Conference 7.286::atarist

I just ran across a feature of NEODESK which I can not find in the
documentation nor have I heard or read it mentioned anywhere else before. 

This is regarding installed applications which you have specified to run when
you double click on files with a particular extension (ie: data files).
Normally when you double click on a data file the application is started and
the name of the data file is passed to the application. If (this is the
feature) you hold down the CONTROL key while you double click on a data file,
the installed application will run but the file name will NOT be passed to it.

A useless feature you say! Maybe, maybe not. I have installed the file viewer
called "Quick View" with the specified data file extension of *. So anytime I
double click on a non executable file (and non .ARC and non .PI? and... but
I'll explain that in another note :-) Quick View pops up and displays the file
for me. (MUCH nicer than NEODESKs built in file viewer.) Now, Quick View has
this real nice feature that after you are done looking at the current file you
can ask it to display another file WITHOUT having to go back to the desk top
and "re-run Quick View". The problem is that Quick View disables this nice
feature IF a file name was passed to it when it was started up. So (if you
haven't figured it out by now) if you know you are going to want to view more
than one text file you can use the afore mentioned NEODESK feature to start up
Quick View with NO file name being passed to it and THEN you can have it load
one file after another. This also allows me to view a text file which is not
in my current directory, without having to open another window and/or change
directories.

Can anyone think of any other uses for this feature?

	Ray

I seem to remember the NeoDesk author saying something about multiple file
selections.  Have you tried selecting multiple files before starting the
viewer?  It may not deal with that method, but then again, maybe it will.

						-Dave

That's a bit different but...

I have not tried the multiple file technique with the viewer but I have used
it with MicroEmacs. It works great but it only allows you to view (edit) files
which are in the current window (ie: any files which you normaly can select at
any one time). The manual explains how this is done but since it was not
explained in the place I thought it would be I will explain it here. You
select the files (in this case text files) the same as you normaly would (ie:
click and strech the rubber banding box, shift click, etc..) and then hold the
shift key while you double click on the application (MicroEmacs) you want to
start. Then the names of all selected files will be passed to the application.

Which is different (but very usefull) than double clicking on a data file and
having the associated application start up no matter where it is located
(ie:it does not have to be in any current window or on the desktop as is true
in the case above).

	Ray

PRNSYS::DUA2:[LOMICKAJ.HOBBY.ST]JEFF.NIC contains my current icon set. 
It's a STREAM_LF file, so watch the file attributes!  You have to
"CVTARC V" this before downloading with Whack.

In here, along with the usual stuff that comes with NEOdesk, you will find:

- The "Official" WHACK Icon.  It's a copy of the Whack desktop background fish.

- A modification of the FLASH icon to include a drive letter where the
telephone dial used to be, and with the modem buttons and lights moved
to match the DF224.

- A very nice PHA$AR icon of my own design, with a spot for the "drve
letter".  It looks like half of a 1$ bill, with the drive letter
indicating the "place the bill was printed".

- A complete replacement for the default "program" icon - mine looks
more like the original desktop icon (A GEM window), and has a highly
visible drive letter. 

- An enlarged hard disk icon, to make it more visible on the desktop.

- A modified "icon editor" icon that includes a drive letter.

- A GOOD Backup Utility icon that looks something like the envelope the
product comes in.

- A Miroemacs icon that looks like you have a couple of files in windows.

- An MSH icon that shows a "C:\" prompt, followed by a cursor.

- A variation of the Whack fish.

All of my custom icons include a location for the drive letter, so that
the corresponding program can be invoked by double-clicking the
associated letter.

I'm working right now on a VMS program that will let you preview these
at your terminal.

Okay.  PRNSYS::DUA1:[LOMICKAJ.HOBBY.ST]ICONVIEW.EXE will let you view
NEODESK ".NIC" files on your terminal.  The source code is there also,
ICONVIEW.C, and should run on Ultrix without changes.  To run this on
the Atari itself, you will have to no-op out the "swaplong()" and
"swapshort()" routines, but it otherwise *should* work there also if
you have a C compiler.

Install as a foreign command:

$ iconview :== $sys$login:iconview.exe

The program takes one parameter, which must be a STREAM_LF version of a
.NIC files.  If the filename is not present or cannot be opened, the
program will crash with an access violation.

For example:

$ iconview JEFF.NIC

The program only will display up to 100 icons of a .NIC file, but you
can raise that limit in the source if you need more.

If anybody can figure out what the "whoknows1" word means, please let
me know.

The sequence

$ DEFINE/USER SYS$OUTPUT JEFF.LOG
$ ICONVIEW JEFF.NIC

will capture the result to a text file.

I've found the small limit for number of files on the desktop to be a severe 
limit.  So I'm using the multiple desktop concept.  The upper right icon on my
screen is the current .inf file.  In all except the root desktop, the upper 
left file icon (next to the drive A icon) is the root desktop, neodesk_m.inf. 
In the center of the top row are several desktop icons for various categories 
of programs.  At this point they are just desk_1m.inf, desk_2m.inf, etc. 

Since these files are not applications, it seems to not be possible to select 
them with keystrokes.  So I use the mouse.  But double clicking them only views 
them, it does not invoke the change-desktop function.  Too bad "install 
application" does not work for this.  So I use ^L as a quicker alternative than 
the pulldown.  But this takes either two hands or a long uncomfortable reach.  
I'd like to swap the ^L and ^D key bindings.   Maybe I can find out where to 
patch this.

I would like to be able to run low rez applications from a medium rez neodesk. 
I figure that there's probably some way to do it via a .bat file with the Mark 
Williams shell (msh) or perhaps by a .tos or .prg file which changes resolution,
calls the low rez application, returns to med rez, then exits. 

Has anyone tried anything along these lines? 

I finally received my NeoDesk 3 update after waiting 10 weeks.  The 
version is 3.01  I welcome the ability to use NeoDesk in low resolution.  
So far, I've found that NeoChrome does not work with NeoDesk.  This 
applies equally to NeoChrome version 0.9 and the new "NeoChrome Master".
Does anyone else have any NeoDesk 3 observations? 

        I've had my copy for about a month now and of course love it!  It
        generally works with all the things I use, though I have noticed
        a few glitches in some terminal emulation software, but I don't
        think I can blame that on any paticular piece of software as I've
        done a major upgrade of several pacakages in the same time frame.
        
        Things that so far seem to work fine with are -
        
                        TOS 1.4
                        UIS III
                        Quick ST V2.5 (I think)
                        Quik Tools V2.2
                        G+Plus V??
                        WordUp V3.0, latest release
                        True Basic V2.0
                        Whack (latest) - though it seems to deteroiate
                                         after several hours of use, but
                                         I'd bet it is the VMS cluster.
                        ST_Talk Pro V2.0c - works though some minor
                                         functions get flakey.
                        VanTerm V3.7 - Keys don't always work.
                        ICD V4.1 hard disk driver
                        All of the Kids Progs now that low res works.
                        Phasar V4.0
                        SEDT V4.xxx
                        DCopy V3.14
        
        I'm quite happy with it, but can't really seperate it from UIS,
        G+plus and Quick ST, these are all part of the system to me now.
        It sure makes the ST a lot more useable than DECwindows would.
        
        Bob

    Hello , Is it possible to have any product that you describe in .9 on
    easynet or where is possible to have this.
    	I'am in France and i haven't any of many program.

        Check out note 9.xxx for some of the available products -
        
                Whack
                SEDT
                Uniterm
        
                Van Term is currently at V3.8 and is a shareware product.
                don't have the current release as his bbs number has been
                disconnected.
        
        The rest are commerical products and can't be put ont the net.
        
        Bob

    Can anyone supply me with the address and phone number of a reputable
    mail-order company (or any relative company), that sells/distibutes
    the latest NEODESK (V3 i believe) in the UK. 
    
    Thanks in advance,
    
    				Lewis.

	EVESHAM MICROS
	Unit 9, St Richards Rd,
	Evesham, Worcs, WR11 6XJ.
	Phone: 0386 765500

	NEODESK V3 #29.95 pound inc VAT & Delivery

    Thanks,
    
    Apparantly it's on it's way. I hope i'm just as impressed as all you
    guys are...
    
    Regards,
    
    				Lewis.

    Yep, it was well worth it!
    
    NeoDesk is a great help with the organizing of my desktop.
    
    Now, i have just one other question... ;-)
    
    I want to load a .NEO picture onto the back of the desktop. The picture
    is apparantly LOW RES. I only use MED RES, and want to convert the
    picture accordingly. Does anyone know how i can change the .NEO file
    from LOW to MED ?
    
    Many thanks in advance (again!)...
    
    					Lewis.

    
    I was asked the same question, by a friend of mine right after
    he purchased NEOdesk...  I've seen medium-res NEO files metioned
    elsewhere, but I'm pretty sure I get a "wrong resolution" message
    If I try to fire up NEOchrome in medium-res...
    
    I'm curious too...
    
    _John_
    

    Use picswitch7. Picswitch7 will allow you to convert various formats
    to NEO,ELITE or DEGAS any resolution, and it will allow you to view
    them before and after conversion. It's a realy neat and useful program
    Picswitch is shareware.
    
    Bill

Speaking of NeoDesk - be sure to get the NeoDesk 3.02 upgrade when it
becomes available.  I beta-tested the upgrade kit to 3.02, and it's
pretty neat.  They now have a "desk accessory" that will call up a
NeoDesk desktop in a window inside any GEM application.  Now, in the
middle of (say) PageStream, you can move some files around, check free
space, or just gawk at the neat NeoChrome picture you are using for the
background.

The NeoDesk CLI is neat too - TOS applications run in the CLI window
instead of taking over the whole screen.

    
    Are there any plans that they make a Neodesk version available
    which replaces the desktop in EPROM?
    
    Bernd
    

NeoDesk is bigger than what will comfortably fit in the ROMs, and still
have room for VDI, AES, GEMDOS, XBIOS, and BIOS.

    re .17
    
    Thanks Bill,
    
    I managed to get it off the net (actually i got PICSWTCH6), and it
    works a treat. Only one thing though, it seems to change the colour
    once laying down on the NEODESK desktop... ie. a Black and White
    picture saved in MED resolution (when reviewed it still showed in
    Black and White), turns out to be red on the desktop!
    
    Does PICSWTCH7 handle this? Also does PICSWTCH7 handle TINY pictures?
    I have a load of scanned images in TINY, that i would prefer to use,
    rather than the NEO files.
    
    Thanks again in advance,
    
    Regards,
    
    				Lewis.

    
    Hi Lewis,
    
    I have picsw7.arc in my Atari archive.
    
    (Ultrix machine)
    
    Notso::/usr/users/pat/st
    
    Cheers
    
    Pat
    

    Can someone please describe what Neodesk does and what makes it
    particularly useful. I am new to the Atari world so sorry for
    the dumb questions.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Errol
    

        Basically, it's a replacement for the standard GEM desktop to give
   you additional facilities. The main things are:-
   	Customisable icons,
   	Being able to store applications/folders on the desktop so you don't
   	 need to navigate to their folder in a window to access them,
   	Being able to define basic macros to tie to keys
   	Easy switching between text and icon display in a window
   	Being able to duplicate a window
        ... many others... :-)
   
   	If you've got a hard disk and do more than playing games, I'd say
   that it's definitely worth getting. 

    There's a lot of little things that make it worthwhile.
    
    When copying from one floppy disk to another with a single drive,
    Neodesk performs the copy with a minimum of disk swaps, for example.
    
    You can write yourself notes on the desktop just like it was a deskpad.
    
    You can put a picture on your desktop.
    
    You can change the name of a folder.
    
    You can split an open window into two parts.
    
    You can call the desktop as an accessory from within an application (!)
    
    You can select files with a special item selector which makes things
    like getting rid of all the .bak files a snap.
    
    You get support for a Viking monitor (1280 x 1040 pixels).
    
    etc. etc.
    
    Gil
    

    Thanks for the info guys, sound like something that I will get.(If 
    it not too expensive)
    It's just a single floppy system, but I could use the customize
    icon and better copying with a single floppy features now.
    
    Errol

    
    Hi, I wouldnt reccommend using Neodesk with a floppy base system.
    
    When you run an application, neodesk gives up it memory, apart from a
    few K. whenever you go back to desktop Neodesk reloads off the disk,
    and its a hundred odd k big. It takes a long time off a floppy.
    
    Pat
    

Not neccessarily true. You can tell Neodesk NOT to remove itself from memory.
In whcih case there is no extra floppy access when getting in and out of
applications. I don't recall how much memory Neodesk takes up when you keep it
in memory but it is at least a couple hunered k. Which means you want at least
a meg of memory (depending on the applications you use) if you are going to
run it this way.

	Ray

    I recently purchashed NEODESK v3.02 bundled with 1STWORDPLUS v3.20 from
    SILICA SHOP at the COMPUTER SHOPPER exhibition at WEMBLEY (59 pounds).
    
    I am still learning but my first impressions are that it is much better
    than the built in desktop. Yep, it is a bit of a pain waiting for
    NEODESK to re-load after terminating an application but yes you can
    keep it resident in memory. The problem at the moment is I only have
    512KB of memory (soon gets eaten up). OK, I will upgrade to 2 or 4MB in
    the future (the beast is still under warranty so I don't want to open
    her up yet). My first two ATARI 520STe's had problems (unlucky - you
    bet).
    
    One problem that I have noticed is:-
    I have a CLOCK module that plugs into the CARTRIDGE slot (from POWER
    COMPUTING). If I configure the proggy to read the clock at boot time in
    the NEODESK folder, I find that the clock is about 10 seconds slow (I
    have the clock showing at the top right-hand corner). If I then use the
    proggy that enables me to set the clock, the time the GEM window
    displays is correct. What I did was create an AUTO folder and move the
    read clock proggy into there. It now appears to display the correct
    time after a boot.
    
    I have just remebered another issue. If I view a file with NEODESK the
    clock disply in the top right-hand corner (and the "C" to indicate
    CAPSLOCK), interfere with the displayed text.
    
    Neither of the two issues above are earth shattering; so far I'm very
    impressed.
    
    Norman

    I got a question about NEODESK's clock.  I've set the clock on my ICD
    host adapter, but NEODESK doesn't seem to read the ICD.  Any ideas?
    
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Joe

You need one of the ICD clock programs in your auto folder.

    TIMESET.PRG will read the ICD time and use it to set all three Atari
    clocks, then remove itself from memory.
    
    ICDTIME.PRG will read the ICD time, set the Atari clocks, and then
    remain in memory. If you change the system time, it will update the ICD
    time.
    
    These programs are on the disk that came with your ICD controller, or
    you can get them from GENIE or COMPUSERVE.
    
    Gil

    thanks
    
    I'll give those a shot.
    
    J

    First off thanks for the clock info.
    
    I have a new question.  I call_neodesk at the last Navaus meeting and
    it says I need version 3.02.  Okay, there is a file at terminator
    called patch302.lzh.  I downloaded this puppy and de-lzhed it.  I then
    ran it on my NEODESK backup.  It ran fine with no errors.  But whenever
    I try to load it I get errors ranging from NEOLOAD program doesn't
    match to 2 to 4 bombs.  I am really stumped on this one.  I would like
    to avoid sending the disk back to Gribnif and having them update it,
    can anybody out there help?
    
    Thanks in advance
    
    Joe

    I'm pretty sure that I've done that with no problems. Did you replace
    both copies of the old Neoload program (both as I seem to recall that
    it suggests that you have it in the /Auto folder twice) with one from
    the patched disk?
      Double check the read.me or whatever help file and then check that
    you've not got any of the earlier files hanging around are the only
    things I can suggest.

    Can someboby shed some light on the following:
    
    I have NEODESK version 3.02, 4MB ATARI STe and an external floppy
    drive. Recently I have been playing around with the CLI bundled in with
    NEODESK. I produced a batch file to copy other files to a RAMDISK - no
    problem. The next step, as per the manual was to create another batch
    file that is placed in the NEODESK folder (executes automatically on
    boot). This second batch file calls the batch file on any disk I place
    in drive B and copies the named files to RAMDISK. Seems to work OK,
    however, when we return to NEODESK, although I have mouse pointer
    movement, clicking on anything on the screen (ICONS, files etc) does
    not select them. I found by accident that if I call the CONTROL PANEL
    accesory and play around with the mouse click delay, everything retuns
    to normal. Sometimes I need to use the CONTROL PANEL twice to return to
    normal.
    
    Norman

Anyone have the patches to bring NEOdesk V3.03 up to V3.04? I found patches to
go to .02 and to .03 in the Umich archives. I've seen references to V3.04 but
I can't find the patch for it. Is .04 the highest patch for NEOdesk V3?

I've run into a few problems (I just started running NEOdesk V3, I was
using V2.05).

When I try to run the NeoCLI accessory, I get the error "Are you running
NEOdesk 2.05 or newer?"! It worked fine with V2.05. Do I need a newer version
of NeoCLI to work with V3.03 of NEOdesk?

NEOdesk V3.03 will not load using HeadStart. Headstart always worked with
V2.05. Yeah, the Startgem program supplied with NEOdesk works, but it doesn't
have the feature of selecting between different programs to start up. Anyone
know why Headstart doesn't work, or better yet, if you got it to work, what
did you do?

The printer queue seems to have problems if you try to use the printer queue
accessory and drag files to the printer Icon. If you drag files to the icon
then the accessory won't run and if you use the accessory to print files then
files dragged to the icon don't print. Anyone else have this problem.

Since NEOdesk V4 is now out, I assume that if I call Gribnif, their answer to
the problems will just be "Buy V4!", which I don't want to do just yet.

Thanks for any help.

	Ray

    Ray, I use to run Neodesk V3.02 then V3.03 and the CLI - it appeared to
    work OK. I now use MagiC, EASE, KOBOLD. If I get the opportunity, I
    will attempt to fire up NeoDesk again; I can also look in my CLI manual
    to see if it offers any error/solution. I vaguely remember the
    requirement for running NeoDesk V2.05 minimum. I have never used
    Headstart, so I cannot comment.
    
    Norman.