Conference pasta::flex

    Re 1330.17
    
    Reg,
    You made a notation that a pro veg bb'ers you knew said he had to eat
    huge amounts of food to get the protein he needed, and he hinted that
    he used other means to achieve his physique.  Do you know how long he
    had been working to get that way?  The reason I ask is because of the
    natural vs. well, for lack of a better word, 'unnatural' body building.
    I used to be very big. Very. Very low body fat, and about 15 pounds 
    more muscle than I have on me now.  It took me a long time to get that
    way, and once I had decided I was going to compete, I decided I didn't
    like the way I looked and the time it consumed (hours and hours in the
    gym, tons and tons of preparation time for food). I dropped back on the
    work, decreased the food, increased the cardio work, and it dropped off.
    Most of it, anyway.  I did it veg, but it was tremendous work, and took
    YEARS ot get there.
    
    I wonder if some of the pro veg bb'ers don't take the time to work up 
    to it? If they want to be 'this' big in 2 years? I agree, you can't 
    get there as a vegetarian in 2 years without anabolic help. Nor can 
    you get there in 2 years by eating meat without anabolic help, however.
    
    Then that begs the question of how far can you go naturally, veg or
    meat-eater?  Is there a genetic set-point of how large a human's
    muscles can get without steroids?
    
    Has anybody ever been to a TRULY natural show, and found out if any of
    the participants were vegetarians?  That's where I'd like to see the
    argument play itself out.  There is always a questions in peoples minds
    at the natural shows, wondering if they are all truly natural, or just
    natural for the past few months?  Did they do a few cycles a while ago 
    to get the mass, then drop off and go natural in order to compete? Do 
    they have implants?
    
    It is more work, I'll grant you that. It's more food, probably, which
    means more activity to use up the extra calories. But that's the same
    issue with omnivores - for more quality nutrients, you have to eat more
    food and work off those extra calories, or supplement.  You have to
    choose the food wisely, in either case. 
    
    Sarah

    Not to interupt, but what about the original question:  how much
    variety is needed in a vegetarian diet in order to get a fully balanced
    diet?
    
    To use the meat and potatos example, that, along with some garlic
    bread a strawberry shortcake twice a day would probably provide
    everything a beginner body builder would need (there's no doubt that
    advanced training requires more).
    
    What about a vegetarian diet.  The comment was made that most would-be
    vegetarians go wrong trying to eat nothing but pasta and salad.  How
    much more variety is needed to ensure that a healthy, growing
    individual will not short change themselves?
    
    I am curious because, both for health (many dimensions) and personal
    preference, I eat very little red meat, and then usually only if I cook
    it myself, and usually then in casseroles.  I still eat chicken and
    fish.  However, I eat enough of it that I don't hesistate to eat
    "vegetarian" from time to time.  That is, just a salad (cheese is
    okay), or vegetarian pasta (eggplant parm, etc.).
    
    I know I'm in no danger of having an unbalanced diet, but I'm curious
    how much effort goes into to making that last stage of the transition,
    from "mostly" vegetarian, to completely vegetarian.
    
    I understand that there are roughly 5 classes of vegetarian, ranging
    from no red meat, to no dairy products.  I think I'd have to stop short
    at the dairy products.  I may give up beef, but not hot fudge
    sundaes or chocolate cake!!!  :-)
    
    jeb
    

    
    
    Sarah
    
    I think I am beginning to understand some of this, but Sarah, if I am
    not mistaken your not a pure vegetarian but consume lots of milk
    byproducts right?  If you cut out everything but veggies, what would
    the diet have to be.  I looked up navy beans and found out 8 oz cooked
    gives you a whopping 17 grams of protien, but is it all the essential
    aminos.  Do you in addition to eating navy beans have to eat something
    else too?  I know my info on being a vegetarian is really dated, but I
    really thought that there is no plant with all your essential amino
    acids.  
    
    I in no way am poking holes in your vegetarist beliefs, just trying to
    understand it because this is an interesting topic to me.  I really
    wonder if there are any pure vegetarian bodybuilders with a build big
    enough to compete on a local level.  I don't believe that could happen
    in the pro's because of all the steriod use and anyone who is focused
    on purity of vegetables certainly would not use juice.
    
    Brian

    OK, let me see if I can make it understandable. I could eat those navy
    beans for protein. So where is my calcium?  Greens. Greens also supply
    iron. So maybe some beans, some spinach and swiss chard salad. Where's
    my beta carotene? Oh yeah, add in some carrots. Maybe squash. 
    Potassium? Some potatoes. Or yams, that's a bonus with vitamin A and C.
    So I've got 1 cup of beans, a small green salad, an orange veggie, and
    some potatoes.  A glass of soy milk, a piece of whole-wheat bread, and
    I'm good for that meal.  Enough nutrients, calories, food.
    You see, it isn't any more difficult than a well-balanced meat-based
    diet. Just my protein source is a little different. Put meat in your
    tomato sauce? I use tofu, or seitan, and mushrooms. Did you know
    mushrooms have protein in them?  The only difference between my diet
    and yours it the protein SOURCE.  You use meat, or eggs. I use other
    'things'.  You could eliminate ALL dairy and still get enough protein
    with soy products. My son is sensitive to milk, so he drinks a soy
    drink. It has more protein, A, C, Calcium, Potassium, Iron, more than
    all of the ingredients in regular milk. And it's lower in fat. That's a
    problem with a growing, active, athletic little boy, so I have to find
    ways to add in some fat. French fries work terrific!  People think a
    vegetarian diet is high in fat. It used to be. But the market has
    responded by offering lower fat or fat-free soy versions of everything,
    including cheeses. So what we get are calorie dense (not necessarily
    fat-dense), nurtient-dense substitutes for animal based products.  You
    can eat poorly on a veg diet, and suffer terribly. You could just eat
    meat and potatoes, and suffer terribly. It's a matter of balance.
    
    I don't eat a lot of dairy. Maybe a couple of cartons of yogurt a day.
    One carton is 7 gr. protein, so there's another 14 grs. I eat lentils,
    beans, tofu, seitan, mushrooms on a daily basis, so I probably get a
    good 70-80 grs. without even trying. If I drink soy milk, there's a 8
    more. Maybe I eat some soy cheese. Add a couple more grams. A slice of
    cheese on my veggie burger (super-protein veggie burgers usually have
    about 20 gr. protein in them), and I've already had way too much
    protein for the amount of lifting I'm doing at the moment.  If I'm on a
    bulking circuit, I start to look at the amount of protein I'm eating
    and increase accordingly. But I'm in maintenance right now, so I don't
    think about it much.
    Is this helping?  I guess it's hard for me to explain, because I must
    do this unconsciously and it's hard for you to grasp it.  I don't think
    I put any more thought into my meal planning than I do for the rest of
    my family (son and husband eat meat).  A starch, a protein, a green,
    and an orange veggie. Isn't that pretty much the quintessential
    American meal?  Oh, and the chocolate cake. Or cheesesake!  There's
    protein in cheesecake! : ) : ) : )
    How can I help make this easier to understand?  What connection to you
    am I missing? Maybe I can do a meal-to-meal comparison?
    Sarah
     
    

    Sure, that makes sense.  I think the problem for non-veggies in
    understanding this is that (a) most non-veggies automatically think of
    fruits and salads when the term "vegetarian" comes up, and (b) most
    non-veggies don't have a clue about alternative protein sources.  For
    example, I know there's this stuff called "soy", and I've seen
    "vegetarian" hamburgers in the freezer before.
    
    But, if you are a healthy eater (not veggy, just healthy) you probably
    keep a good distance from the frozen food section anyway.  As such,
    those "niche" items you notice in the freezer while searching for
    bagels don't seem very appealing.
    
    In other words, like anything else (like health programs!) the term
    "vegetarian" is really a major subject matter, and most people aren't
    familiar with more than the surface of it.
    
    Frankly, most people aren't even familiar with the concepts of healthy
    eating at all, much less vegetarian eating.  
    
    So, I concede your point.  Eating vegetarian is quite similar to eating
    non-vegetarian.  Its just that since its still isn't as mainstream as
    it could/should be, most people don't understand the concepts and
    wealth of alternatives available, and tend to ask questions like "how
    do you get your basics from salad?", which is the counterpoint to your
    original question, "how do you get basics from meat and potatos?", and
    the answer is, you don't.
    
    jeb
    

    Thanks Sarah
    
    I really am dated on my information on Protien and amino acid contents
    and you helped to bring me up to date.  You mix your meals just like I
    do in my normal diet.  The only differnce between us, is I add a lot of
    chicken and turkey to my meals.  But I balance my meals with the same
    thought process you do.  for instance to my stir fry I add chicken in
    addition to the tofu, bean sprouts and mushrooms, carrots, celery,
    oinions and peppers.  In one crispy meal you get a whopping amount of
    greens, yellows and protiens.  Only difference is I add chicken, but
    the meal planning process is the same.  
    
    So if I get the base of your note right, vegetable protien is identical
    to animal protien in structure? So that meal planning is the same on
    both sides, you just use for example beans and soy products in place of
    chicken or steak.
    
    Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me.  I know I now have
    updated my antiquated vegetarian knowledge base.
    
    Brian

    Glad I could help! See? I'm not a two-headed plant-eater! However, my
    son does refer to me as a Brachiosaurus (that huge plant-eating gentle
    dinosaur in Jurrasic Park) ; )
    Sarah
     

    I got a T shirt from my daughter, when she was in kindergarden. It was
    a fathers day gift. It was a T shirt with a dinasour on the back in
    her best coloring. And on the front, it said, "Dad-O-Souras'.:) Wonder
    if there was a hint in that message. Anyhow, I still wear it proudly
    when I workout.:)