Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    The Patriots are meeting expectations.
    
    Mark.

    The Red Sox just hired another skipper.
    
    Mark.

    The Bruins are locked out.
    
    Mark.

    The Celtics need a pre-season win.
    
    Mark.

    BC should beat Rutgers.
    
    Mark.

    UMASS has a PR crisis on their hands.
    
    Mark.

    The World Cup Soccer tourney was boring.
    
    Mark.

    Will there ever be a Mega-plex in Boston?
    
    Mark.

    Ted Kennedy is going down.
    
    Mark.

>
>    Ted Kennedy is going down.
>    


On who?

  Ok, 8 out of 9, not bad.

  With regard to the mega-complex, the Mayor of Boston Tom Maninno has come up
with another proposal for a less expensive convention center in the fan peer
area on C street a couple blocks from Anthony's Peer 4, the noname restaurant,
etc. The proposal would NOT include a stadium. I think the price was somewhere
around $440,000,000.

  With the Patriots ownership problem now solved and the team staying in the
area it appears the rush to build them a new stadium down town is over. At
least for now.

  George

    Hook, line and sinker.

    I think he meant into the Chapaquitic(sp?)

  LOOK OUT, POLITICS!!!!!

  Is Mitt short for Mitten?

  HA HA, the Moderators weren't fast enough.

  George  

    Please leave the junk outta here...this is for serious sports
    discussion.
    
    Mark.

    Wrasslin' is a mainly sport.
    
    Mark.

This weekend, they is having a wooly worm race up the road. I guess if'n
you got horse and dog racing, not to mention car racing, then this has
gotta be a sport.

BTW, FWIW, the firsted wooly worm I seen this season was real big and all
black. It should be a cold 'un this winter. Just like the World Weekly
News says the Bible said.

TTom

 unless of course said name wrestler is Hulk Hogan. Then it's just an act.
 "I won't wrestler Vadar unless he signs not to hurt me" - HH

  One good thing about no hockey is that I haven't had to see Harry whinning.

  I don't think I'll miss major league baseball.

 mike

    Markey Mark tries to lift his image by associating hisself with da Daid
    and is shot down by diehards like Karen...

 nope Undertaker is still a hot commodity in the WWF. Rumors say he'll be the
 next champ after the natural 1 week championship rule of the dark hat that
 dethrones the Hitman.........

 mike

    None.  Zilch.  Nada.  Zip.

    >    Discuss.

    Hey, even I have my Lithuanian Olympic hoop shirt...
    

    When oh when will the Worcester ICECATS win a game????????

    Hey,Mark did you watch the 1990 worldcup tournament in Italy?
    If you didnt then support your remark.I think it was fun.
        
    
                      mike.

Major league franchise values

   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   
   Total values for all major league franchises (Major League Baseball,
   NFL, NBA and NHL) in North America as appraised in a study by
   Financial World magazine, which also equated the change in
   percentage (Note: Toronto and Vancouver are not listed in NBA). All
   figures in millions:
   
   BASEBALL

Franchise                  1996 1995 Change
New York Yankees           209  185   +13
Baltimore Orioles          168  164   +2
Atlanta Braves             163  120   +36
Toronto Blue Jays          152  146   +4
Los Angeles Dodgers        147  143   +3
Chicago White Sox          144  152   -5
Boston Red Sox             143  143    0
Chicago Cubs               140  135   +3
Texas Rangers              138  157   -12
Colorado Rockies           133  117   +13
New York Mets              131  134   -2
Cleveland Indians          125  103   +21
San Francisco Giants       122  102   +19
St. Louis Cardinals        112  110   +2
Detroit Tigers             106  83    +28
Philadelphia Phillies      103  96    +8
Cincinnati Reds             99  84    +18
Florida Marlins             98  92    +6
Houston Astros              97  92    +6
Oakland Athletics           97 101    -4
Seattle Mariners            92  76    +21
California Angels           90  88    +2
Kansas City Royals          80  96    -17
Minnesota Twins             74  80    -8
Milwaukee Brewers           71  75    -5
Montreal Expos              68  76    -11
San Diego Padres            67  74    -9
Pittsburgh Pirates          62  70    -11

   
   
   NBA

Franchise               1996  1995  Change
New York Knicks          205  173   +18
Phoenix Suns             191  156   +22
Detroit Pistons          185  180   +3
Chicago Bulls            178  166   +7
Los Angeles Lakers       171  169   +1
Cleveland Cavaliers      151  133   +13
Utah Jazz                142  127   +11
Portland Trail Blazers   137  132   +4
Boston Celtics           134  127   +5
Seattle SuperSonics      129  119   +9
San Antonio Spurs        126  110   +15
Orlando Magic            122  101   +21
Houston Rockets          116   95   +23
Sacramento Kings         114  108   +6
Golden State Warriors    114   93   +23
Charlotte Hornets        113  110   +3
Washington Bullets       113   96   +17
Minnesota T-wolves       110   99   +11
New Jersey Nets          108   92   +17
Milwaukee Bucks          103   92   +12
Denver Nuggets           103   88   +17
Miami Heat                97   88   +10
Atlanta Hawks             97   84   +16
Indiana Pacers            94   77   +22
Philadelphia 76ers        93   81   +15
Dallas Mavericks          89   81   +10
Los Angeles Clippers      89   87   +3

   
   
   NFL

Franchise               1996  1995  Change
Dallas Cowboys           272  238   +14
Miami Dolphins           214  186   +15
Baltimore Ravens         201  163   +23
San Francisco 49ers      196  186   +5
St. Louis Rams           193  153   +26
Philadelphia Eagles      192  182   +5
Buffalo Bills            188  172   +9
Kansas City Chiefs       188  172   +9
New Orleans Saints       184  171   +7
Washington Redskins      184  151   +22
Chicago Bears            184  161   +14
New York Giants          183  168   +9
Cincinnati Bengals       171  137   +24
San Diego Chargers       169  153   +10
Minnesota Vikings        167  154   +9
Atlanta Falcons          167  156   +7
Green Bay Packers        166  154   +8
Arizona Cardinals        166  155   +7
New England Patriots     165  151   +9
Denver Broncos           164  150   +9
Tampa Bay Bucs           164  151   +8
Oakland Raiders          162  145   +12
Houston Oilers           159  158   0
Seattle Seahawks         154  152   +2
Pittsburgh Steelers      154  144   +7
New York Jets            153  149   +3
Detroit Lions            150  141   +7
Jacksonville Jaguars     145  --    --
Indianapolis Colts       145  134   +8
Carolina Panthers        133  --    --

   
   
   NHL

Franchise               1996  1995  Change
Detroit Red Wings        126  124   +2
Chicago Blackhawks       122  102   +19
New York Rangers         118  108   +10
Boston Bruins            111  106   +4
Philadelphia Flyers      102   85   +19
Anaheim Ducks             99  108   -9
Toronto Maple Leafs       96   90   +6
Vancouver Canucks         91   87   +5
Montreal Canadiens        86   86   0
Los Angeles Kings         78   81   -3
San Jose Sharks           77   66   +17
Pittsburgh Penguins       76   75   +1
St. Louis Blues           74   69   +7
Washington Capitals       70   59   +18
Buffalo Sabres            65   60   +9
New York Islanders        60   53   +14
New Jersey Devils         58   54   +8
Ottawa Senators           56   56   +1
Calgary Flames            54   50   +9
Dallas Stars              53   50   +6
Tampa Bay Lightning       48   55   -12
Colorado Avalanche        47   49   -4
Florida Panthers          45   47   -3
Edmonton Oilers           42   42    0
Hartford Whalers          40   43   -6
Winnipeg Jets             34   35   -4

Po', po' Marge.  Franchise value only up 18% in spite of her...

I've seen a couple of these and there's some interesting numbers.

Locally, the Panthers are the least valued NFL team mostly cause they
din't even play in their own stadium lasted year. They'll be in the new
Charlotte stadium, replete with luxury boxes, etc. Also, along with the
Jaqwires, they din't get to share in paraphernalia sales. This will go up
sharply nexted year.

The Bugs have actually lost value over a couple of years ago. Most
significanlty, they've gone from one of the more valuable NBA franchises
to middle of the road. Kinda like working for the same wages for a while
and watching the standard of living go up while you're parked.

Here's the top 5. The Ravens are in some big league company.

Dallas Cowboys           272  238   +14
Miami Dolphins           214  186   +15
New York Yankees         209  185   +13
New York Knicks          205  173   +18
Baltimore Ravens         201  163   +23
 
TTom

    
      Of course, the Ravens high value is almost completely based on
     their stadium deal.

and speaking of a new stadium, you gotta believe the Niners will want to
make some move.

They're slipping from the top to the also ran.

TTom

      Speaking of Shott, did anyone read the Tank cartoon today?  I was
    crackin' up...
    
      Tim

Speakin' of Marge, from what I heard she put her foot in it again yesterday.

"Hitler is my pal, Hitler is my friend" or something like that.

Turns out she still has that swaztika arm band and acutally volunteered
that she's big on Hitler's bandwagon.

I just found what she really said about Ol' Adolph: 

	"Everybody knows he was good at the beginning,
	 but he just went too far."

TTom

>
>Turns out she still has that swaztika arm band and acutally volunteered
>that she's big on Hitler's bandwagon.
>

I wouldn't have a problem with that IF she was doing it from a memorabilia
collector type viewpoint.  (I have a friend that has a collection of military
memorabilia -- my favorite is his Blue Max medal)  But I don't think she's
doing it for that reason.

>I just found what she really said about Ol' Adolph: 
>
>	"Everybody knows he was good at the beginning,
>	 but he just went too far."

Man, she's a piece of work.  

Here's the whole thang:

   ESPNET SportsZone | The Wire
   
              SCHOTT SAYS HITLER STARTED "GOOD" IN ESPN INTERVIEW
                                       
   Monday, May 6 9:52am ET
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Cincinnati Reds owner Marge Schott's reputation took another
   self-inflicted hit when she praised the start of Adolph Hitler's
   campaign as German chancellor in an ESPN interview.
   
   "Everything you read, when he came in, he was good," Schott said in a
   taped interview with ESPN's Sal Paolantonio that aired Sunday night.
   "They built tremendous highways and got all the factories going. But
   then he went nuts, he went berserk, I guess. .... But everybody in
   history knows he was good at the beginning, but he just went too far."
   
   
   The outspoken Schott had made similar comments in a November, 1992
   interview with the New York Times in which she was quoted as saying
   Hitler "was good in the beginning."
   
   In February, 1993, Schott was suspended from baseball and fined
   $25,000 and was made to go through sensitivity training for using
   ethnic and racial slurs.
   
   She also admitted to keeping a Nazi armband that she says was given to
   her by a World War II veteran.
   
   At the start of this season, Schott was quoted as saying she was upset
   that opening day had to be postponed because of the death of umpire
   John McSherry. Later, she was accused of sending recycled flowers to
   the umpire's room as an apology.

Obviously Marge subscribes to old adage any publicity is good publicity. She's
got an ego the size of My. Everest and feed that ego by being controversial. If
they'd just leave her alone we'd all be better off except her. Problem is that
might cost them a few papers or ads so they don't......

mike

    
    
      
    
     Just when I thought MLB has hit rock bottom.  Lets see they keep
    Shoeless Joe and Pete outta the HOF 'cause a da integrity of the
    game thing but allow a piece of trash like this to own a team.  I
    have absolutely no respect for any owner at this point.  I know its
    her team and freedom of speech blah blah blah but this one stinkin
    interview will set back all the progress of the last year in the
    hearts and minds of the fans.  She is one person I truely would like
    to see get hit by a bus.
    
    Jerry

  One of the problems for the owners is that there is probably not a whole lot
they can do about her. They seemed to be able to suspend her once but they may
or may not be able to get away with that again. 

  Maybe with a bit of luck Shotsie IV will get rabies and take a good chomp.


  George 

    	Wonder if she'll claim she's being picked on because she's a woman
    owner again?
    
    				  /Don

	Let me start by saying that Marge "She should be" Schott is
	an insensitive jerk that should learn to control what she
	says ...
  
>>   "Everything you read, when he came in, he was good," Schott said in a
>>   taped interview with ESPN's Sal Paolantonio that aired Sunday night.
>>   "They built tremendous highways and got all the factories going. But
>>   then he went nuts, he went berserk, I guess. .... But everybody in
>>   history knows he was good at the beginning, but he just went too far."
  
	... but what is really wrong with this statement? Am I mistaken
	or wasn't Hitler actually voted Time's "Man of the Year" in the
	late 1930's?? So, back then, before the war, some people did
	think he was doing good things ... 
	
	Vinny - Not defending Marge or Adolf at all, just trying to
		figure this out ...
	

Time awards the "Man of the Year" to the person that had the
most impact for that year, positive or negative.

Mike

    
>   The outspoken Schott had made similar comments in a November, 1992
>   interview with the New York Times in which she was quoted as saying
>   Hitler "was good in the beginning."
                                         
    I was going to say, this is recycled news, because I know that Marge
    "Should Be" Schott had already made these exact same comments...
    
    Actually though, I think the media is doing us all a great disservice 
    by giving this woman a public forum.  When the time comes, do what 
    you have to to get her ousted from MLB but spare us the piddling 
    running commentary on her cheapness (this is what Peter Gammons does 
    instead of keeping up on baseball).  It's old news...
    
    glenn
    

>> Time awards the "Man of the Year" to the person that had the
>> most impact for that year, positive or negative.

	T'anks, I didn't know that ... 

	Vinny

|                          -< Clarification provided >-
|
|>> Time awards the "Man of the Year" to the person that had the
|>> most impact for that year, positive or negative.
|
|	T'anks, I didn't know that ... 
|
|	Vinny


Historically, Hitler did a lot for Germany early in his regime.  Of course, you
also have to realize that even then he was extremely ruthless in what he did
and how he did it.  If you got in his way......

His greatest skill, actually, was that he was a spellbinding orator.  If you
read _The_Rise_And_Fall_Of_The_Third_Reich_ you will see that he spent a lot of
time polishing his oratory, for he felt strongly that through oratory you could
bend the will of the people and generate the support of public opinion.

The man was clearly warped.  The good works that he did perform, IMO, were more
for building that public support and for improving his "Reich" than they were
for improving the lives of the people.

His overall reasons for what he did came from the seeds of bigotry and hatred,
and not just of the Jews.

Granted, this is all a large over-simplification, but it's kind of the way I
see it.


Marge is a piece of work....


'Saw

So unlike Hitler, Marge was crazy from the get go?

TTom

  Weren't Hitler and the others in his party talking about his Arian master
race before coming to power? 

  Seems he was pretty much a psychopath from the get go as well. About the only
difference I can see is that he didn't have a dog like ... no wait a minute. He
and Eva did have a dog. 

  George

>  Weren't Hitler and the others in his party talking about his Arian master
>race before coming to power? 

Yeah.  He outlined it in _Mein_Kampf_.... which was written in prison afore he
came to power.

He did some good things early on for all the wrong reasons.  He wanted to
improve Germany to be his personal empire, which was filled with Aryan types.
Course, he weren't an Aryan, but he was the Fuhrer which made it okay I guess.

(Sheesh, what a fruitcake!)


>  Seems he was pretty much a psychopath from the get go as well. About the only
>difference I can see is that he didn't have a dog like ... no wait a minute. He
>and Eva did have a dog. 

Yabbut at least ol' Hitler had a manly dog - a German Shepard.  Poor dog got
shot in the bunker too.

Adolph and Marge -- someone ought to do some of that movie magic and put a
picture of Marge in an old film clip of Adolph.....


'Saw

re: Adolph and Marge

Have you seen _The Producers_? It's a_early Mel Brooks wherein Dick Shawn
plays Adolph on Acid. They produce a play called _Springtime for Hitler_.

TTom

    Well comparing Marge to Hitler is what we're criticizing her for -
    making light of Hitler and his crimes.  Granted some of her faults
    multiplied by 40 million just like her is what got Hitler into power in
    the first place - don't remember he was elected into power and then
    became a dictator.
    
    Most of the quotes are similar to what the textbooks of the 40s and 50s
    did right about Hitler.  Today it is his crimes against the jews that
    make his name synonomous with evil - my generation castigated him for
    pushing the arian superman philosophy.  I would like to see the
    essential philosophy "The ends justify the means" be criticized more
    than the individuals who practiced it (not that the "ends" weren't bad
    enough).

[www.nando.net]
   
               WOMAN PITCHES SCORELESS RELIEF FOR DOUBLE-A TEAM
   __________________________________________________________________________
   
   JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (Jun 4, 1996 11:05 p.m. EDT) -- Pamela Davis, with
   fans chanting her name and forcing her to take a curtain call, pitched
   one inning of scoreless relief and got the win Tuesday night in a
   minor league exhibition game.
   
   She is believed to be the first woman to pitch for a major league farm
   club under the current structure of the minor league system.
   
   Davis, a 21-year-old starter with the Colorado Silver Bullets women's
   baseball team, pitched for the Jacksonville Suns, a Double-A affiliate
   of the Detroit Tigers, against the Australian Olympic team.
   
   "I don't know what doors it will open for women in professional
   baseball," Davis said. "I hope something will open."
   
   Davis entered in the top of the fifth with the Suns leading 6-0. She
   allowed a leadoff double off the left-field wall to Peter Vogler, who
   advanced to third when she got Richard Vagg to ground sharply to
   second on the first pitch.
   
   She struck out Michael Dunn on a fastball down and away after setting
   him up with two sliders, then got Jason Hewitt on a weak grounder to
   second.
   
   Fans behind Jacksonville's dugout stood as she sprinted off the field,
   and she was greeted by high-fives in the dugout. The crowd chanted "We
   Want Pam" when she manager Bill Plummer replaced her in the sixth with
   Romulo Martinez.
   
   She came out for a curtain call and another loud cheer.
   
   "It was awesome," she said, her feet bouncing excitedly as she spoke.
   "I can't even explain the feeling. I wanted to throw another inning
   but he said, 'You're done.' I said all right. I can't be greedy. I got
   one."
   
   The Suns won 7-2. The Australian team had beaten the Silver Bullets
   19-0 Monday night in Melbourne.
   
   Davis, a right-hander with a fastball approaching 80 mph, was playing
   as part of an agreement between the Southern League and Silver
   Bullets.
   
   The Southern League had billed it as the first time a woman has
   pitched for a sanctioned men's professional team. But according to the
   Elias Sports Bureau and Howe Sports Service, other women have pitched
   in the minors.
   
   The most notable was in 1931, when Jackie Mitchell pitched for the
   Chattanooga Lookouts of the Southern Association. In an exhibition
   against the New York Yankees, she struck out Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig.
   
   Breaking barriers is nothing new to Davis. She was the first girl to
   pitch in the Junior League World Series in 1988, leading a U.S. team
   from Orlando to a 7-3 victory over Canada.
   
   She also played on the baseball team at Lake Mary High School near
   Orlando before playing softball at the University of South Florida.
   
   She joined the Silver Bullets this year and rose to the top of the
   starting rotation with a 2-2 record and 1.88 ERA.
   
   Several of her Silver Bullets teammates came to watch her pitch. They
   leaned over the dugout railing before the game, coercing Davis --
   called "Pup" because of her age -- into coming over for a group
   picture.
   
   "I think this is incredible. It's a memorable moment for women's
   baseball," said Alyson Habetz, a pitcher for the Silver Bullets.
   "We're proud of Pup. She's getting an opportunity and setting an
   example for all women that it's OK to dream this dream."
   
   Despite the hype, the attendance was sparse. Lydia Manns came with her
   husband and two daughters, including 6-year-old Joelle.
   
   "She's been doing the tomahawk chop at Braves games since she was 2.
   She's been bugging me to play baseball," Manns said of her youngest
   daughter. "I told her a girl was going to pitching for the Suns
   tonight and she said, 'Cool!"'
   
   Next up for Davis are interviews Wednesday on "Good Morning America"
   and "CNN." An appearance with David Letterman is tentatively scheduled
   for Thursday night.
   
   She will also go back to the Silver Bullets. She's not sure what she
   proved by playing in the minors, but she's certain of one thing.
   
   "I pitched," she said. "It was my dream to do that."

Is there something here?

So far, Nebraska, Kentucky, Dallas and Chicago have won hoops and
football titles.

Nebraska has contributed Larry Phillips and Christian Peters to society.
Dallas has contributed Michael Irvin.
Kentucky has stayed clean, so far.

What will be the legacy of the Bulls?

TTom

    
    The Bulls do not need a legacy. They have Micheal and the Worm

While I may be able to appreciate your sentiments, I see absolutely no
parallel, especially in terms of legal wranglings.

What has Rodman done that he's on probation and/or awaiting pulling time
for?

TTom

According to BrainWaves, some marketting company, basketball is the most
popular sport worldwide among teens.

They polled over 25K teenagers from 15-18. They were asked if'n you liked
to play of watch various sports and here's the results

	1. Basketball 71%
	2. Soccer 67%
	3. Tennis 62%
	4. Auto racing 56%
	5. Skiing 54%

TTom

>	1. Basketball 71%
>	2. Soccer 67%
>	3. Tennis 62%
>	4. Auto racing 56%
>	5. Skiing 54%

Ok TTom, don't leave us hangin', where do baseball and football stand ?

Figger skating was 6th.

Hoops finished down around 18 worldwide. FWIW, USA was not the top hoops
country, they were 4th in appreciation of this game. Behind Nigeria and a
couple of others.

American football wasn't mentioned, being a couple orders magnitude less
poplar than soccer football.

TTom

On this day in the history of sprots,

	1859: Amherst beat Williams 66-32 in the firsted
	intercollegiate baseball game.

Sounds like a basketball score...

  Somewhere between 1845 when Alexander Cartwrite wrote up his rules for the
Knickerbockers and about 10 years later they made a big deal of the fact that
the rules were changed so that baseball games ended after 9 innings instead
of ending when one of the teams reached 21.

  Of course today that looks like a great move since modern games would go on
for the better part of a day trying to reach 21 but I wonder if the rule was
changed back then because teams were reaching 21 to quickly?

  George

I wonder if'n the following is really a sprots:

  SPITTING CAN BE A FAMILY EVENT

   EAU CLAIRE, Mich. - Joe Lessard Sr. of Benheim, Ontario, spewed just
   short of the record in capturing the 23rd annual International Cherry
   Pit Spitting contest Saturday. His 71-foot, 11 1/2-inch effort, just
   under the 72-foot, 7 1/2-inch all-time mark, gave him his third title.
   And he isn't only talented person in his family. Joe Lessard Jr.
   finished second with a spit of 57 feet, 2 inches.

TTom

seemingly fitting for SPROTS:

  LANDMARK CASE: IT'S WAWA VS. HAHA

   ALLENTOWN, Pa. - Try to keep up here: Wawa is suing HAHA over a silly
   name.

   The Wawa food store chain, with 500 outlets in five states, is
   demanding in a federal lawsuit that the lone HAHA market, in
   Seipstown, change its name. U.S. District Judge Edward Cahn was unable
   to work out a compromise so the issue is going to court July 12.
   Tamilee and George Haaf II said they decided on HAHA only after
   vetoing Haaf and Haaf as a name for their store. Wawa says HAHA is
   deceiving the public into believing it has a Wawa connection.

TTom

The Top 10 Sports Marketing Atheletes, annual endoresements:

 1. Michael Jordan, $38M
 2. Shaquille O'Neal, $23M
 3. Arnold Palmer, $16M
 4. Andre Agassi, $15.8M
 5. Jack Nicklaus, $14.3M
 6. Grant Hill, $14M
 7. Joe Montana, $12M
 8. Wayne Gretzky, $8.75M
 9. Deion Sanders, $6M
10. Hakeem Olajuwon, $5M

source: Sports Marketing Letter, Brian Murphy, Editor.

    Coming soon:  Tiger Woods!
    
    NAZZ

on a whole 'nother topic...

Recently, there've been some talk about how maybe some of our heros
mighta caused some of the problems we have in sprots.

Specifically, there's been talk that Ali and even his Airness have
contributed the this era of running your mouth, in your face, trash
talking, and I'm for me.

As a_example, this was mentioned by Grant Hill in his interview with Roy
Firestone. He speculated that Dr. J and Michael J made all the up and
comers wanna jam and now a lot of 'em caint shoot fer nothin.

One of them talk sprots shows - 1-on-1, I think - mentioned Ali with his
"I am the greatest".

Just wondering.

In any case, the nexted reply is a_article about talking trash in the
NBA.

TTom

   
                    Trash talking still abounds in the NBA
   
   (Feb 14, 1997 02:30 a.m. EST) - Michael Jordan was at it again,
   knocking down threes and smiling all the way to a 35-point night.
   
   During his scoring spree, Jordan took then-Minnesota Timberwolves
   point guard Darrick Martin to the outside and palmed the ball in the
   air, daring the smaller guard to slap it away.
   
   "Toying with me," Martin would say later. Martin leaped, swatted the
   ball out of bounds and had a message for the NBA's eight-time scoring
   champion.
   
   "You better play," he said. "This isn't a cakewalk."
   
   Jordan had a crisp retort for the young Martin.
   
   "You guys suck."
   
   Seconds later, the two men -- miles apart in salary, NBA status and
   ability -- were in each other's faces, "and the refs had to separate
   us," Martin said.
   
   Such is the world of NBA trash talking, where anyone from a future
   Hall of Famer to a journeyman on a 10-day contract can try to get into
   an opponents head through verbal antagonism.
   
   Sometimes the talk is limited to banter between two old friends who
   haven't played against each other in a while. Other times the lingo
   has an edge to it as one player tries to make an example of the other
   by jawing in his face.
   
   "Everybody talks trash," said Michael Smith, the Sacramento Kings'
   rugged power forward. "I talk trash, Michael Jordan talks trash, Gary
   Payton, Shawn Kemp, Charles Barkley, everybody. I don't think there's
   anything wrong with it."
   
   From the G-rated ("You can't guard me") to the harsh ("I'm gonna kick
   your ---"), the words rain down like jump shots, a myriad of phrases
   following a dunk, a blocked shot, a three-pointer, a clean steal or a
   deft crossover move.
   
   Though trash talking is an integral part of the NBA, it didn't begin
   there.
   
   Almost universally, current and retired players say trash talking is
   more prevalent on the asphalt of America's inner cities than under the
   lights on the professional level.
   
   In the outdoor game, there are no cameras and no highlights. So if a
   player makes a memorable dash to the basket, there's nothing like a
   little improvisation to make the moment last.
   
   "It starts on the playground," said Denver Nuggets forward LaSalle
   Thompson, a veteran of 14 NBA seasons. "It's a form of showing off. If
   you outplay a guy, you want people to know it, and you want to let him
   know it."
   
   On the playground, trash talking flows freely since the game is in its
   purest form of expression, said Derrick Gilbert, a Ph.D. candidate in
   sociology at UCLA.
   
   "Trash talking is just a part of a huge wheel of cultural expression,"
   Gilbert said. "It's not just an oral tradition. It's hanging on the
   rim, it's staring. That's all a part of the aesthetic."
   
   Gilbert said historically many African Americans have used oral,
   sartorial and physical expression to unleash their frustrations that
   fell on deaf ears in the mainstream.
   
   It's an idea that sports sociologist Harry Edwards of the University
   of California has often referred to when talking about the advent of
   touchdown celebrations in the NFL in the 1970s, when some of the
   league's players began spiking the ball and dancing after a score.
   
   "It's a long-rooted tradition in African American culture since
   slavery," Gilbert said. "Some of it goes back to West African roots.
   It doesn't matter the endeavor. Even in a game like chess, brothers
   will talk trash."
   
   Former NBA and ABA star George McGinnis said that Gilbert "makes a
   pretty valid point," though he went a step further, adding that the
   news media can't seem to get enough of trash talking and other antics
   displayed in arenas nightly.
   
   "It seems to be a part of our culture now," McGinnis said. "You see it
   on movies, TV, everywhere.
   
   "(The players) know they're gonna be on (ESPN's) 'SportsCenter' and
   the (CNN) 'Play of the Day. As a result, you get a lot of people that
   are willing to do a lot of these extreme things for media attention."
   
   Since many of today's pro players first learned their game on the
   playground, the NBA gets its share of free talkers, said Indiana
   Pacers guard Reggie Miller.
   
   "That's where it originated from," Miller said. "You're always going
   to have trash talking because that's how 95 percent of the guys grew
   up playing the game."
   
   Miller, of course, is notorious for his quick-release three-point
   bombs and his verbal tete-a-tete with movie director Spike Lee during
   the 1993-94 playoffs against the New York Knicks.
   
   Thompson, a fount of NBA knowledge, also threw Jordan's name in the
   mix of great trash talkers but added it's usually of the kinder,
   gentler variety.
   
   After Jordan makes a basket over a player, he'll often say, "'You'll
   get the next one, big fella,"' Thompson recalled. "He doesn't belittle
   you. His game just belittles you."
   
   But Miller and Jordan pale in comparison to the all-time greatest
   trash talker to lace up a pair of sneakers, Thompson noted.
   
   It's a player who got into his opponent's head not so much by what he
   said but what he did after he spoke.
   
   "Larry Bird was probably the greatest trash talker because he backed
   it up," Thompson said. "Larry would do it before he shot. He'd say,
   'Merry Christmas,' and then, boom, it's down."
   
   Thompson recalled one night when the Pacers were visiting the Boston
   Garden, and the Pacers could not decide how to defend Bird.
   
   "We put George McCloud on him ... a rookie," Thompson said. "Larry
   said, 'Hell, I know you guys are desperate."'
   
   Was Bird's reputation true or overblown?
   
   "Larry Bird, in his early days, used to talk a lot of stuff," said
   Kings forward Kevin Gamble, Bird's former teammate in Boston. "He'd
   say, 'You better get up on me or I'll get 50.'
   
   "He was so good, he could back it up night in and night out. If there
   was 15 seconds left, he'd go out and tell the guy the play.
   
   "'They're gonna give the ball to me, I'm gonna step back and shoot a
   three, and I'm gonna hit it.' And he did."
   
   In the 1980s, trash talking reached its peak, Thompson said, with the
   likes of Bird and Barkley. And though trash talking continues in
   today's game, Thompson said he thinks it has gone from a little fun
   banter between players to being somewhat nasty.
   
   "The new guys are taking it a step further, making it a lot more
   personal," Thompson said. "They're saying, 'I made a nice move on you,
   and you're a sucker."'
   
   Even Miller agreed that some of the newer NBA crop has taken trash
   talking to another level.
   
   "There are more fines because of trash talking this year and taunting
   and all that, and there were never fines in years back," Miller said.
   
   Three seasons ago, the NBA enacted a taunting rule that resulted in
   players receiving a technical foul for "trying to show up another
   player or doing something that leads to an altercation," said Rod
   Thorn, the NBA's senior vice president of basketball operations.
   
   "It's at the referee's discretion," Thorn said. "It's one thing (for a
   player) to say, 'You can't guard me.' It's another thing to taunt a
   player so the person sitting in the top row can see it. They want
   everybody in the stands to see not only did they make a great play,
   but they humiliated that idiot that was trying to guard them. It's
   mean-spirited."
   
   Gamble, a soft-spoken player, said he understands why the NBA wants to
   curtail the confrontations that result from trash talking going too
   far.
   
   "I know (the NBA) has been cleaning up and taking the violence out of
   the game," he said. "People don't talk as much because it gets a
   little heated out there."
   
   Martin, now with the Los Angeles Clippers, said he has been trying to
   tone down his own trash- talking antics -- but one of his peers isn't
   so sure it has worked.
   
   "He'll make a move to the basket, and he'll do that ESPN
   'SportsCenter' thing -- 'Da-na-na, da-na-na,"' Thompson said.

RE        <<< Note 191.80 by HBAHBA::HAAS "Come on down, Gilbert Brown" >>>

>One of them talk sprots shows - 1-on-1, I think - mentioned Ali with his
>"I am the greatest".

  Whenever Ali said "I am the greatest" he was simply stating the obvious.
In my book he is without a question the athlete of the century.

  Also, there was a lot of tongue in cheek when Ali held those press conferences
talking about how he'd:

    "Float like a butter fly
    sting like a bee.
    Sonny Liston
    will be down in three"

  George

That sounds like you think it's OK to run your mouth if'n you can back it
up. Is that accurate?

In any case, do you think he contributed to the me-me-me attitudes of a
lot of professional sports?

TTom

RE        <<< Note 191.83 by HBAHBA::HAAS "Come on down, Gilbert Brown" >>>

>That sounds like you think it's OK to run your mouth if'n you can back it
>up. Is that accurate?

  In general I've never held much for what many sports fans feel was the
11th commandment:

    11: If thow art a sports figure thow must be humble and never complain.

  I tend to be more of a 1st amendment type.

>In any case, do you think he contributed to the me-me-me attitudes of a
>lot of professional sports?

  No, I think that what contributes to the me-me-me attitude of sports
professional is that they are drawn from the pool of people in general and on
average they are no more or less me-me-me oriented than anyone else.

  It's just that people envious of their fame and fortune can't stand to hear
them complain about anything. Meanwhile sports writers who's bread and butter
comes from fanning the flames of controversy, pander to envious type fans by
highlighting every single complaint and making them up when they are not handy.

  As for trash talk I get the impression that the players think it's fun. If
it is then why not, after all they are playing games.

  George

Ok, trash talkin is OK by George. Anyone else?

>  It's just that people envious of their fame and fortune can't stand to hear
>them complain about anything. Meanwhile sports writers who's bread and butter

So the problems with professional sprots are caused by the fans and
writers?

And the onliest reason we watch cause we're envious?

TTom

    
> Ok, trash talkin is OK by George. Anyone else?
    
    As a fan, it's my 1st Amendment right to boo and/or tastefully 
    heckle a trash-talking athlete who has crossed the line... 
    
    glenn
    

    
      I don't think it's envious to think that Michael Jordan trash
     talking to a far inferior opponent is in bad taste. If anything,
     it's stating the obvious. And it's a reminder that being a great
     athlete doesn't make you a great human being.

I don't really have a problem with trash-talking if you can back 
it up. Reggie Miller to Spike Lee, fine with me.
Jimmy Connors in the 70's, fine with me. Ali? no problem.

I prefer they do it off the field/court however.

daryll

It's pushing six PM here, but I sense a rare opportunity as this topic
warms up.

I'm pretty much a first amendment type, too.  I think there have to be
very strong arguments made before I'm willing to tell someone, "You
can't say that".  It's up to referees to make sure that things don't
degenerate into violence.  Maybe the NBA just needs to hire a few
NHL linesmen, it's all part of the job description.

Did it start with Muhammad Ali (then Cassius Clay)?  Might have.  He
was trash talking from the day he turned pro.  An awful lot of people
watched his fights in the hope that the kid with the big mouth would
get it shut for him.  After 20 or 25 fights, you could have made a
case that he was in fact "the greatest", but he'd been telling us
about it since day one.  I thought at the time that he was about as
entertaining an athlete as I'd ever seen, but a whole bunch of folks
held it against him.

I agree strongly with George's remarks on the role of the press.  I'm
old enough to remember when athletes said "Aw, shucks" in public and
were lionized in the papers.  Their off-field exploits were simply not
covered.  I didn't know Mickey Mantle was a lush and I probably wouldn't
have wanted to know.  I knew what he did at the ballpark, and that was
enough.

Today everything gets blown out of proportion.  A tiny deviation from the
straight and narrow is treated as mortal sin, and written about and
reported with a self-righteous hypocrisy that makes me want to hurl.
And unfortunately, fans have bought into this.  A couple of days ago,
we heard that Kenny Lofton is going to be on probation with Indians
fans because he plans to test the free agency market--that is, to choose
his employer for the first time as a professional athlete.  He'll likely
play the best ball of his career, but his "loyalty" will be called into
question.  Why should he be loyal to Cleveland?  Should he have been
loyal to Houston before they traded him to Cleveland?  He works for
Cleveland and owes them his best effort, and he has every right to
look for a better job when his contract expires.  But the hypocrites
in the press and among the fans turn it into a moral issue.  And I agree
that envy (one of the seven deadlies) is the root of this (no, TTom, it's
not the reason fans watch, it's the reason they boo).

Steve

    
  >> Why should he be loyal to Cleveland?  
    
     He shouldn't. He should get paid as much as he can because if the
     shoe were on the other foot and they had no use for him they'd
     kick him to the curb faster than you could say 'has-been'. The
     really laughable thing is thet Indians GM said something about
     dissing the loyal fans of Cleveland. 'Loyal fans of Cleveland'?
     Vic, roll that footage of the Indians games of the 70s and 80s
     when there were more ushers than fans at Cleveland Municipal
     stadium. Just about everyone's in it for what they can get, the 
     fans included. Escpecially, frontrunning Cleveland fans. Get
     paid, Kenny.

    
     Ali might have been the most important athlete of the 20th century
    but the "greatest"? I don't think he's really even close. He's not
    even the greatest boxer of the century never mind overall athlete. 
    In fact, I'd posit that he's not even the greatest boxer of the last 
    40 years. I'd give that distinction to Roberto Duran. Ali has that
    big three year gap in his career. And losses to good but not great
    fighters like Ken Norton and Joe Frazier probably due to that gap and 
    a should have been loss ot Henry Cooper before it. Duran, on the other
    hand, has wins over guys like Esteban DeJesus and Sugar Ray Leonard
    and he's done it over a 50 pound weight span and 25+ years. If he spoke
    perfect english and came from New York, he'd be a god in this country
    but he's a Panamanian who clung stubbornly to spanish refusing to
    learn english. I love Ali. I have since childhood. But "greatest
    athlete ever"? No way.

    
    
        I too am not against trash talking as long as you can back it up. I
    don't think rookies should be doing it.
    
    
    
    Chap

I agree with Chappy and George in the same note.

daryll

re: Duran.

I now have some insight to the Byrdie's eye view of things. Without
supporting Ali' Greatest claim, which I do, it's hard to give this honor
to quit against SR Leonard. The real Sugar Ray would be certainly worthy
of mention, here, though.

re: rookies shouldn't be doing it (trash taling)

Even if'n they back it up. I guess it woulda be alright for Magic to run
his mouth some after beating Dr. J and the Sixers in '80.

re: firsted amendment

No one's saying anything about trying to revoke this right for anyone.
Fans also have this right and there might just be a trend where fans make
their statement at the box office, by not showing.

This is the problem with sprots. It's not whether it should be allowed
but the ol' proverbial, is it good for the game.

Also, under the guise of this, we support the pros but condemn the press.

TTom

    >> Without supporting Ali' Greatest claim, which I do, it's 
    >> hard to give this honor to quit against SR Leonard. 

       When it happened I was disappointed in Duran. In retrospect, 
       I don't blame him at all. Leonard didn't want to fight Duran.
       He tried that in their first fight and got beaten cleanly.
       He made a circus of the second fight and Duran had no interest
       in being the featured clown. Being America's darling Leonard
       knew all he had to do was land more punches and end the fight 
       on his feet and he'd win. They'd never deduct points from
       Leonard for not fighting or for clowning around. He employed 
       that same stratgy in the Hagler fight.

    >> Sugar Ray would be certainly worthy of mention, here, though.

       He might crack the top five of the last 40 years but 
       not the top three. I'd give Duran number one, Ali
       number two and Salvador Sanchez number three.
    

Ah, Tommy, now that's another matter.  Duran > Ali?  I don't know.  Maybe the
best ever below welterweight, I could buy that.  I also have trouble with
comparisons across weight classes.  Yeah, pound for pound and all that, but
the way fighters fight at the various weights is so different that at some
point, comparisons become meaningless.

Point is that, while Duran was devastation itself as a lightweight, he was
one of a crop of great welterweights, and he didn't, after all, manage to
beat Marvin Hagler, either.

I'm not quite as negative about the 2nd Leonard fight as TTom.  I don't hold
it against Duran.  I'll take his word that something was wrong.  It was a
one time happening in his career, a total aberration.  I'm no more likely
to judge him by it than I am Roberto Alomar by the Hirschbeck incident.

Likewise, I don't downgrade Ali because of the first Frazier fight (and BTW
I think you underrate Joe Frazier:  he was one-dimensional, but boy, what a
dimension).  We'll never know what Ali would have become if he hadn't been
banned from boxing for over three years, but the two subsequent fights make
clear, I think, that he would have handled Frazier.

The greatest ever?  I don't know, I've only seen Sugar Ray Robinson on film,
I was a small boy when I watched Rocky Marciano beat Ezzard Charles twice,
and the great fighters of the first half of the century are at best faded
celluloid.  But on mature consideration I would rate Ali over Duran.

Who knows, maybe in a few years Roy Jones will have a couple of defining
fights under his belt and we'll be calling him the best.  Maybe Nasim
Hamed is as good as he thinks he is.  Maybe somebody will make his debut
on ESPN next week who will go down in history.

But I doubt I will ever enjoy watching another fighter as much as I
enjoyed watching Ali.

Steve

  >> Point is that, while Duran was devastation itself as a lightweight, 
  >> he was one of a crop of great welterweights, and he didn't, after 
  >> all, manage to beat Marvin Hagler, either.

     Duran ran roughshod over some very good and even great lightweights.
     Beat some very good and even great welters and took Hagler, who was a
     great middleweight, the distance. Ring magazine ranks him as one of 
     the Top 3 lightweights of time and he has some pretty impressive
     acheivements all the way up to 176 pounds or so.

  >> I was a small boy when I watched Rocky Marciano beat Ezzard Charles 
  >> twice,

     I still hold that Marciano is the most overrated athlete in history.

  >> Who knows, maybe in a few years Roy Jones will have a couple of defining
  >> fights under his belt and we'll be calling him the best.  

     Roy's problem is that there is no one to gibe him that defining fight.
     In boxing greatness cannot be ahceived without a worthy opponent to
     bestow it upon you. I want to see Roy win a real war before I'm con-
     vinced. Same with Oscar DeLaHoya.    
    

    
    
       Daryll,
    
    
         I  was thinking the same thing after reading you and George's
    replies!!!
    
    Chap

>     I still hold that Marciano is the most overrated athlete in history.

I can hear right now Eddie Murphy in _Coming to America_ when they were
discussing boxers in the My-T-Sharp barbershop. The older Eddie guy had a
line about whenever anybody talks about boxers, some white guy brings up
Rocky Marciano.

The third barber - not Murphy and not Arsenio - said that Marciana beat
Joes Louis to which the older barber claims that Joe Lewis was 137 or so
when they fought.

And, of course, they all refuse to call him Ali: "His momma calls him
Clay".

But we digress. Without regard to who's the greatest, I think it's fair
to say that Ali promoted brashness for more than any other fighter to his
time and maybe since.

And a question to all you 1st amendent types: so you're saying that Deion
and Irvin are OK cause they won too?

TTom

    Why the comparison of Sanders and Irvin?  That seems to be the problem
    about the "trash" business - That two that showboat means they both do 
    other things as well.
    
    Sanders doesn't seem to be one of the bad guys.

I'm not saying that their "bad" guys.

I was just wondering, from the crowd that expounded that it's OK if'n
you can back it up, what they think of Deion and Irvin cause they most
certainly back it up.

And of course, the other issue that hasn't seemed to take off, does it
hurt the game of basketball having a whole generation of players come in
that think that unless you're dunking it, you're not really with it, and
as a result caint hit a 15 foot jumper.

TTom

>And a question to all you 1st amendent types: so you're saying that Deion
>and Irvin are OK cause they won too?

Winning has nothing to do with it in my view, it's a matter of the right to
self-expression.  I personally find the extremes of it distasteful, but
would consider it a greater evil to suppress it.

I can't comment on Irvin, as I've never seen him play.  I've seen Deion
play a much harder game, and I can't remember him hot-dogging.  He hasn't
done anything in baseball, and I suspect he doesn't feel he's earned the
right to hot dog.

You know, it goes on in hockey, too (a sport I watch, unlike football and
basketball), but hockey players are not nearly as creative in their use of
the language.  Mostly it seems to consist of "F*** you!"  "Oh, yeah, well,
f*** you, too!"  When Tie Domi was with the Rangers a few years back, he
would do this number of riding his stick like a witch's broom after scoring
a goal.  This frosted the opposition big time, but, since Domi only scores
about a half a dozen per season, the resentment never built up to a point
where someone was moved to take a run at him.  What if a Brett Hull or a
Jaromir Jagr pulled a similar stunt?  Sooner or later, a Dale Hunter would
level him like Hunter levelled Pierre Turgeon back in '93.  Turgeon's only
offense was to score a game-winning goal, and Hunter was suspended for a
very long time (21 games, if memory serves).  I can imagine, though, that
if Hunter had been "provoked" by taunting, the suspension might have been
less, and there would have been a hue and cry to penalize the taunt.  But
I don't buy it.

I've always believed that it's up to me to decide how offended I'm going
to be by somebody else's action.  Pitchers get bent out of shape if a
hitter admires a long home run.   Hitters get bent out of shape when Dennis
Eckersley guns them out after a strikeout.  IMO it ain't such a big deal
and they should lighten up.

Steve

PS to Tommy:  I agree with every word you wrote about Roberto Duran.  A
lightweight for the ages, and competitive with the best at welter, middle,
and on up to light heavy.  How that leads you to rank him above Ali, I
don't see.  As for the Rock:  he beat everybody they threw at him.  He
ducked nobody.  He was utterly unschooled and a bleeder to boot.  For a
half dozen years he was the best heavyweight in the world.  Ali would have
cut him to ribbons.  But overrated?  Tommy Morrison was overrated.  Gerry
Cooney was overrated.  If anybody were saying Marciano ranked with Louis
or Ali, I'd say he was overrated, but I haven't heard that claim anywhere.

      On 'self expression'
    
      I think its wonderful to see a guy like Barry Sanders express 
      himself the way he does while he runs the ball and then do no
      more than perhaps kneel down in the endzone.  Relative to so
      many other players, I really look up to him that way.  Now 
      THAT'S a sportsman.
    
      But, I do think people have the right.  I just don't care for 
      it and I didn't like seeing all the Packers do it in the SB
      either.
    
      On boxers.
    
      I worked one summer job at a machine shop.  It was the summer 
      there was a big baseball strike.  All the old workers bought 
      Heralds and they were giving excerpts on a book which listed 
      the author's choice for the greatest players of all time (as 
      there were no games to cover).  (I think it was ~'80.)
    
      The author picked Willie Mays and this one Italian guy named
      Silvio would keep telling me, "I'm just a dumb Italian, but 
      there's two things I KNOW!  Baseball and boxing."  He would then
      rant and rave about how there was no way anyone was a better
      player than Babe Ruth and Sugar Ray Robinson was by far the
      greatest boxer of all time.  (He liked Mays by the way...put him
      about third).
    
      Anyway, I recall his arguments being very compelling.  Robinson's
      boxing career was just phenomenal.  He was crushing people in
      (I think) even his 40's.  I don't think its possible to insist 
      Robinson could not be the greatest and I think its OK to suggest
      he was.  Even Ali had the utmost respect for Sugar.  I don't think
      he'd ever have taken his nickname and as far as I'm concerned, 
      anyone else that had it ought to have had the common sense to be
      refused to be called it - Leonard included.
    
    						Tony
                                                            

I can't speak for Tommy but for myself, with Duran it was all business no
 clowning around once he got in there. He wasn't coming in there to outwit you
 for a victory he was coming to crush you. He had all the punches and was
 deadly with both hands........

RE       <<< Note 191.100 by HBAHBA::HAAS "Come on down, Gilbert Brown" >>>

>And a question to all you 1st amendent types: so you're saying that Deion
>and Irvin are OK cause they won too?

  They'd be OK even if they didn't win. Freedom of speech and freedom of
expression are in my opinion two of the greatest values in our society
and are the foundation of any free nation.

  And true Glenn, fans are free to criticize players for speaking up but I
have to say that listing to some guy say "I took you to the hoop" sounds a
lot less threatening than hearing people talk about how freedom of expression
from athletes is harmful to our society because it interferes with a game being
played strictly for entertainment.

  As the saying goes, if you cherish freedom you disagree with what someone
says but you defend their right to say it. 

  George

    
> And true Glenn, fans are free to criticize players for speaking up but I
> have to say that listing to some guy say "I took you to the hoop" sounds a
> lot less threatening than hearing people talk about how freedom of expression
> from athletes is harmful to our society because it interferes with a game being
> played strictly for entertainment.
    
    That's a mouthful.  Someone actually said that?  The last part, not "I 
    believe I just took you to the hoop, good fellow...", I mean.
    
    glenn
    

  Yes, in 

>                     <<< Note 191.86 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN >>>

  You said

>    As a fan, it's my 1st Amendment right to boo and/or tastefully 
>    heckle a trash-talking athlete who has crossed the line... 
    
  Now true I am making the assumption that the line you are talking about
has to do with what was being discussed, trash talk. Correct me if I'm wrong.

  I believe athletes have a right to express their opinion to other players
about plays they just made and I believe fans have a right to express the
opinion that talking trash is crossing a line.

  All I'm saying is that I have a lot more respect for the player than the
fan in that situation. The player is not challenging the pillar of freedom
on which our nation is built, freedom of expression, the fans is.

  George

    
>>    As a fan, it's my 1st Amendment right to boo and/or tastefully 
>>    heckle a trash-talking athlete who has crossed the line... 
>    
> Now true I am making the assumption that the line you are talking about
> has to do with what was being discussed, trash talk. Correct me if I'm wrong.
    
    I'll correct you that I ever said anything like trash-talking is
    "harmful to society".  I don't see some great wide-reaching societal
    problem here.
    
> All I'm saying is that I have a lot more respect for the player than the
> fan in that situation. The player is not challenging the pillar of freedom
> on which our nation is built, freedom of expression, the fans is.
    
    Yeah right.  Player A calls Player B a stiff.  In turn I call Player A
    a stiff, and the walls of freedom come tumbling down...
    
    glenn
    

    
  >> Yeah right.  Player A calls Player B a stiff.  In turn I call Player A
  >> a stiff, and the walls of freedom come tumbling down...
    
     And before you know it our kids are being forcefed borscht along
     with generous helpings of Das Kapital.    
    

RE                     <<< Note 191.109 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN >>>

>    Yeah right.  Player A calls Player B a stiff.  In turn I call Player A
>    a stiff, and the walls of freedom come tumbling down...
    
  No, it has to do with the reason people are getting called stiffs. 

  Player A is calling Player B a stiff because of something meaningless that
happened on a playing field while playing a game to entertain fans. Big deal. 

  Now if Joe Fan calls Player A a stiff because he disagrees with what Player A
said about that game, fine. He's expressing his opinion on the game. But if Joe
Fan calls Player A a stiff because he feels Player A should not be allowed
freedom of speech then as far as I'm concerned, Joe Fan is the real stiff
for not respecting one of our most fundamental rights. 

  Now I defend the right of Joe Fan to express that opinion but I have a hard
time respecting him for not believing in freedom of expression.

  George 

RE            <<< Note 191.110 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "Bang! Bang! Bang!" >>>

>     And before you know it our kids are being forcefed borscht along
>     with generous helpings of Das Kapital.    
    
  This from the side that believes that crimes in order of seriousness are:

  1). The rape and murder of the elderly and the young.
  2). Sports stars expressing a negative opinion.
  3). The battery and murder of the elderly and the young.
  4). Sports stars asking billionaire owners for more money. 
  5). Other murders.
  6). Owners asking cities to build stadiums.
  7). Other crimes and misdemeanors.

  George

    
    >They'd be OK even if they didn't win. Freedom of speech and freedom of
    >expression are in my opinion two of the greatest values in our society
    >and are the foundation of any free nation.
    
    While I do agree that freedom of speach and expression are great
    values, I think that anyone that believes we have them is a fool.
    You can't express yourself in your birthday suit, you can't say that
    you wish someone would shoot the president, you can't discriminate in
    speach to other races/nationalities/creeds, ... all of these things can
    land you in jail.  There is no freedom so much as it violates the law,
    therefore there is no freedom.
    
    Marc
    

  I agree with you on the birthday suit and the expression of discrimination.
While I don't care to see or hear either they should be protected speech. 

  However conspiracy to commit murder, whether it involves the president or
not, should not be protected since it can be part of an action which in itself
takes away the rights of another individual. 

  George

    
    Well George, I don't necessarily agree with you on the conspiracy to
    commit murder, but I can probably live with it.  The problem I have
    with it is that people are often "venting steam" by saying things like
    "I wish someone would knock that irresponsible fool out of office so we
    can get a real president in office".  That isn't a conspiracy at all.
    
    I can say that about anyone and not mean a thing.  If I say that about
    the president, even if I don't mean it, then I can go to jail.
    
    Marc
    

    
    
    re .112
    
     I guess to some folks freedom of speech means creating a set of 
     beliefs and ascribing them to someone you don't agree with.

    >   You can't express yourself in your birthday suit
    
    I would think that would be extremely expressive.

George, I'd make a distinction between Joe Fan calling Player A (or was it
B?) a stiff because he called Player B (or was it A?) a stiff, and Joe Fan
insisting Player Whichever be punished for calling Player TheOtherGuy a stiff.
There's a difference between "You shouldn't have said that" and "I demand
sanctions against your saying that".  Only the latter is an attack on
freedom of expression.  There is more than enough of the latter, to be sure.

Steve

    
    George, I demand that you resubmit your list.  You've forgotten:
    
    	DUI for Figure Skaters

RE     <<< Note 191.115 by CSC32::MACGREGOR "Colorado: the TRUE mid-west" >>>

>    Well George, I don't necessarily agree with you on the conspiracy to
>    commit murder, but I can probably live with it.  The problem I have
>    with it is that people are often "venting steam" by saying things like
>    "I wish someone would knock that irresponsible fool out of office so we
>    can get a real president in office".  That isn't a conspiracy at all.

  And that won't land you in jail. People always talk about knocking the
president out of office. In fact when ever there is an incumbent someone from
the other party conducts an entire campaign aimed at knocking that fool out
of office.

  Now Saying that you want to shoot the president will probably get you dragged
in for questioning, especially if the President is coming to town but again you
are not likely to serve much jail time if you were just venting steam. 

  However if you don't allow prosecutions for conspiracy then someone could
hire someone to kill someone else, promise them $10,000 and if the hit were
carried out before they actually paid the money they could claim free speech
and walk. That wouldn't work. As Justice Holms said, "protection of free speech
does not extend to shouting fire in a crowed room". 

  George

>    "I wish someone would knock that irresponsible fool out of office so we
>    can get a real president in office".  That isn't a conspiracy at all.

No it's not. This is merely what Jesse Helms said about Slick afore he
came down to NC one time. Something about he'd better be watching his
butt.

What, you may ask does all this has to do with sprots? You see it's a
simple progression from run your mouth -> 1st amendment/free speech ->
conspiracy to kill the president -> infinite wisdom.

That lasted step seems to be the launching pad...

TTom

RERE            <<< Note 191.121 by HBAHBA::HAAS "netwrok spatialist" >>>

>What, you may ask does all this has to do with sprots? You see it's a
>simple progression from run your mouth -> 1st amendment/free speech ->
>conspiracy to kill the president -> infinite wisdom ...

  ... -> Jesse Helms who wears bad suits.

  Another way of saying someone "wears" a bad suit is to say they "sport" a
bad suit so you see it was about sport after all.

  George

>  ... -> Jesse Helms who wears bad suits.

Ah yes, Jesse Helms, the Dennis Rodman of Right Wing Fanatics.