great.  When I played a little
    organized basketball, nothing pissed me off worse than guys who'd dig
    their elbows into your ribs when the refs weren't looking to prove to
    themselves that they were tough SOBs.  It wasn't basketball, and had
    no place in the game, same as the Knicks' unsportmanslike thuggery has
    no place in the game.
    
    What was KJ supposed to do?  Put up with elbows and cheap shots all
    game long?  The Knicks remind me of the classic can-dish-it-out-but-
    can't-take-it types.  
    
    A large part of the BLAM goes to the refs, who should just start
    calling a foul a foul.  A gratuitous elbow is a foul, even if it
    doesn't affect the play.  If the marginally competent NBA refs would
    have the 'nads to call these things fouls, you'd have a bit more of
    a level playing field in the NBA, rather than favoring the thugs.
    
    Pete (Mr. Impartial and Unbiased)

    Didn't KJ get tossed for a fight with Magic?
    
    Yeah, retaliation, the Christian thing to do....

    Pete, you right.  It was multiple incidents that factored into the
    outburst.  You can't factor any of them out of the equation.
    
    Re: Turning the Cheek and the Christian thing to do
    
    Moderators shouldn't bring stuff like this up in here since it isn't
    the place.  Besides, you're assuming that KJ isn't allowed to
    experience emotions because of his beliefs.  He's as imperfect as
    anyone else.
    
    And nobody ran into the locker room for what I saw on tape.
    
    Starks alone has been in more incidents in the last year alone than KJ
    has in his career.  Anthony and Mason rank right up there with Starks
    as well.
    
    Mike

Don't start clouding the issue. No one is claiming that the Knicks
are not a very aggressive, physical team. That does not mean that
KJ is any less at fault if he indeed instigated the brouhaha.

The Crazy Met

    Why did Rivers have to run to the other side of the court to find KJ?
    Because he was going to the locker room for the half.

    Walt, Walt, Walt - I doubt that all-out sprint by Doc was just an
    attempt to get to the locker room quickly and he just happened to
    see KJ as he passed by.  Only time players run that fast to get off
    the court is to go to the bathroom!
    
    Who was to blam isn't the real issue.  What the real issue is revolves
    around the Knicks style of play, and what the Suns felt they had to do 
    to counteract it.  If more teams did that to the Knicks (not cheapshot
    elbows but stand up to them), the Knicks wouldn't get away with all the
    crap they do.  I'd like to see Cleveland take the same attitude instead
    of whining about it from the bench after the game is decided.
    
    The Knicks won't stop playing that kind of ball until they are forced
    to, either by other teams or the league.  It is obvious the league
    condones the Knicks style of play, so it is up to each team to not
    back down.  Not start fights or throw cheap elbows, but stand up to
    the pushing, grabbing, and shoving that the Knicks laughingly call
    defense.
    
    NAZZ

    He went after him, but KJ wasn't exactly standing over him with a "take
    that" stare...
    

    TCM, if you see the Phoenix possession just prior to the fight (NY was
    on offense when it started) you'll see where Doc instigated things.  He
    threw an elbow that made Greg Anthony proud.  KJ is a wimp for not going 
    after him the first time Doc called him a mf'er.  I certainly wouldn't 
    have waited for the 7th time.
    
>    Why did Rivers have to run to the other side of the court to find KJ?
>    Because he was going to the locker room for the half.
    
    Wrong.  KJ was guarding Starks and Rivers was setting a pick for him. 
    While KJ was "fighting thru the pick", Starks moved over to the top of
    the key (left side), and KJ ran over to get a hand in his face for the
    last-second attempt.  As KJ crossed halfcourt to go to the Phoenix
    locker room, Doc went after him.  The visitor's locker room is on the
    opposite end of the arena as the Suns' locker room.
    
    More stuff from the brawl:
    
    - Starks, Mason, and Anthony worked their way over to the Suns locker
      room during halftime to start things up again.  Real class acts.
    
    - The officials made another potentially dangerous move by letting all
      players come back to the floor to be ejected.  They should have done it
      while they were in the locker rooms.
    
    - A long-time season ticket holder in the front row was on local TV
      last night.  As Nazz will tell you, it's a completely different ball
      game at courtside since you see and hear everything.  After the half,
      this fan told Ref. Fine that it was their (officials) fault for
      losing control of the game and he did it without profanity.  Fine
      turned to a security guard and had him and his son ejected from the
      building.  Are these guys paranoid or what?  The same guy described
      all the clutching, grabbing, pushing, shoving, elbowing, profanity, 
      and punching verified by TV analysts at courtside.  Anthony Mason's 
      bodyblock on Majerle lifted Dan OFF THE FLOOR!  Did you see Thunder 
      chase him down?  No.  The Suns were just giving it back to them.  Kind 
      of ironic that a Knick snapped first and couldn't take it.  Just like
      I said: The Neighborhood Bully Syndrome.  Knicks don't have the
      talent to compete normally.
    
    - Peter Vecsey said last night that Riley hates Greg Anthony.  He and
      the other Knicks have no control over Anthony.  He tried desparately
      to get rid of him last summer but failed and regrets losing Mark
      Jackson.  Peter also went on to say that if the Knicks are involved
      in another fight, Riley will be suspended by the NBA.
    
    - Knicks have also added moving picks to their arsenal.  You try doing
      this on the playgrounds and it usually results in an instant fight.
      Especially in a large city!  NBA officials just swallow their
      whistles when the Knicks do it.
    
    - Saw a great quote the other day on Usenet describing Greg Anthony:
    
      "You can take a player out of UNLV, but you can't take the UNLV out
       of the player."

>    Why did Rivers have to run to the other side of the court to find KJ?
>    Because he was going to the locker room for the half.
    
<    Wrong.  KJ was guarding Starks and Rivers was setting a pick for him. 
<    While KJ was "fighting thru the pick", Starks moved over to the top of
<    the key (left side), and KJ ran over to get a hand in his face for the
<    last-second attempt.  As KJ crossed halfcourt to go to the Phoenix
<    locker room, Doc went after him.  The visitor's locker room is on the
<    opposite end of the arena as the Suns' locker room.
    
    
    Show me where I'm wrong
    
    
    4<- ---------------------------------------------------------------- 5->
                                       |
                       3               |
             1                         |
     ---------|                        |                 |-------
              |                        |           2a    |
     ---------|                        |                 |--------
                                       |              2
                                       |
         -----------------------------------------------------------------
    
    1) Approximate area where Rivers fouled KJ. (Hasn't been on the
    highlights here, but I'll believe you).
    
    2) Where KJ fouled Rivers, Rivers went to the ground
    2a) Where Starks took the shot from.  Not a direct path for KJ to
    go through Rivers to get to him, but KJ did have a message to deliver.
    
    3) Where Rivers caught KJ
    
    4) Suns Locker room
    
    5) Knicks Locker room
    
    Seems to me that KJ hit Rivers, went over to Starks and headed to the
    locker room since the half ended.  Rivers went out of his way to catch
    him, but I don't see how it's "wrong" to say KJ didn't hit him and then
    headed for the locker room...

Good point, Walt.

KJ running away definitely diminished what now appears to be a concerted
effort to send a Manly Message. 

From the USA Today:

Said guard Dan Majerle: "We just want to send a message to everyone - we
aren't soft."

"The brawl started when Johnson leveled Rivers with a forearm ...".

So tell me again, why KJ ran away?

and what about:
>    ... KJ is a wimp for not going 


from..285
>                      -< Riles can't control his players >-

So KJ musta been acting under Westphal's direction and control? I guess
all them Suns coming off the bench were part of the plan, as well?


from .290:

>                           -< take the blinders off >-

Et tu, Mikey.

TTom

>    Show me where I'm wrong
    
    4<- ---------------------------------------------------------------- 5->
                                       |
                       3               |
             1                       *3|          *2a 
     ---------|                        |                 |-------
*4         *1 |                        |           2a    |                *5
     ---------|                        |                 |--------
                                       |              2 *2
                                       |
         -----------------------------------------------------------------
    
>    1) Approximate area where Rivers fouled KJ. (Hasn't been on the
>    highlights here, but I'll believe you).
    
    In the lane.
    
>    2) Where KJ fouled Rivers, Rivers went to the ground
    
    Closer the the free throw line.
    
>    2a) Where Starks took the shot from.  Not a direct path for KJ to
>    go through Rivers to get to him, but KJ did have a message to deliver.
    
    Left side of key.  You can see where KJ does a hard bank right right
    after going by Rivers' pick.
    
>    3) Where Rivers caught KJ
    
    halfcourt, left of the logo in the center.  They worked their way down
    to the 3pt line on the right side (Knicks' side) with the Greg Anthony
    punk move and Riley falling on top of both while trying to separate
    them.
    
>    4) Suns Locker room
>    5) Knicks Locker room
    
    tunnels leading to the rooms are directly off the goal supports at the
    end of the lane.
    
>    Seems to me that KJ hit Rivers, went over to Starks and headed to the
>    locker room since the half ended.  Rivers went out of his way to catch
>    him, but I don't see how it's "wrong" to say KJ didn't hit him and then
>    headed for the locker room...
    
    No, but it's wrong to say KJ hit him and ran to the locker room like it
    was some sort of cheap-shot-chicken-sh*t move.  This is what I thought 
    you were getting at.  The CSCS move (tm) is more like blindsiding 
    someone ala Greg Anthony.
    
    Mike

>>                      -< Riles can't control his players >-
>
>So KJ musta been acting under Westphal's direction and control? I guess
>all them Suns coming off the bench were part of the plan, as well?
    
    One incident hardly qualifies.  As every man knows, a certain limit is
    reached where you have no choice but to defend your honor, pride, and
    self-respect.  The Knicks forced the Suns to defend themselves and
    fight fire with fire.  Starks, Mason, and Anthony have been nothing but 
    trouble for Riley.

I don't think anyone disputes the fact that Greg Anthony delivered a
CSCS. I don't and I think that the only reason that he didn't get any
more of a punishment was because he didn't really hurt KJ.

When Kermit Washington punched Rudy Tomjanovich, he was suspended 26
games. His punch was more damaging and apparently that musta mattered. In
terms of what Anthony did, at least Washington was in uniform and on the
court when he did what he did.

Now if'n you want mainly, the Suns outta study the tapes of the night
that Stuart Gray lost it and took on the entire Laker team. You can fault
Gray for not landing any blows but not because of any lack of effort.

TTom

    I don't think anyone has defended what Anthony did, have they?
    

    
    re: .285, .281
    
    'ya know Mike on nearly all the issues of the day we probably disagree.
    But I gotta agree with you tha .281 was inappropriate; smacks of a
    double standard. Don't you get the feeling that if you, me, or another
    noter who shall remain nameless (Hi Rich :-) had posted that note it
    would have been hidden faster than MtM can type.
    
    re: Anthony
    
    Not defending Anthony at all; he had no business doing what he did.
    That still does not absolve KJ.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>    But I gotta agree with you tha .281 was inappropriate; smacks of a
>    double standard. Don't you get the feeling that if you, me, or another
>    noter who shall remain nameless (Hi Rich :-) had posted that note it
>    would have been hidden faster than MtM can type.
    
    TCM, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  It not only was inappropriate
    and irrelevant, but a slam against KJ and myself.  If people understood
    the context of where that saying came from, they wouldn't expect people
    of any religion to be passive, helpless, bleating sheep.

    
    
    
    JMHO
    
    JaKe
    

    Basketball is a physical game.  'Nuf said.
    
    A more relevant question.  What does the NBA do with the money that it
    collects in fines?  My 8 year old asked me this question and I really
    didn't know the answer.
    
    					Steve

    I think the $$$ goes to charity.
    

    The fines are donated to national charities.  The ones mentioned were
    the American Heart Assoc. and the national child abuse program
    sponsored by the league.
    
    BTW - Suns only have to win 10 of their last 17 games to become the
    first Suns team in history to win 60 games.
    
>     It seems to me that the jist of the argument here is whether KJ's 
>     act of violence was an appropriate response to the treatment he felt 
>     he was receiving from the Knicks and my opinion is no way. 
    
    How much of the game did you see, Tommy?  Or did you just watch a few
    highlights on ESPN?
    
    >Mike says he was called mf'er numerous times. Well wakeup, Johnboy. What 
    >do you think those guys are calling each other when they're jawing at each 
>     other? "Sissypants"? 
    
    It's well known the officials let them use profanity.  I thought there
    were certain magic words, or does that only apply to officials? 
    Regardless, nobody gets away with calling me that and I don't expect
    others to lie down and take it either.
    
    >And if he felt he was being roughed up, then he had other options. He 
    >could have played rough himself or he could have beaten the Knicks with 
    >technique. He chose to do neither. He threw a vicious elbow in what was 
    >a blatantly dirty play. He wasn't fighting fire with fire. He was 
    >fighting fire with gasoline.

    Do you really think it was that vicious?  I don't.  In fact, I've seen
    worse on numerous occaisions, including in the same game by other
    players on both sides.  Hundreds of eye-witnesses at courtside must be 
    lying about Rivers and Starks kicking and elbowing KJ in the head. 
    Sounds like fighting fire with fire to me.  I guess you would rather
    trust a few film clips on ESPN.
    
    More from Pete Vecsey:
    
    - I'm told in his column today that he blames it all on KJ.  Vescey also 
      said on radio here (Wednesday night) that the previous incidents in the 
      game had nothing to do with the brawl and that Doc and KJ instigated it 
      all.  Then he said this, "Somebody should've been tossed after Mason 
      attacked Majerle to show the referees had control."  Now which is it 
      Pete?  
    
    - "Scottie Robertson's ejection was absurd."
    
    - Another gem:  "When all else fails, Riley always blames the media.  It's 
      his escape clause.  He enjoys painting a 'us against the world' picture 
      with the Knicks."  That explains Riley saying the media is to blame for 
      questioning the Suns' "manhood."  Interestingly enough, the NY Times 
      blasted the Knicks and their style yesterday saying they have a 
      distorted view of "manhood."

    From what I've seen of the incident, KJ's ebbo was mild to other
    incidents I've seen. Much ado about nada. As da Slash said, this
    crap pales to the battles that wewnt on decades earlier. Cripes,
    break out the skirts if ya think this was bad. 
    Give me Cowens-Lanier battles in the paint any day.
    
    MikeL
    

    I believe that some people feel that the Knicks game style is 
    representative of NYC's as a tough and dangerous place.  This may
    account for them getting away with things that other teams do not.
    
    Comments anyone ?
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.
    
    

    	Hey MikeL, I saw Paul Silas actually punch Dave DeBusschre in
    the face once.  Old Dave carried the welt around for the rest of
    the game.  Another time I saw Nate Thurmond almost decapitate Dave
    Cowens.  Cowens was glassy eyed for the whole third quarter.  Ah,
    the memories...
    
    				/Don

>    	Hey MikeL, I saw Paul Silas actually punch Dave DeBusschre in
>    the face once.  Old Dave carried the welt around for the rest of
>    the game.  Another time I saw Nate Thurmond almost decapitate Dave
>    Cowens.  Cowens was glassy eyed for the whole third quarter.  Ah,
>    the memories...
    
When REAL men played basketball......8^)

Cowens is one of my all time favorites.  It is perfectly clear to everyone
except Johnny Most that he would not have lasted a season in the NBA if
he didn't play the physical game, pushing to the limits of what he could 
get away with.  Of course I don't remember him getting into more than one or 
two fights his entire career.

=Bob=

>    I believe that some people feel that the Knicks game style is 
>    representative of NYC's as a tough and dangerous place.  This may
>    account for them getting away with things that other teams do not.
>    
>    Comments anyone ?
    
    It's quite possible, especially when the league office is in NYC as
    well.  The Knicks' slogan "Tough Town, Tough Team" actually encourages
    and promotes their "style" of play.

    I think it's "We want to big markets or regions to succeed" possibly, but 
    I don't know about the   NY cause it's a tough town idea.  Look at the
    teams doing well and where they are
    
    
    Seattle                                           Bos
                                  Chicago      NY/NJ
                                          Clev
    
          Phoenix      San Antonio
                                           Orlando (hype wise)
                                                         

>       MF is one of those multi-use words that ain't necessarily always 
>       the ultimate insult but you wouldn't know that because you don't
>       hang with people who use it. 
    
    Well you assume too much.  I spend a lot of time playing hoops at the
    court in my neighborhood.  Various races and personalities are well 
    represented there.  It only took a couple "incidents" for people to
    realize nobody calls me certain adjectives.  Trash-talkin', dissin', or
    whatever you want to call it is one thing.  I even do that myself, but
    I draw the line at a certain point.
    
>    >> Hundreds of eye-witnesses at courtside must be lying about Rivers 
>    >> and Starks kicking and elbowing KJ in the head. 
>
>       Was this before or after KJ's blatant vicious attack on an unsuspecting
>       victim?
    
    It was before, all 3 times.  One point early in the 2nd, Starks set a
    pick for Rivers and elbowed KJ in the head.  I stand by my claim that
    KJ was justified in retaliating.

    	Yeah =Bob= I always liked the big redhaid too.  I remember after
    the 1974 championship Cowens was found sleeping it off in the Public
    Gardens.  Remember when he used to drive around Boston in his cab?
    
    				/Don

>      Mike, you live in Phoenix. Ain't no basketball players in Phoenix.
    
    yeah, that's a good one.  If anything, there ain't no basketball
    players in Massachusetts, especially this time of year.  

    Gee Mike, we play basketball year round too... We play it in gym...
    
    I have been quiet about this mess and have one comment. The Suns went
    looking for trouble and they found it...BIG TIME... If I was Rivers I
    would have taken KJ's head off and handed it to him. The refs didn't
    see too much before KJ tried to de-cap Rivers. And then run away...
    Young got off a little easier than I would have liked...
    
    ANd I would take Starks and Rivers of KJ and Ainge in a moment.
    At least Starksand Rivers can play a full season unlike KJ...
    Ainge? Ain't no D in his name.....
    
    REK

    Was KJ in LA on Friday night to start the fight there between the
    Knicks and Lakers?
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    A tussle between Ewing and Divac hardly qualifies as a fight.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Yeah the Knicks have so many "tussles" that they stopped counting them. 
    Rivers and Greg Anthony have given formal apologies, 'nuff said.
    Peter Vecsey showed at the half yesterday that Nolan Fine was in
    position to call KJ's forearm to Doc's chest and didn't.  Just like the
    officials did that whole game.
    
    Suns didn't play too well yesterday, but it was enough to win in Sir
    Charles' homecoming.

>    A tussle between Ewing and Divac hardly qualifies as a fight.
    
    BTW - Ewing "tussled" with AC Green before Divac stepped in to help.

    "I'm sitting here criticizing them, but I look at Mason, Oakley, Starks
    and I'd take one of those guys on my team.  I think that style is
    healthy.  Very few guys have the kind of intensity it takes to play
    that way."
    
    -Danny Ainge
    

    Suns did something useful tonight they beat Chicago - the two teams
    split the season series each winning in the other teams home court.
    
    Knick beat Sacramento and now lead the Bulls by 1 in the loss column,
    tied overall for best record in the East.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Are the Suns the UNC of the NBA (odds on favorites to win, not winning it 
all = choking)?

Jus' askin'

=bob=

    In keeping with last week's theme, Charles had world champ (and local
    resident) Michael Carbajal on his weekly show.  Charles is a self-admitted 
    avid boxing fan, if you haven't guessed by now.
    
    A couple humorous quotes stick out from that show:
    
    "If you're going to dish it out, you better be able to take it." -
     Sir Charles on the Knicks
    
    "We're going to have Michael give KJ some boxing lessons because he
     doesn't know how to fight."

    The only message the Suns sent was to themselves which is important\
    in itself. Game means squat for any playoff matchups.
    But I was quite impressed with Phoenix. How long is Chambers gonna be
    out?
    And I watched KJ in the fourth quarter. He's dang good, but I wanna see
    how he reacts to pressure "d" in the fourth quarter of a champeenship
    series. He looks as if he could get rattled.
    
    MikeL
    

    	Anybody else hear the strains of Helen Reddy's "You And Me Against
    The World"?
    
    				/Don

How can a player that played 1 minute contribute to turning a 14 pt lead into 
a 5 pt lead?

There must have been some serious movement during that minute...


Metz

    Didn't the Bulls have a bunch of guys out due to injury?  Cartwright?
    Walker?   Is this a true test of the Western Conference's talent?  I
    know Chambers was out, but just wondering...

>    But I was quite impressed with Phoenix. How long is Chambers gonna be
>    out?
    
    Initial reports were 1 month, but yesterday they said progress has been
    good and he may be back in 2 weeks.
    
>    series. He looks as if he could get rattled.
    
    I don't know about that, might just have been tired.  He played 44
    minutes and doesn't usually play over 35.
    
>    	Anybody else hear the strains of Helen Reddy's "You And Me Against
>    The World"?
    
    Quite an imagination you have there, Slasher.
    
>How can a player that played 1 minute contribute to turning a 14 pt lead into 
>a 5 pt lead?
    
    Actually he played 2 minutes, but the whole Suns bench that was in that
    stretch didn't execute, turned the ball over, and didn't get back on D
    very well.  Dumas was guarding Pippen and Scottie did all the damage.
    Dumas isn't 100% and they should rest him until they return home from
    this trip.

>    Didn't the Bulls have a bunch of guys out due to injury?  Cartwright?
>    Walker?   
    
    Cartwright was the only one that didn't play.  Walker was on the bench
    but was never put in.
    
    >Is this a true test of the Western Conference's talent?  
    
    No, with Chambers and Dumas at 100%, the victory margin would've been
    larger ;-)
    
    Mike

    According to the paper:
    
    Chicago: Placed guard Darrell Walker on the injured list.  Activated
    Trent Tucker from the injured list.
    
    Tucker played, I assumed Walker was on out...
    

    
    suns were also without Mustaf.  Although he hasn't been playing
    regularly, With Chambers and Dumas out, they could have used him.
    
    brews

    Thanks Brews!  
    
    Not that it matters, but when did Walker go on IR, yesterday?  I didn't
    hear about it and nothing was reported on it in the pre-game show or in
    the newspapers.
    
    I think the Chambers and Dumas duo more than makes up for the absence
    of Cartwright and Walker.

    Yesterday, Tucker was out before that...
    

    ...for home-court advantage throughout the playoffs.

with the calls they got the other night in the garden they don't need home
court advantage, they take it with them....

mike

    
    re: .343
    
    Amazing to hear such things now that the shoe is on the other foot.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Yeah TCM, I almost fell off my chair from laughing so hard.

    WOW!  Thunder Dan drills 2 consecutive treys, including one at the 
    buzzer, as the Suns edge the Lakers, 115-114!  First time in Phoenix's 
    history that they have *SWEPT* the season series from the Lakers, 5-0!  
    No matter what the current state of L.A. is, this feels great after the 
    years of frustration they served up to Phoenix.  Where's Dan Schneider
    when you need him?!
    
    The Lakers are currently in position to face Phoenix in Round 1.  Suns
    have an average victory margin of 17 points vs. the Lakers this year.
    
    KJ led all scorers with a season-high of 32, Charles had 23 with 11 
    boards.  Elden Campbell led L.A. with 21.  Suns improve to 56-15.
    
    Knicks lost tonight too, Bulls fail to capitalize on that.  

    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Just consider the source.  I guess Cleveland, New Jersey, and Miami must 
    be in the Western Conference.  Did you go to the MrT School of
    Geography?
    
>Funny, Boston and Detroit never seem to have a problem with New York.
    
    Other than the fact that they can't beat them.  
    
    NBC blew it yesterday by showing the Seattle-Laker game instead of the
    NBA's win leader going for their first division title in 12 years.
    KJ returned to the lineup yesterday to scorch John Stockton for 29 
    points and 9 assists as Phoenix dumped the Jazz 112-99.  It was a close
    game until the 4th quarter when the Suns ran off 18 unanswered points.
    The victory clinched the Pacific Division title for the Suns and homecourt 
    advantage throughout the Western Conference playoffs.  The magic number
    is 2 for homecourt advantage throughout the playoffs.  It was the first 
    division title since 1981 for the Suns, who improved to 33-4 at home, 
    tying the NY Thugs for best home record in the league.
    
    Utah led 90-86 with 6:35 remaining before Phoenix stormed back to take a 
    104-90 advantage with 1:58 left.  Long Range Ainge scored 10 of his 23
    points in the 4th quarter, including 2 treys during Phoenix's decisive 
    run.  Sir Charles scored 6 of his 21 points during the run.  The Suns 
    shot 67% (12 of 18) from the field in the 4th quarter, while Utah 
    connected on just 28% of its shots (5 of 18).  Karl Malone scored 22 
    points to lead the reeling Jazz and John Stockton added 16.  Utah has 
    lost 3 in a row.
    
    Suns travel to L.A. to play the Clippers tonight.  KJ, Sir Charles, and
    Ceballos won't make the trip.  KJ has joined Sir Charles in the group
    that no longer practices too.  Sir Charles hasn't participated in team
    drills since training camp.  This should keep them very fresh for the
    second season.
    
    Mike

    
    Hey, Charles Barkley hisself said the Knicks arent' 'dirty' or 
    cheap etc.  He likes the way they play, and says they play smart.
    
    Just a case of wimply fans crying and whining about physical play. 
    Hoops is a physical game, dudes.  
    
    As Charles said, the fight was overrated.  The two sour points to the
    fight were the little wimp, KJ, cheapshotting Doc with an elbow, and
    then running away like a mama's boy, and Anthoney fighting in street
    clotes....
    
    JD

>    fight were the little wimp, KJ, cheapshotting Doc with an elbow, and
>    then running away like a mama's boy, 

>      insightful commentary on what came about as a result of a non-physical
>      and non-championship winning team (something all of the teams you
>      mentioned have in common) overreacting to some good, hardnosed but 
>      clean basketball by the Knicks. 
    
    While you're definitely not alone on your opinion of the Knicks,
    holders of the opposing view are more numerous.  Fans and the media 
    across the land have chastised Thugball.  Even in NYC, writers in the
    Times and Post have blasted the Thugs.

    Sir Charles had yet another triple-double against Denver on Friday
    night.

    
    Mike -
    
    You get a clue.   Even the Candadian announcers were all over him for
    not being a man - KJ is a wimp.   He ran like a skeert school girl...
    
    Maybe hoops should just make the players wear dresses, and not allow
    any contact.  Make all the folks out west, and those who never played
    hoops see the game they want to see.   Wimply, girly-mon hoops.
    
    At least guys like Ainge and Barkley, who played in the Manly East,
    have no problem with da Knicks style of ball.  Only the little wimpls
    like KJ....
    
    JD

    JD, we've beaten this horse pretty good already.  Where were you?
    
>    You get a clue.   Even the Candadian announcers were all over him for
>    not being a man - KJ is a wimp.   He ran like a skeert school girl...
    
    That's fine if you value opinions of people with no teeth and randomly 
    insert phonic vowels.  Anyone with a clue, minimum of corrected 20/20
    vision, and a view of the whole sequence on tape, knows KJ was running
    to cover Starks' last second FG attempt.
    
>    Maybe hoops should just make the players wear dresses, and not allow
>    any contact.  Make all the folks out west, and those who never played
>    hoops see the game they want to see.   Wimply, girly-mon hoops.
    
    Amazing how you can deduce all that from 1 incident.  Must take severe
    glaucoma to do that.
    
>    At least guys like Ainge and Barkley, who played in the Manly East,
>    have no problem with da Knicks style of ball.  Only the little wimpls
>    like KJ....
    
    Yeah, Ainge said the Knicks style of ball was crap and you can't
    intimidate anyone in the NBA.  Sir Charles said you better be able to
    take what you dish out.  I guess glaucoma says they have no problem
    with it.

    
    Oh Mikey -
    
    Getting all huffy cuz someone is maybe criticizing your WardleVane
    favorite club?  (I remember when you were a Celts fan first...)
    
    Can't admit that yer Heee-rows every do anything wrong, can ya Mikey.
    
    Now I know Anthony was wrong and cheap - being in Civvies and all - and
    I know Starks cheaped Kenny ANderson.   And I also now that that little
    chicken KJ cheaped Doc.   Boy, if Isiah had done that, you'd be calling
    few blood.
    
    Po' Mikey.  Insults the inhabitants of a whole nation in his reply to
    my note, and then throws out personal insults.  Things must be getting
    to ya Mikey - a Drood move into the neighborhood or sumtang?
    
    [isfh]
    
    JD
    
    
    PS:  Hmm, perhaps you are trying to be the "Knorr of the West" with
    da Suns = da Tarheels, Westy = Deanie, etc....
    
    

    Oh yeah, I have 20-10 vision Mikey.  Don't get much better than that.
    
    JD

>    Getting all huffy cuz someone is maybe criticizing your WardleVane
>    favorite club?  (I remember when you were a Celts fan first...)
    
    Not really, I'm a defender of the truth.  And who I root for is
    irrelevant, assuming that it has changed.
    
    >    Can't admit that yer Heee-rows every do anything wrong, can ya Mikey.
    
    Sure I can, but I don't have any heros.
    
>    Now I know Anthony was wrong and cheap - being in Civvies and all - and
>    I know Starks cheaped Kenny ANderson.   And I also now that that little
>    chicken KJ cheaped Doc.   Boy, if Isiah had done that, you'd be calling
>    few blood.
    
    Yes KJ's forearm to Doc's chest was a cheapshot.  However, when it is
    placed in context, it was a justifiable move to retaliate against what
    the Knicks were dishing out.  Po' Doc couldn't take what he was dishing
    out.
    
>    Po' Mikey.  Insults the inhabitants of a whole nation in his reply to
>    my note, and then throws out personal insults.  Things must be getting
>    to ya Mikey - a Drood move into the neighborhood or sumtang?
    
    No JD, just tired of beating a dead horse with people who only see it
    from the side facing up.  You're obviously a Knick fan foremost so
    you're not interested in objectivity.  The fact that there are 2 sides
    to every story really applies here.
    
>    [isfh]
    
    Care to elaborate?
    
>    PS:  Hmm, perhaps you are trying to be the "Knorr of the West" with
>    da Suns = da Tarheels, Westy = Deanie, etc....
    
    That's better than being a hypocrite like Riley who blasts Thugball in
    L.A., only to be dealt a NY team that lacks the talent to win any other
    way.  Now he encourages it and says they want to be the most disliked 
    team in the NBA and preaches "Tough Town. Tough Team."  
    
>    Oh yeah, I have 20-10 vision Mikey.  Don't get much better than that.
    
    Then your VCR stutters.  I apologize upfront if this offends you and/or
    all the VCR owners of the nation.

    
    Oh Mikey -
    
    Defender of da truth.
    
    First - oh person who hails from Mass and lives in Arizona - tell me
    what is a NY state of mind.
    
    Objective - right Mikey.  You are objective about the Suns?  About
    yer beliefs?
    
    Objective about da Lakers?   C'mon Mike - you ain't zooming anyone.
    
    Objective about yer Guitar Heeroes when comparing them to others?
    
    C'mon - if you defend the truth, perhaps you should step outta da
    glass node you live in and stop throwing them electronic rocks...
    
    Objective - Mike Heiser - yeah, and and the Waco Dude is Jesus Christ.
    
    JD

    >- yeah, and and the Waco Dude is Jesus Christ.
    

Hey, on Imus the other morning they were saying that anyone who can
keep the FBI at bay for over 40 days, AND listen to Nancy Sinatra records
while he's doing it, probably is Jesus Christ......


'Saw

>    Hasn't the commish stepped in in the past to prevent this sort of
>    thing?
    
    Yes, so they placed Charles on IR and activated Chambers.  This
    guarantees Charles a well-deserved 5 games of rest.
    
    Suns still almost beat the Clippers with the 8 players they had left. 
    They were in it until the end (down by 3 with 2:00 left) and only lost 
    by 7 on the road.  Game was tied at the half.

    Objective - right JD.  You are objective about the Knicks?  About
    yer beliefs?
    
    Objective about da Suns?   C'mon JD - you ain't zooming anyone.
    
    Objective about yer Music Heeroes when comparing them to others?
    
    C'mon - if you defend the truth, perhaps you should step outta da
    glass node you live in and stop throwing them electronic rocks...
    
    Objective - John Devlin - yeah, and and the Waco Dude is Jesus Christ.

    
    
    
    JaKe
    

      I don't hate them,  as a matter 'o fact,  I hope they take the west.
    
      I've kinda watched them since I lived in Phoenix 10 years ago,  but
    the drivel does get old.  If they win it all,  then the drivel is
    backed up,  but if they don't,  well it may be quite in here.
    
    
      Of course there was no note in here about how they barely got by the
    Nuggets the other night.  I didn't think Ainge had it in him.   I
    woulda laughed hard if he missed that shot with 2.5 seconds left.
    
      I woulda liked to seen the collision of Charley and Karl....
    
    
      Tim

    Mr. Rollins, I think you take everything you read too seriously.  
    
>      Of course there was no note in here about how they barely got by the
>    Nuggets the other night.  I didn't think Ainge had it in him.   I
>    woulda laughed hard if he missed that shot with 2.5 seconds left.
    
    Tim, I post game reports on a consistent basis in the CELTICS
    conference.  I don't always take the time to cross-post them here.  The
    Denver report, as short as it is, is in there.
    
    Mike

    CLassic Tom classic!!!
    
    REK

    You're a riot Tommy.  Of course, you're first in line for the World
    Champion Suns t-shirts too.
    
    MoS

     >>   if something goes really wrong and your boys should happen to lose,
     >>   you'll have to pack up and leave town because I'll be all over
     >>   you like a cheap suit in a rain storm.
    
       You and a lot of other Sprotsters  :-)
    
    

    How about fans of the team that beat the Suns get first crack and then
    everyone else can help chip in???
    
    The Crazy Met
    

>    How about fans of the team that beat the Suns get first crack and then
>    everyone else can help chip in???
    
     How many SPurs' fans are there in here, anyway ?    

    Is it true that Phoenix fans voted Charles Barkley and Jeff Hornacek to
    their all-time Nuns team over guys like Walter Davis, the Van Arsdales,
    Gar Heard and KJ?  Barkley?  All-time Nun?

>                   -< never heard of a Nuns basketball team >-


CYO League ;^)
    

    Never heard of a Thugs team either... see the tm topic...
    
    Maybe that's part of the reason Barkley was on there ahead of Davis.
    Most of the bandwagon jumpers (not Mike) don't know about the team
    before this year....  I know I'd be annoyed if all-Piston team had
    Laimbeer on it ahead of Bob Lanier...

    Walt, those must be the same fans that vote for the All-Star teams.
    
    This year's Suns team became the first ever to win 60 games and the
    first team to hit that plateau in the NBA this season.  Thunder Dan
    scored 25 points and Cedric Ceballos had 23 points and 13 rebounds 
    to lead Phoenix to a 98-84 victory over the Timberwolves.  The Suns
    have won 12 of their last 13 games and improved to 34-4 at home this 
    season. Doug West scored 27 points and Christian Laettner added 20
    for the Timberwolves, who have lost 16 straight to the Suns, including
    4 defeats this season.

    > I know I'd be annoyed if all-Piston team had
    > Laimbeer on it ahead of Bob Lanier...
      
    That wouldn't be as bad as one year of Charles Barkley, but I bet that
    if you left it to the fans in attendance at the Detroit games, they'd 
    still go with the current player, Laimbeer.  I wouldn't be too tough on 
    the Suns' fans for this.  People have short memories (plus Walter Davis 
    has some, ahem, negative baggage attached), and many serious fans ignore 
    these kind of hokey fan popularity contests altogether.  Hey, Red Sox 
    fans' supposedly voted for Rick Burleson as their all-time SS several 
    years back, when they had the number of a HOFer hanging on the rightfield
    wall...
    
    glenn
    

    Ok, Alvin Robertson over Dave Bing?  
    
    Davis may have some baggage, but he's the Nun's all-time leading
    scorer.
    
    I don't know Mike, no one at the Garden votes for the All-Phoenix team.
    Unless less it's the bandwagon jumpers, the fans don't seem to
    appreciate the team's history...
    

     <Hey, Red Sox
    <    fans' supposedly voted for Rick Burleson as their all-time SS several
    <    years back, when they had the number of a HOFer hanging on the
    <	rightfield     wall...
    
    Ok - you win.  What RedSox was a HOF Shortstop?  Oh, I just got it, Joe
    Cronin.  Good Point.  RedSox had another Hall of Famer (post WWII) at 
    3rd Base who probably finished behind Hobson in the voting.
    
    (I mention post WWII because If it was before that I couldn't help much
    (Rabbit Marinville :-)) - Joe C. actually was 1936-46
    
    My apologies to the Phoenix Suns noters - could never pass up a
    rathole.
    
    And to justify this reply - just what team do Suns least want to play
    in Playoffs? - my guess - Seattle and then Houston.
    
    Bill
    
    [EOB]
     

    I'm assuming Burleson played more than a half season for the Sox at the
    time?
    

    I'll add to the rathole...
    
    Isn't Luis Aparicio a HoF'er?
    
    Re: Walter Davis
    
    I may be wrong, but I don't believe he's still their all-time scorer. 
    I'd have to dig a little though to support my notion.  Chambers, though
    only a Sun for 6 years so far, passed the 17,000 mark before the season
    started and is #38 on the All-time list.
    
    MoS

    Well it was a game that Phoenix could afford to lose and Seattle had to
    win and both teams played like their respective roles.  Prior to the
    game, we learned that Indiana knocked off the Knicks to give the Suns
    HCA as long as they're alive in the playoffs.  Meanwhile, the Sonics
    are battling Houston for HCA in round 2 of the playoffs.
    
    Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp scored 19 points apiece last night to lead 
    the SuperSonics to a 108-102 victory over Suns in a matchup of the top 
    2 teams in the Western Conference.  This gives the Sonics the season
    series, 3-2.  The Clippers and Cleveland are the only other teams to win 
    their season series with Phoenix.
    
    Phoenix was without All-Star forward Charles Barkley, who is sidelined
    until Thursday's Portland game with an injured right shoulder.  Danny
    Ainge also came up lame with the flu prior to the game and didn't
    attend.  As EJ said afterwards, "We had to win for the sake of our own
    confidence knowing they were without the best player, and one of the
    best 6th men in the NBA.  If we had lost, it would've done more damage,
    knowing that.  We had to show ourselves that we could win here
    regardless."  
    
    The Sonics are 11-5 overall in their last 16 games.  The Suns, who have 
    only lost 2 of their last 14 games, dropped to 34-5 at home, 2nd best 
    in the league.  Cedric Ceballos scored 21 points to pace the Suns and 
    Thunder Dan added 18.  Ricky Pierce was ejected with 1 minute left in
    the game for 2 elbowing foul infractions.  Overall, the refs let them
    play and the game was as physical as most playoff games.  The Sonics
    played some great D most of the game.
    
    Phoenix still has to travel to Utah tonight and host Houston on Monday
    without Sir Charles.

    Chambers started his career with the Clippers and played in Seattle
    before going to Phoenix...
    

    I realize that, but do they only count players that have played an
    entire career with the franchise?  Since he's the all-time leading
    scorer, I'm sure Jabbar also leads the Lakers' in that category, yet he
    didn't play his whole career there.

    The Suns continued what coach Paul Westphal called, "...our second 
    exhibition season..." by losing to the Jazz, 110-101 at the Delta
    Center last Saturday night.  Phoenix hosts Houston tonight so another
    loss is probably in the making.
    
    Karl Malone scored 28 points and Ty Corbin added 5 of his 18 points in 
    the final 2:14, boosting the Jazz past the Suns.  The Jazz led 98-96 
    before scoring 12 of the game's last 17 points.  Utah played without
    the direction of head coach Jerry Sloan, who was suspended for 1 game 
    after pushing referee Bob Delaney in their previous game.
    
    Cedric Ceballos scored 25 points and Tom Chambers added 18 for the
    Suns.  KJ (resting), Barkley (IR), and Ainge (flu) stayed at home for 
    this one.  Paul Westphal continues to follow through on his promise to
    rest people and give his bench more time since they own HCA as long as
    their alive in the playoffs.  The Suns have lost 2 straight after winning 
    12 of 13.
    
    Jerrod Mustaf has been playing surprisingly well with his increased
    playing time.  
    
    Mike
    

    I don't think Chambers is the leading score in Suns history.  He played
    for enough teams that I think Davis would have outscored him.
    

    Eric,
    	Since you asked for it.... 
    
    I have about five HoFers , post war who played for Sox in addition to
    Doerr,Cronin,Ted and Yaz
    
    Kell made all star team with 52, 53 Sox
    
    (last Redsox rathole of Suns note - btw I guess Suns won't see Seattle
    or Houston until West Finale)

Yup I really like that ad. I wonder who sings for Barkley?

Of course the ad should be sued for mis-representation; Imean Charles as
the Angel of Goodnes, Hah!

The Crazy Met

>Yup I really like that ad. I wonder who sings for Barkley?
    
    well some of it sounds like him (spoken and slight melodic parts) and
    some obviously isn't.

>Of course the ad should be sued for mis-representation; Imean Charles as
>the Angel of Goodnes, Hah!
    
    He sure is!  Don't tell me you want Doc Rivers to do it! ;-)

    One fan asked last night, "How do you jump-start a championship team?"
    You had the feeling this would happen based on what Thunder was saying
    during the pregame festivities: "We're all anxious to end the season
    and start the playoffs."
    
    The red-hot Rockets came into town and totally humiliated the crew
    (minus Dumas and Barkley) the Suns put on the floor, 111-97.  The game 
    wasn't as close as the final score indicates.  They had enough people
    to at least make the game competitive, but the effort and intensity
    were MIA last night.  The Rockets had a 20 point lead after the first
    quarter (33-13) and never looked back.  It was a season low for the
    Suns as far as scoring output in a quarter goes.  Phoenix never came 
    closer than 14 (the final score) the rest of the game.
    
    Hakeem scored 30 points and Kenny Smith chipped in with 18 to pace the 
    Rockets to their 10th straight victory.  They led 57-37 at the half.
    KJ scored 18 points and Negele Knight netted 16 for the Suns, who have 
    dropped 3 in a row for the first time this year.
    
    The only bright spots in the game were:
    
    - Jerrod Mustaf, he's really played well now that he's getting some
      time.  They'll need him in the playoffs to bang with some of the
      bigger frontlines.
    - Dan Majerle and KJ only played 20 minutes.  Especially, Thunder;
      Westphal has been wearing the guy out with everyone else hurt.
    
    Suns end the season with games in Portland on Thursday, Spurs here on
    NBC Saturday, and at Denver to wrap things up on Sunday.  The Suns
    better sweep those 3 to get back in focus.

    Westphal knew what questions were coming afterwards so he basically
    said, "I'm embarassed for the team, myself, and the fans.  As for the
    playoffs, there's no need to push the panic button.  We have some work
    to do, but we'll be ready."
    
    let's hope so,
    Mike

    Well I guess we can all pack up and go home now that the "experts" have
    spoken.  "Inside Sports" says Phoenix won't even make the finals, it
    will be Chicago and Seattle.  "Sport" says the Suns aren't a
    championship team because:
    
    1. They're too short.
    2. The 3pt shooting will be toned down "by the urgency of the playoffs,
       when an open space is hard to come by."
    3. The Suns don't play good defense.  
    
    "Inside Sports" also echoed the Suns as weak defensively and said Utah,
    Portland, and Seattle are the better equipped half-court Western teams.
    Kind of makes you wonder how the Suns beat any of those teams this
    year.  The same magazine says Sir Charles is the reason why Phoenix
    *won't* win it all.  "When things get tough during the postseason, who
    will settle the team down?  Barkley may be one of the game's best
    players" (MAY be?) " but he has yet to prove he can control his
    emotions long enough to take his team deep into the pressurized
    playoffs, and the supporting cast in Phoenix is almost as emotional as
    Barkley."  They also call him a "time bomb."  
    
    "With Barkley, who can't be counted on to keep his cool, one doesn't
    know.  A man who doesn't believe in leadership will have to at least
    allow himself to be led if the Suns are to make a run at the crown. 
    And Barkley has no real playoff history.  The last time he went beyond
    the second round of the postseason, he was a rookie...in 1985.  In his
    final 6 years in Philly, Barkley's Sixers never got past the Eastern
    Conference semifinals and twice missed the playoffs.  He was never
    placed in the positin of having to deliver his team an NBA title.  Do
    the Suns have the focus and discipline to win 2, 3, or 4 competitve
    playoff season?" asks magazine editor, Vince Aversano.  "I don't think
    so."
    
    How about 1 series?  Can the Suns beat the Lakers?

    I wouldn't worry about a game like that against Houston. Houston still
    wants a better record than Seattle so that they get home court for that
    series. Suns have nothing to play for. The do need to start playing
    well again for the next few games, but last night means diddly.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

 Sorry but for me the "Barkley of Serville" was about the worst Nike Ad I've
 ever seen and that's saying a lot....They should have just turned it over
 to Spike and left well enough alone....

 MJ is all the jump start that the Bulls need.....

mike

> MJ is all the jump start that the Bulls need.....

Yes and no. Certainly MJ is what makes Chicago run. But keep
in mind that Jordan by himself was not enough to win a championship.
Good enough to advance in the playoffs, yes, a championship no.

How healthy the rest of the Bulls are will be important.

The Crazy Met

    BarkMan Comercials?
    
    Actually I kinda liked when the BarkMan took on GodZillerr.
    
    Ben

The fact that MJ with even less talent than he has around him now, was 
able to extend a far superior Detroit team to two 7 games series is just
a further testment to how good he really is. Pippen was a shadow of
what he is now and even now he's still ridding MJ's coattails.....

Only team I see with a chance against them is the CAVS if Wilkins does
what they picked him up to do. Knicks are going to be too fatigued by
Riley's insasiable appetite to finish with the best record. No days off
for the last few months is going to be their downfall besides the fact 
that Chicago is just plain out better than them.

mike  

I certainly hope that I can make the author of .412 eat his words.

The Crazy Met

    Tonight's game marks only the 12th time this season that all 12 members
    of the team will be in uniform, active, and eligible to play.
    
    Charles had an "incident" the other day.  A woman approached him in a
    restaurant and asked him for an autograph.  Charles, being the epitome
    of conservatism that he is, naturally obliged.  A few minutes later,
    the same woman comes back and asks for *20* more!  Charles replied
    with "Sorry, only 1 per person."  The woman proceeded to tear up his
    autograph in his face so he dumped the remainder of his beer on her.
    
    Mike (who found it amusing)

But of course since it was Sir Charles that dumped the beer, Mike H does
not find the act to be reprehensible, but rather a case of boys
will be boys. Does anyone believe that this would have been the attitude
if, say Doc Rivers had done the same thing??   NOT!

The Crazy Met

>I certainly hope that I can make the author of .412 eat his words.

>The Crazy Met


How? Are you playing for the Knicks at night now and working at DEC during the
day?


Metz

    Au contraire TCM, I think the dumping of the beverage was a little too
    much, even if she did ask for 20 signatures.  He could've handled it a
    little more tactfully.
    
    She probably wanted that many to sell them for $.  Shame on her.

>>>I certainly hope that I can make the author of .412 eat his words.

>>>The Crazy Met


>How? Are you playing for the Knicks at night now and working at DEC during the
>day?


>Metz


	Dammit Metz, ya beat me to it.  Sorry TCC, but you sippin' Perrier at
	home ain't gonna make any diff' on the court.


	billl

>      Suns fans are so starved for a championship that they're willing to 
>      overlook the fact that their team "leader" is socially disfunctional.
    
    It's absolutely amazing how you can detect all that from the nation's
    9th largest city, from a 3,000 mile radius.

Damn literalists.

To rephrase:

I hope I have the opportunity to see the author of .412 eat his words.

Better?  :-)

The Crazy Met

re: .420

Actually all we need is to sense how starved a transplant is for a 
championship and then extrapolate from there.

The Crazy Met

    that doesn't work either TCM.  There are tons of Bay Staters out here
    that have been given 16 titles by the Celts.

	FLASH FLASH FLASH

	Tommy Brydie gives Mikey Heiser a verbal beating like a red-headed
	stepchild.  

	Film at 11.

Of course it works Mike. See if you BayStaters who have seen Championships
are so desperate to see one in Phoenix, natives must be even more desperate.

The Crazy Met

Heck of an ending to last nights game. 3 pointer by Portland to take a 1 point
lead with 0.5 seconds left. Phoenix threw the ball off the backboard on the
inbound play. Barkley made a desperation shot that went in. Phoenix wins
by 1.

The Crazy Met

>Of course it works Mike. See if you BayStaters who have seen Championships
>are so desperate to see one in Phoenix, natives must be even more desperate.

>The Crazy Met
    
    Ignoring the fact that the 2nd sentence is convoluted, it's also incorrect.
    I would say that most BayStaters in Phoenix are relatively ambivalent
    about the Suns.  Don't judge the rest of us by Mike.
    
    As far as your comment about tranplants starved for a championship, I
    thought you were talking about yourself.
    
    brews

    Sounds like the Nuns (tm) team leading is leading by example...

   
>>    As far as your comment about tranplants starved for a championship, I
>>    thought you were talking about yourself.
>>    
>>   brews


	High five, Brews, high five!!!!!


	billl

re: .430

Don't get too excited Bill. Brews was wrong about the rest of the
discussion as well.

The Crazy Met

    Brews, not all Bay State transplants are avid hoops fans either.  Sure
    I get emotional where Boston or Phoenix is concerned, but I thoroughly 
    enjoy great hoops no matter who's playing.

       >After last night's ending, if you're not convinced destiny is on
       >Phoenix's side, nothing will convince you.  The Suns sure looked
    
        Please don't say it's You-Know-Who's will... and things happening
        for a reason.
     
    After the Broon's fan's claims of being on their way to da Cup, I'd
    hold off on prognositicating about things being "meant to be".  

Mike,

do you also have on-line the records of the Knicks and Bulls against
the East Conference playoff teams??

thanks

The Crazy Met

    Just entered them TCM.  I skipped Cleveland though because they're
    probably "worse" than the Suns on the road vs. the playoff teams.

        <<< Note 36.440 by FRETZ::HEISER "break this ball and chain" >>>
                       -< need some perspective on this >-

    Just entered them TCM.  I skipped Cleveland though because they're
    probably "worse" than the Suns on the road vs. the playoff teams.
              ^^^^^
	 	 but that "worse" team kicked the crap out of the Suns
		 on the Suns' homecourt so what gives? Given that the
		 "East" is easier shouldn't their road record be better?
		  ~/~.....

 mike

      Nice way for the nuggets to end the season last night.  A 3 point
    buzzer shot from Chris Jackson beats the Suns.  Payback from 2-3 weeks
    ago;^)
    
      It was a good game while I watched.  Close the whole time.
    
    
      Tim

    Well the Suns played 2 "meaningless" games this weekend and split them. 
    On Saturday's nationally televised game, Sir Charles said the magic
    words to one of the officials (actually repeated them for clarity's
    sake) and the Suns showed they can actually play without him.  Last
    night, Chris Jackson's 3pt prayer at the buzzer beat the Suns in the
    Mile-High city.
    
    In the Spurs game, Long Range Ainge hit a jumper from the top of the key 
    with 13 seconds left, giving the Suns a 99-97 victory.  Ainge's shot gave 
    the Suns a 98-96 lead, but the Spurs had a chance to tie on their next 
    trip but Willie Anderson hit only 1 of 2 free throws. The Spurs fouled 
    Ainge as soon as he took the inbounds pass, and Ainge made 1 of 2 free 
    throws with 9.2 seconds left, giving the Spurs one last chance.  Avery 
    Johnson missed a 3-pointer and The Admiral missed a follow-up as time 
    expired.  Richard Dumas scored 23 points and Thunder Dan added 20 points 
    for the Suns.  Robinson scored 20 points and pulled down 19 rebounds and 
    Dale Ellis added 20 for the Spurs.  The Suns played without KJ, who is 
    out with a knee injury, and lost Sir Charles in the 2nd quarter.  He left 
    the game with 8 points.  The 4th quarter featured 3 lead changes and 5 
    ties. The Suns had the biggest lead of the quarter, building a 9-point 
    advantage with 5:02 left.  San Antonio came back as Ellis had 7 points 
    and Robinson contributed 5 during a 16-7 burst.
    
    As Magic and Enberg said, the Suns showed a lot by winning without
    Charles.  I also got a chuckle thinking what everyone's reactions would
    be to the broadcasting duo's praising of *Suns Defense*!  

    In last night's game, Chris Jackson hit a 3-point prayer over 2
    defenders at the buzzer to lift the Nuggets to a 120-118 victory over the 
    Suns.  Dikembe Mutombo had 20 points and 14 rebounds and Robert Pack added
    20 for the Nuggets, who avoided being swept by the Suns this season and
    finished 28-13 at home this season.  Richard Dumas had another solid
    game with 25 points and Thunder Dan had 20 for the Suns.  The game with
    close the whole way with several (i.e, at least 16) lead changes and
    ties.
    
    The Suns finished with the NBA's best record at 62-20, the franchise's
    best season ever.  Phoenix will host the Lakers in round 1 starting on
    Friday night.
    
    Mike

 But if the Suns loose in the first round will anybody besides Dan S. and
 the gang be happy? 

 mike

>	 	 but that "worse" team kicked the crap out of the Suns
>		 on the Suns' homecourt so what gives? Given that the
>		 "East" is easier shouldn't their road record be better?
    
    A 2pt win does not = "kicked the crap out of" and nobody said the East
    was easier.  Of their 6 games in Chicago and NY, the Cavs have won *1*!
    Phoenix equaled that in only 2 games.

re: .445

absolutely! See Dan S won't be around to crow, but this note will
be lots of fun!

The Crazy Met

    
>    A 2pt win does not = "kicked the crap out of" and nobody said the East
>    was easier.  Of their 6 games in Chicago and NY, the Cavs have won *1*!
>   Phoenix equaled that in only 2 games.


	But if the West is better than the East has to be easier, logic
        dictates such.

 	"kicked the crap out of" is just another expression for a loss.
	I mean we always hear it makes no difference if it's a 2 point 
	or a 40 point loss it's still only 1 game in the loss columun.

 mike

>	But if the West is better than the East has to be easier, logic
>        dictates such.
    
    I believe they're closer to parity than the Eastern bias in here would
    allow.  This Eastern bias never gives the West respect or a legitimate 
    chance.

re:  .449

Mike, they are also closer to parity than you would lead us to believe.

The Crazy Met

Well I must be part of that Eastern bias then cause the West still hasn't
shown me anything. I think that anyone of the 5 top Eastern teams would
take out the Suns in a 7 games series. If it lasted that long.....The
West's best chance for the title is to send Houston and hope Akeem gets
in "a Zone"....

mike

re: .451

Cleveland, NY, Chicago you might be able to say that about.
Boston and Charlotte?? I doubt it.

The Crazy Met

    Fear not Mike, the "Eastern Bias" you speak of does exist, but it's
    reliability index is so far off the map it's laughable.  For example,
    for years now they've been denying all logic, statistics, and common
    sense to state that:
    
    BigEast >= ACC
    
    !!!
    
    Haw haw haw!  I've no idea how good Phoenix is (I'm absolutely miffed
    and, yes, POed, that "The Greyhound", WalterD, was inexplicably left
    off their "All-Time" team, but I suspect his former drug problem was at
    the root of this bias), .... BUT, ... I simply must go on record
    stating:
    
    Kudos to Charles Barkley for steadfastly refusing to tolerate the
    substandard officiating that takes place in the FAintastic NBA.  It's
    attrocious, everybody knows it, and it's turned the league into a joke. 
    Kevin McHale was on Roy Firestone's show recently lamenting how bad it
    is and wishing he had the guts like Charles to not put up with it.
    
    As I say, KUDOS!
    
    
    - ACC Chris

TCM, we're talking about the Suns/Puns here.......

mike

    Weren't all the ones since they clinched home court "meaningless".
    
    The Suns should thank Doc and Greg for their tactics.  Knicks win
    that game and don't get suspended and split those two games, they
    have home court and not Phoenix.
     

    "This Laker team is strictly a half-court team and that is as fun as
    watching grass grow in '93.  The Phoenix Suns are the closest team in
    the NBA to the original Showtime."  - Chick Hearn on this morning's news

    
    From the AP (reprinted w/o permission):
    
    "The Los Angeles Lakers, the only team in the NBA playoffs with a losing
    record, upset the top-seeded Phoenix Suns 107-103 in their series opener
    Friday night at Phoenix.
    
    Byron Scott made three free throws down the stretch - the final two
    with 9.4 seconds left - as the Lakers scored the last nine points to
    win the game and wipe out the Suns' home-court advantage in their best-
    of-five series. Phoenix finished with the league's best record, 62-20.
    
    Los Angeles was 39-43 in the regular season.
    
    Sedale Threatt scored 35 points, and Byron Scott 22 for the Lakers. LA
    outrebounded the Suns 50-49. Charles Barkley had 34 to pace Phoenix, and
    he and Eldon Campbell had technical fouls."
    
    My own comments:
    
    * Barkley was pampered by the refs in the 2nd half, to no avail.
    
    * Worthy was pathetic, 4-15 from the floor. So was Majerle, also 4-15.
    
    * Eldon Campbell on Barkley 1-on-1 was effective in the first half.
    
    * Chambers looked good, 7-11 (4-4) for 18 points.
    
    Go Lakers !
    
    - acp

    LA beat the Suns by 5 in game 2 and now lead the best of 5 series 2-0.
    Next 2 games are in LA. I await with breathless anticipation the
    comments of our foremost Suns fan.
    
    re: .460 You may get the honor of being the first to "comment" when the
    fat lady, hopefully sings for the demise of the Suns.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Thanks TCM, you know I will ! ((:^))
    
    But is this GREAT, or what ? Where in the hell is Heiser ???
    
    I LOVE IT !
    
    - acp

    .459 means as much now as it did when ya wrote it..... nada.
    
    Even tho, the Suns cain come back and win this thang, .459 shows ya how
    much regular season can mean... just ask us Broon fans.
    
    Is Brunhilde jetting out from the East Coast to La La land, ore can
    The Suns avoid setting... "Ah don't think so..." 
    
    And I honestly do not take much perverse joy in this (well, not much)
    
    
    Shocked,
    MikeL
    

    This outta be interesting....

After seeing the crap that ole Chuckie B. was getting away with friday
nite and Jimmy Clang still suckin' wind I actually found myself able
to root for the Lakers. It was too much for me to handle so I skipped
yesterday's game entirely.......

Celts/Charlotte has been the most entertaining series so far and makes
me feel good about my claim that anyone of the top 5 eastern teams would
deck whoever survives the West.....

mike

    
    But KJ's been injured...
    
    glenn
    

    So has Peeler...
    
    Nice use of the Barkley of Seville shoes in Divac's chest.  Must have
    picked it up from Isiah or Rivers... maybe Laettner...

    WOW!!!  Christmas in May!
    
    I wouldn't be that surprised if Phoenix did come back to win this
    series, however.  The Lakers' best chance to win this thing will be in
    game 3, and if they don't win game 3 they definitely better do it in
    game 4.
    
    
    Joe

      I'm somewhat shocked.  I hope the Suns win it,  but in the same
    breath, its funny how the favorite is falling, at home none-the-less.
    
      I did notice in fridays game that Barkley does get preferential
    treatment.  Didn't watch yesterdays game.
    
      Tim

    
    
    
        Mike Heiser watch hour 5.  :-)
    
    
    Chappy

    	The Lakers would have not made the playoffs in the Eastern
    Conference.  Wonder how many celebrities are jetting out of New
    York today for the Left Coast?
    
    				/Don

re: .472

Ahh be nice, I know tough for a Yankees fan to do :-). Phoenix is
in teh Central time zone so its only Mike H. watch, hour 2-3

The Crazy Met

    The Lakers are saying they are taking a page from the Suns history
    book.  A few years back (85?) a 40 win Suns team went on to represent
    the West in the NBA championships (only to lose to the Celts).

>    The Lakers are saying they are taking a page from the Suns history
>    book.  A few years back (85?) a 40 win Suns team went on to represent
>    the West in the NBA championships (only to lose to the Celts).

That was more like mid-70's, wasn't it?

Joe

    
    Phoenix is in the Pacific Time Zone, now, so it's the first hour.  
    
    re .460   This Faker fan has been noticeably absent _all_ year, and now
    you guys are gonna welcome him back?  That's as bad as Arsenio, who's
    probably scrambling now, trying to remember who he gave his seats to ,a
    tough feat, since he  hasn't been at a LAkers game all year.
    
    If Heiser does show up, you guys will have to give him credit.  He will
    be taking a load of crap that will be a Sprots record.  Half the people
    in here wouldn't show up (and we know who they are).
    
    brews, in a _very_ quiet office today

    
    Hey, guys, it's not over yet.  In fact, I'd give Phoenix at least an 
    even shot to win the next three and take the series, if they have any
    pride at all and don't just give up.  If it was anyone else in the
    playoffs but the Lakers I wouldn't feel this way.  The Lakers really 
    just don't have any business being on the floor with a team like the 
    Suns, home or away.  I don't know what the problem with the Suns has 
    been, but I expect them to straighten out.  And if they do, it may be
    that this kind of a scare gives renewed purpose...
    
    glenn
       

      Any team with a losing record doesn't deserve to in playoffs IMO. 
    
      Tim

 Yabbut either way Glenn, we can't loose. If the Suns loose it's great and
 if the Lakers loose 3 straight it's just as juicy.......

 mike

    
    I knew the Suns were in trouble the 1st couple minutes of game 1.  They
    were all passing the ball to someone else, not wanting to be the guy to
    take a shot (except for Charles).  I think Barkley scored the 1st 7
    points or sumpin.  They looked skeert beign the favorites, maybe
    they'll loosen up now.
    
    brews

Suns gotta start running. They gotta start fast breaking off of made baskets 
by the lakers, gotta start running every time down the court. No half court
offense allowed. Full court pressure on defense and their wear the lakers
into oblivion.

They look tired and disinterested now...


Metz

    I've been noting in here for over 7 years and I'm shocked that anyone
    would still think I'm the type to hide when things don't go well for my
    team.  Phoenix, though it is in the Mountain timezone, is the same as
    the Pacific timezone from April to October (we don't observe DST).  I
    was here early and took the time to write up my objective game report.
    Shame on all of you.
    
    I'm also shocked to see these Laker fans suddenly come out of the
    woodwork like they were in a time warp or something.  Where have all of
    you been since November?  At least I've been in here defending my team.
    
    Besides, what I already entered, our only hope is that this weekend
    served as one HUGE wakeup call.  If you ask me, game 1 alone should've
    taken care of that so I have my doubts.
    
    Mike

I'd MUCH rather be the underdog than the favorite, any day.

re: Magic's commentary

Actually I was a bit disappointed in how pro-Lakers he sounded during the
last few minutes. Sure he was on the Lakers, but on a national telecast he
really should tone it down; commenting on what the Lakers were accomplishing
is one thing but he went a mite too far.

The Crazy Met

    Shouldn't thaty be SLumber Dan instead of Thunder Dan?
    
    brews

Quick question:

	Is it just Phoenix that doesn't observe DST, or the entire
	Mountain Time Zone?


'Saw

Neither 'Saw. It is all of Arizona that does not go to Daylight time.
So April-October they are 3 hours behind the Eastern time zone,
November-March they are 2 hours behind the Eastern time zone.

Indiana has all sort of wierd time zone configurations.

The Crazy Met

>	Is it just Phoenix that doesn't observe DST, or the entire
>	Mountain Time Zone?
    
    The entire state of Arizona minus the Indian reservations (not sure
    why they do).  We have enough sunshine so that it isn't really
    necessary.  We are 2 hours behind in the winter, 3 in the summer.

>    The entire state of Arizona minus the Indian reservations (not sure
>    why they do).  We have enough sunshine so that it isn't really
>    necessary.  We are 2 hours behind in the winter, 3 in the summer.

To quote Johnny Carson:

	I did not know that.

To quote my mom:

	Learn something new every day.


'Saw

    Better to not observe DST than DSB...
    
    Was losing 2 part of destiny?  It's still not over, but they aren't
    making it easy...
    

>    As someone in here recently said, does any noter really know any other
>    noter.
    
    That's true for outside of Sports, which that comment was referring to
    (that thread wasn't Sports-related).  It doesn't take a rocket
    scientist, 7 years time, or even a sarcastic moderator, to figure out that 
    someone hides or doesn't hide from the conference when their team chokes.

    oh boy note .500?

    
    If game 1 didn't wake up the Suns, they need something pretty serious.
    
    brews

    The new kids need more experience.  Dumas, Knight, and Ceballos haven't
    really been through this before.  It's much easier having and Edwards
    or Worthy come off the bench for you in situations like this.
    

    The lack of minutes for Dumas is one of the biggest second-guessing of
    Westphal around here.  He had 18 points in 24 minutes, but Westphal had
    him on the bench in the 2nd and 4th quarters when the Lakers made their
    runs.
    
    Dumas scored 10 quick points in the 1st quarter as Phoenix built a 3
    point lead.  He had 8 in the third when the Suns went on a run and
    built a 10 point lead.  Where was he in the 4th when the Suns offense
    was broken down and Charles couldn't throw the ball in the ocean? 
    Westphal put him in with less than a minute left so Dumas could misfire
    a desperation 3-pointer.
    
    With the Lakers playing man-to-man, they needed offensive threats to
    force the issue.  Dumas and KJ are great isolation players but Phoenix
    never used them in this way.  
    
    Mike

>    As someone in here recently said, does any noter really know any other
>    noter.
    
     Does anybody really know what time it is?

    Does anybody really care?

Why ask why?

    ...and to make matters worse, Bill Walton agreed with Paul Westphal's
    post-game prediction.

    If LA does in fact win this series, they meet the winner of
    Portland VS San Antonio, just curious how the lakers did against
    these 2 teams in the regular season, not that it matters, but the
    lakers with a win over phoenix could work there way into the Western
    Finals ????? Now that would be something for a team that not only
    wouldnt have made the playoffs in the east but would have finished
    10th behind orlando as well !!!!!!!!!!!  
    							MairB
    
    And I thought the upsets would happen in the east,
    althought Charlotte and NJ could both still pull
    upsets I think Indiana blew there chances big time.

What do people think of Chuck's new commercial?

I agree with the sentiment expressed but the reality of the situation is that
with the money and publicity these players make comes the fact that they are
held up as role models.

My wife hates the commercial. She feels that the athletes need to contribute
positively instead of always living up to the bad-boy image and then insisting
that they aren't role models. They can't accept the $$$ for having their faces
plastered all over everywhere and then insist they want to be left alone.


Metz

>What do people think of Chuck's new commercial?
    
    Which one?  Barkley of Seville?
    
    Re: Lakers vs. Portland & San Antonio
    
    They won the season series against Portland (probable round 1 winner)
    3-2 and split with San Antonio (2-2).  

No, the new one is barkley saying he is not a role model...you'll know it when
you see it. They've been showing it 2-3 times a game during the playoffs...


Metz

I haven't seen the ad, but I did hear him talk one night on Arsenio on
this subject.

He had some very real, very classy things to say about it.  Bottom line,
it's up the parents to do the work, the parents should be teaching the
children.

If I see the new ad, I'll post an opinion.


'Saw

    
> I agree with the sentiment expressed but the reality of the situation is that
> with the money and publicity these players make comes the fact that they are
> held up as role models.
    
    I also agree with the sentiment but it's ridiculous that we have to
    have our noses rubbed in it in a commercial.  Or, more to the point,
    why don't they go all the way and make the commercial pertinent by 
    having Chuck say, "Hey, don't listen to me, don't emulate me, buy 
    whatever shoes you and your parents feel make sense.  These things 
    are overpriced, anyway."  That's what he's on the tube for, to sell 
    shoes, not as a public service.  The disclaimer by the sponsor sets a 
    new low in hypocrisy.
    
    There's a new and morally bankrupt attitude around the commercialization
    of sports these days.  Just in the past week I've read and seen (SI,
    ESPN) where baseball players like Kirby Puckett, Cal Ripken, and Junior
    Griffey are *criticized* for failing to promote their game (read:
    themselves) by refusing to do endorsements for the likes of such
    wonderful products as potato chips, beer, etc.  The sport just isn't 
    enough anymore; there has to be a commercialized circus atmosphere 
    around it in order to make it a "success".
    
    glenn
    

I agree Glen. Players should be lauded for just playing the sport but those
players that go seek out commercial endorsements to shill products and become 
houshold names must take on the additional responsibility of being pushed at
millions of kids.

Barkley can't just wipe his hands clean of the whole role model thing by 
saying so in a commercial that is shilling shoes.

Jordan can't complain about his lack of privacy when he's actively searching
out more and more ways to increase his publicity.

If Griffey .Jr doesn't want to do publicity and doesn't want to become an 
ambassador of the game more power to him. If Cal Ripken .Jr just wants to 
play the game then fine...it's their job and they have very right. I do have
a tough time with people that seek out the spotlight and then complain about
being held up as role models or complain about not being able to go out in
public. 

It reminds me about our last trip back east. K.C Jones was on our flight 
from Seattle and he acted and was treated like any other passenger (cept he was
flying 1st class..probably lifetime upgrades from all the traveling he used to 
do)..on our return flight the twins from the tv show full house (I can't believe
I recognised those twerps) were being driven around the Minnysoda airport waving
to everybody and acting like they were in some parade. 

Some celebs avoid the spotlight without problem and others gravitate to it.

Metz

    Local reports state that Michael "Mr. Defense" Cooper was the one that
    said to play Sir Charles straight up.  Of course, the point would be
    moot if Barkley hit 50% of his shots in the paint.
    
    Between him, Majerle, and Ainge missing their shots, the Lakers didn't
    have much left to defend.

    re: .509
    
    I would hardly call a Charlotte win a real upset. They had almost the
    same record as Boston did. NJ earlier this year would have been an
    upset but not an unthinkable one, now with Anderson and ?? out it
    would qualify as a big upset.
    
    If LA beats Phoenix it would be the biggets upset, in terms of
    difference in regular season record, ever. Phoenix finished 23 games
    ahead of LA in the regular season. This is over a 82 game season which
    makes it a HUGE amount. Heck even in baseball where the season in twice
    as long 23 GB is considered to be very far back.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

From: clarinews@clarinet.com (JEFF SHAIN)
Newsgroups: clari.sports.basketball,clari.sports.top
Subject: Suns on verge of fizzling out

	PHOENIX (UPI) -- The Phoenix Suns, the brightest meteor on the NBA
horizon during the regular season, suddenly are on the verge of a quick
and ignoble flameout.
	The team with the best record in the NBA, a team which reached the
60-win plateau for the first time in the franchise's 25-year history,
finds itself one game away from being swept out of the first round of
the playoffs.
	Sunday's 86-81 loss to the Los Angeles Lakers dropped Phoenix to 0-2
in the best-of-five series and left the Suns searching for answers.
	``I have no problem with the way we've played these two games, but
for some reason we haven't played well enough to win,'' forward Charles
Barkley said. ``We've got to start fresh and come out ready to play.''
	Unless Phoenix bounces back Tuesday night to win Game 3 at the Forum
in Inglewood, Calif., the Suns are destined to go down as the biggest
playoff flop in NBA history.
	In the nine years since the NBA went to a 16-team playoff format, the
top team in the conference never has suffered first-round elimination to
the No. 8 seed. To be swept in the process -- well, that's the ultimate
embarrassment.
	And the series already has been embarrassing enough for the Suns, who
dropped the first two games of the series at their new purple palace --
the America West Arena -- after losing just six home games during the
regular season. And Sunday's measly 11-point output in the fourth period
set a club playoff record for fewest points in a quarter.
	``That's hard to take,'' admitted Suns coach Paul Westphal, who has
come under intense scrutiny for his coaching decisions in the playoffs.
``But let's give (the Lakers) credit. I thought we played well enough to
win and they just took the game anyway.''
	Despite the additions of postseason veterans Barkley and Danny Ainge,
the Suns haven't been able to match the Lakers in playoff readiness or
intensity.
	``(The Suns) think the playoffs are like the regular season,'' said
Magic Johnson, the former Laker great who now works as an NBC analyst. 
``They haven't changed their attitude or their game for the playoffs.''
	The Suns' biggest problem has been scoring. They led the league with
an average of 113.4 points per game during the regular season, including
14 games in which they exceeded 125 points, but have averaged only 92 in
the playoffs.
	``We're just not confident on the offensive end,'' said guard Kevin
Johnson, who returned Sunday after missing Game 1 and the last two
regular-season contests with a sprained knee. ``I don't know if it's the
Lakers, it's the playoffs or what. We have to get more cocky on offense.
''
	Phoenix's two biggest outside threats -- Ainge and Dan Majerle -- have
yet to find their rhythm. Ainge, playing with a bad wrist, has hit just
5 of 20 shots from the floor, and only 1 of 7 from three-point range.
	Majerle has struggled even more. The team's No. 2 scorer during the
regular season with a 16.9 average, Majerle has totaled 17 points in the
two games put together. He has connected on just 7 of 26 shots from the
floor and is 1-for-11 in three-pointers.
	``I'm not getting the looks on my shots like I usually do, but this
is the playoffs and I don't expect to,'' said Majerle, who tied
Indiana's Reggie Miller for the most three-pointers this season. ``I
still have to make the shots. I just have to make a few jumpers, that's
all.''
	The inability of Phoenix to hit from the outside has allowed the
Lakers to collapse down low on Barkley and, to a lesser extent, Tom
Chambers. Barkley missed all eight shots from the floor in the fourth
quarter Sunday as the Suns allowed the Lakers to dictate the pace.
	``We've got to get the game speeded up, no question,'' Barkley said.
	Kevin Johnson added: ``Once we hit a few jump shots, that will open
things up for Chuck. I have no doubt that Dan and Dan will get going.
They're going to get their touch back, as long as we don't run out of
time.''
	Time isn't a luxury the Suns have right now. One more bad performance
and the Suns will set early in the West.
	Westphal, for one, remains confident, even if his post-game
prediction Sunday comes off as a desperate reach.
	``Are we dead? No,'' Westphal said. ``We're going to win the series.
We'll win Tuesday, win the next game on Thursday and then come back here
and win the series and everybody will say what a great series it was.''
	Those Lakers who are veterans of the playoff wars were unimpressed by
Westphal's statement.
	``There are no guarantees in this league,'' guard Byron Scott said. 
``They will come back, but it's too early to start making guarantees.''
	Forward A.C. Green added: ``I've heard guarantees before. It's
definitely going to be an exciting time. Phoenix will fight back, we
know that. We'll take each game at a time.''
	If the Lakers can do it once more, the Suns will have become victims
of perhaps the biggest upset in basketball since Villanova's shocker
over Georgetown in the 1985 NCAA title game.
	``We've been a team to battle adversity all year long, and this will
certainly be our greatest challenge,'' Kevin Johnson said. ``Our backs
are against the wall and I look forward to the next three games.
Everybody predicted us to win three games in a row. It's time to win our
three in a row.''

	Sorry, but I don't buy this NewAge BS that the athlete, because he 
makes tremendous amounts of money has to be a role model.  Why don't we 
hold the corporate crooks like Boesky to the same level of scrutiny?  
Nobody forces people to buy sneakers.  I have many friends with teenage 
kids and the smart ones tell their kids if they want $50.00 sneakers go out 
and get a part-time job and earn them.  Otherwise you wear what mom and dad 
can afford.  I believe ACK would call it "tough love".

				/Don

    re. 514,515 - Here I am borrowing Suns note again.
    
    I agree with Glenn on SI article.  Great picture of Joe DiMaggio on
    cover but reporting in SI has become wierd.  The symptom of baseball
    not having the appeal to youth of nba basketball may be less commercial
    demand for services at a national level but at the same time the writer
    should have stated that the less commercialization is one last plus in
    baseball's favor.  They will lose the adult fans if they
    overcommercialize it, just like many college bball fans are not big nba
    fans.
    
    	Okay, speaking of nba and suns.  I listen to weei often in car and
    chuckled at callers looking for therapy because they found themselves
    rooting for LA.  Actually watching byron,worthy,vlad doing there 80s
    thing brought back all the good old hate - go Suns
    
    oth-bill

    Boesky is not on commericals, using his public image, to entice people
    to buy a certain product.  
    
    John "D Cowboys" R.

         
    I didn't say that Charles Barkley should be a role model, or that he
    shouldn't make advertisements for shoes.  What I said is that coming on
    TV and claiming that he isn't a role model in a shoe commercial is
    tantamount to saying "Don't listen to me, I'm no role model; I'm
    probably not even to be trusted with this endorsement.  I just play 
    basketball."  Once upon a time there was at least the illusion (however 
    fraudulent) that the athlete was sincere in the endorsement; that in 
    part because of his position of importance or trust that the endorsement 
    from the athlete was worth something.  Now the sponsors have done away 
    with even that small pretense, and are freely acknowledging that personal 
    character or trustworthiness do not stand behind the endorsement.  It's
    just a basketball player getting paid.
    
    glenn
    

>      want to hear the awful truth about Santa Claus.


Santa Claus is really a socio-political myth, seeded into the minds
of our ancient ancestors, by the extraterrestrials.   Santa Claus
was really a big burly man with lots of body hair who liked to molest
little boys.

hth,
'Saw         
    
    

    Did Santa Claus shoot jfk?
    
    I thought it was odd that Charles said his role was to cause mayhem.
    I thought it was to win basketball games...
    

    >  So basically, you preferred it when the ads and the athletes were
    >  more deceptive?
    
    I meant that *some* of the ads were fraudulent.  I'm sure that many of 
    them were also completely sincere, and did carry some authority.  This
    is just the first time I've seen an advertiser try to distance itself
    in any way from its spokesperson.  It's not dishonest, it's just a bit
    illogical when you think it through.  I'm not operating under any
    illusions over whether athletes are generally sincere with their
    endorsements, but obviously *someone* is.  Why else would there be a
    proven correlation between the endorsement and sales?  Because a lot of
    gullible people truly do want to be like the athlete...
    
    glenn
    

>    Did Santa Claus shoot jfk?
    
No.

But he was the guy who opened the umbrella, which let the shooter on the
grassy knoll know when to shoot.


hth,
'Saw    

    I thought that was Michael Jordan...
    

>    I thought that was Michael Jordan...

No, he was on the grassy knoll....   


Roger McDowell was really who was doing the shooting from the Library
Tower in Texas that day....


hth,
'Saw
    

    
    >    Or maybe it's like why sponsors spend all of that money sponsoring
    >    race cars. Fans figure that if it's good enough for a race car
    >    it'll be good enough for the family car.     
    
    As opposed to not realizing who pays the most for the endorsement.  So
    maybe there really is a Santa Claus?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Heck of a game last night. Suns kept pulling away, Lakers kept coming
back. At 101-100 when Worthy (or was it Scott) had that open 17 footer I 
figured Lakers will get the lead and it will soon be over; how the H**L
did he mis that #$%*(&(^&*() shot.

Gutsy performance by the Suns.

Game 4 on Thursday night.

The Crazy Met

Play of the game was the elbow by KJ to Vlade face. Vlade had to leave
and get 10 stitches. He came back but too late.

Vlade has shown everyone how to beat the Suns: sucker Westphal into
letting Tom Chambers come in and pretend like he's guarding somebody.
Just look at the late stages of game 2 when Vlade hit a hook over Tommy
Gun and then went Chambers stood and watched as Vlade moved around him to
the basket.

If'n Vlade and the Lakers can do that at all, so can most of the teams
left in the playoffs.

KJ had the right idea.

TTom

> At 101-100 when Worthy (or was it Scott) had that open 17 footer I 
> figured Lakers will get the lead and it will soon be over; how the H**L
> did he mis that #$%*(&(^&*() shot.

It was Worthy - I can't believe he missed it either.  It wasn't even 17 feet,
was it?  Lakers were given plenty of chances by Phonyix down the stretch.

If the Lakers don't win Thursday night the Suns will definitely win the series.


Joe

                
    If Vlade can stick in 30 points despite missing a good chunk of the
    game, what will Hakeem do?  Of course both teams have to get there
    first, but the top-flight centers must be sitting back licking their
    chops at the proposition.  These are the playoffs now, boys, where
    shooting arms tighten up with the defenses, and the men who can play 
    inside rule the land...
    
    glenn
    

let's not forget ole Danny Deranged there either Tommy....he can still
create a turnover all by himself with the best of them....

mike

    While Phoenix played better than the first 2 games, I still think they
    stunk.  The Suns tried their best to give the game away but the Lakers
    would have no part of it.  The team you saw build 15-point leads on 3 
    different occaisions was the team that won 62 games.  I don't know who 
    was out there the rest of the time.  And it was a major, but awesome, 
    surprise to see the 2 rookies (Oliver Miller & Richard Dumas) step up in 
    crunch time when the veterans (especially Barkley) couldn't deliver. 
    As Paul Westphal said, "They both made some gutsy plays.  They didn't
    look like rookies to me."  
    
    Sir Charles had another pathetic shooting night, but fortunately the
    rest of the cast pitched in this time.  Phoenix even revived some of
    their 3-point game too.  Barkley shot 9 of 23 from the floor but finished 
    with 27 points and 11 rebounds to lead the Suns to a 107-102 win.
    
    "Tonight we played with enthusiasm and emotion like we did all year," 
    Barkley said.  "Now we have to take it game by game because only our
    fans in Phoenix and the 12 guys in this locker room believe we can win
    it all.  I've got the best teammates in the world," Barkley said. "It
    really made me feel good that my teammates went to me tonight. I love
    these guys."
    
    Richard Dumas added 18 points for the Suns, including two free throws
    in the final minute.  With the Suns ahead 103-100, the Lakers fouled
    Thunder (or is that Slumber) Dan but he missed 2 free throws.  Byron 
    Scott's layup cut the lead to 103-102 with :19 left and A.C. Green
    (would he look great in Phoenix purple!  he'll be a free-agent this
    summer) immediately fouled Dumas.  He then hit his 2 clinching free 
    throws.  Vlade Divac's 3-point attempt to tie the score with :08 left 
    missed everything.  KJ was then fouled and hit 2 free throws to finish 
    with 17 points.
    
    Divac led the Lakers with a career-high playoff total of 30 points.
    A.C. Green tallied 14 points and pulled down a game-high 17 rebounds for
    Los Angeles.  "We made some turnovers down the stretch," Lakers forward 
    James Worthy said. "We played hard to the end and we can build on this 
    loss.  We've kept fighting all the way and we will the rest of the series."
    Divac also said he was encouraged by the Lakers' effort.  "In the first 
    half we missed a lot of shots," Divac said. "But we had a great effort and 
    came back to make it close at the end."
    
    Divac and Sedale Threatt had hit back to back 3-pointers to pull the 
    Lakers to within 101-100 with 1:25 left. Worthy then missed a wide-open
    jumper from inside 15 feet with :47 to play. Suns rookie Oliver Miller 
    grabbed the rebound and was fouled. He converted both free throws for a 
    103-100 lead with :45 to play.
    
    "It wasn't easy at all," Suns Coach Paul Westphal said. "To tell you the 
    truth, I thought this was the Lakers best game of the series. We got our 
    running game going tonight and I think that was the reason we were able to 
    win."  Although the Lakers still lead the series, Los Angeles Coach Randy
    Pfund seemed disappointed they failed to complete a sweep.  "We had the 
    opportunity at a couple of points in the game to go ahead," Pfund said. 
    "But we were not able to do that. It was an opportunity lost.  We still 
    have a difficult task ahead of us. We've got to come back to practice 
    tomorrow and work on some things and then finish this thing off on 
    Thursday."
    
    Barkley keyed a 5-0 Suns' run with a free throw, then a steal from Eldon 
    Campbell and a long pass to the streaking Miller for a layup. He capped 
    the run with a layup off of a missed Suns' shot for a 95-89 Phoenix lead 
    with 5:07 left in the game.  
    
    Divac was forced to leave the game at the 9:24 mark of the 3rd period. He 
    received 5 stitches as the result of a cut received over his right eye, 
    then returned with 3:58 left in the quarter.  The Lakers could get no 
    closer than 5 points during the 3rd quarter.  Mark West's 2 free throws 
    gave the Suns their biggest lead of the second half, 80-66 with 1:52 to 
    play in the third quarter.  Majerle's 3-pointer just beat the buzzer to 
    give the Suns a 85-76 lead entering the final quarter.

During the season I thought that the west was coming close to the east in 
strength. After watching most of the playoff games so far I now have to agree
with Tommy and say the top 3 teams in the east could smoke anybody in the west.

The rockets look like the only team that doesn't have a big well oiled rope
around their necks. The suns are playing like crap, the Sonics are playing like
crap as is San Antonio. Utah (despite being up 2-1 on the sonics) doesn't have 
the talent to come close to matching up w/ the Jordan's, the Knicks or the 
Cavs.

Which brings me to my feelings about the NBA right now. I think I'm going to 
stick to just watching the NFL and MLB for professional sports. The NBA's 
protection of the stars of the league has become too much for me to watch. At
least when you watch MLb or the NFL and you see an official blow a call you know
that they simply blew the call and their was no ulterior motive involved. 
Watching the NBA officials continue to give preferential treatement to some 
players has gone over the edge. I didn't mind it so much when Magic wouldn't
get called for palming the ball or Kareem pushed a little with his free arm 
going up for the sky hook but it's gotten rediculous now.

Utah knows that they only have to stay close for 3 quarters playing the Sonics.
If they do then they know they've got the game in the bag in the 4th. Why?
because all they have to do is give the ball to malone and they are assured of
anywhere between 1 and 3 points every time up the floor. The offense consists
of Malone going into the paint, smashing back whomever is guarding him for 5-6
seconds until he gets position, getting the ball from Stockton and turning 
toward the hoop. 100% of the time he either gets the basket and foul, foul or
basket. No 3 second call ever against him even though he continually spends
7-10 seconds under the hoop. No offensive foul ever called against him. This
is a guy that spends 90% of a game in the paint of offense and defense and NEVER
fouls out. His defense strategy consists of raking at the opposition with full
knowledge that he'll never foul out of a game. 

My favorite quote last night was when the announcers were talking about the
quick hands of Karl Malone while the replay is showing him smashing both
forearms of Derrick McKey jarring the ball loose...no foul..

And the treatement is the same for Barkley, Jordan, ewing and the other 
superstars...The league has gotten out of control compromising the game for 
money. They tolerate NY Thug ball because they want a strong NY franchise, 
they tolerate Jordan gambling and lying because he's the superstar du Jour.
They put up with Barkley assaulting refs because he's big publicity for the
NBA. 

I can't stand to watch it any more.

One ex-nba watcher,

  Metz

>         At this point, I don't think anyone is. Least impressive of all
>        the Suns has to be Dan Majerle. Whether he's chucking bricks at
>        the offensive end or getting smoked at the defensive end or blow-
>        ing crucial free throws in crunch time, Majerle has looked anything
>        but thunderous.    
    
    While he's far from regular season form, I don't think the above is
    entirely accurate.  He was 2-4 from 3-pt land (Ainge was 3-4), had 10
    points (4-8 from the floor), 5 boards, and 5 assists, and held Byron 
    Scott to 6 points (and Byron was averaging 18ppg in the first 2 of the 
    series).  

    "We made up our minds that if we are going to go down, we are going to
    go down by giving it our best shot, which we did not give in Phoenix. 
    I've got the best teammates in the world.  It really made me feel good
    that my teammates went to me.  I love those guys.  They said, 'Hey, we
    won 62 games because of you this year.  If we're going down, we're
    going down with you firing.'" - Sir Charles
    
    "I'm not saying our offense is predicated on the 3-pointer, because we've 
    got a lot of weapons, but it does make a big, big difference.  It's an 
    important counter to our lack of height.  It opens up our offense, and 
    lets us rebound better." - Dan Majerle
    
    "It was a great ball game.  There were 2 things that happened.  I
    thought the Suns responded with a very good effort tonight, you knew
    they would.  They have the best record in basketball.  And I thought we
    matched them, blow for blow.  We had a couple opportunities to go by
    them and were not able to do it.  It's an opportunity lost, but you
    have to look at it from the fact that this is a very good basketball
    team.  Under the best of circumstances, beating them 3 games in a row
    is a very difficult task.  We still have a very difficult task ahead of
    us.  You let a team win a game, you let them into the series.  You want
    to hear the quotes that are going to be around?  'They're back in the
    series.' 'The pressure's on us.' 'They only have to win one on our home
    floor.'  Read the papers from 10 years ago.  It's always the same
    quotes and the same things." - Randy Pfund
    
    "I still don't feel that great about how we played, but we're still
    alive." - KJ
    
    "I thought it was the best game the Lakers played of the series." -
    Paul Westphal
    
    As for the double-technicals called on Worthy and Ceballos:  Worthy
    scolded Ceballos for trash talking after Ced blocked James' shot. 
    Worthy retrieved the ball and scored anyway, pointing to the 6 World
    Championship banners hanging above the Forum.
    
    The Suns showed some flashes of recovery and this is what contributed
    to the win:
    - They outrebounded L.A. for the first time, 45-43.
    - They shot their seasonal FG% for the first time, 49%.  L.A.
      maintained their average of 42% again.
    - The Danny boys resurrected the 3-pt game and the Suns were 6-12 from 
      long distance (2-18 in the first 2 games).  Ainge was 3-4, Majerle 2-4, 
      Barkley 1-4.  Both Danny boys said the Lakers weren't rushing them as
      fast as in the first 2 games and they were getting better looks at
      the basket out there.
    - They forced a faster tempo, used trapping defense, and improved
      rebounding to get their running game jump-started.
    - The play of rookies Miller and Dumas in crunch-time was outstanding. 
      It also kept Chambers on the bench more (only played 5 minutes).
    - A win is a win, no matter how they obtained it.  It should give the
      team some badly needed confidence now.
    
    On the down side:
    - They still tend to lose focus when building large leads.
    - 18 turnovers is far too many against anyone.
    - Suns missed 8 FT's (74%)!  L.A. only missed 5 (77%).
    - Barkley has to start shooting better.  He shot 35% in game 2 and 28%
      last night.  If he starts hitting his average (55%), Phoenix will 
      blow L.A. away.
    - Suns are still only averaging 97ppg, 17ppg down from their average.

    
    I should've TM'd Slumber Dan yesterday.  His defense was OK, a coule
    big steals, but he is no where to be seen on offense.  10 points in 40
    mins., from one of the big offensive guys is not good.
    
    Miller and Dumas carried the team in the 4th quarter.  I was getting
    tired of watching them just throw the ball into Charles and letting him
    go 1 on 1.  People said Cotton didn't have an offense in the half court
    and Westphal/Barkley would fix that.  It ain't fixed. 
    
    The LAkers made their 4th quarter run when KJ was on the bench.  I
    don't know why Westphal doesn't think he can play Ainge and KJ
    together, instead of putting in Slumber Dan to throw away the in bounds
    pass.
    
    brews

Does Paul Westphal have Lou Holtz writing his quotes for him???

The Crazy Met

re.  36.542
    	I essentially came to the same conclusion a few years ago. 
    Ironically one of the most protected players was Bird and the alleged
    rascist comments of Isaiah and Rodman were really comments about
    favored treatment of special stars.
    	Everybody has a particular peeve; mine is the treatment of rookies
    or "poor white trash" (the Kites and Joe Kleines) of the league.
    	Sadly, don't expect the college game to bring relief.  I already
    dropped the information that the NCAA had a major financial stake in
    bringing in big name teams to the final four this year.
    	And pro football tacitly ackowledged the influence of organized
    gambling on the game (fear of same) by pushing replay.  Anvilman is
    worth watching and listening to on this subject (any subject not having
    to do with actual play of any game, there he is a very humble fan).
    	Finally we have pro baseball (I'll leave hockey out - the holding
    lost me in the 70s).  I will have to drop the sport if they go to a
    wildcard, 8 then 12 then 16 team playoffs.  A major league pennant race
    is still the best attraction in all of sports although virtually
    ignored from a marketing point of view because TV producers cannot
    schedule it and therefore sell advertising for it therefore it is a
    waste of time for them therefore it has to be a waste of time for
    everybody.

    Bill who isn't even 90 years old but played baseball games as a child
    which were completely run by kids without an adult in sight - said
    games ran every night of the summer.

    Way oth-Bill
    

    "We have to win 2 games to save the series, they have to win only 1,
    and they've still got 2 chances to do it.  I don't think we shook
    them." - Sir Charles on whether there is pressure on the Lakers
    
    "They're big dudes, and they're ugly.  You'd have to flip a coin to say
    which is uglier." - Sir Charles on Elden Campbell and A.C. Green
    
    "I hadn't seen a Lakers crowd like that since the Bulls finals or the
    Celtics finals.  You know, back in those times." - Magic Johnson on
    Game 3.  Magic also went on to say that he is not pro-L.A.  He
    originally picked Phoenix 3-1 and liked what he saw on Tuesday.  "The
    Suns had a chance to run, and you see what they can do when they run
    the basketball.  They sped the game up, at their pace.  They got a lot
    of dunks and layups, and when that happens, it opens up their 3-point
    game.  So when they're running, it helps everybody out."
    
    "We were willing to try most anything with him.  During the All-Star
    break in February, I gave him these motivational tapes." - Asst. Coach
    Bill Bertka on Vlade Divac's improvement stemming from self-help and
    mystic tapes.  Like, wow, man.  Divac has been in California too long,
    right, dude?  And to think they almost shipped him to Dallas for JJ.
    
    "Hey, there isn't enough hate in the Forum anymore, but that figures. 
    Everybody knows that these people are the best front-running fans in
    basketball.  Hey, that's no secret.  It's a well-known fact."  - Danny
    Ainge on the Hollywood crowd.  Ainge continued his attack on Jack
    Nicholson, "Hey, where was Jack?"  After he was told Jack is in N.Y.
    filming "Wolf", "That's my point.  He'd have readjusted his film
    schedule if these were the Lakers with Magic Johnson.  It's like I
    said: Front-runners, all of 'em."
    
    "Yeah we were just talking about that in practice today.  Somebody
    needs to bring Vlade back to reality because he isn't that good.  I'd
    look for something to happen in Game 4.  I hate L.A." - Thunder Dan
    when told by a fan (call-in radio show) that he needs to dunk over 
    Vlade like he did over Manute Bol in the '88 playoffs.

I got a kick out of this article and thought some of you might too.
Incidentally, what Majerle was asked last night about the NBA's best
trash-talkers, he said, "Larry Bird.  He could back it up though.  He'd tell you
what he was going to do before he did it.  Larry would yell at you, 'I'm
coming off this pick and will shot it from there, and you can't stop it.'  Chuck
Person is another great one.  And just about the whole Knicks team."

"Suns, Lakers play hard, talk cheap" - David Casstevens, Arizona Republic

During the frantic 4th quarter of game 3, Bob Young sat at a courtside table
behind the baseline, head down, pounding out a story on deadline.  "Bob!  Hey,
Bob!" a voice called out.  Young a "Republic" report who covers the Suns, kept
at it, nose to the keyboard, fingers flying.  "BOB!  BOB!"  A photographer
seated beneath the basket turned and tapped Young on the arm.  "Are you Bob?" he
asked, and when Young looked up and nodded, the photographer pointed toward the
court.

Charles Barkley was lined up along the free-throw lane.  "BOB, I'M TALKIN' TO
YOU!"  Barkley shouted, above the crowd noise.  Charles broke into a grin.
"ISN'T THIS FUN!?"

Barkley likes to talk.  During Tuesday night's game, he talked to himself.  He
talked to reporters.  He talked to the referees.  He frequently talked to the
L.A. Lakers, too.  But Barkley isn't alone.  There is a game within the game
going on in this first-round playoff series, and the inner game is becoming more
interesting, and more intense, as the action heats up and the pressure, on both
teams, mounts.

Grown men are talking about each other's mamas.  Cedric Ceballos chided Sedale
Threatt with baby talk.  "Oh, Sedale, did you hurt your widdle eye?" Ceballos
asked the Lakers' guard after Threatt stole the ball from Barkley and Barkley
swung his arm around, accidentally catching his opponent in the face.  As
Threatt gingerly touched the minor wound, and blinked, Ceballos said, with mock
concern, "Sedale, I hope you're all wight."  The morning after, Threatt who
torched the Suns for 35 points in game 1, laughed about the incident.  He didn't
take what Ceballos said personally.

Playful exchanges, and angry ones, are common in the NBA, especially during the
playoffs when talk is cheap and the stakes and emotions are high.  "It's all
fun," Threatt said.  "But it's all serious, too."  Ceballos and James Worthy
engaged in a running - literally - dialogue in game 3, which the Suns won,
107-102.  Ceballos and Worthy know each other well.  They have been involved
together in charity events in L.A. during the off-season.  At times during the
game, they talked as friends talk over lunch, chatting amiably, inquiring about
each other's family.  "Where's your mother sitting?" Worthy asked as they
cantered stride-for-stride up the court.  "She's in Section..." Ceballos
replied.

They went at it, back and forth, to and fro, trading verbal lobs and volleys.
Ceballos blocked Worthy's shot.  Made the Old Man look baaaaad.  Next time
Worthy got the ball, he scored over Ceballos.  The 11-year NBA veteran extended
his long arm and pointed proudly at the Lakers' championship banners above.  "He
was talking about his (championship) rings," Ceballos said of Worthy, who owns
3.

Elden Campbell woofed at Barkley.  A.C. Green communicated wordlessly, fixing
his opponent with a hard defiant glare.  Barkley spoke sweet nothings to Vlade
Divac.  The Lakers' 7-foot-1 center, who warned "we still have a confidence"
going into game 4 tonight, had a few words for Barkley, too.  In Serbian? "No,"
Divac said.  "English.  I wanted heem to understand what I say."  Barkley is
unfazed by the rhetoric.  If anything, he enjoys the repartee.  He also relishes
the hostile reception by Lakers fans whose unflattering 2-word chant suggested
Charles can out-clean an Electrolux.

Danny Ainge fired a shot at Lakers fans.  Ainge called the Forum crowd "the best
front-running fans in the NBA."  Lakers faithful, in turn, are having fun at the
Suns' expense on local radio talk shows.  The line going around is that the Suns
are like a donut - no center - which is news to Oliver Miller, who played well.
So Big O, if you were a donut, what kind would you be?  "Chocolate," Miller
replied.  Why?  "Because," he said, laughing, "I'm a chocolate 'sensation,'
baby."

    BTW - circumstances beyond my control will probably prevent me from
    seeing tonight's game.  Make sure all of you new bandwagon members
    root real hard for the Suns! ;-)

    	Best trash talker I ever saw was Oscar The Grouch on Sesame
    Street.
    
    				/Don

>      I can't imagine what would keep *you* from watching tonight's game.

    
    Suns finally play a convincing quarter, Lakers finally play like a
    39-43 team; last half of the 4th quarter was all Suns. They won
    by 17 or so.
    
    Game 5 in Phoenix on Sunday. Can the Lakers duplicate what the 1984
    Nets did? Its going to be tough.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    	Was worth staying up to see the beautiful people FauxFains who
    dot the floor seats watching the fourth quarter with pouty mouths.
    The way the Fantabulous Forum looked with 2 minutes to go in the
    game could be the way it will look in the not too distant future
    (empty).
    
    				/Don

    The Forum has looked that way all season, /er.  Yesterday was an
    aberration.  Speaking of which, where did the Laker fan(s) in here go?
    
    The Lakers seemed to be rimming out a lot of shots, especially Vlade in
    close, similar to what the Suns were doing in games 1&2.  Can't believe
    they called that T on Miller.  Hopefully, that'll get reviewed.
    
    brews
    
    

>    close, similar to what the Suns were doing in games 1&2.  Can't believe
>    they called that T on Miller.  Hopefully, that'll get reviewed.
    
    ...and a T on KJ at the same time for absolutely nothing.  I thought
    Miller was ejected at first when Scott was shooting 2.

    I thought you weren't going to be able to watch the game, Mike?
    
    brews

    I saw the first quarter, taped the rest while I was out.  I did catch
    most of it on the radio though.  I scanned thru the 2nd half late last
    night after returning home.  

    The scant 500 available seats for Game 5 at America West went on sale by 
    phone orders only today at 8 a.m.  For the 20 minutes or so it took to
    sell the seats, up until about 20 minutes after that, most people in
    the inner-city could not even get a dial tone without trying many times.
    
    When they did this last week for the opening games, they sold 1,000
    tickets in 45 minutes.  The circuits were flooded with over 100,000
    calls in that time to the Suns office.  I can just imagine what Ma
    Bell will say today's numbers were.

    I've never seen anything like it.  I've heard of the particular exchange 
    the ticket outlet is in getting jammed before, but never no dial tone 
    throughout (I assume) the city.  Everyone and his uncle in the valley
    must have been trying to get tickets.

    
    I'm still here .... and the crow is slow-baking. Game 5 should either
    be a barn-burner, or a Suns rout.
    
    God, it'll be good to see a new Lakers team next year that does'nt
    include Byron or Worthy ! Eldon Campbell has STAR potential.
    
    Time will tell !
    
    - acp

    Tell me somethin',
    Not having watched the last two games, is Dan Thunder or still Blunder?
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Memo to ACP: my deepest symathies. Gutsy series that went to OT in game
    5; but ultimately even a poor playing Suns team was too much for a not
    very godd Lakers team. Lakers and Celtics should say the hell with
    pride and get some lottery picks next year.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

heck of a shove by barkley to save the game though....Hopefully the Celtics'
braintrust was watching. Give them time to reflex on Ollie Miller or Stanley
Roberts or.....

mike

    Bottom line is - Lakers sweep with a healthy Peeler.  Don't ever
    forget that fact, Nuns(tm) fans.  It took a cruel twist of fate to
    allow your team to sneak in to the second round.  And if the
    Lakers could force your team to look so disorganized with their minimal
    defensive pressure, what the Spurs do to you won't be pretty.  (Smiley
    goes here)
    
    KJ got hit with a T for kicking Campbell?
    
    Didn't see the game, but it sounds like Pfund or Threatt was to BLAM
    for blowing the last 5 seconds of regulation by not getting the ball
    inside to Divac or Worthy or Campbell.

Let's just say, Oliver Miller saved their butt.  The rest of the team looked
pretty ragged at the end.    I also think the Lakers misplayed the end of
regulation by setting up the Scott heave...

Certainly the Lakers illustrated how to play the Suns.  1. Exploit the center
mismatch.  2. Put a bigger man on Barkley.

1. Divac looked like the second coming of Jabbar with his hook shots.  Miller
   helped stop that, but Mr. Robinson can have some big games here...

2. Campbell looked like the second coming of Michael Cooper with his handling of
   Barkley.  The size mismatch worked for the Lakers most of the series.  He also
   seemed to be quick enough to match Barkley's speed.  Do the Spurs have anyone
   comparable?

   Boy could the Suns use Parish...

   (boy are those guys lucky to draft Miller!!!!  I wish the Celtics tooks the
    same chance)

		Bob Cohen

    Suns can alo thanks some home cooking reffing for yesterday's win. 
    Getting Vlade in foul trouble early gave the Suns the game.  KJ gives
    another cheap shot.  That little dude gets away with murder out there.
    
    
    I must admit smiling a few times - and laughing once - as the announcer
    called James Worthy "big game James" - all I could think of was Mike
    Childs ;-)    Actually Worthy did have quite the game, and was classy
    at the end.
    
    If I was the Spurs, I'd go to Robinson every time down the court.  I'd
    dare
    Miller or West to stop him.   
    
    JD

    
    Suns win, and that's a fact. But HAY SEUSS FREAKIN' CRYMINNY, the
    NBA has got to do sumpin' 'bout those zebras !
    
    Barkley's jam DOES NOT COUNT, and LA wins. Plus Vlade in foul
    trouble, Miller walks EVERY TIME he gets the ball, and West has
    a tent set up in the key (pass the flippin' marshmallows !) ...
    
    Spurs in 5 - you heard it here first. Sorry Mike, but the Suns
    are now completely despicable (and Westphal was my boyhood idol) !
    
    The Showtime-era Lakers are now history ...
    
    - acp

Well having missed the game a few questions:

1. What push by Barkley?? (Mike C's note)

2. What jam by Barkley? (.574)

The Crazy Met

    
    re: Barkley's jam ...
    
    Replay shows the shot clock/buzzer sound before he jams it in, tying
    the game with 5 seconds left.
    
    'Nuff said, refs/NBA want The Buns (tm) to continue on ...
    
    - acp

	Actually there was about 40 seconds left, the Lakers were up by 4.
Lakers defense forces KJ to put up a wild jumper with 2 seconds on the shot
clock. This shot was an air ball that Barkley grabbed and jammed in. The
24 second shot clock buzzer went off just at about this time. The basket
was counted as being good. Slow-mo replay shows that the clock expired while
Barkley still had the ball no basket. It was to close to call even the
annoucers couldn't make up there mind. When watching in real time.
	Suns stop Lakers on the trip down the floor. After a Suns timeout,
the suns come out and Thunder Dan hits an 18' off balance jump shot with
15 seconds left to tie the game. Lakers call timeout to setup a play.
Threat dribbles the clock down to 3 seconds, starts to drive to the hoop and
then passes to a wide open Scott. Scott takes his 3pt shot, and it comes up
short and game goes into OT. Where Oliver Miller had a great OT and the
Suns built an 8 pt lead quickly.
	Pfund played the end of regulation to conservative. To me, it looked
like the jump shot by Scott was the play. They didn't try and go instead to
Worthy or Vlade. It was almost as if Pfund was thinking we can't leave anytime
on the clock for the Suns. To hit a last second heave to win the game. It
was just a bad play for the Lakers at the end of the game. 

/Ron 

Lakers were up 95-93 when I think KJ put up a shot. Eldon Campell had
great posistion for the rebound and then suddenly ended up 4 feet out of 
bounds with the ball going off of him. Results: Suns posession and Marjele 
hit the game tying shot....Barkley was standing behind Campell before he ended
up out of bounds...

mike

    
    The Barkley tip in happened with about 2 minutes left.  The hit a 15
    foot turnaround jumper with about 45 seconds left to bring the Suns
    within 2.  Couldn't figure out why Pfund went to Scott, either.
    
    I like Buckner's explanation of why Chunder Dan was in the hospital.
    
    brews

Because Scott has hit that shot a few times for game winners in his career
I imagine and you knew was going to get a free look at it. Probably, though
he was the second option and Threat opted for that over option 1 cause 
Jimmy Clang was doubled up....Yeah JD, eveerytime they said BGJ, I thougth
of my buddy Dan smiling at me and it made it worst...Gotta admit he did
have a great game, but pale in comparision to Mchale's swan song...

;^)

    Hey walt - what's the penalty for perjury in NOTES?  ;-)
    
    BTW, nobody can convince me that the Celtics made a mistake in drafting
    Jon Barry over Oliver Miller!  many ;-)
    
    NAZZ

    I didn't lie under oath..., you mean plagiurism? (sp?)  I don't know,
    maybe one less note in the Celtics notesfile?  (haha)
    

    I haven't seen so much whining and crying since the Suns whupped the
    Lakers 4-1 in 1990.

>    He didn't even get the T, right?  That's when Pfund kicked the scorer's
>    table in protest.  Unless they finally did ring KJ up, because
    
    KJ got the T, Pfund didn't, go figure.  KJ even demonstrated the
    technique to his teammates in the huddle during the timeout.  Anyone
    that thinks KJ kicked Smith is blind and a wuss.
    
    Bottom line is - Suns sweep with a healthy KJ.  Doen't ever 
    forget that fact, Fakers(tm) fans.  It took a cruel twist of fate to
    allow your team to win a game in the first round.  I can only hope the
    Spurs make the same mistake because they don't have the matchup
    capability and will get run out of the building.  It won't be pretty.
    (Smiley goes here)
    
    The Suns had their wakeup call and should use the experience as a
    springboard to go deep into the playoffs.
    
    Mike

    I didn't see it, I just asked...
    

    >KJ got the T, Pfund didn't, go figure.  KJ even demonstrated the
    >technique to his teammates in the huddle during the timeout.  Anyone
    >that thinks KJ kicked Smith is blind and a wuss.
    
    What do you want them to do?  Say, "Ok, Kevin, you're right, hey guys,
    never mind the Technical..."?

    
    Well, it looked to me that KJ was just freeing his foot, albeit in an
    emphatic, demonstrative fashion.  I didn't see the attempt to create
    any contact which would merit the technical.
    
    Maybe I also didn't see the fully clarifying replay on the
    supposed Barkley 24-second violation either.  The one they kept showing 
    on ESPN had a freeze frame of Barkley with the ball above the rim about 
    .01 seconds from getting slammed through, with one tick left on the 
    24-second clock.  Or at least that's what it looked like.  Damn near
    simultaneous with buzzer, on a call that has to go one way or the other.
    
    Gotta say one thing, though.  The Suns really pulled off a couple of
    outrageously difficult plays, under the circumstances, in those final
    two possessions.  I don't think they want to cut those possessions so
    close the next time they're under the gun like that.  Majerle certainly
    vindicated himself to a degree by nailing a tightly contested twisting 
    jumper in the clutch like that.  How many of you thought *that* was
    going in?
    
    glenn
     

First there was Broadway Joe. Now meet Paul the Prophet.  While not quite on
the level of Joe Namath's guarantee of a N.Y. Jets victory in Super Bowl
III, coach Paul Westphal's prediction of 3 straight Phoenix victories may
eventually loom as large if the Suns win their first NBA title.  The Suns
rewrote the NBA history books once again by becoming the first team ever to win
a 5-game series after dropping the first 2 games at home.  The huge test the
Lakers presented may be a blessing in disguise.  Hopefully, it will serve as a
springboard to launch them deep into the playoffs.

Rookie Oliver Miller was immense as he scored 9 of his 17 points in OT, giving
the Suns a 112-104 triumph over L.A. and capping an improbable 3-game comeback
to win the series.  The Suns now move into a 2nd-round meeting against the
San Antonio, starting tomorrow night in here.

"I'm very humble to be able to win this," said Westphal. "I think we had
the better team and I've seen this team fight all year and I thought we had a
lot of fight in us."  It was exactly a week ago, after the Suns lost the
first 2 games of the best-of-5 series at home, that Westphal made his
prediction.  "Are we dead? No," he said after the Suns took an 86-81 loss.
"We're going to win this series ... We'll come back here and win Game 5 and
everybody will say what a great series it was."  Destiny's darlings pulled it
off, but not before testing the faith of the 19,023 at America West Arena.

With L.A. leading 95-91, Charles Barkley dunked an alley-oop with 57 seconds
left.  Given that the officials had to make this call in realtime, you really
can't fault them.  After a Sedale Threatt miss at the Lakers' end, Thunder Dan
drained an off-balance 19-footer with 13.6 seconds showing to tie it.  "Kevin
(Johnson) did a great job of finding me," said Majerle, who finished with 19
points despite spending Saturday night in the hospital with a severe bout of
the flu. "I just let it go. It was a tough shot, but it went in."  However,
the Lakers still had one shot left. Threatt started to drive, then dished to
Byron Scott for a 3-point attempt that clanged off the front of the rim.  "I
had a good look at it," Scott said. "I just didn't get it when I wanted to
and had to rush it a little bit. I knew it was going to be short."

Westphal cracked: "They didn't exactly make (the prediction) come true
easily, but I didn't say anything about that."  The OT, however, wasn't a 
contest thanks to Miller, whose weight problems limited his playing time
during the regular season.  "He has overcome a lot," Westphal said of
his rookie that is 40 pounds lighter.  "We painted him a picture midway
through the year of him being a big part of us in the playoffs, how exciting
it would be and how much we needed him. He responded and I think the young man
deserves -- I'm not going to say a ton of credit -- a lot of credit."  Miller
opened the OT with a short bank shot, then followed his own miss with another
bucket.  He then grabbed a rebound on a Lakers miss, leading to 2 Barkley free
throws, and 2 possessions later blocked a Vlade Divac shot that led to a Suns
fast break. After KJ hit 1 of 2 free throws, Phoenix held a 102-95 lead with
2:37 left and L.A. never got closer than 4 thereafter.

"My role is defense but if I've got an open shot, I'm not going to back down,"
said Miller, who added 14 rebounds and 7 blocked shots. Barkley added: "We
knew all season (Miller) was going to be tremendous in our playoff plan.
That's why we've been on him throughout the year. There were a lot of times he
wanted to give up, but we stayed on him. All the anxiety he caused us, he's
making up for now."

Barkley led the Suns with 31 points and 14 rebounds, while KJ finished
with 24 points and 13 assists. Majerle, who entered the game hitting just 32%
of his shots, had 19 points on 8-for-13 shooting, including 3 3-pointers.  "I
was never worried about my shot," Majerle said. "I think I got better shots
today. But I don't think it's such a big deal that I have to score for this
team to win."  Maybe not, but Westphal was awed by his all-star's
determination.  "Dan Majerle was sick as a dog," the coach said. "He was
throwing up all night, and we weren't sure he could play. He had an IV stuck in
his body about an hour before the game. It was pretty bad news. But it's Dan
Majerle and there's no way you're going to keep him from playing."

James Worthy led the Lakers with 24 points off the bench, including 15 in the
4th quarter and OT. It was Worthy's 3 straight buckets -- including a 3-pointer
-- that allowed L.A. to tie the game 87-87 midway through the 4th quarter.  "I
felt like I could make a contribution," said Worthy, who often demanded the
ball down the stretch. "A lot of times you let it slide, but this time I felt
if I was going to make a contribution, I had to call for it."  Sedale Threatt
added 18 points for L.A., Elden Campbell had 17 and A.C. Green finished with
15 points and 19 rebounds.

"Charles Barkley used the description of it being like a boxing match and it
was a championship fight in the first round. And I don't think many people
expected anything but an early knockout or a quick decision," Lakers coach
Randy Pfund said. "Our guys played great and we had a couple of opportunities
to win it and it just didn't happen."  The Lakers trailed 78-71 after 3
quarters, but used an 8-2 run late in the 4th period that appeared to doom
the Suns.  Worthy tied the game 91-91 on a 20-foot jumper with 2:08 remaining
and Campbell gave the Lakers the lead on a putback dunk with 1:30 left.  After
a Suns timeout and a Barkley miss, Threatt drove the lane uncontested for a
layup and a 95-91 advantage with 1:08 left.  "I'm sure (the Lakers) are
heartbroken that they couldn't pull it out. They played well," Majerle said.
"I think we really dodged a bullet just before the overtime."

Quotes
------
"The Lakers and Celtics are the proudest teams in the league.  The Lakers played
with a lot of pride." - Sir Charles

"I came out slow and it backfired.  I didn't want to be overemotional and tired
by halftime." - Sir Charles on his slow start

"They told us to win it all." - Sir Charles on post-game comments by the Lakers.

But Broadway Joe made his comments when his team was a heavy underdog in the
CHAMPIONSHIP game. Westphal made it about the best team in the league who
played like a Junior HS team against the worst team in the playoffs.

The Crazy Met

    	Hey MikeH, let's see Westy make that prediction against the
    Bulls then back it up.  If they get that far that is...
    
    				/Don

>       He sure did a get a T. A much deserved T. Weren't nothing to it 
>       because he didn't really connect. Luckily becuase there was an
>       obvious intent to injure. It appeared to me that KJ was aimin'
>       for the medulla oblongata and missed. As for the wuss glasses - 
    
    You're as biased against the best all-around point guard in the NBA as
    I am biased for.  Glen's honorable unbiased observation vindicates me, 
    what's your excuse?
    
    As for the blasphemy, there isn't any in admitting your team has some
    weaknesses.  You're just po'ed that you won't get to rag on me until at
    least another series is over.
    
    And I said up front the Broadway Joe analogy was a stretch, but it will
    be a landmark if they go and win it all.
    
    "They used to have major problems matching up with us.  Now that they
    have Barkley, that's no longer true.  He's changed the whole face of
    the West.  We have some advantages over them.  They have some advantages 
    over us.  The team that exploits those advantages the most will win the 
    series." - Tucson native and All-Star forward, Sean Elliott on the 
    upcoming series.
    
    Mike

      That was no ally oop

    The Barkley slam was a biggie, at real time speed I think every suns
    fan said it was good and of course every anti-sun or pro laker fan
    said NO GOOD.  But the refs are suppose to be neutral and had to make
    the call at real time speed while watching everything else on the floor
    at the same time.  Was it the right call, not important the call was
    made on the floor during the action.  If you went back to the reply for
    every call I be that there were 4 or 5 calls at least that went in
    favor of the lakers.
    
    The KJ Technical was rediculous at best.  He was trying to get his foot
    free and pulled out, I couldnt beleive that they actually called a Tech
    on that play ????
    
    The better team (Proving by there record) won this series.  The lakers
    played a better series but it still wasnt enough.  The west turned out
    to be pretty exciting so far, no real upsets anywhere (yet).
    
    Did Seattle win last night ???

 Seattle 99  Houston  90.....

 what I did manage to stay awake for was a decent game. Perkins is much
 more valuable to this team than Benoit....

 Oh Boy another week of Barkley comments to look forward too...

 mike

>       I don't need anybody to vindicate me. I know what I saw and what 
    
    That's okay Tommy.  You're outnumbered by unbiased observers on this
    one.
    
    >   You weren't admitting any such thing all season long. All I heard
>       you admitting all year was that Phoenix was the best team in the
>       NBA. But now that they've been severely tested by a team that didn't
>       even deserve to be in the playoffs you're having a crisis of faith.
>       And rightfully so, I might add. I ain't seen a 60 win team that
>       stanky since the early Mets.
    
    And they proved they were the NBA's best this year.  As Walt Frazier
    recently said, "All teams that went on to win the championship go through 
    tough tests in the opening rounds."
    
    The Lakers are being underrated in a sense here.  I saw it as the Lakers 
    presenting matchup problems with the Suns' frontline.  The Suns can play 
    the halfcourt or control game, but only when Charles is hitting his shots.  
    He wasn't doing that for the majority of the L.A. series.  The Suns were 
    then forced to run to use their quickness to offset L.A.'s size.  They
    didn't always do that properly either.  These facts coupled with L.A.'s
    playoff experience explains why they gave Phoenix such a good test. 
    It's sort of like the old fire horse that rejuvenates himself at the
    ring of the bell.  It was playoff time and Worthy, Scott, and Green
    were motivated.  That shouldn't be a problem in the Spurs series for 
    these reasons:
    
    1. The Spurs are also a running team, but the Suns are the best
       running team in the NBA.  It will play into Phoenix's hands.
    2. The Spurs don't present the same problems along the frontline
       outside of Robinson.  Additionally, West and Miller typically play
       the Admiral well.
    3. Antoine Carr simply can't stop Charles.  He doesn't have the height
       or quickness of Elden Campbell.  Charles lit him up all year. 
       Likewise for J.R. Reid.
    4. Sean Elliott has always played poorly in front of his family and 
       friends here over his career.  Even if he suddenly breaks that
       string, the production of Phoenix's small forwards will wash out his
       effort.
    5. Spurs will only be seeing KJ for the 1st time since February (and
       that was the only time they saw him all year).  Suns will only be
       seeing Willie Anderson for the 2nd time this year (1st time was a
       couple weeks ago when Phoenix beat them without Barkley).  Given
       this, the Suns won the season series 3-1, and it took 6 men for the
       Spurs to win that 1 game in OT.
    
>       Why Mikey as long as we've known each other, you know I'd never enter 
>       a note with the sole intention of getting under your skin. And if 
    
    ;-)  Mr.T would be proud of your baiting techniques.

    
>    And they proved they were the NBA's best this year.  As Walt Frazier
>    recently said, "All teams that went on to win the championship go through 
>    tough tests in the opening rounds."
    
 When did they prove it? I haven't seen it? Has anyone else seen it?
 Walt's statement is a joke. I'll bet most champs have won the championship
 with 5 total losses or less and the majority of those 5 losses came in
 rounds two and three. Round 4 usually sees the East spanking the West
 badly.......

 mike

    	MikeC, the Knicks were extended to seven games by the then
    Baltimore Bullets, in the first round, when they won their first 
    championship (dynasty) in 1970.
    
    				/Don

    Hasn't Walt Frazier ever heard of "Fo-fo-fo"?
    
    NAZZ

    More points to consider on all the fuss about the Barkley alley-oop at 
    the end of the game and KJ's technical for freeing his leg from Smith's 
    scissor lock:
   
    The NBA rule states that the 24 second clock decisions on the floor will 
    be made by the sound of the buzzer, NOT THE DISPLAY OF THE CLOCK!!! The 
    refs cannot watch the clock *AND* the release of the shot.  So NBC's stop 
    frame replays MEAN NOTHING!!!  When you play back that sequence of events 
    at full speed (with SOUND), Barkley released the shot prior to the buzzer 
    sounding.  By NBA rules, that was the correct call by the ref.

    As for KJ, it was obvious that he was also protecting his knee (the one
    with the brace) by freeing his leg and not trying to kick anyone.  That
    was a cheapshot by Smith for trying to take KJ out by damaging his knee
    again.
    
    Finally, Barkley and KJ are leading all playoff participants in
    rebounds and assists per game, respectively.
    
    Mike

>    The NBA rule states that the 24 second clock decisions on the floor will 
>    be made by the sound of the buzzer, NOT THE DISPLAY OF THE CLOCK!!! The 
>    refs cannot watch the clock *AND* the release of the shot.  So NBC's stop 
>    frame replays MEAN NOTHING!!!  When you play back that sequence of events 
>    at full speed (with SOUND), Barkley released the shot prior to the buzzer 
>    sounding.  By NBA rules, that was the correct call by the ref.
 
    I've never understood this "explanation", courtesy of the marketing-
    savvy NBA.  Aren't the clock display and the buzzer synchronized?  And
    even accounting for the speed of sound, if the buzzer is located
    anywhere near the court, shouldn't the display and the buzzer be one
    and the same?  Or are we dealing with a more metaphysical realm in
    which on a particular home team's floor, a buzzer doesn't make a sound
    until a NBAfantasketball ref says it does?  It all sounds like a way to
    take the instant replay heat off da refs in a touchy situation, to me...
    
    glenn
    

Love that imagery Tommy.

The Crazy Met

    How do you underrate a team that finished below .500 and had a worse
    home record than away record?  Did they make a late season rush?
    
    Destiny kept the buzzer from sounding and Barkley from goaltending.
    
    
    

Please Walt anything but the D word.

The Crazy Met

    
    When there is .5 seconds left does the 24 second clock display 0 or 1?
    
    

    1

    It's interesting to note that Oliver Miller has lost 70lbs. since he
    was drafted, 40lbs. since February (when hospitalized).  He has a
    target of 20-30 to go.  I'm starting to wonder if there's another
    Charles Barkley under all that poundage ;-)  A lot of teams missed the
    boat on that draft pick, but not many could afford the gamble.  It does
    take a special effort by all concerned to motivate that type of weight
    loss.
    
    It also shows that there's hope for 'Saw and Jake ;-)
    
    Mike

    
    There were times tonight when the Suns looked great. Other times they
    again looked out of sync. Suns hang on to win by 9. They had
    a 14 point lead in the first that dwindled to 1 just before half time.
    They also lost a large lead late in the 4th.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    How did Anderson get hurt in the 1st quarter?  I missed it...
    

>    It also shows that there's hope for 'Saw and Jake ;-)
    
You know, it's funny, but when I caught the game the other night I was
thinking the same thing to myself -- if he can lose THAT much weight,
I can get down to 220 if I want to....8^)


'Saw

    	RE: Alleged Barkley goaltend
    
    	You know I think that a diagram of the play in question would
    help resolve the dispute.  Visual aids are such an invaluable tool.
    Walt?  MikeH?  How about it?
    
    				/Don

    Didn't see the play except for the national feed highlights, so I
    probably would mess it all up...  
    
     --
    |00| <- clock
    -----
   |    o\    Is it in his hand?  Hard to say... tough call...
     ---  \O
      _  34   <- Barkley
         / \

    Walt wants to be a police sketch artist when he grows up!  ;-)
    
    NAZZ

>     a team the caliber of the Lakers! He's a hoss alright! I bet there's a
>     whole buncha GMs just a cryin' themselves to sleep lately.
>           thought provoking, hard-hitting news programs - does anyone
>           know how I can get to be an audience member on "Amazing Disc-
>           overies"? I've been practicing my "ooohs" and "aaahs" lately
    
    Especially since he was drafted after Jon "I'm my 2nd favorite player"
    Barry.  You really should get out more, Tommy.

>     Why the hell do they call him Thunder Dan? 
    
    Because when he was a Central Michigan Chippewah, there was a guy
    called "Lightning" that was Mr. Outside.  Majerle was Mr. Inside and
    dubbed "Thunder" by the campus faithful to complete the tandem.

    
    I'm kinda proud of the moniker "Chunder Dan" after his performance in
    front of the toilet bowl Sunday morning.
    
    brews

    Barkley finally has an awesome game. Suns played a good game, though
    they really are pushing their luck by letting teams cut large leads
    late in the 4th.
    
    2-0 Suns lead. In this round the home teams are 8-0; maybe they learned
    their lessons from round 1.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Of course, you could say the Knicks are pushing their luck too by
    falling behind big in every game, but I agree with ya.  I didn't see
    the game, but here are the keys:
    
    - Suns win 109-103, but had a 12-16 point lead most of the game.  The
      lead was trimmed in the 4th with 5 minutes left to 6 with the starters
      on the bench.  Westy was trying to rest everyone for the back-to-back
      games this weekend.
    - Charles has a monster game of 34 points, 10 boards, 4 assists, 3
      blocks (including back-to-back rejections of Carr and the Admiral), and 
      7 steals (a new Suns' playoff record).  He had 14 points after the 
      1st quarter.  The old steal record was set by Kyle Macy in '84
      against the Blazers.
    - Robinson led San Antonio with 27 points and 10 rebounds, while Del
      Negro scored all of his 19 points in the second half.
    - Thunder Dan scored 18 points for the Suns, KJ added 15 points and 12 
      assists, Dumas contributed 12 points.
    - Suns shot 54% from the floor and broke 50% for the first time this 
      postseason.
    
    Suns need to improve their FT shooting, especially for the road games.
    They've now won 5 in a row in postseason.
    
    Mike

    Speaking of feigns, it's hard to believe that many tickets are still
    available for the San Antonio games, but hotel rooms are next to 
    impossible to find.  The Suns made their reservations 2 weeks ago and 
    have to stay 30 minutes outside the city.  Besides Sea World, the theme 
    amusement park, and the Alamo, there's a national urology convention going 
    on and they're opening up their new 60,000 seat dome.
    
    Mike

>    amusement park, and the Alamo, there's a national urology convention going 
>    on and they're opening up their new 60,000 seat dome.

I've heard of a 2 seater before but 60,000!

Or is this just another LDUC?

TTom

    Series is tied at 2. Spurs won yesterday and today. Game 5 back in
    Pheonix; if SA can steal a game in Phoenix ...
    
    The Crazy Met
    

{Reader's Digest versions}
Game 3
------
The Suns came out lethargic in this one and the Spurs were rejuvenated by the
home crowd.  I can't tell if the team is tired or if they just like to make
things interesting.  Either way, some homecooking is in order.

Antoine Carr scored 21 points and Dale Ellis added 20 to lead the Spurs. Sean
Elliott, proved he can at least play at home, added 17 points and Avery
Johnson contributed 12 points, 15 assists, 8 rebounds and 5 steals.

It's not a good sign when KJ leads in scoring and he did in both weekend games.
He had 26 points and Sir Charles added 22 points and 14 rebounds.  Barkley's
shot only shows up on alternate games and causes problems for the Suns offense.

Suns reduced the Admiral to a non-factor but couldn't take advantage of it.
They need to let him get his points and shut down the rest.  Not sure why they
changed that strategy in the first place.  Majerle and Ainge continued to
impersonate bricklayers.

Game 4
------
The Suns waited to succumb to their lethargy until after halftime.  Then they
decided to give Robinson his points and everyone else in the Spurs cast as well.
Robinson scored 36 points, Willie Anderson had a few prayers answered.  KJ led
in scoring again, not good.  He needs to have double figures in assists, not
points.  He had 26 while Sir Charles bricked 18.  Charles had 13 points and 8
boards at the half, but someone forgot to tell him to come out for the 2nd half.

The Suns were given an early Christmas present when nemesis Antoine Carr went
down.  It appears he's gone for the series.  Unfortunately, they couldn't
capitalize on it.  They really lack the killer instinct.

At least Majerle and Ainge made a few jumpers and treys in this game.  Not
nearly as many needed to open things up though.  The inside play is too
tentative.  Dumas won't pass the ball, even when he should.  All of them are
finessing the ball instead of jamming it.  The Spurs are just rejecting their
finger rolls.

The only positive is that the Suns were in both games until late in the 4th
despite their terrible play.  My gut feeling is that the Suns can still win
this in 6 games.  Sean Elliott will return to his horrid ways in front of his
family here.  Carr is gone.  Give Robinson his 30 points and clamp down on the
rest.  The table is set, all they have to do is come and dine to their heart's
content.

Mike

X-rays on Carr's ankle showed no broken bones. He's day to day and for
Tuesday's game, he's listed as doubtful.

TTom

    Well it sure hurt to watch it.  Carr left the game in Q1.  After going
    up for a board, came down on the side of his ankle -> severe sprain.
    
    Suns should've capitalized on that yesterday with him out of there. 
    Media reports say he's done for the series, we'll find out tomorrow.
    
    Mike

How bad were the Suns? JR Reid stepped up when Carr went down.

TTom

      The Suns looked terrible.  Barkley looks confused for a lack of a
    better term.
    
      Tim

    Ouch, that hurt!  

Well Ithink that Barkley's problem is the fault of the 76'ers - why not
everything else was last year. See 76'ers weren't in the playoffs the
last year or 2 so Sir Charles never had to elevate his game beyond
the humdrum, don't matter regular season.

HtH

The Crazy Met