Conference napalm::guitar

    
    Fernandes along with ESP got busted by U.S. Customs a few years
    back when they were imorting replicas of not only Fenders, but Gibson,
    B.C. Rich (!!) and Alembic (!!!!) instruments.
    
    They since have redesigned the headstock on their Strats to avoid
    litigation.  
    
    I have seen the "Vintage 57" models at Mr. C's in Marlboro for less
    than $320 in the past, don't know if that was what you saw.
    
    

        FWIW, I  just bought a real Strat with Kahler and hard flight
        case (Fender) for  $400  at  Herbert's    on   Elm  St.    in
        Manchester,  N.H.    The  posted  price  was  $475,  but  for
        cash.....
        
        Andy

    
    
        I have had a Fernandes Strat for 6 months and I love it.  I
        originally intended to buy a Fender Strat but when I could not
        get the color I wanted (blue) I tried out the Fernandes and
        was very satisfied with the way it sounded compared to the 
        Fender. The only draw back is with the tremolo, the same as
        the 57 Strat but I fixed that by putting on locking sperzel
        machine heads(to keep it from going out of tune as often)
        and by taking off 2 of the 5 springs in the tremolo.
    
        I also think you can buy one for well under $300.00.
    
        Dave

    I've been very impressed with the Fernandes Strat.   Fernandes strats
    are very popular among some of the top studio guitar players I'm
    familiar with.
    
    I was all ready to get a Fernandes Strat at one point, and then
    another (non-strat) guitar became available that I wanted more, but 
    I the opinion I came to hold was that the Fernandes strats were noticeably
    better (in playability and sound) than what Fender currently offers.

    	db

        If it  looks  like  a Strat, feels like a Strat, plays like a
        Strat and sounds like a Strat...... :^)
        
        Andy
        

    
    I have looked at the Fernandes line of vintage strats. I liked what
    I saw and played. I considered (and still do) buying one as a second
    guitar. Usually I like to only own one instrument and become familiar
    with it, but I have considered the Fernandes.
    
    I would like to mention one thing though in defense of 'Fender'ites.
    Yes, I know that just because it says Fender doesn't mean it's good.
    I believe this to be true, but, there is a lot of nostalgia with the
    name, Buddy Holly, Elvis Presley (Jordanaires), Beach Boys,  Steve
    Howe, Jeff Beck, Jimi Hendrix, David Gilmour, Eric Clapton, Ritchie
    Blackmore, etc. etc. etc. etc. Years of rock and roll history were
    made with Fender. When I think of rock 'n' roll history and guitars,
    I don't think of Fernandes, Kramer, Hamer, Kay or whatever, I think
    Fender. That doesn't the other manufacturers make junk, they don't.
    All it means is, Fender means history, to ME. Sometimes though, maybe 
    sentimentality clouds my/our opinions of what makes a good guitar. We
    tend to blow off about "Well if it isn't a Fender then..." .I know 
    that this is no excuse, but I do get tired of the phrase "Just because 
    it says Fender, it doesn't make it a good guitar". I can always reply 
    with "Just because it says Fender doesn't make it bad either". I
    have managed to find a well made guitar which I personally like and on 
    the headstock it just happened to say "Fender". 
    
    Defense rests,
    
    Tony

    Re: .6                     
    
    I agree with you about knocking a guitar on name alone.
    
    What I find curious is that demand for Strats is so great that everyone
    makes Strat copies these days!  I'm not just talking Hondo and Aria
    Pro II...how about Fernandes, ESP, Peavey (the Falcon), Guild, etc.
    These are not hot-rodded instruments with humbuckers, miro-toggles,
    etc. either, they have the three knobs, the angled jack, the pickguard,
    5-way switch, the whole trip.
    
    Twenty years ago, you had the choice of a number of different guitars,
    but today it seems the Strat and to a lesser extent, the Les Paul
    have driven every other guitar off the market.  And in basses, the
    Fender Precision is the model for most of today's basses.
    
    Sure, in the elevated price ranges you have Paul Reed Smith, B.C.
    Rich, Alembic, Steinberger, etc. but at the below $700 level, it
    seems that everything is a variation on a Strat.
    
    And what's really funny is that Fender, making the single most popular
    guitar in the world ended up practically bankrupt a few years back
    and is just now starting to get itself together again.
                   
    Am I the only noter who finds this a little bit absurd????   :-)

    Talking about Ferder almost going out. I first heard of Fender in
    the 60's. And for a long time I was not much into music and/or musical
    instruments. I was under the impression  Fender went out of business
    some time in the 70's. I got back into playing electric guitar about
    two years ago, and was a little surprise to find out that Fender
    was still around.
    
    I am one of those who think that if it does not say Fender and it does
    not date pre-69 (not pre-cbs) is not a Fender. Why? I really do
    not know, but I do like my 65 and 67 Fenders!
    

    re: .6

>   Defense rests.

    No need to be defensive.  I understand sentimentality about guitars
    as well as anyone.  In fact, just last night I picked up my Steve
    Morse model guitar, which I had ordered sight unseen and paid an
    incredible sum of money for.  Obviously, this is not the way to
    buy an instrument (I'm fully cognizant of this). I wanted one.  
    That's all that matters.
    
    I am not one who says "Just because it says Fender doesn't mean
    it's bad".  (I don't say it, but I have to confess I'm inclined
    to think it.)   
    
    What I reacted to was the statement "For $75 more you can get a
    'real' Strat", as if that meant you'd be getting a better guitar.

    I still feel that you can get a better guitar for less money if
    you're willing to sacrifice having the name.  I probably would've
    been better off getting a Paul Reed Smith guitar for the kind of
    money I spent on the Morse guitar, but.... *I* wanted the Morse
    guitar.

    	db

        RE: -1 etc.

        Ah, the subtleties of the printed word!! :^)
        
  >   What I reacted to was the statement "For $75 more you can get a
  >  'real' Strat", as if that meant you'd be getting a better guitar
        
        And I read the opening note as expressing a wish for a Fender
        Strat, but an unwillingness to pay the higher price that they
        command,(probably wrongly!) In  the spirit of sharing info, I
        offered the fact that you can talk Herbert's into a good deal
        on a Strat, if you  wanted  a  'real', ie.  Fender Strat.  No
        intent to say it's a better  (or worse) guitar than any other
        for the price - it suits me and I'm happy with it.
        
        Andy

    re: .10
    
    Andy, regardless of what you meant, the connotation in your note
    was unusually strong in my opinion.  You could have said "You can
    get a Fender for only $75 more" but instead the word "Fender" is only
    mentioned once, and that is in reference to the guitar case.
    
    The word "real" (which you continue to use) has very definite
    connotations of being better.  Regardless of what I meant, I'm sure
    you wouldn't be happy if I told you "You aren't a REAL guitar player."
    
    I realize this may seem like picking nits, but in the context of
    offering advice, I think it's very important to avoid accidentally
    giving the impression that not getting a Fender implies a compromise.

         In the friendliest way, I'd disagree with you Dave (and keep
        in mind that we're talking cross-culturally here! :^).
        
        To  me  there   is  only  *ONE*  Stratocaster,  a  registered
        trademark/copyrighted name, and that  belongs  to Fender, ie.
        there is only one Fender  Stratocaster,  hence  there is only
        one REAL Strat - any others  by  definition are copies of the
        design  and hence are not real Strats.   I  accept  that  the
        quality of the copies may well be vastly better than Fender's
        own, but I'll defend my usage of the term 'real Strat' in the
        context  of  the above - a Strat made by Fender who  own  the
        name.
        
        Another  rathole  could be to discuss the plethora of good to
        indifferent copies of the design, hmm??
        
        Andy.
        

    My My how we get off the subject....
    
    Fernadies.  Good axe.  Reasonable price.  
    Tokia.      excellent as well.  More expensive.  
    
    Both these companies also make real nice telecaster copies.
    
    Personally I felt the Tokia was a better piece.  Played and
    sounded very stratish.
    
 	... Opps I'm quoting again.
<    
<            To  me  there   is  only  *ONE*  Stratocaster,  a  registered
<        trademark/copyrighted name, and that  belongs  to Fender, ie.
<        there is only one Fender  Stratocaster,  hence  there is only
<        one REAL Strat - any others  by  definition are copies of the
<        design  and hence are not real Strats.  
    
        Now guys, lets be realistic.  The pre CBS days are gone.  Forever.
    (Yes, pains my heart to.)  Had a pre CBS strat.  Sold it for
    peanuts. Kick myself in the ass for the last 10 years now.  Especially
    when I saw those prices rise and rise and rise...
    
    Truth of the matter:  Fender is now a jap subsid.  Leo aint involved.
    Hasn't been for a long time.  Anything after Leo Fender sold to
    CBS is a copy to my mind.  And now, Even Fenders are made in Japan.
    
    Now ask your self..  What the hells the difference ?  IT says 
    FENDER on the headstock ?  So what !  Buy a fender neck and put
    in on your fernadies.  So much for originallity.
    
    FENDER, FERNADIES, TOKIA, etc..  If it feels good, sounds good,
    and don't take all your money, Buy It.  How many you boys priced
    a 20 year old strat these days ? 

        RE: -1
        
        Good thinking - hey Dave, let's agree to differ and let it go
        at that, I  didn't  intend  to  dig us a rathole in the first
        place!! :*)
        
        Cheers,
        
        Andy
        
        PS - have a great holiday weekend.
        

    I agree to differ.  But I don't see any reason why differing opinions
    can't be aired.  I never participate in hostile notes arguments.
    That's NOT what we have here.
    
    .13 expressed it well.  What constitues a "real" strat.  I don't
    accept that IF Fender produces a guitar and calls it a strat that
    that makes it a "real" strat, regardless of other considerations
    like quality.
    
    To be honest, I really feel that the company that bought Fender
    is making money off the name by taking advantage of Fender loyalists
    and other folks who buy for the name.  I find this very upsetting
    and that is why I am so vocal about it.  
    
    It's a completely different company than what you and I think of 
    as "Fender".

    In my opinion, they are making inferior guitars by FENDER
    STANDARDS, and many of the so-called "copies" are much better guitars
    and yet the so-called "Fenders" are more expensive.

    If you are happy with your guitar, that's all that matters.  Many
    people think Carvin guitars are junky, and yet I really think my
    Carvin is borderline exceptional.
    
	db

<        To be honest, I really feel that the company that bought Fender
<       is making money off the name by taking advantage of Fender loyalists

    
    	Most defintely !  
    
    	For this reason alone, I found that picking up a Tokia 56 reissue
    was the smartest buy I made in a long time.
    
    I had an old strat ,and then a CBS strat.  The old strat was a nice
    peice.  The newer one I had, fought me all the while I had it. They had
    (CBS Fender) had changed the neck to a Micro Tilt neck with three bolts
    instead of four.  Bad move.  Any quick jerk in the wrong direction and
    the neck would move, the guitar would be helplessly out of tune. 
    If you tightend the neck too much, you mess up the screw holes,
    and then you were in trouble.  plus they were a bear to intonate.
    The bridge was very cheap and easy to strip and screw up.  That
    axe was a bad dream, and it had FENDER written all over it.    
    
    	Also, the tuning heads wore out very quick.  I didn't have these
    problems with my pre cbs strat.  Thats the one I wished I kept.
    
    	I wouldn't consider  HONDO Strat, or something in that caliber,
    a treu Strat copy.  But for learner, beginner guitars, their just about
    the best thing going.  For the guitar player who's looking for a
    quailty guitar with a good single coil, (Strat, Tele) sound, then
    you've got to take a real good look at fernadies and tokai.
    
    Has anyone ever seen the Tokia Les Paul and 335 ?  They are not allowed
    in the states due to patent rights and import laws because they come so
    close to feel sound and looks of the real things that U.S. trade
    comissions wont let them in to the country.  Infact, from about 8 feet
    away, the les paul head stock, which reads LOVE ROCK looks exactly like
    LES PAUL. The writing and ivory inlay is identicle.  You have to look
    twice to notice it's not a gibson.
    
    
    If you're looking for a good Strat, look at a Tokia Fernadies, and ESP
    before you buy a Jap Fender.  Save you money, and you'll probably get a
    better instrument. 
   

    "LOVE ROCK" on the headstock?  Geez anything to make money these
    days .... if the kiddies buy it they'll produce it.  Glad it sounds
    good - got to in order to get around the blundering marketing.
    
    Joel
   

    Might sound like a kiddie ploy, but these guitars are for real.
    
    I just don't think the marketing sciences in Japan are up to what 
    the rest of the world is doing.
    
    The cute thing is Love Rock looks just like the way Gibson writes Les
    Paul.  Rumor has it that when word of these axes hit the U.S. Patent
    office theh had all the head stocks cut off and sent em back to Tokyo,
    (east side)   Guess the U.S. Patents officers didn't think it was quite
    so cute. 

    
    The late Jimmy Nolen, the guitarist for James Brown, the man who
    virtually invented chicken-scratch soul guitar, for many years 
    played a Japanese Strat copy with on-board fuzz, phaser, etc.
    
    The name on the headstock, in the style of the Fender decals:
    
    		"Fresher Straighter"
    
    It even had the "Custom Body" decal.
    
    
    

    re: micro-tilt necks
    
    Some history. The micro-tilt was designed by Leo Fender when he
    worked for CBS Fender as a consultant in the early 70's, so I guess
    the micro-tilt is ok now right?
    
    A problem to be sure....since I bashed (during performances) my strat
    this became a major problem after a while....but it can be made better
    than the 4 bolt neck by simply shimming both sides of the neck between
    the neck and body...mine's so tight that I had to use a mallet to seat
    the neck..believe me it doesn't move anymore. I also refuse to allow
    anyone who services my guitar to remove the neck...if they can't work
    around that they don't get the work....but to be honest I do 99% of my
    own work. Anyone who wants more detail on how I have done this to
    several guitars with great success may mail me for details. 
    
    My strat is now 14 years old...anybody want it? $1,000,000.00,
    non-negotiable.
    
    BTW it's a "real" Fender but post CBS, big deal they made good ones
    too...
    
    If it plays right and sounds right buy it...one of the best new
    strats I've played in a few years was a first year issue Squire
    strat...
    
    Also it's funny to watch people slam Fender for japanese manufacture
    and then recommend Tokai, Fernandez and other foreign made clones.
    ....hmmm double standard? This is not a slam of the clones for anything
    other than not being REAL STRATS by definition.
                                           
    dave

    <Also it's funny to watch people slam Fender for japanese manufacture
    <and then recommend Tokai, Fernandez and other foreign made clones.

    I'm not slamming the quality as much as I'm salmming what the
    general public agrees that the name Fender Implies.  Also, when
    the some say that the only way you can have a strat sound is
    to buy a fender.  My point is it's not true anymore.  (unless the
    instrument is vintage (20 or  so years old.  My opinion and alot
    of others too.)
    
    <Some history. The micro-tilt was designed by Leo Fender when he
    <worked for CBS Fender as a consultant in the early 70's, so I guess
    <the micro-tilt is ok now right?

    I don't care who thought of the idea.  it's a lousy one.      
    Nice option, having to SLAM metal shims into a guitar body.  I like
    that.  If the bridge gets loose, can I drive a nail through it to
    tighten it up ?  Yeah, Leo screwed up.  Noones perfect.

    
    Re: Micro tilts
    
    I know that Fender (and most everyone) has returned to four bolt
    necks, but how many have retained micro-tilt?
    
    I have two Peaveys with four bolt necks *and* tilt adjustment
    as well as two ancient Danelectros which *also* have tilt adjustment.
    
    (Actually, Danelectro pioneered double truss rods, neck tilt and
    full shielding but never got patents because they thought the ideas
    were too obvious!!!!!!!)
    
    The tilt adjust part of the three bolt necks is a great idea.  The
    three bolts maybe somewhat less.  Let's not throw the baby out with
    the bath water.  Remember without tilt adjusts, you may *still*
    need to shim the neck.
    
    

>    Also it's funny to watch people slam Fender for japanese manufacture
>    and then recommend Tokai, Fernandez and other foreign made clones.
    
    No one has slammed Fender for being of japanese manufacture, but
    I'm glad you're amused.

    	db

    re: shims 
    
    not metal, not slammed.
    
    I used old guitar picks, the ones I f***ed up zizzing my strings.
    I seated the neck (shims were rubber cemented into place) with a
    mallet, gently. It doesn't move, not with all my strenght. That's
    how I test them. I've done this to a doen or so guitars and neer
    had a complaint....actually not true, one guy brought his back to
    have it done again after Wurlitzer's repairman removed the shims.
    He complained plenty, about Wurlitzers.
    
    The micro tilt was a good idea, but not well tested. If you've ever
    tried to adjust the tilt on a non mico tilt neck (yes it has to
    be done sometimes) by removing the neck, putting in a shim, putting
    on all the strings, taking off all the strings, removing the neck,
    changing the shims, putting the neck back on, putting on all the
    strings......the tilt is a nice innovation. Of course if you always
    pay some other fool to do this for you, you'll never know how nice
    it really is.
    
    Your four bolt would move if I played it. I have to shim 4-bolt
    necks too. Any bolt on neck will move. I shim them tight so they
    can't move. Ever. So I can power chord, power bend, chord bend etc.
    without losing tuning.
    
    And yes I am amused, I've heard people say that Fender is shit now.
    At the same time I've heard people complain they are made in Japan
    and somehow that's not right ("Not a real Fender!"). I've heard
    some of these same people recommend tokai or Fernandez as an
    alternative. 
    
    What I didn't say was where I heard this. Some of it was here. not
    all.
    
    dave

    
    For related info see 241.13
                
    

    	I have tried both the more recent Fenders as well as a number
    of Fernandes, try an ESP! If you shop around, you may be able to
    find them at a price just a hair above the price of a Fernandes.
    
    One cannot buy by brand alone!
    
    Guten Tag,
    Don
    

    	I certainly don't want to be the one to start this argument
    up again, but I would like an opinion on a related question.  I
    was planning to purchase a strat (or copy) in the near future. 
    Someone I know has suggested that if I don't plan on keeping this
    guitar forever, it might be better to go with a Fender because of
    resale value.  This is not, believe me NOT my primary consideration
    when buying a guitar, but I was curious if anyone had any "real"
    data (i.e. somewhat quantifiable) as to how the various strat copy
    models held their value versus a Fender Strat.  I'd like to be as
    fully informed as possible when making this decision.
    			Thanks, Dave
    
    P.S.  Please don't get me into the "which is better" argument.

    >RE: 283.27
    
    		Hello Dave!
    
    First I'like to introduce myself.
    I'm a guitar player living in Germany nearby Munich.
    My guitar is a 
    
    		Gibson Les Paul Custom with three pickups
    		(made in the year 1970)
    
    		!!Oh what a great tool!! Isn't it?? :-) !!
    
    Now, I also was planning to buy a 'great' Strat, but I'm very
    confused about the good copies.
    One music shop here in Germany makes me, I think, a good offer.
    
    	o Fender Vintage Strat 1953   2200.- DM (ca. $1250.-)
    
    This is *unfortunately* a copie, but made by Fender USA.
    Now my question:
    
    	What is the best Strat copie(not made by Fender itself)?
    
    Thanks
    
    		Wolfgang
    

    Tag, Wolfgang!
    
    Check out ESP! They are excellent guitars and probably the best
    fender imitation.
    
    viel Gluck!
    - wjb

    re: 283.29
    
    Hello ??? (sorry don't know your first name :-) )
    
    Thank you for your information and for your "German", 'cause
    my English ("American??") is very bad :-( .
    
    What type of ESP do you mean?
    
    Tschuess
    
    		Wolfgang
    
    P.S. Hope you tell me your first name, so conversation is a little
         more private! :-)5

    re .30
    
    Guten tag,
    
    Mein name ist William.
    
    - wjb

    RE.: .31
    
    	Hello William! (now it's nice, isn't it? :-) )
    
    Once more my question:
    
    Is there a special type of ESP's that I have to check out.
    I hope you can answer my question.
    
    Have a nice time
    
    			Wolfgang

    Aha, found it (knew I'd seen this discussion somewhere)!
    
    I happened to stumble across some Tokai copies this past weekend
    -- copies of both Strat and Tele.  I don't recall ever trying Fernandes
    or ESP, but I was *real* impressed with Tokai.
    
    I should add that I've really enjoyed reading this discussion, as
    I tend to be a bit of a purist.  There's something about a vintage
    "original" that really appeals to me -- hence, my interest in antiques
    and other types of collectibles.  (Notice how I'm trying to avoid the 
    term "real" here!!)
    
    BUT, I have to admit that purism is not always practical (if ever). And
    if I were in the market for a Strat or Tele right now, I would no doubt
    grab one of these Tokais.  I might anyway.  You can't go wrong,
    especially for the price.  Hampshire Music in Nashua, NH, has them
    listed at $300; but they're selling them at 40% off that.  This price
    does not include the case, but they said they'd offer a good price on
    that as well. 
    
    I didn't see any prices listed in previous replies to this topic,
    so I'm curious as to how this stacks up against other prices, either
    of Tokai or other copies such as ESP.  My curiosity is also up for
    a comparison to ESP, so I'd like to know who carries it.
    
    By the way, Hampshire also has the Guild Telecaster copy.  It's
    real nice, but a lot more expensive.  For the money differential,
    I'd have to opt for the Tokai.
    
    steve
    

    I looked at the Tokai and was all set to buy except I couldn't
    find one without some form of workmanship defect.
    
    I did buy a Fender Squire strat and am pleased. I'm not that familiar
    with strat history, but the Squire seems to be a hybrid between
    old and new. The neck feels vintage, the tuners are Fender/Schaller,
    and the bridge is old style. To be honest, the quality seems superior
    to the American Standard Strat. 
    
    Best of all, the price was $239. Case costs $80. Check one out,
    you may be surprised.
    
    Dan

    I'd like to look at the Squire Strat , where can I take a look at
    them? I live in central Mass. I currently own a 67 Tele, but I'd
    like a new guitar. By the way I bought the Tele in 70 an have had
    it ever since. 
    
    Thanks 
    Ray

    re: Squire Strats:
    
    try 
    
    1. Mac Duff's - right next to Spags
    2. Kurlan's - on Mountain Ave. in Worcester
    
    -Dave

    Thanks , I work in Shrewsbury so thats close enough.
    
    Ray