Conference hbahba::cam_sports

Well, I, for one, think that there will always be a place in the Majors
for a team with old, slow players.

'Saw
    

    	Bruno Sammartino signed with the Brewers?  The guy's got to
    be at least 89 years old!  Looks like the Sox let one get away.
    
    				/Don

    
    Heiser, you faux cultured yuppy!
    
    iz called "da cellar"
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    a defender of the culture-less!
    Dannon_for_Kev
    

>                -< Make that old, slow players who cain't hit >-


Yep, I forgot that most important clause......


'Saw
    

    Hey Farley take that back!  I don't own a Volvo and don't wear velour
    clothing!

    Well I feel comfortable this morning knowing that Carlos Quintana
    is looking for a $510,000. increase in salary from his base pay of
    $340K or so. Musta had a great year last year. Anyone know what he
    hit last year (besides that tree in Venezuela)?
    Wish I was arbiter in this one. NEXT....
    
    
    MikeL
    

    What does everyone think about the MIT dude's theory about the
    skybox-wind-shifts causing the degradation in home runs?

re: .11

You're assuming we care :-)

The Crazy Met

    	I think the lack of major league hitters caused the degradation
    of homeruns in Fenway. 
    
    				/Don

I hear my man Roj is throwing smoke all over the grapefruit league?
Think his arm will last till september?

;^)

    	MikeC, since Roger picked up that "Buns Of Steel" video he's
    been looking mighty impressive.
    
    				/Don

Didn't Clemens give up 5 hits and 4 runs yesterday??

The Crazy Met

    I heerd he bought the Cindy Crawford workout tape and now his right arm
    looks like Schwarzenegger's!!!
    
    (8^)*
    
    JaKe
    

    Rog didn't look too impressive yesterday.  He was missing the strike
    zone high.  He had a bad first inning (walked 2 - one of which forced
    in a run, and hit a batter - boy was Sax POed after getting dusted)
    giving up 3 runs.  He was outta there after 4 having thrown a lot of
    pitches -- I don't think he gave up any runs after the 1st inning,
    though.  I don't worry too much about his spring training outings.  He
    does things like run 5 miles right before game time and then does
    windsprints between innings purposely making himself fatigued.

    Are the Red Sox at home on May 5 and how easy is it to get tickets?
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    Dennis, the Sox are home against Oakland on May 5.  Game time is 7:35
    pm.  You shouldn't have too much of a problem getting tickets since it
    is a weeknight game.  I doubt you'll get box seats, but there are alot
    of good seats in the bleachers.  Give the box office a call at
    (617)267-1770.

    Excerpt from a leter received at Fenway and faxed to Ft Myers;
    
                        RE:  Dennis "Oil Can" Boyd
    
    Dear Mr. Gorman
    
          This firm has been retained by Dennis Boyd to seek legal relief
    from his exclusion from baseball despite substantial evidence of his
    ability to pitch effectively at the major league level.
                                                              ------
    
    
    I don't know what's sadder; Can going through with this riciculous
    charade or his self delusion that he is of "major league caliber"
    Have other teams received this letter besides the Red Sox?
    
    Even has an ironic twist.... the law firm Can retained is from
    Cleveland ( of which Can's immortal words will live in infamy) and
    the letter was sent to "YANKEY" Way (da Bambino curse agin!).
    
    What else can our HomeTown Team get hit over the haid with?
    This is about as asinine,IMO, as Matt Young claiming the Bosox never
    gave him a chance and Clemens coming to his defense, and Jack the
    Whiffer saying the media made him broke.
    
    Talk about cursed.
    
    MikeL
    
    
    
        
                     

    Roger Clemens recorded another meaningless early-season victory over
    Kevin Appier and the KC Royals today by the score of 3-1, running his
    lifetime record to 153-72, .680 (2nd best winning pct. of all time).
    
    glenn
    

>    Roger Clemens recorded another meaningless early-season victory over
>    Kevin Appier and the KC Royals today by the score of 3-1, running his
>    lifetime record to 153-72, .680 (2nd best winning pct. of all time).
    
I caught from the 6th-8th inning on my home yesterday.  Roger seemed to
be pitching really, really well.

The Red Sox seemed to be playing pretty well also, although I was a bit
concerned about them late in the game.  They had opportunities to score
more runs (bases loaded at one point, two men on at another) with poor
KC pitching on the mound (Appier at one point, his reliever at another).

In both cases, the Sox failed to get a man in.  Not a good omen.


Is Viola pitching today?


'Saw    

    Sox are off today... Viola goes tomorrow against Cone..
    
    REK

>    Sox are off today... Viola goes tomorrow against Cone..
>    
>    REK

Thanks REK.  After I entered the note I wondered if they might have a break
today after their strenuous outing yesterday 8^)


'Saw

    All teams schedule open dates after home openers....gotta keep those
    lucky fans with the opener tickets happy. 
    
    If it rains on opening day those fans can still use their tickets on 
    the following day. It's the only time all year when you know what your 
    raindate will be even before it rains.
    
    Maj 

    
    	Looking at the schedule, it looks like Frankie V. will pitch the
    home opener and Rocket will pitch on Patriots Day.
    
    /Ron

        
    >	Looking at the schedule, it looks like Frankie V. will pitch the
    >   home opener and Rocket will pitch on Patriots Day.
    
    I'd love that, but I don't think we'll get so lucky.  Roger would have
    to pitch on 3 days' rest somewhere for that to happen (looks like this
    Sat- next Thurs- following Tues, or later, if they decide to stay in
    rotation).
    
    glenn
    

    Assuming they play tomorrow night.  Weather doesn't look good in KC.
    
    -Walt (who is SUPPOSED to be going)...
    

    	What a team!  What a defense!  What a pitching staff!  What
    a bullpen!
    
    				/Don

    
     The magic number is 161!

    Glenn, is Butch still planning on going with the 4 man rotation to
    start the year to give Darwin time to get healthy?

    
    > Glenn, is Butch still planning on going with the 4 man rotation to
    > start the year to give Darwin time to get healthy?
    
    Not that I've heard.  Darwin has declared himself healthy and was
    pitching in his turn late in spring training.  They won't need the 5th
    starter much in April anyway (and I would hope that's Hesketh).
    
    glenn
    

Haven't seen my paper yet today.

Did Rog get the complete game?  If not, who closed for him?


'Saw

    Rog went 8 and RUSSELL did a 4 pitch ninth for the save..
    
    REK

Thanks.

I know the guy on the radio (Ken Coleman?) said that Butch wouldn't use
Russell before the 9th......


'Saw

    Yea,
    Butchie larned the hard way that ol' Jeff had lost da Cheese......
    and so did Bobby Cox...
    
    MikeL
    

    > Russell claims that Valentine caused all his blown saves last year by
    > bringing him at the wrong time.  I'm sure Butch learned a few things
    > after watching Reardon blow several last season as well.
    
    There's actually a perverse truth to this (Russell did have tough save
    opportunities-- Reardon didn't), but only to those who live and die by 
    the near-completely-bogus save stat, and its counterpart, the blown save.
    Can you picture Rollie Fingers blaming Dick Williams for "causing" a
    blown save by bringing him into a tough game situation?  This used to
    be what relief pitchers were for; now they want to be optimized around 
    such trouble spots...
    
    glenn
    

    	HaHa!  Absolutely Glenn.  If they used/babied Fingers the way
    they do today's relievers, he would have a save record that would
    be as unapproachable as Dimaggio's 56 game hitting streak.
    
    				/Don

>    There's actually a perverse truth to this (Russell did have tough save
>    opportunities-- Reardon didn't), but only to those who live and die by 
>    the near-completely-bogus save stat, and its counterpart, the blown save.
>    Can you picture Rollie Fingers blaming Dick Williams for "causing" a
>    blown save by bringing him into a tough game situation?  This used to
>    be what relief pitchers were for; now they want to be optimized around 
>    such trouble spots...
    
Good points, Glenn.

It used to be in baseball that they had no relief pitchers.   The starters
were manly men, who threw into the late innings, and dug down inside and
somehow found the stamina to go on, even though their arms were like
spaghetti.

Then along came the relief pitcher, perhaps one of the sexiest positions
baseball has ever seen.   Late innings, tight game, men on base, opponent's
best hitter coming to the plate.  Out to the mounds strolls the manager,
taking his time to let his ace fireman have a couple more pitches.
Purposefully he taps his left forearm.  He wants the southpaw.

The ace comes in.  He'll fall into one of two categories:  the pitcher
who'll tear you down head on with heat, or the pitcher who'll get it
by you with guile.

The manager has chosen the southpaw who throws heat.  He throws his
ten warmup pitches, and the proceeds to mow down the opponent's best
hitter with three pitches -- all fast balls, all right down Broadway,
all saying "Hit me if you think you're man enough".

Yes, perhaps those days are going the way of the iron-man starter.
Perhaps today's relief pitchers are more concerned with stats than they
are the reputation of being a heat-throwing, studmaster closer, or
the reputation of being the crafty, studious pitcher who makes the ball
jump and twitch, and tantalizing taunt a hitter into swinging and missing.

Perhaps we've seen the last of the Rollie Fingers, the Goose Gossages
and others of their like.....



'Saw    

GREAT game last night.

I caught it from the 9th inning on, and boy, those Red Sox never gave up.
Even when they were down a run in the 13th, they never quit, whereas last
year I'd have thought that they were toast.

Nice way to win it last night.


btw, hopefully, that was the extra inning game that WON'T fall on Pats day....


'Saw

    
> btw, hopefully, that was the extra inning game that WON'T fall on Pats day....
    
    I'd take a game like that, anytime.  Sure, it came in at 3:45, but
    that's about the average time for your usual Fenway 9-7 affair anyway.
    
    So far, they are exciting...
    
    glenn
    

>    I'd take a game like that, anytime.  Sure, it came in at 3:45, but
>    that's about the average time for your usual Fenway 9-7 affair anyway.
>    
>    So far, they are exciting...
    
Agreed, but I've had my fill of extra innings on Pats Day 8^)


'Saw    

    
    Yabbut yesterday (where else?) on the radion, I heard that the BoSox,
    in an attempt to speed up da games have implemented a time limit
    of 2 minutes between halves in an inning.
    
    Dere's a ball boy sitting near 3rd base with a stopwatch and da
    announcer's supposed to say when there's 30 seconds to go.
    
    snort snot sschlepps!
    
    I remain,
    wondering if it's a mechanical or 'lectric stopwatch?
    Kev
    

>    Yabbut yesterday (where else?) on the radion, I heard that the BoSox,
>    in an attempt to speed up da games have implemented a time limit
>    of 2 minutes between halves in an inning.

I thought that the league had cut the time between innings down from 
2 minutes to 1:45, or even 1:30....

    
>    Dere's a ball boy sitting near 3rd base with a stopwatch and da
>    announcer's supposed to say when there's 30 seconds to go.

What I had heard was the the announcer was supposed to announce the first
batter when the limit is up, whether or not the batter is in the box.



'Saw    

     <<< Note 88.50 by AXIS::ROBICHAUD "ComeToMiami-AndGiveUsYourMoney!" >>>
                               -< Fool's Gold! >-

                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
					that's one man's opinion, however
wrong it may be!!!!!  

;^)

Soxs are cinch for the penant without "one way Wade"....

mike    

    
    	Yabbut
    
    ARISE!!!
    
    	AWAKEN!!!!!
    
    T'is time to bring forth that time honored and favorite topic,
    responsible for billions and billions of undirected electrons to
    reach their fulfillment and be cast into the role of the permanent
    record of everybody's favorite Bazeball topic:
    
    
    
    	Roger's ERA is 1.5
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    curious, izzat any good?
    Kev
    

>    So far, they are exciting...
    
    Yeah, and they're getting booed for being exciting.  I can't believe
    that the fans booed when the Indians sniffed out the squeeze attempt. 
    The Sox went for the W with a gutsy call.  

    	Only one pennant BigMac.  The Sox only win one per decade.

    Oh yeah.  That was 2 AL East titles, not 2 pennants.

>    Oh yeah.  That was 2 AL East titles, not 2 pennants.

     Actually, it was 3 AL East Titles, 1 AL Pennant, 0 WS rings.

    > Yeah, and they're getting booed for being exciting.  I can't believe
    > that the fans booed when the Indians sniffed out the squeeze attempt. 
    > The Sox went for the W with a gutsy call.  
    
    Yes, it just goes to show that when it comes to baseball knowledge and
    strategy, even at hallowed Fenway, ignorant kneejerk second-guessers
    abound.  The squeeze is not a bad call there, with one out.  The tough
    decision came a batter earlier, when Butch sacrificed Riles to third 
    even though the top of his order was up in the person of a good bat
    control man in Scott Fletcher.  The fly ball sacrifice is not an
    automatic, easy thing to do, and you're only giving yourself one shot 
    at it.  But I didn't hear anyone booing that call.  The fans were 
    waiting for something "bad" to happen, per usual...
    
    glenn
    

    You don't call for  a suicide squeeze when you're behind in the count,
    because the team can pitch out.  Normally you wait until it's 1-0 or
    2-0 in the count and the ball has to been within 20 feet of the
    plate...
    

fine Mac, have it you're way the Soxs are cinch to win the World Series this
year without "one way Wade".....

mike

    
    > You don't call for  a suicide squeeze when you're behind in the count,
    > because the team can pitch out.  Normally you wait until it's 1-0 or
    > 2-0 in the count and the ball has to been within 20 feet of the
    > plate...
    
    Yeah, I made the comment in RED_SOX that putting the play on on the
    first pitch might have been preferable, but 0-1 isn't an automatic 
    pitchout.  With first and second open and the game on the line the
    count doesn't mean anything, and you can pitch out to your heart's 
    delight (putting a man on first actually helps, if you luck into a 
    perfect DP ball).  It's just a risk, at almost any time.  The main 
    thing is not getting caught in a predictable count selection for 
    running plays.
    
    glenn
      
    

    Nah Kev the discussion to start is which day the Red Sox will clinch
    the division.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    My, my, my, what's gotten into the BoSox?  Or is it that Wade is gone?
    ;-)  I was looking forward to watching them on Saturday, but CBS
    thought our area would rather see the Ruds and the Muts.

    	Hope y'all had a good time after the game.  I'm still at work.
    8^(
    
    				/Don
    
    	P.S. This is the year!

    
    >>	P.S. This is the year!
    
    They been saying that up there since the Babe left, ain't they
    Slasher???
    
    JaKe
    

    	Yeah JaKe, but this time their for real! [Again]
    
    				/Don

    Slasher, sounds like a broken reco(clunk)broken reco(clunk)broken
    reco(clunk)broken reco(clunk)broken reco(clunk)broken reco(clunk)etc.
    etc. to me.
    
    JaKe
    

Hope y'all had a good time at the game.  I celebrated my day off by working 16
hours.  Billl, hope you had a few beers for me - obligation of using my tix!

I got up at 6:00 this morning and the car started automatically heading for
the rat.  Oh well.  

j.

    Bill had a few....
    
    -Walt (just got home a short time ago...)

There's got to be some whacky stuff going on.

Hesketh manages 8 shutout innings on Saturday.  Viola pitches the first
shutout by a southpaw (yea!) in 6  years, and Dopson pitches a 3 hit,
complete game shutout on Patriots Day.....

I have a decision to make.  This is kind of like a girl I used to date
in High School.  I went with her for a while, she dumped me, then we
got back together again, and broke up again, and, in the immortal words
of that blues legened B.B. King, "there is always one more time", we
went for three.  Ended the same way.

Now the Red Sox are teasing me again.  Starting 10-3, their best start
in 41 years.  As I said to Glenn yesterday, "It sure would be nice to
be sitting in the OPP in November recalling our conversation on Patriots
Day, and finally feeling that satisfaction".

So, do I HOPE that this is the season, and really get into it, only to
be dumped by the inevitable August el-foldo?  Or do I sit back, kind
of quasi-interested, and then when they win it all, kick myself for not
taking more of an interest?

I'm a sucker for a pretty girl, and a sucker for the Sox, I guess.....


'Saw

    You *always* have to give that girl another chance, maybe even if 
    she ain't so pretty.  Otherwise you just end up forever lonely and
    miserable, like a Cleveland Indians' fan...
    
    glenn
    

>      -< True bluesmen can appreciate the Sox, both their ups and downs >-
>
>
>    You *always* have to give that girl another chance, maybe even if 
>    she ain't so pretty.  Otherwise you just end up forever lonely and
>    miserable, like a Cleveland Indians' fan...
    

Amen.  

What the hell, she cain't hurt me as bad as she did in 1986.  When 
she dumped me in 1967, I was a little too young to realize it.   1975 was
a bummer, but I recovered.   In 1986, she was a nasty girl -- she had to
hurt the Chainsaw when she dumped him.....

Yep, "there's always one more time....."


'Saw    

    "These boots were made for walkin',
    and that's just what they'll do...
    One of these days these boots 
    are gonna walk all over you..."
    
    -Nancy Sinatra

re :.74

Hey isn't that what the FBIkept playing down in Waco, Texas??

The Crazy Met

>Hey isn't that what the FBIkept playing down in Waco, Texas??

Except that they dubbed in M1A1 Abrams instead of "boots".....


hth,
'Saw

    Yup... and they played it at Fenway yesterday... coincedence?
    

    
    'Saw,
    
    	What's that they say about paybacks? :*)
    
    Claybroon

    Chris Bosio pitched a no-hitter against the Red Sox tonight; score
    was 7-0. Bosio retired the last 26 hitters - not sure what the first
    one did. Vasquez made a bare handed pick up to get the last out of the
    game.
    
    Once again ESPN comes through with flying colors. They showed the 9th
    inning live - it was the NESN feed. No other network can come close to
    do these kind of things. I hope they keep showing baseball when the new
    TV contract is finalized.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    > Chris Bosio pitched a no-hitter against the Red Sox tonight; score
    > was 7-0. Bosio retired the last 26 hitters - not sure what the first
    > one did. Vasquez made a bare handed pick up to get the last out of the
    > game.
    
    That's Vizquel, who made a number of nice if not spectacular plays on
    the night.  Bosio walked the first two batters, Riles and Quintana,
    then Greenwell hit into a DP and the next 25 men went down in order.
    Very impressive.
    
    I had the game on the radio, fell asleep, woke up in the bottom of the
    8th and immediately turned on ESPN.  There it was, as expected.  They
    do a nice job.
    
    glenn
       

    First 2 batters walk, Grennwell hits into a DP and Bosio gets real
    lucky...
    
    REK

re: .81

Not sure I have ever seen a no-hitter that did not have an element of
luck in it. 

The Crazy Met

    I should have added a :-}....
    
    Sorry TCC....
    
    REK

No cable contract for the M's yet. Local Channel 11 shows some games but not 
that one. A couple of guys here were at the game. I had an invite but declined
due to a desperate need for sleep. I'm glad ESPN showed the last inning at
least so I could watch it on the tube...

It's amazing the things you come across flipping through the channels during
commercials. Unfortunately it caused me to miss most of Cheers.

Metz

Cheers? That was long over on the East Coast by the time the 9th inning
began :-)

Metz, if you're really nice I have last nights Cheers episode on
tape and I could send it out to you.

The Crazy Met

    The real Red Sox have shown up in place of those impostors that came up
    from Florida for the first couple weeks of the year.  I don't mind the
    current five-game losing streak so much, because the Sox are still a 
    respectable 11-8, but it's the obvious lack of offense that *will* 
    continue to plague this team that's disturbing (message to Lou Gorman:
    send HELP!).  These guys couldn't hit their way out of a wet paper sack 
    even if Mo Vaughn were to rip a huge hole in it first.  You just hate 
    to see such a historical rarity as great Red Sox pitching being wasted 
    again, as it has been since about 1990, really...
    
    glenn
     

>    The real Red Sox have shown up in place of those impostors that came up
>    from Florida for the first couple weeks of the year.  I don't mind the
>    current five-game losing streak so much, because the Sox are still a 
>    respectable 11-8, but it's the obvious lack of offense that *will* 
>    continue to plague this team that's disturbing (message to Lou Gorman:
>    send HELP!).  These guys couldn't hit their way out of a wet paper sack 
>    even if Mo Vaughn were to rip a huge hole in it first.  You just hate 
>    to see such a historical rarity as great Red Sox pitching being wasted 
>    again, as it has been since about 1990, really...
    
Yes.  I can't believe that they couldn't hit the junk that Sanderson
was throwing last night.

With a GOLDEN opportunity to blow it wide open in the 7th, Quintana
couldn't put a flyball deep enough to score Dawson.   And then the
stiff SS who came to the plate looked pathetic.


Ugh......


'Saw     

Yes, that loud "thud" that was heard on the West Coast this weekend was not an
earthquake, but the Boston Red Sox falling to earth...

    Journeyman pitcher Scott Sanderson is now 8-3 lifetime against the Sox.
    
    It shoulda been 7-4.  The Sox wuz robbed on that call at the plate in
    the 9th.  How could the ump possibly be thinking of making an out call
    on a throw the catcher had to leap to get?

    
  >> It shoulda been 7-4.  The Sox wuz robbed on that call at the plate in
  >> the 9th.  How could the ump possibly be thinking of making an out call
  >> on a throw the catcher had to leap to get?
    
       And what about Butch Hobson's ho-hum reaction to the call? Most
      managers are out there screaming over even marginal calls but ole 
      Butch doesn't even bat an eye over an obviously botched call. Cheez 
      n' crackers, Butch, show a little life.

    
    
          Hey the ball was there first.... :-)
    
    
    
    Chappy

Mac please help me follow your logic.

Sanderson was 7-3 against the Red Sox before Sunday's game. If the Sox
get the call in the 9th then the game is tied 2-2. How does a tie translate
into a Sanderson loss?? 

The Crazy Met

>    Game is tied at 2 with one out and two on.  I'll leave the rest as an
>    excercise for the reader.

Next batter gets up, grounds to second for the inning ending double play.

Next inning, California cranks one out to win it 3-2.....


Any questions?

    Still doesn't fly Mac, since Sanderson left after the 7th inning...
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
    

heh heh

The Crazy Met

MO Better!
    

    Less Filling
    

    Roger Clemens is still the best sports bargain in town, and has been at
    least since injuries began to take their toll on Larry Bird.  The man
    is an absolute horse.  Saturdaay, with 110 pitches already under his 
    belt, he comes out for one more inning and strikes out the side.  That 
    brought on a standing ovation from my normally reserved and pensive 
    self... ;-)
    
    glenn
     

>    Roger Clemens is still the best sports bargain in town, and has been at
>    least since injuries began to take their toll on Larry Bird.  The man
>    is an absolute horse.  Saturdaay, with 110 pitches already under his 
>    belt, he comes out for one more inning and strikes out the side.  That 
>    brought on a standing ovation from my normally reserved and pensive 
>    self... ;-)
    
Roger did a FINE job on Saturday.   The Sox did a fine job this weekend
too.

One thing I've noticed is that there is a lot more EFFORT going on 
out there.   Zupcik had the nice catch in LF, and Vaughn down full out
for that line drive.

Good stuff!


'Saw     

>    If I could find your new office Mike, I woulda left the usual 'Clemens
>    is God' message on your board...


	Why just look for my REK, official Roger Clemens' fan picture on
 the cabinet where it's always been...

 ;^)

Last week I picked up part of my dad's Father's Day present.  It's this
really cool book called "Seasons of the Kid", about Ted Williams.

It has some dynamite pictures, ranging from baseball, to advertisements
he did, and it chronicles his career.   I took some time to look through
it, before stashing it away until June, and it was well worth the purchase
price.

If you see it, and if you're a Sox fan who liked The Splendid Splinter,
by all means, pick it up.



'Saw

    Re .104
    
    But Glen, it wasn't a BIG game.  :*)
    
    Lee

 No message from Karen... ;^(

 No standing O from Glenn?

 What's happening here.....So, I'm reading Billy Ballou's columun this
 morning and he's going on and on about how this only happens a couple
 of times a year and he's only human and finally about the 6th paragraph
 or so he mention the sore elbow the tendionitis, etc....

 was is the "horse" always breaking down when he looses????

 mike

    
 > No standing O from Glenn?

    Gimme time, wouldya?  I played hookie yesterday and was there to pay
    homage, and yes, Roger spit the bit.  Up 3-0 and blows the lead, and 
    you can count on one hand the number of times that's happened.  Wasn't 
    worth the vacation day...
    
    Look for Roger to rebound and to continue to deliver nothing but
    pitching excellence, but to lose an unusual number of games as the Red
    Sox' lineup begins to resemble that of the Quad City River Bandits...
    
    The sore elbow is a non-issue; Clemens made note of it when he was
    shutting down the league but said it wasn't a factor yesterday.
    
    glenn
    

>>    The sore elbow is a non-issue; Clemens made note of it when he was
>>    shutting down the league but said it wasn't a factor yesterday.

  maybe the statement made during the shutting down period was made in
  anticipation of yesterday? I'm sure he's wouldn't be feining an injury
  during a hot spell to add a few more stiches to his mantle such as
  his "airness'" ankle the other night?

 ;^)   
      

    
    Yo Childsey,
    How's about that Rocket, huh? 97 MPH cheese and 13 Bird K's! Agin a
    team that could capture the AlEast gonfalon. But wait, how silly
    of me... tis a meaningless game....
    
    BTW, 
    Nice to see the PawSox stocking up with more ready for prime time
    players. Franklin Stubbs, Steve Lyons, Herb Wiiningham. Have they
    tendered contracts to Fergie Jenkins, Bill Lee, or Bob Stanley yet?
    Purty soon they'll be able to whip the Olde Towne Team.. admittedly
    not a great feat.
    Man, the organiozation's young oplayers must be thrilled with this
    trend.
    
    MikeL
    

    
>    Yo Childsey,
>    How's about that Rocket, huh? 97 MPH cheese and 13 Bird K's! Agin a
>    team that could capture the AlEast gonfalon. But wait, how silly
>    of me... tis a meaningless game....
 
 couldn't have been much of a game MikeL., Glenn has yet to give standing
 O or KBD hasn't left me a message....

 What's his "Highness" beef with the Hearald???????

 mike

    	RE: Clemens
    
    	First it wasn't a big game and second since he follows the fifth
    pitcher on the staff that "record after a Red Sox loss" is bogus.
    To say anything else is ::SPROTS political incorrectness.
    
    	RE: PawSox
    
    	MikeL, I've been to a couple of PawSox games (much more enjoyable
    than Fenway) and they've got a couple of kids who impressed me.
    One is thirdbaseman Luis Ortiz and the other is the catcher who's
    big, tough and is batting over .300 (his name escapes me).
    
    				/Don

> couldn't have been much of a game MikeL., Glenn has yet to give standing
> O or KBD hasn't left me a message....
    
    You're right, Mike.  Run of the mill at this point, as only early
    retirement/injury and inept teammates might stand in the way of the 
    "greatest ever" tag.  Inefficiency with number of pitches used cost 
    Roger the one-hitter last night.  I'd rate it only a 7.5 on the
    Rog-o-meter.  I've seen better.
    
> What's his "Highness" beef with the Hearald???????
    
    Probably still with that lowlife scum George Kimball.  Although just
    about all the Boston baseball writers have their heads firmly
    entrenched these days.  Either Lou's brainwashed every one of 'em, or
    they're afraid their Fenway buffet privileges might get taken away.
    
    glenn
    

    
    >	First it wasn't a big game and second since he follows the fifth
    > pitcher on the staff that "record after a Red Sox loss" is bogus.
    > To say anything else is ::SPROTS political incorrectness.
                                
    Huh?  That might give Clemens more opportunities after a loss but it
    shouldn't affect his percentage (which is much higher than his pct.
    overall--not that that's such a big deal as it's made out to be).
    
    >	MikeL, I've been to a couple of PawSox games (much more enjoyable
    > than Fenway) and they've got a couple of kids who impressed me.
    > One is thirdbaseman Luis Ortiz and the other is the catcher who's
    > big, tough and is batting over .300 (his name escapes me).
    
    Ortiz can hit but supposedly can't field.  Bring him up, make him the
    DH, plop him in the OF; the Sox need the help.  I think the starting 
    catcher is John Flaherty, who was up last year and has never hit 
    before, especially for power...
    
    glenn
    

    >Probably still with that lowlife scum George Kimball.  Although just
    
    I heard they were making a movie based on "The Fugative (sp?)" Maybe
    he wants a cut on movie rights...
    

/er is the world coming to an end?? Since when did
you give a bleepity bleep about political
correctness, other than to always be incorrect?
Please confirm that you left your terminal ans
someone else posted that note.

:-)

The Crazy Met

                                                
    The flap with Roger and the Herald has to do with him finally taking
    exception to their regular feature "The World According to Roger",
    where they lift a grammatically incorrect quote verbatim from his 
    interviews in order to make him sound uneducated and stupid.  Such a 
    tactic used to be fairly common in the reporting of quotes taken from 
    Latin and black athletes, but was rightly judged to be demeaning and
    undignified (not to mention outright misleading).  So Roger has said he
    won't talk to the Herald reporters who are supplying the quotes.  Since
    sportswriters consider access to athletes their constitutional right
    even though they'll abuse the (voluntary) source in whatever way they 
    feel fit, expect that scaly-backed reptile Bob Sales down at the Herald 
    editing desk to start up with some entire irrelevant screeching about 
    freedom of the press, journalistic integrity, etc., etc., just as he
    did with the infamous George Kimball affair.  All with a straight face,
    of course.
    
    This feature of the Herald's is *exactly* what I was talking about when
    I said that many Bostonians have been unable to come to terms with
    where Roger Clemens comes from and who he is (read: that big dumb
    ungrateful Texan).
    
    glenn
    

    
  >> This feature of the Herald's is *exactly* what I was talking about when
  >> I said that many Bostonians have been unable to come to terms with
  >> where Roger Clemens comes from and who he is (read: that big dumb
  >> ungrateful Texan).
    
     Since when do a few jerks down at the Herald Star with an axe to grind
     qualify as "many Bostonians"?     
    

  >> This feature of the Herald's is *exactly* what I was talking about when
  >> I said that many Bostonians have been unable to come to terms with
  >> where Roger Clemens comes from and who he is (read: that big dumb
  >> ungrateful Texan).
    
   >  Since when do a few jerks down at the Herald Star with an axe to grind
   >  qualify as "many Bostonians"?     
    
    It's my experience that a lot of people read the Herald (and the Globe;
    they have their hatchet men, like Dan Shaughnessy) and take much of
    this stuff seriously.  Clemens gets more than his share.  Usually
    there's some "controversy" surrounding Clemens at the beginning of the
    season, there are the cries to take him down a peg, he gets booed on
    Opening Day, then once the season gets underway his performance speaks
    for itself and the critics blend into the background.  This season was
    actually an exception (so far ;-).
    
    glenn
    

    The Herald is a good "library" paper if'n you catch my drift. The
    only Herald writers who I enjoy are Joe Guiliotti( BoSox beat main) and
    a rare Gerry Callahan( wisearse).
    However with the new twist with the "personal" ads on Monday or Tuesday
    ala the Phoenix shows what a whore the Herald is. 
    Ya know I read one the other day...
    "M30ishWF seeks Romper Room fun with S/DM on the side. Must not smoke,
    root for ND, drink Miller Lite or contribute to SPORTS"  Wait till I
    get home.
    
    MikeL
    

 Read about it this morning in the Worcester rag but thanks for the info
 anyways Glenn and the concern to answer my original question. I noticed
 that the pitching rotation is changing next week so that Roger will get
 an extra day off. Funny how the effect of the change is that 2 games
 later Roger will pitch a nationally televised contest that he would 
 have missed. I'm wondering if CBS or Roger demanded this????

 mike

> Funny how the effect of the change is that 2 games
> later Roger will pitch a nationally televised contest that he would 
> have missed. I'm wondering if CBS or Roger demanded this????
 
    I think it's this Saturday's game that's national, not next Saturday's.
    Unless they re-scheduled that game with the Yankees too, and the Sox 
    are on two weeks in a row.  But thanks for always keeping an eye out
    for possible conspiratorial goings-on, Mike...  ;-)
    
    FWIW, I was critical that the Sox let Roger throw 143 pitches the other
    night for the sole purpose of racking up a shutout (a personal stat, no
    more, no less).  That's an average of 130+ pitches over the past three
    starts, which not only is risky to Clemens' health and performance, but 
    now results in the Sox starting someone from the bullpen on Sunday as 
    Roger is wisely given the extra day off.
    
    glenn
    
                      

	Anybody want to bet that it was that weenie Greenwell's crying to
management that caused the Slobs to pull a very funny Suffolk ad off their
radio stations?

				/Don

                                                                       
>	Anybody want to bet that it was that weenie Greenwell's crying to
> management that caused the Slobs to pull a very funny Suffolk ad off their
> radio stations?
    
    I dunno; only Wade Boggs was nearly directly targeted, and he's long
    gone hard to find.  From the first time I heard the ad (which is
    hilarious, and is also a surefire indication that Cementhaid Joe will
    never again be under the employ of the Boston Red Sox), I couldn't
    believe that the Sox were allowing it during their game broadcasts.  A
    couple of years back, they pulled the same stunt with that commercial 
    where the guy says to his kid, "I'm a Red Sox fan, son, the excitement
    has been bred right out of me."  And this was much more critical...
    
    glenn
    

what was the ad.

The Crazy Met

	I haven't heard the ad yunz are referrin' to.  Could someone
	enlighten me.


	billl

notes collision

The Crazy Met

re: the ad
It was an ad extolling the virtues of race horses over baseball players.

The punchline was something to the effect of "Race horses don't fool around
with women until AFTER they retire..."

    Yup, that's the one... that and horses don't worry about getting paid
    until they win...
    

	Who's scheduled to pitch for the Sox Saturday?  A good friend 
	showed up last night with tix in section 30.  Sheesh, I must be
	living right!


	billl

 I hear his Highness popped a groin last night? How bad is it? Will he
 miss his next start? 

 mike

    
 >>I hear his Highness popped a groin last night? How bad is it? Will he
 >>miss his next start? 
    
    There's a new name for this.  It's called "Bob Walk Syndrome" after the
    Pirate pitcher who makes an average of two or three trips a year to the
    DL with groin injuries.
    
    JaKe
    

You guys laugh about that groin injury an awful lot, but if you
mess up one of those muscles down there between your navel and your
pee-pee, it hurts like a sonofabitch.  And it can take a LONG time to
heal properly, and is very prone to re-injury.   Every time you think it's
healed,  you find out the next time you do something that it's still
messed up....


Anyone know how long the Rocket will be out?


'Saw

re: Da groin pull

How true, how true.  It is a reasonably common running injury, and there 
is no way to rest it.  I once had one that bothered me for a full year.

yeah Saw we've all pulled our groins once or twice but it's an invisable
injury. Seems to me that Clem has alot of these invisable injuries after
a bad outing....

mike

    FOR SALE:  4 tix to Sox vs. Baltimore Sunday June 13
    	Tix are section 31 row 4.  Good seats halfway between third
    and the wall 4 rows under the overhang( .ie no sun).
    
    First $40 in hand takes them.
    
    Jimbo

> yeah Saw we've all pulled our groins once or twice but it's an invisable
> injury. Seems to me that Clem has alot of these invisable injuries after
> a bad outing....
    
    When you're one of the greatest pitchers of all time and your bad
    outings are few and far between, how you feel and what you say after
    those rare ones is pretty much irrelevant, I would think.  But like I
    said, I'm a little worried right now.  Roger has been lousy except for
    one start since they let him run up those high pitch counts in three
    consecutive starts in early May.  And while everyone is denying that
    there could be any kind of a health or "dead arm" problem, the fact is
    that that kind of unnecessary overuse of the franchise was stupid.
    
    glenn
    

Actually, a few of the sportswriters/newscasters around here are saying
this:

	Roger is having a year that makes him merely human instead
	of super human.

At any rate, he's still the best Red Sox pitcher to come along for quite
some time, and I'd take him over that lardass Bob Stanley any day of the
week.....


8^)

'Saw

	But he can't hold a candle to Dick "the Monstah" Radditz!


	billl

Didn't Clemens have the same problems after a few high pitch count games last 
July or August?

The Crazy Met

	If I were Hobson I would have Melvin catch for Roger the next time
out. Pena's pitch selection on the first pitch has been awful. I watch a
lot of Red Sox games. Every team that comes in are hacking away at the first
pitch. Roger gave up about 5 or 6 hits on the first pitch, including
Mcrae's triple to lead off the first. KC was swinging at so many first pitches.
I would have had my pitcher throw at somebody's head the first pitch.
	Pena's tendancy is to have the pitcher throw a fastball the first
pitch, to get ahead on the count. Start throwing the split finger, or off
speed pitch more on the first pitch. Either that or instead of a 95/95 MPH
fastball, only throw it 90. When you get 2 strikes on the batter then unlease
the 95 mph fastball.
	I don't think high pitch counts or groin problem is hurting Clemens.
His pitches have all been the same speed. He has to vary speeds on all his
pitches to make him very effective.

/Ron

 yeah that's it let's BLAM(tm) the catcher......

 mike

    Roger's just being misinterpretated.  I couldn't care less what he
    says. The main's a horse.
    
    Oh and mikey, I'm intrigued by your p_name. Wot's the significance?
    
    MikeL
    

    	The thought of Roger pitching in, say a stadium the size of Oakland
    with a defensive team, say like the 1990-92 Pirates makes one wonder if
    30 wins and a sub 1.00 ERA would be a yearly standard.
    
    				/Don

Mike, if you be referin' to the Roger p-name, just means he wasn't "Superman"
again. He forgot his cape.....

Anyone care to comment about Phil O'Neil's report in the Worcester Sunday
Telegram yesterday? 

mike

    Glenn, Phil said the Sox should really try to trade Roger.  It would be
    best for the Sox (he's the only tradeable commodity they have and they
    really need some help), and for Roger (he ain't going to win a WS in
    Boston).  He also said Roger is getting an annoying habit of making
    excuses after losses, and losing at Fenway.

>    Glenn, Phil said the Sox should really try to trade Roger.  It would be
>    best for the Sox (he's the only tradeable commodity they have and they
>    really need some help), and for Roger (he ain't going to win a WS in
>    Boston).  He also said Roger is getting an annoying habit of making
>    excuses after losses, and losing at Fenway.


Sounds like if this guy was any good he'd be working for a real newspaper.  8^)

 I'm startin' to worry too Glenn..I figured if I got all over his case he'd
 snap out it, like he usually does but that sixth inning last night...I don't
 think I've ever seen him that wild...

 mike

During the rain delay last evening I happened to be on the road, listening
to the local sports talk show on WTIC 1080 (which carries Red Sox games
in CT).

Arnold Dean, long a highly knowledgable sportscaster in this area was
discussing trade possibilities for Roger.

He said that Roger has thrown a lot of pitches in his career, and he
doesn't expect him to have the longevity of Nolan Ryan.  He said that
it might not be a bad idea to test the waters.  He felt that if you
could get several quality players and a young pitching prospect, it would
be worth a trade of Clemens.

Then the subject came up of the master plan, and the basic slant on that
was that the Sox are set right now to peak in about two years, considering
their minor league talent.  Two years coincides with the time when the
team will probably be for sale.

I haven't seen much minor league talent though 8^).


Coincidentally, while the Sox were blowing it last night against the
Tribe, the BritSox wasted a masterful effort by Frank Rodriquez, who
struck out 9 in nine innings.  The BritSox posted *4* errors, made
mental errors on the basepaths, and lost the game in extra frames,
to Harrisburg, who's currently sitting atop the Eastern League.

The BritSox have won 12 of their last 17 after a miserable start, and
after a game with Harrisburg tonight, they head out on an 11 day road
trip, returning home 6/22.



If folks are still interested in a BritSox get together, it could easily
be arranged.  Tickets are ALWAYS available at the door, and the
Digital building in Rocky Hill is a convenient meeting place about
15 minutes away....


'SAw

    
> I'm startin' to worry too Glenn..I figured if I got all over his case he'd
> snap out it, like he usually does but that sixth inning last night...I don't
> think I've ever seen him that wild...
 
    He was much wilder two starts ago.  I actually took some encouragement
    out of last night, not because I think Clemens didn't blow the game,
    which he did, but because he was effective for the first time in weeks,
    except for that one big inning which followed a rain delay and a long
    inning with the Sox at bat.  Baerga nailed him, simple as that.  But I
    think at least the injury questions may have been put to rest...
    
    glenn
    

What happened in the the inning Clemens gave up 4 runs in??

The Crazy Met

    
    One was a 3 run homer dunno about the other.
    
    I remain,
    partually helpful?
    Kev
    

TCM -


IN that inning that Clemens gave up four runs, the Indians scored
four times.  Amazing coincedence.

JD

                    
    Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that you can all throw away Dickster's
    authentic souvenir collectable tickets stubs from the famous "Last Game
    Tony Pena Hit A Home Run".  Somehow the blind squirrel found another 
    acorn last night, and did it in grand style, a 400+ foot poke to
    dead centerfield.
    
    glenn
    

    I was told Joe Bflstck(sic) was pronounce Blitterstick but go ask (the
    late) Al.
    
    And re. pitching prospects, phillies have Curt Schilling of the throw
    in on the Boddicker - Brady Anderson deal and Tommie Greene received
    for three players from braves none of whom I still have ever heard of.
    So I can't tell you but it was in glob the other week (finally, I
    always wondered what braves could have got for Greene)
    
    I wouldn't object to Roger to Houston for Bagwell and 3 live arms; 
    make that Texas and Gonzalez and I'll drop it to 1 pitcher.

    Speaking of which, rumor is Brady back to Beantown for Viola or Dopson.

    I knew Roger wouldn't let me down two games in a row.  After sitting
    through two pathetic, anemic, comical displays of baseball on Friday 
    and Saturday, at least there's always hope of some decent baseball with
    Clemens, and yesterday it came on one of those classic sunny days of 
    Sunday afternoon baseball.  To top it off we made enough of a ruckus 
    during the 9th inning outfield warm-ups to prompt my bud Billy Hatcher 
    to throw us a ball in the CF bleachers (a regular ritual for Hatch in 
    games that the Sox are winning).
    
    Also ran into ex-SPROTSters Paul Yankowskas of Orioles' fandom fame on
    Friday night, and Cath on Saturday afternoon.  Cath claimed to be 
    unaware of Wednesday's get-together at the OPP, so I told her that 
    someone must be falling down on the job.  Her response was something
    about doing her laundry instead, out of spite...  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

>    Friday night, and Cath on Saturday afternoon.  Cath claimed to be 
>    unaware of Wednesday's get-together at the OPP, so I told her that 
>    someone must be falling down on the job.  Her response was something
>    about doing her laundry instead, out of spite...  ;-)
    
I believe Walt is the de facto channel to the Cathmeister.


The way I understand it is that I usually contact the folks on the
Internet, Kev contacts others, and Walt has always in the past, contacted
the Cathmeister....


'SAw    

> The way I understand it is that I usually contact the folks on the
> Internet, Kev contacts others, and Walt has always in the past, contacted
> the Cathmeister....
    
    There you go... I didn't want to mention any names, but... ;-)
    Seriously though, it sounded like she wouldn't be able to make it
    anyway, and said to make sure to let everyone know she says hi...
    
    glenn
    

>    There you go... I didn't want to mention any names, but... ;-)
>    Seriously though, it sounded like she wouldn't be able to make it
>    anyway, and said to make sure to let everyone know she says hi...
    
No Glenn, tell it like it is.  Walt is shirking his duties.

We'll have to have a little chat with him on Wednesday night   8^)    

> We'll have to have a little chat with him on Wednesday night   8^)  

Just have Walt pay the bill and he will be sure not to 
forget his duties in the future.

The Crazy Met

|> We'll have to have a little chat with him on Wednesday night   8^)  
|
|Just have Walt pay the bill and he will be sure not to 
|forget his duties in the future.

I think YOU'RE at bat on this one....  Walt can be ON DECK....8^)

re: .172

hmm, I had forgotten about that :-)

The Crazy Met

    Au contraire, I told her a LONG time ago... now if she didn't book it
    to see youze guys, that's a reflection of YOUZE guys, not me...
    
    "It's possible you told me, Maybe I was having a blonde day..." 
    	 - Cathmeiser

>    Au contraire, I told her a LONG time ago... now if she didn't book it
>    to see youze guys, that's a reflection of YOUZE guys, not me...
>    
>    "It's possible you told me, Maybe I was having a blonde day..." 
>    	 - Cathmeiser


See if we invite HER again.....8^)

    Well, she did say something about moving laundry day for you guys...
    

>
>    Well, she did say something about moving laundry day for you guys...

She just told me she'd move laundry day for ME...well, all the rest
of you too....8^)


'Saw    

    Well, she told me that first (note the timestamp)... but I don't want
    to hurt your feelings, so she moved it for 'Saw... that's fine...
    

    Heard a hot rumor last night in Worcester.  The sox told Eddie
    Riley to be ready to move.  The trade was Mo Vaughn, Scott Cooper,
    adn Ed Riley to San Diego for Sheffield and Benes.  The guy that
    told me is friends with the Riley family.  
    
    Jimbo

    I heard it was all the Sox players for Sheffield and McGriff.

Sheffield said "I've been to Boston before and never want to go
back there again"

The Crazy Met

    Who once said, "I've never been to Boston, and I ain't goin' back"?
    
    
    

    noD\, I don't know, that's why I'm asking.  Somebody must have said it.
    
    

    
    
        Oh and for those of you who watched the game last night. A funny
    line was heard to be said by a particular 1b'man who was near one of
    the dugouts.
    
        It went like this.
    
               I got it! I got it! I got it! You get it! :-)
    
    Chappy

    I don't think so, Chappy.
    
    It was more like 
    
    ...  ....  .... .... .... THUD plop
    
    And how is Kevin Maas doing these days?

    
    
       Mac are you Comparing the Yankee 3rd string 1B 2nd string DH to the
    Red sux's 1st stringers defense? Or am I reading that note wrong. 
    
    Chappy

    Sorry for asking a Yankee fan to change his train of thought mid-note.
    
    I was just wondering how Kevin "the next Mickey Mantle" Maas was doing
    these days.

    Actually, Maas isn't doing all that badly, hitting some home runs
    including a couple key ones, like the game-winner just this past
    weekend.  If I were a Yanks fan, I'd be more worried about "The Great
    Don Mattingly".  At least Maas can still reach that short Yankee
    Stadium rightfield porch with some regularity...
    
    glenn
    

    This AM, Gil Santos was describing last nights Sox-Yankee game as
    "Ugly.  That's with a capital U and two g's."  :*)
    
    Lee

    That doesn't even come close to describing the ineptitude of this team
    Lee.  What I watched last night was worse than what I saw an hour
    earlier at my son's Little League game.  Much worse.
    
    					Steve

    
    
          I don't worry about Donbo WaugaMAN. Cuz he's better than anyone
    the Sox have on their Pathetic team.
    
    
    Chappy

    I think the Yanks 3B and C could take a few lessons from Mo and Melvin.
    
    The Sox finally find some offense and Viola and company go in the tank
    in the 5th inning (of course Scott Cooper's error didn't help).

Yeah, what was THAT?


Couple of questions, since I was going back and forth between the game
and a videotape I was copying.....


	a) when and why did Clell Laverne get tossed?


	b) what the F--- happened in the fifth?


And was that pathetic in the 8th or what?


'Saw

	Intersting shot by the camera right after Viola took that shot off
	his shin.  The zoomed right in on the spot that was hit as the
	trainer was applying freeze spray.  The lump grew to the size of a 
	fist right before your eyes.


	billl

Wow.

Oh well.....

    Should be Uggly then, right?
    

    
    
    
    
          BAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHhh
    
    Chappy

        
    Hey, last night's game was nowhere near as pathetic or ug-gly as last
    Friday's.  You bad baseball aficionados (should be an SNL skit) really 
    do need to start keeping up...
    
    glenn
    

    
    > I don't worry about Donbo WaugaMAN. Cuz he's better than anyone
    > the Sox have on their Pathetic team.
    
    Whatever you say, Chap.  Don't forget to come back in September and
    brag about Donbo's 60 RBIs...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
            Only if you brag about the Sox's Pathetic last place finish
    again. But don't worry Mike Flanagan and Charlie Hough will be Lou's
    new help coming in next year.
    
    Chappy

    
    > Only if you brag about the Sox's Pathetic last place finish
    > again. But don't worry Mike Flanagan and Charlie Hough will be Lou's
    > new help coming in next year.
    
    Too cruel, Chappy.  But you don't have to convince me, I've been a
    realist about this all along.  As they say, Lou Gorman "just doesn't get
    it".  All those fans who were so happy to see the bums Lou brought in 
    in favor of players who at the very least were at one time able to play 
    this game (Boggs, Reed, Burks, etc.) are getting what they wanted.  More
    excitement, a better team attitude.  After watching these guys for a
    while, those hateable teams and players of the late '80s suddenly look
    a whole lot better.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
           Nice to know your a realist. Most of the Sox fans I work with
    are very quiet right now, after giving me this line about Dawson's
    40 dingers and Ivan's 35 SB's. I just walk by and laugh in there faces
    
    
    
    Chappy

>           Nice to know your a realist. Most of the Sox fans I work with
>    are very quiet right now, after giving me this line about Dawson's
>    40 dingers and Ivan's 35 SB's. I just walk by and laugh in there faces
    
Chappy, we've just put you in the M_Air_Brooks there/they're/their Division....


'Saw

    Chappy,
    Any Sox fan who got worked up over this group_a_has-beens early in
    the year is a Lou Gorman_merde-believing_polyanna idjit.
    
    No defense, power, speed,. Too damn bad they's wasting good pitching.
    
    When do the Pats start?
    
    MikeL
    

    	To paraphrase what we used to hear in here circa 1986-91.
    "Guess the Yankee fans consider it a successful season if they finish
    ahead of the Sox..."
    
    				/Don

>   <<< Note 88.210 by VAXMKT::ROBICHAUD "Happy100thBirthdayCrackerJacks!" >>>
    
    At least the Yanks sell Cracker Jacks at their stadium...
    

    I am not sure if Lou, given full power, could build a team.  That said,
    
    Lou Gorman simply does not call the shots for the Sox.  Harrington has
    final say with Sullivan having some unspecified input.  Result,
    management by committee.
    
    This makes it difficult for Gorman to negotiate because all of his
    "deals" beyond the Lyons type of thing have to be passed by upper mgt.
    
    One example, and this is just how I see it...  Gorman plans on a hitter
    in right field to replace adequate fielding Brunansky and chooses
    Dawson which also covers the black question, another issue complicating
    everything, with the intention of signing SD's Jackson with a trade
    already worked out.
    
    Then, Jackson wants more $money than Harrington will pay so sox have no
    speed demon in center to cover his walking wounded, senior citizen etc
    right field brigade not to speak of someone capable to simply play
    center field.
    
    Solution.  Drop Gorman since why pay Gorman dough for a flunky.  Hire
    someone from Braves, Jays, As organizations to:
    
    Trade whatever is of value => One Roger Clemons is all I can come up
    with, perhaps Cooper, Quintana.. for prospects; any two or three
    pitchers plus perhaps Russell to be included in trade bait.
    		
    Make the decision on center field and catcher; looks like decision is
    made to go with Valentin already at shortstop.  My only input here
    would be to keep Fletcher at 2nd.
    
    And look towards 95 or 96
    
    Bill

    >	To paraphrase what we used to hear in here circa 1986-91.
    > "Guess the Yankee fans consider it a successful season if they finish
    > ahead of the Sox..."
    
    Yeah, I mean the Yankees pick up Wade Boggs to help cover for Don
    Mattingly's inadequacies and it goes right to their heads...
    
    glenn
    

    I know where 95 is.  Where's 96?  It must be a East-West road.
    
    Lee

When did Gorman take over as GM?

The Crazy Met

    
    10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 DEEP BREATH.....HHHHHHHHHHHHHMPPPPPPP.
    
            RE-A few back.
    
         Wrong! Yankee fans consider it a "good season" when they finish
    ahead of the Sox. A sucessful season is when they win it all. Which a
    Sox fan wouldn't know the feeling unless your over 74!
    
          Inadequacies my Ass.
      Unless we're talking about Chicken or Adultery.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    > 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 DEEP BREATH.....HHHHHHHHHHHHHMPPPPPPP.
    
    Haw haw haw.  Admit it, Chappy, he's practically at the end of the
    road.  And five good to great seasons don't get you in the Hall of
    Fame...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
           No I believe it's about 10 bucks to get in the HOF.
    
    
    
    Chappy

    
    Which is the only way Mattingly will get in there.  Too bad it's too
    late for Munson.
    
    brews

    Munson had about as many (or maybe fewer, I forget) good years as
    Mattingly.

Although given the positions, I'd guess it would be easier
for a Munson, with good numbers (if he had lived, of course), to
make the Hall, then a Mattingly.  Seems to be too many good
first base types.

Really, Johnny Bench is really the last great catcher. Fisk
is good, but its longevity that is working for him.  

JD

    
    Fisk's longevity is reaching Roseian proportions where it may start to
    hurt him.
    
    brews

    C'mon JD, every good Red Sox fan knows Fisk was much better than
    Munson.

    -1,
    And you was just yapping in another note about LDUC's, Mac?
    
    Tsk, tsk
    MikeL
    

re: .224

Looking for consistencey from moderators?? you must be kidding!  .5 :-)

The Crazy Met

Mac -

No question.  But I do think Pudge's longevity, matched
with the dearth of good catching, helps his HOF 
chances.

JD

    
    
           Fisk couldn't hold Munsons Jock! He won't make the HOF because
    of the tragedy. But if he could have played out his whole career he
    would have been a first year inductee.
    
      
    
            " Fisk is just now getting credit for everything I have already
    done" 
           Thurman Munson    R.I.P
    
    
    Chappy

    If If If, Chappy.  As I'm sure you'd point out if any Sox fan said "If
    that ball didn't go through Buckner's legs", or "If Dent didn't hit
    that wimpy pop fly that blew into the screen".
    
    Sox finally got a W last night.  Two nights in a row scoring 7 runs --
    how about that.  Good outing out of John Dopson.

Chappy,

	Your assertion about Munson, filled with the angst and raw
	emotion that only a Yankee fan could provide, and none of the
	cold logic provided by the more objective baseball fans,
	is as full of holes as your statistics were about Wade and
	Donbo.....


hth,
'Saw

Hey, we all know Munson flied out his last at bat.

JD

    
    
           JD Your a riot!!!! Not.
    
    
         In Fisk's 20+ years. How many MVp's did he win?  Thank You!!!!!
    
    Chappy

>         In Fisk's 20+ years. How many MVp's did he win?  Thank You!!!!!
    
Yeah.  So is that supposed to prove something?

It's a typical Chappy argument -- pull on one stat, isolated from
any context whatsoever, and proclaim your hypothesis to be correct....

'Saw

    How many Super Bowls did he go to?
    

Hey for all we know, Old Thurman may have slipped into Rich Gedman
mode and never approached his 'MVP' numbers again. 

Perhaps George SteinCheeseBurger woulda messed old Thurman up, forcing
Thurman into free agency, and playing out his days in Arlington,
Lake Erie, Shea Stadium or North of Da Border....

JD

    
    
        Re JD. But we'll never know will we?
    
       Re Saw, You say you want some proof. I gave you a fact and I'm wrong
    Geez maybe I should just agree with whatever you Sox fans say. Lord
    knows your Judgement is always correct. I mean you root for a hell of a
    franchise.
    
    Chappy

    re-235 
    
    Hey Chappy its about time you started to think right. 
    FAST EDDIE
    

    
>        Re JD. But we'll never know will we?
    
      Chappy, we will know.  The day that Fisk is inducted into the Hall,
    and Munson isn't.
    
    brews

On a serious note, because I do admit to enjoying occasionally busting
on Chappy (whom I DO respect as a die hard Yankme fan),  I'll enter this.


	If you are a Thurmon Munson fan, I suggest you read the
	short story "The Night Manny Mota Broke the Record", by
	W.P. Kinsella.  It's in a collection published by Penquin
	Books called _The_Thrill_Of_The_Grass_.   It deals with
	Thurmon, and you'll like it.


hth,
'Saw

    Here's one Sox fan who thinks that Munson was better than Fisk.
    
    Mark.

    
    
        Uh another realist. That makes 2 I know. :-)
    
              Saw I too respect any Fan Sox or not that sticks with his
    team Pathetic or not.:-)
    
    
    Chappy

    
    > Here's one Sox fan who thinks that Munson was better than Fisk.
    
    Maybe as a hitter, at his peak.  Munson was an intelligent guy who got 
    what he had out of his ability, but he wasn't the defensive catcher 
    that Fisk was.  And catcher and shortstop are the most important 
    defensive positions on the field.
    
    The business about Fisk (and by extension Munson) only being considered
    great because of a decline in the quality of catchers is nonsense. 
    Catchers have never been good hitters in general and Fisk's record as a
    power-hitting backstop stacks up with anyone's, and not due to his
    longevity.  Bench was better defensively, but even Bench only has a few
    superior seasons with the bat.  Fisk goes into the HOF totally without
    shame, even if he has hung on too long.
    
    glenn
    

    
    >>If If If, Chappy.  As I'm sure you'd point out if any Sox fan said "If
    >>that ball didn't go through Buckner's legs", or "If Dent didn't hit
    >>that wimpy pop fly that blew into the screen".
    
    "IF":
    
    If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his a$$ every time he jumps
    
    If yer uncle had t_ts, you'd call him "Aunt"
    
    And so on and so forth
    
    JaKe
    

    GONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGONGGO....
    
    and counting...
    
    long gong,
    MikeL
    

	Hey, they may never loose another game.  The streak is at TWO!


	billl

    BFD.... I want them to lose lose lose!!! Then Harrington will have
    to sell and we get Sully... This franchise S*CKS bigtime....
    I'm already cheering for the Yankees.......
    
    REK

 If Sele pitches a no hitter tonight it could put Roger on the blocks....

 mike

    
    Come on Mike...maybe they would trade him to your Cleveland team for a 
    couple of 35 year olds.........come to think of it does Cleveland have
    anyone that old????
    
    
    
    Tom

that'd be great Tom. It would save the Tribe atleast 5 losses a year as
Rog usually manages to pitch 4 or 5 games against them per year. It's easier
on his 'physicee' to pitch against non-contenders....

mike

MikeC you're getting slow. I figured by now you would surely have posted
that Rog is playing in a golf tournament today while he is on the DL.

The Crazy Met

 Not surprising TCM. Rog said it only hurts when he looses, I mean pushes
 off the mound...

 ;^)

    	Roger's playing golf to stay in shape while he rehabilitates.  What
    a guy!
    
    				/Don

    Geez, lighten up, guys.  Clemens is probably just honing his game for 
    participation in some charity golfing events.  Roger Clemens, 1993
    Boston Red Sox nominee for the Roberto Clemente Sportsmanship and
    Community Service Award!
    
    glenn
    

I like the way he worked out of the 4th, when Harper hit the double and
Mo blew the double play ball.

I was on my way back from a track workout and it made mighty interesting
listening....


'SAw

Impressive.  I won't make any mention of the hype and platitudes I
heard on various broadcasts.  We know from Mac that only happens
in New York with folks like Maas.

JD

>> Impressive.  I won't make any mention of the hype and platitudes I
>> heard on various broadcasts.  We know from Mac that only happens
>> in New York with folks like Maas.


 It's a conspiracy to run bad boy Rog out of town cause he's always tellin'
 it like it is and tell the writers to go crap in their hats....

 mike

The golf tourney Rog was in yesterday was the GHO Pro-Am.  I couldn't go,
had to work.


Heard the Sox announcer come up with a great one last night.  Sele is
pitching to Pags, with men on first and third, one out.


	"Pags is a candidate to hit into a double play, if he hits
	 the ball on the ground, right at someone"


I'm saying to myself, "No sh*t, Sherlock".....


'Saw

Saw -

The GHO.  One of my favorite stories of all time comes from that
tourney..

JD

    Well?
    

    I think the Sox announcers are the worst team I've ever heard.
    
    Some of their remarks are so obvious, and their voices are terrible.
    
    Lee

    
>>    Sean McDonough is cool.  Too bad Bob has to be there with him, though.


 my guess is that Bob work for nothing.....

 mike

    Sorry, I mean the radio crew.
    
    Lee

> Impressive.  I won't make any mention of the hype and platitudes I
> heard on various broadcasts.  We know from Mac that only happens
> in New York with folks like Maas.
    
    Sometimes guys pitch well in a debut because they're lucky.  From what 
    I saw this was not one of those times.  Aaron Sele had a fantastic
    curveball working last night.  If that's the norm, and he can put it
    together with a rumored low-90 mph fastball, a changeup and maybe a
    slider, he'll be a nice starting pitcher, I think.
    
    glenn
    

    
    Actually, Maas didn't get the hype until he joined the bigs, and hit a
    bunch of homers early.  Meulins, and a host of OF's who are now all
    forgotten, but at the time were the "next Mickey Mantle," were part of
    the NY hype machine.
    
    brews

I was referring to the fellows on the radio.

I didn't find them particularly awful, it was just that one remark that 
stuck out.

Like I mean, if *I* hit the ball right at someone on the ground I'd be
a candidate for a double play -- although with my speed if I put the ball
into play ANYWHERE on the ground I'd be a candidate for a DP, even if
no one was on base 8^)

But if Carl Lewis  hits the ball on the ground right at someone he's gonna
be a candidate for a DP too.....sheesh....


'Saw

    Saw, in the first inning when Greenwell got put out at the plate after
    running thru a stop sign at 3rd, and then (can't remember who) someone
    drove in the 2nd run, the Jerry of the due says: "Joe, that out by
    Greenwell has cost the Sox a run."  NO KIDDING!!!
    
    This is a 15Watt announcer in a very bright world.
    
    Lee
    

I would take the remark as a snide crack at the Red Sox fielding ability. As
in, the only way they can turn a dp is if the ground ball is hit directly at
somebody....

I hear the range of the infield is lacking this season...

Metz

Bres -

The New York Hype Machine?  Geez I remember the Boston Hype Machine
in full gear with Glenn Hoffman, Dave Stapleton, et al...

Its the same all over.   

JD

Lee,

That's funny.  (Duh!)


Metz,

The funniest part of the whole thing was that the next pitch was hit
on the ground to Mo Vaughn, and he played it off his chest.  At that point
he got Pags at first.  

Then they come out with "If Vaughn had played that ball properly they
would have had a double play".


I'll be I could that job as well....8^)


'Saw

Glenn Hoffman and Dave Stapleton were overhyped???   Can you offer some
background?   I don't remember anything being written about Stapleton.
He came out of nowhere, won the 10th Player Award I think, then proceeded
to have five consecutive years, each worse than the previous.   Who hyped
him?  The media or the fanatics?   

> The media or the fanatics?   

same difference

The Crazy Met

Were quite a few pulp pieces about both Doug.  Worst hadda be
the Glenn Hoffman 'family' hype piece, about playing wiffleball
in the back yard, etc...

Oh yeah, I keep forgettin - if a Boston paper or fan throws
accolades at an athlete, its just good, solid fandom.  If a NY
paper does it, its hype.  

(I'm sure Doug Flutie didn't get any hype...)

JD

	Nice flattering article on the Red Sox in this weeks SI.  It said
	the Red Sox defense was like Stonehenge...

	o  real old
	o  can't move
	o  and everyone wonders why they are placed the way they are



	billl

> Were quite a few pulp pieces about both Doug.  Worst hadda be
> the Glenn Hoffman 'family' hype piece, about playing wiffleball
> in the back yard, etc...
    
    There you go, a Hall of Fame endorsement if I've ever seen one!  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

So the hype had nothing to do with baseball talent and only with "up-close-
and-personal" type fluff?    I think there's a big difference between that
kind of fluff and the stuff that came out about Jay Buhner being the next
Mickey Mantle.   

Did you have a problem with the media presenting an athlete in a positive
light based  on his off-the-field life?   I'm really trying to get a fix 
on this Boston overhype obsession you've presented over the years.  The
Boston media does not have a monopoly on it, nor did they invent it.   It
exists in every big city sports town.    If lemmings choose to ingest it
and regurgitate it back over the dinner table/air waves/etc.  who cares?
{ Sorry for the imagery that may evoke :-)}

Doug let me see if I understand JD's point and in that way explain it
to you. JD is not contending that the NY media dies not overhype players.
JD is simply saying that the Boston media does the same and that he gets
tired of hearing folks bash the NY media when the papers they read do the
same thing and they don't bitch about it.

Now, is simple enough to comprehend??

The Crazy Met

TCM =   Yep

Glenn and Doug - it was more than just "off the field" - it was
plain and simple hype.  About this .300_+ guy taking the place
by storm, etc...It used wiffleball to show how this incredible
guy had been a fine athelete since his baby days.

Heck - RIch Gedman was hyped after his first few years.

THere aren't many folks in here who have LIVED in both NY and
Boston.  My assertion is that the media is very similar in
both cities.  Except in the case of dredging up teams from
the past...

Sort of like how its boston folks who keep talking about the
early Knicks being hyped as the next dynasty - when we know
it was just more bile coming from the cigar sucker.

JD

    
> Doug let me see if I understand JD's point and in that way explain it
> to you. JD is not contending that the NY media dies not overhype players.
> JD is simply saying that the Boston media does the same and that he gets
> tired of hearing folks bash the NY media when the papers they read do the
> same thing and they don't bitch about it.
    
    I guess I missed the NY-media bash segue to JD's "non-mention" of the
    media hype and platitudes heaped on Aaron Sele.  Hell, right now by
    just about everyone's admission (*especially* the media's, and
    *especially* concerning the Red Sox) the Boston sports scene is at an 
    all-time low but if there's any kind of positive commentary whatsoever
    anywhere at any time we can rest assured that our faithful watchdog 
    will be there to pick up on it.  A job well done, JD!  ;-)
    
    glenn
     

But Glenn - my comment was to Mac - the one who is ALWAYS pointing
out NY hype.  

You just did yer valiant charger thang again!  

JD

> You just did yer valiant charger thang again!  

Impossible. Chivalry IS DEAD!

The Crazy Met

Mac,

you just accept the stuff as gospel, so of course you 
don't see the hype.

   I'm forever reading in here (from one particualr source) about Boston
   media hype blah, blah blah... But when asked for evidence all I ever
   get is stuff like this:

>> Were quite a few pulp pieces about both Doug.  Worst hadda be
>> the Glenn Hoffman 'family' hype piece, about playing wiffleball
>> in the back yard, etc...

   If that's the best you can come up then it must be that you have an
   axe to grind because that don't even compare to the hype when the Knicks 
   took two from the Bulls. That's not to say that there isn't any media 
   hype in Boston I just think you're overly overly (throw in another overly)
   sensitive to it.

Tomjmy

NO, you are wrong.  ALl I say is that there is media hype in both
Boston and New York.  Most of the Boston fains in here refuse
to admit the possibility.  C'mon man, remember the hype when
the Celtics trashed the Lakers in the playoffs one year (and
the GLobe/Herald/TV stories about 'Kareem is done') - that's the
type of thing that is shrugged off by bostonians, but if NY
does it - its MEDIA HYPE>

I don't deny media hype in NY.  I don't deny it in Boston either.


Actually, the axe to grind always falls squarely in the hands of
Bostonians.  Also, I always noticed how LA was another hype
place.  Try to tell me Lawwy Biwd wasn't overly hyped in this
town Tommy.   More than Patrick Ewing.

JD

No Mac - that's what I say.  It's folks like you who go
through denial that have the problems with it.  An article
about Kevin Maas is hype.  An article about Kevin Morton is
good journalism.

JD

    Again, seems to me that 99.9% of this hot air about "hype" is emanating
    from one source.  But if push came to shove and we really had to make 
    a call on this ridiculous subject, I'd still have to rate New York the
    clear winner.  Any city and its media that sincerely believed that the 
    New York Mets were a division title contender (don't deny it; you know 
    who you are!) after what they saw last year from that broken-down
    sorry-assed ballclub that did nothing but get a year older in the 
    off-season just can't be topped.  I even recall TCM telling me that 
    anyone who believed that the Yankees would be better than the Mets 
    this year (I did, because it was beyond obvious) had to be certifiably 
    insane (and the only reason for that distinction between the teams 
    inside New York is that the Mets clearly outnumbered the Yanks in 
    aging, overpaid, overhyped "stars" coming into the season).  There may 
    have been a very few in Boston who had the wool pulled over their eyes 
    about a similarly but still nowhere near as sorry team like the Red Sox 
    (the vast majority including most of the media saw what was going on), 
    but, sorry, if you can hype the stinking 1993 New York Mets and get 
    people to believe in them, you can hype anything!
    
    glenn
     

    yabbut the NY media was not the only one that chose the Mets to contend
    in 1993.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    > yabbut the NY media was not the only one that chose the Mets to contend
    > in 1993.
    
    I certainly didn't see such a prediction in any of the reputable 
    national publications, like Mazeroski, BB Weekly, etc.  But I was 
    informed by the NYMETS notesfile that many if not *most* in the NY 
    media were picking the Mets to win it, not just "contend".  What a 
    bunch of dupes.  Let's face it, the tabloid tradition of 
    front-running, then scapegoating, permeates the city of NY to a far 
    greater degree than Boston.  I think this is fairly obvious, but I 
    anxiously await JD telling me that I'm full of it, and offering the 
    Glenn Hoffman youth wiffle-ball champion story as proof.  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Just like the Boston media expected the Red Sox to compete in 1992.

The Crazy Met

                
> Just like the Boston media expected the Red Sox to compete in 1992.
    
    Maybe marginally, but not to win it.  I wouldn't hold my breath waiting
    for the next time the Boston media hypes a team capable of playing .300
    baseball (perhaps a modern-day watermark for futility from an
    established, non-expansion team?) as a division *favorite*.  The Boston
    media is far more critical, especially of the Red Sox, than that.
    
    glenn
    

And the NY media is on a bashing spree of the Mets; they haven't knocked the 
bat boys or the ball girls yet, but I'm sure they'll get to it.
The Boston media is no better than the NY one and has an incredible 
provincial outlook as well.

The Crazy Met

Glenn -

YOu are right.  The Boston papers, including the
clearly accurate Boston Herald, never hype, never
speculate.  ONly NY does.  Did I think the Mets
could compete - yes, with these caveats - 1. the NL
East
looked fairly weak, with the Bucs losing more players,
and every team having fairly obvious weaknesses, and
2. the hope that some of the injured players like
HoJo and Saberhagen, Franco, etc., would have
decent years.

Instead, it never happened.

I find it interesting that you and the rest of your
cabal call me biased, yet never see anything wrong
with Boston, just NY.  Like I said, I lived both
places, and speak from experience.  I don't deny
NY hypes.  Greg Jeffries was a perfect example of
too much hype.  

I remember every year when I was school the GLobe
would pick the Pats to win the AFC, da Broons to
win it, the Sox to winit.  That, of course wasn't
hype.  

Hey, I'll take the word of a Penns. native who
lives in New Hampshire to know all about New York
and Boston - two places I don't think you've ever
even lived...

JD

       JD, you only  seem to deal in absolutes. It's "always" or "never"
      or "every" or "not one". I have yet to see one person say the Boston
      media doesn't hype. Not one. (how's that for an absolute) Care to
      point out to me where someone did? The issue, as I see it, is that 
      there's much more hype in New York. To me, that would seem to be a 
      given, if only because there's much more media. Is it your assertion
      that there is *less* media hype in New York than in Boston?

    
    --The Three Stages of a JD LDUC--
    
    Stage I     Yes I do. No you don't.  Yes I do. No you don't.  
                Yes I do. No you don't.  Yes I do. No you don't.
                Yes I do. No you don't.  Yes I do. No you don't.
    
    Stage II    I was/lived there/did that.  It wasn't that way.
    
    
    Stage III   Uh-oh, I'm losing.  Put in a sarcastic reply agreeing with 
                the adversary.

Tommy

Nope, not my assertion.  IN fact, I agree with your
more hype due to more media.  Face it, NY is what,
10 times larger than Boston - so you'll get a more
of everything.  But percentage wise, I feel that 
it is fairly close.

And Tommy, it certainly seems that over the years,
folks haven't felt Boston hypes anyone or anything.

Now, I caint talk about the Clinton Gazette or
those other papers from your home town area...

JD

Bruce -

Stick to soccer, or backing up Mikey.

JD

> Hey, I'll take the word of a Penns. native who
> lives in New Hampshire to know all about New York
> and Boston - two places I don't think you've ever
> even lived...
    
    Again, I'm relying on my sources such as the YANKEE and NYMETS files
    who quite often report that there is an *extreme* frontrunning,
    hype-driven media bias between the tabloids and WFAN that approaches
    sickening levels.  Stuff like rabid attention being paid to the teams
    at the beginning of the season only to be followed by total abandonment.  
    One Yankees' fan has even been insisting that the absolutely terrific
    performance of the Yankee supersubs (who I've defended) in keeping 
    that team in very serious contention is insufficient because "New York 
    demands stars".  I don't even have to write my own material!  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

The Mets file?  Where?  Hardly been anything in there.

Lots of criticism.

Yankee file - never been in it, neverwill

Then again Glenn, there are some in the Red Sox file
who spout also.  
JD

    
     re Brews
    
    Pretty damn funny. First time I've laughed out loud reading this conf-
    erence in awhile.
    
    
    re Glenn and JD
    
    One need only look at the extreme (and it was EXTREME) media hype in NY
    before the Knicks-Bulls series to get a classic example. No way there's
    that much hype in Boston before a *conference* championship series.

Tommy -

When Bird the Savior came to town, there was EXTREME
hype in the Boston Media.  ALong with foaming of
the mouth by the faithful.  

Twas amazing.

And there was national hype over the Knicks/Bulls.

JD

> Then again Glenn, there are some in the Red Sox file
> who spout also.  
    
    I understand that.  And in the media, etc.  The only reason I got into
    this is that I got tired after about three straight days of being fed
    glaring examples of Boston hype, and because I knew it'd be fun.
    
    glenn
    

>>Hey, I'll take the word of a Penns. native who
>>lives in New Hampshire to know all about New York
>>and Boston - two places I don't think you've ever
>>even lived...


	Now why go draggin' me into this LDUC????



	billl

               

  >> When Bird the Savior came to town, there was EXTREME
  >> hype in the Boston Media.  ALong with foaming of
  >> the mouth by the faithful.  

      Only because he did something spectacular every night and delivered
      three titles. Unfortunately, New York hasn't had a star of equal mag-
      nitude in a long time so we can only imagine what the hype would have
      been like for a Lakers-Knicks series back in the '80s. If the hype for
      the Bulls-Knicks series for just the conference championship is any indi-
      cation, Armegeddon wouldn't get as much press.

   >> And there was national hype over the Knicks/Bulls.

      I really didn't see any other than the networks that were covering the 
      games. I did see front page stories in every New York paper with three
      inch headlines. I guess it was a pretty big deal down there.

    It's ALWAYS been my contention that Boston papers over-hype.  I can't
    compare it to NY papers, or compare any of the other media.  I'll also
    state that I think most of the Boston-based radio sport shows
    over-hype, primarily just after a trade, or the beginning of a season,
    or when the active team wins 3 in a row.
    
    Conversely, I also think that they are overly critical when things are
    going bad.  For whatever reason, they seem to want perfection, and
    inning by inning, not just game by game.
    
    This has resulted in most of the callers to radio shows thinking of
    themselves as the only people on the earth who have all the answers, or
    that they are united with every single sports fan in N.E. in hating Lou
    Gorman, or the coach/GM/owner of any of the local teams (Save big Red).
    Parcells is a God, and he hasn't even fielded a team yet.  If the Pats
    lose 4 or 5 in a row, he'll be dammed until he wins a SB.  Not just get
    to the SB, but winning it.
    
    I'm sad that so many people seem to take sprots so seriously.  Like, it
    isn't any fun unless we win the damn World Championship.  
    
    I wonder if, down South, Unser fans hate Andretti, and vice-versa.  Is
    auto racing taking so seriously?
    
    Lee, who used to just enjoy watching professionals play

         
    > It's ALWAYS been my contention that Boston papers over-hype.  I can't
    > compare it to NY papers, or compare any of the other media.  I'll also
    > state that I think most of the Boston-based radio sport shows
    > over-hype, primarily just after a trade, or the beginning of a season,
    > or when the active team wins 3 in a row.
    
    It doesn't help when the particular radio station owns the rights to
    the team's broadcasts.  Then quite realistically it becomes the show 
    host's job to hype.  WRKO still hasn't given up on the Red Sox, and 
    some of the apologists they have over there are constantly working 
    serious overtime trying to convince people that things are okay 
    with the Sox, they're still in it and they're just working through 
    some problems, etc.  I was laughing out loud the other night when on 
    the pre-game program the host and his guest "expert" (Joe Guiliotti,
    who has been at the Red Sox' banquet trough far too long, imo) were 
    insisting that the physical problems that Andre Dawson is having 
    could have happened to *anyone*, and were simply the result of a freak 
    accident caused by stepping on first base the wrong way in spring 
    training.  Serious team-fed spin control, and a total joke at that.
    
    > I'm sad that so many people seem to take sprots so seriously.  Like, it
    > isn't any fun unless we win the damn World Championship.  
    
    I've never been a big "championship or nothing" guy.  If I were, the
    Red Sox wouldn't be my primary Boston rooting interest.  However, it is
    frustrating as hell to see the same mistakes committed again and again 
    and then re-packaged as something new and different, when I (personally) 
    would be satisfied to see a young, homegrown, re-built team for a
    change, even if they are losing (which is where we come back to the at
    least invigorating Aaron Sele "hype", I guess).  To that extent, because 
    I invest a fair amount of time and money in taking in the games (which I 
    still generally enjoy), I do "take it seriously".  Not enough to call 
    into talk radio, though.  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Well, I hate to interrupt this amazing debate over the state of the
Fourth Estate, but did anyone happen to notice that the Red Sox swept the
Tigers over the weekend?

All of a sudden the Sox found some offense, and even made up for Viola's
poor pitching.

I mean, even Hesketh looked good.

I forget which sportscaster is was but someone called them the "Sybil" Sox
the other evening......


'Saw

    
    	/Don for the HypeMachine

    Is it any coincidence that the Red S*cks start winning when Roger "God"
    Clemens is placed on the DL????
    
    REK
    
    

>    Is it any coincidence that the Red S*cks start winning when Roger "God"
>    Clemens is placed on the DL????
    
You know, REK, there could be something to that.

Perhaps the team had gotten a bit lazy, depending on Roger for too much.
When he went out with the injury, psychologically they probably dug down
a little deeper and subconsciously reached a new level.

I've seen stuff like that happen before with teams I've been on -- the star
is out, folks are a little worried, but they start to make up for it, and
realize they can do it without the star, and momentum builds....


'Saw    
    

    Is it a coincedence that the teams they beat had losing streaks going
    into it?  I don't know, it's a glimmer of hope, but wait until they
    play someone who's not in a slump...
    

        <<< Note 88.314 by CAMONE::WAY "Nobles of the Mystic Shrine" >>>

>>>    Is it any coincidence that the Red S*cks start winning when Roger "God"
>>>    Clemens is placed on the DL????
    
>> You know, REK, there could be something to that.

>> Perhaps the team had gotten a bit lazy, depending on Roger for too much.
>> When he went out with the injury, psychologically they probably dug down
>> a little deeper and subconsciously reached a new level.

>> I've seen stuff like that happen before with teams I've been on -- the star
>> is out, folks are a little worried, but they start to make up for it, and
>> realize they can do it without the star, and momentum builds....


 or maybe Wade was right and Rog is the clubhouse problem with his ego???

 probably just a league conspiracy to fill the sits for the rest of the
 year. A little hot streak before the break to sell out the second half...

 ;^)
     
    

    
    > Is it a coincedence that the teams they beat had losing streaks going
    > into it?
    
    Not at all.  Six in a row does not undo the damage of 16 out of 19,
    unfortunately.  But as I told the Sawmain at least this team is to be
    commended for not giving up.  They're still going to lose more than
    they win but there is *some* effort there...
    
    glenn
    

    Glenn, make that 7 in a row... Mil best pitcher has been pushed back
    and won't face the Sox. Some rookie is going to start tomorrow's game..
    THis stinks... I want them in LAST PLACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    REK

    	MikeC, great news!  There's a restaurant in Warwick R.I. called
    "ROGER CLEMENS SPORTS WORLD", and you know who is associated with it. 
    Give me a call when you're free and we'll do lunch there.
    
    				/Don

>    	MikeC, great news!  There's a restaurant in Warwick R.I. called
>    "ROGER CLEMENS SPORTS WORLD", and you know who is associated with it. 
>    Give me a call when you're free and we'll do lunch there.
    
 
why not the next ::Sprots get together....pick a night the soxs have off
and much like my hero "Saw knock Kelly Stouffer on his butt maybe I can
belt "his highness"....

;^)

|>    	MikeC, great news!  There's a restaurant in Warwick R.I. called
|>    "ROGER CLEMENS SPORTS WORLD", and you know who is associated with it. 
|>    Give me a call when you're free and we'll do lunch there.
|    
| 
|why not the next ::Sprots get together....pick a night the soxs have off
|and much like my hero "Saw knock Kelly Stouffer on his butt maybe I can
|belt "his highness"....

Hmmmm.....

There was a Bobby Valentine's restaurant like that in the next town
over from Newport.  Ate there after rugby lasted year.    I wonder
if Rog bought into that "franchise"


Mike, I'd love to be there when you knock Rog on his butt.  Can I
bring my camera?  8^)


'Saw

    	You know, when one looks at the talent on this team one might be
    tempted to say they're overachieving, but I know that JD can point out
    the plethora of All Stars on the Slobs.
    
    				/Don

Well /Slash, if pushed, I could point to God Clemens, ex-God Viola, phenom (as
I've heard him called...) Sele, Big Mo, etc...

But I've been advocating the Sox clean house and build the dang team and take
the lumps of being truly bad for a few years.  All I fear is that the Sox
will pull a Broons - get hot long enough to make them respectable, enabling
many fans to be able to do the "in the last 30 years, the Sox have blah blah",
for Lou Gorman to say "Wewerecloselastyearandwithafewbreakswecanbreakthroughandwherecouldwe
playbarrybondsormarkmagwireanyway" and enable them to raise ticket prices...

JD

    Bingo on yo' 2nd paragraph there JD
    
    MikeL
    

    I agree with the second paragraph too, but I'd point out that the Red
    Sox have generally not been able to get away with the annual ticket
    price increases when they don't have sucessful seasons on the field.  
    When I went in for season tickets in 1988 the day-of-game price of 
    bleacher tickets that we always bought were $6, and now I'm paying $7 
    (there did use to be a discount for some advance sales).  Between the 
    bleachers and the grandstand seats you're talking about the majority of 
    the park where prices have stayed flat.  Unless the Red Sox really keep 
    it up and do much better than finish .500, I expect that there will be 
    no large increase in the demand for tickets at the current price 
    (attendance is down slightly this year).  I'm not sure how the Bruins 
    and Celtics have been able to maintain the annual healthy increases,
    win, lose, or draw.  Smaller but *very* loyal fan base, I suppose...
    
    glenn
    

    Eddie Adlebrain did have one idea which I agree upon and that is ..
    	To maintain the high fees paid (at least by network tv, potentially
    by cable/pay-per) baseball needs to have ballparks filled with fans and
    preferably enthusiastic (spell that LOUD) ones.  NBA, NCAA and usually
    pro-football (Phoenix is one very serious exception) usually don't have
    that problem.
    
    	This runs counter to the method by which the owners make their
    individual profits: gate receipts (they spend tv revenues on salaries).
    
    Possible result is studio audiences ala boxing where promoters with a
    payperview fight with no gate will fill the arena with freebies just to
    have the lively crowd as background since the $bucks from gate is a
    pittance visavis cable.
    
    	Question is whether TV people can convince greedy owners to keep
    ticket prices, at least for average and below seats, down to the level
    of demand.

    Best West Coast swing since 1984.

    
    Red Sox' team ERA is now 3.52.  No other AL team is below 4.00!  With
    Clemens coming back, this could get interesting if the Sox can maintain
    even average run support (I have my doubts that this will happen
    throughout the second half without at least one acquisition of a solid 
    bat).  Three weeks ago the Sox were 13 back; now they're just 3 back, 
    2 in the loss column (but still in 5th place, only 3 games above .500).  
    At that time even if you'd predicted the 15-4 run, you'd (at least I
    did) have figured they'd still be 8-10 games back, and headed nowhere.  
    The Blue Jays' recent collapse is making everyone else very happy 
    heading into the All-Star break.
    
    It's a good thing no one got too caught up in all that Aaron Sele
    hype.  Kid looks like he hardly belongs in AAA, much less the big 
    leagues.  Right.
    
    glenn
    

It'll be interesting to see the effect of his Highness on the clubhouse after
the break...If he pitches a couple if stinkers and the team takes the pipe
watch out below!!!!!!!

;^)

re: last few

what I love/hate about the Red Sox.

The Crazy Met

    
> re: last few
> 
> what I love/hate about the Red Sox.
    

Hope springs eternal and unrealistic expectations all rolled up in one.

The Crazy Met

> Hope springs eternal and unrealistic expectations all rolled up in one.
    
    Nope (I thought that's what you meant).  The Red Sox are a whopping 3
    games over .500.  The only problem with being a streaky team is that 
    a 15-4 run is immediately preceded by an even more dramatic 3-16 
    stretch.  I'm only pointing out the facts.  The Red Sox are three
    games back in what has become a pigpile of mediocrity (which is what
    most of baseball has become, excepting the NL West).  The pitching has 
    been terrific, as it has been for the most part since 1990.  It would
    not be unrealistic for a team that had a couple more consistent hitters
    to pull this thing out.  However, those extra hitters are at this
    moment and until further notice nowhere to be seen.
    
    glenn
      

    	Hey Craze, at least this beats being mathematically eliminated by
    Memorial Day.
    
    				/Don

    /er no argument there; of course you completely ignore my point, but
    then I expect that of Red Sox fans.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    > /er no argument there; of course you completely ignore my point, but
    > then I expect that of Red Sox fans.
    
    If we could figure out what your point is, then we could proceed to
    ignore it.  I posted a completely factual and not overly optimistic
    synopsis of the Red Sox' current situation, as I have all season long,
    for better or worse.  Mike Childs followed it up with a prediction 
    that Roger Clemens would drag the team into the toilet, and the next 
    thing you know Red Sox fans once again stand accused as mindless 
    blathering brainwashed idiots.
    
    glenn
    

Not a prediction Glenn, just a hope.....

;^)    

if it happens though you know Kimball and gang will be all over Rog...

not me of course....

mike

Glenn,

See 88.328

The Crazy Met

    OK you have heard it here, please send messages to Mike Childs
    account while he is on vacation. Mike wants to become the all-time
    message receiver while on vacation so he can enter into the Guenniss
    book of records.... :-}

    REK

What I claimed applies to the Red Sox more than any other team
I can think of - in fact I'm not sure anything else comes close. Wasn't
even trashing anyone over it, unless stating that what drives my like/distaste
for a team qualifies as trashing.

The Crazy Met

    I've been trying to modify my RCASO decoder ring to figure out what the
    hell TCM is talking about, but haven't had any luck.  How about you,
    Glenn?

    
    > I've been trying to modify my RCASO decoder ring to figure out what the
    > hell TCM is talking about, but haven't had any luck.  How about you,
    > Glenn?
    
    As /Don so correctly pointed out, TCM took your facetious byline of
    "Pennant Fever Grips Hub" as a serious indication that a World
    Championship is just around the corner.  As anyone who has lived in or
    around Boston should know, the phrase "Pennant Fever Grips Hub" is
    always used as a sarcastic rejoinder to the latest illusory success of
    the Olde Towne Team.  That's always the danger with satire.  Your 
    mistake, Mac, was in not including the obligatory references to 1948, 
    1949, 1974, 1978, etc.  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Glenn -

While it may not have 'gripped' the hub - pennant fever - or the thoughts of the 
Sox staying in the race are very evident.  Even in the checkoutline at
Alexander's the bag boys were talking about hte Sox being 3 games out, with
ROGER about to come back....

While you, (and I), may have serious reservations about jumping for joy about
the Sox latest swing in fortunes, the last few weeks have kindled quite  a few
'We can win this thing' fires.   

And its natural.

JD

PS:  Note for MAC - this is not a criticism.  So chill out.

    
> While you, (and I), may have serious reservations about jumping for joy about
> the Sox latest swing in fortunes, the last few weeks have kindled quite a few
> 'We can win this thing' fires.   
> 
> And its natural.
    
    Yes, I agree!  There *should be* some excitement heading into the
    second half.  We shouldn't always be so pessimistic.  At least there's 
    hope.  I'm just working to forestall the inevitable friendly bashing
    that would come with a pennant race.  Sometimes you can't win.  If you
    get excited, you're a gullible parochial-yokel.  If you don't, you're
    just another jaded old Red Sox fan.  You could probably just not care
    until the playoffs start (which *does* happen in some cities), but
    that's not being a real baseball fan either.  It's a tough battle... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

Glenn -

As I've said before (maybe in RED_SOX) is that I fear this 'pennant' race the
Sox find themselves in will keep Lou from making real changes, or I 
shudder, trade away a good prospect for anothe Larry Anderson type guy...

JD

    glenn and JD,
    
    Agreed agreed. Maybe I'm jaded, but -1 sums up my fear. I am excited
    for the Sox and it is fun to be in a pennant race, even it is mainly
    through others' ineptitude and fortuitous pitching and timely slugging
    by the Sox during this last stretch.
    
    I wish Lou and Harrington had some bollocks and got that extra bat and
    glove for the OF. Hail look at the daid wood ( no pun ) they've got
    in Q, Calderon, and sometimes Dawson and they're luckily 3 games out.
    Thank God for pitching (all this without Aighaid). Why now all lou
    will have to say is "
    LookatalltherestthatBankheadMelendezandHeskethhavegotten.They'llreallybe
    abighelpinthesecondhalf." 
    
    MikeL
    

thanks JD for helping out; I guess being a Red Sox fan for too long addles(sp?)
some folks minds :-)

The Crazy Met

    
> thanks JD for helping out; I guess being a Red Sox fan for too long addles(sp?)
> some folks minds :-)
    
    So what you love/hate about the Red Sox is the natural act of a couple
    grocery boys talking pennant race?  What do they do in New York?  ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    Nah,
    Don't lissen ta JD, glenn. He's a Bosox fan alright, jest cain't
    stand the Boston fans. Now just put the Red Sox in New Yuck and he'd
    be giddy. As for TCM, he's in denial. Ny-uck media and fans never
    go over the edge in touting their teams, never.
    
    MikeL
     

    I'm so excited,
    
    And I just cain't hide it!
    
    I'm about to lose control,
    
    And I think I like it!
    
    Go Sox!  What A Team!!

MikeL

What planet did you just land from???? :-)

The Crazy Met

    SI has a classic edition this week.  Our Sox are mentioned thruout as
    1/2 dozen writers are asked for their greatest games and 78 playoff,
    game 6 are mentioned.  Teddy Ballgame is featured in several places.
    
    Rather entertaining issue as a whole.  Don't know if that 40s,50s
    stuff is interesting to you younger folks except one graphic shows
    46-51 and all the pennant races which were decided on last day (nl
    49,50) or playoff (nl 46,51;al 48) leaving only 47 with two tight races
    and one of the great world series of all time
    (lavagetto,gionfriddo,owens-heinrich).
    
    magazine available if anyone interested
    
    b

    > SI has a classic edition this week.  Our Sox are mentioned thruout as
    > 1/2 dozen writers are asked for their greatest games and 78 playoff,
    > game 6 are mentioned.  Teddy Ballgame is featured in several places.
    
    Yes, an excellent edition from start to finish.  The kind of stuff I
    could read *every* week (in-depth stuff, not just the same old stories
    rehashed as in many nostalgia publications).
    
    The other Red Sox game that was featured as the "best ever" was the
    1986 ALCS Game 5.  But for what it's worth, of the three listed, I
    agree wholeheartedly with Peter Gammons (did he draw the short straw on
    this assignment?) that the *losing* effort in the 1978 one-game playoff 
    with the Yankees was the greatest game of the three.  So much on the 
    line in that one, and tension and twists and turns from start to finish, 
    not just picking up near the end as in the other two games.
    
    glenn
    

    Ditto. A marvelous edition on SI. If you don't subscribe and want to
    read it send me mail and I'll send it to you.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    
    			GREENWELL BEANED!
    
    		HEAD XRAYS TAKEN, NOTHING FOUND!
    
    Lee

    Now what Kruk did at the All Star game doesn't look quite so silly.
    
    Dennis Faust
    

    
    Hey, I ran into Steve Diggins (aka Digger) at Fenway Friday night.  He
    passes along his regards.  I informed him that he's a fuddy-duddy, and
    he returned my compliment in the genteel spirit that it was offered.
    
    This past weekend was easily the best I've experienced at the ballyard
    in a few years, probably since Dwight Evans hit back-to-back game-
    winning homers against the Orioles one weekend in 1990.  Friday night I
    took my daughter down on the spur of the moment (Roger called), I stood
    on a street corner begging for a ticket, a guy handed me one for
    nothing so I threw my girl over my shoulder and walked in.  Lower
    grandstand, Section 24, just off home plate on the third-base side!  
    Roger had his good stuff back; Sox win, Sox win.
    
    Saturday and Sunday were the comeback games, fueled by Seattle mistakes
    (by the likes of the near-flawless Omar Vizquel, no less!).  More two-out
    ugly squib and bloop clutch hits than you can imagine (how long can
    this continue?).  Yesterday MikeL, his lovely wife and I took in the
    classic.  Down 6-1 in the 7th, Randy Johnson is cruising right along, 
    but he's had enough and has to come out.  Dawson delivers the two-out
    bases-loaded double in the 7th, clearing the sacks with the help of 
    inexperienced Marc Newfield in left.  Three more in the 8th, including 
    Billy Hatcher's two-out ground single up the middle to win it, 7-6.  For 
    the second straight day heading into the 9th only one run down, after the 
    third out is recorded in the bottom of the 8th Junior Griffey turns 
    around and waves farewell to the bleacher crowd, saying it's been fun.  
    And indeed it was!  
    
    glenn
    

    Lou Piniella outmanaged yesterday.  2nd and 3rd, two out, up by a run.
    He pitches to Billy Hatcher with Luis Rivera on deck?!?!?!?!?!?!?  The
    Sox had no one left to pinch-hit, I don't think.  Hatcher getrs the
    game-winning hit, Rivera strikes out.  Sox win, Sox win.
    
    NAZZ

    Nazz,
    	I suspect there was a little bit of ego involved here what with
    Hatcher formerly playing for Cinci and being traded here - read "not
    good enought to play for Lou".
    
    	I guess that Piniella was not about to hear "Piniella fears
    Hatcher" stuff.  I have seen that type of ego thing quite a bit in
    sports.  In fact there used to be a lot if it right on this team; it's
    nice to see Sox benefiting from it.
    
    	That is also why, barring injury, Sox must be very careful
    tampering with this team.  I along with many have cast doubts about
    Hatcher's ability to play top centerfield and especially cover for
    weaknesses in left and right.  But if he is continueing to play this
    kind of ball and hit then leave the tinkering to the off-season.
    
    	Except for possibly a trade involving right hand pitching for
    another lefthander.  Mike Tomlin of Pitt would be fine.
    
    b

    
    After the game, Piniella said something about Rivera "swinging a good
    bat lately".  Huh?  He had just been activated after spending most of 
    the season either in the trainer's room or picking splinters out of his
    butt.  Sure, he'd had one hit in the game, but so what; even Tony
    Pena's average isn't .000.  Hobson says he would have pinch-hit Mo 
    Vaughn for Rivera anyway, but from the M's' end I'd still rather have 
    the Charlton-Vaughn matchup than Charlton-Hatcher.  The decision was 
    pretty much inexplicable, unless Piniella was severely in doubt of 
    Charlton's ability to throw a strike, and in deference to his player 
    just couldn't say so. 
    
    glenn
    

    One point on the beaning.  I only saw a replay hightlight on espn, no
    slo mo.  But, Greenwell never left his feet.  Not that it would have
    avoided the ball but it is (formerly) standard practice to throw the
    feet up in the air when the ball comes at the head.
    
    	My only point in mentioning this is that with the bean ball
    (deliberate) being passe is it possible that avoiding the bean ball has
    become a lost art.  Only after this incident did it come to me that I
    very seldom see batters laying in the dirt these days and most of the
    issues and brawls are around balls striking arms and hands.
    
    	Baseball has truly come a long way.  Yaz was decked twice in '78 at
    bat before delivering a cluth hit.  And I don't think we need to bring
    bat beanballs and "dustings", please, don't get me wrong.
    
    b

Why was Johnson taken out of the game??

The Crazy Met

    The Globe said that Johnson's arm and back stiffened.
    
    Mike

From the replay I saw, Greenwell didn't have a chance to get down.  That
was like a laser shot.

Pitching inside is a lost art.

Was nice to see Mike come back and hit a triple first time up lasted night....


'Saw

    I read after posting that bleacher background made it very difficult to
    see.
    
    But what is a lost art is flipping those legs up to bring the head
    down.
    
    Of course what is mindbending is the stories of maglie and others, to
    compensate for the mastery of the above art used to avoid beanings,
    started pitching behind the head and down so that the batter using the
    flip technique would have his head move down and into the ball.
    
    Mays in turn perfected the ability to spot that type of beanball and
    simply not move at all.
    
    This was not, and I don't blame anyone for not believing me, simply an
    attempt to control the inside of the plate as Clemons does today, but
    premeditated attempt to murder.  Those pitchers were trying to hit the
    aaron's,robinsons and mays' in the head to get them out of there.
    
    b

    So who's pitchin' for us tonight?  Who are we playing?  Will we make it
    21/26???
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    The Sox have about the same chance of winning the WS this year as Kev
    Farley does of dunking over Shaq.
    
    =Bob=

    > So who's pitchin' for us tonight?  Who are we playing?  Will we make it
    > 21/26???
    
    The game's almost over.  Sox up 4-1 in the bottom of the eighth.  
    Clemens 8 IP, 6 H, 1 R, 1 ER, 0 BB, 7 K; only three hits after the 
    first.  Still the best; let's hope Mike Childs stays on vacation for a
    while longer...  
    
    glenn
    

    It's over, Sox win 4-1; Russell closes it out 1-2-3 in the ninth.  
    Orioles losing by one in the 8th; Yankees losing by five in the 8th; 
    Tigers losing by five in the 6th.
    
    glenn
    

Sox would be 1/2 game out if all those scores remained as is and Jays lost
today??

The Crazy Met

    
>>Pitching inside is a lost art.
  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    What's so lost about it.  Lots of guys pitch good in the Astrodome, the
    Kingdome, the Skydome, etc.
    
    JaKe
    

    > Sox 1/2 game out
    
    See what happens when I climb aboard the bandwagon?
    
    BTW, if anybody heads Atlanta-way lemme know, cause I_gots season tix
    myself to the Bravo's.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    > BTW, if anybody heads Atlanta-way lemme know, cause I_gots season tix
    > myself to the Bravo's.
    
    You didn't get burned out?  Good to see that if it had to happen it was
    in the LUXURY BOXES (no one hurt, of course, thank god).  Now if someone 
    can blow that infernal Fenway 600 Club to kingdom come...
    
    glenn
    

    Alright!!
    
    Go Sox!  Enjoy it for all its worth gang.. jeez, one month ago
    I figured they'd double that 13 out and be 26 out at the end. Go
    figure.
    
    Yo glenn! What's your record this year fer games attended?
    I's 2-0! 
    
    MikeL
    

    
    >>You didn't get burned out?  Good to see that if it had to happen it was
    >>in the LUXURY BOXES (no one hurt, of course, thank god).  Now if someone 
    
    Twas probably some Execs pulled the curtain to block the light from
    coming in, and then had a fart lighting contest and set the curtain
    ablaze that got the fire going in Atlanta.
    
    
    Schnortt Schitt Schlepps
    
    JaKe
    

    
    > Yo glenn! What's your record this year fer games attended?
    
    13-4.  They're actually 14-2 on the weekend plan; I missed a couple.  
    They're making up for last year's abysmal weekend home record...
    
    glenn
    

    glenn,
    how's the rest of the ALEast contenders' pitching corps stack up agin
    the Bosox? I know everyone says that the Red Sox have the best, but
    cain you provide a_analysis of the contendahs, time permitting?
    
    Methinks Toronto is in o-so shape start-wise with Key and Cone gone
    coupled with the fact that Morris and Stewart( hopefully) are over the
    hill. I like the Yanks starters even if Abbott is underachieving.
    Who the O's got besides Musina that is good?
    
    Thanks,
    MikeL
    

    
    
      The Sox are front page news in today's Globe. Folks are gushing
     over them over in the RED_SOX conference. Every radio and tv station 
     is talking "Pennant Fever Grips Hub!". Personally, I still ain't
     convinced that there won't be a Pope Roscoe before there'll be 
     a World Series championship flag in Boston.

    
    Jest to toss a few more twigs into this bonfire, I understand that the
    top 4 teams in the division all have the same amount of losses - 43.
    
    So's I suppose ack-ack cain now start spewing forth some 'trons about
    how the Sox are really in 1st place too!
    
    I remain,
    smart in the ways of dastistical twisting!
    Kev
    

    Well Thomas,
    
    I'm enjoying it while I can also.. Not to sound like Dr. Doom, but
    realistically, I don't believe they'll be up there in the end.
    I think all the players are playing their hearts out and over their
    heads (pitchers excepting). Their outfield has less range than Amana
    and their infield defense won't bedazzle ya, but they're making it
    exciting.  If they're gonna stay in it, then their pitching will have
    to remain stellar.
    
    But I'm on the bandwagon, so GO SOX! ( and please make a trade fer
    Ricky Henderson, Shane Mack, or maybe Rob Deer)
    
    MikeL
    
    
    

    Of course they won't win it all.  I'm at a total loss to explain how
    it's possible for this bunch to win 21 of 26 in *any* stretch, though.
    You don't see many of those from anyone, especially mediocre teams.  
    How did it happen?  What does it mean?
    
    I hope that Toronto continues to go with Jack "Stick a Fork in Me" 
    Morris, though.  He did get hurt last night and had to come out, and
    the Jays won.  Please get well soon, Jack!  If the Jays ever figure out
    that Morris really is through and decide to bring up a talented young
    starter by the name of Paul Spoljaric, it could be over.  No way could
    he (or anyone else) be worse than Morris.
    
    glenn
    

    
      I don't mean to be a wet blanket [I just can't help it, though] but
     haven't we (Sox fans) been down this road before. A *few* times. If
     they make the LCS, sure I'll be excited but July is just a bit early
     to start making comparisons to '67 and '75. Enjoy it while it lasts
     but realize that it may not last all that long and the little bit of
     excitement that they've given us so far is more than was expected not
     all that long ago.

Tommy -

I'm glad you put that note in.  If I had, Mac woulda been all over me!

JD

PS:  Knorr has season ticks to the Braves?  Wonder how long he's been
a real Braves fan?  Well, let me think back to that DECUS game and
how big a baseball fan Chrissy was....and now the Sox are 'his' team...
How disgusting.

    There Division seems to be very tight, with most of the division above
    .500 ???  Is this division that good ?  How do people rate the division
    in baseball.  Is the National League better then the American League.
    Lets get a rathole going :-)
    
    Even if the sox's dont take 1st place at least they giving all you
    bball fans something to watch, if they had lost the last 21 of 26
    there seasone would be basically over and no one would be going to
    games etc, I dont watch much BBall I usally get to 2 or 3 games a
    year and watch the Off's if they make it.  Hockey and BBall have
    too many games to try and watch the entire season, you could watch
    2 Baseball games a night....
    
    								MairB

          
> I'm glad you put that note in.  If I had, Mac woulda been all over me!
    
    Oh, I'm sure you would have managed to embellish it a bit more to
    directly antagonize *someone*, if not the entire city, state, and
    region, JD.  ;-)
    
    Tommy's sentiments are not far out of line with my own, with one
    possible exception.  I enjoy these mid-to-late-summer battles *more*
    than the League Championship Series.  I see no reason to wait to be
    "excited" (for the lack of a better word).  It's not a matter of being
    led down a path only to be let down.  I couldn't care less about that;
    it's part of the package.  To me, playing an important ballgame *every
    day* is the entire appeal.  Granted, it could be over in two weeks, but 
    that's also part of the deal...  
    
    glenn
    

    
    >> I enjoy these mid-to-late-summer battles *more* than the League 
    >> Championship Series.  I see no reason to wait to be "excited" (for 
    >> the lack of a better word).  

        A late season series against the Yankees with both teams contending
       is about as exciting as sports get around these here parts. Every bit
       as charged as the Celtics-Lakers series of the '80's and maybe even
       a little more so because of the place that the Sox hold in the hearts
       of New Englanders. BUT it will take the Sox making the LCS for me to 
       be suckered into believing that they might actually win it all this
       year.
    

    > BUT it will take the Sox making the LCS for me to be suckered into
    > believing that they might actually win it all this year.
    
    There's not a NewEnglander alive who will *EVER* be suckered into
    believing the Sox might actually win it all, regardless of who's on the
    team.
    
    There's never, EVER been a team (pick your sport) to take its fans to 
    such emotional lengths only to let 'em down at the end.  The resulting
    skepticism is woven into the fabric of every true New Englander.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

    If the Sox stay in contention over the next month and a half, we'll
    be seeing this note hit .1000!  And, probably from a new noter, too.
    
    Lee

fun, fun, fun.

Tommy I want to add to JD's thanks for putting that note in.

re: a different Tommy note

Good to see you are finally back in the swing of things. Just an fyi
that if needed I can and will start putting in notes that folks might
really be offended by.

The Crazy Met

    What is making this pennant race so exciting is the fact that NOBODY
    picked the Red Sox to be anywhere near the top.  That's why I have
    absolutely no problem swallowing the bait, as they say, to cheer these
    guys on.  They're not expected to do it, so the past month has been an
    early Christmas gift to the baseball fans of New England.  Even my 4
    year old daughter, who up until now had found the game to be a total
    bore, practically wet herself the other night when I told her Roger 
    Clemens was pitching.
    
    For anyone that's watched most or all of the Sox games to date, it's
    apparent that this is one of those years where everything is going their
    way.  Ride the wave while it lasts.  It don't get much better than
    this.
    
    					Steve

    
    Tommy, why are all these New Yorkers thanking you for your notes? 
    What's the story here?  You've pretty much stated the obvious about the
    Red Sox and these Mets fans appear overwhelmed by da Troof...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
      I have been a Sox fan since birth and have been on the emotional
    roller coaster many times.  I too thought the sox would be about 10
    games out by now but I would still be tunning in to watch Butch get
    out mananged night after night.  While still no Butch Hobson fan, I
    think he is starting to learn how to manage and it seems to be paying
    off.  Say what you want, mediocore division, luck, a few guys playing
    way above themselves, I don't care, the Sox are in a pennant race and
    it don't get any better than this.  I will ride this untill the end and
    not embarressed to say I'm a Sox fan, never have been never will.
    
    Jerry

    hey tommy, stop rainin' on my parade.
    
    JD, phtttttthhhhhhppppptttttt  When ya leavin?

    Thats right, keep on thinking the Red S*cks are going all the way.
    Lou is Moses and Hobson is Jesus... Jump on the bandwagon...
    1967 all over again... 
    
    When (no if) the bandwagon hits a Bluejay and crashes and burns try
    not to trample the people in front of you jumpimg off the B_W...
    
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!tm
    
    REK
    
    PS I'm betting on a Yankee-Bluejay battle in September...
    

    I dont think the blue jays can do it again, oh wait do they
    still have the Largest damn payroll in baseball, who knows maybe
    Money can buy ya 2 championships... :-)
    
    Toronto Blue Jays the Best Team Money can Buy.
    
    								MaB
    even a non Baseball Regular like myself's knows
    high paid talant when he see's it :-)

    
    If baseball can keep the focus on the race in the AL East instead of on
    players salaries, lockouts, strikes, they will have a great tale to
    tell this season. Despite the fact that I hope the Yankees do not win
    the division, that I am very ambivalent about the Red Sox, and like the
    Jays but don't have a real rooting interest it is great to have a
    pennant race like this. Toss in Baltimore and Detroit who are not that
    far back and it makes this race worth following even when the only
    rooting interest is negative - that is who does not win the division.
    
    None of the 3 teams tied for first are as bad as they have looked when
    going through losing streaks, nor as good as they look when they win 10
    straight or come back from 8-0 deficits to win. An injury to a key
    player could be the difference, a slump at the wrong part of the
    schedule or winning streak just at the right time could make the
    difference. This is the kind of race that just can't happen in football
    because the season is so short. 2 months of 3-5 teams fighting it out
    is one of the things baseball does better than any other sport.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    TEN IN A ROW!!!!!!!!
    
    In FIRSTED PLACE!!!!!
    
    MY ALL-TIME FAVORITE TEAM!!!!!!
    
    PARADE IN OCTOBER!!!!!!
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_ACChris!
    
    

    
    Well said, TCM.  Myself, I'm hoping for at least three races going right 
    down to the wire, resulting in one or two divisional ties and 1-game
    playoffs after 162 games have been played.  That might cause the barons 
    to re-think their silly little playoff plan.  As I heard on the radio 
    this morning, baseball parks all over the country have been jammed to
    overfull in the past couple weeks, and interest in these races likely 
    hasn't peaked yet...
    
    glenn
       

For the moment there are 3, Phillies lead is down to 4. Problem
in NL West is Giants and Bonds have to go through a serious slump.
Atlanta needs help from other teams. McGriff might not be enough - though he
has certainly had a very quick impact.

The Crazy Met

ps - forget about the owners rethinking their playoff plans.
Even a classic rivalry (Red Sox - Yankees) won't make them change their
minds. sigh :-(

    With the AL West looking like it will only take a team with a .500
    record to win it, I think the owners will be able to use this season's
    finish to justify the new playoff system.

How Mac?? The owners plan has the 2 second place teams getting in
to the playoffs, NOT the 2 non-division winners with the best records/

The Crazy Met

                                                    
    > With the AL West looking like it will only take a team with a .500
    > record to win it, I think the owners will be able to use this season's
    > finish to justify the new playoff system.
    
    Mac, you're obviously confusing what might make sense or what might be
    just and right with where the money is (which happen to be in opposite
    camps on this issue).  If the money comes flowing in even in September 
    due to some hotly-contested multi-team pennant races, that's the one 
    thing (in combination with a growing fan and media backlash) that could 
    give the owners pause on their plan.  It's been argued that the 4-team 
    league playoff increases interest when there are no pennant races, but 
    when you've got so many teams with a legitimate shot I believe that
    regular-season interest is held highest when there's only payoff per 
    division.  I might be dreaming that in the year before the plan is to 
    go in effect that an absolutely optimal scenario to work against it 
    comes about that forestalls its adoption, but that's what I'm hoping 
    happens nonetheless. 
    
    glenn
    

>>For the moment there are 3, Phillies lead is down to 4. Problem
>>in NL West is Giants and Bonds have to go through a serious slump.

	never fear, October is right around the corner.


	billl

From what I read it was pretty much decided it would be the 2 second place
teams.

The Crazy Met

    Can they continue on the road, I heard this morning the sox's start a 
    13 or 14 game road trip.. ??  Who do they play on this stretch.  Could
    be a real sign of what there made of.  Still great to see and hear all
    the support.  But this is NE and these are the sox's and we know how
    quick things will change when they start losing (If the start losing).
    I hope the hand in there... Id have to say that at this point they
    still have to be considered and underdog to win it all, and I love 
    rooting for an underdog, especially from boston :-)
    
    I hope all you Sox's fans are enjoying it and i hope it continues thru
    the rest of the season.  Im still not watching any games on TV but Im
    planning on a couple of trips to the ballpark in late august or early
    september... Best of luck on the road trip...
    
    								mab

>    Can they continue on the road, I heard this morning the sox's start a 
>    13 or 14 game road trip.. ??  Who do they play on this stretch.  Could
>    be a real sign of what there made of.  


	Mil (4)
	Bal (3)
	-off-
	Min (3)
	Det (3)
	-off-
	Home for NY   8/10


That's what my schedule says.


    
>    I hope all you Sox's fans are enjoying it and i hope it continues thru
>    the rest of the season.  Im still not watching any games on TV but Im
>    planning on a couple of trips to the ballpark in late august or early
>    september... Best of luck on the road trip...
    
Thanks....  It's enjoyable now, and why not enjoy it, they're playing
good ball, and that's ALWAYS enjoyable.....


'Saw

    I seriously doubt that the owners are going to reconsider the new
   playoff structure no matter what happens in the pennant races. The
   reason for the changes is still the same - money. Until they're con-
   vinced that they can make more money with the current structure than 
   with an expanded playoffs they'll go with the expanded. It's pretty
   sad too because this year may be the last of the great Yankee-Red Sox
   pennant races. Sure at some point in the future tese two teams may be
   battling it out for a final playoff spot but somehow it won't be quite
   the same as "THE PENNANT". Who knows baseball may have to come up with
   a bunch of those convoluted tie breakers like football has to determine
   the wild card teams. Won't that be just great?

  That's what I meant, Mr Galldang-know-it-all.

                                             
    Maybe the owners are just setting us up with this system to be
    instituted for 1994.  By contrast, the proposed follow-on realignment 
    into three divisions with a single wildcard spot for 1995 and beyond 
    looks a whole lot better from my vantage point than it did before this
    interim system was devised.  It'll undoubtedly be Boston, New York,
    Baltimore, and Toronto in one super-division, but some of the others
    might be slightly less interesting from a fan perspective.  Detroit, 
    Milwaukee and possibly Cleveland (which would probably stay in the 
    East, actually) won't be thrilled with moving into a Central Division 
    and losing those traditional rivals, I'm sure. 
    
    I was at the Sox games on Saturday and Sunday and that place is
    positively *electric* at this point.  I wish I had been there Friday 
    night for what has to have been the most exciting game of the season to 
    date.  I stuck around too long for too many beers at the Ground Round 
    but it was worth it to see Greenie's line shot home run off Eckersley 
    and then Zupcic's game-winner on the big screen in the presence of a 
    bar crowd that had become increasingly more interested as the night 
    wore on (was it just Denny, Slash and I there at that point?).  I just 
    hope the feeling's still there when they come back from this 13-game 
    road trip-- I'm conveniently headed for my dad's place in DC this 
    weekend to lend my support for the games in Baltimore! 
    
    glenn
    

Tommy, do I understand correctly from .419 that you think there
are things about baseball that are better than footbal??

I remain astounded and amazed,

The Crazy Met

  >> Tommy, do I understand correctly from .419 that you think there
  >> are things about baseball that are better than footbal??


     I never said baseball was completely bad. And to be fair the one 
     team per division rule just wouldn't be fair in football because 
     they play so few games. However, there are other things in baseball 
     that are better than football. The stadiums for one. The timeless
     feel of being at a ballpark like Fenway. And although this is purely 
     subjective on my part, I think by and large, the fans at your average 
     baseball game have a greater understanding of both the nuance and 
     history of their game than football fans do of their's. 

    Roger Clemens was nominated for the 1993 Roberto Clemente award.  This
    award is given for on and off the field activities.  Apparently Clemens
    is quite active in charity work.

    Let's just hope they don't lose 10 in a row in August or September.

    
      Damn near every player that was interviewed after yesterday's game
     alluded to the closeness and chemistry of the team. Weren't nobody
     talking like that when Mr MemyselfandI, Wade Boggs, was in town.
     Except, of course, for old Wade himself but that was as transparent 
     as his post-Margo "Lord willing..." and "The Lord works in mysterious
     ways" crap. Frank Viola even went so far as to compare this team to 
     the '87 Twin which he said wasn't the most talented team in baseball 
     but were a tight team and played together every night and got it done. 
     Granted, everybody's usually happy on a winning club and in these cases
     cause and effect are hard to determine. But it's my belief that you just
     can't underestimate what getting rid of one jerk can do for your ballclub.

    The only reason the Sox aren't missing Wade Boggs is because Cooper has
    filled the void nicely and they have other guys getting on base for a
    change.
    
    And I see that things are miserable on that other first place team in
    da Bronx.

    
     > But it's my belief that you just
     > can't underestimate what getting rid of one jerk can do for your 
     > ballclub.
       
    'Course as you alluded to they said the same stuff when they were
    winning in 1986, 1988, and 1990.  And then there's the small matter of
    being tied for first with the Yankees, where the Yank are all talking 
    "new attitude", too.  But gawd, yes, I hope it really and truly is 
    different this time 'round in the results...  
    
    glenn

    
>      Wade's gone. He's not missed. Them's facts.
    
    No one has really claimed otherwise, in the literal sense.  I've said
    that Wade would be "missed" in the sense that I appreciated his talent
    and accomplishments over the years, regardless of the outlandish things
    he'd say and do, but that at this stage in his career and for the money 
    that he was demanding it didn't make sense to retain him.  More than a 
    subtle difference...
    
    glenn
    

    Tough loss for the Red Sox. 3-2 on a 2 run HR with 2 out in the bottom
    of the 9th. HR off of Russell. It will be fascinating to see how this
    type of loss affects them. It reminded me of a similar kind of loss in
    September of 1991 to the Yankees where Reardon gave up a game tying HR
    to Roberto Kelly (I think) with 2 out in the 9th; Yankees won in 10 or
    11 beating Matt Young. Sox could have tied for first with a win since
    Jays played that evening; Sox never did get into first. Of course that
    was much later in the season but it will be interesting to watch.
    
    Other teams that made runs and then lost a game in the 9th never
    regained their momentum (Pendleton off McDowell in 1987 in September,
    Randolph against the Mets in August of 1989 come to mind, there are
    others).
    
    Yankees also lost. Jays move into first by not playing.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    > Of course that
    > was much later in the season but it will be interesting to watch.
      
    That's the main difference right there.  It's way too early for one tough
    loss to affect the progress of the remaining 63 games, but if the Red
    Sox suffer a poor road trip, look for far too much to be made of this
    Brunansky home run nonetheless (many were pointing to a mediocre 7-6 
    trip as more than acceptable even before last night, just as a matter
    of the law of averages coinciding with the longest trip of the year).  
    Even the Kelly homer, which was damaging to be sure, still mostly
    served as a symbolic placemarker for an overused bullpen that quickly 
    and not unexpectedly fell apart down the stretch.
    
    glenn
    

    Ah, one that got away...
    
    Couple observations..
    
    * There are certain people that shouldn't be allowed to wear stretch
      unis. Roger Clemens and Mo Vaughn come to mind. Those dang unis
      make these two look like they're soon to audition for FatBoys II.
    
    * Mo certainly continues to tattoo lefties, don't he. Mike Easler
      has done the job with the HitDog.
    
    * Speakin' of Easler, looks like it's time to rip Tony Pena a new
      rectum. Ol .189 is upo there swinging from the heels against
      the off-speed offerings of Novoa. If any man looked as weak as
      Antanacio does, I'd like to know whom. Ever hear of *trying*
      to hit to right Tony??
    
    * Speakin' of Pena, nice pitch call on old friend Bruno. The man
      can't hit the cheese, but hits a weak slider. Boom! Russell
      says in the paper that he hesitated when Tony called for it.
      Wail, dummy, step off and shake hin off! Oh well, cain't win
      'em all.
    
    * Somebody tell Fletcher to *git* that dang lead man. Minor nit 8^)
    
    * Ya gots to like Tony Fossas. Anyone who looks as much in shape as
      yo' average DEC softball player is OK by me.
    
    * Don't git me wrong, I like Billy Hatcher, but Bip Roberts or Shane
      Mack would look great in CF. Hatcher gives it his all, but he don't
      have the range to be an *everyday* CF. Put him in right and keep
      Andre's knees safe as DH. Billy shoulda had that 2B by Surhoff.
    
    
    Sox will bounce back tho.. Lou, make that trade for a CF!! And make
    Tony git in that cage with Easler!
    
    MikeL
    

    Tommy, you're beginning to remind me of the woman who sat in front of
    me at Fenway druing Wades' first game back as a Yankee.  She said it is
    going to be a real shame to see Wade inducted into the Hall of Fame.

Hey, that lady sounds like okay people to me.


'saw

 Some team player that Roger's turning out to be. Keeping the young pups up
 till 6 am in the morning after a night game with a day game to follow. Shame
 on you Rog....

 Is Rog a snow freak or something? I mean 30 year old men usually don't stay
 up all night without some kind of aid......

 "Bob Barker ain't got anything on me..." ane then he gets bit...too much

 mike

           <<< Note 88.442 by SHARE::DERRY "Color me impressed..." >>>
                         -< Danny gets 10 before Rog >-

>    6 a.m... early tee time?
    
>    He's such a nice guy.... trying to save a little dog.  He's just
>    incredible.  Admit it, Mikey.  Maybe he should get some kind of award.  

 You mean he shilling for the Roberto Clemete Award????

 mike

    Bob, as a parent of a youngster I'm sure you can too.

>Yea, but being thrown up on, and administering liquid Tylenol ain't quite 
>the same as when I was popping open my 18th can of Bud as the sun was coming up,
>and then going to some greasy spoon diner for "breakfast".

It's all relative.  After 18 Buds and a greasy spoon breakfast, I'm sure
that there had to be someone you hurled on, and got your liquid Tylenol
from 8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

	Admit it Mike, Roger qualifies for sainthood after this latest 
episode.  Imagine risking that million dollar pitching hand to save a 
wounded dog he found in the street.  Damn, I'm getting all misty-eyed just 
thinking about it...  What a guy!  Quite frankly any member of this Sox 
team probably would've done the same thing.  They're just a bunch of 9-5 
guys carrying thier lunchpails to the ballpark every day.  Just a bunch of 
scrapping, digging, overachieving, dog-saving swell fellows.  Damn, if I 
ain't getting a stiffie just thinking about these 25 Rocky Balboas!

				/Don

    Almost as good as JD's, Knicks note there Slasher!
    
    					Steve

      Just to think that I WAS hungry a minute ago.  Anyone got some Pepto?

    Hey, after spending this weekend at beautiful Camden Yards, where my 
    Red Sox took two of three in front of thousands of disappointed 
    Baltimoreans (and more than a few Red Sox fans), my de-programming is 
    complete.  What a group of guys!  What humanitarians!  What battlers!  
    What a team!  All the way in '93!
    
    glenn
      

    But is Fenway still better than Camden?
    

    	Betcha he say no. Walte.  Did Denny and I steer ya wrong Glenn?
    
    				/Don

    > But is Fenway still better than Camden?
    
    No, it's not.  But I still can't pick one over the other, because the
    appeal of each is different, as different as the times in which they 
    were built.  They both have one thing in common, though, in the most
    important department (for me): mostly good seats very close to the 
    field, with good sightlines (right field is the exception in both 
    parks).  When the time comes, I certainly would not mind Fenway Park 
    being replaced with a Camden Yards.  I didn't need to see Camden Yards 
    to know that, though.
    
    I will say this, though: while Camden Yards is a great park to *watch 
    baseball* (the primary function of a baseball park, after all), it seems 
    as if this is lost on literally thousands in attendance who spend 
    little time actually watching the game, instead milling around the park, 
    taking in the sights, shopping on Eutaw Street, etc.  I understand that 
    many of these folks are tourists seeing the park for the first time,
    and it is a rather amazing spectacle.  But no way do I miss the kind of 
    good baseball that was on display this weekend so that I can stand in
    line for 45 minutes at Boog Powell's BBQ pit (not when you can get
    through Tom Matte's in 10! ;-).  I suspect that in time much of this
    romantic, somewhat sappy appeal to the traditional aspects of the game
    will recede and the park itself will become a classic for what it was
    built for, which is for baseball being played in the here and now.
    
    glenn
    

    Was that really Wade, Lead Drawers, Boggs running from first to third
    on a single last night.  And then trying to score on a sac. fly(in
    vain) using a quite acceptable fadeaway slide.
    
    And looking like he really cared.
    
    b

>    Was that really Wade, Lead Drawers, Boggs running from first to third
>    on a single last night.  And then trying to score on a sac. fly(in
>    vain) using a quite acceptable fadeaway slide.
>    
>    And looking like he really cared.
    
I replayed that footage of Wade over and over and over, and my exacting
mathematical calculations have determined that Wade's speed was a 
whopping

	1.75 Mr_Potato_Heads


hth,
'Saw

    How does that translate into Gedmans?
    

    	'Saw,
    
    	I'm glad I wasn't drinking something when I read that. I would
    	definitely have had to replace my keyboard.
    
    	Mr. Potato(e) Heads, indeed.
    
    	Scott

    Walt, Mr. Potato head = Gedman.

    HEY!
    
    Watch out treading on my MPH@tm there willya??
    
    I expect royalties!!
    
    8^)
    MikeL
    

MikeL,

I'll buy you a Bushmills at the nexted get-together, and I'll tell ye
tales of a bunch of English folks and heathen Americans sitting down
to play a fine Irish tune from County Derry......


A Mister_Potato_Head equals the speed with which Rich Gedman runs.
There is still great speculation far and wide over whether or not 'Saw
can achieve more than 1 Mister_Potato_Head when he runs.....


hth,
'Saw

    Ain't no one gonna say it??
    
    Happy Birthday RocketMain(31). He got his birthday present....
    NO RABIES.... however he is known to suffer from occasional bouts
    of distemper.
    
    Howl,
    MikeL
    

    The BoSox, Jays, and Yankmes sure have some interesting schedules over
    the home stretch.

    I was surprised to see in yesterday's paper that they lead the AL in
    team pitching.  It's probably been decades since they last did that. 
    On the other hand, the team batting rating is uncharacteristically low.

    
    Mike, you obviosly don't follow the Red Sox very well.  Not sure on the
    numbers here, but I'd be willing to bet they have led the AL in
    pitching for 3 of the last 6 years.
    
    Marc
    

    Not a bad rode trip, but the next 2 series could make or break the
    season... A nice 6 game win streak right now would do wonder's but
    if they lose 1/2 of there next 8 games they will be in BIG trouble.
    I wish them well, NY and Toronto this week.... This could be a Cruel
    week to Red Sox's Fans... I hope sele can win his next 2 :-)...
    
    								MaB

    fwiw
    ~50 games remaining - 31 of'm are @home.
    
    I remain,
    seconding this is gonna be a very interesting few weeks!
    Kev
    

it's even more incredible when you consider the "horse" is having a gawd awful
year by mere mortal standards never mind by demi-gawd status....

mike

    
    
       Well it happens every year at this time (give or take a month).
    Bucky Dent caused it about 16 years ago, other names that come to mind
    are Roberto Kelly, Billy Buck, Chris Chambliss, Matt Young, Mike Torrez,
    Ron Guidry, Greg Nettles, and it goes on and on.
    
           When will it end? Why do the fans keep coming back. Respect must
    be given to these fans and it is warranted to the fan who sticks thru
    it every year. Being from the greater New England area at times I wish
    I could help "ease the pain" but I know in my heart they will never "go
    the distance".
    
         Oh you great #3 why oh why do you you linger so? Was the play that
    bad? 
    
    Chappy

    That's funny on my way to work this morning I was trying to think if
    this is too early for the sox to start slipping or not.  I hope they
    sweep the next 6, anything less may not be enough.  Id like to see them
    win it on there own and not have to rely on other teams losing to keep
    it close.  They have potential, I dont think theyll start there slide
    just yet, I see them splitting 3-3, 2-1vsNY and 1-2vsToronto... will
    keep them close enough for hope....
    								MaB

    
    Chappy, I think you should wait for that 4-game series in Yankee
    Stadium in mid-September to start your yapping.  That's a much more
    appropriate time and place for a Red Sox collapse.  You should be happy
    if the Yanks don't lose this series, dropping two of three...
    
    glenn
    

    
    FIVE - ZIP!!!!!!!
    
    Yankmee's eat the big pickle!!!!
    
    Parade in January!
    
    I remain,
    firsted with the breaking noos!
    Kev
    

    Da boys from Seton Hall supplied the fireworks.

    Interesting situation with Hesketh.  I heard this morning that a
    Deer-jh trade is imminent with the nice performance last night
    seemingly convincing the tigers to make the deal.
    
    personally I think the sox would be crazy to deal hesketh since he is
    their only lefthanded middle relief and spot starter.  He has been
    effective since end of june thought rarely used and fossas is only a
    situation pitcher.
    
    I have had this problem with stocks: you wanna get rid of a dog but
    want the price to go up a bit; the stock goes up and then you say - I
    can't get rid of it now it's looking good.
    
    But you have to have those lefties right 'saw
    
    b

    
    Hey MikeyC!!!!!
    
    I gots ta know......
    
    #1 - Is tonight's game an important one?
    
    #2 - Isn't yo main man Roger scheduled to pitch?
    
    #3 - based on #1 and #2, what's yo prediction?????
    
    deening.....
    
    I remain,
    really curious on how you feel!
    Kev
    

    Losing Hesketh would be no big deal.  They should have dumped him
    earlier to prevent having to send Ken Ryan back down to Pawtucket. 
    Fossas gives them the lefty out of the pen.

    
    
      I also think loosing Hesketh would be no big deal.  We've got Scott
     Taylor at Pawtucket and can do the same job as Hesketh.  What the big
     problem is how to get Ryan back here AND keep a lefty (other than
     Fossas) in the pen.
    
    Jerry

    > I also think loosing Hesketh would be no big deal.  We've got Scott
    > Taylor at Pawtucket and can do the same job as Hesketh.  What the big
    > problem is how to get Ryan back here AND keep a lefty (other than
    > Fossas) in the pen.
    
    I don't about this; Taylor has never demonstrated that he can throw
    strikes, while Hesketh can at least do that.  I've kind of been in the
    minority on this issue.  While I agree that at this time Ken Ryan
    should on the team instead of Hesketh, Ryan's short absence has not
    hurt the Sox and I don't like the idea of just dumping a functional
    lefthanded starter/long reliever who could come in use down the road,
    or even next year.  John Dopson is most likely history after this
    season, for one thing, and perhaps should be made history a little in
    advance.  You can't just look at the situation as it exists over the
    next couple weeks...
    
    glenn
    

    how old is Deer and Hesketh???
    
                                      stig

    Kev, MikeC hasn't answered ya because he's probably outside of Fenway
    right now trying to get SRO tickets to see his idol, the Rocket.

    Hesketh is 34, Deer 32.
    

>      <<< Note 88.488 by ROYALT::ASHE "Noone loves me but my mother..." >>>
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

C'mon B.B.!!!!!

 Well obviously you have to like the Yanks' chances tonight. Clemens sucks
 at Fenway and then you toss in the importance of the game and the fact that
 it August and you got feel Rog will come up short again....

 mike

    
    Yabbut youalso forgot to mention that his highness also has a era of
    something like 3.55.
    
    The Sox also brought Tim Neahring up from Pawtuckett.
    
    I remain,
    having a feeling that MikeyC's straddling the fence again!
    Kev
    ;^)
    

    Just heard the new's CLAMons got big by a bird and wont be pitching
    tonight :-) ....
    
    Its nice to see other's have the same faith in CLAMons that I has ...

         
    Well, I'll once again express my faith in Roger Clemens, but I can
    guarantee that he won't win if the Sox put a "0" or a "1" up on the
    scoreboard again, as they have in his last three starts.  No one's 
    that good...
    
    glenn
    

    Sent Riles down...
    

Wait a dang minnow there Kev, I ain't strattlin' the fence. I predict that
Rog will loose and loose big. Problem is I got a KOD like the Dinz so every
time I open up and blast his royalness he usually gives you'se guy ammo to
bomb me with the nexted(tm) day....

mike

    Maryann... gotta love the braids... Ginger would be too busy putting on
    makeup...
    
    I think Key wins tonight...
    

    
    >>                -< why not a MaryAnn > Ginger LDUC??? >-
    
    Ginger had that used look, like she hit every director's casting couch
    that was open at the time.
    
    Mary Ann had that wholesome, virgin type look, although everybody knew
    that she and Gilligan were skinny-dipping late at night in the lagoon
    and he was nailing her on the beach.
    
    JaKe
    

ya but, Ginger looked like she knew her way around the bedroom while
MaryAnn probably took a bath with her eyes closed....

    
>>ya but, Ginger looked like she knew her way around the bedroom while
>>MaryAnn probably took a bath with her eyes closed....
    
    Nah, Ginger probably counted the cracks on the ceiling, whilst Mary Ann
    was one of those that looked naive, but was a wild one in the sack.
    
    JaKe
    

Tommy,

Most of 'em are already trying to find a diversion for when the Red Sox
inevitably blow it once again. 

The others figure that sooner or later they'll know how the pennant race turns
out; but MaryAnn vs Ginger is a deep philosophical discussion that can go
on for far longer without ever coming to a consensus.

The Crazy Met

    I'm not a Yank fan, I'm not a Sox fan... my team is 8 games out.  Why
    should I get caught up in the "Pennant Fever grips hub" propaganda.
    
    
    I bet Skipper would go after "Lovey" before he'd go after Ginger...
    

    
    >>I bet Skipper would go after "Lovey" before he'd go after Ginger...
    
    Nah, the Skipper and the Perfessor was an item, though.
    
    JaKe
    

Yeah, it's quite a race to see who the Jays will allow to carry their bats
in the LCS.

As a former Yankee fan it DOES warm my heart to see a spark of life back in
Yankee stadium, pitiful as it may be. And as a long-time Red Sox hater I am 
very happy to see them close enough to deliver real frustration and disappoint-
ment to their hundreds of fans once again.

;)

josh

    The sound of MikeC rejoicing comes in LOUD and clear.
    
    8-3 Red Sox lose, Clemens gets the loss and solidifies his reputation
    as a bad big game pitcher. 
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
>    8-3 Red Sox lose, Clemens gets the loss and solidifies his reputation
>    as a bad big game pitcher. 
    
    
 It wasn't his fault Craze, he got "Squeezed!!!"

 ;^)    

    
    
           Yeah he was squeezed all night...
    
       Not!!!!!
    
                Chappy

Skipper was doing Gilligan, the Professor was doing Mary Ann, and Ginger
was doing Mr. Howell....

That's the official version.


I didn't see the game last night, but from the sounds of it I didn't miss
much....


'Saw

    It was a much different strike zone last night than the previous, but
    Clemens should have been able to adjust and he didn't.  There was a lot
    of sharp plays in the field by both teams.  Difference last night was
    definitely in the pitching.
    
    					Steve

    
    Lasted night I was playing Norm_the_Carpenter and had the Sox game on
    the radion.  About 6 pitches into the game the radion announcers were
    moaning and groaning about the umpire nad the way he was claaing "good"
    pitches balls and getting Roger all kind of upset.
    
    I couldn't help but think that it was really reall unfair not to give
    Rog the bigger strike zone and that obviously the Yankmees had done a
    Clemson_ref(tm) deal with the guy!
    
    I remain,
    thinking that Rog was robbed!!!!!
    Kev
    ;^)
    

    Roger's mistake was getting frustrated at the perceived "squeezing".
    Hell he walked 6 so he let the "strike zone" get the best of him.
    
    Like Mattingly said, I thought Rog was just a hair off. And the
    ump called it that way. Close but no cigar. After the game Clemens
    said " I thought I was making good pitches, but obviously not."
    Didn't sound like whining to me after the game. 
    
    We all know that Scott was giving Key mo' leeway 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    Rog also was quoted as saying that his 9-9 record wasn't important to
    him!
    
    Sounds like a Wade-Not kinda guy!
    
    I remain,
    wondering if his contract has incentives????
    Kev
    

                                              
    I don't know; I don't think Roger's been getting angry enough lately.
    I think he's mellowed, and post-Cooney has reined himself in somewhat.
    Let's see the old Roger again.  I'm tired of the postgame analysis of
    whether Roger had his stuff or not, or was just a tad off here or 
    there.  If batters are going to stand up there and take pitch after 
    pitch just off the black without a call so that they can eventually sit
    on a fat one, I say that Roger should just make it easier on both the 
    batter and the ump by making the hitters take a few pitches from the 
    seat of their pants once in a while.  Yes, Clemens later did sail a
    glancing blow off Bernie Williams' haid, but that was too late, out of
    place, and almost certainly an accident.  C'mon Rog, take a lesson from
    your idol Nolie and let the batters know very early in the game that 
    they'd best not turn into complete statues up there!
    
    glenn
    

>            -< No more Alan Alda for Roger, time to get mean again >-

Amen.

I think we should send Rog a barrel of rice for his arm.  I'm sure he
didn't do that this off-season.

He's got to fine The Zone again....


'Saw

              <<< Note 88.518 by CAM3::WAY "Sweet Home Chicago" >>>

>            -< No more Alan Alda for Roger, time to get mean again >-

Amen.

I think we should send Rog a barrel of rice for his arm.  I'm sure he
didn't do that this off-season.

He's got to fine The Zone again....
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
			yeah the strike zone!!!

 While Rog didn't do much whinning last night, Rich Gale sounded like a
 two year old.....face it folks without the bigger than average strike
 zone he's no more than an average pitcher as his 500 record would attest
 too......

 ;^)

    Sorry Tommy, if you noticed, I also mentioned I thought Key would
    win lasted night.  Guess I called that one right...
    
    -Saw, does that mean Ginger did it alone?
    

    I'm just tired of every announcer in this area swearing he's still
    the best pitcher in baseball.  His ERA for August is 9.00.  He's
    a .500 pitcher this year. He's NOT the best pitcher in baseball
    right now.  Period.

    Roger Clemens record since Sept 12th(?) of lasted year is 9-12
    Era 3.91 (?)....
    
    REK

    > I'm just tired of every announcer in this area swearing he's still
    > the best pitcher in baseball.  His ERA for August is 9.00.  He's
    > a .500 pitcher this year. He's NOT the best pitcher in baseball
    > right now.  Period.
    
    Maybe the reason is that most of these announcers have the smarts not
    to make such proclamations based on what a player has done over a
    period as short as a month, a half season, or even a full season.  If 
    you go by those standards, then we gets these perennial claims that 
    Greg Swindell, Charles Nagy, Mike Mussina, David Wells, and Jimmy Key 
    are "the best pitcher in baseball", when at the time any such claim was
    and is utter nonsense.   Roger Clemens may be coming close to being 
    dethroned, if he hasn't been already, but after leading the league in 
    ERA for three straight seasons what he's experienced this year could be 
    a mere bump in the road.
    
    glenn
    

    
    Thinking about this a little more, there's only one guy in the major
    leagues who I believe has *earned* the right to take the "best pitcher
    in baseball" mantle from Sir Roger (who earned it himself by putting up
    nothing less than a stellar season in each and every year from
    1986-92).  That pitcher is:
    
    Greg Maddux.  He's the only guy who's been at the top of his league for 
    five years or so, consistently and without interruption.   Not even Tom
    Glavine has matched that.
    
    If Roger can right himself over the rest of the year (which for the 
    first time I am experiencing some serious doubts about), then he may
    still be the one.  Consider that a mere three starts ago no one was 
    too upset with his record of 9-6, 3.20 ERA, in a season in which had
    suffered a minor injury setback.  It wasn't a great record, not up to
    Clemens' usual standards, but no one was panicking.  I'm not sure we 
    should be panicking yet over three consecutive poor starts, as unusual 
    as that is for Clemens.
    
    glenn
     

Actually in most years, Clemens seems to go through
a stretch of 3-4 games that were at the very least not good. Too bad for the Red 
Sox it is happening against teams the Sox need to beat. I assume Clemens will
not pitch in the Blue Jays series - any plans on having him pitch on Sunday?

The Crazy Met

    
    
         Glenn I know what you mean I know this one fan who thinks Sele
    is the 2nd coming. :-)
    
    
    Chappy

    Sox oughta get rid of the bum.  Send Clemens to Detroit!
    
    Lee

Lee,

Would he then be "The best" Spark has ever seen?

daryll

    I would say 86 on is going back a little far.  As of now, taking more
    than 92 into account, I'd put Maddux, Glavine and McDowell ahead of
    Clemens.  I'd have to think Rijo and Benes are on around the same
    level.  

    I would guess Johnson (see Kruk,John) or Dibble might strike more
    fear into hitters...

    
    Waitaminute.  I didn't say you had to go back to 1986 to support a
    claim for Clemens.  I said that he's been outstanding every year since
    then.  Until this season, he's been better in recent years than he was
    in the 1987-89 timeframe.  Like I said, league ERA leader, 1990, 1991,
    and 1992.  Right now, at this very moment, Roger Clemens is *not* the
    best pitcher in baseball.  However, by such shortterm standards, he
    could re-establish himself as such by September.  Who knows?  If he 
    were to, say, come back and lead the league in ERA in 1994, no one is 
    going to care much what a half-dozen really poor starts did to his
    reputation for a brief period in 1993, and he'd still be considered 
    "the best".  Objectivity must take into account more than the previous 
    two months.  Consider that *none* of the recent greats-- Koufax, 
    Gibson, Seaver, Carlton-- ever had an uninterrupted 7-year run of
    excellence like Clemens did, and one mediocre season did not signal 
    their deathknell.
    
    Part of the problem with naming someone else is that there really is 
    no other obvious dominant, "most feared" pitcher in baseball right now 
    to fill that void (unless you're talking literal physical fear-- and 
    then you could say that a borderline stiff like Randy Johnson is "the 
    best".)
    
    glenn
    

    If Clemens comes back and puts those numbers up, it will be one of the
    greatest comebacks in history... oh wait, I heard that somewhere else
    before.... (smiley goes here...)

I'd say right now that McDowell is the best pitcher in baseball. He
consistantly wins and he always keeps his team in the game. I don't think I've
seen him have a stinker game in a long time. 

He pitches the way Stewart and Morris used to and the way I read Walter "Big
Train" Johnson did. When he's ahead he coasts a bit and lets the other team
pick up a few base hits but when it comes time to bear down....Boom...game over
and another victory for Black Jack.

You won't see him atop the leaders boards in anything much more than wins...but
isn't winning what the game is all about?

Metz

    
    Re .536
    
> I'd say right now that McDowell is the best pitcher in baseball. He
> consistantly wins and he always keeps his team in the game. I don't think
> I've seen him have a stinker game in a long time. 

    He's had no truly awful games for a while, but a lot haven't been
    quality starts either...
    
> He pitches the way Stewart and Morris used to and the way I read Walter "Big
> Train" Johnson did. When he's ahead he coasts a bit and lets the other team
> pick up a few base hits but when it comes time to bear down....Boom...game
> over and another victory for Black Jack.
    
    Nice theory, but it doesn't work that way, and specifically hasn't for
    McDowell this year (I don't have the study a USENETer did in front of
    me, but the basic conclussion it came to way that the runs McDowell
    gave up were basically evenly distributed - there was no trend toward
    him giving up most of his runs _after_ the Sox built a lead).
    
    For example, his performance a couple of weeks back vs. the Indians.
    He gave up 4 in the first, and barely managed to sticks around for
    seven innings.  In the bottom of the seventh, _after_ he'd thrown his
    last pitch for the evening, the Sox went ahead, an eventually won the
    game.

> You won't see him atop the leaders boards in anything much more than wins...
> but isn't winning what the game is all about?
    
    Absolutely.  If pitchers victory totals had any strong correlation to
    their contribution to team victories, then McDowell would certainly
    be as good as anyone.  They don't, and McDowell just hasn't been as
    good as Key, or Fernandez, or even Clemens, so far this year.  Take
    park effect into account, and he might not even be doing as well as
    David Wells.  Still a fine pitcher, though.
    
    Joe

    
> I'd say right now that McDowell is the best pitcher in baseball. He
> consistantly wins and he always keeps his team in the game. I don't think I've
> seen him have a stinker game in a long time. 
    
    McDowell has been bailed out several times this year, more so than last
    year.  He'll win more games, but he's having a worse season.  That's
    what 5.7 R/G in support will do for you (Clemens is getting 3.5 R/G,
    second-worst in the league to another guy who is having a "terrible"
    season, David Cone).  Still, he's a candidate.
    
> He pitches the way Stewart and Morris used to and the way I read Walter "Big
> Train" Johnson did. When he's ahead he coasts a bit and lets the other team
> pick up a few base hits but when it comes time to bear down....Boom...game over
> and another victory for Black Jack.
    
    Walter Johnson played for one of the worst teams of all time for 20 years
    and still won over 400 games with a lifetime ERA around 2.00.  There
    was very little coasting afforded The Big Train (I think you might be
    thinking of Christy Mathewson, who wrote the book on "coasting", but
    also didn't really need to, he was so good).  That's greatness.  In 
    Stew's own words, he or Morris couldn't carry Walter's jock.

> You won't see him atop the leaders boards in anything much more than wins...but
> isn't winning what the game is all about?
    
    Yup.  But let's wait and see if it continues when the going gets a bit
    rougher for McDowell.  If you start with the fact that McDowell's
    average opponent has had a 5.50 ERA in the games pitched against him,
    realistically how often do you expect him to lose (that's like pitching
    against the Rockies every day)?  These one- or two-season things when 
    you play on a good team that scores lots of runs are common.  Clemens 
    has one of the few best winning percentages of all time, yet it's
    almost been like he somehow doesn't know how to win, because of some of
    the low-scoring teams he's been on recently.  But that's the test of 
    time, pitching in good times and bad.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
            Just say " Jimmy Key. "
    
    
    Chappy  :-)

    >        Just say " Jimmy Key. "
    
    Can't argue with that right now, but look for Key to get jobbed by
    McDowell, who will likely be pitching for a division winner with two
    other pitchers performing about as well as he...
    
    glenn
    

Chappy would almost rather have the chance to bitch that another Yankee was 
robbed of another award than to actually have Key win Cy Young this year.

The Crazy Met

I always read that the Big train kept the super heater in his pocket until he
actually needed it and then it was by the batter before he even knew it. Now
that isn't actually coasting but you don't see many a pitcher these days
holding anything back for fear of getting relieved.

I still think McDowell wil shine in the post season with his attitude and
ability to bear down when the pressure is on. I think he's only going to get
better for the next 3-4 years. 

he does have the big benefit of playing on a good offensive team where he
doesn't need to pitch a 2 run game in order to win.


Metz

    
    
    
    
        HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.......
    
    
              WAIT TIL NEXT YEAR BABY.....
    
                  Thank you Babe!  :-)
    
                   Some rivalry.
    
    Chappy

    I saw an interesting stat in the paper yesterday, I'll have to bring it
    in and get all of it.
    
    The object was the win record in their first 5 seasons for 300 career
    winners.
    
    If I recall correctly, Nolan Ryan had only 29 wins in his first 5
    years, the fewest of the big guys.
    
    Lee

    
    
         Obnoxious over bearing pain in the butt? Bahhhhhhhhhh
    
             As long as it's a Overhyping FairWeather 75year non
    Championship HAving Red Sux fan that's killed well I guess its OK.
    
    
    Chappy

Is it too early to be putting thisted sorts thang in?
    
    I'm deening.....
    
    
               -< CAM::SPORTS -- Digital's Daily Sports Tabloid >-
================================================================================
Note 29.2039                 The Boston Red Sox Note                2039 of 2355
CUPMK::DEVLIN "Je voudrais boire quelque chose."    100 lines  16-SEP-1992 13:18
                     -< It's that time of year again..... >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    NOTE:  Updated since the original....


    STAGE:   Somewhere on the Mass Turnpike.   A long, king-of-the-road,
    touring bus, with tinted windows, and gothic paintings on the side
    hurtles down the freeway - flashing its lights at any import or
    domestic that dares to get in its way.  It blares its horn at trucks,
    which obediently get out of the way.  State troopers look the other way,
    knowing that they can do nothing to stop this rambling vehicle.
    
    It cruises past Sturbridge and Westborough - causing folks to feel a
    strange coolness sweep their body.  Those foolhearty to stare at the
    riveted behemoth get a glimpse of the destination sign:
    
         "EXPRESS:  FENWAY PARK"
    
    It rampages steadily, always heading east.  And folks in towns it
    hurtles by swear they hear orchestral strains and the sounds of a diva
    warming up "LA LA LA_LA_LA_LA_LA_LAAAAAAAAA"
    
    The crescendo gets louder the closer to Landsdowne street it gets.  At
    the Natick tollbooths, the bus flashes its lights, blares its horns,
    and the booth collector only gets a glimpse of the driver.  He looks
    vaguely familiar, a rotund man, with 'Babe' stitched across his breast
    pocket.   A faded poster for the opening of "No No Nanette" can barely
    be seen through the windows.
    
    Inside the bus, a fever pitch is developing.  The star is still warming
    up - exercising her sizable lungs.  Her manager, Bucky, jokes with
    Enos, the wardrobe man, and Bill, the accountant.  "Love Beantown,"
    Bucky guffaws..."It's the one steady gig this chic has - nothing after
    this til we hit Madison Square in May! Haw!" 
    "LALALALALALAAAAALADEEDAAAAAAA!!!!!!!" the lady bellows.
    
    The bus rolls through the outlying 'burbs of Boston - like a metal
    apocalyptic horseman.  Grandfathers suddenly sit straight up and say
    "Throw the Ball!  Throw the Ball!  He can't score from FIRST!!!"
    Their sons and daughters scream "Get up Luis, GET UP!"   Their sons and
    daughters cry "Jim Willoughby!"  and their children spit up and wet
    their beds, chanting 'One Strike AWAY! One strike!'
    
    
    A shrill laughter fills the night, as the bus of doom slams into
    Beantown.  In the corporate offices, the owners feel the presence
    of the husband and wife team that guided the team for so long - 
    their mournful cries send shivers down their necks - he glances at
    the calendar - SEPTEMBER - and he realizes the Lady isn't even 
    waiting til October this time....

    In Kenmore Square, everything moves at a slower speed.  A dark cloud
    obscures the stars.  No animals move, rats and pigeons stay holed up until
    the inevitable passes.   The faithful file in, feeling strangely
    germanic and lethargic.  In the clubhouse, the Ol' Towne Team wears a
    collective grimace.  
    
    The Bus hurtles down Beacon Street, the noise too much for people to
    take.  The lady keeps warming up, the bus driver blares his horn.  The
    road crew opens the windows to laugh at the cowering masses "Poor
    schmucks" Bucky roars.....A chant that sounds like "Eupheus, Eupheus"
    can be heard....a cruel mocking chant.  
    
    Those with strong stomachs see the vanity license plate "1918" 
    A block from the destination, Babe starts laughing, "Hey guys - those
    spirits are going to try to stop us again - Won't those poor souls
    EVER learn!!!"  A ghostly collection of ex-Sox and fans form a human
    chain, trying to stop the bus - but they freeze when they see the 
    name of the bus, emblazoned in Yankee Blue - "Frazee"
    
    The bus rolls right over a sausage vendor.  The doors open.  The
    entourage gets out, slowly rolling a red carpet, which fits right
    through the legs of Bill.  The star slowly steps down, with
    a Toronto batting helmet on, a Genuine Bill Buckner autographed glove,
    Enos Slaughter's spikes, and a variety of other articles of clothing.
    
    Inside the park, the announcer asks everyone "To Please Stand...."
    But just as the strains of the National Anthem are about to start, a
    huge booming of drums cuts it off.  The lights in the stadium dim.  A 
    spotlight hits the top of the Green Monster, and 36,000 souls gasp -
    the
    FAT LADY has arrived....She belts out one last LALALALAAAAALADEEEDA...
    The glass protecting the 600 Club cracks.....
    
      And to the tune of the "Hallelujah Chorus", she belts out this year's 
      rendition ....
    
    
      "OH ITS ALL OVER NOW, ALL OVER, FORTHEREDSOXFORTHEREDSOXFORTHEREDSOX
       OH ITS ALL OVER NOW, ALL OVER,
       WAITTILNEXTYEARWAITTILNEXTYEARWAAAIIITTTTIL NEXT YEAR..."
    
    From Bar Harbour to Winter Haven, Provincetown to Great Barrington, 
    the faded hats with the "B" are placed away for another winter.  
    When the Fat Lady finishes singing, a small fire starts burning in the 
    hearts of the faithful.  The fire of eternal hope, mixed with the embers 
    of despair...another ride on the Red Sox Ferris Wheel has lurched to a
    stop...and once again, the Sox fan is stuck near the top.  The only
    solace one can take is to peer up at the seats stuck just above -
    the one with those two guys from Chicago....
    
    JD

    Maybe Kev... if the Tigers are out, the RedSox are probably next...
    

Chappy,

You really ought to have a little more respect.   Any fool can root for the
team that has won the most World Series in baseball.  It's EASY to 
root for a team who had the likes of Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle, Maris, Whitey Ford
etc etc etc.

In fact, it's probably quite chic, kind of like all the faux football feigns
who started rooting for the Dallas Sowboys during the 70s (mainly because
of their bodacious cheerleaders).   


But it takes something special to be a fan of a team like the Sox.  (Or
of some of the teams that don't exist any more -- the Washington Senators,
the Boston Braves, the Philadelphia Athletics).


So, enjoy this today.

But you can bet your last dollar that when the Sox do whup up on the 
Yankees, we'll come up with something more original than a 
Beavis and Butthead-like "hah aha hah...Red Sox Suck".....


8^)


'Saw

    
    Hate to bring it up, but with the early returns in, it looks like we
    may be able to add Wade Boggs to the list of certified ex-Sox
    Sox-killers at Fenway.  And don't give me that business about "nobody
    fears him anymore".  I fear the damned guy every time he's up there.
    He's still got his most important asset, his batting eye.  Looking at 
    it from the other side now it's even easier to appreciate what the guy 
    does by standing up there and taking 6-10 pitches out of your pitcher's 
    arm in *every* at-bat before starting a rally with a hit or those damned
    walks.  It shows up as a mere 1-for-1 in the box score, but Boggs and
    his 4 walks, 2 runs and in the middle of 3 scoring rallies was the
    difference in last night's game.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
             HE HE!!!!!
    
                 Oh Sawmain when will you ever learn. The Sox will never
    get back at the Yankees. I was pitching a TENT last night just as that
    last out was made. Enjoy the Sox good fortunes this year. :-) cuz with
    that stocked minor league farm system of theirs you might not see a
    rivalry for the next few years.
    
    
    Chappy

>             HE HE!!!!!
>    
>                 Oh Sawmain when will you ever learn. The Sox will never
>    get back at the Yankees. I was pitching a TENT last night just as that
>    last out was made. Enjoy the Sox good fortunes this year. :-) cuz with
>    that stocked minor league farm system of theirs you might not see a
>    rivalry for the next few years.
    

I'm sure ol' George will find a way to mess up the Yankees, just like
he did before.   What you're seeing now if the harvest of the seeds 
sewn while George was "out".....


'Saw

    
    Chappy, were you by any chance at the game last night?  I know that
    we've heard that when these thousands of Yankee fans (many of them 
    frontrunning native Bostonians) descend on Fenway Park that they all 
    keep their mouths shut and are well-behaved, but as luck would have 
    it I had the one old drunken Yankee fan in the entire park sitting
    right in front of me, and he had this habit of standing up after every
    marginal play in favor of the Yanks (some of them not even in their
    favor, but you have to excuse his confusion), turning around and waving 
    his arms and hat, alternately slurring his speech and barking (yes,
    barking).  This jerk *sat* and booed the 7th-inning stretch and when it
    was over he had the nerve to ask me if the beer lines were closed yet, 
    fercryinoutloud!  I know that the Yanks have almost always won these
    big games, but do their "fans" have to torment us so?  
    
    glenn
    

	The classic last night was after the game in the parking lot.  A
	ten year old kid was parading around the lot carrying a big sign 
	which read:  "Honk if Lou sucks"

	Needless to say the lot was roaring by the time the kid made his
	second trip around.


	billl

    >> It shows up as a mere 1-for-1 in the box score, but Boggs and
    >> his 4 walks, 2 runs and in the middle of 3 scoring rallies was the
    >> difference in last night's game.
    >
    >   Gee, and I thought the Sox' bats or lack thereof was the diff.
    
    If you look at from the Sox' side of the ledger, yes.  If you look at
    it from the Yanks' side, Boggs' offense was the biggest contribution
    and without it Aaron Sele pitches a similar if not quite as brilliant
    a game as Perez.
    
    >   And while you may "fear" him (for all that's worth) Wade at 
    >   this stage of his career is a mere platoon player.    
    
    That's dead wrong.  Boggs is an everyday player.  He takes more days
    off than he used to, which is reasonable, but he's still in there 
    almost every night, including against lefties.  He was in there against 
    Viola the other night.
    
    You don't have to like him, and in fact personally after these first
    two Fenway series the guy's grace period with me has just about worn
    off, but these are the facts.
    
    glenn
    

>     <<< Note 88.543 by WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "No.3 looms over Fenway....."
>    >>>                         -< Yanks rule  Sox Suck.... >-
    
    It's interesting to read this crap by Chappy, knowing that the Yankee
    fans, felt that they had to start a members only conference so they 
    wouldn't be subject to similar bs by Red Sox fans.  Judging by how
    little we saw him in here when the Sox won an earlier series, I'd say
    that Chappy is of the dish it out, but can't take it fan variety.
    
    brews  

    BTW a friend of mine is going to the Sox game tonight and is bringing
    along a sign for TV 38....
    Chappy SIPS!!!
    
    Please look at the bleachers for this sign...
    
    REK
    
    PS Yes, the friend is a noter.............

And REK also mentions a friend of his - will wonders never cease??

The Crazy Met

    
    
           By the way I can take whatever is dished out. Afterall I gotta
    live and work in this Boston biased area don't I?
    
    
    Chappy

    TCC at LEAST I have some friends... More than I can say about METS
    fans......
    
    :-}
    
    REK

    Too bad Lou banned signs in the ballpark...
    

Walt, so your mom doesn't love you anymore??

The Crazy Met

    
    
            No the only time I show my face in this note is when the two
    teams are playing each other for something worth something. You Sox
    fans take things too personal??
    
    
    Chappy

    re 27.2141...
    

>    No the only time I show my face in this note is when the two
>    teams are playing each other for something worth something.
    
    Yeah, right.  Amazing thing that you were nowhere to be seen in here on
    Wednesday morning after the Yanks had lost the series opener.  Face it,
    Chappy, you're an in-your-face frontrunner in the finest SPROTS 
    tradition...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
             Glen if I valued your opinion that last reply woulda hurt.
    
    To tell you the truth I was getting it from all sides here at WMO and
    didn't need to proclaim a loss in here? But as soon as the Yanks win
    the next 2 all the guys who were giving me sh!t here all climbed under
    rocks and I can't seem to find them?
    
               I'm not a front runner, if the Yankees lose 12 in a row I'll
    gloat when they win that 13th game.
    
    
    Chappy

    Chappy-stick, when you spout crap you get crap back.... 
    If you can't take it then don't say it....
    
    REK

    This is much better than the Maryann-Ginger discussion...

    
    
        Sorry Tommy I forgot to put a :^) after that.
    
    
              And your calling me dumb?
    
    Chappy

    
    
          REK let it fly I got a fan too.
    
    
    
    Chappy

>             Glen if I valued your opinion that last reply woulda hurt.
    
Chappy, 

You should value Glenn's opinion.  It's been my experience in here and
in person, that Glenn is one of the most learned baseball fans in here.
Now, I don't know if he has a Lou Gehrig poster, like I do, but he
knows his baseball, and is nothing if not objective....


Just thought I'd point that fack(tm) out....


'Sawa

    
    
         Well he was so right about Mattingly's uselessnes as a 3rd batter
    earlier this year that I just lost all cause.
    
    
    Chappy

>         Well he was so right about Mattingly's uselessnes as a 3rd batter
>    earlier this year that I just lost all cause.


Well, that's okay.

I'll see if I can't come up with another story from my personal life
to cheer you up 8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw    

    All REK really, really wanted to say (as a tribute to something near
    and dear to his heart),
    
    "Chap, if'n ya cain't run with the big dogs, stay on the Porch!"
    
    WooF!
    
    I remain,
    Kev_for_Rek_for_Hal!
    

    Obviously, I can't start one on Camden Yards vs. Tiger Stadium...

Say, did you hear Jim McMahon got traded?


'Saw_for_Hawk

 
> Now, I don't know if he has a Lou Gehrig poster, like I do, but he
> knows his baseball, and is nothing if not objective....
    
    Naw, 'Saw, my favorite non-hometeam legend of all time is Willie Mays,
    on a account that he was better than Mickey Mantle... ;-)
    
    Mattingly *has* experienced a semi-amazing resurgence over the past two
    months.  Right now he's performing at a level that he hasn't seen since
    1989, so maybe he's really not all done as a #3 hitter, maybe he was
    just in hibernation.  So sue me.  If he was hitting .220 he'd still be
    the best hitter in the league to Chappy.
    
    Speaking of credibility, you still convinced Wade's doing nothing for
    your guys, Chap?  That .350 BA/.450 OBP since he moved to the leadoff
    spot hasn't made a difference?
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
           I never said he wasn't doing anything for my team. I can't stand
    the guy and I think we'd be doing better with Charlie Hayes as our
    3Bman. I still think he's selfish and not a team player though.
    
    
    Chappy

    Yo glenn!
    
    Whar was you settin' lasted night. Me pop and I had beeyootifull seats
    up behind the Sox dugout in the uppa box seats. Too bad the Bosox
    did squat.
    
    Coupla observations.
    
    Greenwell is a sucka for that first pitch. Perez teased him with a high
    riser all night and Greeniw took da bait. Totally misplayed a
    "wall-ball" wannabe in the 8th.
    
    Po' Billy Hatcher ain't no CFer. If he played any deeper, he'd be
    a bleacher season ticket holder.
    
    Man, Sele's got a dadgum major-league hook.
    
    It's painful to even watch Dawson try to laig one out.
    
    Yup, Boggs' eye is back. Twas funny to hear Yank fans cheering
    ChickenMain wif clenched teeth.
    
    O'Neil thinks his *youknowwhat* don't stink
    
    Sad to see ol' Frank Howard reduced to the clubhouse batman.
    
    Gallego's a damn good versatile player.
    
    Noticed only a couple of obnoxious fans, one Yank and one Sox.
    They both looked like the West Virginny DD twins. 
    Hey Chappy, where was you sittin'??  8^)
    
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
             I was in the Sox dugout. I'm their Bat_Boy you know.
    
    
    Chappy

Mike,

I gots to ask you.

How could you and your heart-in-the-homeland father, see all of that through the
Bushmill's haze?


Enquiring Scottish minds and all that,
'Saw

    Contest #2 - find the change.
    
    		Explain it's meaning
    
    
    ;^)
    
    
================================================================================
Note 88.588                      Boston Red Sox                       588 of 589
WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "No.3 looms over Fenway....."     6 lines  13-AUG-1993 14:33
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
             I was in the Sox dugout. I'm their Bad_Boy you know.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    
         Plagiarism your in trouble now Kev!!!!
    
    
    Chap

> How could you and your heart-in-the-homeland father, see all of that through the
> Bushmill's haze?
    
    If they thought Greenwell had a shot at catching that ball off The Wall
    in the 8th, they weren't able to (that sucker was about 15 feet up)!  
    Rollward, though!  ;-)
    
    MikeL, I ended up finding one in Section 26, a little inside third
    base.  I was thinking (for about two seconds ;-) about looking for 
    you and/or Billl, but the crowds were too thick and just too much a
    hassle to deal with, with my daughter in tow.  Thought I might see
    Billl down below under LF at some point, but I didn't...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Chap,
    
    I hope this helps.....
    
    Dat weren't plagiarism.  I didn't steel your work and present it as
    mine.  You steel got full credit.
    
    However, perhaps you were thinking of "slander"???????
    
    
    (isfh)
    
    I remain,
    a big Perry Mason fan!
    Kev
    

    15' up on the wall?
    
    From our angle, it looked like it hit the base! And that was section
    consensus.
    
    Well you know the third and fourth thing to go is depth and height
    perception, and it was at night you know and I hadn't eaten me
    carrots...
    
    And no, I had no Bushmills... during the game. 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    I used to value Glenn's opinion before he got some Red Sox eyeglasses
    for patriots day. After April he has lost all common sense when it
    comes to facts concerning other baseball teams and their players.
    Let's face it, Glenn has Red Sox Pennant Fever or RSPF if you must.
    In fact, a lot of former knowledgeable baseball people in New England
     have this symptom. I can't wait until September when this RSPF finally
    goes away like the green leaves of summer....

    REK

    I *WON'T* even start about canines..................... 

Willie Mays >>>>> Mickey Mantle!!!!

Even comparing them is like saying Ginger is beter than MaryAnn - hrumppff.

	Glenn I was perched in section 30 row 4 for the night.  Thar was no
	was in hail I was gonna pay $3.25 fer a dixie cup fulla Miller Lite!

	We had a cooler full om the way down and after the game.  The only
	thing that got me outa the seat was the "recycling procedure", if'n
	yunz know what I mean.  It was a looooong game, too!

	re ball off wall in 8th:
	
	ball was at least 15 ft up the wall when it hit.  I thought Greenwell 
	did a hell of a job decoying Wade "where's Margo" Boggs and keeping 
	him from scoring.


	billl

> Sure, facts and figures and heated discussions about pennant races
> make good barroom and water cooler fodder but this in depth analysis and 
> psycho-analysis of games, teams and players, as if it were something more 
> than what it is - a game, is a little bit much.
    
    I think most of the jousting of the past few days, which has
    concentrated more on pennant race and less on facts and figures, has 
    highlighted the fact that it's a game, and that's fun.  And don't lay 
    this in-depth analysis rap solely at baseball's feet, if it's a problem
    you have in general with sports.  The level of discussion in here has not 
    *come close* to approaching that around the NBA playoffs at that time of
    year, with the myriad of stats and formulas flying around in proof that
    KJ is the best point guard in the game, or whatnot.  Not even close. 
    Once again, it boils down to which sports you like or don't.  I think
    basketball has become overanalyzed, myself, especially considering that
    by the very nature of the game as an intricate team sport that it is 
    inherently non-statistical.
    
    REK, I will bash the Red Sox and especially their management with the 
    best of them, and I still believe that the Sox are within a 
    two-out-of-three-losses weekend to the Blue Jays from becoming a 
    pretty darn good longshot once again.  I'm just not a crank.  I don't 
    believe that every Red Sox player stinks the minute he puts on the 
    home whites (and then becomes a good player again only when he makes 
    the Sox look bad after they've dumped him to another team).  I don't 
    believe that there's a magical curse on Fenway Park and that it must 
    be torn down before they can win again.  I don't make such erudite and
    classy statements such as "this team will never go anywhere until the
    old witch is dead and buried" (by the way, Mrs. Yawkey is dead now, but
    you haven't changed your tune).  No, I do not believe that the Boston
    Red Sox are the evil incarnate.
    
    glenn
    

    Yabbut Glen,
    
    Lasted weeks SI had a paragraph in the Boston Red Sox Hype_article
    (courtesy JD) about one of the sox guys tossing his bat and having it
    land on top of another bat and the final shape of the two bats was a
    perfect cross and he was quoted as saying that that would end the
    "curse", obviously referring to the what everybody knows is the curse
    of the Bambino so I don't see how you can ignore the fact that even if
    you don't believe in the existence of the curse that fact remains that
    the players do and since they do, it obviously does and since it does,
    they are effected by it and that they'll never win the big one until
    the site of the curse is exorcised and forever removed.
    
    hth!
    
    I remain,
    a once sentence wonder
    Kev
    

    
     >  In baseball you hear it during broadcast after
     >  broadcast. You get a batters average for every conceivable situation
     >  and then some. And just when you thought they couldn't come up with 
     >  a new stat, they do. And then you've got people like "The Maniacal
     >  One" Chuck Waleski who's able to make a living out of tracking Sox
     >  stats and he comes up with facts and figures that *no one* else would 
     >  have ever thought of. And the sad part is that he used to do it as
     >  a "hobby".
      
    Oh, I agree with this part wholeheartedly.  95% of the stats which you
    refer to are completely meaningless, and are only used by people who
    have no idea what they mean and are just trying to fill air time.  But
    I don't think that should be used as evidence of the "sorry state of
    the game" or whatever, nor that analysis in general is bad, just as 
    some know-nothing talking heads on basketball telecasts shouldn't
    detract from your appreciation of the beauties of that sport.  Once 
    again, go out to the ballpark!  (Not you REK, everyone else... ;-)
                           
    glenn