Conference napalm::guitar

Best luck we've had..

Ibanez (dunno the model) Bass..
Straight into a Fostex 8 track.
A little bit of compression..

       Recording bass can either be good or really bad. The problem I have
    had, is that the bass gets lost in the mix. I found that if you add a 
    little compression to the bass, you can get an apparent loudness out 
    of it. I used to have to boost the bass up on the 4-track for the mix-
    down at the expense of being to loud where you don't want it to be...
    Just below making your speakers fart. *8^)
       You should be able to record any bass on 4-track, providing that
    it has enough gain. If you are boosting your 4-track gain too high,
    you may need to raise your pickups - without distorting on the mix.
       You don't need to have built in preamp in the bass - but it helps
    sometimes when it comes to tone. It helps mostly if you don't have 
    enough tone control on the 4-track.
       If you are a very light picker, this would attribute to low volumes
    also.
    
    
    /John

    I hate to plug this here... But I have too.. :)
    
    The last demo we did on my machine, we ran the bass thru the "Solid
    State" voice of my Mp1 (direct).  The thing worked GREAT !  Best bass 
    tone I've ever gotten on tape.
    
    jc 

    I used a passive Ibanez on a Tascam with very average results but when
    I switched to my active Hohner the sound was faultless.I needed very
    little adjustments and the qaulity,plugging straight in,was amazing.
    Our recording,done six months ago,is superior to any tapes,cd's I
    have,you can hear every little detail in the sound of the bass with 
    an absolutle minimum of hiss ect. - I was amazed by the quality.
    This was done on a 4-track with only guitar,drum machine,bass and
    vocals on.
    I did have a lot of bother when it came to using delay,flanging and
    chorus but none with compression or gain.
    
    
    						stuart.

>    The last demo we did on my machine, we ran the bass thru the "Solid
>    State" voice of my Mp1 (direct).  The thing worked GREAT !  Best bass 
>    tone I've ever gotten on tape.
    
    Did you add compression (od2) to the SS voice on the Mp-1?  I'd think
    that would work great!
    
    Greg (Mp1-less)

Active or passive electronics?

-T

>Active or passive electronics?
    
    If you're talking to Coop, I think the answer is passive.  The bass in
    question was a Peavey (something-or-other).  I'm pretty sure it's one
    of their lower priced models too.
    
    Greg

You're going to laugh, but the absolute best rock bass sound I ever got on tape
went from an old Ibenez el cheapo bass (passive) --> Mesa Boogie MK III head
(clean channel) -> direct-out --> mixer input.  And I didn't need a compressor
because I was using a boogie :)...

I've gotten good results going direct with some compression too.

steve

>I'd like to know what "y'all" are doing to get a
>good recorded bass sound on tape? 
>
>Stuff like:
>
>        - types of basses being recorded 

home grown body with Gibson EB-0 and Rickenbacker pickups; they balance each
other out quite nicely.

>        - Active or passive electronics

passive

>        - Signal chain/FX

bass through Peavey TNT-100

>        - Recorder type

Sony two track reel-to-reel

>        - Etc.

Nothing on my end. The set up was three or four other people singing and
playing into two mikes. We spent some time getting things arranged so the
balance was good, then just played and recorded. For such a primitive set up,
the sound was amazingly good. It helps to remind me that the performance should
be more important than the recording!

Tim

P.S. I was going to add IMHO to that last sentence, but I don't think it is
warranted. I'm tired of hearing perfectly recorded, boring music.

    I've mentioned this to Tom before, but for others who are interested:
    
    Any bass ---> *limiter* ---> bass rolloff EQ at about 60-100 Hz --->
    
    mixer ---> tape
    
    I've used this in both home and pro studios, using Peavey, Silvertone
    (both passive), Fender and B.C. Rich (both active) instruments.
    
    I prefer the limiter as it compresses peaks only.  I've used the dbx
    163 with *excellent* results, for dirt cheap $$ find an old 70s vintage
    stereo cassette deck with a built-in limiter, that's what I use at
    home.  Experiments with the Boss CS-2 compressor stomp box were
    discouraging, loss of high end, hiss build-up.
    
    The reason for the EQ is that few systems can reproduce bass below
    100-150 Hz anyway (certainly not a boom box, for example), so I trim it
    out to keep the bottom end free of mud.  
    
    If finger noise becomes a problem, cut the EQ at 800-1000 Hz.  If
    excessive hiss is a problem, cut above 4 KHz.
    
    
    							Brian

RE: Greg

Oh yeah, lots of compression.  The ADA is loaded with it !!
I guess thats why it worked so well.

jc (Who bets a Rockman would work well too...)

    
    	now that i'm recording again, i'd go with what Brian says. I
    use an el cheapo-cheapo nameless bass directly into the mixer on
    my tascam 424, but i use the EQ to cut out the real low end so i
    do not have any mud left over. What I thought i really needed was
    a compressor but the limiter sounds right and i'm gonna go check
    out my old rat shack cassette deck tonight.
    
    	I find I need the limiter more since i've been playing upright
    bass along with electric. I tend to put too much muscle on the A and
    E string when jumping from one to another.
    
    
    		bob
    

    
    Hellllllpppppppp!!
    
    I'm at the end of my rope with this stuff!!! :-(
    
    Some background:
    
    I'm using a P-bass with GHS Boomers and when play basically any note
    on the E or A, it sounds muddy and it has a lot of really junky
    overtones in it. No amount of EQ solves the problem. 
    
    Anybody know what this is? Anybody else ever hear this? 
    
    To isolate this I need the help of some kind bassist.. (uh oh! :-))
    
    What I'm looking for is someone that would be willing to come up
    to my place with their bass to plug into my gear for comparision 
    purposes. I'll supply the beer... ;-)
    
    If you think you can help me out, let me know...
    
    -Tom

    Tom,
    
       I'll start with "20-Questions"...
    
      When have you changed your strings last? I've found that they can 
    go dead pretty darn quick.
    
      What are you using for a recorder?  What does it have for tone
    controls?
    
      What kind of tapes are you using in your recorder? Is the Yuck-Tone
    you're getting even before you are recording?
    
      Do you have, or are you using DBX or Dolby on your recordings?
    
      How does your bass sound through your amp? Do you have the sound you
    want through that?
    
      Is your bass wired right? ie; are your P-U's wired "In-Phase?
    
    /John

    -Tom,
    
    I have to ask the same question as .14, When was the last time you
    changed your strings?  I have always noticed that the low E string
    tends to go dead much faster than the other 3.  
    I notice that dynamics as well as sustain decrease beyond belief.
    
    I wonder if it has something to do with the size of the windings 
    on the string?
    
    chUck

re: .14

 The strings I'm using are reasonably new, maybe a month old. In any
case, it doesn't sound dead to me. The deck is a tascam 424, with a 
2 band hi/lo eq per track. I use either TDK or Maxell chrome tapes.
BTW, the deck bas DBX, not dolby.

As far as the amp sounds, I guess it's ok, but I don't do that much anymore.
I've been reasonably pleased with the amp sound (I guess!).

Dunno about the pickups. 

FWIW,

The signal path is:

PV MKVIII head (for EQ only, 9 band)
to 
DBX 163X compressor
to
Deck

The EQ is set flat except for about a 5-10db boost at 120Hz and 660hz.

The EQ on the deck is flat as well. 

I've tried lots of combinations of EQ and component ordering, without
any success.

    Tom,
    
    Have you tried recording withOUT the compressor?
    
    Maybe the compressor is taking a lot of the overtones that are
    being generated from the E + A strings, (due to resonance, strings,
    etc.) and causing the muddy tone.
    
    When I record, I use a compressor VERY sparingly (sp?)
    
    chUck

Tom,

Something occurred to me.

Is the process you are using to critique the bass sound to record a bass
track and then listen to it in isolation (by itself), rather than in
context (with the other parts)?

If that's the case, you may be going thru a lot of concern over this.

My experience has always been that you have to evaluate tracks (both for
their performance and their sound) in the intended context.

My guess is that if I were to take the bass track from, say, the 
factory demo that came with one of my synths and play it for you
with all other tracks muted, you'd almost certainly say (as I did), 
"that doesn't sound anything like a real bass".

And yet in context it sounds killer.

	db

    
    
    Dave,
    	
    	I've listened both to the sound in context as well as out and
    I'm not happy on either count. 
    
    	I won't disagree that the problem may be "expectations" rather
    than the actual sound.
    
    	Geez, this is supposed to be easy.. ;-)
    
    -t

    Tom,
    
       How often have you used your bass (maybe in "hours")? I've had
    those strings go in a day - with heavy playing.
    
       You may also have been squashing your sound with too much
    compression - as mentioned earlier.
    
    /J
    

    Tom:
    
    You may want to try the ole "A/B" test.
    
    If you want to do some comparisons I'd be happy to offer my bass
    guitars to you for a test.  
    
    Give me a call if you're interested.
    
    Dan

    
    
    
    	Tom, I'm reacting to your "this is supposed to be easy" comment.  I
    don't know dink about recording, but I've always heard people who do
    say that recording bass isn't easy..   Lemme ask a dumb question... for
    my own info... if you're happy with your amp sound, why don't you just
    mike it into your tape deck?
    
    Steve (noveau sound and bass dude)

    
    
    re: .-1
    
    	Recording with a mic requires that you have the room to 
    mic a bass amp at a volume loud enough to get a good tone.
    
    	Since I do most of my recording *after* the kids are 
    asleep.... 
    
    	You get the picture..
    
    -T
    

    
    	tom...
    
    	I just got my 424 last month, and then spent a week trying to
    put down bass sounds i could live with. Eventually, i cranked the
    lo-eq 90 degrees to the left, kept the hi-eq at or above 0, and
    kept my levels not too far in the red.
    
    	Even after all that, plus a bounce with drums and synth brass,
    i still keep the lo-eq low on playback.
    
    	However, this was not the case on another track i did - flat levels
    worked fine, and damned if i remember what i did different.
    
    	Keep in mind this is all played on a bass that you might buy at
    K-Mart. I've recorded good bass on strings that were older than my
    kids.  I just think you are experiencing the powers of a better
    machine.
    
    	bob

    If you're getting alot of wierd overtones you might try lowering the
    pickups. All single coils to some extent, get wierd overtones, on
    strats they get worse the higher you go up the neck on the lower
    strings with the low e being awful on many/most strats past the 12th or
    14th fret.
    
    FWIW
    
    dbii

re:  Pickups

Could we *please* continue the issue of pickups somewhere else?

Dave has a valid point about the pickup height, but the general
discussion about pickups belong elsewhere.


-Tom

To continue with the *real* topic at hand.. ;^)

Dan Daddieco was kind enough to bring his basses over
last night for a little A/B and surprisingly his gear (PV w/EMGs)
didn't sound much different than mine. 

His "A" was a little tighter and the overall output was a little 
stronger, but that was just due to the actives.

It sounds better w/o the compressor, but it's hard to get enough
level on the tape w/o it, so there's a catch-22.. ;^(

db has volunteered his studio to check out my bass on someone
elses gear. That should provide the final piece of the puzzle. 

-T

>Could we *please* continue the issue of pickups somewhere else?

    A thousand pardons.

    
    
    
                   Well, *I* happen to think the subject of pickups
          is of the UTMOST relevence to the topic at hand.
    
    
    			Hmmph!!  

re:.-1

Tell me string pull problems and humbucking pickups on
guitars have to do with this? 

There is a note #31 dedicated to pickups. It's perfectly
reasonable to continue this side-discussion on pickups 
there.

Like I said, Dave Bottom's makes a valid point, but the
entire discussion of pickup string pull belongs elsewhere..

   I happen to agree that pickup height is a possibility but then that's
 another note. ;-)

  Chill....

    I recently went through some pain recording my bass. I have a fender
    bullet p-bass with the original and very cheap pickups.
    
    What I ended up doing was this. I ran it through my testerossa clean
    and used hte intellifex to give it a small amount of reverb. I used my
    symetrics to hard limit it rather than compress it to keep within the
    dynamic range of my 688. I boosted both the hi-mids and the treble on
    record and cut them approximately the same amount on mixdown. This was
    to give the dbx some high end to fool with on that channel. I close
    miked it with an AKG D320 vocal mike (about all I have around the
    studio). I used my rivera cab with a 70w celestion. I was probably
    running under 15watts as my family was upstairs asleep, but you never
    know :-)
    
    I had tried going straight into the board bu just couldn't get a warm
    enough sound. This was the best I was able to get, it is far from ideal
    though, but the bass track is not buried in muddiness or clangy bright.
    
    dbii

re: limiting

You're not the first person to mention this. Iwonder if I 
should  dump the compressor and try to find a compressor/limiter?

How's the low strings (E and A) definition?

-T

    re: limiting

    I'd at least borrow a limiter and try it.  I've (my former band)
    have done some very good quality studio stuff w/o any compressor.
    Just a limiter. This was I'm sure due to the engineer's preference.
    I don't have enough experience behind the board to make a judgement on
    the merits of limiting over compressing. But I've heard a lot of badly
    used compressors.

    	Just did some recording last night. I normally use an AMPEG SVT
    head into a Peavey 1508 cab (a 15" and two 8"s) to play through. For
    the recording though I used a Bass Rockman with a little EQ on the
    output. The Rockman does a good job of limiting and adds just enough
    compression to keep it tight and keep the dynamics. The only problem
    with the box is it does not have all the tonal variation that I
    want, hence the EQ to add a little extra top and bottom. I have found
    that the bass direct into the mixer or what have you tends to be very
    peaky and either too thick or too thin as far as eq from the mixer.
    
    
    FJE

    Re: .10
    
    I lied.  I meant dbx 166, not 163.  The 166 is a stereo, full featured
    compressor/limiter/gate, the 163 is the little "over easy" box.
    
    						Brian

One thing I've definitely decided to do is go "active" with
an EMG P bass active pickup. I really liked the sound of
Dan D's Peavy with the EMG, I mean *really*  liked it.


-T

    re: .33
    
    Dave, you said in this note that you added a little reverb, EQ, and
    hard limited the signal.  That all makes sense, but I was wondering
    where you did it.  In the signal chain between the preamp and the power
    amp (ie before the miked speaker) or between the mike and the deck?
    
    Greg

    Also, do any of you have recommendations on limiters to use for this? 
    Would it be better to buy a higher end unit like the Symmetrix or would
    a stomp box like the Boss LM-2 do?
    
    Greg

    Two small things: conventional wisdom is to NEVER add reverb on the
    tape itself.  Add it in the mix.
    
    EQ can be added to the tape, but I would only do it to solve a problem
    with the recorder itself.   It's not considered uncommon, for example,
    to boost the highs a bit going on to the tape because tape tends to
    suppress the highs (especially with CERTAIN noise reduction systems).
    Re: getting a "compressor/limiter" instead of a "compressor".
    
    "Compression" and "Limiting" are really two variations of the same
    effect.
    
    Compression is a reduction in signal strength whenever the signal
    goes above a "threshold".    The amount of compression applied is
    expressed in terms of a "compression ratio":
    
    	A ratio of 4 to 1 means that if the input signal goes 4db above
    	the threshold, it will be trimmed back to 1db.
    
    "Limiting" is just compression with a compression ration of
    infinity-to-1.   It basically means that a ceiling is enforced
    on the input signal: it will not allow it to go above the threshold.
    
    Note that "compressor/limiters" won't do both compression and limiting
    simultaneously (the ones I know anyway).
    
    It's hard to imagine that any problem you're having requiring the
    overall sound will be solved with limiting.

Reverb and eq were done pre-mixer/tape_deck. The limiting was on a channel
insert at the board.

dbii

re: reverb in the mix

That presupposes that I've got 6-8 reverb units that I can set up independantly
at mix down time. For those of us with only 3 or 4, some compromises must be
made. If you hadn't guessed I tend to reverb everything a bit here and there.
I'm an idealist, but an underfunded one...:-)


re: compressors

I think a high end unit is very useful, if you own a multi-track deck you 
really need one to get good results. However, financial considerations have
caused me to buy less than ideal along the way...There are some very nice
comp/limiter boxes for pretty reasonable prices out there.


dbii

    The limiter I use, is as I have mentioned ad nauseum, an old Sony tape
    deck.  It has a prest limiter built in, basically you set the (record)
    levels on the deck, and when you turn on the limiter, it locks
    everything at 0 VU.  This seems to work fine, probably for a number of
    reasons:
    
    	1.  It was built specifically for taping onto cassettes.
    
    	2.  The record level becomes your "threshold" control.
    
    If the stomp box unit is *quiet* enough, go for it.  
    
    Another source of a cheap limiter is the old dbx 119, which was a
    comp/limit box sold for use with stereos back in the 70s.  I see them
    selling used in the want ads in the $50 range.
    
    I also agree with dbii about high end boxes; the dbx 166 I mentioned
    sells for about $350-400, but it has *two* units in one box, so can
    handle two tracks at the same time or work on a stereo mix, will do
    either compression or limiting and has a noise gate built in.  Add all
    that up and compare that to the dbx 163 at $120 and the 166 doesn't
    seem so expensive in the long run.  
    
    It all boils down to whether or not you have the $$; after all we're
    talking about doing home demos on cassettes, not producing the next
    Paula Abdul album.
    
    						Brian

>That presupposes that I've got 6-8 reverb units that I can set up independantly
>at mix down time. For those of us with only 3 or 4, some compromises must be
>made. 
    
    Huh?
    
    You completely lost me.  Why do you need 6-8 reverbs?

'cus I've got essentially 9 tracks (two virtual and 8-1 sync track). I use
reverb on nearly everything, guitars, bass, vocals. I put a slight verb 
on most tracks when I record them, if they don't sound right I do them over. 
Since I have the luxury fo so many tracks I don't bounce tracks down to get 
more room. My midiverbII is dedicated to my hr16 now and the quadraverb is 
used on both record and mixdown. If I recorded everything dry I would not get 
the sound I get and lately it's been pretty good.

If you have 6-8 digital reverbs then you can be elitist and not put any effect
on tape, use poo' folk gotta compromise...

dbii :-)

    Dave,
    
    I get the impression that you aren't using the effects sends on your
    mixer (I know it has them).
    
    There's no reason why you can't apply a single reverb to multiple tracks
    at mixdown time.  You can even apply different levels of reverb
    (wet/dry).

    Yes I do use the effects sends but if I want reverb/chorus/echo on the
    vocals, and I almost always don't verb up the vocals at record time
    other than lightly, so I save my quad for that. So in order to get the
    bass and guitar tracks wetted (so to speak) I do it when I record. The
    HR-16 lives in the virtual tracks, sync'd to midi, so the verb for that
    is always in use. Actually I wish I did have a couple more digital
    multi-effects units. Like that ART DR-X I've been fooling with, nice
    product, but now my funds are going into studio floor space expansion.
    Drum booth etc..
    
    dbii

Hi Dave !

Could you comment on the DR-X a bit more (of course in the appropriate topic),
since it is the base for the ART SGX-2000, which I'm intersted in...

	thanks a lot in advance

		Richard

    re: .48
    
    Dave,
    
    I still don't get why you can't add all those effects at mixdown, but 
    more power to you.

Dave I've only got two reverbs, in practice since one is dedicated to the Hr,
I only have one. I put different/effects reverbs on 6-8 tracks. I'd need 6-8 
'verbs to record dry and add effects at mixdown time.

dbii 

    > Since one is dedicated to the HR
    
    That's why I asked if you used the EFX sends.  Why does it HAVE to be
    dedicated to the HR?
    
    >  I put different/effects reverbs on 6-8 tracks. I'd need 6-8
    > 'verbs to record dry and add effects at mixdown time.
    
    Are you saying you put different kinds of REVERB on each track?
    
    That's quite unconventional so that may be why I didn't understand
    at first.
    
    	db

The one dedicated to the HR is running a gated reverb, pretty useless IMHO
except for snares...

Yeah I do use slightly different reverbs for different tracks, and I also 
almost always use echo on vocals, that I wouldn't want on the drums, bass
guitars etc.

dbii

    I'm going to open this topic up again hopefully by asking what do
    people want when recording?
    
    
    If you want fundamentally the same sound that you get live then why not
    mike up your amp.  If you mix this with a DI'd sound then not only will
    you fatten the bass,  but you're getting ths best of both worlds.
    
    When recording my bass I always use a direct sound,  and then two
    SM58's one on the 15" speaker,  and one on the port hole.  That I then
    mix on to two tracks and Bob is your uncle (as we say over here)
    
    The bass is a Status Series II, but I sometimes record it passive (gets
    a sort of Fenderish tone)  I always have the pick up fader set leaning
    towards the rear just to tighten up the tone,  and always clean those
    strings first.  (Boiled with some detergent for 20 mins).  No
    compression on it (it always makes the note drag,  you can do that
    yourself with a finger pop etc.
    
    
    Just my thoughts
    
    Cheerio
    
    
    Nigel