Conference hbahba::cam_sports

I read a disgusting article about the IOC, it's members and how the sites for
future Olympics get selected.

Basically whoever wines,dines and gives the most crap away to the IOC members
gets the games. They were very impressed by teh hotel they stayed in Peking and
have offered to engrave each IOC members name in a plaque and put it into the
great wall...(forget Tianamen square and all the other violations occuring
daily inside of China, money talks with the IOC...)

Metz

Money talks anywhere Metz, why look at FSBD.....

;^)

    Is this a shock?
    

    
    Yabbut is there any news on the site selection?  Today they were
    supposed to vote and I think the vote was going to occur in Monte
    Carlo.  Isn't it about 9:00PM there rightaboutnow?
    
    I remain,
    down to the cuticles!!!!!!!!
    Kev
    

    It's supposed to be down between Sydney and Beijing...
    

    the site was to have been announced about 20 minutes ago. 
    Unfortunately, Don Mattingly's BA since 8/20 has baken over the
    discussion on all the major networks, and the news hasn't gotten out.

    
    
    
          Thanks alot Kev now us SO Fans are out in the Cold!!!!!
    
    
    Chappy

Thanks to a lunch with Rush Limbaugh we found that the Chinese didn't serve
up the correct dessert spoon and the officials awarded the games to 
SYDNEY Australia.


Jeff

    
    Glad to hear it!! Especially after the Chinese whined and said they
    weren't showing up unless the games were at their house.
    
    brews

Lotsa tired but happy people in Sydney today. Announcment was at 4:20 am local
time and the parties were goin all nite and now all day.

Over 100,000 folks down at Circular Quay and the Opera House, and all the grog
was free!

The Olympic Park is only 2 min from the office here, so I expect quite a few
bidness trips to take place in September 2000.

matt

BTW Rugby League is being heavily pushed as a demo sport.

    Glad to see it go to Sydney, I was hoping it wouldn't go to that other
    place where there was TONS of media attention about it POSSIBLY going
    to.
    
    I won't mention the name of the country, because, in these days of
    everybody having a chip on their shoulder about being offended,
    somebody's complain and I'd get set hidden fer the first time in about
    2 months.(a personal record fer restraint).
    
    BTW, anybody know what the best type of CHINA to buy is?????
    
    
    Inquiring mindless and all that crap
    
    JaKe
    

    JaKe, how unlike you not to mention Beijing and also mention its
    abominable human rights record. 
    
    FWIW the IOC votes until one city gets a majority. In each round the
    city with the fewest votes gets dropped. There were 5 cities and 4
    rounds of voting. Beijing was #1 and Sydney #2 in each of the first 3
    rounds. Sydney finally beat Beijing 45-43 in the final round of voting.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    Yabbut it has been announced (also) that the US Olympic trials for the
    Hotlanta Games will be held in Charlotte starting around February
    17, 1994.  They beat out a bid by Philladelphia.  Alledgedly, there is
    also $150,000 in prioze money.
    
    Seems like Charlotte's really trying to make it big in the
    sportscentric label.
    
    I remain,
    Yer occasional ::Sprots reporter!
    Kev
    

    Yabbut Oh,
    
    	I should have clarified it by saying that Charlotte's only got the
    
    MARATHON TRIALS
    
    
    
    I remain,
    sorry for da mistake.
    Kev
    
    


	ps -	Hey!!!! Did somebody mention that Mattingly
		has only hit .200 since August 20th????

;^)
    

    
>> 1994 US Olympic trials ......
>> Alledgedly, there is also $150,000 in prize money.
   

  Is this new? 
   

 

Actually, Charlotte was trying to get part of the real Olympics. The host
city is allowed to add some number (4?) of events. It was hoping that at
least one of them would be in NC.

So far, the onliest new one I've heard of, and I swear I really did hear
this, is beach volleyball which is interesting cause Atlanta ain't no
where near the beach unless we have our buddy MrT planning the event. And
of course this doesn't help Charlotte.

It'll be interesting where they stage the Marathon trials. There's a
mini-marathon here every year right after Christmas and the furor over
the traffic inconvenience is about enough to cancel that annual event.

TTom

    
    >>rounds. Sydney finally beat Beijing 45-43 in the final round of voting.
    
    
    Good thing they got that field goal with 7 seconds left, huh???
    
    
    JaKe
    

JaKe,

It didn't matter. Beijing weren't covering the spread in any case.

TTom

    
>>It didn't matter. Beijing weren't covering the spread in any case.
    
    AND, they musta hired J_e Walt_n as haid coach, if they lost in the
    last quarter.
    
    JaKe
    

    >is beach volleyball which is interesting cause Atlanta ain't nowhere
    >near the beach
    
    Is Atlanta adding two-man volleyball as a demonstration sport?
    
    brews

    
    Yabbut I recenty saw a show on Oz and it was about the tremendous
    number of flys in Oz and the stuff people do to keep the suckers
    from flying into their mouths.
    
    I wonder if the gazillion flies in Oz will have an impact on the 
    pleasure of the 'pic tourists?
    
    I remain,
    always armed with bug killin stuff!
    Kev
    

	Thought this would be the most appropriate topic to 
	put this in.  Greg Louganis (sp) is infected with
	the HIV virus.  He's supposed to be on a Baba Wawa
	show on Friday (I think) where he discusses this.

	Kevin

Actually Kevin, down here they've been reporting it as full blown AIDS.

  I read that he knew he had the virus back in '88 when he last competed in
the Olympics. Now he's got the disease.

  Bummer, I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

  George

>  I read that he knew he had the virus back in '88 when he last competed in
>the Olympics. Now he's got the disease.

He also didn't say anything when he hit his head on the board, bled into
the pool, and had a doctor sew him up without wearing protective gloves.

        <<< Note 140.26 by OUTSRC::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>
                          -< now there's a shocker! >-
    
    Okay, I'll bite.  
    
    Mark.

    
  >>    <<< Note 140.27 by PCBUOA::LEFEBVRE "PCBU Asia/Pacific Marketing" >>>
  >>                           -< Please elaborate? >-

  >>      <<< Note 140.26 by OUTSRC::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>
  >>                        -< now there's a shocker! >-
    
  >>  Okay, I'll bite.  
    
  >>  Mark.

    Mark, we already know you BITE!!!!!
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
    
    

    Heerd it tonight that "Ballroom Dancing" has been named an Olympic
    Sport.
    
    AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
    
    MAKE ME PUKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Ballroom Dancing ain't no mortar freakin' sport!!!!!!!!
    
    Now, if they did it with sticks and bats and made it full contact, with
    blood being let and all, then it might qualify, but no sissified
    dipshit ballroom dancing.
    
    What's next???
    
    JaKe
    

    
    >>What's next???
    
    I'll answer my own question.
    
    What'll be next in the summer olympics is BINGO.
    
    Hell, ya ever see one of them old ladies weilding 20 bingo cards,
    smoking cigarettes like a fiend, and never dropping the ash, and
    drinking to beat the band, and it's an art, and who knows, according to
    the olympic committee it'll end up as a sport.
    
    JaKe
    

    
    
     Ice Hockey is an  olympic sport.
    
    

    Well, supposedly, 10-pin bowling, the REAL bowling, is already in, at
    least as a demonstration sport.
    
    JaKe
    

>   Well, supposedly, 10-pin bowling, the REAL bowling, is already in, at
>   least as a demonstration sport.

Will the bowlers be allowed to have a beer and a smoke during the
competition?

Steve

    Well I see the senior golfers play with a stogie and not a few have had
    something more than ginger in their tonic (not just seniors here).
    
    Pretty soon they'll get rid of discus and javelin because they're not
    sports (eg bringing in big bucks - which ballroom dancing does in
    Europe).

>(eg bringing in big bucks - which ballroom dancing does in
    Europe).

Not in the UK it don't.  Its probably in the Olympics because it's only
competitive event in the world that doesn't have cash involved!

    One (leap) year until the start of the 1996 Summer Olympics here in
    Hotlanta.  Hope the weather is better next summer than it is now!
    
    Have you sent in your ticket forms or bought your brick?
    
    UMDan

    
    	Yabbut speaking of the 1996 Summer 'pics, I heard on the radion
    the the Hotlanta 'pic committee has decided to trash a 75 year old
    tradition of releasing white doves (actually pigeons) into da air.
    Apparently this is supposed to symbolize the peaceful gathering of
    atheletes.
    	Da committee's reason was that they didn't want to piss off the
    animal rights activitists 'cause at the last games, a couple of da
    birds landed on the Olympic Flame Dish before it was lit.  When it was
    lit, WHOOSH!  Instant roast bird.......
    	Dey (da committee) said that releasing da birds exposed them to
    "unnecessary risk"!
    
    I remain,
    thinking that instead of releasing da birds, the committee did a "flip
    da bird"  ;^)
    kev
    

They'll just release them with little lanyards attached to their feet so they
don't fly into the roasting pan...8^)

    I was sorta hoping that they would allow the skeet teams to bring in
    their iron to take care of any wayward doves before they got to the
    flames...

    The people in charge (ACOG) were also concerned about releasing the
    doves at night and having them fly towards the lights and the crowd,
    thereby terrorizing the huddled masses (I kid you not).
    They may release dove shaped balloons instead.  Just wait till one of
    em hits the flame, drifts away and drops as a hunk of molten mylar onto
    the crowd.

    UMDan (who does NOT have opening ceremony tickets)
    

    The Atlanta Olympic Games [IMAGE] 
   
                 HOLOCAUST SWIMMING ROUTINE AXED BY GOVERNMENT
                                       
     French Swimmer
     
     June 6, 1996
     Web posted by: 12:15 a.m. EDT
     
     PARIS (AP) -- Sports minister Guy Drut on Wednesday ordered France's
     Olympic synchronized swimming team to drop any references to the
     Holocaust in its controversial routine.
     
     Set to music from Steven Spielberg's "Schindler's List," the routine
     re-enacted the arrival of Jewish women in the death camps, the
     selection by Nazi doctors and their final march to the gas chambers.
     
     
     The team had planned to perform the four-minute program at the
     Summer Games.
     
     In a statement, Drut said he ordered the team to remove any
     "allusions to the tragedy of the Shoah," which is the Hebrew word
     for the events that took the lives of 6 million Jews during the
     World War II.
     
     "There are subjects where we cannot run the risk of communicating
     messages which could be misinterpreted," Drut said.
     
     Wearing black bathing suits, the swimmers were to goose-step in
     German military style to the side of the pool before plunging in.
     The music also included chants sung in Jewish ghettos during the
     war.
     
     "The routine is ridiculous," said Henri Hajdenberg, head of the
     Representative Council of French Jewish Organizations. "It's
     tactless and in poor taste."
     
     Earlier this week, the French sports daily L'Equipe condemned the
     team for confusing entertainment with one of history's darkest
     periods.
     
     "France, especially France, should not present a 'show' of this kind
     in Atlanta," the paper said in an editorial.
     
     About 75,000 Jews, including 12,000 children, were deported from
     France to Nazi death camps during World War II. Only about 2,500
     returned.
     
     The team's technical director defended the program, saying it had
     "great emotional value."
     
     The swimmers said they had no intention of offending anyone, but
     that since synchronized swimming is a sport close to dance, no
     subject should be taboo.
     
     "The Duchesnays skated a program evoking torture in Chile," national
     trainer Odile Petit said, referring to the French ice dancers. "The
     Holocaust is closer to us. It touches us more closely, but the
     routine is in no way a parody. Our message is an appeal to combat
     racism."
     

I really wonder what dan'l's opinion would be.....

>>>     PARIS (AP) -- Sports minister Guy Drut on Wednesday ordered France's
>>>     Olympic synchronized swimming team to drop any references to the

        There's a "sport" that makes figure skating look good.

        How the heck did anyone ever convince the IOC that synchronized 
        swimming belongs in the Olympics?  When does the ballet team start 
        workouts? 

        CBB

  Do I see an invitation to start up the figure skating debate again?
Remember your side was losing badly when we quit earlier in the week.

  You guys just can't stay away from it.

  George

I don't know, George.  The guy stated his opinion about figure skating.
He didn't ask for a debate.

>  You guys just can't stay away from it.

Apparently it's a mutual problem.

    .47
    
    >How the heck did anyone ever convince the IOC that synchronized 
    >swimming belongs in the Olympics?  
    
    Probably the same people that convinced them to put Beach Volleyball in
    as well.
    
    
    CHARLEY:)

     ...and don't forget ballroom dancing.

    I'll try to get a little bit more active in this note (if anyone wants
    me to).  Time is getting short (42 days), and everyone is gearing up
    for the gridlock, etc.

    The great housing "get rich quick" schemes seem to have evaporated (not
    unlike LA in '84 from what I've read).  Not to say that some folks with
    nice homes in desirable areas haven't gotten big bucks, but that seems
    to be the exception, rather than the rule.

    Lots of stories on how tight security will be (I'm praying that no
    whackos try to make a "statement" by doing something dastardly, as no
    amount of security can really stop a determined madman, IMO).

    All in all it's going to be a really interesting time here in Hot'Lanta
    from July 19 through August 4 (then we have the Paralympics!).

    I'll try to add some notes about humorous events, general interest,
    etc.  Feel free to ask questions.

    Your humble Olympics reporter (?)

    UMDan

RE  <<< Note 140.49 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's Baseball And You're An American" >>>

>I don't know, George.  The guy stated his opinion about figure skating.
>He didn't ask for a debate.

  Ok no problem. Then I guess if I respond, I'm just "stating my opinion".

  George

So it's time to state opinions?

Wail, I think synchronized swimming, beach volley ball and figure skating
are plenty fine by me. Fencing, diving, team handball are all OK, too.

Now, MLB is a whole nother story...

TTom

  For summer I like track and field best. Especially the decathlon.

  Are either Dave or Dan around this time?

  George

I get 'em mixed up. I think the guy that din't make the cut is expected
to be there.

As for the summer olympics, it's always been one of my goals in live to
go to Vegas during 'em and see what all you could play. 

Main, it'd be a hoot to bet on some of these events. I'll leave it all
them purists to determine if'n they're all sprots.

TTom

  Dan was the guy who screwed up the pole vault last time and didn't make
the team. Dave was the older guy and he did make the team.

  George

Than I think it's Dan who's gonna be there.

I think the biggest story from the games will be the city of Atlanta.
Firsted of all, it's gonna be hotter'n hail. And then, don't fergit about
the fack that it'll prolly have gridlock on all the roads.

In their infinite wisdom, they built the new stadium right where they've
proven they can maximize the traffic jams.

And how is that homeless revolt going since they banned 'em? I wonder
where do you go when you're kicked off've the streets...

TTom

    Ttom,
    	I guess if you'd bet an exhibition football game you'd bet a
    "sport" which is decided by a panel of judges some of him make
    decisions either by whimsy or politics.
    
    Billl

If'n I could get the right line, I'd bet on which way the sun comes up in
the morning ;-]

I wish I could say I never bet MLB. Maybe I need to go over to CROW
again...

TTom

    
      Bravo, Roland. The verbal goosestepping every time some one makes
      even a vague reference to figure skating is wearying but I guess 
      that's the point of it. 

RE          <<< Note 140.60 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "wannabe figure skater" >>>

>      Bravo, Roland. The verbal goosestepping every time some one makes
>      even a vague reference to figure skating is wearying but I guess 
>      that's the point of it. 

  Speaking of which, her's the predictable goose step we all knew was coming
once I responded to the original note.

  Oh I forgot.

    Your side trashes figure skating - Opinion
    I respond                        - Goose Step
    Tommy responds to me             - Setting the record straight

  George

    Take it to the figure skating debate.  We don't have no steenkin'
    Figure Skating in the Summer Games, just poltically incorrect
    synchronized swimming!
    
    UMDan
    

>                            -< Mods, help please! >-

See, the heat's already starting to get to 'em :=]

So, Mr. Resident Olympic Reporter Type Guy from the Host City, how 'bout
a list of what the events are, fer starters.

Then we'd know when we're being inappropriate and not have to leave it
to chance...

TTom

    If y'all really want a list, I'll type it in, then we can set up a pool
    in certain events and have faux gamblin' like for other sports.
    
    Me, I'm rooting for the Beach Volleyball team from the island of Jose
    Cuervo.
    
    UMDan

I'm gonna be talking to ol' Joe Crow tonight.

"I've had too much tequila to feel you tonight"

TTom

  That list has to be huge, there are tons of events at the Summer Olympics. 

  The Globe was talking about how only a small percentage of the stuff will be
on TV. There should be lots of track but boxing will be down. Look for a lot of
things like beach volley ball which are "TV friendly" but don't expect to see
any sailing. 

  George

    Isn't roller skating in it?
    
    
    CHARLEY

>Look for a lot of
>things like beach volley ball which are "TV friendly" but don't expect to see
>any sailing.

Actually, not being "TV friendly" is one of the big problems for all kinds of
volleyball.  Beach volleyball has done the best in this regard by instituting
a clock, although I'm not sure what purists think of it.  I know they use this
for AVP - I'm not sure for FIVB.  Brews, do you have any idea?

Screw the clock.

What got me interested was the scantilly clad hard body females who
finally made the sport worth watching.

TTom

  Here's a list from : http://web.usatoday.com/olympics/olyev.htm

  George

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
04/07/96 - 01:27 PM ET - Click reload often for latest version

Summer Olympic events 

USA TODAY offers comprehensive coverage of each Summer Olympic
event. Click on the appropriate event below for a look at team rosters,
schedules and more. 

   Archery: men, women 
   Badminton: men, women 
   Baseball 
   Basketball: men, women 
   Boxing 
   Canoeing 
      Sprint: men, women 
      Slalom: men, women 
   Cycling 
      Road: men, women 
      Mountain bike: men, women 
      Track: men, women 
   Diving: men, women 
   Equestrian 
      Dressage 
      Stadium 
      Three-day 
   Fencing: men, women 
   Field hockey: men, women 
   Gymnastics 
      Artistic (classical): men, women 
      Rhythmic 
   Handball: men, women 
   Judo: men, women 
   Modern pentathlon 
   Rowing: men, women 
   Shooting: men, women 
   Soccer: men, women 
   Softball 
   Swimming: men, women 
   Synchronized swimming 
   Table tennis: men, women 
   Tennis: men, women 
   Track & field: men, women 
   Volleyball 
      Traditional: men, women 
      Beach: men, women 
   Water polo 
   Weightlifting 
   Wrestling 
      Freestyle 
      Greco-Roman 
   Yachting: men, women, open 

>   Equestrian 
>      Dressage 

when does the undressage start?

>   Yachting: men, women, open 

I guess this means anything goes?

TTom

    I thought that ballroom dancing was a demonstration sport in this 
    year's Olympics.
    
    
    pete

  Here's the roster for the '96 dream team from 

     http://web.usatoday.com/olympics/obk/obkmr.htm

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NO  NAME             POS HGT  WGT BIRTHDATE  NBA TEAM/UNIVERSITY
    Charles Barkley   F  6-5                 Phoenix/Auburn
6   Anfernee Hardaway G  6-7  200  07/18/72  Orlando Magic/Memphis State
5   Grant Hill        F  6-8  225  10/05/72  Detroit Pistons/Duke
11  Karl Malone       F  6-9  255  07/24/63  Utah Jazz/Louisiana Tech
10  Reggie Miller     G  6-7  190  08/24/65  Indiana Pacers/UCLA
15  Hakeem Olajuwon   C  7-0  250  01/21/63  Houston Rockets/Houston
13  Shaquille O'Neal  C  7-1  301  03/06/72  Orlando Magic/Louisiana State
8   Scottie Pippen    F  6-7  225  09/25/65  Chicago Bulls/Central Arkansas
    Mitch Richmond    G  6-5                 Sacramento/Kansas State
7   David Robinson    C  7-1  235  08/06/65  San Antonio Spurs/U.S. Navy
14  Glenn Robinson    F  6-8  225  01/10/73  Milwaukee Bucks/Purdue
12  John Stockton     G  6-1  175  03/26/62  Utah Jazz/Gonzaga

Coach: Lenny Wilkens(Atlanta Hawks)
Assistant coach: Jerry Sloan(Utah Jazz)
Assistant coach: Bobby Cremins(Georgia Tech)
Assistant coach: Clem Haskins(University of Minnesota)

  I didn't copy the player bios.

  George

>   Archery: men, women 

Archery is cool.


>   Fencing: men, women 

Fencing is hard -- quickness and strength blended together.


>   Shooting: men, women 

More info?  Large bore or small bore?



>   Synchronized swimming 

If I remember correctly, /Don had a synchronized swimming video that he and
JIm diNzMOre put together.  I remember at one point, jIm DinZMoRe actually
tickled (by accident) one of /Don's filberts....


>   Weightlifting 

Clean and Jerk, Snatch.


'Saw

July 20: preliminaries, 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m.
July 22: preliminaries, 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m.
July 24: preliminaries, 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m.
July 26: preliminaries, 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m.
July 28: preliminaries, 10 a.m., 5 p.m., 8:30 p.m.
July 30: quarterfinals, 10 a.m., classification 3 p.m., quarterfinals 8 p.m.
Aug. 1: classification, 10 a.m., semifinals, 8 p.m.
Aug. 2: final 7-8, 10 a.m., final 5-6, final 11-12, 8 p.m., final 9-10
Aug. 3: bronze medal game, 8 p.m., gold medal game.

  Track Info from: http://web.usatoday.com/olympics/otf/otfm.htm

Track events (15):
100 meters, 200m, 400m, 800m, 1500m, 5000m, 10,000m, 110m hurdles,
400m hurdles, 3000m Steeplechase, 400m relay, 1600m relay, 20K race walk,
50K race walk, Marathon. 

Field events (9):
High jump, pole vault, long jump, triple jump, shot put, discus, hammer
throw, javelin, decathlon. 

Competition format

Track: The competition consists of first and second rounds followed by
semifinal and final rounds. In the road events, the competition consists of a
final round only.
Field: The competition consists of qualifying and final rounds. 

The decathlon consists of ten events in which athletes compete over several
days. 

Team selection

Olympic trials for Track and Field will be June 14-21 in Atlanta, Ga. The
men's marathon trials will be Feb. 17 in Charlotte, N.C. The men's 50K
walk trials will be April 20 in LaGrange, Ga. 

Key competitions

The Olympic track and field trials are scheduled for June 14-21 in Atlanta. 

The Olympic men's track and field competition begins July 26 and ends with
the marathon on Aug. 4. Track and field will take place at Olympic Stadium
(Atlanta). The 400- and 1,600-meter relay finals will be on Aug. 3. The
decathlon competition is July 31-Aug. 

Click here for complete Olympic Games schedule. 

Coach

Erv Hunt, track and field coach at the University of California Berkeley, will
head the men's squad at the 1996 Atlanta games. He will be assisted by Doug
Brown (University of Florida), Charles Craig (Cal State-Bakersfield), Chick
Hislop (Weber State), Tony Naclerio (Rutgers) and George Williams (St.
Augustine's College). 

 

02/26/96 - 10:53 AM ET - Click reload often for latest version

More women's track and field: index, schedule, roster, coaches, trials 

Women's track and field schedule

July 26: 

100m (first round), 800m (round 1), 8 a.m. 

Javelin (qualifying), 100m (round 2), 5000m (round 1), 5:30 p.m. 

July 27: 

Heptathlon (100m hurdles, high jump), triple jump (qualifying), 400m
(round 1), 9:15 a.m. 

Heptathlon (shot put, 200m), 100m (semifinals and finals), 800m
(semifinals), javelin (finals), 10,000m (round 

1), 5:30 p.m. 

July 28: 

Marathon, heptathlon (long jump), discus (qualifying), 400m (round 2), 7:30
a.m. 

Heptathlon (javelin, 800m), 400m hurdles (round 1), triple jump (finals),
5,000m (final), 3:30 p.m. 

July 29: 

10K walk (finals), 200m (round 1), 8:30 a.m. 

200m (round 2), discus (final), 400m (semifnials), 400m hurdles
(semifinals), 6 p.m. 

July 31: 

1,500m (round 1), 100m hurdles (round 1) 

Shot put (qualifying), 100m hurdles (round 2), 200m (semifinals), 400m
hurdles (finals), 400m (finals), 5:15 p.m. 

Aug 1: 

High jump (qualifying), long jump (qualifying), 8 a.m. 

100m hurdles (semifinals and finals), 200m (finals), 1,500m (semifinals), 2
p.m. 

Aug 2: 

400m relay (round 1), 7:30 a.m. 

Shot put (finals), 400m relay (semifinals), long jump (finals), 1600m relay
(round 1), 10,000m (finals), 6 p.m. 

Aug. 3: 

High jump (finals), 400m relay (finals), 1500m (finals), 1600m relay
(finals), 6:30 p.m. 

   Go to top of page 
   Women's track and field front page 
   Atlanta '96 index 
   Olympics Schedule 
   Olympics events index 
   Atlanta city front page 
   Games weather page 

 

06/04/96 - 04:25 PM ET - Click reload often for latest version

Men's competition

                                

MEDALS AT MUNICH: U.S. Olympians won three medals at last week's
Munich (Germany) World Cup rifle and pistol match. Rob Harbison won
the gold in the men's three-position rifle; 18-year-old Jayme Dickman took
a silver in the women's air rifle; and Glenn Dubis won bronze in the men's
free rifle prone event. Pistol, rifle and running target shooters compete this
week in Milan, Italy, and the shotgun squad is in Lonato, Italy, for a World
Cup event. 

DUBIS IS THIRD AT MUNICH WORLD CUP: Three-time Olympian
Glenn Dubis won a shoot-off tie breaker to capture the bronze medal in
men's free rifle prone at the 1996 Munich World Cup. Dubis, a captain at
the U.S. Army Marksmanship Unit, scored 595 out of 600 possible points in
the preliminary round to put him in a three-way tie for third going into the
final. His final round score of 103.4 tied China's Lijia Ning. Dubis shot a
10.7/10.9 in the shoot-off to win the bronze medal, while Ning shot a 10.3
for fourth place. Serguei Martynov of Belarus won the gold with 702.3/709.
Germany's Olaf Hess shot 702.2 for the silver. 

OVERHEARD: Olympic skeet shooter Bill Roy of Alamogordo, N.M., has
five daughters. His community activities include being scoutmaster of a Boy
Scout troop. ''I figured I'd better help raise some good boys for those
daughters of mine,'' the Air Force major says. 

WORLD CUP COMPETITION TO TEST '96 OLYMPIANS: For the
last time before the Olympic Summer Games, the 1996 U.S. Olympic
Shooting Team will be up against the best shooters in the world at four
European world cups this summer beginning in Munich, Germany, May
27-30. "The Munich World Cup is traditionally well-attended and very
competitive," said National Rifle Team Coach Bob Mitchell. "Especially this
Olympic year, I expect scores to be high and competition to be good." 

TOPS IN SHOTS: The United States won more medals than any other
country, seven, at the Atlanta World Cup tournament. Belarus was second
with five. 

SHOOTING FOR GOLD: When '92 Olympian Roger Mar goes to
practice shooting, he may not take his pistol - he may take his camera. Mar,
a rapid-fire pistol shooter who trains in Colorado Springs, does free-lance
photography when he isn't practicing at the OTC range or studying for his
business degree from the University of Colorado-Colorado Springs. He has
photographed events for U.S. Olympic Committee publications and other
sports governing bodies. Mar, 27, won last week's rapid-fire selection match
in Atlanta, to advance to the final selection match at the North American
Shooting Championships April 15-17 in Atlanta. Up to 10 shooters will be
named to the U.S. Olympic pistol team at the event. 

USA SHOOTING CREATES INFORMATION HOTLINE: Shooting
enthusiasts now have another way to support the U.S. shooting team and get
their questions answered as well. USA Shooting has established its own
information hotline that will include results, event details, and the latest
updates on team happenings. The 900-line will be updated every week and
will include a listing of USA Shooting staff phone numbers. Cost for the 900
call is $1.49 a minute, with the average call lasting three minutes. Callers
must be 18 years or older or have parental permission to call the line.
Proceeds from the line will benefit the U.S. Shooting Team and support
other USA Shooting programs. Call 1-900-7 US TEAM
(1-900-787-8326) for the latest on USA Shooting and the U.S. Shooting
Team. 

Medal events

Ten medal events in four disciplines: rifle, pistol, shotgun and running
target. The events are: 50m free pistol, 25m rapid fire pistol, 10m air pistol,
50m free rifle three position, 50m free rifle prone, 10m air rifle, trap, double
trap, skeet and 10m running target. 

Competition format

Athletes fire a qualification or preliminary round for each event. The top
eight (rifle and pistol events) or top six (shotgun and running target events)
shooters advance to the final rounds. Placement in the finals is determined
by total score of the qualification and final rounds. 

Team selection

Twenty-two men were chosen. Individual shooters with the highest scores
in certain competitions in 1995 and 1996 will fill the quota spots. Shooters
must fire a minimum qualifying score (MQS) to be eligible. The competition
must be a world championship, a world cup or continental championship. 

Click here for men's shooting roster. 
Click here for women's shooting roster. 

Key competitions

Click here for results of key competitions. 

Rifle: 
March 28-April 7: Three event course, three finals, Wolf Creek Shooting
Complex, Atlanta 

Pistol: 
March 28-April 7: Olympic Trials, top four shooters.
April 15-17: North American Shooting Championships, Wolf Creek
Shooting Complex, Atlanta. 

Shotgun: 
March 28-April 7: Olympic Trials. 

Running target: 
January: Preliminary selection match, up to eight shooters. 
February: Preliminary selection match, top five shooters. 
March 28-April 7: Olympic Trials.
April 18-29: Atlanta UIT Shooting World Cup, Wolf Creek Shooting
Complex, Atlanta. 

ACOG-hosted competition: 
April 22-29, 1996: Atlanta UIT Shooting World Cup. 

Olympic competition

Venue: Wolf Creek Shooting Complex, Atlanta, Ga. 

Click here for Olympic shooting schedule. 

Coaches

Pistol: Erich Buljung
Running Target: Sergey Luzov
Rifle: Robert Mitchell
Shotgun: Lloyd Woodhouse 

Under the guidance of these four coaches, U.S. shooters have earned all but
one of the 32 quota slots allowed to each country for the 1996 Olympics. 

Click here for Olympic coaches' biographies. 


   Go to top of page 
   Atlanta '96 front page 
   Atlanta '96 index 
   Sports front page 

 

05/02/96 - 03:23 PM ET - Click reload often for latest version

More men's shooting: schedule, coaches, trials 

Men's shooting team roster 



Men's air rifle: Glenn Dubis, Rob Harbison, Bob Foth 

Men's trap: Josh Lakatos, Bret Erickson, Lance Bade 

Men's double trap: Lance Bade, David Alcoriza, John Oppio 

Men's prone rifle: Eric Uptagrafft, Bill Meek 

Men's skeet: Bill Roy, Todd Graves, George Quigley 

Men's 3x40 rifle: Glenn Dubis, Rob Harbison, Ken Johnson 

Men's free pistol: Ben Amonette, Neal Caloia, Greg Derr 

Men's rapid fire pistol: John McNally, Roger Mar, Terry Anderson 

Men's air pistol: Neal Caloia, Ben Amonette 

Men's running target: Adam Saathoff


   Go to top of page 
   Men's shooting front page 
   Atlanta '96 index 
   Olympics Schedule 
   Olympics events index 
   Atlanta city front page 
   Games weather page 

 

05/02/96 - 05:39 PM ET - Click reload often for latest version

More women's shooting: schedule, coaches, trials 

Women's shooting team roster 



Women's 3x20 rifle: Elizabeth Bourland, Jean Foster, Jayme Dickman 

Women's double trap: Kim Rhode, Terry DeWitt 

Women's air rifle: Nancy Napolski, Elizabeth Bourland 

Women's air pistol: JoAnn Sevin, Rebecca Snyder 

Women's sport pistol: Connie Petracek, Libby Callahan


   Go to top of page 
   Women's shooting front page 
   Atlanta '96 index 
   Olympics Schedule 
   Olympics events index 
   Atlanta city front page 
   Venues 
   Games weather page 

http://web.usatoday.com/olympics/olysca.htm

Summer Olympics schedule

The competition schedule for the 1996 Olympics, with sport, venue, date,
type of competition, starting time and range of ticket prices (all times EDT):


Opening Ceremony

Olympic Stadium 

Tickets $212-$637 

July 19 8:30 p.m.


Archery

Stone Mountain, Ga. 

Tickets $11-$27 

July 29 Women's preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 30 Men's preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 31 Women's preliminaries 9 a.m., finals 2 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Men's preliminaries 9 a.m., finals 2 p.m. 

Aug. 2 Women's and men's team finals, quarterfinals, semifinals 9 a.m.;
women's and men's team finals 1:30 p.m.


Badminton

Georgia State University, Atlanta 

Tickets $16-$38 

July 24 Women's and men's singles preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 25 Women's doubles, men's doubles, men's singles preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 26 Women's singles, men's singles, mixed doubles preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 27 Women's singles, men's and women's doubles, mixed doubles
preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 28 Men's and women's doubles quarterfinals 9 a.m. 

July 28 Women's and men's singles quarterfinals 8 p.m. 

July 29 Mixed doubles quarterfinal, women's doubles semifinal 9 a.m. 

July 30 Women's and men's singles semifinals, women's and men's doubles
bronze medal 9 a.m. 

July 31 Women's and men's doubles gold medal, women's and men's singles
bronze medal, mixed doubles bronze medal 9 a.m. 

Aug. 1 Women's and men's singles gold medal, mixed doubles gold medal 9
a.m.


Baseball

Atlanta Fulton County Stadium 

Tickets $7-$64 

July 20 Preliminaries 10.a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 21 Preliminaries 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 22 Preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 23 Preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 24 Preliminaries 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 25 Preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 27 Preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 28 Preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 29 Preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 30 Preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Semifinals 2 p.m., 7 p.m. 

Aug. 2 Bronze and gold medal games 2 p.m., 7 p.m.


Basketball

Atlanta University Center, Georgia Dome 

Tickets $11-$265 

July 20 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 21 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 22 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 23 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 24 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 25 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 26 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 27 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 28 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 5 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 29 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 30 Men's quarterfinals and classification 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

July 31 Women's classification and quarterfinals 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Men's and women's classification, men's semifinals 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8
p.m. 

Aug. 2 Men's classification, Women's semifinals, 10 a.m., 3 p.m., 8 p.m. 

Aug. 3 Women's classification, men's bronze and gold medals 10 a.m., 3
p.m., 8 p.m. 

Aug. 4 Women's bronze and gold medals 9:30 a.m.


Boxing

Georgia Tech 

Tickets $27-$186 

July 20 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 21 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 22 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 23 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 24 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 25 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 26 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 27 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 28 Preliminaries 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 30 Quarterfinals 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

July 31 Quarterfinals 1:30 p.m. and 8 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Semifinals light flyweight, bantamweight, lightweight, middleweight,
heavyweight, 8 p.m. 

Aug. 2 Semifinals flyweight, featherweight, light welterweight, light
middleweight, light heavyweight, super heavyweight, 8 p.m. 

Aug. 3 Gold medals lightweight, light flyweight, bantamweight, lightweight,
welterweight, middleweight, heavyweight, 1:30 p.m. 

Aug. 4 Gold medals flyweight, featherweight, light welterweight, light
middleweight, light heavyweight, super heavyweight, 1:30 p.m.


Canoe-Kayaking

Tickets $11-$32 

Slalom 

Ocoee River, Cleveland, Tenn. 

July 26 Training runs 10 a.m. 

July 27 Women's K-1 finals, men's C-1 finals 10 a.m. 

July 28 Men's C-2 finals, men's K-1 finals 10 a.m. Sprint 

Lake Lanier, Gainesville, Ga. 

July 30 Men's 1000 meter kayak and canoe, all classes; women's 500 meter
K-4, preliminaries 9 a.m., repechage 2:30 p.m. 

July 31 Men's 500 meter kayak and canoe, all classes; women's 500 meter
K-1 and K-2, preliminaries 9 a.m., repechage 2:30 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Men's 1000 meter kayak and canoe, all classes; women's 500 meter
K-4, semifinals, 9 a.m. 

Aug. 2 Men's 500 meter kayak and canoe, all classes; women's 500 meter
K-1 and K-2, semifinals 9 a.m. 

Aug. 3 Men's 1000 meter kayak and canoe, all classes; women's 500 meter
K-4, finals 9 a.m. 

Aug. 4 Men's 500 meter kayak and canoe, all classes; women's 500 meter
K-1 and K-2, finals 9 a.m.


Cycling

Mountain Bike Racing 

Georgia International Horse Park 

Tickets $16 

July 30 Women's and men's individual cross country 10 a.m. 

Road Racing 

Atlanta 

Free 

July 21 Women's road race 11 a.m. 

July 31 Men's road race 8:30 a.m. 

Aug. 3 Women's and men's individual time trial 8:30 a.m. Track Racing 

Stone Mountain Park 

Tickets $27-$37 

July 24 Men's individual pursuit qualifying and quarterfinal, women's and
men's 200 meter sprint qualifying, men's 1 kilometer time trial final 10 a.m.
aqnd 4:30 p.m. 

July 25 Women's individual pursuit qualifying, men's individual pursuit
semifinal, men's 200 meter sprint qualifying, women's sprint octos final,
men's and women's sprint repechage, men's individual pursuit final 9 a.m. 

July 26 Men's team pursuit qualifying, women's sprint quarterfinal TB,
men's team pursuit quarterfinals, women's sprint semifinals and semifinal
TB, women's individual pursuit quarterfinal, women's sprint 5-8 final 8:30
a.m. 

July 27 Men's sprint quarterfinal, women's individual pursuit semifinal,
men's team pursuit semifinal, men's and women's sprint final, men's spring
quarterfinal TB, women's sprint final TB, men's sprint semifinal and
semifinal TB, men's sprint 5-8 final, men's team pursuit final 11:15 a.m. 

July 28 Women and men's points race final, men's sprint final, women's
individual pursuit final 11:15 a.m.


Diving

Georgia Tech 

Tickets $22-$159 

July 26 Women's platform preliminaries 3 p.m. 

July 27 Women's platform semifinal and final 11:30 a.m. 

July 28 Men's springboard preliminaries 8 p.m. 

July 29 Men's springboard semifinal and final 11:30 a.m. 

July 30 Women's springboard preliminaries 8 p.m. 

July 31 Women's springboard semifinal and final 11:30 a.m. 

Aug. 1 Men's platform preliminaries 8 p.m. 

Aug. 2 Men's platform semifinal and final 10 p.m.


Equestrian

Georgia International Horse Park 

Tickets $11-$79 

Dressage 

July 27 Team preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 29 Team preliminaries and finals 8:30 a.m. 

July 31 Individual 10 a.m. 

Aug. 3 Individual freestyle final 9 a.m. 

Jumping 

July 29 Jumping qualifier 8:30 a.m. 

Aug. 1 Team jumping preliminary and final 8:30 a.m. 

Aug. 4 Individual jumping final 10 a.m. 

Three Day 

July 21 Team dressage preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 22 Team dressage preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 23 Team speed and endurance, individual dressage 7 a.m. 

July 24 Team jumping and individual dressage 9 a.m. 

July 25 Individual speed, endurance 7:30 a.m. 

July 26 Individual jumping 11 a.m.


Fencing

Georgia World Congress Center 

Tickets $11-$27 

July 20 Men's individual epee, preliminaries, quarterfinals, semifinals,
bronze and gold medals 10 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 21 Women's individual epee preliminaries, quarterfinals, semifinals,
bronze and gold medals 8 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 22 Women's and men's individual foil, preliminaries, quarterfinals,
semifinals, bronze and gold medals 8 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 23 Men's team epee, preliminaries, quarterfinals, semifinals, bronze and
gold medals 10 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 24 Women's team epee, preliminaries, quarterfinals and semifinals;
men's team sabre, preliminaries, quarterfinals and semifinals 8 a.m. and 3
p.m. 

July 25 Women's and men's team foil preliminaries, quarterfinals,
semifinals, bronze and gold medals 8 a.m. and 3 p.m.


Gymnastics

Artistic 

Georgia Dome 

Training 

Tickets $11-$22 

July 15 Men's compulsory training 11 a.m. 

July 16 Women's compulsory training 12 p.m. 

July 17 Men's optional training 11 a.m. 

July 18 Women's optional training 12 p.m. 

Competition 

Tickets $27-$265 

July 20 Men's team compulsories 9:15 a.m. 

July 21 Women's team compulsories 9:30 a.m. 

July 22 Men's team optionals and final 9:15 a.m. 

July 23 Women's team optionals and final 9:30 a.m. 

July 24 Men's individual all-around final 4:15 p.m. 

July 25 Women's individual all-around final 4:15 p.m. 

July 28 Men's floor exercise final, men's pommel horse final, men's rings
final, women's vault final, women's uneven bars final 9:30 p.m. 

July 29 Men's vault final, men's parallel bars final, men's high bars final,
women's floor exercise final 7:30 p.m. 

July 30 Gymnastics exhibition 4 p.m. 

Rythmic 

University of Georgia, Athens 

Tickets $25-$53 

Aug. 1 Individual and group preliminaries 10 a.m. 

Aug. 2 Individual preliminaries and group finals 10 a.m. 

Aug. 3 Individual semifinals 10 a.m. 

Aug. 4 Individual finals 1 p.m.


Handball

Georgia World Congress Center, Georgia Dome 

Tickets $16-$27 

July 24 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 25 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 26 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 27 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 28 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 29 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 30 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 31 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m. 

Aug. 1 Women's semifinals and classification 10 a.m. 

Aug. 2 Men's semifinals and classification 10 a.m. 

Aug. 3 Women's bronze and gold medal 3:30 p.m. 

Aug. 4 Men's bronze and gold medal 3 p.m.


Field Hockey

Atlanta University Center 

Tickets $11-$27 

July 20 Men's and women's preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 21 Men's and women's preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 22 Men's and women's preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 23 Men's and women's preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 24 Men's and women's preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 25 Men's and women's preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 26 Men's and women's preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 27 Men's and women's preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 28 Men's and women's preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 29 Men's and women's preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 30 Women's preliminaries 9 a.m. 

July 31 Men's classification and semifinals 8:30 a.m. 

Aug. 1 Women's bronze and gold medals, classification 8:30 a.m. 

Aug. 2 Men's bronze and gold medals, classification 9 a.m.


Judo

Georgia World Congress Center 

Tickets $22-$43 

July 20 Women's heavyweight (over 72kg) and men's heavyweight (over
95kg) preliminaries, repechages, finals 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 21 Women's half-heavyweight (72kg) and men's half-heavyweight
(95kg) and preliminaries, repechages, finals 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 22 Women's middleweight (66kg) and men's middleweight (86kg)
preliminaries, repechages, finals 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 23 Women's half-middleweight (61kg) and men's half-middleweight
(78kg) preliminaries, repechages, finals 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 24 Women's lightweight (56kg) and men's lightweight (71kg)
preliminaries, repechages, finals 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 25 Women's half-lightweight (51kg) and men's half-lightweight
(65kg) preliminaries, repechages, finals 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. 

July 26 Women's extra-lightweight (48kg) and men's extra-lightweight
(60kg) preliminaries, repechages, finals 9:30 a.m. and 3 p.m. 


Modern Pentathalon

Multiple sites 

Tickets $27 

July 30 finals, shooting 7:30 a.m.; fencing 9:15 a.m.; swimming 1:45 p.m.;
riding 5 p.m.; running 7 p.m.


Rowing

Lake Lanier, Gainesville, Ga. 

Tickets $11-$32 

July 21 Men's and women's heats 9 a.m. 

July 22 Men's and women's heats 9 a.m. 

July 23 Men's and women's repechages 9 a.m. 

July 24 Men's and women's repechages 9 a.m. 

July 25 Men's and women's semifinals 9 a.m. 

July 26 Men's and women's semifinals 9 a.m. 

July 27 Finals, men's and women's coxless pairs, men's and women's double
sculls, men's coxless fours, men's and women's single sculls, 9 a.m. 

July 28 Finals, men's and women's light double sculls, men's lightweight
coxless fours, men's and women's quadruple sculls, men's and women's
eights, 9 a.m.


Shooting

Wolf Creek Shooting Complex 

Tickets $22 

July 20 Women's 10m air rifle preliminaries and final, men's trap
preliminaries, men's 10m air pistol preliminaries and final 9 a.m. 

July 21 Men's trap preliminaries and final, women's 10m air pistol
preliminaries and final 9 a.m. 

July 22 Men's 10m air rifle preliminaries and final 10 a.m. 

July 23 Men's 50m free pistol preliminaries and final, women's double trap
preliminaries and final 9 a.m. 

July 24 Women's 50m 3X20 rifle preliminaries and final, men's double trap
preliminaries and final, men's 25m rapid fire pistol preliminaries and final
8:30 a.m. 

July 25 Men's 50m prone rifle preliminaries and final, men's 10m run target
preliminaries, men's 25m rapid fire pistol preliminaries and final 8:30 a.m. 

July 26 Women's 25m sport pistol preliminaries and final, men's 10m run
target prelims and final, men's skeet preliminaries 8:30 a.m. 

July 27 Men's 50m 3X40 rifle preliminaries and final, men's skeet
preliminaries and final 8:30 a.m.


Soccer

Tickets $20-$133 

Preliminaries 

RFK Stadium, Washington, D.C. 

July 20 Men's 3 p.m. 

July 21 Men's and women's 3 p.m. 

July 22 Men's 7:30 p.m. 

July 23 Men's and women's 6:30 p.m. 

July 24 Men's 7:30 p.m. 

July 25 Men's and women's 6:30 p.m. 

Citrus Bowl, Orlando, Fla. 

July 20 Men's 6:30 p.m. 

July 21 Men's and women's 4 p.m. 

July 22 Men's 7 p.m. 

July 23 Men's and women's 6 p.m. 

July 24 Men's 7 p.m. 

July 25 Men's and women's 6:30 p.m. 

Legion Field, Birmingham, Ala. 

July 20 Men's 7:30 p.m. 

July 21 Men's and women's 2:30 p.m. 

July 22 Men's 6:30 p.m. 

July 23 Men's and women's 5:30 p.m. 

July 24 Men's 6:30 p.m. 

July 25 Men's and women's 6:30 p.m. 

Quarterfinals 

Legion Field, Birmingham, Ala. 

July 27 Men's 7:30 p.m. 

July 28 Men's 4 p.m. 

Orange Bowl, Miami 

July 27 Men's 6 p.m. 

July 28 Men's 6 p.m. 

Semifinals 

University of Georgia, Athens 

July 28 Women's 3 p.m. 

July 31 Men's 3 p.m. 

Medal Rounds 

University of Georgia, Athens, Ga. 

Aug. 1 Women's bronze and gold medals 6 p.m. 

Aug. 2 Men's bronze medal 8 p.m. 

Aug. 3 Men's gold medal 3:30 p.m.


Softball

Columbus, Ga. 

Tickets $16-$32 

July 21 Preliminaries 9 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

July 22 Preliminaries 9 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

July 23 Preliminaries 9 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

July 24 Preliminaries 9 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

July 25 Preliminaries 9 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

July 26 Preliminaries 9 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

July 27 Preliminaries 9 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

July 29 Semifinals 6:30 p.m. 

July 30 Bronze and gold medals 4:30 p.m.


Swimming

Georgia Tech 

Tickets $27-$159 

July 20 Women's 100-meter freestyle, men's 100 breaststroke, women's 400
individual medley, men's 200 free, preliminaries 10:05 a.m., finals 7:33 p.m. 

July 21 Women's 200 free, men's 400 IM, women's 100 breast, men's 4X200
free relay, preliminaries 10:05 a.m., finals 7:33. 

July 22 Women's 400 free, men's 100 free, women's 100 backstrokes 200
butterfly, women's 4X100 free relay, preliminaries 10:05 a.m., finals 7:33. 

July 23 Men's 400 free, women's 200 breast, men's 100 back, women's 100
fly, men's 4X100 free relay, preliminaries 10:05 a.m., finals 7:33. 

July 24 Men's 200 breast, women's 200 IM, men's 100 fly, women's 4X100
medley relay, preliminaries 10:05 a.m., finals 7:33; women's 800 free,
preliminaries 10:05 a.m. 

July 25 Men's 50 free, women's 200 back, men's 200 medley, women's 4 by
200 free, preliminaries 10:05 a.m., finals 7:33 p.m.; men's 1500 free,
preliminaries 10:05 a.m.; women's 800 free finals, 7:33 p.m. 

July 26 Women's 200 fly, men's 200 back, women's 50 free, men's 4 by 100
medley, preliminaries 10:05 a.m., finals 7:33 p.m.; men's 1500 free, finals
7:33 p.m.


Synchronized Swimming

Georgia Tech 

Tickets $11-$48 

July 30 Team preliminaries 10 a.m. 

Aug. 2. Team finals 5 p.m.


Table Tennis

Georgia World Congress Center 

Tickets $11-$27 

July 23 Women's and men's doubles preliminaries 10:30 a.m. 

July 24 Women's singles preliminaries 10:30 a.m. 

July 25 Women's and men's doubles preliminaries, men's singles
preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 26 Men's and women's singles preliminaries, women's doubles
quarterfinal, men's singles preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 27 Men's singles preliminaries, women's singles octos, men's doubles
quarterfinal, women's doubles semifinals 10 a.m. 

July 28 Men's singles octos 10 a.m. 

July 29 Women's doubles final, women's singles quarterfinal, men's doubles
semifinal 1 p.m. 

July 30 Men's doubles final, men's singles quarterfinal, women's singles
semifinal 1 p.m. 

July 31 Women's singles final, Men's singles semifinal 4:30 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Men's singles final 4:30 p.m.


Tennis

Stone Mountain, Ga. 

Tickets $27-$132 

July 23 Men's and women's singles preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 24 Men's and women's singles preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 25 Men's and women's singles and doubles preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 26 Men's and women's singles and doubles preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 27 Men's and women's singles and doubles preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 28 Men's singles and doubles preliminaries 10 a.m. 

July 29 Women's singles and men's doubles quarterfinal 10 a.m. 

July 30 Men's singles and women's doubles quarterfinal 11 a.m. 

July 31 Women's singles, women's and men's doubles, semifinals 11 a.m. 

Aug. 1 Men's singles semifinal; women's and men's doubles bronze medal
11 a.m. 

Aug. 2 Women's singles bronze and gold medals, men's doubles gold medal
10 a.m. 

Aug. 3 Men's singles bronze and gold medals, women's doubles gold medal


Track and Field

Olympic Stadium 

Schedule of events-be determined 

Tickets $22-$265 

July 26 Preliminaries and finals 7 a.m. and 6 p.m. 

July 27 Preliminaries and finals 10 a.m. and 7:30 p.m. 

July 28 Preliminaries and finals 8:05 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

July 29 Preliminaries and finals 9:30 a.m. and 7:30 p.m. 

July 31 Preliminaries and finals 9:30 a.m. and 5:30 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Preliminaries and finals 8 a.m. and 1 p.m. 

Aug. 2 Preliminaries and finals 8:30 a.m. and 6:30 p.m. 

Aug. 3 Finals 7 p.m.


Beach Volleyball

Atlanta Beach, Clayton County, Ga. 

Tickets $27-$69 

July 23 Women's and men's preliminaries 9 a.m. and 2 p.m. 

July 24 Women's and men's preliminaries 9 a.m. and 2 p.m. 

July 25 Women's and men's preliminaries 9 a.m. and 2 p.m. 

July 26 Women's and men's preliminaries, women's semifinal 9 a.m. and 2
p.m. 

July 27 Men's semifinal, women's bronze and gold medals 10 a.m. and 2 p.m.

July 28 Men's bronze and gold medals 11:30 a.m.


Volleyball

University of Georgia and Omni Coliseum 

Tickets $16-$133 

July 20 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 21 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 22 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 23 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 24 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 25 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 26 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 27 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 28 Women's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 29 Men's preliminaries 10 a.m., 4 p.m., 7:30 p.m. 

July 30 Women's quarterfinals 7:30 p.m. 

July 31 Men's classification and quarterfinals, noon and 7:30 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Women's classification and semifinals, noon and 7:30 p.m. 

Aug. 2 Men's classification and semifinals noon and 7:30 p.m. 

Aug. 3 Women's bronze and gold medals noon 

Aug. 4 Men's bronze and gold medals noon


Water Polo

Georgia Tech 

Tickets $11-32 

July 20 Preliminaries 11 a.m., 3:30 p.m., 8:30 p.m. 

July 21 Preliminaries 11 a.m., 3:30 p.m., 8:30 p.m. 

July 22 Preliminaries 11 a.m., 3:30 p.m., 8:30 p.m. 

July 23 Preliminaries 11 a.m., 3:30 p.m., 8:30 p.m. 

July 24 Preliminaries 11 a.m., 3:30 p.m., 8:30 p.m. 

July 26 Preliminaries 10:30 a.m., 4 p.m., 8:30 p.m. 

July 27 Classification and semifinals 11 a.m., 3:30 p.m., 8:30 p.m. 

July 28 Classifications 8 a.m. and 11:30 a.m.; bronze and gold medals 3 p.m.


Weightlifting

Georgia World Congress Center 

Tickets $22-$43 

July 20 54kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 21 59kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 22 64kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 23 70kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 24 76kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 26 83kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 27 91kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 28 99kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 29 108kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m. 

July 30 over 108kg Group B 12:30 p.m., Group A 3:30 p.m.


Wrestling

Georgia World Congress Center 

Tickets $22-$43 

Freestyle 

July 30 48kg, 57kg, 68kg, 82kg, and 100kg preliminaries and classification
9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

July 31 48kg, 57kg, 68kg, 82kg, and 100kg classification, bronze and gold
medals 9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

Aug. 1 52kg, 62kg, 74kg, 90kg, 130kg preliminaries and classification 9:30
a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

Aug. 2 52kg, 62kg, 74kg, 90kg, 130kg classification, bronze and gold medals
9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

Greco-Roman 

July 20 48kg, 57kg, 68kg, 82kg, and 100kg preliminaries and classification
9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

July 21 48kg, 57kg, 68kg, 82kg, and 100kg classification, bronze and gold
medals 9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

July 22 52kg, 62kg, 74kg, 90kg, 130kg preliminaries and classification 9:30
a.m. and 3:30 p.m. 

July 23 52kg, 62kg, 74kg, 90kg, 130kg classification, bronze and gold medals
9:30 a.m. and 3:30 p.m.


Yachting

Wassaw Sound, Savannah, Ga. 

Ticket prices TBD 

July 22 Men's and women's Mistral, men's and women's 470, Star, Finn
1p.m. 

July 23 Men's and women's Mistral, men's and women's 470, Star, Finn
1p.m. 

July 24 Men's and women's Mistral, men's and women's 470, Star, Finn,
Soling, Tornado 1 p.m. 

July 25 Laser, Europe, Soling, Tornado 1 p.m. 

July 26 Laser, Europe, Star, Finn, Soling, Tornado 1 p.m. 

July 27 Men's and women's Mistral, Laser, Europe, Star, Finn, Soling,
Tornado 1 p.m. 

July 28 Men's and women's Mistral, Men's and women's 470, Star finals,
Finn finals, Soling 1 p.m. 

July 29 Men's and women's Mistral finals, men's and women's 470, Laser,
Europe, Tornado 1 p.m. 

July 30 Men's and women's 470 finals, Laser, Europe, Tornado finals 

July 31 Soling match races, Laser finals, Europe finals 1 p.m. 

Aug. 1 Soling match race finals 1 p.m.


Closing Ceremony

Olympic Stadium 

Tickets $212-$636 

Aug. 4 - 9 p.m. 


   Atlanta '96 index 
   Schedule index 
   Events index 
   Atlanta city front page 
   Games weather page 

Thanks for the shooting info George.  I appreciate it....

  If you have tickets for the Olympics, heads up.

  From http://web.usatoday.com/sports/sd.htm

Olympic tickets have wrong times

ATLANTA - Some tickets to the Summer Olympics have the wrong
starting time because of schedule changes made after the tickets were
printed. Olympic organizers said they will send ticket buyers a notice of the
changes, but will not give refunds or exchanges because of the changes.
About 170,000 tickets include the wrong time, according to the Atlanta
Committee for the Olympic Games. About 3.8 million tickets have been
sold in the United States, and deliveries started last week. Organizers said
most of the changes are the result of requests from NBC, which will televise
the Games, and sports federations as well as attempts to minimize traffic
jams. 

  George

>>   Weightlifting 

 >Clean and Jerk, Snatch.

Can you say snatch in this notesfile?  

RE Beach VB and a clock"

AVP is the only place where they use the clock, I believe.  It's a TV thing. 
 The tournaments I'm in certainly don't use it (and since I'm 15 years older 
than my competition, I appreciate it).

brews

>RE Beach VB and a clock"
>
>AVP is the only place where they use the clock, I believe.  It's a TV thing. 
> The tournaments I'm in certainly don't use it (and since I'm 15 years older 
>than my competition, I appreciate it).

Even without the clock, beach volleyball is still a little more TV-friendly
than indoor.  Beach has the players switch sides (a la tennis) throughout
the match.  Side switch = time to run the commercials.  Also, points go
more quickly in a two-on-two match.

Indoor volleyball has longer rallies, mostly because it's six-on-six, and is
harder to break away from.

Did someone say something about the Dream Team.

here's the schedule:

   July 1-5: Dream Team training camp (Moody Bible Institute, Chicago)
   July 6: Dream Team vs. USAB Select Team (Auburn Hills, Mich.)
   July 7: Dream Team vs. TBA (Cleveland)
   July 8-9: Dream Team training camp (Phoenix)
   July 10: Dream Team vs. Chinese Olympic team (Phoenix)
   July 12: Dream Team vs. Australian Olympic team (Salt Lake City)
   July 14: Dream Team vs. Greek Olympic team (Indianapolis)
   July 20-Aug. 3: Men's Olympic basketball competition (Atlanta)

TTom

I don't know if'n I like that Moody part.

    
    I wish they'd drop the term "Dream Team", it has literally gotten old.
    
    Isn't USA Men's Basketball team good enough?
    
    

    
  >> Isn't USA Men's Basketball team good enough?
    
     Yeah, but it doesn't have the marketing cachet and that's
     what it's really all about, isn't it?
    
    

Hail, now they got the Ladies Dream Team!~

There was only one Dream Team. They showed the rest of the world that
they could kick their ass, easy.

Now they should go back to using college players. You put 'em on a team
and let 'em play as a team for a while, not just a couple of games, and
they could compete with the semi-pros from other countries.

All this talk of who's the best reminds me of pretty fair team the U.S.
of A fielded for the 60 games. Jerry West and Oscar Robertson started at
guards.

TTom

    Congrats to Mary Decker Slaney for qualifying for the Olympics on the
    5000 meters.  She finished second to local gal Lynn Jennings, which is
    a great finish for someone who's about 60 or so like Slaney.
    
    NAZZ

    
    	More like 37 or 38 which is probably close to 60 in track years. 
    :*)
    
    Claybone

Mary Decker Slaney - the whiny precursor to Nancy Kerrigan.

>    	More like 37 or 38 which is probably close to 60 in track years. 
>    :*)
>    
>    Claybone

You guys is BRUTAL.  37 or 38 ain't so old you know.....

    
    
    Really, I'd love to be 37 again!!

    
> Mary Decker Slaney - the whiny precursor to Nancy Kerrigan.
    
    Worse...
    
    
    glenn
    

    
      When fate dealt Slaney a bad hand she reacted with a competitor's
     fire. When fate dealt Nancy Kerrigan a bad hand she creid, "Why
     me ?!?!?"

>      When fate dealt Slaney a bad hand she reacted with a competitor's
>     fire. When fate dealt Nancy Kerrigan a bad hand she creid, "Why
>     me ?!?!?"

Slaney continued to blame Budd for the collision even though it was no
one's fault - something that sometimes happens when running in a pack.

Slaney has since admitted that it wasn't Budd's fault, and has said that
her relative inexperience in running in a pack was probably a contributing
factor in the collision.  (From a Boston Globe article within the last couple
of days.)

She has not, however, indicated that she has apologized to Zola Budd for
her false accusations.

A competitor might have gotten p.o'd on the field, but a competitor with any
class wouldn't have done that kind of whining after the fact.

I will grant that Kerrigan edges her out in a whine-off...

RE: .100 (Mike Heiser)

If I remember right, she may have been in enough pain so she couldn't run
well enough to compete.

> Slaney continued to blame Budd for the collision even though it was no
> one's fault - something that sometimes happens when running in a pack.
    
    Kerrigan continued to blame Stant for getting whacked in the knee 
    with a tire iron even though it was no one's fault-- something that
    sometimes happens when running in a pack of spoiled debutantes...
    
    glenn
    

    I agree, I think Kerrigan should have gotten up, chased down Stant and
    gave the brute a sound thrashing.  And she surely should have been
    gracious and forgiving when next she encounted Harding just as Saints
    Duprez etal would surely have been.

>    And she surely should have been
>    gracious and forgiving when next she encounted Harding just as Saints
>    Duprez etal would surely have been.

That's singular, Bill.  "Saint" Duprez.

You might want to re-read the notes again.  There's a little bit of difference
between how you'd treat someone who collided with you accidently and someone
who intentionally whacked you across the knee with a pipe.

    .101
    
    >and has said that her relative inexperience in running in a pack was 
    >probably a contributing factor in the collision.  
    
    That's right on the money. After the race they showed the spike marks
    in Zola Budds calve. Decker-Slaney was more to blame than Budd, I don't
    understand why she had to whinge so much like a boy who's dropped his
    ice cream.
    
    
    CHARLEY
    

RE    <<< Note 140.91 by HBAHBA::HAAS "almost wanted to be a figger skater" >>>

>Now they should go back to using college players. You put 'em on a team
>and let 'em play as a team for a while, not just a couple of games, and
>they could compete with the semi-pros from other countries.

  I never liked the rule that prohibited pros from being on the Olympic team
and I feel that every country should be allowed to send their best players in
any particular event regardless if they are paid or not. 

  All while I was growing up following the Olympics the Eastern block nations
were sending athletes who were paid by the state to do nothing but prepare for
their events in state run training facilities. 

  The arguments they gave were either that the athletes were really part of the
military and training was their assignment or that being a Communist country no
one was a professional at anything and everyone just worked toward the common
good. The bottom line was that their athletes made their living training while
ours were either college kids, people who had to have a day job, or kids who's
parents picked up the tab. 

  The best way is for the various national and international Olympic committees
to get out of the business of economics entirely and allow each country to send
the best athletes they have for any given sport. If one nation has a lock on
talent in one sport fine, they win that one, other countries pick up medals
somewhere else.

  George 

    I don't remember it being even close to being Slaney's fault.
   I was watching the race and I remember the over zealous young 
   Budd being clearly at fault. Slaney may have over-reacted but 
   she was a fierce competitior and I wouldn't have expected any 
   other reaction from her. Old hydra-face, on the other hand, 
   couldn't have had anything more fortuitous happen to her than 
   getting whacked on the leg. It made her millions that her orphan-
   insulting, home-wrecking butt wouldn't have gotten on her limited 
   talent and personality. She played the victim to the hilt even 
   though her Olympic dream was not trashed the way Slaney's was.
    After Kerrigan revealed herself for who she really was most of 
   us weren't thinking of the assault "why her?" but rather "who 
   better?"
    

Re        <<< Note 140.109 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need to talk figure skating" >>>

>  ... orphan-insulting, home-wrecking ...

  What's that all about ???

  I remember Mouse insulting. Was Mickey an orphan?

  George

    
      Oksana Baiul.

>    I don't remember it being even close to being Slaney's fault.
>   I was watching the race and I remember the over zealous young 
>   Budd being clearly at fault. 

I see.  So do you consider yourself more qualified than Slaney herself,
who later said (after a year or so of whining about it) that, in retrospect,
Budd was *not* clearly at fault?

BTW, Tommy - I don't disagree with you about Nancy Kerrigan.  Dogs cover
their ears when she's in the area...

  >>  So do you consider yourself more qualified than Slaney herself,
    
      No, I consider myself completely without reason to be diplomatic
      about it.

>      No, I consider myself completely without reason to be diplomatic
>      about it.

The surprises keep coming!  :-)

RE        <<< Note 140.111 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need to talk figure skating." >>>

    
>      Oksana Baiul.

  You mean millionaire orphan insulting. OK I'll give you that, bet Oksana
is still smarting from that one all the way to the bank but home wrecking I
still don't get. 

  George

> You mean millionaire orphan insulting. OK I'll give you that, bet Oksana
> is still smarting from that one all the way to the bank but home wrecking I
> still don't get. 
    
    And you call yourself a fan of international soap opera on ice...
    
    
    glenn
    

>      No, I consider myself completely without reason to be diplomatic
>      about it.

  >> The surprises keep coming!  :-)
    
     Hahaha.

Kerrigan started going out with Solomon while he was still married.  He left
his wife and two kids and married her very soon afterward.  Kerrigan is now
pregnant with Solomon's child, but plans to skate exhibitions for as long as
the doctors allow it.

Sorry to throw that little bit of sports-related content in at the end... :-)

RE      <<< Note 140.117 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    And you call yourself a fan of international soap opera on ice...
    
  No, I generally don't follow the soap part all that close. Jerry Solomon
was her manager, right? I remember they got married, was he married to someone
else at the time?

  If so that's bigamy which I believe is illegal. Are you sure you have that
right?

  George

> If so that's bigamy which I believe is illegal. Are you sure you have that
> right?
    
    As I understand it, under "Rules for being a homewrecker", Solomon can
    claim both as wives, and emotional possession of all titles acquired
    therein...
    
    glenn
    

>  If so that's bigamy which I believe is illegal. Are you sure you have that
>right?

I probably wasn't completely clear - he waited until the divorce was final
before actually marrying Kerrigan, but was publicly linked to her long before
then.

Re  <<< Note 140.122 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's Baseball And You're An American" >>>

>I probably wasn't completely clear - he waited until the divorce was final
>before actually marrying Kerrigan, but was publicly linked to her long before
>then.

  No you were clear, due to notes collision I didn't see your note before
I entered mine.

  So then I take it a "Home wrecker" is someone who started going out with
someone when that person was married to someone else? It has nothing to do with
break'ins, home invasions and the like? 

  Had it been that latter I was going to say wrong figure skater.

  As for the 1st definition, I don't know what it's like with your crowd but
just about every couple I know started going out when one of them was married
to someone else. In many cases they were both married when they started going
out. Must be a common thing this "home wreck'en".

  George

>  As for the 1st definition, I don't know what it's like with your crowd but
>just about every couple I know started going out when one of them was married
>to someone else. In many cases they were both married when they started going
>out. Must be a common thing this "home wreck'en".

Yup, George, my crowd is definitely different.  Amazingly enough, I started
going out with my wife when we were both single.

  <<< Note 140.124 by IMBETR::DUPREZ "It's Baseball And You're An American" >>>

>Yup, George, my crowd is definitely different.  Amazingly enough, I started
>going out with my wife when we were both single.

  Wow, that's something. In Pop psychology what you call "Home Wrecking" they
call "serial monogamy". My crowd considers that a move back toward conservative
behavior after the communal type living of the '70s. 

  George

    Interesting crowd you got there, George.  FWIW, no one that I know
    started dating their current wife while still married to their ex-wife. 
    I hardly know any divorced couples.  But then again, I don't live in a
    bastion of liberalness where such behavior is considered the norm.
    
    (Why do I see another LDUC about to take place?)
    
    UMDan

>In Pop psychology what you call "Home Wrecking"

Read the replies, George.  I didn't call it "home wrecking".

          <<< Note 140.128 by PHXSS1::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>


>  George, maybe you should make new friends.  One of them might be your
>    next wife.


	Or your next serial monogamist.

	Kevin

     Greg Cote
     Miami Herald
     June 19, 1996

     The problem with the Olympics: Too many events, too much clothes.

     As you know, the O movement began 100 years ago with a bunch of
     athletes running around Greece nude. Soon, a record 10,000 athletes
     will be running around Atlanta, hardly any of them nude.

     Too many sports -- 36 now, including four new ones in Atlanta and
     two more approved for the 2000 Games -- muddy up the modern Summer
     Olympics With Clothes On. Officials now estimate one in five
     Americans will win a medal in Atlanta. My neighbor happens to be
     rated a strong contender in Rhythmic Lawn Mowing. My own son is
     goin' for the gold in Freestyle Whining. . . .

     Other sports still clamoring to gain Olympic status must be stopped.
     These include: bowling, ballroom dancing, surfing, orienteering,
     hangliding, lawn bowling, trampolining, underwater swimming and
     Frisbee. Again, all true. I admit underwater swimming does have
     potential as a TV event, particularly the 1,500-Meter Lung Burst.
     I'm confused about what orienteering is, rendering me totally
     disorienteered.

   ESPNET SportsZone | The Wire

          NO EVENTS SCHEDULED TODAY AT OLYMPIC TRACK AND FIELD TRIALS

  Anyone catch Michael Johnson in the Olympic trials yesterday? He not only
won the 200 meter but he set a new World Record at of 19.66 seconds. The guy
flew past the rest of the field. He really smoked them. 

  In other news, Decathlon athlete Dan O'Brien (of Rebock Dan and Dave fame)
qualified for this year's Olympics. O'Brien came in 11th during qualifying
in 1992 and missed the Olympics because he had a "no-jump" in the pole vault
after failing to clear his lowest level after 3 tries.

  Both Johnson and O'Brien have a good shot at winning gold medals in the
Olympics next month.

  George

I saw a replay of the Johnson 200. In both the semis and the finals, he
looked like he had more gas left. I can just imagine how fast this guy
can go if'n he ever got pushed.

As for O'Brien, the story of the decathalon was that O'Brien had to rally
to win. He was second after the firsted round and only clinched it with
his effort in the mile and a couple of personal bestests in the field.

    Michael Johnson, barring injury, is a lock for the 200 meters at
    Atlanta.
    
    
    CHARLEY

  The guy's amazing. I've always heard that the 200 meter is suppose to be
this event that is too long to be a sprint but people run it as a sprint
anyway ending up nearly dead once they've finished. Thing is, this guy
ran away from a world class field and hardly broke a sweat.

  George

>  The guy's amazing. I've always heard that the 200 meter is suppose to be
>this event that is too long to be a sprint but people run it as a sprint
>anyway ending up nearly dead once they've finished.

I thought that was the prevailing feeling about the 400, not the 200.  But
then again, I know squat about track and field.

>I thought that was the prevailing feeling about the 400, not the 200.  But
>then again, I know squat about track and field.

I tend to agree with this.

The 400 is a "tweener" as far as I'm concerned -- too long to be a sprint, too
short to be "distance" and a bitch to run period.



'Saw

    
      I watched most of the trials yesterday. The biggest story was
     Gwen Torrance not qualifying for the 200. It was pretty much
     conceded befire the race that she was the new sprint queen and 
     the 200 meter race was to be her coronation ceremony. Wrong!
     The men's 200 actually had me pulling for Carl Lewis. I didn't
     think he could win it but I thought he might make the Olympic
     squad. Again - WRONG! Johnson came out and made like Secretariat
     in the Derby. It was over after the first ten yards. Complete
     and total domination.
    
    BTW - the men's 1500 kind of went like the women's 200. There was
          an up close and personal on some guy named Holman who went 
          on to finish 11th. He started out strong then behaved like
          a greyhound that I might have had money on and just started 
          going backwards. Even the guys who run out to mark the
          spot for the shotput were moving faster than him.

The 100-200 double is more common than the 200-400.

The 400 battle is really intriguing between Johnson and Butch Reynolds,
who lost a big chunk of his career on a_admitted bogus drug test. So far
he's sued and won a couple of case and still hasn't collected a dime.

To put his efforts into perspective, he still holds the 400 record
despite the onslaught by Johnson.

TTom

  I think Carl Lewis did make the Olympic squad in the long jump. Best I could
tell he came in 5th in the 200. 

  I wouldn't be surprised to see him run one of the middle legs in the 4 X 100
relay. His experience could help on the hand offs.

  George

    
      Lewis did make the team in the long jump but not as a sprinter.
     He might make the 4x100 team if sentimentality takes over but
     handing off a baton isn't rocket science and the ability to do
     it alone won't gain him a spot over someone faster than he is.
     Still, he was the greatest sprinter of our time - maybe ever 
     and probably the greatest track and field athlete of our time.
     Nice run, Carl.

>     Gwen Torrance not qualifying for the 200. It was pretty much
>     conceded befire the race that she was the new sprint queen and 
>     the 200 meter race was to be her coronation ceremony. Wrong!

Tommy, I believe she pulled a muscle the day before, but ran the 200
anyway.

ESPNET has some articles that sum up my reaction to the Track & Field
events this past week:

	-  "the Old-lympics"

	-  "the Geezer Games"

	-  "the Jurassic Games"

	-  "Al Oerter and the discus:  which came first ?"

	-  "Generation-X, where are you ?  Can you run, jump or throw ??"

    
    Lewis was named a member of this years 4X100 relay team.

  >> Tommy, I believe she pulled a muscle the day before, but ran the 200
  >> anyway.

     It was mentioned that she had an injury before the race. After the
     race her interviewer mentioned the possible injury and she waffled
     a bit like she might say that was at least part of the problem
     but then thought better of it and just gave her competitors credit. 
     If she'd have used the injury as an excuse she'd have resurrected
     her sour grapes rep. I really tend to think she was indeed knicked
     but I also don't think she ever saw the woman who edged her out for 
     third or she might have pushed just a bit harder.


     re. The Jurrassic games comments. I view the ages of the competitors
         as a positive. If track athletes are sticking around into their
         thirties it means they're making money. That was not always the
         case. And track is a sport you can't hide in. The judges aren't
         going to award you points for longevity or charisma. Either you
         can run faster or jump longer or higher than the other person or
         you lose.
    

>     re. The Jurrassic games comments. I view the ages of the competitors
>         as a positive.

The question is, if Slaney is still the best we have in women's distance
racing, what's going on with the younger crowd ?  Aren't there any newcomers
who can beat out these oldies-but-goodies ?

RE        <<< Note 140.146 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need to talk figure skating." >>>

>And track is a sport you can't hide in. The judges aren't
>         going to award you points for longevity or charisma. Either you
>         can run faster or jump longer or higher than the other person or
>         you lose.
    
  I don't know of any Olympic sports where you can get points for longevity
or charisma. That's the thing about all Olympic events, either you have
the ability or you don't.

  George

  >> The question is, if Slaney is still the best we have in women's 
  >> distance racing, what's going on with the younger crowd ?  Aren't 
  >> there any newcomers who can beat out these oldies-but-goodies ?

     There are young runners who can blow the doors off Slaney but they 
     aren't Americans. That's not new. Distance running in this country 
     has been on life support for about twenty years. 
     
    

    .135
    
    >I loved it when the Brits wouldn't allow Johnson to run in the U.K.
    >championships.
    >"You're too good and it would be a deflating experience for our
    > runners."
    
    a/ It wasn't the U.K. championships. These championships are for
       athletes from the U.K. only.
    
    b/ He was scheduled to run in an invitation 200m while the above was
       going on. He wanted more appearance money that all of the other
       athletes put together and was told to sling his hook.
    
    c/ The above was said by a Brit journalist. Not by the event
       organisers. 
    
    d/ Besides that, he is too good for our runners.;^)
    
    
    CHARLEY

In a showing of how the community of Atlanta will embrace the swealtering
hordes that come to the town to see the Olympics, the word out is that
the local hospitals are gonna charge them foreigners cash up front afore
they'll treat 'em.

TTom

Sorta like Dueteronomy:

15:3  Of a foreigner thou mayest exact it again: ...

>     There are young runners who can blow the doors off Slaney but they 
>     aren't Americans. That's not new. Distance running in this country 
>     has been on life support for about twenty years. 

Did you catch the article (not sure where) that quoted Ryan as saying
the death of long distance running in this country started when we
threw out the mile.  He says we should bring it back 'cause it's
what we Americans relate to...no one knows anything about meters.
He went on to say that we should have national meets that crown the
top miler, etc....

You're right it was Ryan: Jim Ryan.

He was the great 'Merkin Miler who got thumped by the firsted wave of
Kenyas. We aint really competed since.

>He went on to say that we should have national meets that crown the
>top miler, etc....

We got that. There's many a national and invitational meets. They run one
of 'em right in the middle of New York City.

TTom

>We got that. There's many a national and invitational meets. They run one
>of 'em right in the middle of New York City.

With the mile as one of the races ???

  >> Did you catch the article (not sure where) that quoted Ryan as 
  >> saying the death of long distance running in this country started 
  >> when we threw out the mile.  He says we should bring it back 'cause 
  >> it's what we Americans relate to...no one knows anything about meters.
  >> He went on to say that we should have national meets that crown the
  >> top miler, etc....

     I didn't see it but it sounds pretty interesting. I've heard several
     different reasons why we can't compete on the international level in
     distance running but I've never heard it tied to the mile distance
     before. In Ryun's time, though, there was a stated goal (the four
     minute mile) that was akin to the Holy Grail of track. The quest to
     break that barrier was an almost daily drama that received big press 
     coverage and when Bannister broke it it was a huge event. There's no 
     Holy Grail anymore. There's also not enough money in this country for 
     the work required to become a great distance runner. Even track super-
     stars like Carl Lewis get virtually zero endorsement dollars in this 
     country though they're huge overseas. The way for any country to improve 
     at a sport is to have the numbers at the youth level and track just 
     isn't a ver attractive option to all of the other sports kids can play 
     in this country. What it'll probably take is another Dave Wattle type
     performance on our home turf in Atlanta. A charismatic character 
     who electrifies an entire watching nation and spurs a slew of 
     young kids to take up track the way Kipjo Keino did for Kenyan kids. 
     Steve Holman could be the guy to do it but after his performance at 
     the Trials, I'm not so sure.

>     What it'll probably take is another Dave Wattle type
>     performance on our home turf in Atlanta.

...another Zola Budd takeout of Decker-Slaney would inspire me.  Maybe
that's what would get the kids' attention....some kinda contact-running event....

    Well, the mayor finally found some cojones and vetoed the proposed taxi
    cab rate increase (40 - 60%)for the Olympics.  Now one will only get
    mildly ripped off to ride in old, smelly cabs.

    Quote from Mayor Campbell -"We simply cannot allow for price-gouging to
    become an Olympic event."  Nearly fell out of my chair when I read
    that.  ACOG (Atlanta Committee for the Olympic Games) has raised price
    gouging to an art form, worthy of a platinum, never mind gold, medal. 

    UMDan
    

    >Well, the mayor finally found some cojones and vetoed the proposed taxi
    >cab rate increase (40 - 60%)for the Olympics.  Now one will only get
    >mildly ripped off to ride in old, smelly cabs.
    
    And can you believe the reaction from the cabbies?  They actually said
    that Mayor Campbell is picking on the poor!  How's that for a rational-
    ization?  It's as bad as their insistence that they needed the fare
    increase to off-set the lost revenue from the "depleted convention
    business" during the games! 
    
    Wouldn't it be nice to live so far outside of reality?
    
    
    Rick

>    And can you believe the reaction from the cabbies?  They actually said
>    that Mayor Campbell is picking on the poor!  How's that for a rational-


Don't most cabbies own 7-11's on the side anyway?

     _________________________________________________________________
   
   ESPNET SportsZone | NBA | Olympics
   
                  MAN ACCUSES BARKLEY OF PUNCHING HIM IN NOSE
                                       
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   CLEVELAND -- [IMAGE] Charles Barkley in a bar fight? Say it ain't so.
   
   The Phoenix Suns star has a way of livening things up around the Dream
   Team. So while many may be bored by the thought of the NBA All-Star
   team sleepwalking its way to Olympic gold, Barkley has grabbed the
   attention again ... and the Games are still a few weeks away.
   
   Charles Barkley Barkley
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Barkley, in Cleveland for a Dream Team exhibition game against Brazil,
   was involved in a 1:30 a.m. incident Sunday morning that led to a
   complaint being filed with police.
   
   According to police reports, Jeb Tyler, 23, of Spencerport, N.Y.,
   filed a complaint early Sunday accusing Barkley of assault and
   alleging that Barkley punched him in the nose. Barkley in turn filed a
   report accusing Tyler of using "bodily force" against him.
   
   No criminal charges were filed.
   
   Asked about the incident after the Dream Team's 109-68 victory over
   Brazil on Sunday, Barkley said, "It's none of your ... business. No
   disrespect, but it's my life, isn't it?"
   
   Tyler said he and a friend introduced themselves to Barkley, fellow
   Dream Teamer Reggie Miller of the Indiana Pacers and a woman who was
   with the players at The Basement, a dance club in a part of town known
   as "The Flats." Tyler said his friend began talking with the woman.
   
   Tyler said Barkley asked what they were talking about and then told
   Tyler and his friend they had to leave.
   
   "He said it like three times, `You got to leave,'" Tyler said. "I
   said, `No, I'm not leaving the bar.' Then I said, `How about you leave
   the bar?' As soon as I said that, he punched me in the nose."
   
   Tyler, a 6-foot, 180-pound business equipment salesman, said he and
   Barkley both landed a few punches.
   
   "When the fight was getting broken up, he was still jumping over the
   bouncer and still throwing punches," Tyler said. "He was going nuts.
   He was just crazy."
   
   According to the police report, Barkley then tried to leave the bar in
   a cab with Miller. Police stopped the cab, and Barkley and Tyler filed
   their complaints.
   
   Tyler said he had three beers before the incident.
   
   Miller, Barkley and Cleveland Indians left fielder Albert Belle had
   dinner together earlier in the evening. No accounts indicate that
   Belle was at the bar where the alleged altercation took place.
   
   "It's really unfortunate," Miller said. "You try to go out. You try to
   have a good time, and something like this happens."
   
   Charges were dropped against Barkley and another NBA player, Jayson
   Williams, after they were accused of being in a bar fight in Chicago
   in 1992.
   
   That same year, Barkley was acquitted of misdemeanor battery and
   disorderly conduct charges for punching a man who had taunted him and
   a friend outside a Milwaukee tavern a year earlier. The jury accepted
   Barkley's argument that he acted in self-defense when he broke the
   Milwaukee man's nose.

    
    
       Is it just me or is this dream team stuff getting boring? I'd rather
    have half collegians and half Pros so the games against other countries
    are a little more competitive. Although I did like the college players
    almost handing the DT III its first loss on Saturday.
    
    
    Chap

Put me down for big ol' yawn.

I don't mind the young NBA players like Grant Hill and Penny there but
about half of 'em have already had their moment in the sun stomping the
sheet outta the rest of the world. Shaq's OK and so is Hakeem cause it's
his firsted chance.

Malone, Stockton, Pippen, Robinson, Barkley shoulda all stayed home.
Replace 'em with maybe a couple of draftees like Camby and Iverson and
throw in a college guy or two like Tim Duncan.

As it is, it's a whole of of been there, done that.

TTom

RE  <<< Note 140.166 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "Donnie Baseball Yankee HOFer!!!" >>>

>       Is it just me or is this dream team stuff getting boring? I'd rather
>    have half collegians and half Pros so the games against other countries
>    are a little more competitive. Although I did like the college players
>    almost handing the DT III its first loss on Saturday.
    
  I hear this a lot and I keep asking the following question but it never seems
to get answered. The question is, do you feel that way about all the Olympic
sports or just basketball? 

  The reason I ask is that throughout the history of the Olympics there have
been times when one country or another has dominated an event. For the most
part nothing is done about it and eventually either other countries improve
their programs ending the dynasty. Is there any reason that basketball should
be treated differently?

  Also, if this rule is created, then we get back to the old question, should
Eastern block nations be prohibited from having members of the military and
other state supported athletes play basketball?

  George

    
    
       Did I say make it a rule?

'nother big yawn here....

But then again the usefullness of basketball to me begins
and ends in March.  And that's only for the ones playing
without (supposedly) being paid.  Them NBAers oughta team
up with Hulk Hogan for all I care.


billl

  >> Malone, Stockton, Pippen, Robinson, Barkley shoulda all stayed home.
    
     I agree. Especially, if they already have gold medals. Let's face it,
     at their age these guys don't get up to play Croatia or anybody else
     outside of the NBA. They turn it on and off at will and it comes across 
     when you're watching the games. If you can stand to watch the games.
     They perform with the same boring precision of a machinist making 
     widgets.
    

    Well one question was answered over the weekend and that had to with
    the status of college basketball vis a vis nba baskets.  An
    understaffed college team handled the nba stars for most of the game
    only losing to the depth of the stars.  The addition of the cream of
    last years college stars would have seriously embarrassed the nba.
    
    One can readily see why the nba is turning to younger players to
    upgrade their teams since from their viewpoint it's a waste to have the
    best basketball talent playing "amateur" ball with non-nba aligned
    enterprises when the same players could be playing on expanded pro
    teams.
    
    Of course with the ncaa having heads in the sand college bball will
    become minor league withing five years.

RE                      <<< Note 140.172 by MKOTS3::BREEN >>>

>    Well one question was answered over the weekend and that had to with
>    the status of college basketball vis a vis nba baskets.  An
>    understaffed college team handled the nba stars for most of the game
>    only losing to the depth of the stars.  The addition of the cream of
>    last years college stars would have seriously embarrassed the nba.

  What question was answered?

  I guess the question is, if you take two bunches of guys who haven't played
together, have them play a game in which the coaches are experimenting to see
what would work, what will happen?

  The answer is that you will see a chaotic training exercise which is not
much of a game and which says nothing about the relative strengths of the
two groups.

  Now care to speculate on what would happen if the Bulls played Kentucky?

  George

    The third guy that Miller and Barkley were with was (yes, truth is
    stranger) none other than Albert Belle.  Fortunately Belle wasn't
    around for the fisticuffs in the bar.
    
    George, your term is minor league for ncaa basketball.  Then you
    reverse field and take a Michael Jordan team for comparison.  Now my
    point is very simple:  Put Walker,Wallace,Camby and a few others out
    there and they will seriously contend with this DTIII club.
    
    But this argument is going to end on its own since in the next five
    years college basketball will be more comparable to college baseball
    vis a vis it's professional counterpart.  I think last year's Nebraska
    team would beat many pro teams at Nebraska using college officials and
    college rules in football.

RE                      <<< Note 140.175 by MKOTS3::BREEN >>>

>Now my
>    point is very simple:  Put Walker,Wallace,Camby and a few others out
>    there and they will seriously contend with this DTIII club.

  That's true of most minor leagues. Make up a team of the top minor leaguers
called up in Baseball recently and they'd play a decent game against the
All-Stars. Like your college team they'd have trouble winning but they'd
have their good moments.

  In any case, Walker,Wallace,Camby are examples of guys who were promoted and
are now effectively NBA and will be legally NBA once all the contacts are
signed. Take some real college kids, give both teams a few weeks to practice
then see what happens. The NBA guys would blast the college kids right off the
court. 
    
>I think last year's Nebraska
>    team would beat many pro teams at Nebraska using college officials and
>    college rules in football.

  I bet they'd beat a team made up of their wives and kids. You could take that
to the bank. 

  George

>    ... I think last year's Nebraska
>    team would beat many pro teams at Nebraska using college officials and
>    college rules in football.

I think it's far more likely that a college all-star team would beat a
pro all-star team than a college team would beat a pro team.

In your example, you're basically opining that lasted year's Nebraska
could beat lasted year's Jets at Nebraska with college rules and refs.

IMO, it wouldn't happen. The Jets are bad versus the NFL caliber teams
but there a veritable college all-star team. Sure they have some dead
wood and dead beats but consider that no more than 10 players on Nebraska
would even make the Jets.

TTom

    Tom, Nebraska would beat the Jets last year playing college football
    but they are unique.  They are two totally different games and I agree
    that unlike basketball where the college player doesn't have to do
    anything athletically the college football player has to try to bulk up
    while retaining his speed.  The pro team would counter with a precision
    passing attack, probably putting it up 70 times with Nebraska having a
    hard time with the penetration.  Likewise the Big Red would stop the
    run and run pretty well.
    
    I believe players like Camby and Duncan have already hit their peak as
    natural basketball players and like the Stocktons and Malones will
    start their downhill slides as they hit 21,22 just like track athletes.
    Duncan badly outclassed every nba big man at least for that one
    Saturday and Brevin Knight was way too quick for the nba guards
    although Payton showed what an important addition he was.
    
    If you have to play 80 games you have to put on the bulk like a Malone
    and Barkley but you lose a lot of quickness.  The thing that will save
    the nba stars is that Olympic competion will also use older pros, not
    their younger athletes.

Hold on there, just a minute, billte.

Firsted of all, this is articulate and has definite points so right there
it'll never qualify for anything worth filling up Saw's disks over.

However, with all due respects, I do not subscribe to your theory about
either Nebraska vs Jets or that good basketball players peak in their
college years.

In the matter of the firsted, I'd like to see 'em play. They used to have
a college all-star team play the defending NFL champion which aint quite
the same thing. But look at defense. There's prolly only one of 2
defenders on the Huskers who can even keep up with the Jets' receivers
just in terms of pure speed. Same goes for the strength difference on the
line.

Of course, Nebraska had Christian Peters and the Jets had Bubby Brister.

As for peaking, Duncan will continue to develop as a player as he
develops physically. He will if'n he wants to be any kind of player. Look
a the top and you see that the good ones add to their game. Magic learned
a jump hook after some years in the league. He also developed a shot
which he was totally lacking in college, not to mention the fack that he
won a free throw title one year.

I don't think there's much doubt that Jordan shot the ball significantly
better this year than any of his previous years. Here's a_example of the
purely physical diminishing while the basketball skills are still
improving.

And you don't have to be great, either. Locally, Scott Burrell has
developed into a phenomenal outside shooter in just the few years he's
been in the league. When he came in, he was strictly front court. Now,
the Bugs are hoping that he'll continue to rehab so they can use him at
the 2.

TTom

    
    >    Would it be un-American to secretly wish that the DT loses a game?
    
    I don't consider myself unAmerican for wishing they lose outright. 
    I've always been against that sort of in-your-face-slamma-jamma
    sports and the whole thing gets even uglier when you pile on the
    Homer Simpson type of USA!USA! hoopla that goes with the whole
    Dream Team thing.
    
    Personally I don't care if we put together a super team.  But the
    way we go about it, brag it to death, flaunt it -- that's so typical
    of the ugly American.  If the team just went in, represented us, won,
    and left, that'd be another story.
    
    On top of that, it's just no fun to watch the DT crush everybody.
    
    I'll always take the Hannahs over the Neon Deion's, so it's probably
    just me, but I don't feel much Amnerican pride about the DT.
    
    - Sean

    TTom, Burrell could shoot in college too but the knock on him was
    he was very streaky as in, by the game.  I think he had become
    much more consistant in the pro's, which may also be attributed to
    his playing hoop year round instead of playing Baseball for the
    Toronto organization every summer lik ehe did in college until his last
    year............
    
    Jimbo

re: Burrell

I hear what you're saying, Jimbo. "More conistent" is definitely a
developement and improvement.

I guess what I'm going back to is that when he was drafted, his outside
shot was hardly mentioned.

TTom

    Well, down to 10 days away.  Hard to believe that's it's right around
    the corner.  Security is getting real tight downtown.  If your car
    breaks down and you leave it alone, it will be gone in minutes.

    On the ticket side, it appears that if you need a ticket to an event
    and are willing to make the trek to the venue, you can probably get
    one.  I know people who have already bought tickets for events from
    "resellers" at less than face value.

    Also, as indicated earlier, the great "get rich quick" housing rental
    market has fizzled.  Lots of homes, few takers.  The bottom line - if
    you've got the cash and a way to get here, I believe that you'll find
    tickets and a place to stay.

    However, be aware that at all limited competition locations (inside
    stadiums, etc) the price for refreshments, etc. will be sky high, with
    a limited ability to bring anything in.  Also, the street prices for
    stuff (parking, restaurants) will be higher.

    Batten down the hatches, the world's a coming to Hotlanta!

    UMDan
    
     

>If your car
>    breaks down and you leave it alone, it will be gone in minutes.

How does this differ from the Bronx?

I'm gonna miss most of it.

I'm headed to Key West to hunt for them underwater type bugs and will be
underwater most of the time these games go on.

I'll miss 200 meters which should be a dandy. Michael Johnson just set
the new record. He finished second to another guy the other day. And that
Christie fellow has jumped ino the fray.

And considering that they won't let the French synchronized swimmers do
their Nazi thing, that race is about the onliest thing of interest for
me.

I had been eager to see what happens to that big ol' guy from the U.S.A.
who recently set a dead lift record of over 900 pounds. It would've been
nice to see him compete in weightlifting. However, the reigning king of
the sport, who has been convicted of selling illegal steroids and failed a
drug test indicating that he still uses 'em, will also be competing.

TTom

    
    
       Roland you apparently don't know the Bronx!!
    
       It won't be gone. It will be torched.

    Gotta love this one form today's Atlanta Journal Constitution-

    The number 2 Synchronized Swimmer on the US "junior" team is a male.  He
    has a shot at competing in the 2000 Olympics if the governing body
    approves of coed teams.  An interesting point of the story
    was made by his coach, who, damning with faint praise, said "I'm one of
    the ones who would like to see him do something else, or maybe
    male-female duet.  But I will say that when he's in the team event,
    especially when they're upside-down, you wouldn't know he's a boy."  

    And apparently international folks aren't immune from the influence of
    agents.  The Kenyans may field a less than stellar long distance team
    due to the fact that their agents will not have them in training camp
    prior to a Thursday deadline.  Their runners are committed to other
    European events, and will not make it in time. 

    UMDan

    
> I hear this a lot and I keep asking the following question but it never seems
> to get answered. The question is, do you feel that way about all the Olympic
> sports or just basketball? 
    
    I'll answer the question... pretty much the whole thing is a snooze 
    for me.  I'll watch some of the team sports I enjoy, like baseball 
    and soccer (neither "major" events by Olympic standards), but overall 
    "the drama of human competition" passed me right on by somewhere 
    around Boycott I, and hasn't returned.
    
    glenn
    

Ho hum!~

It looks like once again the strongest opponent for the Dream Team is our
college guys. 

Lasted night's patsies were the Chinese, losing 58-119. DT shot a nifty
.690. Sir Chuck led the way and from the clips on Sportscenter received a
nice ovation from the fans in Phoenix.

In fack, Chuck was the onliest thing of interest, playing maybe for the
lasted time as a Suns. At his press conference he pretty much blasted the
ownership and tried to make it clear that it weren't nothing to do with
the fans or teammates.

TTom

    Do they play Croatia before the Olympics? Dino, Kukoc and Stoyko will
    give them their biggest problems. They probably will win the silver.
    
    Mike

Word is that Kukoc was injured during practice.

And meanwhile, the Greek basketball team is in some hot water. Seems that
they refused to quit smoking on their flight to the States. They were on
Delta which has a worldwide ban on smoking. Greek politicians are calling
for the country to tell them to come back home.

Maybe it was the way they were reared...

Today's guess at who's going where has Klein moving with Chuck to
Houston. The Rockets'll be a fun team to watch but are likely to miss
Cassells. Kenny Smith aint gonna get it done.

TTom

Isnt' this whole deal dependent on Mutombo re-signing with Denver?

It sounds like Detroit will be making a pitch and Falk says that all of
his guys will test the market.

TTom

    Highlights(?) from the Olympics - 
    
    The opening ceremony was impressive, although seeing Ali was both
    thrilling and sad.  It took a little long, and I understand that the
    IOC is considering doing away with the athletes "walk-in" (athletes, we
    don't need no steenkin' athletes!).  Wanna buy a chrome pick up truck?

    Ticket availability is following the time honored tradition of letting
    the market set the price (supply and demand).  Most tickets seem to be
    going for face value or less, except for the high demand events.  

    Everyone seems to be heeding ACOG's suggestion and taking MARTA (local
    mass transit authority).  MARTA is somewhat overwhelmed with the
    crowds, but no major disasters yet.  Parking seems to be available
    downtown.  I'll find out shortly, as my parents are coming into town
    this week and I may go downtown into the belly of the beast.

    The IOC is getting ready to kick some ACOG butt today.  IBM's vaunted
    computer system is all f****d up, with human runners being used to
    deliver scores to press types.  Also, although MARTA seems to be doing
    the job, the IOC will be looking into the transportation of the
    athletes.

    On a personal note, I've watched more events than I though I would, and
    my daughters are glued to the set during the gymnastic and swimming
    events.  And what's the deal with John Tesh?  Is he a gymnastics
    expert?  I wish his two co-hosts, who seem to know something about the
    sport would shove his head in the nearest chalk tub.  

    How's the local papers outside Atlanta reporting the events, ambiance,
    etc.?
    
    More later.

    UMDan
         

    
    
       I was thinking the same thing. John Tesh Sucks!!

    
    
        WHY HAVE THEY ONLY SHOWED ONE MEDAL CEREMONY SO FAR??
    
    
    CHAP

  John Tesh is just an announcer. He was on the show "Entertainment Tonight" for
several years and word was he was leaving that show to follow a music career.
He's here just doing the talking head thing for NBC.

  Tesh knows nothing about the event and he seems to be willing to rely on
Daget and the woman commentator who do seem to know what's going on. It's sort
of like when ABC had Frank Gifford working on Down Hill at the Winter Olympics
or for that matter Howerd Cosell doing football with Dandy Don Meridith. "THE
... CLOCK ... IS ... RUNNING ... DOWN". "Gosh Darn Howard, what other way would
it run?". 

  So far NBC is doing OK. They do have their personal coverage but it's not
too bad. They are showing quite a bit of action.

  Having the Champ light the torch was a great idea. He's probably the most
famous U.S. Athlete in the world. It's a little sad to see him struggling with
Parkson's Disease but it's an inspiration seeing him toughing it out and going
on with life. He is sill the greatest.

  Another great part of opening ceremonies was when they had the 11,000 or so
athletes of all races and nationalities standing on the field and they played
that part from Martain Luther King's dream speech:

   "I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia the sons of former
    slaves and the sons of former slaveowners will be able to sit down together
    at the table of brotherhood."

  For just that moment the dream seemed to come true.

  As for Coverage in Boston it's pretty good. Ch 7 brings us all the NBC action
and the Globe has results every morning.

  Dream team goes again tonight,

  George (glued to the tube for 2+ weeks)

    Well when it comes in (I'm getting some kind of interference on channel
    19, warner bros) the French channel is covering the olympics too and I
    prefer their choices.  Saw the Lithuanian's beat the Croatians and Dino
    Radja on Saturday.
    
    Looks like the Canadian channel will concentrate on athletic
    competition and NBC on everything else.  George, can you somehow use
    your influence to get beach volleyball off the air for the duration.

>George, can you somehow use
>    your influence to get beach volleyball off the air for the duration.

Some of us *like* beach volleyball... :-)

    .200 snarf
    
    What is the deal with the Woman swimmer giving her Bronze medal to the
    other girl ?
    
    Is the other girl sick, injured or just a freind ?
    
    Coverage late night is really a sucker punch type with the water polo
    match against Italy dragging the viewer along.
    Volley ball was the same thing. 
    Tesh should continue with the singing carreer. His only contribution
    was telling us the composer of the music. 
    
    Jeff

RE Beach Volleyball and NBC.

  NBC has already said that they know some people will be upset but that if
they covered the Olympics the way the people who read Track and Field Magazine
would like to see it covered, no one would watch (i.e. not enough people would
watch).

  Remember the triple cast from 4 years ago when they had the Red, White and
Blue channels on cable? Each had more hard core sports but the president of NBC
said they lost so much money on that venture that it would have been cheaper to
fly each of the subscribers over to Spain, put them up in a hotel and buy them
tickets to the events. 

  As for medal ceremonies and ABC, the reason we've only seen one is that the
U.S. has only won 2 gold medals so far and they were both in swimming. No point
in showing both. As for ABC it was Jim McCay himself back when they were
covering the events, who admitted that they knew they were concentrating on the
United States and that it bothered some people but ratings showed that coverage
of the U.S. is what people wanted to see. 

  So far they are leagues ahead of CBS on coverage of actual sports. With luck
they'll keep it up but I'm afraid you will get your beach volleyball. As the
NBC spoksman said, "it's TV friendly".

  George

> NBC has already said that they know some people will be upset but that if
> they covered the Olympics the way the people who read Track and Field Magazine
> would like to see it covered, no one would watch (i.e. not enough people would
> watch).
    
    Through three days, Glenn's Olympic viewing Minute Count:  0:00.00
    
    
    glenn
    

    
    
        Well you just turned 'Saw into a non-watcher now!!

>    
>        Well you just turned 'Saw into a non-watcher now!!
>


Actually, I did watch ONE swimming race (in honor of dan'l).  I saw the US win
the gold in the relay last night.

Then I found that A&E was show "The Story of the Gun" and watched that instead.

The sports *I'd* like to see are never shown -- fencing, greco-roman wrasslin,
team handball....

I'd really like to see the sports that we never get to see otherwise....


'Saw

    
> I'd really like to see the sports that we never get to see otherwise....
    
    I'd really to see a sport that is a sprot, baseball, a non-subjective,
    character-building team game that is widely internationally recognized,
    but according to the guide I saw, there'll be only one game televised,
    USA-Cuba, and I expect that to be butchered to pieces.
    
    But surely the Gold Medal game will get some coverage?
    
    
    glenn
    

    
   >> Through three days, Glenn's Olympic viewing Minute Count:  0:00.00
    
       Mine is about 00:03. I can't sit through preliminary events 
       especially swimming. The current scoring system has made
       boxing unwatchable. The Dream Team has made basketball un-
       watchable. And track and field, which for me is the best part
       of the Olympics, hasn't started in earnest. The only thing
       I've managed to catch were Hall the Greco-Roman wrestler who
       I knew would lose after going to overtime in too many prelim 
       matches. Call me crazy but IMO the fall of the Berlin Wall and 
       the demise of the Eastern Bloc was the worst thing that ever 
       happened to the Olympics from a tv viewer standpoint. Without 
       the Evil Empire as the ultimate villain, the Olympics lose their 
       much of their appeal.

>       matches. Call me crazy but IMO the fall of the Berlin Wall and 
>       the demise of the Eastern Bloc was the worst thing that ever 
>       happened to the Olympics from a tv viewer standpoint. Without 
>       the Evil Empire as the ultimate villain, the Olympics lose their 
>       much of their appeal.


I dunno Tommy.  I'd put the IOC's consideration of Ballroom Dancing right
up there....8^)

  >> I'd put the IOC's consideration of Ballroom Dancing right
  >> up there....8^)

     There's a ton of sports of dubious merit that might not
     be quite as bad as ballroom dancing but are pretty bad  
     nonetheless. I just don't watch them. But overall the
     demise of East Germany and the Soviet Union as sports
     powerhouses and drug maskers extrordinaire has made for 
     some pretty milquetoast competition. There's no one to
     set the bar anymore. The second worst thing about the 
     Olympics , again IMO, was the sucess of the 1984 games 
     staged in LA by Ueberroth. That one took commercialism 
     to a new level and set the stage for the Dream Team
     and everyone else who'd use the Olympics as a trade show.
    
     Irony of ironies, so far the highlight of the games other
     than the torchlighting ceremony with my personal hero Ali,
     has been Jason Alexander's 'Pretzel Boy' commercials.

I haven't seen the Pretzel commercials.

I can't figure out those insipid Nissan commercials though.  It's like taken
'shrooms without the 'shrooms....

I do get a kick out of the one with the diver diving off Niagara Falls.  8^)

>I can't figure out those insipid Nissan commercials though. 

Best I can figure is that they're intimating that you'll achieve inner
peace if you buy a Nissan.

(Note that in at least one of the commercials, the guy is sitting on an
 old Datsun...)

  The Dream Team is a fad that will pass in time. They are really nothing new,
there have always been teams that dominate one Olympic event or another for a
time. If the rest of the world is interested, they catch up, if the rest of the
world is not interested the sport dies. Having to face these guys should push
basketball programs in the rest of the world. They'll be the better for it. 

  As for commercialism, athletes have been making money off their medals by
doing endorsements for as long as I can remember. Remember Mary Lou doing
Energizer commercials before being replaced by the pink rabbit? Bruce Jener
turned his gold medal into an endorsement career. This was going on even back
in the 1st half of the century. Was it Wessmier who turned his swimming medals
into a career doing Tarzan movies?

  I still crack up every time I hear "I said we were going to EAT them for
lunch". 

  George 

    Roland if you like beach volleyball you can get all you want on a
    number of trash sport channels.  I'll even admit that some of the
    woman's gymnastics is interesting - it's a sport where the best are
    competing for their highest reward.
    
    I hope we get zero tennis of either gender and I'd love to see
    basketball played by teams other than the U.S.  I really wish we'd
    left the pros home in basketball except to fill in say with a Shaq at
    center.

    
    >> The Dream Team is a fad that will pass in time. 
    
       Not for the forseeable future. NBA marketing has reached 
       the saturation point here in the States. They're out to
       conquer the rest of the world. The stated goal is to sup-
       plant soccer as the number one sport world wide and the DT
       is the principal marketing tool.
    
    >> They are really nothing new, there have always been teams 
    >> that dominate one Olympic event or another for a time. 
    
       There's never been a team that dominated like this *and* 
       with this kind of hoopla. Never.
    
    >> If the rest of the world is interested, they catch up, if the 
    >> rest of the world is not interested the sport dies. 
    
       There's little chance of basketball 'dying'. 

    
    >    >> They are really nothing new, there have always been teams
    >    >> that dominate one Olympic event or another for a time.
    >
    >       There's never been a team that dominated like this *and*
    >       with this kind of hoopla. Never.
    
    Tommy, while your statement in and of itself is accurate, it has very
    little to do with Georges statement.  For examples of what George is
    saying, remember the Soviet Ice Hockey team, Kenyan long distance
    running, and West German swimming to name just a few.
    
    These were "teams" that were juggarnauts that could not be beaten. 
    Until one day everything normalized for one reason or another.  George
    is correct (IMHO) that if the US keeps sending the pros for basketball,
    the other countries are going to get better and beat us.  I predict
    within 10 years.
    
    Marc
    

    
    
    Get real! They day a dream team looses the Gold to one of these other
    countries, they'll be playing hockey in Hell. They do not have the
    leagues. They do not have the speed to stop the running game common
    in the NBA. They certainly can't touch the NBA for defense. 
    
    Of course none of us will be in here in 10 years to verify your
    prediction so wtfo.
    
    AlphaMikeFoxtrot ya'll

    >> For examples of what George is saying, remember the Soviet 
    >> Ice Hockey team, Kenyan long distance running, and West 
    >> German swimming to name just a few.
    
       I was going back through my memory to try and find an
       Olympic *team* that compares to the Dream Team. The Kenyans 
       have been great at long distance running since about Mexico    
       City in '68 but distance running isn't really a team
       sport and there have been many winners in distance events
       from other countries since then. Shorter won the Marathon
       in '72, Bordin won it in Seoul (?), etc. The Russians 
       were great in hockey but did they really crush people
       the way the DT does? Canada and Sweden both have given them
       a go. We're talking strictly men against boys here with
       the DT and we're talking about a team that really wasn't 
       chosen strictly on merit. There really could have been a 
       better team put together.
    
    
    >> George is correct (IMHO) that if the US keeps sending the pros 
    >> for basketball, the other countries are going to get better and 
    >> beat us.  I predict within 10 years.
    
       JD and I went around on this when the first DT was named. And I
       still don't understand how the rest of the world will get ap-
       preciably better by playing a group of NBA stars once every 
       four years. By playing in the NBA? Yes. By getting trounced
       once every four years? I don't see how. It'll be twenty years 
       before someone beats a group of NBA stars if ever. Basketball
       is still *the* sport for America's inner city youth and that
       isn't going to change real soon. We have the numbers and the
       love for the game on our side. The only bad thing I see is that
       more and more we emphasize fundamentals less and less. 
        
    
      

    
    	If Yugoslavia didn't break up into Croatia, Bosnia-?, and ? They
    would have a shot at beating the dream team. They would have Divac,
    Kukoc, Radja, Danilovic, plus that 18-19 year old who was just drafted
    in the NBA.
    
    Ron

RE        <<< Note 140.219 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>       I was going back through my memory to try and find an
>       Olympic *team* that compares to the Dream Team. 

  The Soviet Men's Gymnastic team was at times unbeatable.

  As for runners, from the countries point of view their national Olympic
committee sends what they view as an Olympic team even if they are going
to compete in an individual event. If anyone on the team wins that country
is credited with winning a medal.

  George

  >> The Soviet Men's Gymnastic team was at times unbeatable.

     We're really not talking "at times" are we? We're talking
     about flat out, head-and-shoulders-above, we-could-beat-you-
     like-a-rented-mule-if-we-wanted-to unbeatable. I think you'd
     be hard-pressed to find a team in Olympic history that has 
     been this dominating.

  >> As for runners, from the countries point of view their national 
  >> Olympic committee sends what they view as an Olympic team even 
  >> if they are going to compete in an individual event. If anyone on 
  >> the team wins that country is credited with winning a medal.

     The same is true of discus throwers. It doesn't make the discus throw
     a team sport, though.
    

RE        <<< Note 140.223 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     We're really not talking "at times" are we? We're talking
>     about flat out, head-and-shoulders-above, we-could-beat-you-
>     like-a-rented-mule-if-we-wanted-to unbeatable. I think you'd
>     be hard-pressed to find a team in Olympic history that has 
>     been this dominating.

  Tommy, to quote someone who likes to note in this file, you should go read
the Globe. The Globe today had a table showing that the Soviet Women's
Gymnastic team had won something like 5 gold medals in a row over the middle
part of the century and was only beaten once since the 30's.

>     The same is true of discus throwers. It doesn't make the discus throw
>     a team sport, though.
    
  Running is different. From time to time national teams do act like teams
sending out rabbits when they want to control the pace. That is not something
that makes any sense in discus.

  The point, however, was that it is not uncommon for certain nations to
dominate events. There are several cases where African nations have dominated
long distance running events but eventually the rest of the world came up
to their level.

  By the way, did you notice how Angola did not get blown away by Dream Team
III anywhere near the way they did 4 years ago? Perhaps they are already
making adjustments and preparing to play on a higher level.

  George

    
    
    
     ..... Or perhaps DT III is not playing up to there capabilities. Or
    perhaps the best players are not in Atlanta. ie Michael Jordan,Shawn
    Kemp,Shawn Bradley. :-)  etc...
    
    
    
          Bottom line is America invented Bball. Like Tommy said the inner
    city kids live it. It will be a long long long time if ever our pro's
    lose to one of these teams. Someone also brought up
    Kukoc,Radja,Stroiko,etc.. earlier. Remember these guys wouldn't make
    our 4th team. 
    
               Chap

    >> Tommy, to quote someone who likes to note in this file, you 
    >> should go read the Globe. The Globe today had a table showing 
    >> that the Soviet Women's Gymnastic team had won something like 
    >> 5 gold medals in a row over the middle part of the century and 
    >> was only beaten once since the 30's.

       I did read it. What it actually says is that the Soviets have
       won 10 of the last 11 gold medals and the one that they didn't
       win was '84 when they boycotted. To find a similar record you'd
       probably have to go back to the US men's basketball teams when
       college kids played. In all likelihood the as long as there are
       Dream Team's the US will post similar records. BTW, gymnastics
       , a subjectively scored sport, isn't a team sport either. A group 
       of scores taken cummulatively does not make a team sport.
    
    >> Running is different. From time to time national teams do act like 
    >> teams sending out rabbits when they want to control the pace. 
  
       Not true in the Olympics., Rabbits are generally runners who move up
       from shorter distances with the express purpose of pushing the pace.
       In the Olympics you must actually qualify for the event that you
       run.

    >> By the way, did you notice how Angola did not get blown away by Dream 
    >> Team III anywhere near the way they did 4 years ago? Perhaps they are 
    >> already making adjustments and preparing to play on a higher level.
    
       What's really happening is that the DT hasn't even turned it on at
       all yet. If they played full bore they could beat Angola by 90.

    
    Does anyone have the Soviets Olympic Ice Hockey record?  I think you
    will discover that for a significant period of time they were x wins
    and 0 loses and they BLEW OUT the opponents, but I don't have the data
    in front of me.
    
    Marc
    

 Any chance they'll cover the women's bball team in primetime? Afterall they're
 not showing too many events live to begin with. I'd also like to see the 
 Women's softball team as a very good friend of my wife's, father is the coach.

 As for baseball are they using the same ole juiced up ball that the Majors
 are using in an effort to generate interest and aluminum bats?

 I haven't watched much either as like Tommy, when it comes to the Summer O's
 Track and Field rules!!!!!!!! My two favorite events are the 100 meters run
 men and women and the Decathlon/Pentalon. I also like pole vaulting and would
 like to try it sometime.

 Of the new sports I really enjoy women's beach volleyball........

 mike

    
    The coverage this time has been poor... not quite as bad as the last
    olympics, but far from ideal. 

    
    	I wouldn't say the coverage has been poor, just we are at work and
    aren't watching much of it. NBC is showing 4 hours worth during the
    day from 10:00 to 13:00, then another 4.5 from 19:30 to 00:00, then
    another 2 hours from 12:41-02:41. So they are showing 10.5 hours worth
    of stuff spread out during the the weekdays. During the weekend they
    will be showing ~14 hours worth.
    	Yes, we have seen a lot of Gymnastics and Swimming on primetime TV
    this week. Gymnastics and Swimming get the TV ratings, plus there were
    a lot of finals. The Olympics have another 10 days to go, and some
    events havn't even started yet.
    
    Ron

    
    
      It isn't so much that there isn't enough coverage. It's things
     like what Glen pointed out with Karelin. Where they started off 
     like they'd cover Karelin's actual match and then they segued 
     into a dream sequence and fast forwarded to the end. I don't know
     why they even bothered to show any of it. You don't really expect
     sports like Greco-Roman wrestling to get a lot of covreage but 
     where the guy is a living legend you'd expect more than the half-
     hearted effort we got. The match itself seemed to be more dramatic
     than the women's gymnastics team which has gotten more press. The
     problem is that Karelin is far less photogenic.

  It should improve a lot when track and field starts. They will probably cover
that a lot more like they cover swimming where they tell you who's racing then
actually show you the whole race. 

  But as far as covering the less popular events, don't expect much in the way
of improvement. NBC is now saying that their type of coverage is making money
hand over fist and that they are pulling in the best ratings since Montreal and
in some cases the ratings are even better. 

  Lots of people are complaining but the only voting that counts is the ratings
and as long as people will watch dream sequences but get bored watching play by
play of sports they don't understand, that's what we'll see. 

  George 

    
    Yabbut!!
    
       Who watches horse jumping?
    
    

    I would expect to see a lot of equestrian events except for what George
    correctly points out, interest perse isn't enough, NBC wants to milk
    the cash cows for all their worth.
    
    In fact if nbc can make money for slipping in a Days of Our Lives
    greatest betrayals they'll do it.  TV management hates pure sport with
    a passion since what makes it sport is unpredictability and they want
    to manage everything because that's business (and it's not sport).
    
    Btw, Roland you're wrong about me.  I haven't figured out yet how nbc
    rigged the ending of woman's gymnastics but my sources tell me Shrug
    was seen playing hopscotch early yesterday morning with Moceneau's big
    sister and one of the swimmers.

    
    	Well get use to it, because NBC has the contract for the 2000
    Olympics in Austrailia. NBC finally figured out how to make money
    on the Olympics. They took an entire floor of there New York office
    and made it into a state of the art broadcast studio. All feeds from
    Atlanta go to the studio in New York, where all the editing and
    everything is done. They plan on doing the same thing for Austrailia
    using the same studio, beam everything back to NY. In past years
    they would make a temporary studio at the site of the games.
    
    Ron

  I think NBC has the next several winter and summer Olympics. But that's
beside the point, CBS has already shown that they are worse at turning the
Olympics into a soap opera and wasn't ABC recently bought by Disney? Somehow I
doubt the Mouse would do a whole lot better. 

  As long as the networks are allowed to have exclusive coverage, this is what
we will see. As I said before, the only way to get real sports type coverage
like they have on the BBC and CBC would be if Congress passed a law turning
coverage of the Olympics for US TV over to PBS or declaring it open to all
producers as if it were a news story. 

  And right now that's not likely to happen. The current Congress would rather
let the free market decide which huge corporation gets rich over what we watch
and I get the feeling that the President likes his soaps. 

  George 

    <<< Note 140.236 by CLUSTA::MAIEWSKI "Bos-Mil-Atl Braves W.S. Champs" >>>


>  And right now that's not likely to happen. The current Congress would rather
>let the free market decide which huge corporation gets rich over what we watch
>and I get the feeling that the President likes his soaps. 

>  George 


	Why George, letting the free market decide is, well, unamerican.

	Kevin

  As it stands now it's not really a free Market. 

  Who ever runs the Olympics has a Monopoly on providing Olympics. If you
wanted to stage your own Olympics in your back yard tomorrow without getting
approval from the various Olympic committee's you'd have no luck at all. No
Olympic athletes would participate. No nations would send their teams. Some
free market. 

  Now having that monopoly, they create another monopoly by signing an
exclusive rights contract with a Network. Now the network can go to court and
prevent anyone else from trying to cover the events. Again, some free market. 

  If you are watching from the U.S. you have one choice, watch the network that
got the contract or don't watch at all. Again, some free market. 

  A free market would happen if the justice department used anti-trust
legislation or if Congress passed new legislation requiring monopolies like the
Olympics to give broadcast and coverage rights to multiple stations or
networks. Either have each event compete for broadcast rights from a different
network or declare it all to be news and let everyone cover it the way all
the Boston stations cover the Marathon.

  If that were to happen, NBC, CBS, ABC, ESPN, TBS, NESN, or anyone else could
cover the action and the consumer would have a real choice as to what Olympic
coverage they wanted to see. That would be a free market.

  George

	So George, are you saying it would be appropriate for the US government
	to intervene in the current process that determines who will televise 
	the Olympics in the US?

	Kevin

    Well, I'm back and I survived. Details as follows:

    Left the house in Alpharetta at 10:30 am, drive to a park and ride lot,
    paid $10 to park, and we (my father, daughter and I) caught a bus to
    downtown.  The round trip bus ride was included in the price of
    parking.  Arrived downtown at the venues at 11:25 am.

    The area around the Dome, Omni and World Congress center was fairly
    crowded, but not too bad.  Some observations - 

    - the security and Olympics volunteers present almost numbered as many
    as the spectators.  Security was heavy, and any time you asked a fellow
    spectator a question it seemed an Olympics person answered it.

    - The amount of vendors is adequate to handle a crowd triple the size
    that's there.  I had no problems with lines for anything.

    - The international aspect of the free market ticket economy was a sight
    to behold.  Everyone was haggling and selling.  I couldn't get into the
    one event that was running concurrent to the gymnastics (Team
    Handball) due to the scarcity of tickets, but it was fun to watch
    everyone negotiating.

    - Beer was $4 - $5 for a 16oz'er.  At the Budweiser pavilion I happened
    across an empty hot dog trailer that was air conditioned and was set up
    with vinyl booths. Not a soul was in it, so I grabbed a cool one and
    some nachos, took off my shoes and relaxed for a while.  Quite a treat
    in the middle of it all!

    - Visited the House of Blues and saw Little Richard sprint into the
    waiting limo.  Saw the Russian heavyweight wrestler getting ready to go on
    CNN Talk Back Live.  Saw Jane Fonda outside a row of porta potties after
    the gymnastics event let out.

    - Due to the abundance of vendors, the place started to get a little
    old and tacky after a while.  Everyone was selling T-shirts, hats and
    pins.  Lots of folks were losing money big time.

    All in all a great time.  No hassles, plenty of everything, and
    EVERYONE was having fun.  The whiny journalists seem to be the only
    ones who don't like the Olympics.  Sorry, but I thought the Olympics
    were for the athletes and spectators, not the media.

    Tomorrow I go again with my younger daughter.  I should be able to get
    some volleyball tickets (I hope).

    Lovin' it in Atlanta,

    UMDan

    ps - George, the US Government is NOT the answer to the perceived
    Olympics broadcast "dilemma".  Let 'em deal with bigger issues.

>    All in all a great time.  No hassles, plenty of everything, and
>    EVERYONE was having fun.  The whiny journalists seem to be the only
>    ones who don't like the Olympics.  Sorry, but I thought the Olympics
>    were for the athletes and spectators, not the media.


In all fairness....


If I depended on a system to do my job, and the system sucked, I'd whine too.

Realize that the great preponderance of the spectators are not AT the 'pics,
and thus rely on the media for their information.  Someone like me, who is
not necessarily interested in a dream sequence about the Russian Greco-Roman
wrassler but in the wrassler himself, relies mainly on the print media.

From what I've heard, it has been incredibly difficult for them to get their
information -- especially the background information on competitors which
is so essential to any story.  

The problem escalates with the foreign journalists -- mainly because what NBC
is showing would never pass for any coverage in any country but this one.


'Saw

    
    So, I saw highlights of a baseball game between the US and Japan (the
    US mercied the Japanese team, via several long BOMBS, including 4 in a
    row).  So, this is still a demonstration sport?  The other thing that
    was interesting was it appeared (and sounded) that everyone was using
    wooden bats.
    
    Dave

Was glad to see that Gary Hall Jr. beat by the rooskie.  Oughta knock him 
down a notch.

brews

    They are using aluminum bats ( someone on the Japanese team put one in
    the upper decks, a feat few pro's have accomplished).

    Just got back from another day downtown.  Lots of people, lots of fun. 
    Watched women's Volleyball ($16 ticket for $20), and saw a great match
    - Netherlands vs S. Korea.  The digs, kills and blocks were great, with
    the Netherlands beating the Koreans 3 - 1. the Koreans seemed to rely
    more on strategy  than force, but were capable of a good kill
    nonetheless.  Great entertainment.  The Russia vs Peru match was a
    mismatch, although the Peruvians stayed close in the first match.

    Re. Saw - I realize that journalists depend on up to the minute
    information to keep their readership up to date,but the fact that a
    journalist doesn't report it does not diminish the accomplishment does
    it?

    UMDan

    Well, I guess no event is safe.  Some asshole had to go and try to make
    a statement, but, IMO, has failed.  The games will go on, and will be
    just as exciting as planned.  While the mood is a bit more somber, the
    attendance at the events was almost at 95%.

    Centennial Park will re-open tomorrow, and I imagine that it will be
    packed by people determined not to let the lunatic scare them away.

    I'm still not getting much sleep what with staying up watching the
    games and all, and I'm still amazed by the routines done by the male
    gymnasts on the rings.

    UMDan
                                              

      If any more violence has to befall anybody please let 
     it be Cris Collinsworth. I don't care if he slips in
     the shower, gets trampled by a group of Hungarian tourists
     or gets his head split open from sniper fire just get 
     the damn microphone out of his hand before he asks any-
     more idiotic questions. "Does this erase the memory of Ben 
     Johnson?" "What about the poor sportsmanship of Linford 
     Christie?" Those were the first two questions that he asked 
     Donovan Bailey after his 100 meter triumph. He didn't ask
     Bailey about the race or his emotions afterward but about
     two things that had nothing to do with Bailey. When Dennis
     Mitchell qualified for the 100, Collinsowrth asked him about
     Christie. Mitchell shook his head in disgust and walked away.
     Collinsworth's act is tiring enough on NFL football where
     his efforts to be colorful often fall with a resounding thud
     but he's completely out of his element at trackside and it
     shows. Gibe him the hook.
    

    
>     When Dennis
>     Mitchell qualified for the 100, Collinsowrth asked him about
>     Christie. Mitchell shook his head in disgust and walked away.
    
    I missed the other questions (saw the race, didn't hear the audio
    fortunately), but Collinsworth didn't just ask Mitchell about 
    Christie, more like something that amounted to how much time
    he'd have to make up to match Christie.  It really was quite 
    insulting.
    
    BTW, I didn't see it in my early-edition paper, but what was Christie's
    beef on the second false start?  Did he have one, legitimately?
    
    glenn
    

Add Tesh as well. Could someone please explain to John the
difference between the words "history" and "histrionic"?

daryll

    As long as the same "fate" that gets Collinsworth gets Tesh I'll be
    happy.  Maybe Bela can be persuaded to body slam him.

    re. - The second Christie "false start" - apparently the computer
    programmed to evaluate start times had him going off early.  Even with
    a slo-mo replay it was hard to tell and I certainly couldn't tell at full
    speed.

    Centennial Park re-opened today.  Let's pray that no more lunatics try
    and make a statement.

    Attendance at the events is still at 95%.  I may just have to see if I
    can get some diving tickets and head on down, as the Aquatic center
    looks really neat.

    UMDan
    

    
  >> BTW, I didn't see it in my early-edition paper, but what was Christie's
  >> beef on the second false start?  Did he have one, legitimately?
    
     I thought he had a beef. It seemed very very close and it was the 
     third false start in a row. Given some of the technical glitches 
     at this year's Olympics I thought it was entirely possible that
     there was something wrong with the equipment. Even if there wasn't,
     let Christie lose his Olympic title to a man not a computer. Given
     that at 36 years of age Christie probably won't be competing in
     another Olympics I don't blame him for being upset. The victory lap
     was a bit much but up to that point I think he reacted like any-
     one would have in the same situation. BTW, no one was going to beat
     Bailey that night.
    
    
    

Meanwhile, semi-local Allen Johnson won the 110m high hurdles.

His performance was most startling considering he hit and/or knocked over
all but a couple of the hurdles. He may have accidently hit on a new
style which is running through the hurdles rather than over 'em.

In case anyone is intersted, I found a nice US-ATF page with bios and
stuff at

	http://www.doitsports.com/usatf/athletes/bios/

TTom

Dear NBC,

May we please see some real track/field coverage now? We got real sick of
listening to John Tesh make comments like "He fell, Tim, how much of a deduction
is that?" and "What a moving, compelling story."

And please show actual events, not edited highlights like Carl Lewis winning the
long jump between commercials. It kind of ruins the spontaneity that makes
watching sports so enjoyable. I know the races are often short, but I'm sure you
can find other things going on in Olympic Stadium.

Oh, and one more thing. How about showing the medal ceremony for at least one
other country besides the U.S? I believe some of them have actually won gold and
they even have their own national anthems.

    
      A whole bunch of very valid points there. Unfortunately, NBC has to
     pander to the lowest common denominator so you won't be getting your
     wishes. It isn't sports fans that put these types of events over the
     top, it's women and casual sports fans. That's why things like figure
     skating do so well on tv. Folks who don't know Michael Jordan from
     Vernon Jordan will watch because there is a certain amount of grace
     and beauty coupled with athletic daring do. Same with gymnastics. It 
     was obvious from the beginning of the games that Domonique Morceanu 
     was cast in the role of darling of these Olympic games and NBC hasn't 
     missed a chance yet to flash her face on the screen. Judging from the
     numbers the American public is eating it up. It doesn't make for good 
     sport but it makes for good tv. The national anthems is a similar
     thing. It would be right to show gold medal ceremonies for quite a 
     few different countries but Americans want to see Americans so we get
     hours of coverage of a trash made-for-tv sport like beach volleyball 
     instead. It bugs some of us but we're in the minority.
    

One question: did the PPV of the lasted Olympics fail so miserably that
they din't even consider it thised time?

I heard a pretty good suggestion that let NBC do whatever they want in
terms of "free" viewing.

Make up a series of PPV events where you can actually watch a_entire
event of your choice. You want beach volleyball, you watch beach
volleyball. Wanna see that USA-Cuba baseball game, you got it.

TTom

The president of NBC said that they lost so much money on the red, white, and 
blue PPV event last time that it would have been cheaper for them to fly the 
viewers who bought the ppv to Barcelona and given them tickets to the event.

Considering the huge mix of people watching, I don't thing NBC is doing too 
bad.  They certainly have cut down on the "up close and personal" bs that took 
away from the events.  As far as the medal ceremonies goes, who needs 'em?  I 
know the songs, and don't need to watch someone lip synching.

brews

    
    	We had a whole week of gymnastics and then they show the exhibition
    last night. Who needed to see the exhibition, there were no medals
    involved? Ping Pong or badminton would have been more interesting.
    
    Ron

I see where ol' Joe Frazier is mad cause Ali was chosen to light the
torch instead of him.

Frazier is claiming that Ali shoulda never been the one since he was a
draft dodger.

Frazier says hisself or George Foreman woulda been better'n Ali.

BTW, ol' Joe's got hisself a new autobiography out...

TTom

Joe's right but Joe never had Ali's marketability. George couldn't get away
from the dinner table.........

    
> I see where ol' Joe Frazier is mad cause Ali was chosen to light the
> torch instead of him.
> 
> Frazier is claiming that Ali shoulda never been the one since he was a
> draft dodger.
    
    Frazier's been at this jealous feud with Ali for years.  He needs to
    get a life.
    
    But seriously, if it weren't Ali that got to light the torch, does
    he really think he's second in line?  Have a clue Joe...
    
    glenn
    

    
  >> But seriously, if it weren't Ali that got to light the torch, does
  >> he really think he's second in line?  Have a clue Joe...
    
     No kidding. Joe has obviously sparred a few too many rounds without
     his head gear. If it weren't for Ali Joe Frazier would be known as
     the guy who got pummeled by George Foreman or as the whacko that let 
     his son Marvis get the hell beat out of him by Larry Holmes. If Joe 
     had been up there lighting the torch everyone under the age of 30
     would be wondering who the hell is that lighting the torch. There may
     have been better choices than Ali (I can't think of any) to light the 
     torch but Joe Frazier sure as hell wasn't one of them.

I guess another choice coulda been Holyfield but he got jobbed and din't
win the gold.

Frazier reminds me of Floyd Patterson who to this day still calls him
Cassius Clay. Course, Ali made 'im pay bad for this and other things
Patterson said.

Ali was a great choice, a great boxer and now that he's lost most of his
faculties, he's being accepted as a national treasure.

TTom

	You know, when I was growing up I never liked Ali.  Now that nature is 
	catching up with him I can appreciate what he did.  Ali became famous 
	not only for his boxing skills but also for his self marketing.  He 
	stood out back then.  Nowadays, lots of athletes self promote. Ali 
	wouldn't stand out.

	Kevin

  >> You know, when I was growing up I never liked Ali.  Now that nature is 
  >> catching up with him I can appreciate what he did.  Ali became famous 
  >> not only for his boxing skills but also for his self marketing.  He 
  >> stood out back then.  Nowadays, lots of athletes self promote. Ali 
  >> wouldn't stand out.

     Ali stood out in any crowd then and he would now. He not only talked
     the talk, he walked the walk. He was loud and brash and cocky but he 
     also beat the unbeatable George Foreman when Foreman was a 28 year old 
     terminator and he waged some of the greatest wars in heavyweight boxing 
     history against the like of Joe Frazier and Ken Norton. While guys like 
     Deion Sanders and Andre Agassi try and create an image, Ali never had to 
     because he was the genuine article. He never caved into white America or
     the corporate ideal of how a black heavyweight champion in 1960s America
     should comport himself. He was anti-Vietnam and he was willing to suffer
     the slings and arrows as a consequence. In this era when heavyweight 
     boxers are more famous for their out of ring exploits and for who they 
     don't fight and have all of the social conscience of George Jetson, some-
     one like Ali would seem like a brother from another planet.
    

I always was and prolly always will be a major fan of Ali.

TTom

    
    	Ditto.
    
    Claybone

    
>> Another Merkin rassler, Kurt Angle, won the gold at "220 lbs". He had to
>> go to overtime to beat a_Iranian who showed very poor form by raising his
>> own hand as if he won. The ref had to pull it down afore raising Angle's.
    
    
    Another Pittsburgh native doing well.....

	Yabbut, he cried like a baby.  Seems like a lot more athletes are 
	doing that this go round, whether winning or losing.

	Kevin

It's a 90s thing, Kevin.

Hey, I got no problem with a guy who just beat a danged ol' foreigner
shedding a tear or two. 

Maybe you should have a talk with 'im, eh ;-}

TTom

    
      Nice to see that Carl Lewis has decided to stop
     begging for a spot on the 4x100 relay team. Any-
     one, who ever wondered why Lewis wasn't more pop-
     ular in this country, was provided with ample 
     reason by Lewis' selfish campaign. Who would you 
     have liked kicked off, Carl so you, who finished 
     dead last in the 100 at the Trials, could compete? 
     Leave it to Carl to take all of the luster off of
     his long jump victory and put himself at arms dis-
     tance from the American public again.

>     Nice to see that Carl Lewis has decided to stop
>     begging for a spot on the 4x100 relay team.
    
    Of course Carl's cause was helped out by the dramatists at NBC, who
    asked "how can you leave him off the 4x100 now?" after he won the long
    jump the other night...
    
    glenn
    

I like what one of the guys who actually qualified for the team said:
"Lewis finished buck naked last!"

I wonder if'n this will elevate Lewis' status to the penultimately least
liked Olympic gold medal winner, edging closer to OJ...

TTom

> I wonder if'n this will elevate Lewis' status to the penultimately least
> liked Olympic gold medal winner, edging closer to OJ...
    
    I shudder to think of the possibilities we might come up with for an
    event in which OJ won Olympic gold... ;-)
    
    Perhaps you've confused OJ with Sugar Rim?
    
    glenn
    

I'm pretty sure he was on one of them speed relay teams when he was at
Southern Cal. It was either the 4x100 or 4x200.

TTom

I heard that Lewis is going to ask to be included on the Dream Team so 
that he can get his 10th gold there...

While I agree with the coach's arguments against Lewis not being on the
relay team, I believe he and that punk Drummond are fools not to recognize
the significance of this man in American and Olympic track history.  His
accomplishments are so great that they have forced this controversy, despite
the fact that he isn't as fast as the 6 guys on the team.  To publicly
"diss" the guy, citing his last-place finish in the trials (due to leg
craps, BTW) and refusal to practice with a team that was already chosen,
is COMPLETE AND ARROGANT DISRESPECT.

I have grown to have high respect for Carl Lewis over the years.  Sure,
he promoted himself after his first Olympics, but I didn't see that
in subsequent years.  And his competitive nature and talents have
been a testament to his greatness, much as Ali's were (as Tommy so
perfectly stated).

>        <<< Note 140.269 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>
>                                 -< OK by me >-
>
>It's a 90s thing, Kevin.
>
>Hey, I got no problem with a guy who just beat a danged ol' foreigner
>shedding a tear or two. 
>
>Maybe you should have a talk with 'im, eh ;-}
>
>TTom


	Not me.  I wrestled at 145 in high school.  I've picked up a few lbs.
	but not nearly that much.

	Kevin

In any case, I'd rather see ol' Kurt crying that the rest of 'em whining.

I aint never seen so much Olympic caliver bellyaching.

Ya got the athletes whining about who's on the team and some of 'em going
home in a snit. Ya got the masses whining cause the TV coverage stinks.
Ya got the fans whining cause they're being searched.

They oughta just make it a freakin event!~

TTom

  Carl Lewis deserves to be on the relay team and should be on the relay team. 

  Lewis has done as much promote track and field as anyone else in the sport.
He's won an incredible number of gold medals and he hardly ever complains about
anything. Even when Ben Johnson beat him in the 100 and everyone knew Johnson
was using performance enhancement drugs Lewis hardly said a word and waited
quietly until the officials sorted it out and gave him the gold medal he
deserved. 

  In all the interviews he did not once ask to be on the team. When NBC asked
him about it he said that he'd like to be on the team (who wouldn't) but he
went on to say that he didn't want to knock anyone off the team and that if he
didn't make it he'd just go on enjoying the Olympics. It's been NBC that's been
fanning the flames, not Lewis. 

  Lewis is almost as fast as the other guys who are running and he has tons of
experience running relays. He'd be the perfect guy to put in the number 2 spot
where he'd handle the baton twice while leaving plenty of time for the best two
guys to make up any ground needed.

  George

>  Lewis is almost as fast as the other guys who are running ...

A new standard of excellence

  >> While I agree with the coach's arguments against Lewis not 
  >> being on the relay team, I believe he and that punk Drummond 
  >> are fools not to recognize the significance of this man in 
  >> American and Olympic track history.  His accomplishments are 
  >> so great that they have forced this controversy, despite the 
  >> fact that he isn't as fast as the 6 guys on the team.  

     What prompted this mini-controversy is the insistence of a few 
     people to give Carl a spot due to his place in history. Chief 
     amongst those folks was Carl himself. By all accounts, Carl 
     lobbied hard for a spot and insisted that the American people
     wanted him on the team. Carl, who already has nine gold medals,
     eaned everything he ever got and now he wanted something to be 
     given to him at the expense of someone else's Olympic dream.
     If there was any arrogance on anyone's part it was Carl's.
    

RE        <<< Note 140.281 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>>  Lewis is almost as fast as the other guys who are running ...
>
>A new standard of excellence

  In a relay raw speed is not everything. Passing the baton is not nearly as
simple as it looks and more than once the fastest team has lost because one of
the runners muffed the handoff and either had to go back to pick it up or just
lost a couple strides because their timing was not right. 

  For the 1st and last guys you can go with speed but the 2nd and 3rd guys each
have to pass the baton twice and in those two spots experience in matching
speed and handing off the baton can mean the difference between several seconds
so if they are several 10ths of a second slower they more than make up for it. 

  George 

RE        <<< Note 140.282 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     What prompted this mini-controversy is the insistence of a few 
>     people to give Carl a spot due to his place in history. Chief 
>     amongst those folks was Carl himself. 

  When did you hear him saying any of this?

  I saw several interviews with Lewis and never once did he ask to be on the
team. In each interview he was asked by someone on NBC if he wanted to be on
the team and he said yes he would like to run but each time he qualified that
by saying that it wasn't his choice, he didn't want to bump anyone from the
team, he'd be just as happy to enjoy watching other events, etc.

  These are the interviews he's given on NBC. Is there some other network or
outlet where he's saying anything that does not match what he's telling NBC? 

  George

from Sportszone:

	"Lewis calls off campaign for relay spot"

   ATLANTA -- Carl Lewis on Thursday that he will stop his campaign for a
   spot on the U.S. 400-meter relay team and an unprecedented 10th gold
   medal. He did, however, say he'll take a position if it's offered.

I guess that means he was lobbying. In fack, he started going for the
slot almost immediately after he lost on the track.

TTom

  >> Is there some other network or outlet where he's saying anything 
  >> that does not match what he's telling NBC? 

     Yes.
    
    

    
    >> In a relay raw speed is not everything. Passing the baton is 
    >> not nearly as simple as it looks and more than once the fastest 
    >> team has lost because one of the runners muffed the handoff and 
    >> either had to go back to pick it up or just lost a couple strides 
    >> because their timing was not right. 
     
       All the more reason not to include Lewis. These guys have been
       practicing the relay without him for some time now. Let's be
       clear, they'd win with Lewis in the lineup but without him they 
       have a shot at a world record.
    

  This is a typical case where the media and press decided they wanted to run
with a story whether it was there or not and guys who love to hate sports
stars they think are arrogant gobbled it up.

  In each interview that I saw NBC informed Lewis that there was controversy
over him wanting to run. In each interview Lewis tried to correct them saying
that while he'd like to run he wasn't going to push the issue and would be
perfectly happy to just watch the rest of the Olympics along with the rest
of the spectators.

  So now after seeing announcers 1st hand continually misinterpret what Lewis
was saying I'm suppose to believe that reporters for the Globe really got the
story right? I'm suppose to believe that Lewis told them the side of the story
being pushed by NBC instead of the side of the story he gave himself in the
interview? 

  Right,
  George

George,

I suggest a quick cruise of almost any news/sports web site and you'll
see Lewis quoted by many other sources spouting his drivel about wanting
to be on the relay team.

So far, I've read story today in USA Today, CNN, and Sportszone all
quoting Lewis hisself. Of course, if'n you wanna believe that Lewis is
really a straight up guy and that the NBC interviews represent the whole
story, go fer it.

The volume of information is stacked on the other side, however.

TTom

  >> This is a typical case where the media and press decided 
  >> they wanted to run with a story whether it was there or 
  >> not and guys who love to hate sports stars they think are 
  >> arrogant gobbled it up.

     Wrong again, Johnny One-note. Yesterday's papers (not just
     the Globe) contained quotes of Lewis telling reporters that
     the American public wanted to see him in the relay. Lewis
     then proceeded to ask a gathered crowd if they wanted to see 
     him in the relay. The answer was a resounding "yes." He also
     went on CNN Talkback Live and implored people to call US Olympic
     Committee in his support. Your all-purpose standard spiel about 
     "guys who like to hate sports stars blah blah blah" has nothing 
     to do with nothing.
      
  >> In each interview that I saw NBC informed Lewis that there 
  >> was controversy over him wanting to run. In each interview 
  >> Lewis tried to correct them saying that while he'd like to 
  >> run he wasn't going to push the issue and would be

     NBC is not the only news source there is or a very good one.
     
    

    
    I have to seriously question the intelligence of anyone who
    puts Carl Lewis anywhere near the same class as OJ Simpson.
    Its clear to me that Carl Lewis has learned a great deal
    since he burst onto the track and field scene, and has used
    this knowledge to improve himself as a person.

  Carl Lewis deserves to be on the dream team and should be on the dream team. 

  Lewis has done as much promote the Olympics as anyone else in the sport.
He's won an incredible number of gold medals and he hardly ever complains 
about
anything. Even when Ben Johnson beat him in the 100 and everyone knew Johnson
was using performance enhancement drugs Lewis hardly said a word and waited
quietly until the officials sorted it out and gave him the gold medal he
deserved. 

  In all the interviews he did not once ask to be on the team. If NBC asked
him about it hed say that he'd like to be on the team (who wouldn't) but he'd
go on to say that he didn't want to knock anyone off the team and that if he
didn't make it he'd just go on enjoying the Olympics. It'd be NBC that's 
fanning the flames, not Lewis. 

  Lewis is almost as fast as the other guys who are running and he has tons of
experience playing basketball. He'd be the perfect guy to put in the number 2 
spot
where he'd handle the ball some while leaving plenty of time for the best four
guys to make up any points needed.

  brews

    
    Interesting conversation (NOT).  The debate is over.  Lewis will run in
    the prelims and not in the final.  Any runner that has run any of the
    rounds will get a metal.
    
    Marc
    

RE        <<< Note 140.292 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     NBC is not the only news source there is or a very good one.
     
  The question is not whether NBC is a source of news, the question is should
I believe Carl Lewis himself or some reporter claiming to be quoting Lewis?

  I heard a reporter practically begging Carl Lewis to admit that there was
a controversy then I heard Carl Lewis himself with his own words saying that
he would like to run but would be happy to just watch the rest of the Olympics.

  The sports press lies all the time when it comes to trying to spin a story
so that some athlete comes off sounding more arrogant than he really is. I have
every reason to believe that those stories are not true since I heard Lewis
himself stating his position.

  George

      Lewis doesn't deserve to be on the relay team.  If he didn't qualify,
    then that should be that, regardless of "what he's done for the
    sport" or if he had da cramps!
    
      If it was anyone else that didn't qualify because of cramps, they
    would be sitting at home watching, which is what Lewis should do.
    
      Did anyone catch the up close interview with M. Johnson the other
    night?  He even stated that Carls time is up.
    
      Lewis won his gold, now bow out.
    
      Tim

    
    	For the 4x100 relay they took the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th place
    finishers from the 100 meter trials. We all know that Lewis finished
    8th at these trials. The controversy started because people wanted
    to know why the took the 6th place person and didn't take 1, 2, 3, 4.
    
    Ron

    The coach then said he took the 6th seed to add experience to the
    team... How can he possible say he wanted to add experience and took
    the 6th seeded over Lewis at the 8th seed... The coach started the
    controversy not Lewis by taken the 6th and then giving that lame
    answer....

  Anyone see Michael Johnson smoke the field in the 200 yesterday? Those gold
shoes really move. His 19.32 was a new World Record breaking the one he set in
the same stadium in June. 

  It was great to see Dan O'Brien win the decathlon. He was struggling in the
1500 but his last javelin throw was his personal best at 219 feet, 6 inches
and it gave him a big enough lead so the pressure was off. He finished with
8824 which was well ahead of Germany's Frank Busemann who took the silver at
8706. 

  George

> Anyone see Michael Johnson smoke the field in the 200 yesterday? Those gold
> shoes really move. His 19.32 was a new World Record breaking the one he set in
> the same stadium in June. 
    
    Stunning to see the world record broken by over a 1/3 of a second in a
    distance as short as the 200 m.  The Moment of the Olympics for me...
    
    glenn
    

  
  >> The sports press lies all the time when it comes to trying to 
  >> spin a story so that some athlete comes off sounding more arrogant 
  >> than he really is. I have every reason to believe that those stories 
  >> are not true since I heard Lewis himself stating his position.

     He was on CNN Talkback Live encouraging folks to call the US 
     Olympic committee. He, Carl Lewis, not a hologram of him being 
     used to discredit him for some sinister purpose. He was also
     playing to a crowd after his long jump, politicking for a spot
     on the relay team. That could have been a Carl Lewis double or
     Glen Waugaman could be right that you're pathologically unable
     to admit when you're wrong. I vote for the latter.
     
    

RE        <<< Note 140.302 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need to resort to name calling." >>>

>That could have been a Carl Lewis double or
>     Glen Waugaman could be right that you're pathologically unable
>     to admit when you're wrong. I vote for the latter.
     
  I simply stated what I saw. And while I've heard 2nd or 3rd hand reports of
the other things you've mentioned I have yet to hear anyone here say they
actually saw those things.

  Were you watching CNN Talkback Live when he made those statements? Did you
actually see him "playing to a crowd after his long jump"? If so how do you
know that he was "politicking for a spot on the relay team." when playing to
the crowd? Maybe he was just celebrating his gold medal.

  Lewis has the experience and proven cool necessary to pass the baton under
pressure. He should run the 2nd leg.

  George

I saw them things.

George, you got the bad side of things, here.

Ol' Carl Lewis hisself is proof that he was campaigning, lobbying,
whining, cajoling and doing any thing he thought he could do to get on
this relay team.

We can make of it what we want but there is no denying that he was
promoting Carl Lewis. He's been all over the TV, press, and about ever
other form of media.

You have me at a disadvantage on what he said on NBC. I watch very little
of their production and virtually never do I listen to it. Lasted night,
the SuperTrucks were running so naturally that got the centre court. In
fack, I din't even see Lewis win his gold.

TTom

    I was disgusted watching Bob Costas gush over the US women's soccer
    team after they won the gold medal, considering NBC's refusal to carry
    more than a token highlight or two of any of their games.  What
    hypocrites!  If you're not gonna cover a sport, then don't.  Pretending
    that it's a big deal to you after you refuse to cover the event only
    makes you look even more foolish.
    
    NAZZ

re: Michael Johnson 200

Wow. Wow! The world-record shattering time of 19.32 is equivalent to running two
world-record 100m IN A ROW. This man is the World's Fastest Human. Most
incredible performance of this Olympics.

The shoes are ugly (IMHO), but I'm sure there's gold in it for Nike.

re: O'Brien

It's nice to see someone work so hard for so long to achieve redemption for past
failures.

re: USA baseball

The USA loses to Japan in the semifinals. Is there any way we can get our Boys
of Summer to the Olympics? Maybe every four years have a 3-week All-Star break?
If we send our best in basketball, why not in baseball? 

-fhl

  I agree on women's soccer. It would have been fun to see more of that. For
some reason the woman's game seemed more fun to watch then the men.

  As for a baseball dream team, it's not likely. They are already starting
and ending in the snow. Also keep in mind that a number of the top stars in
major league baseball would not be playing on the U.S. team.

  George

    
> As for a baseball dream team, it's not likely. They are already starting
> and ending in the snow. Also keep in mind that a number of the top stars in
> major league baseball would not be playing on the U.S. team.
    
    I wouldn't say it's unlikely either.  The IOC is pushing for it big 
    for Australia in 2000, and the Players' Association is saying that 
    they'd accomodate.
    
    glenn
    

    It seems that the only "added value" NBC has given the Olympics are the 
    camera at the track and field stadium and the "divecam" at the diving
    platform.
    
    All the bios which drag out before the events haven't built up the
    anticipation as NBC had hoped for. The Olympics don't need the
    hype...the games are the thing.
    
    Then of course this fiasco with Lewis. Hey Carl, step aside, it's
    someone else's turn. Good for you, you have nine gold medals including
    one this year.
    
    Costas and NBC of course see an opportunity here if Lewis runs in the
    men's 4x100 relay. Costas apparently got a bit defensive when he caught
    some heat over the controversy.
    
    If Lewis had gone to North Carolina to train with the squad and had
    kept quiet about all of this then maybe when Burrell (sp) came up lame
    the possibility of Lewis running on the team could happen.
    
    There are other factors here. If I recall Lewis is a former anchor man.
    That means he is not as experienced passing off the baton. So if you
    put him on the team do you bump the present anchor, who I think is 
    Michael Johnson? I don't think so.
    
    I get a bigger kick out of seeing someone win his/her first gold medal 
    moreso than someone getting a 10th.
    
    I guess we'll find out real soon who will be replacing Burrell.

RE      <<< Note 140.308 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    I wouldn't say it's unlikely either.  The IOC is pushing for it big 
>    for Australia in 2000, and the Players' Association is saying that 
>    they'd accomodate.
    
  I don't see the owners in that list. And even if they did go along how would
they pull it off? Go back to 154 games or break out the snow shoes?

  Considering how much trouble they are having getting an agreement signed I
don't see how this could be done. Would they add this discussion to the current
talks risking further delay in getting an agreement or try to tack on something
later?

  George

RE                      <<< Note 140.309 by DONVAN::SCOPA >>>

>    All the bios which drag out before the events haven't built up the
>    anticipation as NBC had hoped for. The Olympics don't need the
>    hype...the games are the thing.
    
  Before the Olympics the president of NBC stated that they knew the people who
read Track and Field Magazine wouldn't like the way they were going to cover
track and field but if they did it that way no one would watch. He said they
were adding the personal bios to attract women because while men are mostly
interested in who wins, women want to know who the athletes are. 

  And it's working. NBC is pulling in record ratings and the percentage of
women in the TV audience is up from 51% in Spain to 55% in Atlanta.

  George

    
    
    re .311
    
     I think you've said that before. A couple of times. 

    
    >> It seems that the only "added value" NBC has given the Olympics 
    >> are the camera at the track and field stadium and
    
       I love the track level real speed camera. It gives you a good
       perspective of just how fast those guys and gals are motoring 
       and to watch their footspeed reminds one of the scene in Superman 
       the movie where the young Clark Kent is racing the train except
       this is for real. For me, it's the single best thing about NBC's 
       coverage.

St. George, defender of NBC.

I don't know about any kinda records for anything in terms of who watches
what but I've never watched so little of these Olympics.

If'n anything happens, good ol' ESPN will show it, which ain't always the
case with NBC.

TTom

    From a Point standpoint how did Dan's scores in the Decath stack up
    agasint previous winners (Like Bruce Jenner)..???

Olympic record, better'n Jenner, but not a World record.

Dan was shooting for 9000 points, ended up with about 8800. He seemed
particularly distressed over his performance in the pole vault which
caused him his real grief 4 years ago.

TTom

> Considering how much trouble they are having getting an agreement signed I
> don't see how this could be done. Would they add this discussion to the current
> talks risking further delay in getting an agreement or try to tack on something
> later?
    
    Well, humankind has pulled off greater miracles, as hard as that might 
    be to believe.  All I know is that the IOC is throwing its weight around 
    about how it wants the best baseball players there, involving some 
    thinly-veiled threats about pulling the sport if it doesn't happen.
    
    Granted, such a concept wouldn't match basketball's Dream Team 
    in marketing clout, but there is opportunity there.  As it stands
    now, Olympic baseball is getting little to no air time, and no 
    one much cares about its games.  I figure if'n there's money in it, 
    it can happen.  Who's watching much MLB baseball while these games 
    are going on, as a point of reference?
    
    glenn
    

RE        <<< Note 140.314 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>St. George, defender of NBC.

  I never said this was the best type of coverage only that it is the most
popular and hence the most revenue producing type of coverage. 

  Personally I'd rather see the monopoly broken up and replaced by a system
where by each event would be free to contract with a separate network, cable
channel or super station and I'd like to see the bio's cut back to ABC Wide
World of Sports standards but with the system in place today that's not going
to happen. 

  George

And then each event can contract with a separate city, at a separate
time, using separate rules, etc.

Which is what they already do, for their own world champioships which are
shown on a variety of networks.

TTom

Reprinted without permission
    
Live From NBC! Drum Roll Please.
By Dave Barry
Knight-Ridder Newspapers
    
ATLANTA (KRT) -- And now for my impression of the Olympics on TV:
       
TRUMPETS: BOM! BOM! BOM-BOM BOM BOM BOM!
    
BOB COSTAS: Good evening, and as you can tell by the sound of the Olympic
Theme Song that we play almost as much as we show Kerri Strug's historic
vault, it's time for our broadcast of The Recently Videotaped Olympic Games
Featuring Americans. We're going to start by taking you right to the
track-and-field stadium, where the men's 100-meter dash is about to get under
way, despite the fact that it actually happened four hours ago.
   
TRACK COMMENTATOR: Bob, this promises to be an exciting race, featuring
Americans.

COSTAS: And what are the obstacles that these Americans have overcome to
create a Human Interest Factor for our broadcast?

TRACK COMMENTATOR: Bob, from left to right, they have overcome psoriasis,
vertigo and a bad allergy to vinaigrette dressing.

COSTAS: We'll come back to the men's 100-meter final, but right now we're
going to replay the video of Kerri Strug, an American, overcoming her ankle to
make her courageous vault.

(Kerri Strug vaults.)

COSTAS: What a human moment! Time for a commercial.

ANNOUNCER: We're IBM. We're a giant corporation with vast computer expertise.
That's why we're in charge of keeping track of all the statistics for these,
the Olympic Games of 1953. Thank you.

BOM! BOM! BOMBOM BOM BOM BOM!

COSTAS: Now we're going to take you to women's beach volleyball, where the sun
is shining brightly despite the fact that it is now 10:37 p.m. on the East
Coast.

BEACH VOLLEYBALL COMMENTATOR: Thanks, Bob. This is Holly McPeak, an American,
and as you can see in this digitized, computer-enhanced, ultra-slow-motion
Beach Cam closeup shot, she has overcome cellulite.

COSTAS: I'll say. When is she going to serve?

BEACH VOLLEYBALL COMMENTATOR: She'll be serving in about 4 seconds, Bob.

COSTAS: I'm sorry, but we don't have that kind of time, because we need to
show this Heartwarming Moment.

(Kerri Strug vaults.)

COSTAS: Now let's go out to the cycling competition, where I believe we have a
race involving an American.

CYCLING COMMENTATOR: That is correct, Bob. We have an American shown here
pedaling furiously in 637th place, with a solid chance to move up to 636th.

COSTAS: What obstacle has this American overcome?

CYCLING COMMENTATOR: Bob, he is overcoming one hellacious case of hemorrhoids.

COSTAS: We'll have more on that exciting cycling race, but right now we're
going to return to the Olympic track stadium for an update on the men's
100-meter dash.

TRACK COMMENTATOR: Bob, the race started about two seconds ago and should be
over in about eight more seconds. None of the Americans has fallen down.

COSTAS: We're going to break away from the men's 100-meter dash at this point,
but we will be covering it throughout the course of the evening. Right now,
however, we want you to see this moment, captured by our NBC cameras.

(Kerri Strug vaults.)

COSTAS: Now let's head out to the pool to check on the progress of the
American swimmers, all of whom have overcome asthma.

SWIMMING COMMENTATOR: Bob, here we see an American swimmer winning a race.
This happened earlier.

COSTAS: How much earlier?

SWIMMING COMMENTATOR: Twenty-four years, Bob. This is Mark Spitz.

COSTAS: Time for this commercial.

ANNOUNCER: We're the Nike Corporation. We pay famous athletes millions of
dollars to wear our shoes. Because of this, you, the public, pay absurdly high
prices for these shoes. Is that stupid, or what? Thank you.

BOM! BOM! BOMBOM BOM BOM BOM!

(Kerri Strug vaults.)

COSTAS: OK, right now there are exciting gold-medal competitions going on in
archery, shooting, rowing, kayaking, table tennis, softball, volleyball, team
handball and judo, so right now we're going to take you to beach volleyball.

BEACH VOLLEYBALL COMMENTATOR: Bob, as you can see, American Holly McPeak is
bending over.
    
COSTAS: I'll say.

BOM! BOM! BOMBOM BOM BOM BOM!

(Kerri Strug vaults.)

RE      <<< Note 140.317 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    Well, humankind has pulled off greater miracles, as hard as that might 
>    be to believe.  

  True, but we're talking baseball owners here, not humans.

>All I know is that the IOC is throwing its weight around 
>    about how it wants the best baseball players there, involving some 
>    thinly-veiled threats about pulling the sport if it doesn't happen.

  The baseball owners could care less if baseball is played at the Olympics.

>    Granted, such a concept wouldn't match basketball's Dream Team 
>    in marketing clout, but there is opportunity there.  As it stands
>    now, Olympic baseball is getting little to no air time, and no 
>    one much cares about its games.  

  Exactly, which is a huge reason the owners won't be interested.

>I figure if'n there's money in it, 
>    it can happen.  Who's watching much MLB baseball while these games 
>    are going on, as a point of reference?

  There's little evidence that any temporary fall in baseball ratings during
the Olympics impacts TV contracts that cover major league baseball. Also I
doubt it covers season ticket sales. Maybe there is a small fall off in box
office at the games themselves but that wouldn't be enough to shut down MLB
for the 4-5 weeks it would take to have a team practice, play some tune up
games, play any qualifying rounds then compete in the Olympics.

  We'll see if the NHL shuts down for the winter games in Nogomo 18 months
from now. No doubt if they do MLB will be looking at that but I still don't
see it happening. Hockey can always start earlier or play later since they
are indoors but baseball is already bumping into winter on both ends of the
season. They just don't have any alternatives to making up those games.

  George

    
      Hockey does make allowances for players to play in the Olympics.
     They don't shut down the league they just let some players represent
     their country while league play continues. There's absolutely no reason 
     to believe that MLB can't or won't do the same. We *are* only talking 
     two weeks every four years. I'm sure even teams in pennant races could 
     survive and make allowances for two weeks because you needn't send Tom
     Glavine if you're the Braves or Albert Belle if you're the Indians. 
     Given the amount of global exposure that it'd give MLB which sorely 
     needs all the positive publicity it can get I expect that we'll see
     major leaguers in the next Olympics.

    
    	Since Austrailia's and the United States, climates are almost
    total opposites for each month. Isn't the Sydney Olympics going to
    be held in the Nov.-Feb. time frame? So its Winter in the US, but
    Summer time in Austrailia? So there isn't a conflict with MLB?
    
    Ron

    
      I'm not sure but in '56 the games in Melbourne were held during
     what would be winter in the US.

RE        <<< Note 140.322 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>      Hockey does make allowances for players to play in the Olympics.
>     They don't shut down the league they just let some players represent
>     their country while league play continues. 

  Are you sure about that? I don't remember too many NHL stars playing in '94.

>We *are* only talking 
>     two weeks every four years. 

  The Dream team practices for several weeks before the Olympics. There was
also a flap because several Soccer players in the professional league were
told to report several weeks before the Olympics actually began.

  Not only do they have to practice but Olympic teams usually spend anywhere
from a couple weeks to several months playing tune up games before the Olympics
actually begins and in some cases they actually play qualifying rounds before
the Olympics actually starts.

>I'm sure even teams in pennant races could 
>     survive and make allowances for two weeks because you needn't send Tom
>     Glavine if you're the Braves or Albert Belle if you're the Indians. 

  If that were allowed what you would see is a low level AAA or a high level
AA squad. Do you think the Braves or Indians would be any more interested in
sending Terrel Wade or Paul Shuey? In baseball standings are so close that one
or two games can mean the difference between making the playoffs or going home.

  And even if you do send subs instead of sending the stars, what's the point?
Do you really think people are going to tune in to see a bunch of guys who are
riding the pine at the big league level?

>     Given the amount of global exposure that it'd give MLB which sorely 
>     needs all the positive publicity it can get I expect that we'll see
>     major leaguers in the next Olympics.

  But is it positive exposure? Just listen to what people are saying about the
Dream Team. They are the only U.S. team I know where Americans are actually
saying they'd like to see them lose. Do you really think baseball players
making millions a year would be received any more warmly than the basketball
players? Why would MLB risk 4-5 weeks of revenue when the exposure they would
get would probably be negative?

  George

 >> Are you sure about that? I don't remember too many NHL stars 
 >> playing in '94.

    I'm not sure. I'm positive.  Sweden wouldn't have won without
    them.
 
 >> If that were allowed what you would see is a low level AAA or a 
 >> high level AA squad. 

    Not if MLB baseball is interested in putting on a good face and they
    should be. What you get from hockey is the second-tier stars not the
    Gretzkys and Lemieuxs who their teams would never risk losing to in-
    jury. Baseball has more to gain by the exposure and there's less risk
    of injury. I would love to see Japan field an all-star pro team, a group 
    of pros from the Dominican Republic, etc. And I don't think it's beyond 
    the realm of possibility at all.

 >> Just listen to what people are saying about the Dream Team. 
 >> They are the only U.S. team I know where Americans are actually
 >> saying they'd like to see them lose. Do you really think baseball 
 >> players making millions a year would be received any more warmly than 
 >> the basketball players?

    The biggest complaint about the Dream Team is that their games are
    unwatchable because it's not a matter of if they'll win but how
    easily. I could care less how much they make and I wish you could 
    get past that. Baseball would figure to be much more interesting. 
    The American stars against the Cubans, the Japanese, the Dominicans, 
    the Mexicans. We're not talking games with completely foregone con-
    clusions there.
    

RE        <<< Note 140.326 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>    The biggest complaint about the Dream Team is that their games are
>    unwatchable because it's not a matter of if they'll win but how
>    easily. I could care less how much they make and I wish you could 
>    get past that. 

  When did you ever see me complain about how much someone makes? While I don't
care, plenty of other people do. The salaries of the Dream Team were the thing
you heard people complain about most during the 1st week of the games. 

>Baseball would figure to be much more interesting. 
>    The American stars against the Cubans, the Japanese, the Dominicans, 
>    the Mexicans. We're not talking games with completely foregone con-
>    clusions there.
    
  Baseball is different from other sports in that it is what Bill James calls a
"high compression sport". By that he means that the percentages of the winning
teams are very close to everyone else. So not only is each game very important,
baseball is also a game in which the subs play a very important part. 

  The question is, who do you think will go? Each team now has 9-10 starters
who are every day players and about 5 reserves. Just about every team has a
pitching staff consisting of a 4 man starting rotation, a closer, 2 or 3
set up men, and a couple or 3 guys who pitch long relief and get spot starts
from time to time.

  Are you suggesting they send starters and guys from the starting rotation?
Reserves and set up men or guys who do spot starts and long relief? Guys at the
top of AAA who come up for cups of coffee when guys go on the DL? If not then
you are down to the AAA-AA level. 

  The only way they would send starters would be to shut everything down for
at lest 3-4 weeks. And considering how important it is to rest the bull pen
and handle the occasional blow out I can't see them wanting to part with the
set up men, long relief, back up catcher or the 3-4 pinch hitters each team
has.

  It might work if each team was told to cover 15 players and then have the
team selected by a draft of no more than 1 player per team but still you
wouldn't be talking about stars. Unless you send guys like Belle and Glavine
the average person watching the Olympics won't know those players any better
than they know the guys who are playing now.

  George

    If you're interested Carl Lewis DID NOT run in the relay quarters this 
    morning.
    
    The semis are tonight and the final is tomorrow.
    
    MJS

    
>    Since Austrailia's and the United States, climates are almost
>    total opposites for each month. Isn't the Sydney Olympics going to
>    be held in the Nov.-Feb. time frame? 
    
    They split the difference and went with September (which does not 
    help MLB, but is not totally unworkable-- you might not see players
    from teams in pennant contention).
    
    
    glenn
    

 Glenn I figure the same amount of people that are watching MLB during the
 Cindy O's is about the same as when the O's aren't running. 2 maybe  3 folks
 and 1 of them is sleeping.....

 Seriously my guess is only the diehards are watching, casula fans aren't
 interested. 

 this Bill James quote is a beauty. If every game was so precious why do
 so very few division every go into the final week? With the wildcards the
 preciousness is worth about the same as fool's gold......

 TM that Johnny-one note - def. other side of the fence from Tommy...

RE                     <<< Note 140.330 by PECAD8::CHILDS >>>

> this Bill James quote is a beauty. If every game was so precious why do
> so very few division every go into the final week? With the wildcards the
> preciousness is worth about the same as fool's gold......

  No, you've got that exactly backwards. Look at last year. Going into the
final weekend the Braves and Reds had wrapped up the NL East and Central but the
Rockies, and Dodgers were both alive in the West and along with the Astros, and
Cubs they were all fighting for the wild card. 

  The Red Sox and Indians had wrapped up their divisions but the Mariners
and Angels needed a playoff game to decide the west and both were fighting
with the Yankees for a wild card spot down to the last game.

  Now tell me that any of those teams would have been happy to play without one
of their top 4 starters for 3-4 weeks in the summer.

  George

  >> When did you ever see me complain about how much someone makes? 

     I never said you did, George but you're saying people will have a 
     problem with a baseball 'dream team' based on how much money they 
     make. That's not an issue. It only ever seems to be an issue with 
     you.

  >> While I don't care, plenty of other people do. The salaries of the 
  >> Dream Team were the thing you heard people complain about most during 
  >> the 1st week of the games. 

     What I heard most was that the games are boring. And they were.

  >> Are you suggesting they send starters and guys from the starting 
  >> rotation?

     I'm not suggesting anything. I'm syaing it could be done and done 
     with relatively little pain. As Ron Erickson pointed out the games 
     might be held in the winter so the disruption of the season might
     be a moot point.
    

RE        <<< Note 140.332 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     What I heard most was that the games are boring. And they were.

  I've heard lots of people complain about the salaries. It is not just
an issue with me in fact it's not an issue with me at all, I could care
less what athletes make but I've heard lots of other people complain that
they destroy the amature feel of the Olympics, etc. That may not be what
MLB is looking for in terms of image.

>     I'm not suggesting anything. I'm syaing it could be done and done 
>     with relatively little pain. As Ron Erickson pointed out the games 
>     might be held in the winter so the disruption of the season might
>     be a moot point.
    
  The games are going to be played in September this time then it's almost
certainly back to the middle of the summer when they move back north. Still the
question is, what level of player would you send? I can't imagine any contender
wanting to part with any major leaguer other than a middle reliever or pinch
hitter and who would want to watch an Olympic team made up of those types of
guys?

  George

    
    	Carl Lewis could not run in this morning's 4x100 quarter final
    races, because his name was not listed on the original 6 member list
    of competitors for the US. They can add his name for the Semi's.
    
    Ron

 So George out of the 6 playoff spots last year four were already wrapped up
 and because of 6 teams being in the mix for the last 2 newly create TV revnue
 generating spots you've proved your point. I guess I need to spell out the
 words history of the league. I mean isn't your idol Bill refering to the
 history of the game when he speaks? 

 Let em' play, I'm putting my money on the Dominicans...........

 mike

RE                     <<< Note 140.335 by PECAD8::CHILDS >>>

>I guess I need to spell out the
> words history of the league. I mean isn't your idol Bill refering to the
> history of the game when he speaks? 

  I'm having trouble parsing this line. It appears that you are saying that
Bill James was talking about the time prior to the wild card playoffs when
he talked about baseball standings being close. Is that correct?

  Yes he was. Baseball was often close under the old playoffs system and
still has close races now. Sure some times someone runs away from the pack
but often times they do not.

  In 1904 Giants Owner John Brush announced his team would not play in the
World Series because he didn't want to lend credibility to his cross town
rivals the New York Highlanders (Yankees) who went into the last weekend of the
regular season alive but lost to the Boston Pilgrims (Red Sox) on the last or
2nd to last day of regular play.

  The Dodgers and Giants needed a playoff game in '62 and the Red Sox and
Tigers went down to the last game in '67. Then there was that time in the
early 60's when the Phillies, Dodgers, Giants and Cardinals were all in
the hunt with a weekend to go.

  And those are just examples of many pennant races before divisions were
created. With divisions there was the '78 Red Sox Yankees playoff, the Mets
were in a couple close races, in fact just about every year at least one league
or division has a close race and with wild cards even more teams seem to be
alive right down to the end. 

  Under these conditions I just can't see the owners agreeing to let players
go for 3-4 weeks in the summer. The only way this would work would be for
them to shut baseball down for that time and I just don't see that happening.

  George

    Great party last night.  Nice to see the athletes enjoying themselves,
    after all, the Olympics were for them, right?

    I'll enter another note later with some additional comments.  IMO these
    were the greatest Olympics ever.  Don't let the door hit your ass on
    the way out of town IOC, you bunch of spoiled, whiny brats.  Off to your
    next bribing session, I mean potential Olympic city, with you.

    UMDan

>    Great party last night.  Nice to see the athletes enjoying themselves,
>    after all, the Olympics were for them, right?

Yeah.  I had tuned in hoping to see them show a little more skin - or at least
an athlete that we know of making a damned fool of themselves... :-)

I liked the Gloria Estafan song the best.  I thought the "extreme athletes"
part of the program was boring and contrived.

    You're right, I could have lived without the bikes and skaters.  Based
    on reports down here, there were lots of folks lookin' for love in the
    Olympic Village after their events were over with.
    
    UMDan

    Anybody thinking that Carl Lewis is saying "Thank You! Thank You!" for
    NOT being put on the men's relay team? Imagine the flak had he been 
    placed on the team and they had lost? It would have been nasty...real
    nasty.
    
    NBC blew it....there was a pretty exciting boxing match going on
    yesterday while the director chose to air the equestrian event.
    
    Next Olympics will be 14 hours ahead of our time zone. When it's 9 A.M.
    on a Monday along the Eastern Seaboard it will be 11 P.M. in Sydney.

    > That could have been a Carl Lewis double or
    >     Glen Waugaman 
    
    No, if he was that fast he wouldn't have been thrown out at second that
    play.
    
    One of the beauties of MLBaseball is the criticality of each and every
    game and the importance of individual plays.  I know a guy who never
    forgave Jim Rice in 1978 for not hustling for a ball in July against
    Kansas City resulting in an inside the park homerun for the deciding
    run in one game from which he blames Rice every bit as much as many
    folks blame Buckner for depriving the Redsox of a championship.
    
    playoff in 59,62 in nl, also 46 and (I think) 42.  We know about 48,49,
    71 and 78 around here (and 1981).

    Next Olympics will be 14 hours ahead of our time zone. When it's 9 A.M.
    on a Monday along the Eastern Seaboard it will be 11 P.M. in Sydney.
    
    
    Does that really matter?  We finally had a East Coast Summer Olympics
    and most everything (especially "Prime" time) was tape delayed.  For
    example, Kerry and her famous fault happened 5+ hours earlier then when
    we say it here on the East Coast.  Yesterday's Bronze Medal Match for
    mens volleyball had concluded at least 15 minutes before on the French
    channel when it finally came on NBC.....
    
    So what's the diff?
    
    zamboni
    
    

    Here's my after the fact take/summary of the Olympics:

    Winners - 

    1. All of the Athletes.  They were able to compete in world class
    venues, eat and sleep in safety, and have at their disposal all the
    food, drink, and entertainment (Hootie and the Blowfish, Ahnold) that
    one could want.  I imagine they're going to have to pry some Olympians
    out of the Village.  More countries won medals than at any other
    Olympics in history.

    2. The fans - more people bought tickets for these Olympics than
    Barcelona and Seoul combined.  It was arguably the largest Olympics
    ever held, and it came off rather well, notwithstanding the whiny
    foreign journalists and the act of one (alleged) hero wannna be. 
    Everyone that I talked to and heard on the radio and TV had a great
    time.

    3. The City of Atlanta and ACOG - They were able to pull it all off
    without leaving us, the taxpayers of Fulton County and Georgia burdened
    (can you say Montreal?) for years to come.  While many complained about
    the "crass" commercialism of these games, it is almost to be expected
    when one has to rely on business donations to fully fund the Games. 
    The IOC knew this when they awarded them to Atlanta.

    4. MARTA - Atlanta's subway/bus system worked 24 x 7 getting everyone
    around, and by most counts it was very successful.  Traffic downtown
    was less than expected, and the massive gridlock never materialized.


    Losers - 

    1. Whiny journalists - They finally realized that despite their
    overwhelming numerical superiority (15,000 journalists vs 10,000
    athletes), they were not the story.  I doubt if anyone in London woke
    up and wondered if their local reporter was being well fed and
    chauffeured appropriately.  It's my understanding that Barcelona was
    much worse logistically than Atlanta.

    2. Olympics get rich quick people - Just about everyone who hoped to
    get rich off of the Games didn't.  The vendors didn't, house renters
    didn't, and parking lot entrprenuers didn't.  After attending events for
    the better part of a day, the last thing you wanted to do was hit the
    bars and go partying.  The great masses that everyone predicted never
    appeared, much to the chagrin of all the locations that put on events
    to coincide with the Games.  The local "festivals" that I'm aware of
    all withered and died after 3 -4 days.

    And I wish Billy Payne would have dropped down into a three point
    stance and driven old Juan Antonio Samaranch right off the stage.  The
    pompous asses that the IOC consist of hopefully will never walk the
    streets of Atlanta again.  They were pissed that they lost control of
    the Games to the corporate sponsors.  If their mandate for the future is
    a requirement that the government must be involved in the Games, then,
    IMO, after Salt Lake City in 2002 I doubt you will see another USA
    Olympics.  I have a hard time believing that any state or local government
    will be able to convince their taxpayers to come up with about
    $1 Billion to put on the games.  Hell, trying to get a new baseball,
    basketball or football stadium is hard enough, let alone a complete
    complement of venues.

    As was stated earlier, more tickets were sold to this Olympics than
    Seoul and Barcelona combined (9 million +).  Sydney will only sell
    about 5 million.  To pull off this event was a minor miracle, and I
    for one am extremely proud of the effort put forth.

    UMDan   
     

    Well I found the answer to my track question.  Here is the 1500 meter
    result
    
    MEDAL  ATHLETE                         COUNTRY                     TIME
    =====  =======                         =======                     ====
    Gold   Noureddine Morceli              Algeria                  3:35.78
    Silver Fermin Cacho                    Spain                    3:36.40
    Bronze Stephen Kipkorir                Kenya                    3:36.72
    
    
    This must have been quite an exciting race.  Might I ask for those who
    were around Saturday: Did NBC cover this live?  Did they use up 3 1/2
    precious minutes - sans commercial - to view this to the apparently
    small minority of real track fans?
    
    But as I said before, the Olympics has come to belong to the George
    Maiewski type of fan which seems to be the majority (and this is not
    intended negatively - to each and each his own).  Perhaps what NBC did
    with this Olympics should be catorgorized under another name than
    Sports so that this legion of fans won't have to say "I hate sports but
    I love the Olympics".

    
    The 1500 was carried live.  Morceli was just barely in the lead with
    exactly one lap to race when the current 2nd place runner fell,
    disrupted all the runners behind and suddenly Morceli was 20 feet
    ahead.  He held on to win, but in my opinion Cacho was the winner.
    
    Marc
    

You have under winners:

>    4. MARTA - Atlanta's subway/bus system worked 24 x 7 getting everyone
>    around, and by most counts it was very successful.  Traffic downtown
>    was less than expected, and the massive gridlock never materialized.

Every account I've read up here stopped short of saying that MARTA was a
disaster, but did say that it was *extremely* slow.

That being said, if that was the worst part of the Olympics (other than the
Unabubba), then they were successful Olympics.

Other than this, my perception is pretty much the same as Dan's.

For each person who expresses concern about the "crass commercialism" - I'd
like to ask them if they'd rather the money came out of their pocket.  This
even tempers my complaints about NBC - if they didn't pay the big bucks (and
collect the commercial revenue to cover it), I wouldn't be seeing the Games
on TV, and my entire "Olympic experience" would be had through a newspaper.

Samaranch has his head way up his butt if he thinks governments (and the
people that fund them) are going to foot the bill for what is a tremendous
financial undertaking.

Roland

    
      The general consensus seems to be that Atlanta and the organ-
     izers and NBC deserve a C grade and the actual competition gets 
     an A. There were numerous technical glitches and transportation
     problems and Atlanta is being called one of the ugliest cities
     in America. But the track and field comp was some of the best
     in recent memory and there were the usual surprise stories like
     Michell Smith and the Nigerian soccer team. And Atlanta's citizens
     get kudos for their hospitality.
      

  The C grade for NBC is probably about right but the one thing I've noticed
over the years is that no one has ever given network coverage anything close
to an A.

  Even in the ABC years which are now looked back on with fondness the critics
always panned the network for too many commercials and for only showing events
where the U.S. was expected to do well.

  To cover 600+ events averaging 2 hours each that would be 1200 hours in 15
days or 80 hours a day. Sure some events like the 100 meter dash are quick but
add in the heats and at least some explanation of who's running and the minutes
would add up quickly.

  It's just too big. It would take a minimum of 20 free channels to squeeze
that 80 hours down to the 4 hours per day when people would want to see the
events and the red ink needed to record the money lost would be staggering.

  The low grade for NBC might be justified if you looked at it strictly from
a sports point of view but I doubt if any of us were CEO of NBC that we'd be
demanding much of a change. If we were, we wouldn't be hanging around the
corner office very long.

  George

    The Atlanta Journal "graded" the Olympics in todays edition, and the
    results are as follows:

    People of Atlanta - A+

    The Spectators - A+

    The Athletes - A+

    MARTA - A- (Yes it ran slow at times, but by and large it suffered few
    physical breakdowns and was largely responsible for keeping car happy
    Atlantans at bay)

    Billy Payne - B+ (maybe overhyped the games a bit)

    NBC - C

    Street Vendors - D

    Foreign Press - F

    IOC - F- (Quote from the paper - They selected one of the most
    mercantile cities on Earth to host the Centennial Games, demanded the
    most expensive and elaborate Olympics in history and then started
    crabbing that it was way too commercial and tacky.  IOC President Juan
    ANtonio Samarach, the former functionary for fascist dictator Francisco
    Franco, also chose to insult the city that courageously poured its
    heart into celebrating the Olympic movement with a churlish
    denunciation as merely "exceptional Games" rather than his customary
    "best Games ever."  If these were the old days, we'd be heating up the
    tar.)

    To say that Atlanta is the ugliest city on earth is absolutely
    incorrect and comes from one who probably never ventured out of the
    immediate Centennial park environ.  The overabundance of street vendors
    created a tacky, bazaar type atmosphere to be sure, but not so much so
    that the title the ugliest city on earth could ever be bestowed on it.

    UMDan

    
    
        Don't worry if Boston is granted the 2008 games they will bring
    ugly to a whole new height.
    
    
    
    Chap

RE        <<< Note 140.351 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>  >> To cover 600+ events averaging 2 hours each 
>    
>     I doubt the average is anywhere close to two hours each.

  If you wanted to cover an event so that no one would complain the average
would probably go way over 2 hours per gold medal event. 

  Take the 100 meter dash. At the minimum you would want to cover each heat
from the time the runners came out onto the track until they left. Just from
what we saw that appears to be about 10 minutes per event. Add a pre-game in
which a brief history of the event was given along with just the sports
oriented bio's of each athlete in each heat and the minutes would add up
quickly before you even got to the final.

  And that's a short event. Now do coverage of every basketball game, every
soccer match, every tennis match, every softball game, every volley ball game,
regular and beach, according to the standards used for covering a major league
baseball or basketball game and that's easily 3 hours per game never mind 3
hours per gold medal. 

  For example in Men's basketball there were about 6 teams in each of 2
divisions. Every team played every other team in their division. That's about
34 basketball games to determine 1 gold medal. Tell me that wouldn't blow your
2 hour average per gold medal out of the water on that event.

  And if you left one of those games out some basketball fan from some nation
visiting the United States would complain that they didn't get to see their
team play. 

  George

    
   >> To say that Atlanta is the ugliest city on earth is absolutely
   >> incorrect and comes from one who probably never ventured out of the
   >> immediate Centennial park environ.  
    
      The quote was, "one of the ugliest cities in America". Dave Barry 
      called Atlanta "butt ugly" and said the architecture in downtown
      Atlanta reminded of underground parking garages. Bob Ryan called 
      the city "ugly and soulless". I'm sure their are uglier cities 
      in the entire world but in America Atlanta is vying for top honors.
    

    
       re .354
    
       NBC did show every heat of the march to the 100 meter title and
      it still didn't come anywhere near two hours. No one wants to see
      every minute of every sport but when NBC wastes hours on beach
      volleyball, mountain biking and synchronized swimming then I think
      a grade of C is awfully generous.

>    The Atlanta Journal "graded" the Olympics in todays edition, and the
>    results are as follows:

Is this not similar to Hal rating Albert Belle as an all-around ballplayer?

    You ever been to Atlanta, Tommy?  There are many areas that comprise
    "Atlanta" outside the core city that are beautiful. Am I saying that
    Atlanta is a stunning city whose downtown is on par with Paris? 
    Hardly.  But I don't think that it's in the running for one of the
    ugliest cities in the US.

    And I would never put much stock in Dave Barry's architectual reviews
    of an outhouse, let alone a city. 

    And as I stated earlier, unless the IOC relaxes its "mandate" of having
    government involvement in the funding of the Olympics, IMO neither Boston 
    nor any other US city will see another Olympics after 2002.

    UMDan

    
    
       I wasn't impressed with Paris.

    
    
      >> Don't worry if Boston is granted the 2008 games they will bring
      >> ugly to a whole new height.
    
         Boston, particularly the Back Bay and the South End, has some of 
         the best 19th century architecture in the country. However, un-
         like Atlanta our politicians are more interested in "what's in it
         for me" than in showcasing the city and reaping any rewards that
         the hosting the Games might bring. Too many palms to grease and too
         many shiftless brothers-in-law that will have to get no-show jobs
         for the Games to ever land here. We have the smarts and the talent
         here. Unfortunately, we also have a lot of small thinkers in seats
         of power.

    
    
     >> I wasn't impressed with Paris.
    
        Translation: the hotdogs sucked and hardly anyone speaks English.

    
    
       Actually the Strip Joints sucked. McDonalds Sucked. Food tasted
    terrible. Cab Drivers were ruder than NY. I found most of the
    neighborhoods had a real bad odor coming out of them.
    
    
       The Eiffle Tower and the Arc De Triumph were very impressive though.
    

    
    
       And the regular people weren't too friendly!!!
    
    
    

    
    .355 is obviously speaking from experience - NOT!  Just another one of
    those people who let the press do their thinking for them.

    >> Just another one of those people who let the press do their 
    >> thinking for them.

       Pssst, Paul, I have a pair of tickets to the Browns season opener
       that I'll let you have real cheap becuase you're a friend.
    

    I'm pretty sure that NBC has the Olympics wrapped up until 2002,
    although it may be just through 2000.  I believe that future Olympics
    will probably have some sort of a cable TV component associated with
    them, or at least I hope so.

    Unfortunately, ratings mean money, and if the highest ratings are
    obtained by showing gymnastics and swimming, guess what we are going to
    see?  If table tennis and team handball garnered the same type of
    viewing audience that beach volleyball did we'd be watching them.

    What sports are not really "covered' in the winter Olympics?  Curling,
    cross country?  I guess since there aren't as many events in the Winter
    Olympics you get to see more of them.

    UMDan

    
    What means "becuase"?

>    What means "becuase"?

No why means "becuase". What means "huh".

   >> Atlanta is being called one of the ugliest cities in America. 
    
      "Is being called", Paul as in other people (as in more than one)
      are calling it ugly. I can understand why you'd defend it being 
      from Cleveland. Compared to Cleveland Atlanta must look like the
      Garden Of Eden - with a pro football franchise. If Cleveland looked
      like Atlanta, you'd probably still live there instead of bringing
      down property values here in Massachusetts.
    
    

    
    "I'm sure their are uglier cities in the entire world but in America
    Atlanta is vying for top honors." sure sounds like your own personal
    editorial comment.
    
    Its nice to see the information you post is based purely on b.s.
    

RE        <<< Note 140.356 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>       NBC did show every heat of the march to the 100 meter title and
>      it still didn't come anywhere near two hours. 

  It doesn't have to come near 2 hours. There are plenty of other sports for
which showing the entire event would go so far over 2 hours that the average
would get pulled up. The point is that when talking about the 100 we are
talking about 30 minutes rather than 30 seconds for a couple heats and a
final.

>No one wants to see
>      every minute of every sport but when NBC wastes hours on beach
>      volleyball, mountain biking and synchronized swimming then I think
>      a grade of C is awfully generous.

  Well this is different. If what you are saying is that there are certain
Tommy Brydie approved sports and certain Tommy Brydie non-approved sports and
that bad grades should be given to NBC for not reading your mind and
emphasizing those sports which you and people who think like you personally
approve then sure. Grade away.

  I was being a bit more open minded and recognizing that all of these events
have some following and most of them have a rather large following and that
the only way NBC could keep everyone happy would be to show them all.

  George

  Bookmakers shy away from Olympic action
  
   LAS VEGAS, Nev. - Not that any of them needed a refresher course, but
   over the last 16 days Nevada bookmakers were reminded that it takes a
   lot more effort and knowledge to bet the Olympics than it does to
   watch them. So, while NBC ratings for the Games soared, wagering on
   the international sport community's five ring circus at Silver state
   bet shops was flatter than a gymnasts tummy.
   
   One reason for the overall lack of wagering interest is that most
   people, especially professional gamblers, will not risk serious money
   on what they don't know. With the exception of men's basketball then,
   action was scant. NBC was an unwitting contributor to the handle
   malaise by not showing many of the events live. There's no drama--and
   much less of an urge to wager--when the results have been announced
   hours earlier on ESPN or CNN. Still, there was some wagering. Here's a
   recap of payoffs on major events during the final week of the
   Olympics:
     * Everyone expected the USA's Dream Team to win the men's basketball
       gold medal; it was just a question of whether you could stand the
       price. The Americans opened 1-25 and quickly were bet up to 1-75,
       even 1-100 at some venues. The team's 95-69 victory (as 22-point
       favorites), over Yugoslavia in the title game was a formality.
       Yugoslavia, which captured the silver, was a 12-1 shot to win it
       all. Bronze medal winner Lithuania had opened at 15-1.
     * Not quite as sure a thing as their male counterparts, America's
       women took the basketball gold at 2-5, beating 12-1 Brazil. The
       USA, an 11-point favorite over Brazil in the finale, comfortably
       covered, 111-87. The victory was Team USA's 60th straight triumph.
     * Nigeria, a 10-1 outsider, upset 5-2 Argentina to win the gold in
       men's soccer. Brazil, 2-1, took the bronze. Nigeria (+200), beat
       Argentina (-200) by a score of 3-2 in the title game.
     * The United States, the 3-5 favorite, beat China, 8-1, for the gold
       medal in women's soccer. Norway, 2-1, took the bronze. The
       Americans (-400), edged the Chinese (+300), by a score of 2-1 in
       the championship game.
     * Italy was the 8-5 favorite but the Netherlands, the second choice
       at 3-1, beat the Italians in a dramatic five set match to claim
       the men's volleyball championship. Yugoslavia, 25-1, finished
       third.
     * Favored Cuba won its second straight Olympic championship in
       women's volleyball with a four set victory over China. The Cubans
       were 2-1 entering the Olympics; China was 5-1. Brazil, 3-1,
       finished third.
     * Cuba, the 4-5 favorite, won the gold medal in men's baseball 6-1
       over Japan. The USA, the even money second choice, grabbed the
       bronze. Cuba (-300), beat Japan (+220), 13-9, in the title game
       while the USA (-450), clobbered Nicaragua (+325), 10-3, in the
       consolation game.
     * Unheralded Josiah Thugwane of South Africa, who was not among the
       14 runners listed with odds next to their names, won the men's
       marathon as a member of the field, at 3-1. Korea's Lee Bong-Ju,
       8-1, got second with Kenya's Eric Wainaina third at 20-1.
     * Noureddine Morceli's victory in the men's 1,500 meters,
       representing Algeria, didn't come as a surprise. Morceli was the
       1-3 favorite. Fermin Cacho of Spain took second at 10-1 with
       Stephen Kipkorir of Kenya third at 8-1. Even money favorite Allen
       Johnson of the United States won the 110 meter hurdles. Teammate
       Mark Crear, 5-2, was second with Germany's Florian Schwarthoff,
       5-1 as a member of the field, third. America's Charles Austin, the
       5-2 favorite, leaped to victory in the men's high jump. Poland's
       Artur Partyka, 4-1, took the silver with Britain's Steve Smith,
       20-1, settling for the bronze.
     * It hasn't been the greatest of years for Andre Agassi, but with a
       gold medal in men's tennis--not to mention Brooke Shields as his
       girlfriend--things suddenly got a lot brighter. Agassi, the -450
       favorite who represented the United States, easily beat Spain's
       Sergi Bruguera, +325, in straight sets. America's Lindsay
       Davenport (+180), upset Spain's Arancha Sanchez Vicario (-220), in
       straight sets to take the gold medal in women's tennis.

    > but when NBC wastes hours on beach
    >      volleyball, mountain biking and synchronized swimming 
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    Why are you inlcuding this with a trash sport and a Follies event. 
    Granted the last minute decision NOT to go with the bears and mountain
    lion (the only one NBC lost) lost some of the charm but it was still
    pretty interesting.  I think you meant rythmic gymnastics.

I was wondering why Agassi was so high a favorite until I remember he was
the hometown favorite......

  Actually, the Men's beach volley ball gold medal match was pretty good. It
was two U.S. teams and the team that eventually won got to match point 4 times
but the other team kept getting the serve back and kept creeping up a point at
a time. They almost tied it up but the team that was the favorite won match
point on the 5th try.

  That was one of the better segments during the two weeks.

  George

Mean's beach ball sucks imo. Course with it's wham bam thank you mam style, I
could see where it would go over big with some. The women's beach volleyball
is where it's at atleast there's a little foreplay before the kill.........

mike

  Sort of reminds you of basketball.

  George

  >> Actually, the Men's beach volley ball gold medal match was pretty 
  >> good. It was two U.S. teams and the team that eventually won got to 
  >> match point 4 times but the other team kept getting the serve back 
  >> and kept creeping up a point at a time. They almost tied it up but 
  >> the team that was the favorite won match point on the 5th try.

  >> That was one of the better segments during the two weeks.

     To each his own. I thought it sucked. It looks like the game was 
     made up to give guys like Karaly and Dunn something to do besides 
     grow up and get a real job. Those guys are all nearing 40. Move on,
     dude. The semifinal match with the Portuguese threatening to knock
     off the heavily favored Americans was mildly interesting but the
     final was over real early. The two Mikes managed to stave off the 
     inevitable for a very short while but it didn't make for any sus-
     pense. They were beaten badly and it was written all over their 
     faces. It certianly wasn't on the order of Kerri Strug's vault
     or either of Michael Johnson's track victories or the women's
     softball gold medal game or...
     
    

    > but when NBC wastes hours on beach
    >      volleyball, mountain biking and synchronized swimming 
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    >>Why are you inlcuding this with a trash sport and a Follies event. 

      As a sport to participate in, it's one of the best and I don't for a 
      minute denigrate all that must take to be the best at it. But the only 
      reason that it was in the Olympics and on tv is it's commercial appeal. 
      Mountain bikes are a multi-billion dollar industry and there were tens 
      of millions of American's who own  mountain bike and who have excellent 
      marketing demographics watching the Olympics. For a lot of them I bet 
      the race was great. But for me, it was about the last thing I wanted to 
      watch during the Olympics. What's next? Inline skating? Maybe that's 
      what will happen. New events will replace some of the ones we've always 
      known. Back in the old days the broad jump was an event. Maybe event-
      ually some current Olympic events will go the way of the broad jump. If 
      that's the case sobeit but give us something else in their place but
      not of mountain biking.

   >> I think you meant rythmic gymnastics.

      I think it's great those women can be so serious while looking so 
      stupid.
    

RE        <<< Note 140.381 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     To each his own. I thought it sucked. It looks like the game was 
>     made up to give guys like Karaly and Dunn something to do besides 
>     grow up and get a real job. 

  Throw in the phrase "and for the entertainment of an audience" and that can
be said about all professional and world class amateur sport as well as all
theater, movies, TV and any other form of entertainment. Sure, what else is
new?

>Those guys are all nearing 40. Move on,
>     dude. 

  That's because the sport is young. If it catches on and matures I'm sure
the quality of the players will increase.

>The two Mikes managed to stave off the 
>     inevitable for a very short while but it didn't make for any sus-
>     pense. They were beaten badly and it was written all over their 
>     faces. It certianly wasn't on the order of Kerri Strug's vault
>     or either of Michael Johnson's track victories or the women's
>     softball gold medal game or...
     
  Whoooo, what Olympics were you watching. In Michael Johnson's track victories
his competition "didn't make for any suspense" either, he gave the field as
much of a trouncing as the dream team. As for Kerri Strug's vault, while it
certainly was heroic and will no doubt turn her into a millionaire they had
enough points that they would have won anyway. 

  George

  >> In Michael Johnson's track victories his competition "didn't make for 
  >> any suspense" either, 

     No, but they were two of the "better segments dring the two weeks."
     The beach volleynall final which was a blowout in a trash sport was 
     not even in the same league.
    
    

    
    >> As for Kerri Strug's vault, while it certainly was heroic and will 
    >> no doubt turn her into a millionaire they had enough points that they 
    >> would have won anyway. 
    
       How do you figure that? The US won the team comp by less than a
       point. If she doesn't suck it up and go, they don't win.

>       How do you figure that? The US won the team comp by less than a
>       point. If she doesn't suck it up and go, they don't win.

Strug scored a 9.16-something on her first vault.  Hindsight being 20/20, that
would have been enough to win.

But at that point, there were still two Russians that had to do their
floor exercises (vault goes quicker), and the gymnasts don't immediately
know what the other gymnasts did.  (Additionally, they probably can't do
all the tallies in their head.)

So Strug had no way of being sure that the win was sealed, and she had 30
seconds to decide whether to vault.

    
    
       The way I heard it was that Dominique Mocineau 2 vaults(the ones she
    fell on) were both high enough to get the gold for the US. But they did
    not know that until after. They said that Kerri needed that 9.6* to
    guarantee gold even with the Ruskies getting perfect 10's.
    
    
    
    Chap

  That's the way I heard it as well. They already had the points but didn't
know that the Russians would have come up short anyway. As it was it was still
close but they won by a more comfortable margin. 

  With Michael Johnson there was no contest. The two Mikes were a lot closer
to winning that last set than any of Johnson's competitors were in either
event.

  George

    >> The two Mikes were a lot closer to winning that last set than 
    >> any of Johnson's competitors were in either event.
    
       No, they weren't. If you watched it as I did you know that it
       was never ever in doubt as to who would win. 12-5 and 12-8 equals
       blowout.

  What I remember was that they quickly got to 11-something then they failed at
match point 4 times in a row. The announcers mentioned that the last time these
two teams had met in an important match the same thing had happened except that
the two Mikes came back to tie it up.

  Anyway, what point are you trying to make?

  If you are saying one sided events are not worth watching then Beach Volley
ball, the 200, men's basketball and the 400 were one sided events.

  If you are saying dramatic trouncings are worth watching just to see someone
with great talent dominate a field, then that's what we saw in those 4 events.

  George

Once again, it has been demonstrated that these Olympics weren't worth
watching.

    
    
      Most boring event  = Stupid horses jumping over equestrians!!
    
    
    
    
    If I can't bet on or against a horse. I don't wanna watch it!!!
    
    
    Chap

>    If I can't bet on or against a horse. I don't wanna watch it!!!

Like it _Let it Ride_ where Teri Garr asks Richard Dreyfuss why they
caint just sit and watch the horses race without betting on 'em.

Dreyfuss reponds: "Without betting, there is no racing".

TTom

>      Most boring event  = Stupid horses jumping over equestrians!!

Actually, if it were horses jumping over equestrians, I'd watch.  'Cause
what if the horse trips as he jumps?  The only thing left that would be
recognizable would be the riding boots.

Come to think of it, this would attract the NASCAR crowd.  TTom would consider
the Olympics more worthy.

>      Most boring event  = Stupid horses jumping over equestrians!!

  Wasn't this what eventually killed Catherine the Great? At lest that's the
rumor I heard. Then there is a more nasty rumor as to why she had her horse
jumping over her but considering the emotions against the Russians over the
last couple centuries I'm inclined to take both rumors with a grain of salt.

  In any event, I agree, watching horses jump equestrians would be something
else. Sort of like the proverbial car wreck where it's almost impossible to
turn away.

  George

re: NASCAR and Olympics

Having a NASCAR race as part of the Olympics makes as much sense as a lot
of these events. Considering there's Beach Volley Ball, which Atlanta
don't have, a car race event at the local NASCAR track would be much more
appropriate.

I too woulda like to see the horses jump the equestrians. I've also
considered the fate of ol' Catherine the Great, although my sources claim
it was a mule or at least resembled one, partly.

TTom

    
    >> Anyway, what point are you trying to make?
      
       That I don't understand how you can call the beach vb final
       one of the better segments of the two weeks but I guess that
       stuff is purely subjective.

    >> If you are saying one sided events are not worth watching then 
    >> Beach Volley ball, the 200, men's basketball and the 400 were one 
    >> sided events.

       In track and field there may be a disparity in ability between 
       contestants but you may get to see someone run a phenomenal
       race and see a world record broken. Johnson's races weren't close
       but they were electrifyfing. He was essentially competing for
       posterity. In basketball and trash sports like beach volleyball 
       if it's lopsided all you get is a boring game which is what the 
       beach volleyball final and the DT games were - boring.
       
    
    

  What I like about the Olympics is getting to see a wide variety of different
types of events. Sure if you just watched track and gymnastics you would see
the most sophisticated national programs and that's good but seeing the odd
ball stuff is part of the fun of the Olympics. 

  In fact I wish St Maritz (sp?) would get the Winter Olympics again. When ever
they have it there they run some crazy sort of sled down the Luge run where the
competitors go down frontwards steering by dragging their toes in the snow. Now
that would be worth the price of a ticket. 

  As for one sided events, I personally don't think it's important. To me the
Olympics is all about nations demonstrating that they can send teams to do
something peaceful and it's about athletes demonstrating that if you have a
wide variety of sports it becomes obvious that there is no such thing as a
superior race, religion, or country. Any type of person can end up on the top
of the podium wearing a gold medal because all types of people are equal.

  It's nice for your country to win and it's nice to have a good contest but
it's not necessary for it to be a good Olympic event. What's important is that
everyone gets to participate. In that respect Eddie the Eagle was as fine an
Olympic athlete as any.

  George

>trash sports like beach volleyball

I'm still trying to figure out how beach volleyball counts as a "trash
sport".

Earlier on (.381) you said the following:

>     It looks like the game was 
>     made up to give guys like Karaly and Dunn something to do besides 
>     grow up and get a real job. Those guys are all nearing 40.

True, Mike Dodd is 38, and I believe Kiraly is 35(?).  But older guys being
able to play the sport doesn't make it worthless.  Kiraly is a truly gifted
player - one of the greatest of all time *indoors* (multiple NCAA championships,
Olympic medals, etc.) as well as outdoors.  If he were in a sport you liked,
we'd be hearing about his triumph over age and how amazing it was that he could
still compete at such a high level.  Same for Dodd, although he's not as
dominant as Kiraly, and his defensive brilliance doesn't stand out as much.

The typical AVP player is in his late twenties.  This sounds very much like
the typical MLB player and NBA player to me.

  >> I'm still trying to figure out how beach volleyball counts 
  >> as a "trash sport".

     Any sport with "beach" in its name is immediately suspect. Add 
     in that it is a mutation of another sport and is dominated by 
     athletes no longer good enough to play that other sport and
     that spells trash and that begins with 't' and that rhymes with
     'g' and that stands for garbage.

  >> If he were in a sport you liked, we'd be hearing about his triumph 
  >> over age and how amazing it was that he could still compete at such 
  >> a high level.  Same for Dodd, although he's not as dominant as Kiraly, 
  >> and his defensive brilliance doesn't stand out as much.

     If he could compete in a real sport at his age I'd applaud him. What
     he's doing now he's doing to prolong a career that really should be 
     over but he's getting paid so more power to him. But don't for a moment
     equate his accomplishments with what Joyner-Kersee. Carl Lewis, or Al 
     Oerter managed against *real* world class competition not a bunch of 
     has-beens in sports that weren't tailor-made for them. Take your pink 
     hat and go home, Karch. You've stayed at the party too long.
    

>    Any sport with "beach" in its name is immediately suspect.

Arbitrary rule #1...

>    Add in that it is a mutation of another sport

OK, that gets rid of baseball as a valid sport, too.  Probably a few others.

>and is dominated by 
>athletes no longer good enough to play that other sport

Really?  Which ones are you referring to?  Kiraly?  He's still at the top of
his game.

Center Linebacker "Dunn"?

>But don't for a moment
>     equate his accomplishments with what Joyner-Kersee. Carl Lewis, or Al 
>     Oerter managed against *real* world class competition
 
I didn't.

>Take your pink hat and go home, Karch.

I have to admit that I'm with you on the pink hat thing...

  Ummm let's see, sports that came from other sports.

  - Cricket and Baseball came from Rounders.

  - Basketball was something invented by a coach at Springfield College to keep
    his football players in shape and occupied during New England winters. 

  - Football is an imitation of a game where people of two towns would try
    to roll some giant ball into the other team's town square.

  - Skiing is a sport made out of someone else's mode of transportation.

  - Tennis, Squash, Handball, Badminton, Racquetball, what do you bet they are
    all imitations of some game that came earlier.

  In fact I understand that when basketball started not only was it a joke
watching these lumbering football players run around but they didn't think to
cut the bottom out of the basket so they had to keep a step ladder near the
hoop to go retrieve the ball when ever anyone scored.

  They all started somewhere and they were all ragged when they began. I like
to give'em a chance and see what each sport has to offer.

  George

    
      I ain't buying, Roland. Can you picture the "beach hammer throw"?
     Of course not. Beach volleyball is trash and it's an Olympic sport 
     for the same reason that Baywatch is the number one tv program in 
     the world. Both are cotton candy for the eye and have little or no
     substance. All four final bvb teams were made up of washed up volley-
     ballers hanging on to their glory days. Those guys don't deserve the 
     same gold medals that real athletes like Carl Lewis and Michael Johnson
     earned. It's a joke.

  The substance is that people from different nations are participating in
competition in a demonstration that we are all equal and we can all live in
peace.

  If a beach hammer throw would accomplish that then it would be just as
substantial as an event with a century of sophistication.

  George

>in a demonstration that we are all equal

Uh, I thought that was what competition was all about, namely, that we
are not all equal.

FWIW, I'm with Tommy: Beach Volley Ball is a trash sport. Now if'n it
helps out the touchy-feely libs, then more power to 'em. But it don't
change the fack that it's a trash sport.

TTom

>Can you picture the "beach hammer throw"?

No, but I can picture the beach 100 yd. dash.

Personally, I don't think beach volleyball is necessary as an Olympic
sport, but I also don't think it warrants the bashing that you're giving it.
You've offered *nothing* to back this statement up:

>All four final bvb teams were made up of washed up volley-
>     ballers hanging on to their glory days.

Kiraly could *definitely* step right back into the USA volleyball team
right now, and would probably be "The Man".  Whitmarsh and Steffes, I don't
know - Whitmarsh would be the better bet.  Dodd *is* getting too old, although
he might make the team as a defensive specialist.  I can't comment on the
guys from other countries - haven't seen them.

I'll leave it to Brews to further discuss the merits of the players - he's
far more qualified than I am.

>FWIW, I'm with Tommy: Beach Volley Ball is a trash sport. 

Good news for you, Tommy!  Mr. NASCAR thinks beach volleyball is a 
trash sport.  You can't argue with that kind of trash sport expertise...

    
> The substance is that people from different nations are participating in
> competition in a demonstration that we are all equal and we can all live in
> peace.
>
> If a beach hammer throw would accomplish that then it would be just as
> substantial as an event with a century of sophistication.
    
    If only there were more beach hammer throwers among us, the world
    would be a better place...
    
    Extending this logic there is no need for the events at all, merely
    "demonstrations" of peace and love.  But of course it doesn't work
    that way because for there to be an Olympics, there must be interest
    in the events.  And when it comes to worldwide interest, clearly all
    events are _not_ created equal (which has been your defense of NBC's 
    lame coverage all along). 
    
    Speaking of peace and love, how 'bout those brawling Cuban women
    from the volleyball and soccer teams?  What were they demonstrating?
                                                                        
    glenn
    

I'm hardly a_expert on such things. When it comes to some of the trash,
I'll defer to some of the other noters who are into things like MLB and
such.

TTom

    
    
    
      Can't we all just get along??

Hey, I was tossed the firsted slur of the day. 

OK, MLB is OK if'n you like that kinda thing. As a sport, I'd rate it
ahead of Beach Volley Ball.

RE        <<< Note 140.405 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Uh, I thought that was what competition was all about, namely, that we
>are not all equal.

  No, the fact that people of all races, religions, nationalities and other
classifications win different events shows that these groups are all equal.
It's the individuals across groups that win competitions.

  That was most dramatically demonstrated when Jesse Owens won the gold medals
at the '36 Olympics in Berlin which Hitler had hoped to use to showcase his
theories about a superior arian race. 

  To me peace and equality are what the Olympics is all about. If that makes me
a touchy-feely lib, then so be it. 

  George

    
    
    
    Yup

I don't see any eqaulity here.

Firsted of all, there's no equality in the competition itself. If'n you
try out for the Luxemberg Beach Volley Ball team, you'll prolly make it.
In the good ol' U.S. of A, there's all manner of tourneys. Where's the
equality.

Then you get there and you get your arse handed to you. Where's the
equality.

Then, in another event, you get one gold medal, say in swimming, and
another person gets four. Where's the equality.

As for Hitler, Jesse showed that them Krauts weren't his equal.

TTom

RE      <<< Note 140.408 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    Extending this logic there is no need for the events at all, merely
>    "demonstrations" of peace and love.  But of course it doesn't work
>    that way because for there to be an Olympics, there must be interest
>    in the events.

  There has always been interest in the Olympics that goes beyond interest in
the events. How many Olympic events draw the kind of attention outside the
Olympics that they draw during the Olympics?

  At any rate, if you are arguing that the emphasis should be on drawing
interest then you are arguing more against Tommy's point of view than mine.
His point is that beach volleyball is covered because it is popular rather
than being a quality sport.

>    Speaking of peace and love, how 'bout those brawling Cuban women
>    from the volleyball and soccer teams?  What were they demonstrating?
                                                                        
  What it demonstrates is that even though individuals and some groups of
individuals on a small level have problems, the Olympics and what it stands
for goes on. Better they should be playing a game and arguing over the outcome
then going to war. In the end it was resolved peacefully.

  George

    
  >> Kiraly could *definitely* step right back into the USA volleyball team
  >> right now, and would probably be "The Man".  
    
     He might make the team but he wouldn't be 'The Man' even though our 
     volleyball team stinks.
    
  >> I can't comment on the guys from other countries - haven't seen them.

     Well, I guess I watched more of it than you then. The Portuguese team
     that pushed Dodd and Whitmarsh was made up of two former members of
     the national volleyball team (see a pattern here?). They were enter-
     taining mainly because one guy was 5'10" and quite the digger/setter.
     From an athletic standpoint though, these guys take a big back seat
     to real volleyballers.
     
     BTW - Dodd's constant attempts to pump the crowd in the Portuguese
           match was one of the lowlights, imo, of the entire games.

RE        <<< Note 140.415 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Firsted of all, there's no equality in the competition itself. If'n you
>try out for the Luxemberg Beach Volley Ball team, you'll prolly make it.
>In the good ol' U.S. of A, there's all manner of tourneys. Where's the
>equality.
>
>Then you get there and you get your arse handed to you. Where's the
>equality.

  Taken together they show equality. Sure it might be easier to make a team
where there is less competition but eventually you meet the world class
competitors and they could come from anywhere.

>Then, in another event, you get one gold medal, say in swimming, and
>another person gets four. Where's the equality.

  That one person that wins 4 gold medals can just as easily come from any
race, religion, or nationality. That shows the equality.

>As for Hitler, Jesse showed that [white supremest who happened to live in
>Germany but are prevelent everywhere] weren't his equal.

  Yes, that's the point. Individuals in any group can win. That's the equality.

  George

What you're defining is equality in potential.

I don't argue the point that when a child is born, they have sorta
a_equal chance to get to the Olympics and/or win a medal. Massive poverty
and other cultural/societal issues notwithstanding.

However, by the time you're considering the Olympics, that potential has
turned into totally unequal talent.

Proof that compititors are not equal: Somebody gets the gold, silver and
bronze medals and the rest get to go home without one.

TTom

    >> That one person that wins 4 gold medals can just as easily come 
    >> from any race, religion, or nationality. That shows the equality.
    
       The last white 100 meter winner that I remember in a fully attended
       Olympics was Valery Borzov in '72 and he was probably juicin'. I 
       don't remember any black swimming gold medalists or Japanese heavy-
       weight boxing champions. It might make George Maiewski feel good
       to believe that we're all the same but I don't believe it. We're
       all different and you don't get any better illsutration of it than
       at the Olympics. We should revel in our uniqueness not pretend we're
       one homogenous bunch.

>     From an athletic standpoint though, these guys take a big back seat
>     to real volleyballers.

I won't argue this with you.  I'll just ask you to play in a competition
in both and tell me what you think. 

RE        <<< Note 140.419 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>What you're defining is equality in potential.

  No, I'm not talking about equality among individuals. I'm talking about
equality among races, nationalities, and other groups.

>Proof that competitors are not equal: Somebody gets the gold, silver and
>bronze medals and the rest get to go home without one.

  But that is just as likely to be someone of a different race, nationality
or other group.

  Hitler was not saying that his runner was better than Jesse Owens. He was
saying that all Ariens are superior to minorities. Owens demonstrated that his
theory was nuts and the fact that both Arians and non Arians won demonstrated
that Hitler was wrong, the groups are equal. It's the individuals across
groups that are different.

  George

>He was
>saying that all Ariens are superior to minorities.

Since when are lawnmowers and snowblowers superior to minorities?

RE        <<< Note 140.420 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>       The last white 100 meter winner that I remember in a fully attended
>       Olympics was Valery Borzov in '72 and he was probably juicin'. I 
>       don't remember any black swimming gold medalists or Japanese heavy-
>       weight boxing champions. 

  And that's the point of why the Olympics has a large collection of events
rather than just being a track and field meet. Taken together the events show
that groups are equal. Sure one group may do better in one sport because of
national or ethnic interest in that particular sport but when you go with a
larger sample size, collectively the Olympics show that these things even out
and the various groups are equal.

  That's why what you call "trash" sports are just as important as that small
group that you personally prefer. Sure your group can win in your event but
try winning the next one. Suddenly you find that taken in the larger context
your group is no better than anyone else's.

>It might make George Maiewski feel good
>       to believe that we're all the same but I don't believe it. We're
>       all different and you don't get any better illsutration of it than
>       at the Olympics. We should revel in our uniqueness not pretend we're
>       one homogenous bunch.

  Uniqueness as individuals yes. Superiority as races or nationalities, no.

  George

    
    $ set message sys$message:olympics.exe
    $ write f$message(%xA357F311)
    SYSTEM-F-BRAINABORT, Brain has aborted during yes-no-yes-no "talk"
    
    

The Olympics, and most of the other sports, are based upon a premise that
there is a construct during which inequality is demonstrated. 

Sports produce a guy called the winner and a bunch of others who may have
a secondary title but leave being not the winner.

What distinguishes sports from some things is this winner-loser thing.

TTom

Now I'd watch that.

Hey, I don't mean to diss nobody about this "trash sport" designation.
I'm open to some other word to describe these types of events.

I caught some of the X-treme games which might be given a similar term.
Din't mean that I din't admire and respect the competitors.

It's just that they don't seem on any Olympic level.

TTom

  >> That's why what you call "trash" sports are just as important as 
  >> that small group that you personally prefer. Sure your group can 
  >> win in your event but try winning the next one.  Suddenly you find 
  >> that taken in the larger context your group is no better than anyone 
  >> else's.

     The men's beach volleyball final consisted of two American teams.
     You're saying that they installed beach volleyball as an Olympic
     sport so that we Americans can prove we're equal? I don't think
     so. Sports become Olympic sports because of a general interest in 
     them not for any lofty ideals such as promoting equality. We won
     over a hundred medals at this year's Olympics. Thailand just won 
     their first gold ever. Other countries didn't win any. I guess I'm
     missing the equality message in that.
    

> Sure one group may do better in one sport because of
> national or ethnic interest in that particular sport but when you go with a
> larger sample size, collectively the Olympics show that these things even out
> and the various groups are equal.
    
    I suppose that you can come up with any generalization that fits your
    premise, but you could just as easily look at the Olympic results and
    come to conclusions like the USA is a superior athletic country (to 
    most), while say, India has serious serious problems in athletics.  
    Not sure where the "evening out" comes in.
    
    None of which has anything to do with whether a sport is legit, 
    of course.  There we're talking about a purely subjective, aesthetic
    thing independent of the makeup of its competitors.  By all
    appearances, beach volleyball is a good-for-TV game that greatly
    favors American competitors anyway.
    
    glenn
    

RE        <<< Note 140.426 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>Sports produce a guy called the winner and a bunch of others who may have
>a secondary title but leave being not the winner.

  Tom, no one is arguing against this point. If you are saying that sports
show that individuals are not equal in a given event then yes, no one disputes
that. You are having a one man argument.

  I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about how collectively the large
group of sports making up the Olympics show that being a member of a race,
religion, nationality, or ethnic group gives you no advantage.

  That's why it's important to have many events and not turn the Olympics into
a track and field meet on the basis of track and field being more sophisticated.

  George

>group of sports making up the Olympics show that being a member of a race,
>religion, nationality, or ethnic group gives you no advantage.
 
Except when you look at the results.

I'll skip the race and card and plead ignorant on religion (who was Catholic,
protestant, etc.)

However looking at nationalities, results indicate a true diversity of
talent from some nations being very good to some nations being very bad.

As for ethnic equality, I don't know of a single West By Gawd Virginian
who won a gold medal so that seems unlikely too.

TTom

> I'm talking about something else. I'm talking about how collectively the large
> group of sports making up the Olympics show that being a member of a race,
> religion, nationality, or ethnic group gives you no advantage.
>
> That's why it's important to have many events and not turn the Olympics into
> a track and field meet on the basis of track and field being more sophisticated.
    
    Not only would I dispute that, but I'd go one further and posit that 
    the so-called "TV trash sports" (beach volleyball, mountain biking, 
    ballroom dancing et al) are too specialized to pass the "equality"
    test and greatly favor Western nations including the US.
    
    glenn
     

Seems like the Swedes got a_unfair advantage over say Fiji in the winter
skiing events, too...

RE        <<< Note 140.429 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     The men's beach volleyball final consisted of two American teams.
>     You're saying that they installed beach volleyball as an Olympic
>     sport so that we Americans can prove we're equal? 

  I've been saying all along that no one sport like the 200 or men's beach
volleyball proves anything. Taken collectively the many sports show that we are
equal. Taken as a single event, the 200, beach volleyball, or any other single
sport prove very little. That's why it's good to have lots of events in the
Olympics. 

>I don't think
>     so. Sports become Olympic sports because of a general interest in 
>     them not for any lofty ideals such as promoting equality. We won
>     over a hundred medals at this year's Olympics. Thailand just won 
>     their first gold ever. Other countries didn't win any. I guess I'm
>     missing the equality message in that.
    
  Some countries try harder than others and have better programs than others,
some are larger than others. When you start factoring in things like the number
of medals per capita, number of medals per dollar invested in training and all
the other types of things this all starts to even out as Olympics are played
from year to year.

  Thailand does not come up short of medals because the Thai people as a
group are inferior to some other group. When you factor in the effort and
opportunity that one medal means a lot more than a single medal won by a
large nation that invests a lot in their program.

  And just to head off another rathole before it starts, notice I said nation,
not government. As a nation American's put a lot of resources into building
their Olympic team than other smaller 3rd world nations.

  George

>  Some countries try harder than others and have better programs than others,

I agree with this definition of "equal".

>>  Some countries try harder than others and have better programs than others,
>
> I agree with this definition of "equal".
    
    Me too.  So is beach volleyball trash sport or isn't it?  ;-)
    
    
    glenn
    

RE      <<< Note 140.430 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    I suppose that you can come up with any generalization that fits your
>    premise, but you could just as easily look at the Olympic results and
>    come to conclusions like the USA is a superior athletic country (to 
>    most), while say, India has serious serious problems in athletics.  
>    Not sure where the "evening out" comes in.

  Factor in the effort put into building the American team and the effort put
in to building the Indian team and it evens out. You can say the American
program is better than the Indian program but it does not show that being an
Indian makes you inferior to Americans. Quite the contrary, the fact that
Indians are able to do as well as they do without the backing American's get
from our college athletic program shows that they are equal.
    
>    None of which has anything to do with whether a sport is legit, 
>    of course.  There we're talking about a purely subjective, aesthetic
>    thing independent of the makeup of its competitors.  

  Exactly. One man's favorite game is another man's trash sport.

  George

>    Me too.  So is beach volleyball trash sport or isn't it?  ;-)

Were may not know much about a trash sport but we know it when we see
one.

RE      <<< Note 140.434 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    Not only would I dispute that, but I'd go one further and posit that 
>    the so-called "TV trash sports" (beach volleyball, mountain biking, 
>    ballroom dancing et al) are too specialized to pass the "equality"
>    test and greatly favor Western nations including the US.
    
  Yes, and other sports prove that other groups can be effective. Taken
collectively the more different types of sports you have the more you show
that talent can be found in many diverse groups.

  George

>that talent can be found in many diverse groups.

Ah, we've got a new target now. I guess "equal" got losted somewhere.

  >> When you start factoring in things like the number of medals per 
  >> capita, number of medals per dollar invested in training and all
  >> the other types of things this all starts to even out as Olympics 
  >> are played from year to year.

     There's no algorithm that can make 0 = 109. Give it up, George. 
     The Olympics were never about equality and never will be although
     you're making a pretty convincing argument for them being about
     inequality.

    

        <<< Note 140.443 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>>that talent can be found in many diverse groups.
>Ah, we've got a new target now. I guess "equal" got losted somewhere.

  Tom, you are not coming close to discussing what I'm talking about. Every
argument you give has little to do with what I said previously. In fact I agree
with most of what you say, it's just a different topic than the one I'm
arguing. 

  Yes, talent can be found in many diverse groups. The Olympics shows that
people of different groups are equal. To me that's saying the same thing.

  Hitler wanted to use the Berlin Olympics to show that the Arian race was
superior. It didn't work. He didn't show it to be inferior but he didn't show
it to be superior either. What the events showed collectively was that Hitler
was wrong. The groups are equal and it's the individuals across groups who
are different.

  George

>The Olympics shows that
>people of different groups are equal

You've said that afore and have yet to come close to proving it.

Just so we're in the same argument, I'm saying that the Olympics show
that people of different groups are not equal. I offer the results of the
events either collectively or individually as evidence.

Further I think that the Olympics further demonstrates that people of the
same group are not equal and offer the same evidence.

TTom

RE        <<< Note 140.444 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     There's no algorithm that can make 0 = 109. Give it up, George. 
>     The Olympics were never about equality and never will be although
>     you're making a pretty convincing argument for them being about
>     inequality.

  Zero doesn't have to equal 109. The problem is that you are so obsessed
with winning and your thinking is so one dimensional that you can't see the
bigger picture. 

  If you have one nation that pours millions of dollars into training athletes
through various College programs and another that does not and if the nation
that spends the bucks wins tons of medals and the one that does not wins only
a few, that can be factored in with little effort.

  Placing well with a small population that has little training is every bit
as impressive as winning 109 medals with a large well trained population.

  George

    I think Hitler's Aryans would have held a distinct advantage in
    the ballroom dancing competition, had it been an event in 1936.  
    I mean, in all the old war flicks, that's all those Nazis did 
    after dark was get drunk and ballroom dance.  Good thing that the 
    Olympic powers of the day didn't cater to the National Broadcasting
    Company like they do now.
    
    glenn
    

re: Hitler and ball room dancing.

Ever see _The Producers_? Kenneth Mars plays a guy who write a play
called _Springtime For Hitler_.

He tires to make the case that Hitler was a lot better'n Churchill and
at one point says "and he could dance the pants off Churchill".

RE      <<< Note 140.448 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    I think Hitler's Aryans would have held a distinct advantage in
>    the ballroom dancing competition, had it been an event in 1936.  

  Exactly. If anyone were to be able to declare some small group of sports
as the elite sophisticated sports and get others run off as trash sports then
the Olympics could be manipulated for exactly this purpose.

  That's why it is important to allow a wide variety of sports and put the
emphasis on participation and accomplishment for your level of skill and
training rather than being obsessed with medal counts and performance in
only the politically correct sports.

  George

  >> Placing well with a small population that has little training is 
  >> every bit as impressive as winning 109 medals with a large well 
  >> trained population.

     And not even coming close in anything at all isn't impressive at 
     all but it happens to a lot of countries and it's no reflection 
     whatsoever on their equality or their commitment. There is no 
     message of equality. They hold the games to prove who is best not 
     who is the same and they always have.

    

RE        <<< Note 140.451 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>There is no 
>     message of equality. They hold the games to prove who is best not 
>     who is the same and they always have.

  A medal never proves who's the best, it only proves who did better.

  In any case it's not clear why you made this statement. This debate is not
about who is best on an individual basis.

  George

small nit, Tommy.

>... They hold the games to prove who is best ...

And then there's the theory that the guy who wins aint the bestest but
I'm pretty sure that's not the argument du jour.

    I still find it somewhat astonishing that India, a country of 
    900 million people, collected their first medal (just one) since 
    the Soviet boycott.  That's even with all this diversity of sport 
    nonsense (which is what it is; these sports are added for their
    ability to generate interest, and money, in ticket sales and 
    broadcast rights, not for any altruistic sporting purposes).  
    There's no "message" there, on equality or otherwise, but the
    Olympics are most definitely not "evening out" for some not-so-small 
    nations.
    
    glenn
    

Now in at least one venue these Olympics were more of a level field than
some previous.

Notice that since they started drug testing all swimmers, the Chinese
women are much less formidable...

RE      <<< Note 140.454 by EDWIN::WAUGAMAN "Hardball, good ol' country" >>>

>    I still find it somewhat astonishing that India, a country of 
>    900 million people, collected their first medal (just one) since 
>    the Soviet boycott.  

  But what kind of opportunity and training do they have for the typical one of
those 900 million people? 

  In the United States just about everyone has access to some sort of organized
program and anyone who shows Olympic talent will get pushed into a program at
a young age and will get the training they need. Is that the same in India?

  George

    
    Boy this is fun.  I think I'll just shoot holes into arguments,
    regardless of which side they are on 8^)
    
    USA has 250,000,000 people and 100+ medals
    China has 2,000,000,000+ people and less than that...
    
    
    China PAYS for their atheletes and gives them some of the best training
    in the world.  Could someone please explain that to this simple country
    boy who is just shuffling his feet to make his way in this world.
    
    Marc
    

>  But what kind of opportunity and training do they have for the typical one of
>those 900 million people? 

I thought they have a_equal opportunity, equal talent,  and put forth
a_equal effort. 

Unfortunately, the results differ, both for the individual as well as the 
team, but that's another story.

>    Boy this is fun.  

I heard 'at!~

>China PAYS for their atheletes and gives them some of the best training
>in the world.  

Once upon a time, after the great purges subsided, China decided that 
they wanted to play with ever one else. So they let Forest Gump go there 
and play ping pong, something they could actually do greater than equal.

Then a most fortuitive event occured: East Germany and most of Eastern 
Europe went through some serious changes so the blood dopers and steroid
synthesizers moved to China.

This was followed by much achievement and grand rejoicing at the national 
level. The US, being the land of the equal and home of the same, put the 
fix in to increase the testing and the nexted thing you know all that 
money and all that bestest training made 'em average.

Keep on shufflin'

TTom

    Wow!  Miss a day in here and you sure miss a lot!!!  It seems obvious
    to me from reading all these replies that the best thing the Olympic
    movement could do to make things more equal for all equal people is to
    add more sports for people from those equal countries who do not have
    the interest or enthusiasm for current Olympic sports.
    
    For example, cow dodging would appeal to the Indians, marathon
    cigarette smoking to the Chinese, and I'm sure there are several others
    that could be incorporated into the Australian games so that countires
    who did poorly in the medal count this year can gain a sense of pride
    in their unique abilities.
    
    NAZZ

>    For example, cow dodging would appeal to the Indians, marathon
>    cigarette smoking to the Chinese,

I don't know - I bet there are some N. Carolina tobacco farmers that
could give the Chinese a run for their money...

I think you're on[to] something there, Nazz.

How about this: ever country gets to have one event, whatever they want.
It'd be kinda like poker where the dealer calls the game.

TTom

>There is no 
>     message of equality. They hold the games to prove who is best not 
>     who is the same and they always have.

  >> A medal never proves who's the best, it only proves who did better.

  >> In any case it's not clear why you made this statement. This debate is 
  >> not about who is best on an individual basis.

     It's your stated belief in .413 that " the fact that people of all 
     races, religions, nationalities and other classifications win different 
     events shows that these groups are all equal." I say you're all wet. 
     If you believe that the fact that you excel at a sport has anything
     to do with racial, ethnic or any other kind of equality then you're 
     as far off the beam as Hitler was. They are games just games. To win
     just means that you're better at that particular game it doesn't val-
     idate you as a human being. If you don't know that people are equal
     going in then you've got a problem that a few games won't fix.
    

    re:  Beach Volleyball == Trash Sport and has beens participating.
    
    Sorry to open this up again, but I had bugs up the Wahoo yesterday and 
    didn't get in at all yesterday.
    
    Anyway, I think I'm a little qualified to comment on the Volleyball
    discussion.  I on the board of directors for the New England Region of
    USAV (U.S.A. Volleyball).  USAV organizes the indoor national teams,
    and also organizes the sport at the regional level for schools,
    amateurs, and kids.  In addition to that, I'm a certified referee, and 
    organize and play on teams.  I've been playing "serious" volleyball for
    about a dozen years now.
    
    As far as doubles being easier then indoors 6's, that's just not true.
    If you have any doubts, get 10 friends together.  I'll bring my net and
    ball over, and we'll play both doubles and 6's.  There's absolutely no
    comparision.  The skill set necessary to play good doubles is far
    higher than in 6's.  In 6's, it's not uncommon that a player can only
    do one thing well.  Ie. Play in the front row, play defense, set, etc. 
    They are then subbed in and out.  In doubles, if you don't have all of
    the skills, you're wiped off the court.
    
    Playing doubles volleyball you have to cover a 10 meter by 10 meter 
    area with only two people.  Add to the fact that often times one of 
    those two people is blocking so you're down to one person, add the fact
    that you're in sand, and now you've got yourself a very difficult and
    taxing sport.  Again, if you doubt me, name the time and place, I've
    the net with me all of the time.  
    
    As far as the "used to be indoor players, now their outdoor", so
    they're washed up argument goes, that's hogwash too.
    
    Take a step back for a moment.  You've got a great body, and a lot of
    volleyball skills.  You can A) play and sweat inside for little money
    inside a dark gym, or B) play/practice at the beach for a lot of money
    with babes all around.  Which do you pick?
    
    There have also been a number of cases where the indoor folk have tried 
    to move outdoor, failed, and went back.  It simply takes more skill to
    play the outdoor game well.
    
    zamboni  aka (Tom Sweeney, Yankee At-Large Board Member, NERVA
    Secretary, USAV Referee, Captain of the Mad Dawgs.)
    
    ps.  For a quick plug.  If you're interested in the sport, check out
    the Yankee web page at http://www.ultranet.com/~yankee 

    TTom has a great idea!!!!!  The IOC can declare a core of seven or
    eight sports "Olympic Sports".  Then, each country in the Olympics has
    the right to sponsor one event of their choosing.
    
    I wonder what Carjackistan would sponsor?
    
    NAZZ

     re -1  
    
    		Uhhhh....maybe DEMOLITION DERBY?

     re. 463

     The reason why Kiraly manages to excel at beach volleyball 
    at his advanced age is not *just* because he's well rounded,
    it's because the sport plays directly to his strength. What 
    he's lost in spring and quickness he can more than make up 
    for in mental agility. He knows how to maneuver his opponents 
    when he's on offense and then take advantage. And he anticpates 
    their moves well on defense. He can't hang and bang with the 
    young studs anymore in indoor volleyball but if it comes down 
    to a match of wits he's got it all over them because he knows 
    how to position himself and his opponents. Much the ame could 
    be said of Larry Bird but I don't really care to see him pro-
    longing his career in a trash sport either.
    
    
    

  OK so if I understand you a trash sport is one which relies on wits more than
"spring and quickness" and in your opinion good sports are ones which rely on
the ability of "young studs" to "hang and bang".

  Was the U.S. Women's team made up of "young studs"? If so then I must have
the wrong impression of what a stud really is.

  George

>  Was the U.S. Women's team made up of "young studs"? If so then I must have
>the wrong impression of what a stud really is.

I agree, you have the wrong impression on what a stud really is.

I think you're in a transgender area here...

TTom

  Now let me get this straight. Are you saying I'm wrong and the Women's
Basketball team was made up of a bunch of young studs who can hang and bang?

  I really need to do some research on this stud business.

  Things sure have changed from back in the 70's.

  George

any attempt to apply the word stud to any women is wrong.

  That's what I thought.

  But recently I've heard that the difference between trash sports like beach
volley ball and real sports like regular volley ball and basketball is that the
latter is played by "young studs who can hang and bang" where as trash sports
rely more on wits.

  I wasn't aware that the women's volleyball and basketball teams were made
up of young studs.

  George

OK, George, please enlighten us: What is a trash sport?

    2-man beach volleyball is tougher to play than 6-man indoor's, it
    is also more lucrative financially.  Which one would you play
    Tommy, the tough lucrative trash sport or the easier indoor need
    another job real sport?
    
    Jimbo

RE        <<< Note 140.473 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>OK, George, please enlighten us: What is a trash sport?

  Personally I don't believe any sport is a trash sport. I believe sports are
all played for fun and entertainment and the ones with longer histories tend
to be more sophisticated than others but if you like it it's fun if you don't
like it don't watch or play.

  Others, however, feel that there is an absolute standard by which sports
are measured and that some are trash sports and some are not.

  You would have to ask them for a definition of what is a trash sport and
what is not.

  George

  >> OK so if I understand you...
    
     You don't.

    
    >> Which one would you play Tommy, the tough lucrative trash sport 
    >> or the easier indoor need another job real sport?
    
       I'd go with the money. That doesn't change my oponion that it's
       a trash sport. There are alot of activities that require great
       physical and mental agility. And I'd prefer that most of them
       never became Olympic sports. Beach volleyball is no better than 
       arena football or 3-on-3 basketball. 

>... I believe sports are all played for fun and entertainment...

A belief that is prolly less than universally accepted.

However, as with all good sprots debates, ever sprotster is entitled to
his opinion.

> Personally I don't believe any sport is a trash sport.

On that, we have differing opinions, as well.

TTom

RE          <<< Note 140.477 by OLD1S::CADZILLA2 "Are you a Turtle?" >>>

>                        -< figure skating=trash sport >-

  Then by the most recent definition I've heard it must rely more on wits than
the ability of young studs to hang and bang. 

  George

    
    
      Ballroom Dancing =   Trash Sport

>  Then by the most recent definition I've heard it must rely more on wits than
>the ability of young studs to hang and bang. 

Independent of trashdom, I agree with this assertion concerning figure
skating.

TTom

RE  <<< Note 140.481 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "Donnie Baseball Yankee HOFer!!!" >>>

>      Ballroom Dancing =   Trash Sport

  Unless they allow the Lombada which has it's share of young studs hanging and
banging. 

  Or at least it gives that appearance.

  George

    What if they, like, buried pieces of broken beer bottles in the sand
    for the beach volleyball competition, to make it more realistic and
    typical of what we weekend-only amateur public beach VBers must 
    endure?  Then the game would be "tougher" to play, and undoubtedly 
    the ratings would go up, and the competitors would make even more 
    money...
    
    I don't think these standards (how tough it is; how much money it
    generates) should be used in the definition of "trashsport".  I will
    say that most of these "spinoff" sports (beach volleyball, team 
    "handball", mountain biking) are highly suspect.  For subjective 
    reasons, of course.
    
    glenn
    

     >> Then by the most recent definition I've heard it must rely 
     >> more on wits than the ability of young studs to hang and bang. 
    
        Can you point out where someone gave that definition? Arena
        football is a trash sport and most of those guys couldn't spell
        wits.    
    

    >> Unless they allow the Lombada which has it's share of young studs 
    >> hanging and banging. 
    
       I'll take your word for it.

    George I can now give you a simple answer to the query "What's a trash
    sport?":  Anything that appeals to NBC,CBS or ABC not to speak of Fox.
    If these anti-sport demons get ahold of anything that is good they will
    ruin it.  The latest is the PGA Championship yesterday where all they
    had to do was let the action speak for itself and yet they insisted on
    these close and personals, endless talk (note when baseball jibber-
    jabbers they show the action while they patter, the latest trend is to
    shut the viewer out).
    
    Sadly only pay-per-view cable can salvage what once was clearly true
    sporting activity.  Funny, Sports Illustrated saw it all coming when
    CBS crossed a boundary and bought the Yankees; I wonder if I can find
    that article.

>    Sadly only pay-per-view cable can salvage what once was clearly true
>    sporting activity.  ...

Like that bastian of cabledom, boxing?

I agree that CBS buying the Yankees was significant in terms of sprots.
Disney buying ABC and ESPN should make a_impact as well.

Perhaps, all we're saying here is that professional sprots, which
certainly includes the Olympics, are trash sprots.

Which, of course, means that the collegiate sprots will prolly go that
way, too...

    
    I restate my previous note. Figure skating is not a sport, so
    therefore it cannot even be a trash sport. No Hang and Bang or wits
    required. How can Ice Dancing be considered a sport. Does anyone
    believe that Ice skaters are athletes? 

I believe that ice skaters are athletes.

Eric Heiden and Bonnie Blair meet any definition of a_athlete.

TTom

    
    TTom,
    
      I would make the same point. Note should have said " Are figure
    skaters considered athletes"

RE          <<< Note 140.492 by OLD1S::CADZILLA2 "Are you a Turtle?" >>>

>      I would make the same point. Note should have said " Are figure
>    skaters considered athletes"

  There's no question that they are athletes. How many people do you know that
can land a combination Double Axel Triple Toe?

  George

      >> I will say that most of these "spinoff" sports (beach volleyball, 
      >> team "handball", mountain biking) are highly suspect.  For subjective 
      >> reasons, of course.
    
         Subjectivity is pretty much what it comes down to. I'd be
         as hard-pressed to define "trash sport" as I would "porno-
         graphy" but as the man said, "I know it when I see it. 
         Show me some." Like Glenn says, spinoff sports are immed-
         iately suspect whether it's arena football or 3-on-3 basket-
         ball. The word 'dance' or 'extreme' or 'ulitimate" in the 
         name of the so-called sport is a dead giveaway. Any sport 
         where acting lessons are a plus is trash. Any sport that 
         started off as a west coast fad is trash. Any sport that 
         I never even heard of as a kid much less played is trash.
              
    

    >> There's no question that they are athletes. How many people do 
    >> you know that can land a combination Double Axel Triple Toe?
    
       About as many as I know that can execute the snap suplex from
       the top rope. That doesn't make pro wrasslers 'athletes' either.
       It just makes 'em athletic actors.

    
    I'll restate the question. Is there anyone besides George the thinks
    Figure Skaters are true atheltes?

    
    >I'll restate the question. Is there anyone besides George the thinks
    >Figure Skaters are true atheltes?
    
    Yep, me.  Now ask me if the scoring of an athletic event has any
    bearing on whether the an individual is an athlete or not.
    
    Marc
    

>         Subjectivity is pretty much what it comes down to.

If you had just said this in the first place it probably would have saved
30 replies worth of file space...

>If you had just said this in the first place it probably would have saved
>0 replies worth of file space...

In your opinion :=]

    >> If you had just said this in the first place it probably 
    >> would have saved 30 replies worth of file space...

       I thought that it was a subjective viewpoint was a given.
       Little did I know that Roland Duprez was taking every word
       as if it came down from the Mount.

>       Little did I know that Roland Duprez was taking every word
>       as if it came down from the Mount.

It's just indicative of the tremendous respect I have for you, Tommy :-)

RE        <<< Note 140.494 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>Like Glenn says, spinoff sports are immed-
>         iately suspect whether it's arena football or 3-on-3 basket-
>         ball. 

  - Basketball is a spinnoff sport. It was invented at Springfield College in
    the 19th century to keep football players busy in the winter.

  - Baseball is a spinnoff sport. It's a modification of the 18th century
    children's game of rounders.

  - Tennis, squash, handball, racquetball, badminton? They couldn't have
    all evolved separately

  - Volleyball is suspicially like a cross between basketball and tennis.

>  Any sport where acting lessons are a plus is trash. 

  - That would include football where the kicker often puts on a show taking
    a flop for the ref to draw a roughing the kicker call.

  - In one of the Olympic soccer matches a player drew a penalty by faking
    being hit from behind. The announcers said it was all too common.

  - The Champ himself admitted once that he use to "talk up" boxing matches to
    increase the gate.

  Looks like just about every sport is trash. In fact, wacking a Dino with
a Mastodon bone may be the only true sport.

  George

  >> Basketball is a spinnoff sport. It was invented at Springfield College in
  >> the 19th century to keep football players busy in the winter.

      What exactly does that makes basketball a spinoff of? I'm missing
      sumpin' there. 
  
    

RE        <<< Note 140.504 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>      What exactly does that makes basketball a spinoff of? I'm missing
>      sumpin' there. 
  
  It was meant to be an indoor version of football played by football teams.

  To keep injuries down and to keep from wrecking the building rules were
introduced making it a non-contact game, having the players dribble rather
than carrying the ball and having them throw it into a basket rather than
just running across the goal but other than that it was meant to be indoor
football.

  George

    
    
       Would that make bowling a Spinoff of Basketball? You roll it instead
    of dribbling and you just take 5 or so steps so not to get tired.
    Except when you gotta walk out to the bar.
    
    
    Chap

  
  >> It was meant to be an indoor version of football played by 
  >> football teams.

  >> To keep injuries down and to keep from wrecking the building 
  >> rules were introduced making it a non-contact game, having the 
  >> players dribble rather than carrying the ball and having them 
  >> throw it into a basket rather than just running across the goal 
  >> but other than that it was meant to be indoor football.

     So other than the fact that it's absolutely nothing like football
     it's indoor football? If you say so. 
    

  Just about every sport is spun off something.

  Certainly 10 pin bowling would be a spinoff. Seems they use to bowl on a
lawn back in the 19th century and who knows what before that.

  Football, rugby, and soccer all seem similar enough that they probably were
spun either from each other or a common source. Hockey is soccer on ice. Field
hockey is ice hockey on grass, etc. etc. etc.

  George

    
    
      BTW George for your own personal knowledge. That is the Punter not
    the Kicker who does the flop when someone just knicks him.
    
        You know most Libraries have books on these things.
    
    
    
    Chap

  Regardless the fact is that they commonly put on an act to draw a flag and if
acting means the sport is a junk sport then football is a junk sport. 

  George

    
    
       Yes George.

    
      George, I thought your description on the origin of basketball 
     sounded fictitious and I was right. I'd never heard football linked
     to basketball and with good reason - it wasn't.
    
    
    

Dr. James A. Naismith was born on November 6th in Almonte, Ontario.  He 
invented the sport of basketball while serving as a physical education 
instructor at the Young Men's Christian Assciation (YMCA) in Springfield, 
Massachusettes.  

He was asked by Dr. Luther H. Gulick to develop an indoor game as a 
winter alternative to gymnastics.  In December 1891, using peach baskets 
nailed to balconies at opposite ends of the gym, and a soccer ball, Dr. 
Naismith coached the first basketball games.  In 1892 he published a 
booklet containing the basic <A HREF="/~menningb/history/rules.html">
rules</A> still in use today.  He served as head of pyscial education at the 
University of Kansas from 1898 until his retirement in 1937.  He died on 
November 28, 1961.

    
      If acting is integral to footbal then how many points would 
     Matt Bahr get for "artistic interpretation" if after a missed
     field goal, he was to do a pirouette and segue into his inter-
     pretation of a dying swan?

RE        <<< Note 140.513 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>      If acting is integral to footbal then how many points would 
>     Matt Bahr get for "artistic interpretation" if after a missed
>     field goal, he was to do a pirouette and segue into his inter-
>     pretation of a dying swan?

  If his kick was blocked, his team got the ball back and went on to score,
6 points.

  As for basketball the story I heard was that it was the football players
who were actually playing the game but still, the idea of moving a ball toward
a goal and putting it into or though a goal is football. The fact that they
actually used a soccer ball emphasizes just how much it was like football
since they were using the same ball.

  George

    
    
    
    Well maybe you heard WRONG.

       Dr. Naismith's Original Thirteen Rules
 
   The ball may be thrown in any direction with one or both hands.

   The ball may be batted in any direction with one or both hands (but 
    not with the fists).

   A player cannot run with the ball, and he must throw it from the same 
   spot where he caught it.

   The ball must be held between the hands (not by the arms or body).

   Fouls shall be called against players who shove, hold, push, trip or 
   strike an opposing player.

   Striking the ball with the fist constitutes a foul.

   If any team makes three consecutive fouls, it counts as a goal for 
   the other side.

   A goal is made when the ball is thrown or batted into the basket and 
   stays there.  Each goal counts for one point.

   When the ball goes out of bounds, it must be thrown back into play by 
   the person who first touches it within five seconds; otherwise, the other 
   side gets possession of the ball.

   An umpire makes note of each foul and has the power to disqualify any 
   player.

   The referee decides when the ball is in play, in bounds, to which 
   side it belongs and how much time is left.  He also decides whether a 
   goal has been made.

   The games consists of two 15 minute halves, with five minutes of rest 
   in between.

   The side making the most points in that time frame is the winner.

  >> If his kick was blocked, his team got the ball back and 
  >> went on to score, 6 points.

     That's not the question. The question was, "how much would
     he get for artistic interpretation"? A field goal is worth 3  
     points, a touchdown is 6 points, a safety is 2 points, How
     much more do you get for "artistic interpretation"? The an-
     swer might explain a lot of those touchdown dances.

  >> the idea of moving a ball toward a goal and putting it into or 
  >> though a goal is football. The fact that they actually used a 
  >> soccer ball emphasizes just how much it was like football since 
  >> they were using the same ball.

     George, try saying "I was wrong" just to see if you're capable 
     of saying the words. I know you're incapable of writing them
     but try saying them. Moving the ball towards the goal is also
     lacrosse, hockey and every other ball sport known to man with the 
     possible exception of baseball but even then the ultimate scoring 
     weapon is the homerun which is hitting the ball over the goal. The 
     fact that they used a soccer ball emphasizes that they used what 
     was handy and nothing else. I suppose they could have used a goat 
     bladder filled with air but why reinvent the wheel.
    

And to further shed some light on this:


	Rugby did descend from soccer.  In the 1840s, William Webb Ellis,
	a soccer player at Rugby School in England, got frustrated, picked 
	up the ball and ran it across the goal line.  That's generally
	accepted to be the birth of "rugby football"

	Later on, as rugby developed, the term "scrummage" came into be,
	as a scrum was a way of putting the ball back into play after
	a stoppage.   

	"American Football" descended from rugby, the "scrummage line"
	becoming the line of scrimmage, and continuous play being transformed
	into "four down to make ten yards."

	An intermediate sport between the two is "Rugby League."


'Saw

  So then according to Tommy's rules, Rugby and American Football are spin
offs and thus junk sports.

  George

  >> So then according to Tommy's rules, Rugby and American Football 
  >> are spin offs and thus junk sports.

     There are no "rules", George. As I said it's a subjective thang.
     What I might consider junk sports, you may not. Figure skating
     for instance. I also said spinoff sports are immediately "suspect". 
     You've never been very good with facts ( you tend to bend them to
     suit your needs) but you're having a harder time than usual today.

     BTW - I really need closure on this Naismith basing basketball on 
     football for footballers thang. Please fess up that you had your
     head planted firmly betwixt your buttocks (again) on that one so's
     I can move on.
    

RE        <<< Note 140.520 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     BTW - I really need closure on this Naismith basing basketball on 
>     football for footballers thang. Please fess up that you had your
>     head planted firmly betwixt your buttocks (again) on that one so's
>     I can move on.
    
  Don't hold your breath. Now that you are backing off on your hard core "It's
a junk sport" to "There are no "rules"" without admitting a mistake I see no
need to fess up on my part. 

  Besides, knowing the way you think I'm 100% positive that had you been a
sports fan at the time basketball had been invented and if you had seen those
early games with giant football players trundling down the floor trying to
bounce a ball and toss it into a peach basket, you would have been the 1st
person to cry "junk sport". 

  George

This topic reminds me of the story "No Exit", which I believe was written
by Jean Paul Sartre (Perhaps Albert Camus, but I think Sartre.)  The original
french title was "Huit Clos" or something like that.

>I see no need to fess up on my part.

That's the true SPROTS spirit.

Football, basketball, hail it's all about the same. Any sport that uses a
ball has to be a spinoff of the rest of 'em, eh?

What we have here is another fine distinction of sprots. One class of
sports involves a_object, most often a ball, and there's a bunch of 'em.

The other class of sports doesn't. Like boxing and rassling

TTom

P.S. Tommy, thanks for the info on how hoops really started.

    
     >> if you had seen those early games with giant football players 
     >> trundling down the floor trying to
    
        There weren't any "giant football players". You made that part
        up.

Over in the BOX, they got a topic on "make up a fack".

I don't think we need a separate topic for non-facks cause SPROTS seems
to be lousy with 'em.

So we have yet another distinction. Some non-facks are known to be by the
author. Some are not but the author knows that he don't know. Some are
simple screw ups.

TTom

  I disagree with the idea that basketball is nothing like football. 

  Take a look at that list. You still have the idea of teams moving a ball
toward a goal while the other team tries to prevent them from moving it toward
the goal and you still have the idea of using the ball to score a goal once you
have arrived. 

  Now compare that to other big games at the time like baseball where the
offense doesn't even control the ball, tennis where the ball is volleyed across
a net, or golf where there is no defense and suddenly you see that basketball
is basically hand soccer (i.e. football). 

  The idea that some gymnastics teacher pulled the rules of basketball out of
thin air with no thought to soccer is ridiculous. If you wanted to invent
indoor soccer, tone it down and make it more a finesse game to prevent injury
and damage to the building, basketball is exactly what you would get. 

  Meanwhile I notice that my adversaries are avoiding American Football like
the plague. So what about it, is American Football a junk sport because it is a
spin off of Rugby and soccer or are you ready to concede that point?

  George

I think soccer is a spin off of running.

Talking is a spinoff of breathing.

Thinking aint no sport.

Money talks, b.s. walks.

               <<< Note 140.522 by CAM::WAY "and keep me steadfast" >>>
    
    >This topic reminds me of the story "No Exit", which I believe was written
    >by Jean Paul Sartre (Perhaps Albert Camus, but I think Sartre.)  The 
    >original french title was "Huit Clos" or something like that.
    
     There another one by a fantasy science fiction writer, name escapes
    me called "The Worm Oroborus" where the theme is the constant starting
    over and replaying of events.
    
    Btw, does George remind anyone of Cosell?  That's not an insult btw for
    many of us, I only began to dislike Howard Cosell at the end, earlier
    he was a very dynamic sprots journalist.
    
    

>    Btw, does George remind anyone of Cosell? 

No, George reminds me of ACC without the hoops. ACC was never at a loss
to concoct a theorem, conspiracy or just plain inanity. However, ACC was
a true fan of hoops and could more than hold his own in that regard.

Wait a minute: ACC reminds me of Cosell :=]

I don't read much of the baseball topics so I caint really comment on
George's expertise in those areas.

TTom

RE            <<< Note 140.522 by CAM::WAY "and keep me steadfast" >>>

>This topic reminds me of the story "No Exit", which I believe was written
>by Jean Paul Sartre (Perhaps Albert Camus, but I think Sartre.)  The original
>french title was "Huit Clos" or something like that.

  Yes, Jean Paul Sartre wrote "No Exit". He is mostly known for being the
father of existentialism which he wrote about in some of his more theoretical
works such as "Being and Nothingness". His beliefs ran contrary to the ancient
philosophers like Plato and Aristotle who all believed that there existed some
supreme truth controlled by the gods and that man was always seeking that truth.
In existentialism there is no truth other than what an individual happens to
believe at the moment. 

  It's not surprising that this debate reminds Frank of Satre. The debate over
existentialism is one we have all the time here in the SPORTS notes file with
some people feeling there are rules chiseled in stone as to what is a real
sport, what is a real fan etc while others of us feel there is no truth to
sports and any game is as good as the next while being a fan is what ever you
want it to be. 

  George 

I guess that makes Sartre a spin off of Plato...

I have a_existential problem: I aint in either the "rules" camp or the
"any game is as good as the nexted" camp.

I don't think there are rules to being a fan but that it's easy to tell
someone who runs their mouth versus someone who follows a given sport.
However, being a_Merkin kinda guy, to each their own.

I think fandom is one of those things that has properties rather than
definitions. Things like actually watching the sport or going to games.

And there's no way you're gonna convince me that MLB is as good as
college hoops nor am I likely to convince say Duprez that NASCAR is as
good as MLB.

TTom

 >> Take a look at that list. You still have the idea of teams 
 >> moving a ball toward a goal while the other team tries to 
 >> prevent them from moving it toward the goal and you still 
 >> have the idea of using the ball to score a goal once you
 >> have arrived. 

    Moving the ball towards a goal is a pretty common theme 
    in sports around the world. Hockey and lacrosse also involve
    moving the ball (or puck) to the goal while the opposition tries 
    to stop you. Lacrosse is based on a North American Indian sport. 
    The Iroquois of Central New York were playing the game before 
    the white man ever came to America. They certainly never knew 
    anything about soccer when they started playing the game. 
    Waht's more, in 1890s just as in 1990s New England football was 
    fairly insignificant. Baseball was the dominant sport. Naismith 
    was a gymnastics teahcer not a football coach. He wasn't trying 
    to keep a football team in shape. He was trying to find recreation
    for young men at the Y. The rules he created could only be more 
    exclusive of the behavior displayed in football if he had created 
    a fourteenth rule that said "don't behave like a football player" 
    but he didn't because football probably never even entered his mind
    although you're doing your best to put it there posthumously.

 >> So what about it, is American Football a junk sport because it is a
 >> spin off of Rugby and soccer or are you ready to concede that point?

    I'm not sure what point you mean.
    

    
  >> some people feeling there are rules chiseled in stone 
    
     You must be speaking about yourself. One needs only express
     an opinion and here you come with, "What about so-and-so's
     rule...?" when what hhas been expressed is an opinion not
     a hard and fast rule.

RE        <<< Note 140.532 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>    Moving the ball towards a goal is a pretty common theme 
>    in sports around the world. 

  Exactly. And that's because many of the games around the world have evolved
from one another.

>    I'm not sure what point you mean.
    
  The point you keep ducking which is that despite what the American Indians
might have played, Rugby was a spin off from Soccer and American Football was
a spin off of Rugby just as beach volley ball is a spin off from regular
volley ball.

  That does not make it a trash sport. In fact you couldn't define the phrase
"trash sport" if you tried other than saying that a trash sport is one which
you feel deserves the designation.

  Or to put it another way, there is no supreme definition of pure sport and
the distinction between pure sport and trash sport is purely existential. 

  George

Re        <<< Note 140.533 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     You must be speaking about yourself. One needs only express
>     an opinion and here you come with, "What about so-and-so's
>     rule...?" when what hhas been expressed is an opinion not
>     a hard and fast rule.

  I disagree. The way many of those opinions are expressed is of a form such
that the person believes there is a rule and in their opinion you broke it. 

  For example, if you call someone a band wagon fan, the opinion is that
according to the rules of fandom you qualify as bandwagon but the given is that
those rules exist. 

  When you say "such and such" is a junk sport, the opinion is that according
to the rules which separate true sport from junk sport this qualifies as a junk
sport but again the implication is that there is that set of rules.

  However if you believe otherwise, then I could also say that my arguments
are just my opinions and I am as entitled to them as you are to your own.

  George

And, the proposition that basketball was a spin off of football remains
unsupported.

The Mayas or Aztecs - I get 'em mixed up - played a thing like basketball
but used human haids for the ball. This was obviously a spin off of a
technique employed by the Roman Army. The most famous rolling of a haid
was prolly the brother of Hannibal, Hasdrubal.

Of course, don't be confused by the fack that the Mayas/Aztecs never
talked to Hannibal...

TTom

RE        <<< Note 140.536 by HBAHBA::HAAS "more madness, less horror" >>>

>And, the proposition that basketball was a spin off of football remains
>unsupported.

  And the point that basketball was only one item in a list remains ignored.

  And with good reason, claiming the other sports on that list are not
related would look ridiculous.

  George

  >> Exactly. And that's because many of the games around the world 
  >> have evolved from one another.
 
     No, not exactly. Regardless of the culture a game must have an
     obect/goal. Whether it is to get to home plate, cross a goal or
     put the ball/puck in the net. The Iroquois game developed comp-
     letely independent of any European influence yet it is remarkably
     similar to soccer or hockey. Their was tribe in the southwest 
     (Navajo?) that played a game that covered hundreds of square miles
     that resembled soccer on an obviously much larger field. They'd 
     never even seen Europeans at the time much less soccer. Basketball
     isn't based on football. It's based on an idea that DR. James Naismith
     had. That happens.

  >> just as beach volley ball is a spin off from regular
  >> volley ball.

  >> That does not make it a trash sport. 

     Never said that it did. I'll repeat it and maybe you'll get it this 
     time (but probably not) trash is a completely subjective viewpoint. 
     Tom Sweeney and Bruce may might not feel that bvb is a trash sport
     but I do and no amount of facts that you can make up will change my
     mind.

 
    

>remains ignored

OK. Basketball being a spin off from football is one item on a list.
This assertion has been held up to the light of truth and shown to be
innaccurate a point which has been overtly recognized and declared not
worthy of fessing up to.

The assertions of the other sports on the list have not been
demonstrated. They lay there like used bathroom tissue in a toilet that
you'd rather not stir up lest you see the full extent of the ca-ca.

TTom

RE        <<< Note 140.538 by MSBCS::BRYDIE "I need somebody to shove." >>>

>     No, not exactly. Regardless of the culture a game must have an
>     obect/goal. Whether it is to get to home plate, cross a goal or
>     put the ball/puck in the net. The Iroquois game developed comp-
>     letely independent of any European influence yet it is remarkably
>     similar to soccer or hockey. 

  Fine, but so what? The example I gave was football being derived from
soccer. I never said there were not games that derived separately, I only
said that some games which today are very highly respected were spin offs
from other sports yet few call them junk sports.

>     Never said that it did. I'll repeat it and maybe you'll get it this 
>     time (but probably not) trash is a completely subjective viewpoint. 
>     Tom Sweeney and Bruce may might not feel that bvb is a trash sport
>     but I do and no amount of facts that you can make up will change my
>     mind.

  Well that's what I said back at the start as well, that this was only your
opinion and that in my opinion there was no such thing as a junk sport.

  If we are on the same page and this is nothing but a misunderstanding, then
perhaps it would be best if we let it drop.

  George

> If we are on the same page and this is nothing but a misunderstanding, then   
                
> perhaps it would be best if we let it drop.

 but naturally we reserve the right to pick it up at a moment's notice when     
 we're bored and feel the need to potificate......right?

 

 
>>    Btw, does George remind anyone of Cosell? 
>
> No, George reminds me of ACC without the hoops.
    
    My vote is for Cliff Claven...
    
    
    glenn
    

Yeah but normally when Cliff gets shut down he stays shut down....

>  I disagree with the idea that basketball is nothing like football. 

	That speaks volumes regarding the reasons why most 
folks inhere simply "blow off" most of your rhetoric, regardless
of the topic.


billl

  For what it's worth, I'm not observing that "most people" disregard what I
say, rather it is my observation that one small group of about 10 or so people
in this file seem obsessed with arguing with me while some others agree, some
disagree, and others not interested in the topic do not get involved one way or
the other. 

  Case in point, in 140.544 you have taken the time to write a note about me.
Find a note where I took the time to write about you. 

  George 

    
      re. 546
    
      Too funny.

  I didn't write about him, I just gave my view about what he said.

  Show me a note where I called him by name and commented on his noting style.

  George

cheese, Tommy, I thought the Olympics legitimized beach volleyball.  8^)

Did Michael Johnson win his race because his balls reached a goal firsted?

Can someone tell me what happened to the US 4X100 team, how'd they lose?

brews

    
    
        The Canadian Team crossed the finish line first.
    
       HTH's
    Chap

thanks chap, I expected such a deep understanding of the topic from you.

    
    
       NO PROB....
    
    
    
        Chap