Conference hbahba::cam_sports

    Yanks are about to unload Hensley Meulens to the Cubs for LH Paul
    Assembacher (Sp??).
    
    Redmen Phil
     

    Coupla more moves and the Yanks MIGHT contend this year for a while.
    We know their farm system is loaded and I like the additions of
    Owen and O'Neil wif Abbott and Key throwing southpaw in da Bronx.
    And we can't forget Wade at 3B keeping the Noo Yawk media busy
    with his eccentricities.
    
    Don't laugh! The accursed Yankees might be back.
    
    MikeL
    

    Yanks signed Melido Perez to a multi-year pact.
    
    Parade in October.....
    
    Redmen Phil
    

    George is back.......
    
    Redmen Phil
    

    
    
         News from Yankee Land...
    
             George is very happy with Buck and Gene Michael (even though
    he thinks Gene spent too much of his money especially on Brien Taylor).
    
            He thinks Boggs was the buy of the year (free agent wise)
    
           He spoke yesterday with Steve Howe, saying that the Yankees
    would be loyal to him and back him up as long as Howe stays loyal to
    the Yanks.
    
         He also has stated he has changed and won't be so quick on
    personnel decisions.
    
       Starting pitching staff looks like this.
    1 Jim Abbott
    2 Jimmy Key
    3 Melido Perez
    4 Sam Militello
    5 Wickman/Kamienicki ( with the other in Long relief)
     Closers  Farr/Howe
     Set up  Habyan/Monteleone
    
     1b Mattingly
     2b Kelly/ Gallego
     ss Owen/Stanky
     3b Boggs
     RF ONeil/Gerald Williams
     CF Bernie Williams
     LF Danny Tartabull
     DH Maas/Muelens/Nokes
      C Nokes/Stanley
    
       Chappy...     YANKS IN 93

From one of the New York Papers:


	George Steinbrenner returned yeseterday triumphantly,
	like Joey Bottafuoco returning to the body shop.....



hth,
'Saw

    That was real nice of George to tone down the media circus out of
    respect for the Twin Tower bombing and the hostage situation in Waco.

What was it I heard someone say on WFAN?

Something like:


		March 1, 1993, 00:00:00  :  George returns
		March 1, 1993, 00:00:01  :  The Buck watch starts....


'Saw

  >> That was real nice of George to tone down the media circus out of
  >> respect for the Twin Tower bombing and the hostage situation in Waco.
    
     He actually had planned to have a Marilyn Monroe impersonator, a
    George Bush impersonator and someone impersonating himself. While
    the press was occupied with that, he was going to immerge from the
    stands and remove a disguise replete with a fake beard. Only in New
    York. Had to laugh too when he told Wade that he was "the steal of
    the free agent market." Luckily they were outdoors because there ain't
    a building big enough to hold those two egos. And Wade, I hate to be
    the one to break it to ya, but if you hit .230, Steinbrenner will
    turn on ya quicker than Pam Smart.

    	Now, now Tom, Wade says he feels wanted now and this no doubt
    will mean he'll bat in the number 2 spot in the order and be a complete
    "team player".  Course if it doesn't it will sure be fun reading
    the Daily News and Post this summer.  Wonder what SnideAir thinks
    about all this?
    
    				/Don

    
    If I were a Yankee fan I'd be fairly dismayed and upset at the way
    Steinbrenner is coming back, not to mention his opinion of the moves
    that have been made in his absence (most of them damn good ones,
    including the Brien Tayler signing.  No way Steinbrenner would have 
    stolen Melido Perez and some good pitching prospects for an overrated
    King George favorite, Steve Sax).  Gene Michael has done some good work
    in turning the Yankees into a legitimate contender for the next few
    years, but all indications are that Steinbrenner has not changed a bit,
    and will panic at the first available opportunity.  Yet it seems that
    most New Yorkers, bored by normal standards of behavior, are excited by 
    his return just as the Yanks are returning to respectability.
     
    As for Wade, at least he stands a chance of playing for a winner.  In
    typical Boston fashion he's being blamed by the Red Sox' fraudulent
    feelgood spring camp for everything wrong with the team over the past
    couple seasons, but when the team comes north and falls flat on its
    face there'll have to be a new scapegoat...
    
    glenn
    
                                               

    I heard earlier this afternoon that the Fat Man is going to bring on
    Reggie as one of his VP's.  
    
    Sounds interesting,
    
    
    Spud

>    I heard earlier this afternoon that the Fat Man is going to bring on
>    Reggie as one of his VP's.  
>    
>    Sounds interesting,
    
Speculation on WFAN was that Reggie was required to go into the HoF as
a Yankee.  If he did that, Big George promised him the job....

Sounds like a typical George move to me.....


'Saw

    
    
    Yup, Wade will be missed... but I'm glad he's gone, even to the
    accursed Bronxbums.  Lessee what he does for them. I really don't think
    .260 is a mere aberration. He might get to .280 in Yankme Stadia. 
    Cain't wait for Wade'sWorld in the NooYawk dailies.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
         I know it's only ST but here goes......
    
                Headlines read.......
    
              YANKS BOMB METS....
    
             18 runs 30 hits in 2 games against the Doctor at that
          Get ready to pay up TCC.
    
    Chappy

    Sounds like Matt Nokes has been in the hype capital of the world a
    little too long.  He actually thinks he's worth Langston straight up.

    
    
           Yanks win 9-1. P.Kelly, Tartabull and Nokes all had dingers,
    1 down 161 to go.
    
    
    Chappy

>           Yanks win 9-1. P.Kelly, Tartabull and Nokes all had dingers,
>    1 down 161 to go.
>    
>    
>    Chappy


Yawn......


;^)


'Saw

    
    
         Saw, What are ya tired? You should try to get more sleep if you
    are. :-)
    
    Chappy

>                          -< Now 3-1 is a yawner.... >-

Not with the Sox it isn't!!  8^) 8^) 8^) 8^)


'Saw

    	Does anybody else wonder what Schneid would've said about the two 
    R(s)BI Boggs had when the Yanks were safely ahead? 
    
    				/Don

    I wonder even more what AirSchneid thinks of his Lakers now and their
    likely foe in the playoffs.

    I go to Yankee Stadium for Opening Day yesterday and who throws out the
    first ball but Dean Smith.
    
    I guess Brian Mahoney was busy.
    
    Redmen Phil
    
    BTW - Yanks won 4-1 to go 4-3.  Abbott pitched a CG beauty.
             

    Actually Jim Valvano (sp) NCState was suppose to but is too sick
    so he asked "Lucky Snuffy" to throw out for him...
    
    REK

    Redmen Phil,

    I will be working outta New Yaaaawk for the next few weeks, (since its
    now my territory, prolly even more) but me and my buds are cruising
    thru NY enroute to my marriage sentence, and we wanted to catch the
    Yanks on the 26th (Weds) of May, 1993.  Cannya tell me how I can get
    great seats?

    Thanks,

    Chip_GSH_Bach

      Buy them?

    I got quite a chuckle out of NY's selection to throw out the first
    ball.

Chip, write to da "BOSS" hisself. Not our "BOSS" but the Yanks' BOSS.
He susposed to be sucha kindly gent why he'd probably lay them on ya
as a  jail, I mean wedding present.....

mike    

So is Wade over the Mendoza line yet?

    
    
     A LITTLE OVER I BELIEVE .214
    
    CHAPPY

         <<< Note 45.33 by SALEM::DODA "Bill's Pork Parade Rolls on" >>>
                   -< Also known as the Pagliarulo line... >-
    
    Pags has a ring; Wade does not.
    
    Mark.

    
    YABBUT IS THIS DA DEBILS NOTE???????  DID I ACCIDENTALLY CROSS DA
    RIVER?
    
    I DON'T REMEMBER NO WATER SO HOW DID I GET IN DA DEBILS NOTE?????
    I THOUGHT I WAS IN DA YANKMEE'S NOTE!!!!
    
    SOMEBODY SNORTT ME, PLEEEEZE
    
    I REMAIN,
    LOST AND IN NEED OF ASSISTANCE
    KEV
    

    For those Red Sox fans out there, Wade Boggs was 4 for 4 today in the Yanks
    6-5 win over KC.
    
    Re: .28 - you should have no problem getting great seats for May 26.
    
    Redmen Phil
    

    
    
          Wade 0 errors yesterday
          Cooper 1...

Wade had no chances?

You know, Stevie-boy just doesn't seem to be hizoldself now that 
he's off the nose-candy...

daryll

    
    Hey, TCM, have you settled up on that foolish Yanks-Mets p-name bet you
    made yet?  Not even 25 games into the season, and I'd say your chances
    reside somewhere between nil and negligible.  Maybe if you plead guilty
    right up front you can get a reduced sentence on the plea bargain... 
    
    ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
              Oh no he won't!!!!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    Chappy

Darn right I won't!!!!!!!!

There are few things that are worse then WELCHERS!

The Crazy Met

    re: .46
    
    Mac,  that was toooooo funny to come from you.   Nothing like a gut
    bustin' laugh to start the afternoon off right.
    
    
    billl

can it Mac.

The Crazy Met

    
     Lighten up, Craze. That *was* a real knee slapper. 

    
    TCM should be happy there were no Marlin fans in here to bet with!
    
    brews

TCM is just in a little slump, just like his favorite baseball team - a TWO YEAR
slump, that is...

Trust me folks today is a REAL BAD day to be picking a fight.

fwiw my p_name bet record is 3-2 or 3-3.

The Crazy Met

>Trust me folks today is a REAL BAD day to be picking a fight.

Smile, TCM.

We're just joshin' ya, and if we cain't josh ya, who cain?


'Saw

    Cathmeister?
    

    
    
             Yo TCC, can you say 3-4.   :-)
    
    
    Chappy

    re: .56
    
    Don't count your chickens until they're hatched.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    No...
    
    She could turn the world on with her smile...

>    She could turn the world on with her smile...

And Murray rivaled Jake in the Solar Panel department too!


'Saw

    
      The man I love to hate, Wade Boggs, went 0 for 3 last night and 
     is now hitting .269. 

Bet Jimmy Abbott is having flashbacks....

    
     Wade Boggs, president and founder of The Wade Boggs Fan Club, went
    0 for 3 last night and is now hitting .259. Hee-hee.

>>     Wade Boggs, president and founder of The Wade Boggs Fan Club, went
>>     0 for 3 last night and is now hitting .259. Hee-hee.


	Tommy, you wouldn't happen to be the only other member would you?


	billl

|>>     Wade Boggs, president and founder of The Wade Boggs Fan Club, went
|>>     0 for 3 last night and is now hitting .259. Hee-hee.
|
|
|	Tommy, you wouldn't happen to be the only other member would you?


No.  There was this old lady (an Irene Ryan babe) next to me on the T
on Patriot's Day who was a big Wade Boggs fan.  Why she told me that
the Red Sox were doing so well because Wade had graciously left to go
to the Yankees!

She was a BIG fan.....


'Saw

    
    He's also got MAttingly using his power stroke.
    
    
    brews
    

    
    
         Mattingly hit a homer last night.
    
    
    
    Chappy

    
    Does that tie him with Wade, or put him ahead by one?

    
    Mattingly's basically been toast as a truly productive player for
    years now, but it's just taken Yankee fans longer to realize it than
    Sox fans with Boggs...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
        HERE WE GO.......
    
    
          Mattingly has had over 70 Ribbies in every year since he's been
    in the league except for the year when he only had 5 dingers and had
    back problems all year. 
    
            Boggs doesn't even rate close to Mattingly when it comes to
    productivity (runs produced). You ask any pitcher in the AL who they
    wouldn't want to face with runners in scoring position and with the
    game on the line, Mattingly would be one of the top five, while Boggs
    might be in the top 50!
    
           Than again a Red Sox fan wouldn't know a productive hitter if ya
    saw one cuz you aint had one since Jim Rice.
    
    Chappy

    MAC defends Wade.  Film at 11.
    
    MAC, face it, Boggs is a former womanizing twerp who's on the downside
    of a career, and only plays wif a Barbie Twin blow-up doll whilst on
    roadtrips these days.
    
    Schnorttt Schittt Schleppps
    
    JaKe
     

  >  Mattingly has had over 70 Ribbies in every year since he's been
  >  in the league except for the year when he only had 5 dingers and had
  >  back problems all year. 
    
    Wow!  A whole 70 RBIs, all except one year (actually two), from the #3
    man in the batting order!  You might have to hit .280, 10 HRs
    (Mattingly's average numbers the last three years) to pull off that
    incredible feat.
    
  >  You ask any pitcher in the AL who they
  >  wouldn't want to face with runners in scoring position and with the
  >  game on the line, Mattingly would be one of the top five, 
    
    Not.  Nobody fears a singles hitter batting .250.  
    
  >  while Boggs
  >  might be in the top 50!
   
    At this stage of his career, true enough, and I guess the Yanks will
    just have to deal with that.  Still putting up that ~.400 OBP, though,
    so Don can get his 70 RBIs.
    
    glenn
    

    Any coincidence that Mattingly's rbis went down right after Rickey
    left?

    
    
    
           Mac, Intentional walks aren't exactly productivity. Especially
    when guys like Greenwell and Clark et al.. can't get you in. I define
    a productive hitter; A hitter who can knock in runs. If'n you got a 
    .400 OBP you should be scoring alot more than 80 - 90 runs per year
    Which Wade doesn't,didn't,couldn't average.
    
          Re -2
            A singles hitter?  Could you tell me who has had the most
    doubles in the majors in the last 10 years? Hint... #23
    Plus he's been averaging 35 over the past 5 years even with an injury
    plagued year in there.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    > Mac, Intentional walks aren't exactly productivity. Especially
    > when guys like Greenwell and Clark et al.. can't get you in. I define
    > a productive hitter; A hitter who can knock in runs. 
    
    So what's Mattingly's excuse these days?  He's up there swinging at 
    everything, getting his nearly *650* ABs a season, and driving in runs
    with less efficiency than, say, Tom Brunansky did last year.
    
    > If'n you got a 
    > .400 OBP you should be scoring alot more than 80 - 90 runs per year
    > Which Wade doesn't,didn't,couldn't average.
      
    Hmmm, I guess those 7 straight 100+ run seasons were a figment of our
    imaginations.
    
    > A singles hitter?  Could you tell me who has had the most
    > doubles in the majors in the last 10 years? Hint... #23
    
    Wrong!  Boggs had more doubles than Mattingly, by a large margin.  Give
    it up, Chap.
    
    glenn
    

|    > A singles hitter?  Could you tell me who has had the most
|    > doubles in the majors in the last 10 years? Hint... #23
|    
|    Wrong!  Boggs had more doubles than Mattingly, by a large margin.  Give
|    it up, Chap.
    
Cain't wait for the spin control on this one.......    

    
    
    
    > Maybe not, but it does shoot holes in your theory that Wade Boggs is
      barely in the top 50 in terms of hitters most feared by pitchers. 
      If they weren't worried about him getting a run producing hit, then
      why are they walking him intentionally?
    
    
       Boggs did get alot of intentional walks but most of them came 5 yrs
    ago.  The only mangaer to intentionally walk Boggs over the last couple
    of year was Sparky Anderson.  And he'll walk anybody intentionally to
    set up the rigthy lefty thang.
    
    Jerry

    
    
       Glen could you post those double #'s you say are correct. I based my
    statement on a comment made by an ESPN announcer lasted week. He said
    and I quote. "noone had more doubles than Donnie Baseball in the
    1980's".
    
       I got Boggs with 410 Doubles in the past 11 years. I can't find
    Mattingly Card. Someone wanna help?
    
    
    Thanks Chappy 

Why not walk Boggs? With his speed it's a quaranteed DP.....

mike

    > Glen could you post those double #'s you say are correct. I based my
    > statement on a comment made by an ESPN announcer lasted week. He said
    > and I quote. "noone had more doubles than Donnie Baseball in the
    > 1980's".
    
    He was wrong:
    
    		Career 2Bs	1980s 2Bs
    Boggs	   422		   314
    Mattingly	   363		   272
    
    
    And for your claim about producing runs:
    
    		  R	RBI	RP (R + RBI - HR)
    Boggs	1067	687	    1669
    Mattingly	 808	913	    1529
    
    
    Boggs has produced 140 more runs than Mattingly in his career even
    though a leadoff hitter is penalized more in RBIs than a #3 hitter is
    in runs.  Matter of fact, walks and all, Boggs was better at driving 
    in runs in the 1980s than any other leadoff hitter in baseball, 
    including Rickey Henderson.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
         Is this Rotisserie RP's? So Mattingly is punished for hitting
    homers? Put that number in there without minusing the Dingers. Glen
    who would you want on your team in his prime (honestly).
    
    
    Chappy

    Donnie Baseball?
    
    That's enough to make even a Mutts fan sick. Talk about NY hype
    
    MikeL
    

    
    Why wouldn't you subtract HR's in RP stats?  You don't want to count
    them twice.  Maybe if we count them 3 or 4 times Mattingly could catch
    up to Boggs?
    
    brews

re:.84

When it has to do with the Yankees,
Mets fans get sick at much less than Donnie Baseball.

The Crazy Met

>         Is this Rotisserie RP's? So Mattingly is punished for hitting
>    homers? Put that number in there without minusing the Dingers. Glen
>    who would you want on your team in his prime (honestly).
    
    
That is a STANDARD forumla for Runs Produced.  Look it up in Total Baseball.

You subtract the homers, otherwise that particular runis counted "twice".....


Chappy, I'd highly recommend getting "Total Baseball" or another book like
that and keeping it right close to your terminal....8^)

'Saw

    Chappy's right that Runs Produced (while calculated correctly) is a
    pretty bogus stat as far as stats goes, but he could have easily added
    runs and RBIs together and seen that Boggs still came out ahead.  And
    like I said, that's with the severe disadvantage of Boggs hitting out
    of the leadoff spot for most of his career.
    
    Who would I rather have in his prime?  If you're talking vintage 
    Mattingly, circa 1985, it'd be him.  If you're talking the entire
    1980s, it'd be Boggs.
    
    But this is irrelevant.  I was responding to the standard trashing of
    an over-the-hill Wade Boggs versus the daily Yankee worship services at
    the altar of Don Mattingly, who is (and has been, for most of the past 
    three years) a liability in the #3 spot in the batting order.
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    
            All right. I'll admit defeat. But I hate Boggs I've always
    hated Boggs(see 1986 sit down with 3 games left to win the batting
    title)and I always will hate Boggs. Boggs has always been selfish
    and only caring about his stats. Meanwhile Mattingly has been a team
    leader and a Much more productive hitter, IMO.
    
       BTW
            Add RP's + Rbi's -HR's +Gold Gloves + runs saved by stellar
    defense. Tell me what you get. :-)
    
            Re- Saw. On the Book Total Baseball. Yup I'll go right out and
    get it tonight. :-)
    
    
    Chappy 
    
         

    
    re .89
    
     You tell 'em, Chappy!!!

    
    
    
          Oh here we go. 

    
    > Meanwhile Mattingly has been a team
    > leader and a Much more productive hitter, IMO.
      
    Let's not forget that this team went nowhere.  If any of this feelgood
    stuff meant anything you'd think that the Yanks would have at least won
    one lousy division title fueled by Don's inspiration alone. 
    Ironically, I still like the Yanks to win the first title of Donbo's
    career in the very first year that the cancerous Boggs joins the team.
    
    glenn
    
                                   

Get out of town will ya Mac, first off a golden glover need to display
a bit more range than a snail caught in an oil slick so cancel out one
Mr. Boggs. He never deserve one.

Boggs sat out to save his title MAC, not rest for the playoffs give
us break will ya. He did it more than once. Thankfully he'll never
get the chance again........

mike

    
>>    OK, I'll give you that one.  Your obviously using the expert medical
>>  testimony of Dan Schneider.

 Are you accusing Dan of being less than truthful???

 

    I'm sure Dan believed every word he wrote.

    re .95
    
                      <<< Note 45.95 by NAC::G_WAUGAMAN >>>
      -< Which ought to tell you something about leadership qualities... >-

    
    > Meanwhile Mattingly has been a team
    > leader and a Much more productive hitter, IMO.
      
>>    Let's not forget that this team went nowhere.  If any of this feelgood
>>    stuff meant anything you'd think that the Yanks would have at least won
>>    one lousy division title fueled by Don's inspiration alone. 
>>    Ironically, I still like the Yanks to win the first title of Donbo's
>>    career in the very first year that the cancerous Boggs joins the team.
    
>>    glenn
    
    
    glenn,
    
    IMO, the fact that the Yanks haven't won a title has absolutely nothing
    to do with the leadership abilities of one Don Mattingly.
    
    During the mid-eighties, the Yankees had the most potent offensive
    lineup in baseball.  Their problem was a pathetic pitching staff! 
    Nothing Don could have done about that.
    
    I also suspect that if Mattingly hadn't had the back problems the last
    3 or 4 seasons, that he would have been ahead of Boggs in several of
    the offensive categories previously mentioned.  The back problems
    caused Don to adjust his swing, and he hasn't been the same hitter
    since.
    
     - Bob

    
    > IMO, the fact that the Yanks haven't won a title has absolutely nothing
    > to do with the leadership abilities of one Don Mattingly.
    
    Exactly.  Same as with Boggs and Clemens and all the others who are
    accused of "failing" because of their selfishness and egotism and all 
    those other negative qualities on the opposite end of the scale from 
    the noble Mattingly's.  I was being facetious; baseball games are
    not won in the clubhouse.
    
    > I also suspect that if Mattingly hadn't had the back problems the last
    > 3 or 4 seasons, that he would have been ahead of Boggs in several of
    > the offensive categories previously mentioned.  The back problems
    > caused Don to adjust his swing, and he hasn't been the same hitter
    > since.
    
    Boggs has suffered the same relative decline in almost an identical
    time period as Mattingly.  Still, that doesn't negate the original 
    point, which is that Mattingly has become relatively unproductive, 
    both for a 1B and a #3 hitter.  Why doesn't the selfless Mattingly 
    ask that he be removed himself from the heart of the batting order?
    Boggs has always been criticized for this kind of thing...
    
    glenn
    

    MikeyC
    While I'm not a dye in the wool Boggs fain, Ya gots to admit that the
    main worked his tail off to become a damn good dfensive third baseman
    in his prime, talemt notwithstanding. At a much tougher position at
    third than Donbo ( admittedly ain't too many places fer a lefty ta
    play if he's "got no range" besides first).
    
    I wonder when they had their first conversation in the clubhouse
    regarding '86 batting race?? 8^)
    
    MikeL
    

    Re:101 and if cows had wings they would fly! :-}
    History speaks for itself What ifs are for dreamers.....
    
    
    REK

    
    REK 
    
    get your metaphors straight - if pigs had wings they would fly.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

Well MikeL, that's not the way I see it. Wade started out horrible and
rose to a level of mediocrity and you guys think he deserves a gold
glove for that? While I'll be more than happy to give you the fact that
his glove work improved a great deal, his range got slightly better and
he never had a real gun IMO....

mike

In other news, Stevie-boy has been put on the DL due to soreness 
in his butt from his benchriding.

daryll

    
    How can you not blame Mattingly for the Yanks not winbning at least one
    pennant in the '80's.  He _personally_ guaranteed one when the Yanks
    signed Jack Clark.  What kind of leader is he, if he isn't a man of his
    word?
    
    I think Don should look at himself, and do what's best in the team. 
    Tell the coach he wants to move to a spot in the order comensurate with
    his abilities, like batting 2nd.
    
    brews
     

    Typically the manager decides the batting order. :-)
    
    Maybe, they just haven't had a better number 3 hitter the last few
    seasons?
    
     - Bob

does anybody know what happened to the yankee conference ?.. it was in 
my notebook last week, gone this week.  I get error message "remote node 
not known"
                                               thanks/mike

    
    It is still at shane::user2:[yankee]yankee.note; just checked it
    out and it looks fine. 
    
    See if your machine knows about node shane, it may have something
    messed up with its DECnet database.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Lots of activity here, huh?
    
    Heard George is looking to deal for McGriff.  If so, where does that
    put Mattingly?   Or would McGriff be the DH?
    

    
    
        Ha
    
         Mac your too funny.
    
    Chappy

    
    Yabbut yesttaday was Wade's 35th birthday

    Are the Yankees at home 6/28 thru 7/1?
    
    Mark.

    Yes, the Tigers come to town.
    
    Redmen Phil
             

    
    
         And now a letter.
    
    
         Dear John Olerud.
    
             Sorry to here about your hitting streak being stopped last
    night by the NEW YORK YANKEES. I really truly was hoping you would keep
    going and beat NEW YORK YANKEE Joe Dimaggio's record. Keep your head up
    John! You still can break Teddy whiffleBALGAMES .400 mark.
    
    
              Sincerely a fan.....
    
    
    
    Chappy

>             Sorry to here about your hitting streak being stopped last
>    night by the NEW YORK YANKEES. I really truly was hoping you would keep
>    going and beat NEW YORK YANKEE Joe Dimaggio's record. Keep your head up
>    John! You still can break Teddy whiffleBALGAMES .400 mark.
    
    
This letter is totally and completely illustrative of Chappy's poor 
attempt at being a feign.

Anyone who would refer to The Kid, The Splendid Splinter in such a manner
cannot be much of a baseball feign.


Despite the fact that I am a dyed in the wool Red Sox fan, I've always
admitted, loved, and held close to my heart, the following facts:


		o The GREATEST home run hitter of all time
		  was Babe Ruth

		o DiMaggio's hitting streak (which had the potential
		  to be 70+ games when you look at the 16 or so
		  games following the hitless one) is one of the greatest
		  accomplishments in baseball, to be revered by all
		  fans.

		o One of my all-time favorite ball players was Lou
		  Gehrig.


You don't see this Red Sox fan trashing any of those Yankee accomplishments
because the acheiver wore the dreaded pin-stripes......


Recant your statement Chappy, or we'll all know just how much of a 
faux-feign you are, wallowing in self-delusional fantasies, much the same
way a faux-feign of certain ACC hoops team does....


Capable of respecting baseball's top achievements,
'Saw


PS  It was .406

    
    
           Saw,
    
             I highly respect Teddy's .406 feat I was just trying to add a
    little humor and Whiffleball game was the first thing I thought of.
    .400 is an unbelievable season and I respect him for that. I can
    chuckle when they call Joe MR COFFEE.
    
    
    Chappy

 Hank Aaron was the "Greatest HomeRunner hitter of All Time"....

 mike for DR. 00:00:00........

    
    
    IIIIII don't think so (TIM)
    
    
    
    Chappy for AL.

Okay, Chappy....

	(Hmmppphhh, whiffleball INDEED!)

I got ya.  Mr. Coffee -- too funny.   What a summer that must've been,
in those quiet days before the war.  Ted hitting 40 percent of the time
and Joe hitting and hitting and hitting....  Wow.


Mike C --

	Hank Aaron was a great home run hitter.  He "hit" home runs.

	Babe Ruth CRUSHED them.

hth,

'Saw

Saw-

Hank Hammered them.  Different eras, different players.  Didn't Hank
get 3,000 hits (and also willie mays...) - give me those guys.  I've
always been a fan of Willie as the best.  Hit for power, average, speed
on the bases and a great fielder.  Hung on too long though.  His last
seasons were painful to watch.  Interestingly didn't all three
of them, Ruth, Mays and Aaron, do a farewell tour with teams in the
cities they started out with...

JD

Don't get me wrong.  Hank was great too, I just think of Babe as
overpowering that little ball....

(btw, the displays for both at the HoF are great)


Don't know about the farewell tours.  Babe's last seasons were back
in Boston with the Braves.....


'Saw

Right Saw

And Hammering Hank ended in Milwaukee and Willie with the Mets.

(Milwaukee/Atlanta Braves for Hank, and New Yawk/San Fran Giants
for Willie...)

JD

    That's true, I read it last night in "Hitter".  
    
    But, it doesn't take anything away from what the Yankee Clipper did.
    
    "Hitter" is a pretty good book, so far.  I've learned a few things that
    I didn't know, like Bobby Doerr and Williams came up to the Sox at the
    same time after having played together in the minors.  Doerr played his
    entire Sox career with Williams.
    
    And now, back to the Yankmees.
    
    Lee

    
    
     Yanks lead 4-0 vs Detroit today, on a Mike stanley Grandslam in the
    4th.  
    
         :^)
    
    
    Chappy

    Hey CHappy... Howsa Wade doing?
    
    REK

    
    
        He hitta uper deck dinger last night REK.
    
        But he still sucks!!!!!!!!!!
    
          How bout them sox? Oh yeah I forgot they're not winning so you
    don't like them anymore.
    
    Chappy

    
    
    
    
          YUP Yup yup!!!!
    
              Yankees in First place on my birthday.:-) It's been a long
    time since I could say that! Mattingly's on Fire. Over .400 in his last
    20 games, and over 20 ribbies. Get the P_name space ready TCC.
    
    
    
    Chappy

Chappy, Ididn't know you made a p_name bet with two people.

The Crazy Met

    
    
        Yo TCC I never called you two faced. :-)
    
    Chappy

All I know is that you have a bet with TCM. Since you expect some person, TCC,
to change their p_name I must conclude that you have multiple p_name bets
going.

The Crazy Met 

    
    
        Ok Sorry The Crazy Cub.
    
    
          Chappy

Nah, a joke is fine; but I seem to recall that once a p_name bet is paid,
then it is over, done with, finis.

The Crazy Met

    Chappy, please excuse Yoseff.  He is very touchy these days having to
    root for a team once known as the best in baseball keep falling further
    and further behind 2 expansion teams.

Thanks Mac for that spirited defense - did someone put something in your
coffee this morning???

The Crazy Met

Mac -

You are right, they were once the best in baseball - 1986 was the last time - won
a champeenship then.  Unlike a certain other team.  1918,

JD

JD, you're SOOOOO suspicious. WHat makes you think Mac was
being cynical??

The Crazy Met

    Is O'Neill platooning with Bam-Bam?  Is he hurt?

    O'Neill is fine.  He's getting all the time in LF, but for an occasional 
    rest.  And, he's hitting all throwers.
    
    Redmen Phil
    
                                        

   After watching the Yankees "fans" booing the Canadian national 
  anthem the other night and then pelting the Toronto outfield with
  bats, batteries and whatever else they could get there hands on,
  I hope Steinbrenner does move that team. And doesn't tell those
  animals where he's moved.

    	Come on Tommy, you know that fans are the same everywhere and they
    all do those things.  To say otherwise is ::SPROTS PoliticalIncorrectness!
	  	
    				/Don

    We don't have to worry about that anymore, /Don.  JD's gone.

   I can remember a few years ago, Dwight Evans saying that when he played
  right field at Yankee Stadium, he kept one eye on the game and one eye
  on the stands because he had had everything from whiskey bottles to buck
  knives thrown at him. If you throw something on the field at Fenway the
  whole section you're sitting in will point you out to security. If you
  throw something on the field at Yankee Stadium, the whole section will
  grade you on your marksmanship. Vince Coleman would be right at home in
  the House That Ruth Built.

    But aren't they milder in the bronx now than in the 70s wars between the
    Fisk-Lee Sox vs Munson-Nettles Yankees?  Watching Yanks/Jays the other
    night I didn't quite get that Zooey feeling about these 90s fans.
    
    b

    	That's true.  I hear they apologize now to a player after they hit
    him in the face with a 12 volt battery.  Very 90'sLike.
    
    				/Don

>   After watching the Yankees "fans" booing the Canadian national 
>  anthem the other night and then pelting the Toronto outfield with
>  bats, batteries and whatever else they could get there hands on,
>  I hope Steinbrenner does move that team. And doesn't tell those
>  animals where he's moved.

Hmmm, what a study in contrast.

Over the summer, for a little relaxation, I played with the Town Band
in my home town of Glastonbury.  The highlight of our final week of
rehearsing and concerts was the opportunity to play a combined concert
with a brass band from Glastonbury, England, who is over for an exchange
with G-bury's high school band.

The final part of the concert was played by the English Band, and they
were coaxed into a second encore by the rather large crowd on the Town
Green.   By the time they hit the third note, I knew it was "God Save
the Queen", and stood up.  Everyone else in the crowd stood up too.
(They then did a really nice rendition of "The Star Spangled Banner").


I cannot conceive of someone booing someone else's National Anthem.
It's horrendously poor form.


'Saw



PS  I agree about the fans in Fenway pointing out the perpetrator.....

>    
>    Everybody probably thought it was "America".
>


One dork in the back might have thought that, but they had a lot of
non-players who made the trip, and they were out there on the green
enjoying the nice summer evening.  They of course sang the right words
for the occasion.

What I found interesting was the way they played our national anthem.
They played it with a lot of respect, reverence and care, which we don't
usually, since we're so used to playing it.....  It almost sounded different.


'Saw

   Actually, booing the Canadian national anthen, although ignorant, is
  basically harmless. It's the chucking the bats and batteries and trying
  to intentionally maim someone just because he wears a Toronto uniform
  that is way over the line, IMO. They showed security dragging some of
  those animals out and I'll tell ya, they could not pay me enough to work
  security at Yankee Stadium.

    
    National anthems don't really belong at ballgames.  I don't mind it,
    and usually some kind of a patriotic feeling will come over me while
    standing at attention for a well-performed anthem, but there's really 
    no good reason to make such a patriotic connection to an athletic event 
    in the first place.  As such, when misplaced in this context, you have 
    the potential for this kind of abuse of the anthem.  I agree with Tommy, 
    sticks and stones and all that, but apparently as we saw with the 
    accidental upside-down display of the Canadian flag in last year's 
    World Series, Canadians take this kind of thing very seriously, because 
    they are generally more respectful of such institutions than Americans.  
    All the more reason to just remove them...
    
    glenn
      

     >> but apparently as we saw with the accidental upside-down display 
     >> of the Canadian flag in last year's World Series, Canadians take 
     >> this kind of thing very seriously, 

        They might not have taken it quite so seriously, if the incident
        hadn't been preceded by articles in Atlanta papers about keeping
        the World Series trophy here in the States. I'm sure they dismiss
        the booing by Yankees fans as the rantings of lunatics.      

    
    Imagine how much he'd make serving us at a Pats' Day game.
    
    

  Yeah but, Slashman when was the last time anyone tipped a security guard?
 Those are the guys that really have to wrestle with all the mental defect-
 ives. You eother have to be a sadist or an idiot or desperate to take a job 
 like that.

>  Yeah but, Slashman when was the last time anyone tipped a security guard?
> Those are the guys that really have to wrestle with all the mental defect-
> ives. You eother have to be a sadist or an idiot or desperate to take a job 
> like that.

Nonsense.  It's a great way to stay in shape, keep your reflexes honed.
I mean, the pay is terrible, but those are some fine fringe benefits.

Plus, you get that neat uniform, you know, where the jacket is too tight
and the pants are prone to splitting....


Actually, though, I hear you.  I'd rather bounce in a bar, than be a
security guard at a stadium....


'Saw

>  they could not pay me enough to work security at Yankee Stadium.

Have you ever been to Yankee Stadium ?  By your comments, my guess is "No".
I've been there many times, have never witnessed bats, batteries, etc. being
thrown at players, nor have I seen these "animals", as you call them.  I've
taken my kids there (ages 8 and 10), and always felt comfortable, and never
in danger.

These incidents at Yankee Stadium do happen (every 5 yrs or so ?), but for you
to generalize to make it sound like you're not safe going there for a game,
is ignorant.

Now let's talk about sacred Fenway Park and its better-than-the-rest faithful...
As a Yankee fan I've been physically threatened...I've seen the NYPD carry
their banner through the stands and get pelted with beer and anything else
Boston fans had in their hands....and let's not forget the kind-hearted
who greeted Jim Eisenreich in the OF during that one summer series.

    Re: animals
    
    That's why the NY Thugs(tm) are so embraced by the animals.  They fit
    right in.

  >> I've been there many times, have never witnessed bats, batteries, 
  >> etc. being thrown at players, nor have I seen these "animals", as 
  >> you call them.  

     Watch ESPN and you'll get to see it on a regular basis. It may not
     happen every game but neither is it a rare occurence. And if some-
     one throws an object at another human being with intent to maim, in my 
     book that makes them an animal.

  >> These incidents at Yankee Stadium do happen (every 5 yrs or so ?), but 
  >> for you to generalize to make it sound like you're not safe going there 
  >> for a game, is ignorant.

     When SPORT magazine rated the ML baseball parks, Yankee Stadium and
     Shea finished DEAD LAST. One of the reasons given was that "you take
     your life in your hands" when you go to a game. I guess they're just
     ignorant, too. Huh? I'm afraid these incidents happen just a little
     more frequently than you'd like us to believe. And you never see these
     types of things elsewhere. 

  >> Now let's talk about sacred Fenway Park and its better-than-the-rest 
  >> faithful... As a Yankee fan I've been physically threatened...I've seen 
  >> the NYPD carry their banner through the stands and get pelted with beer 
  >> and anything else Boston fans had in their hands....

     And anything else? Like what? Programs? Newspapers? In all the Yankee-
     Sox games that I've been to at Fenway the worst I've ever seen is a 
     paper cup war, a fist fight or two but never anyone chucking bats and
     batteries at players. If Boston cops would have marched through the 
     bleachers at Yankee Stadium with their banner they would have gotten a
     lot worse than pelted with beer. The security guards at Fenway call Yankee 
     fans "the worst" and "uncontrollable". 

      Any bad press they get is totally deserved. 

Great..lets rehash the my park is better than your park argument and the our
fans are better than your fans arguement for the n thousandth time.

BTW - I feel a lot more comfortable/safer in the kingdome than either Fenway or
NY stadium. It's the only place where the fans in a section will point out a
smoker to security to be escorted outside to the walkways (only place you can
smoke is outside).

If anybody ever got worked up enough to throw something on the field they'd be
looked at by the crowd as having something akin to 3 heads, green colored skin
and carrying a sign that said "martians rule!"


Metz 

>     When SPORT magazine rated the ML baseball parks, Yankee Stadium and
>     Shea finished DEAD LAST. One of the reasons given was that "you take
>     your life in your hands" when you go to a game.

Maybe you could provide their other measurement criteria ???  The above
statement is crap.  When was the last time we've read about murdered
fans at Shea or Yankee Stadium ???

It appears that you've answered my question, you've never been there.
So you're blowing-off about something of which you have no personal
experience/knowledge.  I've been there, and have never experienced
these incidents.  So based on my experience, they're not common, and
the large majority of fans at Yankee Stadium are NOT animals.


And Mr. Macneal, I am a Yankee fan, and I do have 2 experiences of
watching fans of the opposing team at Yankee games in NY which I'll
share with you.

One was in '75, Red Sox in town (at Shea, BTW), and they were on their
way to a double-header sweep of the Yanks.  We're sitting behind homeplate
and during the 2nd game, a Boston fan enters our section with his Red Sox
stuff on, and starts screaming "Yankees suck, .....".  I was surprised he
didn't immediately get the (*&( kicked out of him.  It wasn't until after
a few minutes of this provocation that he was finally silenced...his "B" cap
in pieces.

The other was at the '78 WS against the Dodgers.  I'm in the bleachers
(sitting next to my Red Sox fan buddy, who bought a Boston cap and
carried it around in a bag), and a Dodgers fan sitting about 15 rows
below us stands up every time the Dodgers do something great, and
curses the Yanks.  Nothing happens until about the middle of the
game, when he just wouldn't stop.

So in these 2 situations, just wearing the other team's stuff didn't
put them in danger, their mouth did.  I say, put on your Boston
uniform and go to Yankee Stadium in Sept and have a good time.
Drink your beer, clap politely and keep your mouth shut...just like
I do at Fenway.

                                 
> Maybe you could provide their other measurement criteria ???  The above
> statement is crap.  When was the last time we've read about murdered
> fans at Shea or Yankee Stadium ???
    
    Well, actually, in the wake of the Steinbrenner threats and in response 
    to the statement that no one has been arrested around the Stadium in 
    the past two years, I did hear someone on the radio the other day 
    challenging that claim with a question about a murder last year in one 
    of the parking lots on a game night, and the answer was that that crime 
    didn't count because it wasn't committed by anyone from the neighborhood 
    but rather by an *off-duty cop* who was in attendance.
    
> It appears that you've answered my question, you've never been there.
> So you're blowing-off about something of which you have no personal
> experience/knowledge.  I've been there, and have never experienced
> these incidents.  So based on my experience, they're not common, and
> the large majority of fans at Yankee Stadium are NOT animals.
    
    I've been there; I've rooted for the Red Sox and worn a Red Sox cap,
    and I've also been "physically" threatened verbally, but at the same
    time I didn't feel at all unsafe.  It might have been rude, but it 
    wasn't serious.  Hey, it's almost part of the fun.  But don't
    underestimate the almost unique mob mentality of Yankee Stadium under 
    some special circumstances, like with this Toronto game, even if it's
    not common.  When it happens, apparently it explodes.  I would not 
    have wanted to have been decked out in full Blue Jays garb during that 
    one, if for no other reason than the level of abuse you'd take, however
    non-violent.  The biggest disadvantage is that unlike being a Yankee fan 
    at any other road ballpark, including Fenway, if you're rooting for the
    opposing team in Yankee Stadium you're in a very small minority.
    
> So in these 2 situations, just wearing the other team's stuff didn't
> put them in danger, their mouth did.  I say, put on your Boston
> uniform and go to Yankee Stadium in Sept and have a good time.
> Drink your beer, clap politely and keep your mouth shut...just like
> I do at Fenway.
    
    Obviously you are in the category of the commendably well-behaved, Joe.  
    At every Yankee game I've ever been to at Fenway there has been a large
    and vocal Yankee contingent (nothing wrong with that in itself).  Chants 
    of "Boston sucks" have been a good rival for the hometown "Yankees suck" 
    refrain.  As I said previously, that's the main difference between an
    opposing fan in New York versus Boston.  Luckily, in recent years 
    the Red Sox have at least been able to hold their own on their home 
    turf to keep most of the really obnxoious Yankee fans at bay.... ;-)
    
    glenn
    

    
    
           Well let me see in all the Yankee Sox games I have been too in
    Fenway lets see what has happened.
    
    1 Yankee Hat stolen  12$
    2 Beer spilled on my head. (hadn't said a word Yankees were down 8-0)
    3 My Brother was hit with a shoe. (he's an A fan mustta been throwing
    at me)
    4 Dave Winfield was pelted by a golf Ball. (Of course the Boston Media
    didn't feel it was worth talking about the next day)
    5 Some guy tried to punch Reggie Jackson as he was catching a ball in
      the Right Field corner.
    6 And have been Verbally abused (Even with a 8 year old beside me)
    
    
        Last year me and 12 Red Sox fans went down too Yankee Stadium on
    Opening day. Not one of them were molested there was some good natured
    ribbing but nothing harmful. One of them wore a Clemens jersey, he got
    alot of yelling in his ear on the way out but no harm.
    
         Give me a break fans are fans.
    
    
    Chappy
    

     Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I didn't mean to start a LDUC [ha!] about 
    whose stadium is better or which fans are better and not just 
    because there's no argument. The issue isn't Fenway vs. Yankee 
    Stadium. The issue is the idiotic behavior of several (notice
    I didn't say "all") morons. I also never said that there aren't
    any idiots at Fenway either just that we never see incidents of
    that magnitude at ANY other stadium. "ANY" as in not in Milwaukee
    or LA or Baltimore only Yankee Stadium. Given the heatedness of the 
    rivalry between the Red Sox and the Yankees I'd expect incidents
    like those that have been listed here when those two teams meet.
    But what is Toronto's crime? To be in first place while the Yankees
    are in second? Fans may be fans but idiots are idiots and Yankee
    Stadium seems to have more than their fair share.

Column in the NYT yesterday blasted the fans at Yankee Stadium for
booing the Candian national anthem; it also properly lambasted Coleman
and the Mets handling of the situation. Good column.

The Crazy Met

fwiw back in 1978 I was at a Red Sox-Yankees series in Yankee Stadium in 
August. That was the night they concluded a suspended game and then played
the regular game - Red Sox won both. Since I intensely dislike the Yankees
I had a Red Sox hat on and carried a Red Sox pennant. I was left alone, no
verbal or physical abuse other than the usual good natured kidding.

The Crazy Met

    
>    I also never said that there aren't
>    any idiots at Fenway either just that we never see incidents of
>    that magnitude at ANY other stadium. "ANY" as in not in Milwaukee
>    or LA or Baltimore only Yankee Stadium.
    
    In rare instances, I have seen such incidents elsewhere.  Most 
    recently, I've seen it in Philadelphia and I've seen it in Cincinnati, 
    on that night when the lovesick-blinded Reds fans showered the field,
    umpires, and opposing players with debris after their "hero" Pete Rose
    assaulted an umpire.  This kind of thing used to be a lot more common
    than it is today, actually.  Disliked players like Pete Rose and Reggie 
    Jackson getting pelted with objects in opposing outfields around the 
    league used to be relatively commonplace.  There may be some who go 
    back a little farther than I who can comment otherwise, but I can't 
    recall anything of that magnitude at Fenway, although there have 
    definitely been the wackos here and there who have thrown golf balls, 
    etc. 
    
    glenn
     

Note 45.170                   New York Yankee Note                    170 of 175
WMOIS::CHAPALONIS_M "No.3 looms over Fenway....."    26 lines   5-AUG-1993 09:00
                -< BTW Joe Carter needed to be ENERGIZED  :-) >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
*           Well let me see in all the Yankee Sox games I have been too in
*    Fenway lets see what has happened.
    
*    1 Yankee Hat stolen  12$

Why didn't you go after it?

*    2 Beer spilled on my head. (hadn't said a word Yankees were down 8-0)
That happens at a lot of cook-outs etc., Next time don't leave your beer
on top of your head while at the head...

*    3 My Brother was hit with a shoe. (he's an A fan mustta been throwing
*    at me)
Are you sure it wasn't Rivera throwing from SS?

*    4 Dave Winfield was pelted by a golf Ball. (Of course the Boston Media
*    didn't feel it was worth talking about the next day)
Hey, everytime former Prez Ford hits someone on the golf course the
media dosn't talk about it either.

*    5 Some guy tried to punch Reggie Jackson as he was catching a ball in
*      the Right Field corner.
Billy Martin does not count here......

*    6 And have been Verbally abused (Even with a 8 year old beside me)
Next time tell your kid that  if s/he uses that language again you will 
leave the kid home.....
        
*        Last year me and 12 Red Sox fans went down too Yankee Stadium on
*    Opening day. Not one of them were molested there was some good natured
*    ribbing but nothing harmful. One of them wore a Clemens jersey, he got
*    alot of yelling in his ear on the way out but no harm.
 
Next time trying going on opening day for BASEBALL and not opening day of 
spring training....
   
*         Give me a break fans are fans.
 
You have got that right!!!!!!!!!!   
    
*    Chappy
 

REK   

    
    
        REK  :-)
    
    
            It was opening day not Spring training???
    
             Go back to your Red Sox Snide will ya.
    
                  Have you found a Bandwagon to jump on yet?
    
    
    Chappy

    Chapstick, I'm still waitung until the Red Sox do 3 things...
    1. New Ball park
    2. New Ownership
    3. New G.M.
    
    Until then I'm not jumping on any bandwagon... But I am getting a lot
    of pleasure of watching the Braves CHOKE bigtime in the NL west. The
    "best" starting pitching in years and they can't win their own
    division..... I LOVE IT!!! 
    
    REK

Be even better if the Yankees lose to Toronto today. Losing 3 of 4 in
NY would be nice to see.

The Crazy Met

winning 16 out of the last 17 is choking REK?????
Giants just refuse to slowdown thanks to the "best player in baselball"...

mike

    Yeah, after all the hype and build-up the Braves have put out. They
    choked earlier in the year and now don't have enought time/games left
    to make it up....
    
    REK

    
    
       Best Player in Baseball talk int THE YANKEE FILE????
    
         You must be talking about Donnie Baseball.
    
    
    Chappy

He used to be Chappy and I used to have a full head of hair....now neither
of us have either....

;^)

    Hey CHAPPY, you seem to have forgotten about all the fights in the
    stands that, opening day. Surely you remember the one in the left field
    upper deck that lasted for one and a half innings. Also I don't know
    about you but I got a lasting impression of the animals at Yankee
    Stadium that day, I do admit that maybe it was not a good idea to walk
    in there with a RED SOX hat and Clemons jersey on. So maybe I was
    asking for it a little. But at the and of the game as we were walking
    out I had a couple of morons walk up to me and scream in my face-
    BOSTON SUCKS!!!.
    
    Now I know that Red Sox fans are not angels but I don't remember ever
    seeing anything like that at Fenway park, or anywhere else for that
    matter, and I have been to probably a 150 or so games in my life.
    
    FAST EDDIE
    

  "All the fights in the stands"? Morons screaming in your face "Boston
  sucks!!!"? Yeah, that sounds like a real family-type atmosphere you guys
  got there in Yankee Stadium. Manson family that is. Of course, these are
  just more isolated incidents that happen once every five years or so.
  I'd pick my nose with a straight razor before I'd drive four hours to 
  sit in that zoo.

	I can't believe I'm going to say something that could be construed 
as a non-negative comment about anything connected with the YankMees but 
here goes.  I was at the Stadium in 1981 for a Sox/Yankees game a couple of 
weeks after the strike.  Very few folks at the Stadium and most of them 
die-hard baseball fans.  No problems and lots of the Yankee fans were 
actually rooting for Bobby Ojeda to get the no-hitter that Rick Cerone 
broke up in the ninth.  Course that was then and this is now.  

	The Ueberoth years changed the nature of the ballpark crowd forever.  
Old Pete was interested in filling stadiums and selling merchandise and didn't 
care who was doing the filling or buying.  I remember a promotion for a 
Yankee/Red Sox series in the middle to late 80's on channel WPIX that made 
it sound as if New York were about to declare war on Boston.  Now what kind 
of crowd do you think this is going to attract?  George and baseball 
probably didn't care as long as they bought beer and spent plenty of money.

	Boston probably isn't as rabid as New York, but the reason I've 
stayed from Fenway the past few years is that I don't have a good time at 
the park.  Back in the late 60's/early 70's you had more baseball fans there 
than you do now.  It's why I love going to McCoy.  Course that may all change 
as the marketing types are greedily eyeing minor league baseball as a source 
of increasing revenue.  There is talk of expanding McCoy and I know what's 
next, the Fenwayization of the place.  8^(

				/Don                

> It's why I love going to McCoy.  Course that may all change 
> as the marketing types are greedily eyeing minor league baseball as a source 
> of increasing revenue.
    
    It's already there.  It may have nearly peaked.  Baseball at the AAA
    level has already reached the point where many rosters are filled with
    nicely-paid veteran players who just couldn't make the jump, but have
    hung on because the pay is good and the teams want to win.  I think
    you've got to go to AA now to get what AAA used to be not that long ago.  
    Myself, I wish there were a nice high A-ball club conveniently located 
    nearby.  *That's* where the fun is.  *All* young kids, no hangers-on,
    the first experiences of future big-leaguers, and very little yuppie
    merchandising appeal.  Unfortunately, the closest thing we've got to
    any A-ball around here is the New York-Penn League, and that's only
    half-season rookie ball, and is too far away.
    
    glenn
     

    
    Yabbut speaking of a nice place, what's the latest with George S. and
    his threats to move across da river to Noo Choisey if NYC doesn't build
    him a new stadium?
    
    mindless and all that!
    
    I remain,
    afeared NY's gonna become a ghost town!
    Kev
    

    High A-ball = AA right ;^)
    
    Yeah, I think one of the rumors has New Britain coming to Worcester. 
    They'd have to put in a stadium.  There isn't anyplace in town
    currently that could house a team.  There's only 1 American Legion
    quality field and even that has drawn alot of criticsm.
    
    It's been a long, long time since pro baseball was in Wormtown.

  Why would they want to move out of New Britain? 

    Pirates had a team in Nashua until 1986.  Did they move it just because
    of financial reasons or were there other factors.  I believe it was
    double A.
    
    It appeared that attendance was a problem but a marketed team could be
    successful within 50 miles of Boston.
    
    Of course Holman is beginning to milk the profitable concert circuit so
    I'm not sure of a minor league team ever getting the dates again.
    
    b

    
>  Why would they want to move out of New Britain? 
    
    Fairly poor attendance, especially considering this is a Red Sox
    affiliate located in New England.  I think some of the attendance
    problems are attributable to a poor facility.  The 'Sawmain could 
    probably fill us in better on this...
    
    I enjoyed watching both the Nashua Angels and Nashua Pirates of the AA
    Eastern League.  Attendance wasn't even all that bad, either; I just
    think they got better deals elsewhere.  A few years back with some
    stadium improvements the city of Nashua had a shot at the Red Sox
    affiliate (from New Britain), and not going ahead with the expenditure
    at that time might have been one of the dumbest decisions they've ever
    made, given the minor league boom since then.  There's no question that
    a Red Sox farm team would thrive being located as close by as Nashua
    NH.  I believe that New Britain has renewed for 1994, but it'd be nice
    if Nashua threw in a bid for 1995 and beyond.  They have much less work
    to do with the stadium issue than Worcester.
    
    glenn
    

>    Fairly poor attendance, especially considering this is a Red Sox
>    affiliate located in New England.  I think some of the attendance
>    problems are attributable to a poor facility.  The 'Sawmain could 
>    probably fill us in better on this...
    
Depends on who you listen to.

The BritSox have been playing some horrendous ball lately, so only the
diehards come out.

The facility, which was wonderful when it opened 8-10 years ago needs
improvement, badly.   The lockerrooms are tiny and the facilities need
some work.

I think that the talk of moving is a gambit by Joe Buzzas (the owner)
to get the City of New Britain, who owns the park, to upgrade it.

I really don't see them moving.

If they start playing better ball, they will start getting better 
attnendance again.....


Glenn, let me know when you want to come down.  You're more than welcome
to stay over -- and it's a great little ballpark, even if it needs a bit
o' work.....


'Saw

    
> The BritSox have been playing some horrendous ball lately, so only the
> diehards come out.
    
    Yabbut, horrendous Red Sox farm teams are practically a built-in
    operating liability...  ;-)
    
> I think that the talk of moving is a gambit by Joe Buzzas (the owner)
> to get the City of New Britain, who owns the park, to upgrade it.
    
    From what I've heard this Joe Buzas character has something of a
    reputation as a sleazy operator, which explains this move talk.  He 
    owns minor-league teams all around the country, and was recently 
    responsible for deciding to move the Portland Beavers to Salt Lake 
    City, among other things.
    
> Glenn, let me know when you want to come down.  You're more than welcome
> to stay over -- and it's a great little ballpark, even if it needs a bit
> o' work.....
    
    Got a schedule?  Are the BritSox home the weekend of Aug 28-29, or
    Sept 11-12?  Anyone else interested?
    
    glenn
     

  Please take all this talk to the appropriate note and leave this one for
 discussions of wanton fan violence and boorish owners.

    
    Glenn, let me know when you want to come down.  You're more than
    welcome to stay over -- and it's a great little ballpark, even if 
    it needs a bit o' work.....
    
    	
    	Well, thanks guys, but I don't even remember wanting to see
    	anything.  You EastCoast folks are just so damn nice!
    
        Live from Charger Central.......Glenn
    
    

>  Please take all this talk to the appropriate note and leave this one for
> discussions of wanton fan violence and boorish owners.

It doesn't excuse the acts of those that threw things at Carter, but
an interesting note on the events that led to the incident:

	Before the game a young girl (sitting in RF somewhere) asked
	Molitor to sign a ball she had, and he did.  When she asked
	Carter, she tossed it to him, and he threw it into the infield,
	and then turned to the fans and smirked.  Bright move.

  Where did that story come from?

    
    We're talkin' a vocal minority acting up at both ballparks(all
    wearin' Yank caps of course! 8^)
    I've been to both stadia and saw no major outbreaks, just minor
    flare-ups. 
    I was at a Yank-Sox game in the Bronx and had a ball. I was working
    for Nynex then and about 15 of us sat in the right field bleachers,
    nosebleed territory. It was an electric September of '86 Saturday,
    with the Sox closing in on the pennant and the Yanks the spoiler.
    We had amixed group of Yank-Bosox fans and were giving each other
    duff all day. Got into it with the rest of the section but it was
    all good-natured. Only invective sent our way was from some
    exasperated Yank fans below who thought the beer vendor was giving
    us much better service than they.  They were correct... when you're
    buying 20 beers at a time and tipping well, what the hail did they
    expect!
    
    And where else but outside the Bronx Zoo can you see comedy at its
    best... the conversation between the people going to the game and
    the inmates at the holding jail was priceless!
    
    MikeL
    

   > Where did that story come from?
    
    
    The mind of a very inventive Yankee PR guy.
    HTH
    
    brews

    Yabbut I remember, before I moved up here to 'assachusetts, one
    incident at yankmee stadium when the "locals" in the upper deck 
    tossed somebody over the side!
    
    I remain,
    figuring he had a great trip but a lousy fall!
    Kev
    

	>Where did that story come from

	First of all Molitor was DH that night, he never even got close to
	
	Right Field.

	Second the incident happened in the 9th inning after Joe hit a home

	run.

	When people make up lies they sould at least be believable.

	Nadeem

a bit touchy today, aren't we - and this after a win. :-)

The Crazy Met

  Well, I guess Nadeem poked a big danged hole in that little fairy tale.
 Now didn't he?
 

    Who are you calling touchy, TCM?

Mac,

author of .206


Don't worry Bill no SDUC today.

The Crazy Met

    Re:206... It was in batting practice not during the game...
    
    REK

Remember that game show they used to have on, called "Grudge Match",
with John Pinette as the referee?

The "contestant" had grudges against each other and they'd have to do
all of this stupid stuff to each other....

well, I nominate Mac and TCM for the next version of that show 8^) 8^)



Yanks won last night 8-3, so I guess you could say that tonight is the
rubber match.....


'Saw

	Any of yunz gonna be at the game tonight?  A friend of mine came
	up with four.  We'll be sitting in section 23.


	billl

    
    >	Any of yunz gonna be at the game tonight?  A friend of mine came
    >	up with four.  We'll be sitting in section 23.
    
    If the weather holds, I'm probably going to go down with my daughter
    again and scrounge for one.  Got your row number, if I end up in the
    vicinity?

    glenn
    

	Just called him and our tickets are in section 30, row 4.

	Hope the weatherman cooperates!



	billl

    Bill,
    	your all set if your in Section 30 row 4 because your 3 rows
    under the overhang.  2 of the next 3 sections are non drinking
    sections, and the men's bathroom and beer stand are right at the 
    bottom of the ramp.  I sit in section 31 row 4 and will be there on
    Saturday.  Anyone else going on Saturday?
    
    Jimbo

  In today's Globe Pats coach Bill Parcells says, "I wouldn't root for 
 the Yankees if they were playing Poland." Apparently, the reason he so 
 dislikes the Yanks, is be caus eof his father who Parcells calls, "the
 most obnoxious Yankee fan in history." Uh, Bill? *Every* Yankee fan is
 "the most obnoxious Yankee fan in history".

    Texas leads the Yanks 4-2 in the 8th. Mattingly hit another homer.

    Final Texas 4-2.

    Yanks and Jays were tied going into tonight's game. Yankees had a game
    against Texas, Blue Jays had the night off. Yankees could finally have
    been in first place all alone. Yankees LOST! Kinda nice.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Any mention of the AL East Pennant race must include Baltimore which is
    the best team in the division when catcher Chris Hoiles is healthy.
    They've won 8 in a row. Even though I root against the Yankees,I must
    salute Jim Abbott for his performance on Saturday,Sept. 4.

    	This "race" is the antihesis of what's going on in the Real
    Baseball league's Western Division.
    
    				/Don

    I can't wait to see the Bosox fan's comments on yesterday's do-over win
    for the Yanks.
    
    Redmen (Yankee) Phil
                                                 

    
    
     Not really to much to say, it cost the Sox a win and kept the 
    Yank*ee pennant hopes alive for all of one more day until the
    Sox destroyed them yesterday.  I do feel bad for Tannana, he
    pitched well but the Yankee defense is really something to watch.
    
    Jerry

  I'd like to see some of the Yankees fans come back in here with their 
 ludicrous assertion that the crowds at Yankee Stadium are no different
 than those at Fenway. 

    
    
       Went down to the Games Saturday and Friday in the BRONX ZOO. :-)
    
       What a great 2 games to watch. Right behind the Sox dugout Friday
    night and 1st row behind the sox Bullpen Saturday afternoon. Scott
    Taylor will never forget me. I started calling him Opie and the whole
    section joined in. 9 guys ran on the field Friday night. 2 on Saturday
    those 2 on saturday got us a win.:-)
    
       55,000 on Saturday the place was rocking.
    
    
    Chappy

    
 > I'd like to see some of the Yankees fans come back in here with their 
 > ludicrous assertion that the crowds at Yankee Stadium are no different
 > than those at Fenway. 
    
    Bingo.  The game meant little to nothing to Red Sox fans at this point,
    but in the larger picture, once again Yankee Stadium fans covered 
    themselves in shame (final on-the-field body count for the four-game 
    series: *14*).  I was anxiously awaiting the apologistic, backtracking 
    comments of Yankee fans, myself...
    
    "What are you going to do about it?  Maybe the penalty ought to be
    more.  Put 'em jail or something.  I watched the news last night and
    this kid has been glorified.  What's to prevent some kid from maybe
    thinking he'll help out the Yankees someday?  [In Yankee Stadium] you
    don't know when somebody's going to run out of the stands with a knife
    in his pocket.  I don't have that fear in other ballparks like I do in
    Yankee Stadium."-- Umpire crew chief Drew Coble
    
    glenn
    
    

  I read Chappy's note and I get the impression that he thinks that this 
 is funny somehow. It's not. Yankees fans may think that this animalistic
 behavior is part of the flavor of Yankee Stadium but what it really is is
 sad. It's sad that players and umpires and visiting fans can't feel safe.
 It's sad that idiots are lionized for disrupting a game. It's sad that in
 the midst of a pennant race in a close ballgame, Yankees fans aren't enter-
 tained enough by the play on the field, they need some whacko to give 'em
 their money's worth. Sad, sad, sad...

    It's more than sad it is pathetic. Yankees can't win it fair and square
    on the field so they don't do the manly thing of forfeiting the game,
    since there already was the 3rd out, but continue to play. I can see
    now why folks like Chappy are such big fans (.5 :-) on the last line)
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    
    
    
            It's SAD that some people take life too seriously.
    
    
    
    Chappy

    
    
          BTW Yoseff there was no 3rd out! Time was called before the pitch
    bud!. If Stanley would have hit a homer on that pitch, it still would
    have been played over.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    And Scott Cooper.
    
    
        BTW according to the NY Post. The fan that ran out on the Field
    was a Red Sox fan?
    
    
    Chappy

 please explain the situation on saturday for those of us who were busy
 elsewhere???????

 mike

    
    
    2 outs bottom of the 9th. Mike Stanley up. Harris goes into his windup
    a fan comes running out of the stands near the sox Dugout the 3rd base
    umpire calls timeout, the pitch is delivered Stanley flies out to Left.
    
         The play doesn't count and Stanley get a hit Boggs gets a hit
    Dion James is walked Mattingly smashes a hit into RF. Yanks win,Yanks
    win, Yanks win.....
    
    
    Chappy

    
    
         BTW Almost 200,000 fans attended the game this series and only 14
    ran on the field.
    
              Thats only .00007% of the people who interfered. :-)
    
    
    Chappy

  >> BTW according to the NY Post. The fan that ran out on the Field
  >> was a Red Sox fan?
    
     I doubt it. The kid was from Pleasantville, NY and was there with a
     church group. Maybe one of the other *thirteen* folks that ran out on 
     the field was a Sox fan but that still leaves your (and Mr. Garbarino's)
     statement that Yankee Stadium is no different than Fenway flapping in 
     the breeze. Bulldoze the place and move the team to Montana where folks
     know how to behave like human beings.
    

    
    
          So a kid from Pleasantville who belongs to a church group can't
    be a Sux fan?
    
    
    
    Chappy

   re .241

    Possible, Chappy but not likely. It doesn't even matter what the
   kid's favorite team is anyways. With every person who runs on the 
   field it just increases the probability that another nut will do
   it. Yankee Stadium breeds that kind of mob mentality. Fenway doesn't.
   14 people ran on the field this past weekend. I'd bet that 14 prob-
   ably haven't run on the field in Fenway in the last ten years. And 
   most of those were probably New Yorkers who thought that they could 
   behave like they were in Yankee Stadium. No wonder the Dodgers and
   Giants moved to California and the fottball Giants and Jets moved
   to Jersey.

    Steiny prolly slipped the kid a fifty, and cried "Move the Yanks!"...
    
    Chip_GSH_Bach

    I think you're giving Sox fans too much credit.  I've seen enough
    people get hauled out of there, big series or not... and, how many
    beach balls came out on the field at Yankee Stadium over the weekend?
    To me, there's no difference between the people on the field and
    stopping the play because a beach ball got loose.  If you threw people
    out for doing it, it would stop pretty quick...
    
    If Hobson doesn't want to admit time was called in time, he should tell
    Cooper to keep his mouth shut.  And tell CBS to stop showing the
    replays.  He should have protested the minute the play happened.  Why
    didn't he argue it after the game?  All I saw was the Yankees
    celebrating.  A protest shouldn't have been an afterthought.
    

Doesn't really matter anymore anyway does it?

Mattingly already made his yearly Oct 4th tee time reservation.

They count on it like clockwork over at the links....

daryll

             
>    To me, there's no difference between the people on the field and
>    stopping the play because a beach ball got loose. 
    
    Really, huh?  I've never seen a beachball capable of inflicting the
    harm that Mr. Coble correctly suggests is possible when you've got nuts
    (mostly drunken nuts) being encouraged by nuts to run onto the playing 
    field.
    
    Whatever, let the blinded Red Sox-haters come out of the woodwork on
    this one.  Fact is, it has nothing to do with the Red Sox or their
    half-hearted protest over the game, which no one including the Red Sox
    expects to be overturned.  Who cares about the game?  The umpires did
    all that they could under the conditions maintained by the Yankees. What's 
    relevant is the deplorable behavior that's been on display on a few 
    occasions already this season at Yankee Stadium; behavior that doesn't 
    appear to be such a commonplace concern at other parks, unless of course 
    you have a mortal fear of beachballs...
    
    glenn
    

  >> I think you're giving Sox fans too much credit.  I've seen enough
  >> people get hauled out of there, big series or not... and, how many
  >> beach balls came out on the field at Yankee Stadium over the weekend?
  >> To me, there's no difference between the people on the field and
  >> stopping the play because a beach ball got loose.  If you threw people
  >> out for doing it, it would stop pretty quick...
    
     Drew Coble doesn't feel that there's no difference between beach balls
     on the field and nuts loose on the field and I bet the opposing players
     don't either. How the hell do the umps and opposing players and security
     know what's on the mind of some sicko crazed enough to come running onto 
     the field. Most folks who are stupid enough to bring a beach ball to a
     baseball game do so because they aren't fans enough to be entertained
     by the game itself. Folks who go running out on the field have a mental
     disorder and are to be treated as dangerous and unstable. No comparison.
     And it has never been my assertion that there aren't any rowdies at Fen-
     way just that Yankee Stadium is in a class by itself when it comes to
     whackos at the ballpark.
    

    And since when should the home team be REWARDED for the inappropriate
    behaviour of their fans?

 Notes collision!

    
    
    
         They weren't REWARDED. Read my lips " A TIMEOUT WAS CALLED!"
    
    
         I believe when you call a Timeout play stops where it is!
    
    
    Chappy

    	Are we to believe that Drew Coble is a die-hard Sox fan?  I thought
    the only people who complained about the Bronx Zoo were either Sox fans
    or Yankee haters?  Either way if I were the Yankees, I would be filing
    protests for every game Drew umpired this year!
    
    				/Don

    	If Boggs' average continues down to say .301, will those hamstrings
    or knees, or ankles start acting up?  What would SnideAir say?
    
    				/Don

    Yanks had their best shot at postseason play in years.  Yanks sign
    Boggs over the winter.  Coincidence?

Tell you what Mac, eliminate Boggs and see how it effects the 
outcome. Now eliminate Key, Stanley, or O'Neill and get back to 
me.

Of course, that won't stop Wado from taking credit for it 
anyway.

daryll

  Yanks sign Boggs over winter. Yanks don't win Series. Coincidence?

    There's two issues here:
    
    1) Whether or not the Redsox/Yanks should be penalized because the ump
    called a timeout due to a fan interruption.  Bottom line is the ump
    called time because someone/something came onto the field.  It happened
    to be on a pitch that could have decided a game.  If it had been on a 
    home run or a ball or a strike, the Sox would not have protested.  The
    ump made the right call.
    
    To protest a game, I thought you had to do it at the point of the game
    where you feel the umpires were wrong.  Not after things occur in your
    favor or against you.  And not after your third baseman says "I heard
    him call timeout before he pitched the ball."  The ump made the right
    call.  If Hobson wanted to protest, he should have done it at the time.
    Harris only needed 1 out out of the next 3 batters...
    
    2) As far as fans vs. beach balls go.  Yes fans in NY are probably
    worse as far as being on the field.  I don't know enough about how many
    fights and ejections occur in the bleachers in NY, but Boston isn't
    exactly the most congenial in the world when you're in the bleachers.
    And yes, a beachball isn't the same as a battery or a drunken fan.
    But my point was that for every fan that comes onto the field in NY,
    generally there's a beach ball coming out of the stands in Fenway. 
    This weekend was worse in NY because of the pennant race and the
    rivalry.  But I find it hard to believe that in a typical series, 3-4
    fans come out per game.  I can remember 2-3 beachballs coming onto the
    warning track or whereever.  That was my point.  Do the outfielders run
    in fear of a beachball?  No.  Do it cause a disruption in the game to the 
    point where an out at the end of the game could be changed due to a time 
    out?  Sure.
    
    And remember, I'm a Tiger fan, so I have no bias as far as liking the
    Yanks over the RedSox on this one.  

hahahahhahahhhhahahahahahahahhhahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

  According to the Globe, you have to lodge a protest immediately following the
 play UNLESS it is the game ending play and then you have 24 hours. The jist of
 it, as I see it, is that the Yankees should not benefit because of their in-
 ability to control the crowd in their stadium. I know I rag on New Yorkers
 (it 's expected, I'm a New Englander) but in all seriousness the Yankees 
 have a severe crowd control problem and maybe taking this game away from them
 will give them a little extra incentive to do something about it.

    Ok, I didn't know it was 24 hours on the game ending play.  That makes
    more sense.
    
    How do you know the batter didn't see the ump call time out though?
    You can't take a game away for this.  You fine the team in the
    pocketbook.  It's the ownership that should pay, not the team in the
    standings.  You didn't forfeit Reds games when Marge shot (pun
    intended) off her mouth or people complain about the tomahawk chop.
    Hit them in the pocket book and George will help correct it.

 
    > To protest a game, I thought you had to do it at the point of the game
    > where you feel the umpires were wrong.  Not after things occur in your
    > favor or against you.  And not after your third baseman says "I heard
    > him call timeout before he pitched the ball."  The ump made the right
    > call.  If Hobson wanted to protest, he should have done it at the time.
    > Harris only needed 1 out out of the next 3 batters...
    
    Not that it matters, because this protest was raised to make a point
    with the league office about playing conditions (a commendable goal, in 
    my opinion) more than to change the outcome of the game, but the Red
    Sox' protest was made on the basis of two grounds inconsistent with your
    description above: 1) a protest may be issued even after the game has
    been completed if the protest involves a potentially game-ending play-- 
    because the game would have been over right at that point, the timing 
    of the protest is not critical (Rule 4.19 "A protest arising on a
    game-ending play may be filed until 12 noon the following day with the
    League Office"), and 2) the protest does not center around the question 
    of whether or not time was called (everyone agrees that it was) 
    which would be an unprotestable judgment call, but on the Yankees' 
    inability to control the crowd (Rule 3.18 "The home team shall provide
    police protection sufficient to preserve order...").
    
    The league is obviously not going to establish a precedent to be
    applied to all cases involving fan interference with a game in progress, 
    but given what went on all weekend long and the fact that this was a game 
    the Red Sox rightfully should have won, I have absolutely no problems 
    with them getting full mileage out of the league office on the matter.  
    If nothing else, they might get an apology and some future "assurances" 
    from the conspicuously silent George Steinbrenner (who's probably just
    working up another press release using this incident as yet more 
    evidence for the need to move to New Jersey). 
    
    You're really telling us that this being the Red Sox has no bearing on
    your opinion of the protest, Walt?  It's a pretty innocent thing;
    wanting the league office to review a matter, knowing full well that
    they won't do anything substantive.  It's a fairly important issue in
    my book...
    
    glenn
        

    
    I think George is happy to see ANY fans at the game, so he's not going
    to do anything to stop it unless he is forced.  Taking away a game that
    is now meaninglewss may be enough to push him.
    
    brews

    It really doesn't Glenn.  I'm not a Yankee fan, and I'm not a RedSox
    fan.  If it happened against the Tigers, I'd feel the same way. 
    Wouldn't be happy, but there's no other way they can call that and I
    can't see MLB changing it.  Have they changed a call like that since
    the Pine Tar game?
    

>    How do you know the batter didn't see the ump call time out though?
>    You can't take a game away for this.
    
    That's a good point, but I think it was fairly obvious in this case 
    from the replays that the batter was not distracted. Stanley later made no
    mention of any distraction throughout all of his joking about raising the
    required bail money for the kids.  The fan was only even approaching the 
    3rd-base line as Greenwell was catching the fly ball.  Hey, if this had 
    been an important game in a pennant race for the Red Sox, you better 
    believe that I would be making the same lament of "you can't take a game 
    away for this" from the other side.  I feel pretty confident that you 
    would not be adopting this philosophical "them's the rules" attitude if
    the Tigers had an important game snatched away, due to fan misbehavior of 
    all things (hardly an act of god or other unpreventable misfortune).  No?
    
    glenn
    

    
    > It really doesn't Glenn.  I'm not a Yankee fan, and I'm not a RedSox
    > fan.  If it happened against the Tigers, I'd feel the same way. 
    > Wouldn't be happy, but there's no other way they can call that and I
    > can't see MLB changing it.  Have they changed a call like that since
    > the Pine Tar game?
    
    I agree with you on your interpretation of the rules.  There's really
    not much that the league office can do to undo a wrong, in this case.
    But you really would be critical of the Tigers for raising the point 
    with the league?
    
    glenn
    

    
    
         Stanley said he knew there was a disturbances over near third when
    the pitch was being delivered, but it didn't bother his swing. Hey Sh!t
    happens folks.
    
    
    Chappy

    I'd say they can protest the game but I wouldn't expect much to happen.
    Whether they were home or away.  The right call is the right call...
    Just like when Shelby was kicked out when he went after Clemens with
    a bat...  Even if Shelby says he wasn't going to use it, I'd have made
    the suspension more severe...
    

    Hey this is just Red Sox's Yankee's Baseball... Now does anyone think
    this one game will make a difference for the Red Sox's in the end.  Hey
    maybe this will fire them up and actually lead to a few extra wins on
    a for effort :-)... The people who should be complaining the most are
    The Blue Jays and there fans, The Jays are up 4 on NY and 5 on balt,
    they should have a 5 game lead on both teams (and 8 on Boston instead
    of 9).  I dont think the Sox's are going to win it all, but if NY
    somehow manages to tie or win by 1 game Poeple will remember this game
    even more. (and knowing Boston Sports Luck, the Sox's will comeback to
    tie or lose to the jays by 1 game :-(   )
    
    								MaB
    
    They only showed the reply 1,867 times on sunday :-)

Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for the stiffs....

re:.272

Whats this with "color" in p_names. Karen, then 'Saw, who's next?

The Crazy Met

    Five more animals on the field in Yankee Stadium last night.  Judging
    from the camera shots of row after row of invisible Yankee faithless, 
    that number represented about half the paying customers.  Probably the
    only reason we're again hearing about these continued indiscretions is 
    because they involve New York, though, and because this is such a big 
    hypercharged midweek series with Minnesota that is receiving a lot of 
    national attention.  But, hey, no aborted plays this time.  Go back to 
    bed, Dr. Bobby Brown!
    
    Remember all that talk we were hearing a month or so ago about the Yanks 
    getting into the playoffs so that "Donnie Baseball" would finally get his
    much-deserved shot at the ring?  Why did all that talk die off suddenly
    over that period?  Maybe because since *August 20* Mattingly has hit .200 
    with one HR, a span over which the Yankees have gone 13-17?  That's
    rising to the occasion, all right.  Other than Mattingly's game-winning
    hit in that stolen, tainted win against the Red Sox, his contributions
    have been *nil* (and people were riding Barry Bonds for letting his
    team down, when his "collapse", as I suspected, actually amounts to
    hitting .293 since that last Braves' series ended 3 weeks ago, and .333
    since it started, with Bonds really suffering only in the RBI
    department due to an overall team breakdown at the top of the batting
    order).
    
    glenn
       

It will be fascinating to see how long Chappy will disappear for now
that the Yankees are basically out of it.

The Crazy Met

Sorry Glenn, but no matter how many times you bow down to his greatness
Barry Bonds ain't playing in Boston....

mike

    
> Sorry Glenn, but no matter how many times you bow down to his greatness
> Barry Bonds ain't playing in Boston....
    
    I know.  Sigh...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
           Chappy doesn't disappear TCW. I'm proud of how the yanks played
    this year. If they got some production from there lead performers,
    Tartabull, Donbo, Perez and Abbott. They would be in first. Bottom line
    is they are just 5 back with A week and a half to go, with a makeshift
    bullpen and a bunch of role players ie.Velarde,Leyritz,Gallego,Stanley.
    
           A year away with the Phenom Brian Taylor making his Bronx debut
    late next year and with Wickman,Jean and Hutton, we will have a
    starting staff that equals the Braves of this year.
    
        BTW have the Mets or Sox have any Phenoms in there farm system?
    
    And Glen I'll put my team leaders stats (MATTINGLY) vs your team
    leaders stats (CLEMENS) and we'll see what shakes out!
    
          Just think if Roger could only have pitched better the Sox would
    be in it. They are an organization on the downswing admit it.
    
          And the Mets...... Thats too easy. :-)
    

    
    
    
        BTW if Barry Bonds were in Boston, Where would Lou play him? :-)
    
    Chappy

    So has the curtain been drawn in Yankeedom yet?
    Will Schowalter return?
    Will Donbo return only to whimper away in September again next year?
    Is he the new Mr August?
    When will Wade officially begin "being distracted (hitting .250) in NY?
    Will Bob Lemon and Clyde King return to fawn over the Idiot?
    Will the Idiot hire Reggie Jackson?
    Will Yankee fans on the field continue to be glorified in the NY press?
    Will Bobby Brown stop kowtowing to the Almighty Pinstripe and grow filberts.
    
    MikeL
    
    

    
    
    
>>        BTW if Barry Bonds were in Boston, Where would Lou play him? :-)
    
  probably cover left and center by himself better than greenie and hatch 
  combined...........

    
  >  And Glen I'll put my team leaders stats (MATTINGLY) vs your team
  >  leaders stats (CLEMENS) and we'll see what shakes out!
   
    Good idea.  Let's start with WS and playoffs stats.  I Know Don's by
    heart.
    
    brews 
              

    
    
        Ah Brews I believe he was talking about Donbo's stats this year.
    
         But seeing you brought it up, how are Clemens's (i'm not shaking
    my Fu*&^ng head at you) stats for the ALCS?
    
    Chappy

    
    I don't know Clemens's [sic] stats.  Next time you spell it that way please
    cover your mouth, as it gets the inside of my screen wet with spit.
    
    As I said, though, I've got Mattingly's memorized.
    
    brews

                              
>    Just think if Roger could only have pitched better the Sox would
>    be in it.
    
    I keep hearing that but it's a questionable point.  There's no doubt
    that Clemens has had a terrible season, but I really don't think his
    average exceptional season would have kept the Sox in it this late. 
    We're talking 10 games to make up at this point.  Clemens would have
    had to have been something like 21-4 instead of his current 11-14 to 
    have made up those ten games by himself.  With this team's offense 
    *dead last* in run-scoring in the league, coming even close to that 
    record is just not possible (before you even consider that the 11-14 
    record was compiled with the worst run support on the team, by a full 
    run, at 3.1 runs/game one of the worst support numbers in the league). 
    Doesn't matter who's on the mound; you've got to hit the ball better 
    than that to contend.  Basically all this Clemens business does is 
    allow Lou Gorman to hide behind a phony excuse when the real issue is 
    why he couldn't put even a marginal team on the field.  The rest of 
    the pitchers covered for Clemens very admirably...
    
    > A year away with the Phenom Brian Taylor making his Bronx debut
    > late next year and with Wickman,Jean and Hutton, we will have a
    > starting staff that equals the Braves of this year.
    
    Chyeah, right.  By late next year Bob Wickman will be another Greg
    Maddux, no doubt.  Wild thing Mark Hutton another John Smoltz. 
    Hello...
    
    > BTW have the Mets or Sox have any Phenoms in there farm system?
    
    Already brought him up.  Name of Sele.  Aaron Sele.  Too bad one of
    the Yankee prospects didn't step up to the task like this kid did.
    Throw in just a hint of a pulse from Mattingly and Tartabull down the
    stretch and there wouldn't be any wild mighta-couldabeens...
    
    glenn
    

    
    
    Sele?
    
         How many wins does he have since he won his 1st six starts.
    
    Well Ok If you say Clemensessss 21-4 record wouldn't have kept Boston
    in it. Can I say Donbo's .330, 25 dingers, 120 ribbies, wouldn't have
    got us the Al East championship either.  I realize it's your rules Glen
    so if I can't say that I'll understand.(Blinders)
    
    
    Chappy

Sele's win total in his last 6 starts has little to do with how 
he's been pitching.

He left at least 5 of those games, maybe all 6, with a lead and 
the bullpen blew it. He's got a 2.73 era btw.

But, you knew that....

daryll

P.S. Are these the same type of phenoms we've heard about in 
years past? The Buhner, Maas type?

    
    
         No his name is Brian Taylor!  Remember it.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    Yeah, he'll be in the Hof induction ceremonies the same day as the next
    Mickey Mantle--BamBam Meulens.

    	Hey Chappy, the Sox tried to help your boys lasted night, but you
    can only help those who help themselves.  If you say the Sox stink, yet
    are proud of the way the Yankees have played you better check how many
    games are separating these two supposedly opposite teams.  Glenn makes
    a good point about Donny Baseball.  All these scribes who said "we'll
    see the real Don Mattingly now that the Yankees are in a pennant race"
    should belly up to the bar for a heaping portion of crow.  Step right
    up Mr. Lupica.
    
    				/Don

     <<< Note 45.287 by 16134::CHAPALONIS_M "The Crazy Met is a WELCHER" >>>
    
   > Can I say Donbo's .330, 25 dingers, 120 ribbies, wouldn't have
   
    Hey, at least I can remember Clemens going something similar 
    to 21-4. When was the last time Donny put up anything close to 
    these kinds of numbers?
   
    Who was the pope then?

    daryll

    
    
    87 86 85
    
    
    
    
    Chappy

Guess Donbo could put up those numbers when no one thought it mattered. The
minute it became evident that the Yankees might be able to win the division
it was too much pressure for him to bear.

The Crazy Met

    
    
         Yup whatever you say DARYLL. No matter what you think/say/believe
    he is still one of the most feared men in the league with runners on.
    
    
    Not as feared as Q or Pena or Greenwell or Cooper or Fletcher or
    Hatcher.....
    
            I'd put him right up there with Plantier though....
    
    
    
    Chappy

> I'd put him right up there with Plantier though....

and don't forget Bagwell.

HtH

The Crazy Met

>         Yup whatever you say DARYLL. No matter what you think/say/believe   
>    he is still one of the most feared men in the league with runners on.    
    
    If'n he scares the Yanks that much with runners on, why doesn't Buck
    pinch hit for him?  

    	Considering he's hit a robust .200 since August 20th it might not
    be a bad idea B.O.S.S.
    
    				/Don

    
    
        Just read throught this whole note. Do you guys realize we have
    talked about the same thing 3 times (Mattingly's hitting Prowess).
    
       BTW if you want to see something funny read note 45.45 and 45.136
    both by The Crazy Welcher. I thought they were interesting. Guilt by
    association?
    
    
    Chappy

    	Mattingly has hit .200 since August 20th...
    
    				/Don

		Hey!!!! Did somebody mention that Mattingly
		has only hit .200 since August 20th????

    
    Rumor is he's gonna get traded for Jim McMahon.  They're both equally
    injury-prone.
    
    brews

    
    
          Anybody know what Mattingly has been hitting since Aug. 19th?
    
    
    Chappy

    .206

    .206 is about Molitor???
    
    
    :-)
    
    Chappy

.45 is correct. of course I don't know of anyone who has welched in
the last week or two, so the reference is a bot of a mystery. but then
again you're a Yankee fan and know not what you do.

The Crazy Met

    C'mon Daryll, a battle for second place is as important a game as Don's
    ever been in. 
    
    brews  

I'm astounded that there has been no comment on Boggs sitting out yesterdays
game to guarantee himself a .300 BA. I seems to recall that there was much
moaning about him possibly doing so in 1986 to win the batting title. Is
it because he is now on the Yankees that we hear no such complaints???

The Crazy Met

    Boggs had an easy decision because the game was meaningless. He would
    have been available as pinch hitter if needed.

    	I think Wade should be commended for playing through the pain of
    his hurt hamstring/ankle/knee/back last week and just because his
    average didn't pass .300 until Saturday, it was just a coincidence.  
    Lord knows he deserved a day off yesterday!
    
    				/Don

    Slash,
    
    Was this the same hamstring/ankle/knee/back/groin/pinky/elbow/wrist
    that bothered him in '86??
    Imagine the pain this main has endured for nigh on 7 years, and only
    complaining twice.. last day in '93 and last few in '86.
    What a main!!
    
    MikeL
    

    But in '86 he could at least say he was resting up for the playoffs.

    He's still a wuss... I thought it was a given...
    

    
    I wasn't going to bring up the Wade thing until someone mentioned that
    Mattingly sat out at least the last two games to avoid embarrassing
    himself any further...
    
    glenn
    

This is a surprise?

daryll

    
    Notice all the Yankee fans in here.  Imgaine where they'd be if he was
    still on the Sox.
    
    brews

    
    
      Embarrassing himself?????
    
    If you call batting .291,17 HRs,86 Ribbies, 27 doubles,154 hits and
    only 3 ERRORS embarrassing your self I guess your right Glen. Plus he
    missed 3 weeks with a rib cage muscle pull. 
    
    Chappy

yabbut what about Boggs wimping out again.

The Crazy Met

    
    
          Boggs is and always be a SELFISH PLAYER! So why is this news?
    
    
    Chappy

    > If you call batting .291,17 HRs,86 Ribbies, 27 doubles,154 hits and
    > only 3 ERRORS embarrassing your self I guess your right Glen. Plus he
    > missed 3 weeks with a rib cage muscle pull. 
    
    Hey, I've had rib cage muscle pulls too, and lemme tell you, they're
    nothing to be proud of.  But for you Yankee fans, I guess it's okay
    to add rib cage pulls to the back injuries which have sealed the 
    "Donnie Baseball" legacy...
    
    As for the numbers, ho hum.  Again, mediocre for a 1B (and a #3 hitter).
    With offense way up all over baseball any 1B worth his salt had at
    least 20 HRs and 100 RBIs.  Hell, Mo Vaughn did it with a pathetic
    surrounding cast, while the Yankees had one of the league's best
    all-around offenses.  When the Yankees finally decide to get serious 
    about winning, they'll get Mattingly and his very average power numbers
    out of the heart of the order and move him down to 6th or 7th where he
    belongs. 
    
    This Boggs stuff is classic.  Boggs was hitting over .300 heading into
    the last week of the season.  He played through the next to last day, 
    then sat down with the .300 average.  BFD.  I guess Boggs should 
    instead adopt the annual Tony Gwynn philosophy, which is to pick up 
    enough plate appearances to qualify for the batting title, schedule a 
    date with your favorite surgeon in late August, and take your chances 
    that the average holds up for a batting title (sorry Tony, it didn't
    work this year-- Andres Galarraga bettered you in the all-important 
    time lost to injury department).  Or better yet, join ol' Donbo on the 
    DL with the heroic rib-cage injury.
    
    glenn
    

    Mattingly's numbers were terrible after Labor Day when the Yanks lost
    17 of 26 to vanish from the race. He seemed to pressing,desperate to
    play postseason once in his career. He does have few peers defensively.

    
    
    
         So Glen, when you had that heroic pulled rib cage muscle did you
    face many guys throwing a 90+ MPH pitch at you or try to stop a spere
    coming at you with speeds (sometimes) exceeding 130 MPH. How you can
    stick up for Margo and trash Mattingly is beyond me.

    	You got me convinced Chappy!  I want to have DonnyBaseball's baby!
    
    				/Don

    
    > So Glen, when you had that heroic pulled rib cage muscle did you
    > face many guys throwing a 90+ MPH pitch at you or try to stop a spere
    > coming at you with speeds (sometimes) exceeding 130 MPH.
    
    Sniff, sniff... Mattingly took a spear for the team?
    
    > How you can
    > stick up for Margo and trash Mattingly is beyond me.
    
    In fact, I think Boggs' contributions are pretty marginal these days,
    too.  Right around .300 with zero power and speed doesn't get it done 
    anymore.  When he was pushing upwards of even a .320 BA I could defend
    his performance.  Oh well, I guess you're stuck with Boggs for two more
    years, too, Chappy...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Don Mattingly:  Javelin catcher supreme!

    
    
    
        Woops   Sphere (Ball)
    
             Re- Boggs.
    
                   Please don't remind me.
    
    Chappy

    
    
      > As for the Numbers, ho hum. Again, mediocre for a 1B (and a #3
    hitter).  Bla Bla Bla............ any 1B worth his salt had at least 20
    HRs and 100 RBIs.
    
    Vaughn     29 HRs    101 RBIs         16 ERRORS        .297 Avg
    Segui      10         60               5               .273 
    Snow       16         57               6               .241
    Thomas     41(yikes) 128 (Yikes x2)   15               .317   (Gulp)
    Sorrento   18         65               6               .257
    Fielder    30        117              10               .267
    Joyner     15         65               7               .292
    Jaha       19         70              10               .264
    MATTINGLY  17 (9th)   86  (6th)        3*   (1st)      .291  (6th)
    Hrbek      25         83               5               .242
    Mcgwire           INCOMPLETE
    Palmiero   37        105               5               .295
    T.Martinez 17         60               3               .265
    Olerud     24        107              10               .363
    
             Not much Salt???? Most of these guys are 3-4-5 hitters. He
    holds his own especially when you look at the D.
    
        BTW another #3 hitter   Greenwell  13 HRs   72 RBIs   .315
    
    
    Chappy

    Based on the numbers you've supplied, Mattingly (based on this
    season's offensive stats) is perhaps the 6th or 7th best first baseman
    in the American League.  Here's how I'd rank them:
    
    1) Thomas, Chicago		41	128	.317
    2) Olerud, Toronto		24	107	.363
    3) Palmeiro, Texas		24	107	.295
    4) Vaughn, Boston		29	101	.297
    5) Fielder, Detroit		30	117	.267
    
    Those five are head and shoulders above the rest.  If McGwire played
    the full season, he would probably rank between Palmeiro and Vaughn,
    pushing Mattingly down even further.
    
    Next comes the second grouping.  Giving Mattingly his due, he belongs
    at the top of this group.
    
    6) Mattingly, New York	17	86	.291
    7) Hrbek, Minnesota		25	83	.242
    8) Joyner, Kansas City	15	65	.292
    9) Jaha, Milwaukee		19	70	.264
    10) Sorrento, Cleveland	18	65	.257
    
    So, with a healthy McGwire, Mattingly barely squeezes into the top 
    half of the first basemen in the American League in 1993.
    
    NAZZ

Hell Mattingly is barely better than Tino Martinez of the M's who missed august
and september due to injury....

I'd like to see games played listed as well because I bet those below Donbo
played less games than he did...


Metz

    
    
    Yeah when he was getting 54 RBI's in 53 games them guys below him were
    looking in awe.
    
          Read into it what you will jokers. Fact is Mattingly had 17
    dingers 86 Ribbies and he missed 3 weeks. Glen stated he should be
    batting 7th in the batting order. Anyone know of anyone who has these
    stats and bats seventh? I'll admit he hit like sh!t down the stretch
    but than again no one is perfect.
    
           But like Glen stated earlier this year Mattingly is no longer a
    productive player in the 3 spot. When he was on fire none of you were
    saying much? Defense should be calculated into a players value to a
    team, but I guess you guys just look over that stat. Sure Mo had 15
    more RBIs but is 13 more errors and lack of range gave up at least that
    amount of runs.
    
    

    
    > Read into it what you will jokers. Fact is Mattingly had 17
    > dingers 86 Ribbies and he missed 3 weeks. Glen stated he should be
    > batting 7th in the batting order. Anyone know of anyone who has these
    > stats and bats seventh? 
    
    Brush up on your logic, Chap.  When Mattingly gets moved to 6th or 7th
    he won't be knocking in that many runs, either.  And the good #3 hitter
    should be getting on base and scoring more than Mattingly does, too.  
    You're not doing him any favors comparing him to Mike Greenwell, either, 
    because that's actually a very apt offensive comarison (injuries and all).
    
    Hey, when Donbo was on fire for those 50 games I sucked it up and
    admitted that he appeared to finally be on the rebound.  It's not my
    fault that he snatched failure from the mouth of success...
    
    glenn
            

    
    
    Sorry I must have missed that reply. :-)

    
    
      Btw I wasn't comparing him to Greenwell. I was just showing how your
    3rd place hitter produced. Seeing your so much into Batting order
    slots.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    
    That MVP comment was a joke Mac.   (see :-), humor, funny.)
    
    
    Chappy

    
   >  Okay, I concede... Mattingly > John Jaha... >-
    
    Don't give up so easily there, Glen.  Jaha had more HR's less ABs, and
    just a few less RBI's.  HE was also on the only team that might be
    worse offensive then the Sox.  But ihim in NY's lineup, batting 3rd,
    and I think a case could be made that he'd do much better then
    Mattingly.  He'd certainnly do better in the clutch.
    
    brews 

    	Hey Chappy a gold glove at firstbase is like extra cheese on a
    pizza, nice but not necessary.  Now if you're talking about shortstop,
    secondbase or centerfield...
    
    				/Don

    > We had one here for the Mets,Keith Hernandez,who is a lot more
    > appreciated after he left than when he played. But most first baseman
    > are playing there,because they couldn't make it somewhere else.
    
    Sure, but Keith Hernandez was quite possibly the greatest defensive
    first baseman who ever played the game.  In terms of range, even
    Mattingly does not approach Hernandez, imo, and especially not since
    Mattingly hurt his back.  The enormous assist totals that Hernandez
    racked up on a yearly basis were just some testament to the distances 
    from the bag that Hernandez would go to make a play.  But the fact is 
    that there is no amount of defense that a 1B can play (not even from 
    a Hernandez) that is going to make up the difference between 
    Mattingly's offense and Mo Vaughn's.  13 less errors and 14 more
    assists don't make up for 12 less HRs, 7 less 2Bs, 18 less BBs, 15
    less RBIs, etc., in very close to the same number of ABs...
    
    glenn
      

Baseball is essentially a discriminatory game towards left handers.

If you have speed and you're a southpaw, you play outfield.  If you have
control and you're a southpaw, you pitch.  Otherwise, if you're a southpaw, 
you play 1B.  Not ALL 1B play there because they couldn't make it somewhere
else.  8^)


'Saw

    
    	Yabbut left handers shouldn't be allowed to reproduce!
    
    They always mess up dinner table sittings!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    forced to always sit on the left side!
    Kev
    

                      
> If you have speed and you're a southpaw, you play outfield.  If you have
> control and you're a southpaw, you pitch.  Otherwise, if you're a southpaw, 
> you play 1B.  Not ALL 1B play there because they couldn't make it somewhere
> else.  8^)
    
    That's why although my boy has been carefully trained to pick up and 
    automatically hold any bat, stick, ruler, pole, axe, or other weapon
    left-over-right in a lefthanded batter's grip, if that tiny left
    hand so much as comes into contact with a ball-- wham!-- that paw 
    gets smacked.  We're talking shortstop or catcher, baby...
    
    Actually, if you break down the probabilities, with maybe only 10-15% 
    of the total population being true lefties, 30-40% of MLB pitching 
    almost *required* to be lefthanded, with 1B-LF-CF-RF (DH) available as
    equal-opportunity positions and the premium placed on lefthanded
    batting, there ain't much doubt about which side the favorable odds lie 
    for the ticket to bigtime success...
    
    glenn
     

I always wanted to catch.  If I had been right handed I would have
caught no doubt.   Sometimes in practice I'd catch, and I always
loved plays at the plate -- about the only MEANINGFUL contact in baseball.

But I was a lefty, so I got to know the area around 1st pretty well.....


'Saw

    
>    Took a page out of Wade Boggs' dad's book, eh?
                                             
    Yes!  Wade's dad didn't screw up in this regard like Jimmy Piersall's 
    dad did!
    
    glenn
    

    
    Could someone explain how being left handed is depremental to being a
    catcher, I just don't get it.
    
    Marc
    
    

    
    Yabbut mebbe it has to do with trying to throw out a runner going for
    the steal from first or second with a right handed batter in da 'box?
    
    I remain,
    a tru blu ritie
    Kev
    

    re. -1, -2
    
    typical righthanded excuses for a naked effort to keep lefties in their
    place.
    
    Lefty Sprockett

>>    typical righthanded excuses for a naked effort to keep lefties in their
>>    place.
    
  
 DAM STRAIGHT!! Just hit a few of those righties in the head and they'll
 learn to duck...

 mike

    The steal of third is the killer for a lefthanded catcher, and not only
    when a righthanded batter is up.  That throw is similar to what a
    lefthanded SS or 3B would have to deal with on throws to second, where
    for a RH the throw is naturally across the body.  It may not seem like 
    a LH at those positions should have to be an impossibility either, but 
    at that level just the slight re-positioning effort is a huge handicap...
    
    glenn
    

    
    Yea the steal of third is the diff. I'm a lefty also and caught
    one game in LL. Didn't feel comfy. So's I went back to pitching!!
    
    MikeL
    

    re: glenn
    
    I have the *exact* same R/L philosophy with my 2-year-old son.  He's
    gonna hit left handed if it kills me, but if even *thinks* about
    throwing left handed I hafta take him behind the woodshed.
    
    IMO hitting left handed is an *enormous* advantage once ya get past
    T-ball, while throwing left handed is gonna do nothing but limit your
    options.
    
    
    - ACC Chris

>    IMO hitting left handed is an *enormous* advantage once ya get past
>    T-ball, while throwing left handed is gonna do nothing but limit your
>    options.

	hitting left-handed is an advantage in T-ball as well - My son is
	left handed and ALWAYS hits the ball down the third base line or to
	short-stop.

	We played one game this past season where his appearance at the plate
	(he is one of two or three left handed kids in the club) caused the
	opposition coach to make the tactical move of switching his short stop
	over to where he should have had his second baser (they stood and
	chatted away, one on the bag one in the hole) and my young fella drove
	the ball where he always does and got to second in the confusion of
	the chase (third base expected short stop to field it ...).


	pete

>	hitting left-handed is an advantage in T-ball as well - My son is
>	left handed and ALWAYS hits the ball down the third base line or to
>	short-stop.

Hitting left handed is an advantage at any level, I feel.  For me it
helps cause I'm a couple of steps closer to first, and with my
blazing (NOT) speed, I need all the help I can get.

Plus, I was always able to hit left-handed pitching pretty well too.


>	We played one game this past season where his appearance at the plate
>	(he is one of two or three left handed kids in the club) caused the
>	opposition coach to make the tactical move of switching his short stop
>	over to where he should have had his second baser (they stood and
>	chatted away, one on the bag one in the hole) and my young fella drove
>	the ball where he always does and got to second in the confusion of
>	the chase (third base expected short stop to field it ...).

A bit of baseball history, mate.

They tried a similar thing on Ted Williams one time, I believe, and he
hit it where they weren't too....


Despite always wanting to catch, as a lefty, I'd still rather play 1B....



'Saw

    'saw and other lefties,
    	Don't be influenced by this righty propoganda about how a
    left-handed catcher would have a problem on steals of third.  Have you
    seen good catchers like Pena (in his prime) or Rodriguez throw to first
    on pickoffs with a leftie batting - or do the right handed league say
    that no pickoffs are possible with a lefty up.
    
    	besides steals of third are done on the pitcher - shortstop/2nd
    base falling asleep.
    
    	And if anyone wants to talk about shortcomings how about a right
    handed first baseman who is limited on
    	throws to 2nd on double play balls
    
    	holding runner on first
    
    	bunts with 1st and 2nd  occupied
    
    A truly maximized defensive alignment would also see a lefty in right
    field as he has an advantage on throws to third.
    
    rrr = > ridiculous,righty rationalizations
    
    l.sprockett

>    You're right, and whenever possible you'll see a lefty playing 1B for
>    this very reason.  What's your point?

Far more righties are playing 1B than lefties these days.

Fact is they do it, and get the job done.

I think the point is that a lefty catcher could do it and get the job
done if there wasn't such a stigma attached to being a lefty catcher....


'Saw

    Probably more righties...
    

    As 'saw said, the point is simple;
    
    Righties come up with reasons for where and why lefties can't do
    something and then ignore the same "rationale" when it applies to them.
    
    This is of course after they design their games and tools etc to the
    detriment of us poor suffr'n southpaws (sniff)  BUT! so often it
    backfires and the lefties end up with the advantage.
    
    For example, why is first base where it is and not where 3rd base is.
    
    Well the batter is facing that way anyway why make him have to turn and
    run which would be inconvenient.  Result, lefties end up closer to
    first base.
    
    Many of the colorful expressions of the game go back to the early,
    rural roots of our pastime - two of which, southpaw and portsider
    originated with our common ancestor, the illustrious "legendary
    pitching great" 
    
    Lefty Sprockett
    
    Buts that's another story

    
    	Yabbut, Carol's a leftie and while she doesn't play first base,
    I've been able to get to first base with her!
    
    ;^)
    
    I remain,
    seeking Paradise by the dashboard lights!
    Kev
    

>    
>    	Yabbut, Carol's a leftie and while she doesn't play first base,
>    I've been able to get to first base with her!
    
Well, I hope you didn't reach Home on an error!


;^)

    
    
         Anybody know who won his 8th Gold Glove yeterday?
    
    
    Chap

Some overrated first baseman no doubt.  Let me see, what was it this
year?  Big glove, no stick?  That guy?????

    The nexted Ernie Banks?

    Hey Chappy - What is the Yankees number 1 prospect doing getting into a
    bar brawl and getting hurt bad enough to miss a year of baseball. I
    mean even Roger Clemons waited until he was in the SHOW before getting 
    into this kind of situation,(the fight and not missing a year). Did the
    report say anything about Wadebo coming to his rescue?
    
    Brian Taylor- WHAT COULD HAVE BEEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Just heard that the Yanks are close to making a deal with the Padres
    for Andy Benes... don't know any more details.
    
    MikeL
    

    
    
    Quick lets get up an alltime great Yankee team shall we.
    
    
    
    Chappy

    1B - Lou Gherig
    2B - Willie Randolph
    3B - Craig Nettles
    SS - ???
    C  - Yogi Berra
    RF - Babe Ruth
    CF - Micky Mantle
    LF - Joe Dimaggio
    
    DH - Reggie Jackson
    
    Relief Pitchers:
       Sparky Lyle - Goose Gossage
    
    Starters - Whitey Ford, Don Larson, Ron Guidry, Catfish Hunter, etc.
    
    - Rope
    
    What Fun!

    
    
    Another Boston Blooper!!!
    
    1/27/44
    
         Lou Perini, Guido Rugo and Joe Maney purcase the Boston Braves and
    fire manager Casey Stengal. As manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers from 34
    to 36 and Boston from 38, Stengel has never done better than a fifth
    place finish. He won't manage again in the majors until 1949,when he
    takes the helm of the NEW YORK YANKEES and leads them to 10 pennants in
    12 years and 7 world championships.
    
    
    Chap

re: .379

goes to show that a manager has to have good players to win.

The Crazy Met

    
    
    
        Than what was Davey Johnson's excuse?
    
    Oh yeah Bill Buckner :-)
    
    
    
    Chappy

    
    
                                                               :-)
	Yankees 9, Orioles 7                                  ^^^^^^^^^                                                          
	FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. (AP) -- Danny Tartabull and Don Mattingly
had two-run homers, and New York rallied to down Baltimore.
Baltimore took a 5-2 lead off Terry Mulholland.
	Rafael Palmeiro connected in the first, and Mike Devereaux had a
three-run homer in a four-run third.

    9 to 7?? Where's that revamped and promising Yank pitching staff?
    (starters that is) Mulholland's a stiff..
    
    MikeL
    

    When will the Yankees learn that a pitcher with an ERA in the NL that
    is about equal to that of an average AL pitcher's won't make it in the
    AL?  Whitson, Hawkins, Mullholland
    
     

    WHo's playing SS for them?
    

    
    
    Gallego, Silvestri.

    What happened to Spike Owen?

RE              <<< Note 45.387 by PATE::MACNEAL "ruck `n' roll" >>>

>    What happened to Spike Owen?

  At this point he seems to be on the Angels 40 man roster.

  George

    
    
    Released in the off season.
    
    
    Chappy

    
    
       Wow gone 3 weeks  (Bad back)
    
    
    
         And no replies in the bestest note?
    
    
    Chap

    we don't talk about .500 teams in here.

    Thinking about going on Saturday (1:05 start) Boston Vs. Yankees.
    Depending on whether or not Butch juggles the order, it could be
    Clemens.
    
    Q's - Ticket availability - do they sell out?
        - Can I get to Yankee Stadium from Grand Central via Subway?
          Safely? ;-)
    
    I figure I'll drive to Greenwich or Stamford and take the Metro in,
    go to the game, go out drinking, and get the last train Eastward 
    (unless I can "arrange" other accomodations). Sound reasonable?
    
    Murph

    
    
        I'm goin Saturday too! You can usually get bleacher seats even if
    the rest of the Stadium is sold out. 
    
    
    Chap

    There is a subway stop right at the Stadium.  I attended a seminar in
    Brooklyn a few years back and took the subway in to see a night game
    vs. the Rangers.  The Yankees stunk up the joint and the fans were all
    over them.  I bought tickets at the box office and got front row behind
    the boxes.  By the third inning I was a row or two behind the Yankee
    dugout.

    My daughter and I are also planning on going down to The Stadium 
    Saturday, if the weather stays decent, the pitching order isn't 
    juggled and Clemens is still in there (he should be).  I don't believe
    the game is a sell-out, and even if it does you still should be able 
    to find a couple seats.  If you get there early enough I think there's 
    plenty of parking in the adjacent lots...
    
    glenn
    

    Not sure if the 4 or 5 go to Yankee Stadium - you can get those
    at Grand Central. However, you can certainly take the Shuttle or
    the #7 from Grand Central to Times Square and take the #2 or #3 to
    Yankee Stadium.
    
    The Crazy Met
    

    Yankee fans showed they are still the class of the league this weekend. 
    Sox PR man attempted to get the ball catcher Rich Rowland hit for his
    first HR.  The Yankee fan who had it wanted $5000 for it.
    
    Then there were the Cub fan wannabees in the upper deck throwing Mo
    Vaughn's HR back onto the field of play.

>>    Then there were the Cub fan wannabees in the upper deck throwing Mo
>>    Vaughn's HR back onto the field of play.

	Ah, err, Mac, they did the same thing at Fenway on Patriot's Day.
	Then again there were alot 'outbound' that day.


	billl

    
    
     re .397
    
    >>Yankee fans showed they are still the class of the league this weekend.
    >>Sox PR man attempted to get the ball catcher Rich Rowland hit for his
    >>first HR.  The Yankee fan who had it wanted $5000 for it.
    
    
      Do you think this is bad that they wanted some money or 
      was the price too high?
    
       
       

well, that HR ball is only worth something to that player. It ain't going to
the HoF or anything. So you swap it for another baseball. 

The Crazy Met

>well, that HR ball is only worth something to that player. It ain't going to
>the HoF or anything. So you swap it for another baseball. 

Kind of like that ball signed by that girl Babe Ruth, in The Sandlot...8^)

Date: 10 May 94 00:30:05 GMT

Tuesday, May 10

STATS
        The Yankees moved into first place in the AL East on Monday
night, the first time they've held the spot this late in a season
since May 16, 1989. ... 

The New York faithful have gotsta be happy. The Knicks and Rangers are
winning in the playoffs and the Yankees are in 1st.

TTom

> and the Yankees are in 1st.


uh, hold on their for a minute buddy, that part is NO CAUSE for
celebration!!!!!!

The Crazy Met

    
    
       Oh contrare mein Frare

       Oh contrare mein Frare
       ^     ^       ^    ^
       |     |       |    |vintage Chappy
       |     |       |
       |     |       |german
       |     |
       |     |butchered french
       |
       |
       English

    
    
    
    He he he

Okay.  Since the Yankees are now the hottest team in base-a-ball, can someone
tell me who exactly Murderer's Row was in 1927?  Was the entire team
called Murderer's Row, was it just a part of the battingg order.

I mean, having to face Ruth and Gehrig (who batted 3, who batted 4?)
is tough enough...

Wanna fill me in with other names?   

I know that Miller Huggins was the manager, and one other name (Joe Dugan)
rings a ball....


Discuss amongst yerselves, please post findings....8^)


'Saw

    
    
      Bunch a closet Yankee Fansyou are!!!!!!!!

>    
>    
>      Bunch a closet Yankee Fansyou are!!!!!!!!
>

Nah,  but even if I hate the Yankees, as a baseball fan I have to respect
what they have done, and even admire it -- no doubt.

Despite not being a Yankee fan I can admire Ruth, Gehrig, Mantle.....


'Saw

    10 in a row........
    
    Wow!!
    
    Redmen Phil
    

                           a
                          / \
    It's   long way to tip   rare   
        \ /                      \ /
         a                        rey.........
    

     Sorry non Yankee fans but aside from the performance of the Blue Jays
    this season so far, the Yanks are the MOST consistant ball team in any
    league. You have to admit that they will be in it to the end, without
    losing streaks like Boston and toronto and detroit, Just have to watch
    those O's.
    
     I have a Ques.
    Since the Playoffs were intro'd in the 70's (I think) Have the Yankees
    ever lost to the western div champs in a playoff game.?
    
    Bob.
    

>    Since the Playoffs were intro'd in the 70's (I think) Have the Yankees
>    ever lost to the western div champs in a playoff game.?
    
    Royals

	Us Red Sox fans were saying "It's only April". The Yankee fans are
saying the same thing "It's only May". Toronto has to get its act in gear.
They are currently 9 games out. They can't fall much farther behind.
If they are behind by say 15 games at the all star break, it would be tough
for them to catch up. They need to get Duane Ward back to solidify the
bullpen.
	The O's should contend to the end. A big key for the Red Sox is
how Finvold and Hesketh hold up over the next 3 months. The same is true
for the Yankee's, how will the pitching hold up.

Ron

    what year did the royals beat the yanks in the playoffs?
    

    >Since the Playoffs were intro'd in the 70's (I think) Have the Yankees
    >ever lost to the western div champs in a playoff game.?
    
    If you mean playoff game, several times.  In best of 5 series, 1976
    went 5 games against KC, 5 games in 1977 against KC and 4 games in 1978
    against KC.  That is 5 loses.  No series loses though.
    
    Marc
    

>                    <<< Note 45.424 by CSC32::M_MACGREGOR >>>
>
>    >Since the Playoffs were intro'd in the 70's (I think) Have the Yankees
>    >ever lost to the western div champs in a playoff game.?
>    
>    If you mean playoff game, several times.  In best of 5 series, 1976
>    went 5 games against KC, 5 games in 1977 against KC and 4 games in 1978
>    against KC.  That is 5 loses.  No series loses though.
>    
>    Marc
 
     In 1980 KC swept the Yanks three straight.   

    The ball should be bouncing around the Dome the next coupla days as
    both teams are a-hittin' and a-grinnin'.
    
    
    Spud

     Thanx, I should have specified the whole series though. I was'nt sure
    if they ever captured first place and did'nt go to the world series.
    Seems like KC gave them a run each time.
    
    Bob.
    

    The panic has set in. 1-6 including 4 straight home losses with a
    treacherous 11 game road trip to Texas,Toronto and Baltimore waiting in
    the wings. If the Yankees can't break out of their team slump out of
    these pitching poor teams then maybe it is time to get worried.
    
    The problem with the Yankees over the Steinbrnner era is the first time
    trouble sets in the Boss starts meddling and the Ken Phelps for Jay
    Buhner trades start all over again.
    
    Hey George: Strawberry is available

    whats that song?? ..slip sliding away..slip sliding away...
    
              stig

    
       Actually last night we gained a game on EVERY team in the AL East???

    I thought the Tigers DNP last night...
    

    
    
    woops.
    
    Gained Ground on everyone!!!

Got to admit, it's much more enjoyable watching Greg Harris pitch
these days.

daryll

>Got to admit, it's much more enjoyable watching Greg Harris pitch
>these days.

Amen.

    Why can't the Red Sox get players like Harris?????
    
    FAST EDDIE

    Don Mattingly has been demoted to #5 in the batting order with Paul
    O'Neill moving to #3. This is the first time Mattingly has batted that
    low since 1984.

    I think he won the batting title that year. Maybe he asked buck to put
    him there to get the selection of pitches he used to. Or maybe he's got
    a mental block.

I'll bet O'Neill will have fun at the #3 spot -- in fact, he'll have more
fun than a barrel full of monkies.....

    Yanks win resumption of suspended game 4-3 in 11.

Do you think if Dan Schneider were still around, he'd be able to logically
explain Wade Boggs' batting average as a Yankee?   Park effects?  Too small
a sample?  

>Do you think if Dan Schneider were still around, he'd be able to logically
>explain Wade Boggs' batting average as a Yankee?   Park effects?  Too small
>a sample?  

It's easy.

Margot is still not wearing any underwear.....

>explain Wade Boggs' batting average as a Yankee?

Boggs wears a WS championship ring in Nov !

    re; -1
    
    	What do you mean, Is Boggs going to get traded to a team that has
    a chance of winning the WS championship....:}}}

    
    
    Huh Huh that was funny.

I love this strike, I love this strike I love this strike.....

    
    Hargrove was robbed...
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Well, OK, not really.  But someone had to say it... B^)
    
    Joe

    
    
    Yep Yep Yep!!!!

Yep, 1994, what a year for the Yankmes to be proud of.....

Faux titles in a faux election for a faux season.

    
    
       Hey if they pass them out, we will accept?
    
    
    
    Chap

>    
>    
>       Hey if they pass them out, we will accept?
>    
    
Of course Chap, you should accept them.

The fact that they're TAINTED shouldn't spoil your enjoyment 8^) 8^) 8^)

  Bob Lobel called him the "Manager of the half year".

  George

    
    
        Happy B'day Mickey Mantle!!!!!!

    I picked out a present for the Mick, but when my boss came by I had to
    stick it under the table.

    Tommy Hendrich was just on the radio talking about the Yankmes of the
    '40s.  He lives in Prescott, AZ now.

>    Tommy Hendrich was just on the radio talking about the Yankmes of the
>    '40s.  He lives in Prescott, AZ now.
    
    With all that premature talk of the Indians possibly having one of 
    the greatest outfields ever, the one it'd have to top over the long 
    haul would probably have to be Heinrich, Keller, and DiMaggio...
    
    glenn
    

    Heinrich said DiMaggio was somewhat of an introvert.  I wonder what
    Marilyn would think of that.

    Heinrich was pictured in globe in the list of players who have ended a
    world series game with a homer, his in 40s.  Nice swing.
    
    Heinrich was one player who got something like free agency when two
    teams bought his minor league contract at the same time, he wrote
    Kennesaw mtn Landis and the commish let him sign with team of choice
    for  a nice contract (at the time).
    
    One of the great clutch hitters of all time

>    With all that premature talk of the Indians possibly having one of 
>    the greatest outfields ever
    
    What talk of possibly having?  The only talk I saw was about having
    an outfield with the _chance_ to become one of the greatest ever.
    
    Joe

From what I've read and heard from other ballplayers' interviews, Joltin'
Joe was quiet and kind of shy.....



I'm not a Yankee fan in any way shape or form, but when you think of some
of the talent they've had through the years.....WHOA!

'Saw

    
    
    
         Thank you, Thank you very much!!!

|       Thank you, Thank you very much!!!

Uhhh, what position did you play?

    
>    What talk of possibly having?  The only talk I saw was about having
>    an outfield with the _chance_ to become one of the greatest ever.
    
    Well, okay, "potentially", not possibly.  But there was the question of
    whether this was the greatest single season by an outfield.  Accounting
    for major offensive inflation this year, I'd have to say no.  I
    wouldn't know which particular season was best, but DiMaggio/Keller/
    Henrich put up numbers around .400 OBP/.500+ SLG over the entire time 
    they played together, not just one season.
    
    glenn
    
                                                

 enough of this yankee praising crap already will ya knock it off.......
 the yankees are nothing but a bunch of mercenaries. Always have been
 always will be. If I was a moderator I suspend all your noting priviledges
 for a week........

 ;^)

    Mays , Cepeda and Felipe Alou was a pretty fair group in the 58-64 time
    frame (depending on when McCovey pushed Cepeda to the outfield).  This
    group only one one pennant but contended every year.  It's competition
    had at least two top outfielders:
    		Davis and Davis in LA
    		Vada Pinson and Frank in Cinci
    		Clemente and Virdon in Pitt
    		Callison and Ashburn for Philly

    I always rooted for the yankees in the world series.  The globe talked
    about the 1960 finale and mentioned the top of the ninth, one out,
    Mantle on first when a hard drive was hit down the line to Nelson the
    first basement which he scooped up.
    
    He turn towards second but in a miraculous heads-up play, Mantle slit
    back into first.  This always was and has been the best single play I
    ever saw with Maris throw home to hold back the tying run in '62 #2.
    
    I was delighted that the author mentioned it and almost got it 100% 
    except missing the point about there being some doubt whether the ball
    was fielded before hitting the dirt or scooped.

    >>		Clemente and Virdon in Pitt
    
    	Don't forget Bob Skinner.
    
    
    	billl

    
    I didn't.  Skinner was an excellent hitter.  But to have mentioned
    Virdon,Skinner and Clemente as one of the all time best outfields was a
    stretch.
    
    I haven't forgotten Bobby DelGreco either; tremendous defense but light
    hitter.
    
    I also was trying to recall the Cardinal outfield, both 1964 and prior.
    Flood was there in '64 but I'm not sure of Brock.  Cards made a run in
    '63 Stan's last year.

>    I was delighted that the author mentioned it and almost got it 100% 
>    except missing the point about there being some doubt whether the ball
>    was fielded before hitting the dirt or scooped.
    
    Well, if that were the case, and you mention that possibility, it turns
    a very intelligent play by Mantle into an ordinary one where he had to
    return to first because he thought the 1B caught the ball on the fly...
    
    glenn
    

    Heinrich really tipped his hat to the '45 (or was it '46) Red Sox that
    ran away with the division.  He said most of them had career years all
    in the same season and the Yanks were way behind before they knew what
    happened.  Most of the time he talked about the bad blood between them
    and the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Giants.  Sounds like it was quite a
    rivalry.
    
    Mike

It was the '46 Red Sox.  They should have won the series that year 8^)

    Glenn,
    	Believe it or not I did think of that.  But Nelson was at the base
    (closer to) before Mantle ever could have got back if the ball had been
    caught in the air.
    
    	Mantle did see it hit the dirt, the camera (which was from
    centerfield or right-center) did not.  The confusion was only from the
    tv point of view.
    
    	The key was the no-delay reaction and sliding back in under the
    unsuspecting Nelson.  Now if Stuart had been playing first....

    
    
    
           Ahhhhhhhh I'm in Heaven!!!
    
     More boys More!!!
    
    
    Chap

                                       
    It's perfectly acceptable to talk about old Yankee greats that Chap
    never had the privilege of seeing.  It's the stuff about mentioning 
    the overrated Don Mattingly's name in the same breath with these guys
    that's sickening...
    
    glenn
    

    right on Glenn,
    	Our Yankees come to an abrupt halt with the retirement of Mantle
    circa 1966.  This was our mortal enemy but the very excellence of the
    team elicited the admiration of Fenway crowds for whom it had always
    been a tradition to applaud excellence.  Celtic crowds of the Bird era
    picked this up.  Russell era Celtic fans were similar to Yankee fans in
    that the excellence of their team was God ordained and their right.
    
    	Plus I was an American League fan and my duty was to root the A.L.
    team.  The Dodger sweep of the Yankees in 1963 was devestating and I've
    never forgiven Joe Pepitone and I refuse to have my hair cut at his place.
    
    	I never had feelings for the 76-current Yankees.

Well, I for one want to set the record straight.


While the Immortal Lou Gehrig will *always* have a place in my heart
right next to Ted Williams, the greatest hitter the game ever saw, I have
to say that I could never, ever, ever, ever, never, never, never, root
for the Yankees in any way shape, form or fashion.   Even if they was
playing the Mets in the WS....


However, I can stand at a distance, and appreciate the talent that they
have had, and respect what they have done with that talent, much the same
way as a WWI flying ace might break off an engagement  when an opponent's
guns had jammed, or the way he might have saluted the victor as his
plane started its final dive.

Or the way a Confederate General in the Civil War might have presented
his compliments to a Union General upon taking him prisoner.....


Respect, I guess.....


'Saw

Well, I did something awfully nice this past weekend.

I was down in Pompano Beach, taking a few days off.  At one point, we
drove past the Stadium where the Yankees have spring training, or one of
their farm teams play, I'm not sure.

Anyway, I said a few "Our Babe Ruth"s and a few "Hail Lou Gehrig"s for
Chappy and the rest of the Yankee fans in here.

    I did something similar up in Vero Beach when I visited Dodgertown and
    drove down Campanella lane and up Robinson rd and then played 18 at
    Dodgertown municipal.
    
    Yes, it was something special to do.  And no my wife will never
    understand except she always wants to drive by her old polo field when
    we're in Michigan.

    
    
      thanks Saw!  :-)
    
    
        In much happier news!!!
    
         The greatest defensive 1B of all time won his 9th Gold glove
    yesterday!!!!  :-)
    
         Also sdome former Red Sox 3rd baseman won his 1st?????

             
>    The greatest defensive 1B of all time won his 9th Gold glove
>    yesterday!!!!  :-)
     
    I thought Keith Hernandez had retired...
                 
> Also sdome former Red Sox 3rd baseman won his 1st?????
    
    Yes, apparently after an old, decrepit part-timer with no range left
    dons the pinstripes, he suddenly qualifies for full All-Overrated 
    benefits like the rest...
    
    glenn
    

    there should be an award for right handed first basemen since even the
    greatest all time right handed first baseman can't compare to good
    lefthander.  George Scott was a very good rthanded first basemen.
    
    There were a lot of good ones when defense at that position was
    considered important.  Brains such as Duquette and his ilk must think
    it's a coincidence that Yankees are in first with Mattingly's defense
    and Mets had many good years with Hernandez.
    
    Then again Mickey Vernon played for Senators and Redsox...

    Then again you may be right.  The best defensive first baseman of his
    era DID retire this year.
    
    
    Spud

    
    
     As much as I dispise that WWF wannabe your right.  Donniebaseball
    aint as good as Hrbek.
    
    Jerry

    
    Now, nothing in particular against Hrbek - he was a minor star,
    who put together one of the best careers ever by some who needed
    to buy a vowel, but he just _wasn't_ a great defensive first baseman.
    
    He _did_ have a knack for snagging errant throws, and deserves credit
    for that.  But he had a very limited range; while that's not critical
    for a first baseman, it does prevent him from being a great defensive
    first baseman.  He was, overall, a little below average statistically
    (cost his team about a run a year, 1988-1993).  Mattingly, while
    not always the best defensively, was above average every year during
    the same span.  Of course, Hrbek was the better hitter most of those
    years...
    
    Joe

    
    
       What years?????

The Gold Gloves are just like all the other awards for thised season - faux.

>       What years?????
    
    1988-1993.  That's all the years I've seen DA numbers for, so far.
    
    Given my druthers, I'd take the early part of Mattingly's career,
    the middle of Hrbek's, and the end of, um... Schmidt's?  OK, he's
    not a 1B, and is a heck of a lot better player, but it's hard finding
    a really good end-of-career save when someone's retired on top
    (like Schmidt, Koufax, Sandberg).
    
    Joe

    
    
        Mattingly is far from retired!!!

    All I have to say about the Hrbek/Mattingly debate is this:  
    
    Switch cities they played their careers in and the argument would (in
    most cases) be 180 degrees different from what it is today.
    
    To say Hrbek had no range tells me you either A) never saw him play or
    B) didn't pay attention
    
    You know, Yankee fans tend to laugh at this comparison, but you'll hear
    very knowledgeable baseball people who'll tell you Hrbek is the best
    they saw in their time... including Jim Kaat (who played 25 years
    including with Keith Hernandez and was himself a multi gold glove
    winner as well as color analyst for both the Yankees and Twins
    and Tommy John, who also played about 25 years and has been an analyst 
    for the Twins the last couple of years.
    
    
    Spud

    Hrbek was great for the first half of his career, before he got fat 
    (or at least fat _and_ old).  He was underpublicized before that but 
    I think if you're honest about it you'd have to admit that there was 
    a major drop-off over the term of his last contract.  To be blunt about
    it, Hrbek may be a great guy and all but I think he was given something
    of a free ride in the face of gross neglect in conditioning.  A guy
    like Kevin Mitchell gets chewed up for basically the same thing, 
    missing larging chunks of seasons due to injuries related to carrying
    too much weight...
    
    glenn
    

    
>    To say Hrbek had no range tells me you either A) never saw him play or
>    B) didn't pay attention
    
    OK, then, puzzle me this:
    
    If Hrbek had good or better range, why did he consistently, from
    1988-1993, get to a lower percentage of balls hit to his area than
    the average 1st baseman?
    
    I'm sorry, but as near as I can tell Hrbek's defensive reputation
    lies on his soft hands and Tom Kelly's never ending praise, neither
    of which is enough to make him a good defensive first baseman, not
    to mention a great one.
    
    Now, he wasn't a tree stump, ala Lansford, but still - based on what
    I saw of him, combined with his statistics, I'd rather have Don
    Mattingly in the field.
    
    He does put Frank Thomas to shame, though...
    
    Joe

    >>> get to a lower percentage of balls hit to his area
    
    If this isn't a new fantasy stat next year I'll be bummed.  Does the
    actual line marking your territory depend on who the second baseman
    is......WOW
    
    Give me the Boomer anyday.
    
    Jimbo

    
>    If this isn't a new fantasy stat next year I'll be bummed.  Does the
>    actual line marking your territory depend on who the second baseman
>    is......
    
    No, it doesn't.  And areas do overlap - that's the biggest knock
    against the system.  But even with its problems, defensive average
    does have a lot going for it - it does provide a realistic look at
    ranges (not biased by the pitching staff, which can build up or
    keep down chances at various positions), doesn't focus on errors
    (fielding percentage isn't totally worthless, but nearly so - who
    cares if player X throws two extra balls into the stands if he can
    turn 50 extra balls into outs?), and does show year-to-year
    consistency, even when a player changes team, with closer correlation
    than most "accepted" stats.
    
    (What this actually means:
    
    Say you want to guess what player X's batting average will be in 1995.
    The best way to determine it is to use player X's previous batting
    averages, focusing more on 1994 than years past.  Do this, and you'll
    have a reasonable guess.  Most players who hit .260 in 1994 aren't
    going to vary too much from that in 1995.
    
    However, if you do the same thing with defensive average - again, it's
    just the percentage of balls hit into a player's area that he fields
    successfully - you'll have a much better guess than you did for
    batting average.)
    
    Joe

>    If Hrbek had good or better range, why did he consistently, from
>    1988-1993, get to a lower percentage of balls hit to his area than
>    the average 1st baseman?

Easy, Joe.  Because he played on a rug.    
    
>    Now, he wasn't a tree stump, ala Lansford, but still - based on what
>    I saw of him, combined with his statistics, I'd rather have Don
>    Mattingly in the field.

I'd rather have Hernandez than either of them.  Or Wally Joyner.  Or Mark
McGwire, if he is ever healthy again.  Or maybe even Rafael Palmeiro.  In
fact, given that a first baseman is first and foremost an offensive
player, I'd definitely rather have Palmeiro (but then, of course, I'd
have to take the next step and say that, even given his defensive
ability, I want Frank Thomas).

The problem with DA as a stat in this context is that it rates a first
baseman on terms more suitable to the other infield positions.  Fielding
batted balls is not the most important thing a first baseman does;
catching thrown ones is.  And we don't really have a way to measure that.
Other things (turning the 3-6-3 or the 3-1) are indicated as well by his
assist total as by DA.

Steve

    
    
        If your saying you'd rather have McGwire or Joyner's Defense than
    Mattingly? You don't know baseball do you?
    
        Chap

    
>>    If Hrbek had good or better range, why did he consistently, from
>>    1988-1993, get to a lower percentage of balls hit to his area than
>>    the average 1st baseman?

> Easy, Joe.  Because he played on a rug.    
    
    Excellent point; there does, in some cases, seem to be a park factor
    for defensive average, as well as for hitting.  But playing on rug is
    a two-way street; while the ball might go through faster, it also
    goes through without "bad hops".  I don't belive that Minnesota was
    a particularly difficult place to field (the only park that really
    stands out is San Diego) for any position.
    
> The problem with DA as a stat in this context is that it rates a first
> baseman on terms more suitable to the other infield positions.  Fielding
> batted balls is not the most important thing a first baseman does;
> catching thrown ones is.  And we don't really have a way to measure that.
> Other things (turning the 3-6-3 or the 3-1) are indicated as well by his
> assist total as by DA.
    
    Hmmm... Interesting thought.  I disagree with your second point;
    assist total is dependent upon assist opportunities; DA counts both.
    But DA doesn't measure the ability to catch the ball, which is a
    talent requisite in a first baseman.  I suspect that the difference
    between the best and the wortst is smaller in importance than the
    differences in range, but I have nothing to back that up.
    
    Joe

The St. Louis Cardinals got away with Jack Clark at first base because they
had Tommy Herr, Ozzie Smith and Terry Pendleton throwing to him.  He was
succeeded by Pedro Guerrero, who has less range than a moderately wide oak
tree.  About all either man could do in the field was catch a ball thrown
to him.  But that was all they had to do.  Smith's range, of course, was
phenomenal (it's still no worse than 3rd in baseball); that permitted Herr
(later Oquendo) to move closer to first, reducing the impact of the first
baseman's range still further.  These teams never had a first baseman of
even average ability, once Keith Hernandez and his habit were shipped to
New York, but they still led the National League in fielding every year.

Ah, you easterners.  Mark McGwire, when healthy, is probably the best
defensive first baseman in the American League (the real question is
will he ever be healthy again?), and has a Golden Glove to prove it.
And that despite the disadvantage of being right handed.  (You righties
can never know how much good it does me to write that last sentence.)

Steve

            
> The St. Louis Cardinals got away with Jack Clark at first base because they
> had Tommy Herr, Ozzie Smith and Terry Pendleton throwing to him.
    
    Until it came time to catch a simple foul pop-up to (just about) wrap
    up the World Series, at which time Jack's inadequacies were put on
    display in horrible fashion...
    
    glenn
    

>And that despite the disadvantage of being right handed.  (You righties
>can never know how much good it does me to write that last sentence.)

You a leftie, Steve?  Great club we're in, eh?


When I played first base, being a leftie, my coaches always told me
(rightly or wrongly) that the most important things were


		a) getting the throw, no matter what I had to do
		   to get it.  Even if it's off the mark, get the
		   throw.

		b) be able to work the play with the pitcher covering

		c) being a lefty, concentrate on the line, let the
		   second baseman roam between first and second.


That's kind of what I did.


Whoever stated before that it's a different position, where vacuuming
up throws is more important, is, IMO, correct....


'Saw

Righthanded, I write
	       throw a football
	       shoot a pistol
	       bowl
	       bat.

Lefthanded,  I throw a baseball
	       shoot a rifle
	       shoot a bow
	       eat (though I can also eat righthanded)
	       see (my left eye is dominant).

It should not be surprising to learn that I have absolutely no sense of
direction.  If you tell me to raise my right hand, the chances are 50-50
that I'll get it right.  I can get lost standing still.

Figures that I'd become a programmer.

Steve

>	       shoot a pistol

I do this right handed also.  My right eye is dominant, and I've become
very comfortable shooting right handed.

The only other things I do right handed are deal cards and throw a 
frisbee....


Lefthanded,  I do everything else 8^)



'Saw

I deal lefthanded, can throw a frisbee with either hand.  I kick rightfooted,
but feebly.

The left-eye dominance combined with right handed hitting should have made me
a powerful force, but didn't.  As far as I know, Rickey Henderson is the only
"bats right, throws left" to have played 1000 games, and I don't think there
have been more than three or four who played 500.

Got to catch the train home shortly, then off again.  Talk to you Friday.

Steve

    Steve,
    	You still have to put McQuire into the best right-handed category.
    A Mattingly can just do so many things the right-handed first baseman
    cannot.
    	And Mattingly like some other left-handed first basemen with talent
    can affect the game with his defensive ability substantially:
    
    	He can throw home and to thired.  Righties do this with great
    difficulty
    
    	His throw to second are not affected by baserunner
    
    	He can hold a runner an extra step.
    
    If you want to see the antithesis of Mattingly watch Mo Vaughn an
    absolutely horrible defensive presence.  I still have a faint hope that
    injuries and the strike impacted his ability and interest last year
    otherwise they won't be competitive with him out there.
    
    	Finally, defensive stats seem to be just as useless as offensive.
    And watching on TV is very limited but Mattingly stands out as does
    Vaghn in a negative way (and I'm not talking about catching the thrown
    ball).
    
    Billte

    
>    If you want to see the antithesis of Mattingly watch Mo Vaughn an
>    absolutely horrible defensive presence.  I still have a faint hope that
>    injuries and the strike impacted his ability and interest last year
>    otherwise they won't be competitive with him out there.
 
    Competitive in what sense?  No matter _how_ good a first baseman is
    defensively, he's still got to contribute significantly more with his
    bat than with his glove to be worth anything.  Overall, I'd take
    Vaughn over Mattingly any day.
       
>    Finally, defensive stats seem to be just as useless as offensive.
>    And watching on TV is very limited but Mattingly stands out as does
>    Vaghn in a negative way (and I'm not talking about catching the thrown
>    ball).
    
    Useless?  In what sense?
    
    No stat, nor combined group of stats, has come close to telling us
    precisely how a player will do in a specific situation.  They can
    tell us, within a range, what a player will most likely do in the
    future.
    
    Joe

    Joe, you're subscribing to consensus approach of major league baseball
    management which is to stick a slugger over at first base and pray that
    he'll win more than he costs you.
    
    But many teams with winning records from the Wes Parker Dodgers to
    Mattingly's Yankees use defense at first as part of their winning
    formula.  As far as stats go it's another personal opinion but I think
    teams would be better off totally ignoring them.  I can't believe that
    Leo Durocher would have had much time for someone to tell him that
    Sibbi Sisti's stats were better than Pee Wee Reese's.
    
    The one "stat" that I would pay attention to is "Pitching wins".  And
    pitching is useless without team defense and team defense cannot be
    done with 7 men.
    
    Vaughn on the Yankees would have put them behind Cleveland if not a few
    other teams.  Too many critical plays occur around first base to try to
    hide a player.
    
    Hopefully Mo will bounce back as I really like him with a bat in his
    hands.

                                       
>    Joe, you're subscribing to consensus approach of major league baseball
>    management which is to stick a slugger over at first base and pray that
>    he'll win more than he costs you.
    
    Which can very easily be the case, with a great bat.  If Mattingly's 
    defense is now suddenly such a critical part of the Yankees' winning 
    formula, what was the problem the first ten years of his career?  
    There are *no* hard-and-fast irrefutable formulas in the game of 
    baseball, and if there were 1B defense would still be well from the 
    top.  I think you alluded to it before, Billte, in that if a team 
    like the '60 Pirates) can win a world championship with Dick Stuart 
    and Rocky Nelson at first base, then anything is possible.
    
    glenn
     

>    Joe, you're subscribing to consensus approach of major league baseball
>    management which is to stick a slugger over at first base and pray that
>    he'll win more than he costs you.
    
    No, I'm not.  I'll take a good hitter at virtually any position over
    a good fielder - about the only places where I'd consider giving
    defense more importance are SS and C.
    
    Think of it this way - player can help win by either scoring runs
    or preventing runs.  Scoring runs is a matter of hitting, in one
    form or the other.  For specific players baserunning makes a
    difference; as a whole, it just doesn't matter.  Preventing runs
    is a combination of pitching and defense.  What percentage of that
    is defense is up to debate, but no matter how you cut it (unless you
    believe pitching doesn't matter) hitting (as a whole) is more
    important the defense (as a whole).
    
    From there, you've got to decide how to break things down.  If you
    feel that 1B defense is of critical importance, moreso to the team
    than the offensive contribution of the 1Bman, then some other
    position(s) must have _less_ importance.  No matter how I cut it,
    I can't reasonably find a way that 1B defense is more important than
    1B offense, or that Mattingly > Vaughn.
    
    Joe

    Well there's such a thing as slightly more range at short vis punch with
    the bat such as may be the case with Garciaparra vs Valentin.
    
    But in the case of Vaughn you have mistakes and this is the area of
    team defense I've been talking about.
    
    Now, apparently (Glenn at least) you don't see the serious problems Mo
    was having at the end of last year.  I'd watch him a little more
    closely and objectively if they ever start playing ball (which
    apparently they will on a plan which will use more of these useless
    "stats" to manage the pay of those not eligible for free agency,God
    help us).

  Using Bill James Runs Created formula, Vaughn had 72.685 RC in 94 games and
Mattingly had 52.329 in 81 games.

  By comparison, big Frank had 133.968 Runs Created in 99 games and Jeff
Bagwell had 120.309 in 96 games. 

  Let's see, normalizing that to 80 games by 

   Rc   x
   -  = -
   g    80

comes to something like:

    Player        Runs Created in 80 games
    ------        ------------------------
  Frank Thomas              108.257
  Jeff Bagwell              100.257
  Mo Vaughn                  61.8596
  Don Mattingly              51.683 

  Does Mo's defense allow 10 more runs than Mattingly in 80 games?

  In any case, you guys can have Vaughn and Mattingly, I'll take Bagwell or the
Big Hurt. 

  George

>    Now, apparently (Glenn at least) you don't see the serious problems Mo
>    was having at the end of last year.
    
    No, in spite of the marked increase in backhanded compliments 
    citing "improvement" around Mo's defense (that not coincidentally 
    started when Mo starting hitting two years ago), he's still at best a 
    poor defensive 1B.  I don't know that his problems worsened at the 
    end of the year so much as Mo has never been able to consistently 
    handle some pretty basic plays while occasionally coming up with 
    the spectacular one (but everybody in MLB makes plays like that on
    occasion; it's the long haul that counts).  Still, 30+ HRs make up
    for the usual one-base "team" errors (scored or not scored) that come 
    at about the rate of the HRs, every 5-6 games.  That's just simple 
    logic.  Don't underrate Mo's 35-HR power in comparison with the 10-HR
    power that now leaves Mattingly below average offensively for 1Bs...
    
    glenn
    

    Well the sox would be projected as 25 games behind the yankees on a
    complete 94 season and the difference has to come somewhere and in a
    nutshell is in ability to execute, especially in the clutch.
    
    This inability to execute comes from a lack of a team concept of
    defense (first).
    
    If any team in the history of organized sports has proven the fallacy
    of statistics vs performance it is our beloved sox.
    
    I wouldn't be completely surprised that Duquette etco aren't harboring
    thoughts of moving Vaughn.  Perhaps that decision will be up to
    Kennedy.

    
>    Well the sox would be projected as 25 games behind the yankees on a
>    complete 94 season and the difference has to come somewhere and in a
>    nutshell is in ability to execute, especially in the clutch.
>    
>    This inability to execute comes from a lack of a team concept of
>    defense (first).
>    
>    If any team in the history of organized sports has proven the fallacy
>    of statistics vs performance it is our beloved sox.
    
    Fine argument, but it doesn't work.
    
    The Sox were not an example of a team with great statistical performers
    who failed because they had an "inability to execute".
    
    The Sox "inability to execute" can be seen just as clearly in their
    statistics as anywhere else.  How many top notch players do they have?
    Vaughn (no George, he isn't nearly as good as Thomas or Bagwell - but
    that wasn't really the argument here), Valentin, Clemens, Sele.  That's
    about it.  They've got a few more useful players, certainly, but they
    don't have the kind of talent that wins championships.
    
    Compare to the Yankees.  This past year, Mattingly, Boggs, Polonia,
    Williams, O'Neill, Stanley, Leyritz, and Key all had superior seasons.
    Toss in decent players in other roles - Kelly and Velarde and Tartabull
    and Abbott and Perez and Howe - and you've got a team that can
    challenge for the chapionship.
    
    Defense can win games - but not nearly as many as offense can.
    
    Joe

  I think the top Yankees are out hitting the Red Sox. Here are some Bill James
Runs Created numbers for the top 5 Yankees and Sox (I think):

Yankees                RC
Paul O'Neill          87.973
Wade Boggs            65.884
Danny Tartabull       61.904
Bernie Williams       61.625
Don Mattingly         52.329
                      ------ 
                     329.715

  And here are the top 5 Red Sox

Mo Vaughn             72.685
John Valentin         53.884
Mike Greenwell        51.332
Scott Cooper          51.252
Otis Nixon            45.581
                      ------ 
                     274.734

  That's a difference of 55 runs in about 100 games just counting the top 5
players on each team. And we haven't even looked at pitching. That's about 88
runs for the season which it seems could easily account for 20 or so games. And
we haven't added in the rest of the hitters.

  I may have missed a better Red Sox hitter but I doubt it.

  George

    
    
    
         But if the owners plan goes through he's a FreeAgent already??
    
    But
       Jimmy Key
         and
       Black Jack    is the best 1-2 duo in the AL!!!!!  :-)

    
    	The White Sox can not sign McDowell to a 5 yr, 30 mil contract.
    Once a new CBA is signed, Free Agency will be after 4 years. So
    McDowell is really a FA. The Yankee's are taking a chance that they
    can sign McDowell. The Yankee's are saying "Hey Jack, We want you
    to play in NY. To prove our point we are trading for you, knowing
    we can end up with nothing."
    
    	The Red Sox did the same thing with Terry Shumpert. The Royals
    will get a player to be named later. The deal is probably something
    to the effect of. If we sign him to a contract, you can pick 1 of these
    3 players. If we can't sign him and lose him, you can pick 1 of these
    three other players.
    
    Ron

    But since McDowell was a couple of months short of 6 years in MLB the
    Yankees can match any offer under the owners implemented CBA.
    Still a great deal for the Yanks as long as the PTBNL isn't Jeter.
    
    Mike

>    Still a great deal for the Yanks as long as the PTBNL isn't Jeter.

Or Ruben Rivera or Brien Taylor or Andy Pettite or Russ Davis....

He does have to come from the 40-man roster though...

>    But since McDowell was a couple of months short of 6 years in MLB the
>    Yankees can match any offer under the owners implemented CBA.

If these rules stick, the same will be true of Abbott.  If they keep both,
they'd have:
		Key-LHP
		McDowell-RHP
		Perez-RHP
		Abbott-LHP
		Hitchcock-LHP

 If they plan on getting 20 wins out of Black Jack they better plan on
 averaging 8 rund per game. This guy is more over-rated than Roger....

 mike

|If these rules stick, the same will be true of Abbott.  If they keep both,
|they'd have:

I thought I heard that they had all but given up on 
Abbott, and weren't going to try very hard to re-sign 
him.

=Bob=

    
>|If these rules stick, the same will be true of Abbott.  If they keep both,
>|they'd have:
>
> I thought I heard that they had all but given up on 
> Abbott, and weren't going to try very hard to re-sign 
> him.
    
    Yeah, at best McDowell will likely become a replacement for Abbott. 
    Keep in mind that while these new "rules" make McDowell and Abbott 
    only restricted free agents, the same rules will limit spending
    significantly for a team with a large existing payroll like the Yankees 
    from loading up.  So in beating the imposition of the new system by 
    one day the Yankees didn't buy themselves much, only right of first 
    refusal to the extent that their room under the cap allows it.  On the 
    other hand they didn't give up much.  The PTBNL will probably be an even 
    lesser figure than this Heberling guy...
    
    Of course the sad reality is that the players are not going to go along 
    with these rules in any case, and by the time any real settlement is
    reached all of these 6- year players will either be unrestricted or 35
    years old.  At one point I was holding out hope that the union would
    send their players back to work while they battle in court, but I'm not
    hearing anything like that.
    
    glenn
     

>    Yeah, at best McDowell will likely become a replacement for Abbott. 
>    Keep in mind that while these new "rules" make McDowell and Abbott 
>    only restricted free agents, the same rules will limit spending
>    significantly for a team with a large existing payroll like the Yankees 
>    from loading up.  So in beating the imposition of the new system by
>    one day the Yankees didn't buy themselves much, only right of first 
>    refusal to the extent that their room under the cap allows it.

Obviously, we have to wait and see what the cap limit is, but the Yanks have
already rid themselves of some big contracts:

	Mulholland, Hernandez, Nokes, Gallego, Velarde, and maybe Abbott

The remaining big-contract guys are:

	Tartabull, Mattingly, Boggs, O'Neill, Howe, Perez, Key, McDowell

Given their pursuit of McDowell over the last 1-2 yrs, I'll bet they
do whatever it takes to keep him (much to your dismay, Glen).

> Given their pursuit of McDowell over the last 1-2 yrs, I'll bet they
> do whatever it takes to keep him (much to your dismay, Glen).
    
    Not really.  Go back into any of the baseball notes and you'll see that
    long before there was any chance the Yankees would pick up McDowell, 
    I offered my opinion that he's overrated (I agree with MikeC on this 
    one) and certainly not worth a $30M kind of contract, especially under 
    a salary-cap system.  I like Abbott more, although admittedly he's
    disappointed.  If the Yankees are ever able to sign and use McDowell for 
    1-2 years, great, but I think that with all the innings he's put in with
    only a good performance hidden by the tremendous White Sox run support, 
    the Yankees will be getting more of the downside.  If he wouldn't sign
    for $30M and the Yanks have to pay anywhere near that it'll only have
    to come from some other player's bucket, and that contract will be an 
    anchor ...
    
    glenn
     

>    Of course the sad reality is that the players are not going to go along 
>    with these rules in any case, and by the time any real settlement is
>    reached all of these 6- year players will either be unrestricted or 35
>    years old.  At one point I was holding out hope that the union would
>    send their players back to work while they battle in court, but I'm not
>    hearing anything like that.
>    
>    glenn
     

     Is it true or not that, unless Congress removes baseball's antitrust
     exemption, the players will have to break up the union in order to take
     baseball back to court ?  Not sure I understand the law in this situation.

>     Is it true or not that, unless Congress removes baseball's antitrust
>     exemption, the players will have to break up the union in order to take
>     baseball back to court ?  Not sure I understand the law in this situation.

I believe that is true.  Because baseball is protected from anti-trust laws,
the union can't sue them (that's why they're filing with the Nat'l Labor
Relations Board - 'not bargaining in good faith' - immediately following
the owners' implementation).

>    If the Yankees are ever able to sign and use McDowell for 
>    1-2 years, great, but I think that with all the innings he's put in with
>    only a good performance hidden by the tremendous White Sox run support, 
>    the Yankees will be getting more of the downside.

I worried about innings spent when the Yanks were pursuing Maddox and
offering 6 yrs.  Obviously that concern wasn't valid.

I agree that he's not a sub-3 ERA guy, but he is an innings horse
(ala Jack Morris), and EVERY team can use one.  Given the Yanks'
use of their farm system, I'm not sure McDowell's money will prevent
them from contending.  Boggs', Mattingly's, Polonia's and Howe's contracts
are all up after this season.  Tartabull's is up a year later.  Key's
comes up during this time frame too.  They seem to have plenty of
salary options available to add veteran free agents to the emerging
cheap talent represented by Russ Davis, Andy Pettite, Derek Jeter,
Ruben Rivera, Matt Drews, Brien Taylor...

    
    
    
       Joe if god signed with the Yanks Glenn would say he has arm problems
    don't try to fight it just sit back and watch him and Key both win 20!
    
    
    Chap

    
    No, chappy, if the Yankees picked up Clemens, Glenn would expect
    20 wins.
    
    Jack McDowell is just no Roger Clemens.  He's a useful pitcher -
    he can provide year after year of 200+ innings, with a high-3s
    ERA.  That's useful.  If supported by 6-7 runs/game, not only
    is it useful, it's enough to win a lot of games.  If supported by
    3-4 runs/game, announcers start talking about how he's struggling,
    and how NY has affected him, and about righthanders in Yankee
    Stadium, and everything in the world _except_ the fact that he's
    just not getting the offensive support he needs.
    
    I'd rather have a David Cone or Roger Clemens, who can throw the
    innings while giving up fewer runs, but McDowell (assuming the Yankees
    can actually sign him) rarely hurts a team - unless signed to years
    in which he's less likely to be effective.
    
    Because, you see, over time that upper-3s ERA will creep to 4.00, then
    4.25, and so on.  See Jack Morris for a great example.  And, as the
    support needed rises, the 20 win seasons become fewer and fewer, until
    they dissapear altogether.  Those are the years McDowell will
    essentially be a boat anchor, whose only useful ability is eating up
    innings.
    
    Joe

God does have arm problems.  Why do you think he isn't pitching these days...

God used to be pretty good -- not as spectacular as Walter Johnson or
Cy Young, but he was right up there.


Now, Jesus, man could He pitch.  He has a fastball that would come in
with a little movement on it, sometimes rising, sometimes falling.  It was
great.  His curve was like watching a ball fall off the edge of a table.
And his changeup almost made time stand still.

Plus, Jesus was one of these pitchers who could pitch in any weather, you
know.  He could deal with a little rain and cold, although pitching in
Nazareth you got damn, oops, darn little of that.   

And strangely enough, there were times when we'd get a rainstorm just
when we needed it, after enough innings had been played to get the game
in, but before the opponents rally would kill us.  Amazing!


How do I know all this? 

I used to be His catcher on the Nazareth Carpenters.....


'Saw

    
    	What is tough to figure out about McDowell. Is that in close
    games in only gives up 1 or 2 runs. When he has a 5 or 6 run lead,
    he tends to coast a little. Why needle the corners on sliders and
    junk, he throws fastballs and lets them hit it.
    
    Ron

    Don't worry Yankee fans....Steinbrenner has dispatched G. Costanza to
    Cuba where Castro has given him carte-blanche to recruit the
    creme-de-la-creme of Cuban players.
    
    Mark.

>    What is tough to figure out about McDowell. Is that in close
>    games in only gives up 1 or 2 runs. When he has a 5 or 6 run lead,
>    he tends to coast a little. Why needle the corners on sliders and
>    junk, he throws fastballs and lets them hit it.
    
    And in big playoff games he gets the s^&% kicked out of him.  I'm not
    buying the conventional theory on McDowell.  I think such a theory may
    have had some truth in a very few pitchers but McDowell's not one of
    them.  Actually, last year his offensive support fell off to about 
    average, and he finished at only 10-9 on this very good ChiSox team 
    (strong second half, but in total nothing special).  Not something
    that's worth $6M/year in a longterm deal.  If he stays with the Yanks 
    I sincerely hope that it's with that type of contract.
    
    glenn
    

    
>    What is tough to figure out about McDowell. Is that in close
>    games in only gives up 1 or 2 runs. When he has a 5 or 6 run lead,
>    he tends to coast a little. Why needle the corners on sliders and
>    junk, he throws fastballs and lets them hit it.
    
    Nice theory; the reality is that, in his big win seasons, more often
    than not he gave up the 5 runs _first_, and then his team came back
    and bailed him out.  McDowell's primary plus, in those games, was
    that giving up 4 runs in the first two innings _wasn't_ a hint that
    he was worthless that night; he's settle down enough to give up only
    another run or 2 over the next 4/5 innings.
    
    Joe
    

It's amazing that he won the Cy Young two years ago.  You'd think the
voters would have seen through this 'needs-a-lot-of-runs-to-win' thing...
they definitely applied that thinking to Jimmy Key this year.

    >                      -< If they play ever again!!!!!!! >-
    
    Obviously they will.  The players appear to be not as unified as we
    thought.  This has become obvious with all the new contract signings 
    and player moves.

    
>It's amazing that he won the Cy Young two years ago.  You'd think the
>voters would have seen through this 'needs-a-lot-of-runs-to-win' thing...
>they definitely applied that thinking to Jimmy Key this year.
    
    Hah... the voters are perhaps _somewhat_ smarter about these things,
    but not much.  If you want the Cy Young, win the most games without
    _too_ bad an ERA (anything under 4.00 is enough); if you want the
    MVP, get the most RBI and keep your batting average reasonable
    (actually, the MVP awards of late have been pretty reasonable, but
    that's been more a function of the best players (like Thomas and
    Bonds) having top RBI numbers than the voters realizing what makes
    Thomas and Bonds the best.  (For striking evidence of this, note
    Williams in the NL this year - didn't have nearly the season Bonds
    did, but he had more HR and RBI, so he must have been more valuable,
    at least in the eyes of the MVP voters...)
    
    Joe

    
    
    
          Frankly now seeing all that Huber and WaugaheadMan has said I
    don't know why he's still in the league???  He should at best be in
    Albany or FT Lauderdale when the season starts!
    
    
           He is by far alot worse pitcher than Joe Hesketh and that great
    1 year wonder Aaron Sele!!
    
         I never said he was as good as Clemens in my opinion the best
    pitcher since Ron Guidry!!
    
    
    Chap

    
>          Frankly now seeing all that Huber and WaugaheadMan has said I
>    don't know why he's still in the league???  He should at best be in
>    Albany or FT Lauderdale when the season starts!
    
    Um, Chappy... where did I even _imply_ that he should be in Albany?
    All I said was that he's not as good as his reputation.  His reputation
    is that he's among the best in the game; the reality is he's currently
    a very useful pitcher.  That's all; he's certainly not _bad_; I even
    said that, provided the Yankee keep him, he'll be a valuable addition.
    
    Joe

|    >                      -< If they play ever again!!!!!!! >-
|    
|    Obviously they will.  The players appear to be not as unified as we
|    thought.  This has become obvious with all the new contract signings 
|    and player moves.

Actually, they are pretty unified.

I listened to Donald Fehr last night in an interview on WFAN and he
said that they did not tell the players not to sign new contracts etc.

He said that there was no disunity in signing an agreement to work for
an employer.  

At least, that's what he said.

    
>    Obviously they will.  The players appear to be not as unified as we
>    thought.  This has become obvious with all the new contract signings 
>    and player moves.
    
    It's not obvious at all.  Players have been advised by the union to go
    ahead and cut deals under _the old rules_ (this is the key) while they
    can.  No one including the players union believes that they'll ever
    receive a deal _better_ the expired bargaining agreement, at least not
    before years of court battles or intervention by Congress.  If anything, 
    some of the more ridiculous recent big-money signings only reinforce 
    the players' argument that if owners are ready and willing to shell out 
    the bucks in a more open market right up to literally days before 
    the owners are to pull the rug out, why should the players go along 
    with it?
    
    glenn
    

    
>    Frankly now seeing all that Huber and WaugaheadMan has said I
>    don't know why he's still in the league???  He should at best be in
>    Albany or FT Lauderdale when the season starts!
 
    Chap, last year there was euphoria in the streets of NY when the Yanks
    traded for "All-Star Game NL starting pitcher" Terry Mulholland and
    the guy went out and stunk like many of us said he might.  Now I don't 
    think that McDowell will be anything like that, but try and keep an
    open mind before you go out and order up WS rings for the next five 
    years.  All I've said is that the guy's not worth the $30M he thinks 
    he is.  Matter of fact, if you lose Abbott I'd say that it's a wash.
    Now I understand that you're upset that your first chance at winning 
    anything in the last 13 years was snatched away by strong-willed union
    men like your hero Don Mattingly, but that's no reason to be uncivil
    about a straightforward discussion... ;-)
    
    glenn
       
    

    
    
    
          I'm not bitter Glen, afterall my team has won a Championship this
    side of this CENTURY!  
    
            You won't realize your doing this but, everytime the Yanks sign
    someone you "usually" have something to sat derrogatory toward the
    signing. Do you see Yankee fans coming in here blasting the Canseco or
    Alicea signings, I didn't think so? Maybe it's Penis Envy??? I Don't
    know?

    
>    You won't realize your doing this but, everytime the Yanks sign
>    someone you "usually" have something to sat derrogatory toward the
>    signing.
    
    Yeah, right.  Like the way I liked the pick-ups of Boggs (you gotten
    your objectivity adjusted on this one yet?), Tartabull, the trades for 
    Abbott and O'Neill (the latter of which was pretty unpopular at the 
    time-- now the guy owns the damn city).  My apologies for not being in 
    love with guys like Spike Owen and Luis Polonia...
    
    glenn
    

  I agree McDowell has his weak points, but he'll give the Yankees some good
innings. Given a choice, I'd rather see him pitching for the Red Sox behind
Clemens and Sele rather than the Yanks behind Key and Abbot/Perez/Whatever. 

  And at least now the Yankees have someone who can play guitar.

  George

    
    C'mon Glenn, by now you know that if you say anything the least bit
    realistic about who the Yankees pick up, you're gonna get blasted by
    Yankee fans, especially Chappy.  You oughta know better by now, between
    here and ::Yankees.  I got nailed for laughing when they picked up
    Holzman, and it hasn't stopped since.
    
    brews

    
    
        Well brews at least you said realistic and not objective!!
    
    
    Chap

I've seen few people in here as objective as Glenn.....

    
    
    
         Yeah we know about how he's your hero 'Saw...
    
    
    
    chap

>    
>         Yeah we know about how he's your hero 'Saw...
>    
    
C'mon Chap, open up your eyes....

Glenn and I go head to head on lots o' things, including that faux-shortstop
Cal RipOffKin, who's trying to break the Immortal Iron Horse's record.

Cal is lucky my hired thug hasn't Gilloolied his knee yet...8^)


But I think Glenn is pretty objective -- so's Tommy when he's not
be a_agitator....


'Saw

RE       <<< Note 45.551 by CAMONE::WAY "I'll miss you, Rak, my friend" >>>

>Cal is lucky my hired thug hasn't Gilloolied his knee yet...8^)

  May well be the strike will "Gilloolied" his streak for you.

  George

    And everyone else but you realizes that in this context they men about
    the same thing.
    
    brews

>
>  May well be the strike will "Gilloolied" his streak for you.
>

Could be, but on the other hand, it could allow him to rest up.


At any rate, even if he breaks it, he should have a_asterisk which reads:


	* broke Gehrig's record with the benefit of a long strike
	  which allowed him to rest up and heal up, so he's really	
	  more like the Fiberglass Horse......



What do you think if that, Glenn??????  8^)

I didn't see any Yanks fan claiming we just locked up the WS with the
McDowell acquisition.  But Chap's got a point:  the pattern of Yankee
acquisition followed by Red Sox faithful providing unprovoked arguments
as to why such acquisition will NOT make the Yanks better - and in fact
hurt them in the future - is consistent.

    
    But with respect to most of the acquistions, we (and it has been mostly
    Glenn and I in notes) we've been correct.  Glenn's already mentioned
    Mulholland, when the Yankees got Gallego, I brought up his injury
    history with the A's and got hammered, I made jokes about Perez, and we 
    can go all the way back to Holzman.  On the otherhand, some of the
    pickups, like O'neil have been either ignored or praised.
    
    brews  

    Well, Chap described himself as "drooling", but that could be a
    permanent condition...
    
    Besides, someone has to keep these Yankee fans and media pawns in line.
    I grant that they've got some damn good prospects (and that's where the
    excitement should be, not Black Jack or $3M-already-washed-out-of-NYC-
    once-but-coming-back-for-more-punishment Tony Fernandez), but even then
    you've still got to have some minor-league Yankee goon proclaiming 
    Ruben Rivera as "the best thing to come along since Mickey Mantle" (I'm
    not making that up) and the media lapping it up to sort of spoil it 
    all.
    
    glenn
     
    

RE       <<< Note 45.554 by CAMONE::WAY "I'll miss you, Rak, my friend" >>>

>Could be, but on the other hand, it could allow him to rest up.

  Unless they play with scabs and he decides not to cross the line in which
case his record attempt is dead.

  George

   > Ruben Rivera as "the best thing to come along since Mickey Mantle" (I'm   
   > not making that up) and the media lapping it up to sort of spoil it    
   > all.
    
    Bigger than the other "next Mickey Mantle," Bam Bam Muelens?  Wow!!
    Those are big shoes to fill!!!
    
    brews

>   > Ruben Rivera as "the best thing to come along since Mickey Mantle" (I'm   
>   > not making that up) and the media lapping it up to sort of spoil it    
>   > all.
    
>    Bigger than the other "next Mickey Mantle," Bam Bam Muelens?  Wow!!
>    Those are big shoes to fill!!!

But maybe he's bigger than Jay Buhner, another over-hyped Yankees prospect,
who devoted Red Sox fans would love to see in a Boston uniform.

Every organization hypes its prospects, especially by likening them to
former organizational stars.  This kills some Yankees prospects 'cause
their former stars are mega-bigger-than-life heros.  I know I'm aware of
this, and guard against it at the same time.  But when Rivera's name came
up last winter as someone another organization wanted in a package, before
he put up awesome #s at just the single-A level...and then he goes to Arizona
and was among the leaders in either HRs or RBI or both...and then we read
that the Yanks rejected an offer of Barry Larkin for him and Jeter...well,
then you have to pay attention.

|>Could be, but on the other hand, it could allow him to rest up.
|
|  Unless they play with scabs and he decides not to cross the line in which
|case his record attempt is dead.

It's been a long week.  I never even thought of that....


Give me one big DUH for the record books.....

                    <<< Note 45.561 by USCTR1::GARBARINO >>>

>Every organization hypes its prospects, especially by likening them to
>former organizational stars.  This kills some Yankees prospects 'cause
>their former stars are mega-bigger-than-life heros.  

  That's for sure. Gregg Jefferies comes to mind as someone overwhelmed by
the big apple playing for that other team across town.

  As soon as he got away from the New York press he started lighting up
pitchers like Time Square.

  George

    
          Lou and the Babe are rolling over in there graves today!!
    
    Rudy Arias
    Juan Valasquez
    Mike Pitz
    Dan Simonds
    Dennis Sweeney
    
        These "people" are now wearing Pinstripes. 

I'll say it again.  I hope, when there is finally a settlement of this
dispute, that it is agreed that the record of baseball will not be
soiled with the results of scab games.

Steve

    
> I'll say it again.  I hope, when there is finally a settlement of this
> dispute, that it is agreed that the record of baseball will not be
> soiled with the results of scab games.
    
    Why?  The record books don't ignore the replacement players for
    the Detroit Tigers who played when Cobb was suspended - why ignore
    the feats (such as they are/might be) of replacement players now?
    Rewriting history, even in something as trivial as baseball records,
    does no one any good.
    
    Joe

    
    
         So in what your saying Joe, say some Joe Smoe comes in and hits 65
    dingers this year against pitchers that can barely reach 80 MPH on
    their fastballs? 
    
            You think Hank and the Babe should be knocked down one notch?
    
    
    Chap

    I agree, the records should count.  As much as I don't like it, if Cal
    decides to sit, he loses his streak.  I guess this is where we find out
    just how serious the players are.  That'd be a damn shame, but the game
    should go on.  It's was the players choice to walk last August and it's
    their choice to sit now.
    
    
    Spud

Anyone see that FINE speciman of a player in a Dodgers uniform trying to
leg out a hit?

Well, folks, the 'Saw isn't that fat, nor am I that slow.  I've been
ecstatic since I saw that last evening on the news.  

I'm closing up shop here early today and heading for Florida.  Perhaps
I can catch on with some team of scabs, uh, er, replacement players!


'Saw

Hell, I'd be perfectly willing to disgrace myself in public if it got
me an entry in the Baseball Encyclopedia.

But I don't think it should.

Steve

    
>         So in what your saying Joe, say some Joe Smoe comes in and hits 65
>    dingers this year against pitchers that can barely reach 80 MPH on
>    their fastballs? 
>    
>            You think Hank and the Babe should be knocked down one notch?
    
    Well, it depends upon what you mean.  Does it mean that Joe Smoe should
    hold the major league record for HR in a season? - yes it does.  Does
    it stand up up against the accomplishments of Ruth & Aaron? - no,
    clearly it does not.
    
    To use another example - during WWII the best ballplayers in the world
    weren't (with rare exception) playing MLB.  Should we not include the
    records of the "replacement players" from then?
    
    I just can't see any way that ignoring replacement games helps matters
    any...
    
    Joe

If these games are played, they have to count (standings, record books,
whatever).  The owners are selling a product.  Can you imagine the problems
they'll create for themselves if the MLPA players come back and the owners
wipe the slate clean and start the '95 season over again ?  I would expect
fans, TV and radio companies to come banging on their doors looking for
refunds.  Hell, the replacement players themselves may have a claim...for
whatever reason.

>    To use another example - during WWII the best ballplayers in the world
>    weren't (with rare exception) playing MLB.  Should we not include the
>    records of the "replacement players" from then?
    
>    Joe

     Exactly what I was going to say.  SHould we just rewrite history and say
     the St.Louis Browns never made the world series, just because the only
     time they made it was during the talent drought of WW II ?

While I'm not a fan of replacement players, and if I go to the ballpark
it'll be to heckle as opposed to cheer, I must say that one interesting
point is how the standings will look when/if the real guys come back.

Imagine the Yankees being in last place at 4-40 when their team comes back.
Imagine the Red Sox being 35-9 and in first place.  Will the replacement
players have given enough cushion to keep the talents of the real guys
from getting things back to normal (yanks in first, sox in last)?

Time will tell I guess.


At any rate, I'm getting my vocal cords in shape.  I wanna bust some
plumber's butt when he dogs it in right field at Fenway like Romine
did that day!


'Saw

No, I wouldn't write the St. Louis Browns out of history, because the
players were the best available.  We are fortunate that none of baseball's
most cherished records fell in the War years, however.

The players of scab games will not be the best available.  Teams will
not promote prospects from the high minor, because of the effect that
would have on their careers post-strike.  Rather, they will use retired
players, Northern Leaguers, and maybe even the Chainsaw.

My hope is that a settlement will come soon enough that scab games can
credibly be treated as a small number of non-events, and that the
true season would start in however long was needed for players to get
ready.

This is a increasingly forlorn hope, however.

Steve

>>The players of scab games will not be the best available.

	I suspect they will, however, be the best available who are
	willing, or have a desire, to play.

	I have a real problem with the moniker of "scab" games. I grew
	up in an extremely pro-union household (my dad is a retired
	Teamster who held the position of shop steward for over 20 years).
	But I tend to loose respect for working stiffs who, for whatever 
	petty reason, take action to go out on strike, then become extremely
	violent and angry towards other folks who happen not to agree 
	with their complaints.

	To me it's the same disgusting feeling I get when I see a fan 
	from one team physically, or verbally, attack a fan of another
	team just because they have different allegiances.

	Needless to say my father and I are in complete disagreement on
	this subject, but we've each been able to see the other's point
	of view.


	billl

>	I have a real problem with the moniker of "scab" games. I grew
>	up in an extremely pro-union household (my dad is a retired
>	Teamster who held the position of shop steward for over 20 years).
>	But I tend to loose respect for working stiffs who, for whatever 
>	petty reason, take action to go out on strike, then become extremely
>	violent and angry towards other folks who happen not to agree 
>	with their complaints.

EXCELLENT point Bill, and well stated.  My feelings exactly.  Most union
actions take the form of a work stoppage, and replacements basically cut
them off at the knees...they're a threat to their existance.  Violent
actions, and comments from people like David Cone (any minor league player
playing in replacement games is effectively ending his ML career) should
be dealt with legally.  The MLPA is a joke...a bunch of hypocrites.
They want freedom "like everybody else" but only for themselves.
These replacement players should have the freedom (from violence and
threat of future actions) to play.  They aren't a part of this union.

The players cry foul when it comes to the owners having a 'monopoly',
yet they want to control the industry's labor market !!

One excellent point I heard last evening on the radio was that a lot
of labor unions have made concessions lately, in terms of giving back
some stuff, and taking paycuts, ostensibly to try and help out the 
economy.

They contrasted that with the MLPA, which is trying to get more and more.


'Saw

I could care less about baseball.

However, any and all attempts to make the union out the bad guy in this
situation is misguided. I think this is a case where labor and management
share all the blame equally.

And in terms of concessions, what ones were made by the owners?

TTom

Come now, it's a known and accepted fact that the players have 
won every labor dispute prior to the current one.

daryll

    So what does that have to do with anything? In the 100 years before
    that the owners had the players by the ganolies. 
    
    Mike

For the record, I think BOTH sides are at fault.

Speaking of unions, I caint see how they coulda possibly done any more
damage to Digital Equipment Corporation than the lasted couple of years
of management.

I mean look at what our leaders have accomlished without a union. Loss of
revenue and profit; we once were a_Excellent company and now were in the
bottom 10; we continue down the path with no direction and no clue.

Unions seem to be one of the favorite targets for victim mongering. It's
always a safe bet to blame things on unions. It plays in Peoria. And just
like the SLT edicts, it matters not in formulating solutions.

TTom 

>
>I mean look at what our leaders have accomlished without a union. Loss of
>revenue and profit; we once were a_Excellent company and now were in the
>bottom 10; we continue down the path with no direction and no clue.
>

I'll say here about the SLT what I said about George Young over in 
Giants:

	They couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a
	field full of horny clues if they smeared their bodies with clue
	musk and did the clue mating dance.


hth,
'Saw

re: unions

As someone pointed out to me, the MLPA is NOT a union.  Typically unions
negotiate terms of employment, grievance procedures, and wages.  The MLPA is an
association of players, negotiating general conditions.  A union signs a
contract with the employer, whereas each player negotiates and signs their own
contract.

I get a kick out of hearing unions coming out in support of their "union
bretherin" in the MLPA.  Do they really think the MLPA would do the same?

=Bob=

MLPA isa as much a union as any other.

The primary purpose of a union is to provide collective bargaining to
their membership. In this particular union, like the actors union deals
with all the same issues as any other union except for individual wages.
Wages in gerneral are covered by the collective bargaining of this union.
For example, they have agreed to salary minimums. Also free agency
compensation is agreed upon.

MLPA has in the past signed contracts with the employers. The lasted one
has expried, hence the strike/walkout/lockout/fiasco.

What we have here is a case in point to show that unions are not
monolithic organizations where they're all alike. Each union deals with
the issues in the way that the membership votes. 

Football and Basketball have similar unions.

TTom

and they're acting UNITEDLY against mgmt/ownership...

A guy temping in my area used to work at Raytheon, a union job. 
Tells us stories of how, on the manufacturing floor, the 
production manager knew that part a needed to be at workstation b 
asap if they were to meet the delivery date to the govt. the 
distance from where part A was currently and workstation b was 3 
feet. He could not move part A from it's current location to 
workstation b. That was the material handlers job. Anyone who saw 
someone overstep his boundary and do such a thing and reported it 
got a days pay as a reward. How nice. Just the type of atmosphere 
anyone would want to work in.

Unions may not have done any worse, but I doubt they would've 
done any better here.

daryll

I could tell you stories of doing music jobs (both union and non-union)
where I've gotten in trouble for moving my own music stand!

Swear to God, I was doing a job one night at the Bushnell and the stage
manager pulled me aside and told me I had been seen moving a music stand
and that moving my own stand wasn't allowed.  That's what the stage
hands were for......

Go figure.

'Saw