Conference napalm::guitar

    
    	Yeah...a Conn strobotuner.
    
    	Joe Jas
    

    
    	    	<  Yeah...a Conn strobotuner.


    		If you've got the money, the Conn Tuner is an excellent
    	tuner.  By far, the most popular and acurate tuner and it's
    	widely used.  BUT !!!!  If you don't have a spare three to 
    	four hundred dollars kicking around in a swiss bank account,
    	you can check out, (for under 80 dollars) some hand held units
    	made by SEIKO, (not just watches anymore !) BANANA, BOSS, and
    	DOD.  I have, as a backup for the Conn, a BANANA tuner, and
    	it does a real good job, and is good on batteries.  
    
    		It's by no means a Conn, but then again, it's alot
    	less money.
    
    /ray

    I have a bannana. I got for $25. It works find on a 12 string guitar.
    

    
    	I also have a Banana and think it works great if you plug into
    it but find it quite a pain in the *** when tuning acoustically.
    
    			-Cagey-
    

    I'm another banana owner.  Acceptable but not great.
    
    Check out Korg.  They've introduced more than one new tuner in the
    last couple of years.  One is the same size as a regular phillips
    cassette case.  They also have "automatic" tuners which decide which
    string you're tuning for you.
    

    Thanks for the recommendations so far (anyone else, keep em coming).
    I had in mind something small and inexpensive to do quick tune-ups
    in noisy environments (like at a jam, gig, etc.)  I think the Conn
    is a lot more than I need, or is it?  How good are these little
    tuners like the Banana and Korg?  What do you gain with the Conn?

    /rick

	I've got one of the Korg tuners.  I've had it for a good 5-6
	years now.  It does the job it was designed to well.  It has
	a jack to plug in and electric instrument as well as a built-in
	microphone for acoustic instruments.  It has a dial with 6 
	settings E, A, D, G, B, E which is fine for a guitar tuned 
	standard.  It also works fine for my dobro which I tune GDBGDB,
	but anything else ...forget it.  

	You can probably get one similiar for ~ $25 - 30.

	-gary

	<    How good are these little tuners like the Banana and Korg? 
    	<    What do you gain with the Conn?

    		They are, as stated, acceptable, My opinion, they do
    	a real good job BUT !!!  You said something about NOISY
    	ENVIRONMENTS.  Strike one for BANANA.  Don't handle that too
    	well.  The reason for this is there is a condenser mike for
    	tuning acustics.  Seems that the louder the noise, the more
    	sneaks into that mike, there for making the tuner act
    	strange, even though you've plugged in via a 1/4' phono jack.
    
    		What do you can with the CONN?  It is the Most acurate
    	tuner on the market.  It is also the *Industry Standard* in
    	Tuners.

    		KORG. !!! Yeah ,, thats the other one I was trying to
    	remember.

    
    /ray
    

    
    		If it's in-expensive you wan't you might want to look
    into a Justina tuner. I have one that can be plugged in to your
    axe and put in line to your amp, so you can allways have it handy
    for tuning. Acoustically it's not too bad but seems to loose rescinance
    on the high pitches. I got it for $40 brand new and it even has
    a light, and an ac adapter feature. 
    
    Steve

I paid ~$50 for a Seiko tuner and am not unhappy with it. I have noticed a few
things about it though. The needle stays much more steady if you tune to the
first? harmonic i.e. touch the string near the octave fret. Also, since I tune
through the pick-up only, a piece of tape over the mike does wonders for keeping
out background noise. I suppose I could disconnect the mike, but that's a lot of
trouble. 

pickin'

John F.

    That's odd, my Seiko turns off the mike when you plug into it. I
    like mine ok but I'm just a hack at home so I don't need the 
    accuracy or features that you pro's might need. It works and it
    takes me about ten seconds to tune up. Well worth the investment
    in time alone.
    
    Dave.

    It's been suggested several times in this conference that electronic
    tuning devices are a great aid in tuning up. I have some doubts
    about how good it is to get too dependent on these. I know one of
    the most difficult things for beginners on any instrument is learning
    to tune it, and string instruments are perhaps worse than others
    in this respect. But it seems to me that the process of tuning is
    a fundamental part of developing musical skills. If you start off
    depending on a meter to tell you whether or not you're in tu
    you'll nver train your ears to distinguis intonation at all.

    Furthermore, the meters I have had the occassion to use were not really
    very precise. As far as I'm concerned, tuning a musical instrument is
    an art, and cannot be done properly by a machine. For example, just
    tuning all of the strings on a guitar to be in tune when they are open
    does not necessarily provide the optimum tuning for all positions.
    There is probably no such thing as an instrument which is so perfectly
    set up that this would happen. To tune properly you have to make
    compromises, so that a string might be a little out here, and a little
    there, rather than in tune here and way out there. I don't see how you
    can do this without using your ear, even if you had a very
    sophisticated device that could check the intonation of all of the
    strings at all positions on the neck, and then provide the optimal
    tuning for them all (anybody up for an expert system digital tuner?).

    I realize that there are times when these things can be indispensable.
    Like when you're in a noisy room getting ready to go onstage and
    can't hear yourself for anything. But in general it seems to me
    to be more of a musical handicap than an aid to use these things
    regularly.
    
    Any opinions?
    
    - Ram

    I agree that a beginner student should learn how to tune the guitar
    without an electronic tuner, but in order to tune to A400 you have
    to use either a tuning fork, pitch pipe, piano, or other instrument.
    Once a person learns how to tune a guitar, I believe an electronic
    tuners is the best investment a guitarist can make. It saves on hours
    of frustration trying to get a guitar in tune. By the way, when
    you tune to an electronic tuner you don't tune to an open string,
    you tune to the harmonic struck at the 12th fret. The 12th fret
    is the center point on the string, therfore it does tune the guitar
    to a happy medium point. If you are going to be using certain chord
    positions and they sound out of tune, they will require some fine
    tuning and thus other chord positions may be rendered out of tune.
    It is definately a compromise, but the better intonated a guitar
    is, the less of a problem this tends to be. Gibson and Fenders
    (while they may be overall great guitars) have only average
    intonation integrity, while some of the higher priced guitars do
    have a little bit better intonation. I'm talking guitars you would
    pay 3 or 4 grand for like Alembic, C.F. Martin, etc. I have also
    heard that many of the Japanese made guitars have better intonation
    than most Gibsons and Fenders. I wouldn't doubt this a bit.Intonation
    is especially a problem on stock Telecaster, since the tele has
    only 3 intonation screws, and each one control 2 strings. 
    
    	Another thing that effects intonation is string gauge. I believe
    if you were to use heavey gauge strings, you would find that your
    guitar has better intonation, but who is gonna use medium gauge
    strings on their guitar to play rock and roll. I for one couldn't
    hack playing with heavey gauge strings, especially since I couldn't
    bend them. Light gauge strings may be easy to play, and may allow
    for easy bending, but they are not the ideal gauge for guitar. When
    you use light gauge strings you are making a tradeoff of sound
    quality. Let's face it heavier strings are going to produce a
    stronger louder signal, especially to the pickups, and are also less
    apt to flutter around when struck with a heavy picking technique
    like power chords. When Strats, Teles, Les Pauls etc, were designed
    in the 1950's everyone was using medium gauge strings. This is one
    of the reasons why Fenders tend to sound too thin with stock pickups
    and light gauge strings.               
    
    	Just my usual opinionating.
    
    						Mark Jacques
    

    re: .1
    
    Tuning the twelfth fret harmonic is pretty much equivalent to tuning
    the open string, since it doesn't depend on fret intonation.  But
    you raised a good point.  If you play all over the neck, it might
    be a good idea to tune notes at the fifth and seventh frets - but
    you'd need to fret them, not play harmonics.  But then you'd need
    a third hand.
    
    re: .0
    
    I like tuners for pre-gig tune-ups, but I normally start with a
    tuning fork and do the rest by ear.  Even if I use a tuner, I always
    wind up fine tuning by ear anyway.  Half the time there's a
    non-tunable instrument in the band, so we tune to it.  
    
    If there's no noise interference, I prefer to tune one string to
    a standard and the rest by ear.  They're definitely no substitute
    for a good ear.
    
    Bob

    Re: .1
    
    Is "A400" a typo or have I been tuning sharp all these years?
    
    Last I heard, A got plopped at 440hz....
    
    Edd

    
    So who sez you gotta tune to A 440hz anyway??
    
    I like the sound of tuning one fret sharp or flat...gives new life
    to those open strings.
    
    wjb

    
    	Though *personal* preference is NOT to use one (as .2 said -
    	there's NO substitute for a good 'ear'), it's almost a re-
    	quirement in an amplified (versus just acoustic) band in a
    	barroom situation. What's below, worked for me...
    
    	When I was playing in a band, I'd do my best to tune my 4th
    	(D) string to the tuner (for a ref), then tune the rest of 
    	my acoustic/electric 'by ear' in silent periods - even if it
    	meant doing it on my break.  But if you 'pop' a string and
    	have to change it mid-song, once you've restrung and stretched
    	it, a tuner will allow you to continue, without having to hear
    	it's pitch, being "in" enough to complete the song while the 
    	band is still playing.
	    For all of the band to be 'somewhat' in tune with each 
    	other, it really is needed.  Nothing sounds worse than a band 
    	that's out of tune' with itself.

    							Rich

    I figured this would start a lively discussion, but I didn't know
    we'd get into tuning techniques. When I'm playing alone I usually
    tune the G string first using a G harp which I carry in my case
    as a reference, then tune the other strings against that. I start
    by just rough tuning the open strings by ear, then tune the strings
    against each other by fretting the lower string up to same note
    as the next open string (for example, low E up to 5th fret to A).
    After this I double check by fretting harmonics at the 5th and 7th
    poisitions. Finally, I finger a few chords to insure the sound is
    right. Each instrument usually has particular chords which it has
    trouble keeping in tune, so I check these and adjust accordingly.
    My ES-345 has tuning screws on the bridge, which makes it real easy
    to finger a chord with the left hand while adjusting the tuning
    with the right.
    
    When I'm playing with other people I generally just go along with
    whatever tuning technique they seem to prefer, and I've seen all
    kinds.
    
    I really can't stand to play out of tune. I use medium gauge strings on
    both acoustic and electric, because it just seems to be so hard to keep
    lighter strings in tune. I do bends a lot, and don't have any problem
    doing bends on medium gauge strings. But then I've been playing on
    steel strings for more than 20 years, and the ends of my fingers are
    solid callouses. I like the feel of lighter strings, but they always
    seem to wander all over the place, especially when playing power
    chords. 

    If this discussion on tuning is interesting, maybe we should
    start a note on how to set up guitars for proper intonation.
    
    - Ram

    While there are reasons not to tune to A-440 the reasons for doing
    it are compelling enough for me:
    
    1) Tuning to the same pitch everytime developes your sense of pitch.
    
    2) The neck on my guitar is very sensitive.  If I don't tune it
       to the proper pitch, I get more intonation problems than I
       usually get (one of these days I'm going to get that damn
       thing fixed; it's just that I don't want to be without my
       main guitar for 4 to 5 weeks).
    
    3) Singers with good pitch (the ones you want in your band) often
       get "thrown off" a bit when the band isn't tuned to their concept
       of pitch.
    
    	db

    I'm all for tuners...there is nothing more disgusting than listening
    to someone play a guitar they can't, won't or didn't tune. I will
    walk out of a club where tuning is off rather than listen to it...
    maybe that's why I could never get into punk....
               
    In clubs they are indispensable, I hate listening to bands that
    are too cheap to buy one go poing poing poing while they try to
    get in tune with each other. you are guaranteed that everyone will
    at least start in tune with each other.
    
    For students, it is important to understand the mechanics of tuning
    by hand, if you use harmonics or 5th fret method or whatever..but a
    beginner will have much more time to learn to play if he uses a
    tuner and gets on with playing.
    
    After a while most people get a feel for something at least close
    to perfect pitch...I can hit within a semi-tone of A440 from scratch
    with no tuning aids. An' I got this tin ear...:-) 
    
   dave

    Re .2, you're right I meant A440, not A400.
    
    A lot of people like to start off by tuning their d or g string
    to another source, then tune the rest of the strings to it. I find
    this to be very tedious. First of all, your neck changes depending
    how much tension you place on it. If you tune say your d string,
    and find the rest of the strings are flat, as soon as you crank
    up the low E string, that's gonna place more tension on your neck,
    your neck is gonna bow up, and then the d you just tuned becomes
    flat. It works the same way if you tune one string, and find the
    rest are sharp. As soon as you loosen the low E string, your neck
    is gonna bow back, and the d you just tuned is gonna become sharp.
    I find if you start with the biggest E string, then tune A D G B
    E, in that order, it minimizes this problem, and you can tune quicker.
    This is best accomplished by using a tuner. If you aren't satisfied
    with the way it sounds at that point, you can make fine adjustments
    by ear. 
    
    	I find that simple, obvious guitar maintainence tends to prevent
    tuning problems. This includes frequent string changes, occasional
    intonation checking/adjustments, and fret dressing are on top of
    the list. Another thing that helps (believe it or not) is the use
    of a capo. A lot of guitars have major intonation problems at the
    nut, and therefore in any of the open positions. If you capo up just 
    one fret, and make sure that bar chords are in tune, chances are you 
    will find that your guitar plays pretty well in tune. What I do with
    my acoustic steel string is to capo up 1 fret, and use my electronic
    tuner to tune the open strings. If you remove the capo, the guitar
    will not be tuned to A440 (but Ab). I also find that acoustics sound
    nicer with a capo, than without. If you are the type of picker that
    likes to play in open positions, open chords, the capo will open
    a lot of doors for you. If you are going to use a capo, however,
    make sure you get a good one. I never liked capos until I went out
    and bought a Shubb (sp?) capo. This is all metal with a rubber string
    pad, and an adjustment screw underneath. I'm sure there are other
    good capos available, but there are definately a lot of cheap ones
    that don't work well. I would highly recommend a Shubb capo. They
    cost about $10.oo
    
    Another thing that effects intonation is the type of strings you
    use. For acoustic guitar, I find that I must use a wound G string.
    If I use an unwound G, it sounds crummy, and causes tuning problems.
    I don't know what it is about G strings, but they have always been
    the hardest string to tune, and keep in tune. I think that part
    of the reason is that for a bar chord, the G string provides the
    major third note. The human ear seems to be very sensitive to major
    third notes. In any event if you are using strings with an E string
    less than .012", you have to trade off perfect intonation for ease
    of playing and bending notes, since a guitar was never made to accom-
    idate light gauge strings.
    
    	Does anyone know whether short scale verses long scale necks
    effect intonation. Most carvetop jazz guitars have short scale
    necks, and have to have great intonation to accomidate all the fancy
    jazz chords. This topic could easily merit it's own note, but while
    we are on the subject of intonation, why not...?
    
    
    
    							Mark Jacques
    
    

    re: .9 (G-string as the major third)
    
    The guitar is an 'well-tempered' instrument, so the thirds are already
    a little sharp.  If you make an F-type barre chord up the neck,
    you're in danger of bending that G-string a little, making it just
    a little TOO sharp.  This would also apply to the B-string in the
    Bb-type barre
    
    Plus - If you use an unwound G on a guitar thats compensated for
    a wound G (all flat-top acoustics), then it's automatically out
    of tune up the neck.  If you have adjustable bridge compensation
    for individual strings (most (all?) electrics), then you can allow
    for the unwound G.
    
    Bob
        

    I sometimes use harmonics at the 5th and 7th frets for a quick
    tune up, because it frees my left hand to tune while the strings
    are still sounding.  But, because of equal temperament, it's not
    exactly accurate.  If your frets are true, the 7th fret harmonic 
    will be just slightly sharp from the fretted note.  It's a small
    difference, but by the time you ping-ping across four strings,
    your G and low E *could* be noticeably out.
    
    Bob

    
    I accept electronic tuners as a fact off life these days.  Several
    people I know would never play in tune, otherwise :^)!   In gig
    situations, you really need one, because the noise and din really
    affect your perception. 
    
    I'm old school, though, in learning how to tune by ear.  Most problems
    with guitars seem to be the intonation of the instrument.  I never
    really appreciated that until I got back into fretted axes. 
    
    But, your ear should be good enough to tune up.  Way back, when I was
    an oboist, I got to give the reference pitch to the various orchestras
    (using an A442 fork for *my* reference).  If 60+ people can tune by ear
    and get it reasonably correct, a 4-5 piece rock band should be able to
    do it, too. 

    
    I have to say I love tuners... I change my strings every time I
    play out and I also tune by ear as I change them.. Then bang on
    them for a couple minutes, then plug into the old tuner... And as
    was mentioned playing out it's a must in noisey rooms. I also use
    it on my twelve string at first with capo on 2nd @440, then take
    off the capo and fine tune it by ear..saves alot of time.
    
    
    	I wouldn't give mine up for nothin!!!! As far as beginners
       go all beginners should learn how to tune manually...

    I've never had an electronic tuner, and have always wanted one..
    someday my money will come.  As far as I can see, live noisy situations
    would be the *only reason* to get one.  I've used them in the past
    and have never been satisfied with the resultant tuning.
    
    And speaking of tuning, I'm surprised no one has mentioned frequency
    interference yet... when I'm plugged in, thats pretty much the only
    method I use, at least for coarse tuning.  A third harmonic on the
    low E (fifth fret) matches the second harmonic on the A (seventh
    fret) - add a little distortion and it's just too easy.  Then I
    usually tune to first harmonics, where thirds are in phase (low
    E on 12 and A on 12) - pluck them together.  Then, finally, stage
    3: fine tuning on a chord which has several neck positions - try
    them all.  Of course, these methods are more difficult on an acoustic,
    where interference kills sustain almost immediately.  I usually
    tune to a440 with an A (first harmonic) and work off of that.
    
    Yeah, it's really pretty boring, I'm sure you've all tuned a guitar
    before.  I think David Byrne said it best:
    
    "This is a crime against the state
     This is the meaning of life:
     To tune this electric guitar."
    
    Jon

    As a novice acustic player I sometimes have difficulty in tuning.
    I use a tuning fork, but at times the guitar just sounds "off".
    Sometimes I blame it on humid or dry weather, but it's frustrating
    and probably is the most common reason for not practicing...just
    doesn't sound right.
    
    I think an electronic tuner would help me quickly tune and get on
    with practicing.  I visited Kurlan(?) Music in Worcester to ask
    about electronic tuners.  The tuners seem to lend themselves to
    electric guitars and the salesclerk (seemed a little spaced-out)
    wasn't clear on just how an electronic tuner was used with an acustic
    guitar.
    
    Are some electronic tuners compatable with acustics?  Can you recommend
    any specific models?
    
    Thanks,
    
    George

    
    Most tuners have built-in mikes for use with acoustics.  When you
    plug a cord into the input, the mike is bypassed.
    
    Quartz tuners are dirt cheap these days.  A Banana will run about
    $20 and it works....Low-end Korg models start at around $40, fully
    chromatic (i.e. any note, not just EADGBE) from Korg or Boss start
    at about $75.  Other brands to check are Justina and Seiko. 
    
    I disagree with the comment on recommending beginners not use them...it
    helped me learn how to tune by ear because I finally could hear
    what my bass was *supposed* to sound like when in tune.  Remember,
    frustration is a big factor with novices.                  
    
    

    
    I agree with .-1 .  I guess I still am a beginner even after 10
    years of now&then plucking.  I never had a tuner until recently
    when I got a Korg chromatic(got it for $45 in podunk NY State),
    but I wouldn't give it up now.  I has helped me train my ear, and
    reduced the frustration level of getting my acoustic in tune.  I
    also find that it is indispensible for playing with my friends
    who are pretty much as novice as I.  Lots of people are "sure"
    they can tune by ear, and when everyone tunes by their own ear
    the net effect isn't always pleasant.  Now that we have the tuner,
    we tuned up quickly and to standard that isn't disputed.  Not
    only that, but our friends who don't mind singing along or listening
    to us AFTER we get in tune are no longer subjected to the old 
    "tuning song", and we aren't subjected to the increasing volume
    of their disgruntled conversation as we attempt to get in tune.
    
    This is a somewhat religious topic and I never try to tell people
    how to practice their religion.  I suppose that the chief objection
    to electronic tuners is that people stop listening to the note
    and get dependent on the tuner display.  As long as you keep
    perspective(on the idea that the tuner is not the absolute reference)
    and use the tuner like you use a tuning fork (as a reference), I
    think it can be a useful tool.  But do whatever you like by all
    means and take what I've said here with a boulder of salt.
    
    /Ole' Tin ear himself
    has a "good ear", a tuning fork

    I think tuners are a great help. I bought the Boss TU-12,
    which is fully chromatic and tells you what note you're near
    and whether you're sharp or flat. The biggest advantage of
    having a tuner is that you can set your intonation MUCH better
    than you can without one. If you like to fool around with 
    different string gauges and hights, re-setting the intonation
    becomes a common thing to do.
    
    -Dave

    
    Just a couple of late thoughts on this subject. Yes, you should
    know how to manually tune your instrument but one thought seems
    to be missing from most replies. In a noisy "gig" situation it is
    more annoying for the audience AND the front man who is trying to
    maintain some kind of rapport with the punters to listen to "ping
    ping" than for the guitarist to have audience noise ruining his
    concentration.
    
    Its also slightly amusing to see resistance to what is basically
    a device to make life easier from people involved in an industry
    trying to achieve the same thing !!
    
    Please take these thoughts in the humourous way they are intended.

    I got a Banana for Christmas.  Can't believe how sweet I can make
    my guitar sound now! 
    
    
    

How does someone use an electronic tuner to set intonation?
If the tuning machine senses the open string pitch, but the overtone
at the 12th fret is an octave higher, what does the tuning machine do for you?

Also, has anybody tried the $25 Radio Shack tuner?
If I get one, I'd like to start cheap.

- tom]

    	You use it to make sure that the open note and octave note *are*
    the same. Otherwise, the guitar doesn't tune up well.
    
    					Steve

    	Also, depending on how sensitive yours is, a small variation
    may not be detectable by human ears.
    
    					Steve

    I have a Banana and a BOSS TU-12 Chromatic.  The Banana is fine
    for instruments that can be plugged in, but is n/g for acoustic
    stuff.  I can second Ray's comment about noisy environments --
    the Banana will not cut it.  Since I got the BOSS, I haven't
    used the Banana at all.  With the Boss, the Mic. shuts off when an
    instrument is plugged in.  You don't have to switch anything on the
    tuner as you go from string-to-string.  I like it, esp. @ $80.
    
    joe.

    Per Original Base Note (Pun Intended) ...

    Do these tuners work with Bass Guitars?

Scott "Just a Dinker" Dicks

    I have a Korg Digital Tuner (line up the red LEDs with the Green
    ones and go) which works with all tunings and covers a wide enough
    range of octaves (it doesn't look at what octave you are in, just
    how close you are to the nearest correct half-tone) to work with
    12 strings and basses.  The mike is okay in a quiet room, it has
    in-line plugs for anything electrified, and lets you set the frequency
    of an A from 436 to 448 (in increments of 2 hz) if somebody's
    instrument doesn't tune particularly easily (that hammered dulcimer
    is a little flat, could you crank it up just a bit?).
    
    Cost about $40 bucks last year and suits me fine.
    
    - Evan

    I have one of those justina tuners it's 6 or 7 year sold now, still
    works flawlessly (but yuou can't read the switch position markers
    anymore) with a guitar a bass or a synth (I have an analog synth
    that requires tuning occasionally).

                
    dave

    I have a Justina Tuner also, but in order to use it with my bass
    guitar, I have to hit the 12th fret harmonic to get the  E note
    to register. I picked this up from a freind who has a Korg tuner
    & uses it it tune his bass guitar. The other strings don't seem
    to require anything special to get them tuned. I used to just tune
    the A string on the bass guitar, then check the E against the A.
    
    							Jens

    I've often thought an automatic tuner would be a great invention.
    Slide it over a tuning key, tell it what note/frequency you want,
    and start it. It listens to the pitch and turns the key in one
    direction if pitch > setting, and the other direction if 
    setting > pitch.
    
    Maybe 6 of them in an array so you could tune all the strings at
    once???
    
    Edd

    re: .17;
    
    'ts been done (an MQP (Major Qualifying Project) at WPI) already,
    I guess it never made it to the market... an array of six was out
    of the question, the device was too bulky, so you had to mount it
    on each head individually.  Another problem was deviance of key
    shapes & placements.  Nowadays, most guitars are being sold with
    locking nuts & fine adjustment knobs on the bridges, which come
    in such a wide variety of styles that a device to tune them all
    would just be too much hassle.
    
    Jon

    A guy I used to play with built his own guitar and it had active
    electronics, it also had a tuner built in. The tuner consisted of
    three leds for eash string, a green on indicating in tune, and two
    red ones one for flat and one for sharp. He powered this monstrosity
    by using a DIN (similar to MIDI) cable out of his amp drawing both
    positive and negative voltages, also had a power indicator for each
    voltage and a clip indicator.....a sight to see when playing! And
    we called him gyroscrewloose.....                  
    
    dave

I got a BOSS Chromatic tuner for christmas - i love it

when checking for intonations i do the following:

	1. Check the string open

	2. Check the string fretted at the 12th

	3. Check the string (don't know the right phrase for this), by just
	touching the string at the 12th fret and making it ring?

	All three places should give you the same reading on your scale (if
	you've got a scale)

Did this the other night, time for new strings 8^)

-rfl-

    
    I saw a new kind of tuner last night.  It's from Arion, it's a stomp
    box called "Stage Tuner".  It is a quartz tuner with LEDs indicating
    the note and sharp or flat gradations, similar in concept to the
    Boss TU-12 type tuner.
    
    It has two outputs; output one is always live, output two shuts off
    when you kick on the tuner.  When you hit the foot switch, the LED
    comes on indicating the nearest note (only EADGBE though, it's not
    chromatic) and a line of LEDs, all red except a center green one,
    lights up.  You are in tune when the green is on flanked by a red to
    each side. 
    
    By using output two, you can kill the sound of the guitar when tuning
    between songs...nice idea, and as a stomp box you can plop it right
    in front of you on the floor so you don't have to wander back to
    your amp to check your tuning.
    
    Bad news: besides not being chromatic, it is, like all Arion stomp
    boxes, made out of plastic.  Accuracy is probably as good as most
    similarly priced tuners.
    
    Anyway, looks handy for performance use.
    
    

    > Accuracy is probably as good as most similarly priced tuners.
    
    How much is it?
    
     Greg

    
    Re: .11, .12
    
    The guitarist in my band bought one somewhere in Boston for $65.

        

    The other evening I saw someone with a KORG DT1 (which is what I
    use on other stringed instruments) and they did something rather
    ingenious.
    
    The person was playing with a D28 Martin with a pick-up.  The cord
    from the pickup went into the "IN" of the DT1.  The DT1 was on the
    floor propped up by its little plastic cover (its the size of a
    Phillips Cassette Box).  The "OUT" had a cord plugged into it that
    went to the PA.  The perfromer had it on all night and whenever
    he changed a tuning, he just leaned over and looked at the tuner.
    The setup really seamed to work well.
    
    I've used my DT1 with clamp-on pickups in noisy environments and
    it seems to have worked really well.
    
    The DT1 is out of production but is still plentiful and can be had
    for about $50.  Its a nice "automatic" tuner that's got a range
    of 6 octaves and will produce tone-generated sounds out the "OUT"
    port over the range if you want.  
                                        

    
    
    	Coupla tuner questions:
    
    	1. The music store I go to says the Korg DT-2 is the best.
    	   What do you folks think??
    
    	2. They are selling the DT-2 for 59.95, is there a better deal
    	   elsewhere??
    
    	Steve

    I have a couple of mail order catalogs that want $55 for
    a Korg DT-2 so $60 from a local dealer is pretty good.
    
    As far as quality, I recently surveyed tuners and didn't find
    much difference.  I bought the cheapest one that had the features
    I consider important.  As it turned out, it was one of the lowest
    costing units available.  It's made by Sabine, but I don't remember
    the model number.  I think they only make one model anyway.
    
    The features I was looking for were:
    
    	o "Hands off" or "Chromatic" tuning.  I.E. you don't have to
          switch it for each string, it just figures out the note
    	  your playing and tells if it's a little sharp or flat.
    
    	o LEDS instead of needles.
    
    	  The unit I ended up with has a green light when it's in tune,
    	  and two red lights for flat and sharp.   The Red lights blink:
    	  the faster they blink, the more sharp or flat you are.
    
    	  Needle-type indicators stink, IMO.  You just can't see them
    	  onstage.  With the color and blinking speed indications,
      	  I can easily tune the guitar from 30' away!  
    
    	o Calibrate to non A-440 standards
    
    The first two are ABSOLUTE MINIMAL requirements IMO.  I don't like have 
    to get down on one knee (to see or reach the tuner) to just	to 
    tune my guitar.  I can even tune it while I'm playing a sustained
    note.
    
    What would really be great is a stomp box tuner with all these
    features.  When you "stomp" on it, it cuts out the output signal
    so the whole place doesn't have to hear you tune.
    
    I didn't find anything like that, but I really didn't need it.  My GP-8
    guitar processor has a control function that cuts off the sound going
    to the amp and sends the signal to the tuner output.
    
    	db

    gee dave when I saw the Blend they both used "stomp box tuners"
    all it requires is a tuner you can see while standing and an A/B
    box...
    
    dbii

    
    Re: .26
    
    Arion makes a stomp box tuner, Dave, but while it has LEDs, etc.
    the one thing they did to save money was to make it tune only to
    EADGB, not fully chromatic :-(

    It's mentioned in an earlier reply, #mumble humm mumble
    
    

    
    
    	Thanks <again> for the help, Dave.  Where can I find a Sabine
    tuner?  How much did it cost?
    
    Regards,
    Steve

    	I also have the sabine tuner and I also don't remember the model
    number.... The only problem I ever had with it was when I was playing
    outside at a street fair in the sunlight I could not see the leds.
    I ended up tuning in a dark shadow somewhere :^)   It sometimes
    is flakey as a bass player was borrowing it and dropped it. :^(
    I'd recommend that you look at the Boss TU12 or 12H,however they are 
    about $90. There good tuners and sturdy. If it never leaves the
    house the sabine is good also for a lot less.
    
    							Rick
    

    re: . 29
    
>    	Thanks <again> for the help, Dave.  Where can I find a Sabine
>    tuner?  How much did it cost?
    
    I bought mine at Daddy's Junky Music in Nashua for something like
    $45.
    
    	db

    
    	I have a DT-2 and really like it.  I agree about the needle
    style tuners.  One draw back of the DT-2 is that it *eats* 9V
    batteries like potatoe chips and has no AC adaptor (this is easily
    fixed by getting one of those universal adaptor from Rat Shack
    that has a 9V battery plug). I got mine on a one shot for $45
    byu bargaining with a one-horse town music store owner.  I've
    heard good things about the Sabine though...

    
    I have an Arion guitar tuner which has three modes: tune, tune with
    light and one which is just labelled "SOU".  When I switch it to
    this mode it just sends the three lights (one to show if note is
    flat, one for if its in tune and one if its sharp) flashing like
    the front of Nightriders car.  Its driving me potty with curiosity.
         
    -Tony 

>    gee dave when I saw the Blend they both used "stomp box tuners"
>    all it requires is a tuner you can see while standing and an A/B
>    box...
    
    And several more cords (more noise, more setup time), more batteries,
    more complexity, more $$$, ... 
    
    I'm a simplicity freak.  I like to pack as much as I can into one
    box.  It seems entirely reasonable to put that feature in a tuner.
    
    	db

    No add 2 cords and a stomp switch, certainly simpler than havign
    to unplug to tune...
    
    This is not a problem I experience very often, my guitars seem to
    stay in tune pretty well
    
    dbii

    
    Re: .33
    
    Just a guess but if it has an output jack, I would think the "SOU"
    position will emit a tone to your amp for tuning by ear.

        
    re:.36
    
    Ah!!, that a good point.
         
    It does have an output jack. I'll try it tonight.
         
    Cheers,
    -Tony

    
    
    
    	Stoopid question number 346.... I bought a DT-2 tuner and read
    the instructions (they were surrounded by Japanese characters) but,
    I still don't know what CALIBRATE duz...
    
    	I switch it to calibrate and it has a little light at 440, and
    I think I remember that 440 was an A, and that 440 was cycles per
    second, but what does it mean....
    
    	Last night (blush) I was practicing dropping the minor pent
    down three frets (it turns into country!  you folks already knew
    that, huh?) anyway I was tuned to God and wanted to tune down one
    pitch so thhat I'd be in tune with Merle so I thought.... heck I'll
    just move the calibrate thingy down one light... didn't work, the
    tuning stayed the same...
    
    	Besides my question on what the heck does calibrate do, I guess
    I'd like to know if there's an easy way to use the DT-2 to tune
    down an up (aside from just transposing the notes).
    
    
    	Steve

    "Calibrate" is an unfortunate word for what this usually does.
    
    Digital tuners don't really need to be calibrated.
    
    I'm not familiar with the DT-2 but what "calibrate" means on most
    other tuners is allow you to tune to some other standard besides
    A-440.
    
    For example, if you wanted to play along to a record, you'd tune
    your A string to the record, calibrate the DT-2, and then use the
    DT-2 to put the rest of the strings in relative tune with the A.
    
    	db

    
    
    	Sorry, to be so dense...  sooooo I'd tune my a to the record
    then pluck the A with the tuner in calibrate and find out what freq
    the A was at, set it that way, then tune the instrument???
    
    
    Steve

    re: .40
    
    
    > sooooo I'd tune my a to the record 
    
    Yep
    
    >  then pluck the A with the tuner in calibrate 
    
    Yep
    
    > and find out what freq the A was at, set it that way, then tune 
    > the instrument???
    
    No, normally you don't "set" anything although again, I'm not
    familiar with the DT-2.  Normally the calibration control is
    a button you push rather than a switch you set.
    
    When you plucked the A and hit the calibrate button, the tuner
    sorta figured out what your A string was tuned to and adjusted
    its own calibration so that when you try to tune your D string
    (for example), it will register "in tune" when the D string
    is tuned to a fourth up from what your A string is tuned to,
    whereas normally it would tune it to a 4th up from A-440.
    
    In short, normally the tuner tunes to A 440.  With the calibration
    feature you can tune to any reference (A 445 for example).  
    
    Or you could think of it as allowing you to put the guitar in
    relative tune to the A string instead of absolute tune to A 440.
    
    	db

    
    well, at the recent 'anarchy jam', i saw for the first time one
    of these tuners( i live a sheltered life). i fail to find the advantage
    over the ear. does anyone else use one of those things too?
    
    bs

    
    
    	I guess the advantage for me is that the technology provides
    a higher level of precision than my ear does.  And... when there
    is noise around me, I don't have to tell everybody to be quiet while
    I toooooone up.. I just look at the little flashing lights, but
    hey, I'm a beginner.

    re: .42
    
    > I fail to find the advantage of (tuners) over the ear.
    
    You don't see the advantage of tuners????
    
    	o You don't have to make everyone in the audience hear you
    	  tune
    
    	o The inevitability of people around you making lots of noise
    	  doesn't impede your speed, ability or accuracy.
    
    	o You don't have to worry whether or not your in tune with
    	  the other guitar player because his ears are A 439.8 and
    	  your ear is A 440.2
    
    	o You can set your intonation perfectly.  The slight error your
    	  ear is bound to have is acceptable for putting the guitar
    	  in relative tune, but a slight error in you ear when intonating your
    	  guitar has gets magnified in terms of the effect on the overall 
    	  intonation.
    
    	o It's MUCH faster than doing it by ear
    
    	o It's almost always more accurate than doing it by ear
    
    	o It makes it easier if your ear is not that good
    
    How's them for starters?
    
    	db

    
    weelll, i've never tried one - not even sure exactly how they work
    other than they obviously somehow sample frequencies and notify
    you the player when you get there.
    
    Are you implying that you can toooonnnn without playin a note with
    these?
    
    i'm only a purist in the sense of lack of funds, lack of technology
    and am stuck with this tendency to do things the hard way - i play
    them. sometimes ok, sometimes not. i admit to be rather amazed at
    all the techno-toys. IMHO i'm not hearing things all that better
    than when the technology was not there, and i guess i just wonder
    whether folks use natural equipment anymore :-)
    
    bs

    The best argument that I can give for having one is that everthing
    tends to be in tune more often when everyone uses one. I wouldn't
    consider trying to do any form of multi-track recording without
    verifying that all instruments that are tunable (not the digital
    synths, as they tend to lock on very accurately) are really in tune.

    If you just play by yourself, you really don't need one. If you play
    with a group (2 or more) it'll save you lots of time and embarrassment,
    unless you are purposly playing out of tune (Yoko Ono will probably be
    glad to back you up with a few screams that fit the mood).

    I never thought I needed one until I started putting together my 4
    track studio & started doing multi-track things. It seems that I may
    wait a month to a year before adding certain parts. I also have a
    calibration tape that I run thru the tape deck & check against my tuner
    (the deck has a speed control).

							    Jens

    Does anyone know what the Korg Pro (rack mount, lotsa pretty lights)
    tuner is going for now?
    
    Greg

    I know when playing with four of us, we used to spend the first
    half hour or so tunning up, then we'd play a tune and fine tune
    again. I found this very frustrating. Now we have two tuners between
    us and we tune up in about five minutes, and just go.
    
    Dave.

    
    
    	db, yeah, I forgot to mention intonation... after I, ahem,
    completed a fret dressing this weekend, I was surprised to find
    how far off my ear was (comparing fretted not at 12th to harmonic),
    and how my guitar really rings after setting intonation with the
    tuner, seems like harmonics have more volume and that everything
    else seems a little sweeter and more melodious (malodorous??).
    
    	Found out what calibrate does too, it does allow one to toooooon
    up or down relative to another instrument or a record, but in a
    very small bandwidth (that's why I didn't notice the difference
    when I thought I was going up a whole step...<grin>)
    
    
    Steve

    
    
<<    	db, yeah, I forgot to mention intonation... after I, ahem,
<<    completed a fret dressing this weekend, I was surprised to find
<<    how far off my ear was (comparing fretted not at 12th to harmonic),
<<    and how my guitar really rings after setting intonation with the
<<    tuner, seems like harmonics have more volume and that everything
<<    else seems a little sweeter and more melodious (malodorous??).

	Excellent point.  While in college my trumpet instructor
took pains to demonstrate this point - that two instruments playing
perfectly in tune generate more volume (decibals).  Remember that
music is the reception of wave forms produced by a variety of 
mechanisms.  Wave forms are subject to interference (when out 
of tune - nodal lines will form that cancel each other).  When
two strings or two instruments are in tune the wave forms overlay
and multiply the sound.  

	On tuning:

	I use a KORG chromatic.  Have used it for 6 or 7 years
now.  Before a gig when I'm excited and the adrenalin is pumping
my ears fritz out.  I like a tuner to establish a correct reference
pitch that I can then count on to keep my mind right for the
show.

	I set the KORG on E'' - (pitch of the E (.013) string harmonic
	on the 12'th fret) and tune the sixth string.
                  
	Set the tuner on E'.
	Tune the low E (.056) harmonic on the 5th fret.
	Tune the A (.045) harmonic on the 7th fret.
	Tune the D (.035) fretted on the second fret.
	
	Switch the tuner to G''.
	Tune the G (.026) harmonic on 12th fret.

	Fret the B on the 8th fret and play the open G
	to tune the B. (on my D28 the B is inherently 
	flat up the neck if tuned open)

	Then go over the G - D, D - A intervals - they
	should ring without the wah wah sound that you 
	can hear when the strings are not perfectly in 
	tune.
          
	This method is derived from Dan Crary, Johnny Smith
	and Tony Rice.  I've attended workshops wherein each
	of them discussed tuning tips and techniques, and
	this method works on my guitars.  To be really
	successful you need to understand your guitar
	and your own playing style.  I use a lot of cross
	picking in my style and need a careful approach to 
	tuning to get the 'correct' dissonance and maximum
	volume.

    
    ok, i'm sold. Now i mostly play alone with my 4-track which i am
    fairly serious about. So basically i need only what works - i drive
    sh*tty cars, play cheap stereos, so what's it cost just to get
    operating.
    
    And, i guess i just have a lot of confidence in my ear - i usually
    can find 440hz without too much concentration, so i have not felt
    the urge when 4-tracking. My only real problems there are the variables
    between my fostex and my cheap dubber when i do a delux bounce.
    If i add another instrument, i usually relative tune with the speed
    control.
    
    bs

>    weelll, i've never tried one - not even sure exactly how they work
>    other than they obviously somehow sample frequencies and notify
>    you the player when you get there.
    
>    Are you implying that you can toooonnnn without playin a note with
>    these?
    
    This is the essentially how a typical non-chromatic tuner works:
    
    	You tell it what string your tuning, you pluck a note, and
    	it tells you whether your sharp or flat or in tune.
    
    > IMHO i'm not hearing things all that better
    > than when the technology was not there, and i guess i just wonder
    > whether folks use natural equipment anymore 
    
    You sure you're not a purist?  ;-)
    
    The only "natural" equipment is your brain, your body and your talent.
    Contrary to the cliche phrase, no one is "born with a guitar in their
    hands."
    
    	db

    .52 - i'll insist i'm not at purist - maybe poorist.
    
    yes db, you found the natural equipment i was refering to. Hands
    (to crank), ear and brain to measure, analyze and report back to
    hand.  Once upon a time it seemed to me that's how it worked!
    
    I'll second strongly the notion that no one is born with a guitar
    in hand. Even after 25 years, i still very much remember the agony
    discomfort, and the determination required to get any sort of
    dexterity in playing the sucker. And i learned on an acoustic with
    piss poor action - my calouses survive months of inactivity!
    
    i guess i am squaking about what i perceive to be an instance on
    having all the latest tech tools in order to be,
    
    		1. good
    		2. professional
    
    IMHO - a good player can make a rather cheap axe still enjoyable
    to listen too. A good player can get it in tune via whatever means,
    and has enough altogether to have people turn and notice. 
    
    I admit there's great players who beyond. I think we even have some
    in DEC and i know i am certainly NOT one. I guess this is why i
    stay with the acoustic/electric - other than the fact i got a nice
    one, it's also good sport :-)
    
    bs

    
    re .53 - well, seems like i generated some comprehendablow in those
    last 2 paragraphs. think it's time to go home!
    
    
    bs

    re: .53
    
    This is all true but do you feel to imply that it is somehow "less
    noble" to use something like a tuner or a similar technical advance?
    If so, that would make you a "purist" in my book, not that what I
    think matters in the grander scheme of life.  ;-)
    
    Anyway, a tuner can be had for as little as 25 bucks, maybe even
    less.  There's probably quite a for used ones for sale in in the various
    notesfiles and at any given music store that deals with used stuff.
    
    It's been my experience that they all work, and they all work pretty
    well.  Used is ok too.  If you didn't feel like you needed one before, 
    I'd just get the cheapest one you can find.  I might even sell you
    my old one (pre-Sabine).
    
    	db

    
     I never used to use one, I tuned up the 'old-fashioned' way. But...
    when I got back to playing in a band, the elec tuner was THE way
    to go. No problems, well worth the investment, you get to PLAY instead
    of wrangling with getting everyone in tune.
    
      Just my opinion,
    
        Bob

    I use a DT-2 regularly but always leave the final acid test to my
    ear.  Depending on the music to be played, the target instrument
    and of course the player, I have achieved the best results by
    attempting to balance all things.  It took me years to realize that
    a six string guitar is an imperfect instrument which requires give
    and take to achieve a good overall sound.
    
    When my Gibson LG0 (53' vintage) sounds best it's usually about
    25 cents flat (1/4 tone).  My Fender strat ends up sounding best
    with the best intonation  at 5 to 10 cents flat.  My pedal steel
    is another story altogether.  On an E9 neck the E's should be close
    to perfect pitch but the F# and G# need to be at least a quarter
    tone flat to get a good sweet overall tone.  For these subtleties
    I have found it best to trust my ear.  Later I go back and look
    at the DT-2 to see where I've ended up.
    
    Tuners provide an excellent means to quickly get you in the 
    ballpark or to provide a benchmark to develop your ear.  At some
    point it will be beneficial to be able to rely on the ear alone.
                                    

    25 cents would be 1/8 tone, wouldn't it (25% of a half-tone)?
    
    I can relate to flatting the thirds in chords to make them perfect
    thirds instead of tempered, but do you really mean "at least a quarter
    tone flat"?  I'm not trying to argue, just curious.  I certainly
    don't think that equal temperament is the final word in tuning.
    
    Bob
    
    

    
    
                              Fereeee Tooooners
    
    
    	Hey I just saw an add in May's Guitar magazine that offers a
    free quartz tuner!!  Imagine my wide eyed edness!!  Says if you
    send in 12 Kaman string wrappers with a redemption coupon AND 5
    bucks (redemption coupons can be had from your local Kaman dealer)
    they will send you one of their nifty tooners.  I've never even
    heard of Kaman strings.. anybody used them???
    
    
    Steve
    
    Wot?  Guitar strings that don't have "destroyer" or "boomer" in
    their name???

    I used to use nothing but Kamer performers, but can't find them
    in Maine....they are coated with teflon and will resist the corrosion
    logner than any string I've ever seen, funny though when I used
    them I changed strings every wednesday night on a 4 guitars...
    
    dbii

    
    
    
    -< ...if you can stand 12 sets of Kaman strings! >-
    
    
    	I just knew there'd be at least one person who hated these strings
    (never heard of them myself.. but, hey I just found out about barre
    chords last week)... I WAS going to keep an eye out for a dealer,
    but maybe I won't... why do you think they are bad??
    
    
    Steve

    I got a couple of sets of Kaman .009's a while back (funny how the shop
    was giving these away, while other strings were for sale - all you had
    to do to get them was show up) & I'll never use them again. The d*mned
    things wouldn't stay in tune (I don't even have a vibrato on any of my
    guitars, so it wasn't me doing anything hairy with them), even after
    playing 2 gigs over 2 weeks (most strings settle down after a few hours
    of constant use, or a few days constant tension after being installed
    on a guitar). I gave the other set away after this 'bad' experiance
    with them. I use GHS strings & never have any unusual problems. You
    can buy a guitar tuner from Radio Shack for under $30.00 & there
    are plenty of other tuner choices out there. You might want to consider
    another choice of strings.

						    Jens

    Now that's funny because I always felt that they stayed in tune
    better than anything I had used before...and I have a whammy bar.
    My Lead 1 (with kahler) used to stay in tune for a week or more
    at a time using kamen's and doesn't using any other brands (yes
    I use a tuner).
    
    dbii

    Hard to say why that is. Remember, These were given to me for free &
    I did not choose them or pay for them. Maybe things have changed (as
    all things seem to do), but the Kamen strings that I had would not stay
    in tune. The ones that were on my Ovation acoustic 12 string were fine,
    but they are bronze acoustic guitar strings & not something that I
    would put on my solid body electrics (.011's if I recall).

    Now, back to the topic.......
    The tuner that I have is a Justine (picked it up at a pawn shop for
    under $20.00), seems to be a life saver when trying to stay in tune
    with all of my synthesis gear.

							Jens

    I was more joking than anything with that little comment.  I've only
    used one set of them and it's been awhile.  I seem to remember that
    they had large variances in the string gauge.  Overall I didn't like
    the way they felt. I always use GHSs now, they have a nice tone and
    seem to be pretty consistant. 
    
    But figure it this way; You can get a tuner at almost any music
    store these days for $25 or so.  12 sets of strings will cost you
    substantially more than that, even if you can get them discounted
    and/or in bulk.
                   
    Greg

    Does anyone have any information on any rack-mount tuners ?  I think
    if you had on in your rack with big LED's it would be pretty useful for
    stage work.
    
    
    
    				Scary

    The Korg rack mount chromatic tuner is awesome.  It has multiple
    inputs for several instruments and is very readable from anywhere
    on the stage.  Also, its very accurate!!  this is the unit currently
    being endorsed by Bob Bradshaw...you must have seen it in the mags.

    
    
    	Corectomundo!  But if you get the toooner for free after using
    the strings, yer up a coupla tens, right?

    OK, how much dinero are we talking here for the Korg job ?
                                                             
    
    
    				Scary

    
    
    	I paid $50 for mine, but I think I could have shopped around
    and found a dt-2 for $40-$45.  However (being a novice) this tuner
    has been worth every cent... I stay in tune now..

    I think he's talking about the Korg Pro rack mount tuner!  Definately
    more than $50!!!
    
    I asked the same thing awhile back and never got an answer.  The
    rumors I heard from the street (I don't know of any of the local
    stores that have them) are that they run about $250.  Pretty steep
    for a tuner.
        
    ...but boy do they look nice!  You can see the thing very clearly
    from across the room.  (When I saw Winger recently, they were using
    them).
    
    Greg

    I almost had a stroke !  I was half way to Spartanburg before I
    thought that I might need to see what Greg had to say.  I wish $45
    bucks might put something in my rack !  I can't even find a rack
    mounted power supply for under $220 !
    
    jc

    
    Re -.65
    
    This is ignorance on my part but why do want a guitar tuner to keep
    your guitar in tune with your synths?
    
    Isn't it simple matter of tuning the guitar to the synth?  I thought
    the people who would be hot for a tuner were those that didn't have
    such a handy reference.
    
    Frank
    

    A friend bout the rack-mountable korg unbit for around $180. if
    I am correct.

    Funny that you should mention that. My rack synth system (I'm the
    guitar player in this duo) often has no keyboard available to me
    (depends on if I bring my CZ-101 or not, It only comes with me about 50%
    of the time). Most of what I use my synth gear for is sequenced & uses
    MIDI heavily for everything (drums, bass, horns etc.). I play as a
    Single (never carry the CZ-101 when I do this) or in a Duo. I check my
    tuning between sets & with an electronic tuner, I can be sure that I'm
    in tune with my gear without playing anything thru an amplifier. It's
    hard to explain unless you have a similar need, however, I couldn't
    survive without it. I play practically every weekend (usually private
    partys, resorts or private clubs - Moose, Elks, VFW, American Legion
    etc.) & to be honest with you, it looks & sounds unprofessional to
    be banging away on a keyboard & tuning your guitar up to it for
    everyone to hear all of the time. So, a quiet & acurate handy reference
    is really required.

							Jens

    I think the price I heard was list...

    Also synths are always in tune.  If you're playing, many times you'll
    have to retune your guitar a little, and oftentimes you aren't at a
    point where you can hear the synth.  Tuning to the synth at soundcheck
    is fine, but not in the middle of a set when your G is out because you
    were too rough with the trem during the last song. 
    
    Greg

    
    
    	Geee... sorry, I thought that you meant my little DT-2.. but
    <blush> you meant that great big one with the 10,000 points of light,
    huh.  Sorry..

    > Also synths are always in tune.
    
    They may be in tune across the keyboard, but VCOs will drift due
    to thermal conditions.
    
    They are also susceptible to the dreaded "only received 1/2 the
    pitchbend command" syndrome which will immediately send you to
    harmony hell.... (Right, Ray Pelkey??  :^))
    
    Edd

    Thanks!  I could see that.  My impression was that most of them
    don't allow you to tune them though and that other instruments needed
    to tune to them.  
    
    The point was that guitars require frequent retuning, often at
    inconvenient times.
    
    Greg

    I'm looking for suggestions on an electronic chromatic tuner that can be 
    placed between the gutiar and amp.  I'm a little familiar with the Boss 
    TU12, what else is out there (that isn't too expensive)?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    Korg has one that might fit, look like a cassette.  About $100.
    
    Arion has a "Stage Tuner" stomp box that looks kind of nice.  About
    $60.
    
    Then there's the Sabine.  About $60.  Jerry White (ASAHI::SCARY) has
    one of these.
    
    I'm not making any recommendations, although I've heard VERY good
    things about both the Boss and the Korg.
        
    Greg

    
    I got my son a Korg DT1 chromatic tuner for christmas.  He loves it
    and I think its great also.  I've even used it to tune my acoustic
    piano.  Very helpful if for making intonation and compensation
    adjustments on your guitar.  Daddy's sells them for around $70.
     
    - does about 6-7 octaves 
    - can be used in-line or stand-alone (built in mic)
    - can act as a tone generator for any tone in its range
    - has a tuning meter with LED indicator (easy to read)
    - switchable slow and fast response modes
    - Plastic (cassette like cover doubles as a stand)
    - it's slighty (maybe 3/16" bigget than an an audio cassette case
      (just enough difference so when you break the plastic cover, you
       can't use one from an audio cassette case)
    
    happy shopping!
    
    Frank
    
    

    
    
    
    
    	I have a KORG also, it's a DT2 and I really like it.. problem free
    operation for over a year now, retail 79 cost 59 ad tunes any note on
    the neck.. makes it easy to tune up or down to a record or tape.

There are variations on the TU12 that are cheaper. As far as I know, 
there are now three different models of the TU12 - the classic TU12 is 
somewhere around $80, but the cheaper models are under $50.

-Dan

    Radio Shack has a electronic guitar tuner on sale for around $24 (from
    $29).  It has a built-in mike for acoustics and a pick-up jack for
    electric guitars.  It have a select switch for each string and a
    zero-centering type meter for tuning.
    
    Does anyone in notes land have one of these tuners?  If so, what do you
    think?  I go nuts tuning my guitar.  I had a bad ear infection in both
    ears way back in 1969, so both my ears ring, each at a different
    frequency, so I just can exactly match the strings when tuning.
    
    In the ol' 12 string days - I use to shoot for the next octave.....
    ........KA-POW.....
    
    Joe
    :^)
    

    Tuners are great!  I've used one for years and there's nothing like the
    convenience.  There are probably a dozen different brands of the type
    you describe available for around that price range.  Chromatic ones run
    about twice that (or more), but are easier/faster to use since you
    don't have to move the little switch for each string.
    
    Greg

    
    I use a Chromatic tuner,and,its real handy. It has leds that indicate
    whether you are sharp or flat or "on" red for the sharp or flat,green
    for the "in tune". It can also be set for any other reference you want,
    if you want something other than 440 hz. 
    
    Mike
    

I want a new tuner.  I have an old tuner that has become too inconvenient.
This is what I want:

  o "hands off"/chromatic tuning - prefer all notes, not just EADGBE.  I would
	like to be able to check how closely each fretted tone is to the
	proper pitch as well as intonation.  My current tuner has a slide
	switch for each string that is too much of a pain to use.
  o needle instead of LED - I don't play out much and when I do it isn't in
	the dark.  Ideally, I would like the read-out scale to also measure
	cents (1/100ths) off the semi-tone so that I can tune an open
	string a measured amount slightly off perfect pitch.  I don't think
	LEDs will give me what I want.  All guitar tunings are a compromise.
	When I find a tuning I like, I would like to be able to quickly
	reproduce it using the tuner.
  o non A-440 calibration - Ideally, I would like to play an A, push a button
	and have the tuner reset to that frequency as the basis for the tuning.
  o input and output for electric - You may think this is standard, but my
	current tuner only has electric input and no output requiring me to
	unplug my electric to use it for tuning.
  o mic for acoustic guitar
  o rack-mount would be a plus (I don't know if there are rack units that
	have mics for acoustics.)

Since I won't be taking this out much, I don't want to pay extra for an 
especially rugged unit.  I think most tuners with the same features are 
pretty much the same (correct me if I am wrong on this) so I will be looking
for the units that is cheapest that fills the requirements.

Any recommendations on units that might do all or most of this?

Thanks


Jim

    The Korg DT line is real nice.  It has all you want plus a digital
    needle instead of an analog needle.  They make a Pro DT-1 that is rack
    mountable, but it is over $200.
    
    Mike

      The Korg DT-1 Pro is THE top notch digital tuner. It's especially
    nice when integrated into a rack system. I got mine for $160, but
    now I hear from others trying to get them that they run over $200
    to buy one. I think the list is three something. Features include
    four in-line inputs (w/outs) as well as a overiding front input,
    non 440 calibration is possible, mute switch for quiet tuning,
    and easy to read LED meter and visual note indication (auto-range).
      This unit works real well and is part of a lot of pro rigs!
    
    						-BooM-

    
    	I love my BOSS TU??H  tuner.  I believe I'll never need another
    one.  My last one was a SEIKO $39 job - I sold it to Dandrea for $20.
    It was kaka - especially on the low E.  You also had to set the button
    for each string.  The BOSS should be around $100 or so.
    
    -pat

    
    Electronic/quartz tuners are almost a must when workin' with floating
    tremelo.  Makes life A LOT easier.  As far as the brand, I've got a 
    cheapie Banana tuner($25-$30) that serves my purpose.
    
    J.

    I've got a Sabine ST-1000, paid about $45 for it, and it works GREAT.
    Chromatic, LED's, mic and instrument input, output, the usual stuff.
    
    Scary

    Banana tuner and a Gorilla amp...
    
    All you need to make jungle music!

    
    Well?  Where's yer Gorilla amp?  

    Re. .81
    
    I have that Sabine tuner also; I keep it plugged inline between
    my bass and my amp.
    
    The Sabine has several neat bells and whistles:
    
    o - The "hands-free" tuning; no reaching to select your tuned note
    	on the machine.
    
    o - A VERY bright LED display, and one that is, surprisingly, as
    	easy to use as an analog needle - I can read it comfortably
    	from several feet away.
    
    o - It can be "tuned" to A other than 440 Hz ... I haven't used
    	it yet, but I'm sure I will ......;^)
    
    o - A built in mic for acoustic tuning
    
    o - Low cost .... ~ $50.00 at Daddy's f'rinstance....
    
    I luuuuuuuuv my Sabine tuner!
    
    
    				---Eric---

    Those of us with good ears don't USE tuners!
    ;^)

    
    Yeah, but it's not always possible to hear with those good ears, Buck. 
    Sometimes you would need ears like Lassie to tune up quick on stage
    between songs.
    
    You have ears like Lassie?  Oh well, never mind. 8-)
    
    Kevin
    

    I got great ears.  Unfortunately, I'm tone-deaf, rhythmically retarded,
    and un-funkadelic!

    Re: quick tuning on stage
    
    Not only that, but how do you expect your ears to survive 20 years of
    metal and Marshalls on 10?  When you're 40 you'll wish you had a tuner
    ;-)
    
    Mike

    Another vote for TWO GREAT tuners...
    
    First, Scarys Sabine is an AWESOME deal at $45-$50.
    
    For 6 years I've had a Boss TU12 Chromatic.  It's a great tuner also
    with all the features of the Sabine...Unfortunately, after my last gig
    someone dropped it.  Now the needle (it has LEDS too) is stuck.
    
    Anyone have any idea if it's worth repairing ??
    
    jc (Who has SEEN Buckleys Seiko tuner...At least I think it's Seiko ;) 

    
    My unit is a Sabine also. I picked up 3 9 volt adapters for .75 at a
    lawn sale,use them to power my Sabine and effect boxes. No more
    batteries!
    
    Mike
    

     hey midi_rack_puke_face!!!!!why don't you try CAREFULLY
    bumping the thang the opposite way....(like holding it with
    the end that the needle's stuck at upside and whacking it
    on say a dictionary or something that won't absorb all the 
    impact,but also won't destroy the dang thang.
    
    
    (sorry about the rack_puke_face) 8^P
    -Bill
    
    

    No PROBLEM dude !!  I took the DEC Phone book to it, and IT WORKED!
    Hey Pat, these things are TUFF  6 years and counting.
    
    jc

    RE: Coop
    I don't have a tuner...the one at the FaG was Butchaka's.

    No, no it was at your house when I dropped off the SP1000
    for you to use for the PK tape...  Your not pullin' our
    legs are ya dude ?
    
    ;)

    Oh, that one...it was Steve Klosterman's.  I was practicing tuning to a 
    tuner for the studio, but you know I ended up tuning by ear like I
    always do.

    I'd be nowhere without my tuner...Especially with my floyds...
    
    jc

	leading cause of tone deafness. I tune to a $5 pitch pipe.
	I'd probably get one if I were gigging.

    
    	Did anybody see the "Kids in the Hall" episode when the guy
    	was sitting on a stool playin' acoustic and glowing about how
    	wonderful folk music was?  He stops a second to tune and one
    	by one, he cranks every string til they snap!  It was hilarious.

    There's one more factor to weigh if you're considering a chromatic
    tuner:  if you have an instrument with non-standard notes, or one
    with a LOT of notes.  My pedal steel (a single neck 10-string Sho-
    Bud LDG) and my 12-string (a Takamine acoustic tuned one tone low)
    fit BOTH these categories.  Having the Sabine chromatic tuner here
    is a virtual necessity!
    
    						--Eric--
    

    
    
    		I have a couple of Korg tuners. One for home use and
    	one for playing out. The Korgs fit nicely in my case stash
    	areas. I use them for both electrics and acoustics. (Used to
    	use a 440 fork on my acoustics....please, no "eat it" jokes!)
    	Quartz tuners are a real blessing! I used to really hate using
    	a pitch pipe back in the OLD days.
    
    	In tune quickly,
    	DonH
    
    

    I got a Seiko when my fork broke, I had it since I was a kid.
    I don't use the Seiko much, tho , not as much as I did the fork. 
    And it runs out of batteries. Pain, hi Tech pain. Live without it.

I've been using one for years. I wouldn't even consider playing live without
one. I'm able to be exactly in tune with my Rack Mounted gear, without
ever having the audience hear anyone tuning up (I like that, and think that
it's more professional when you are playing for an audience). They may not be
for everyone, but I find it indespensible.

								Jens

    	Has anyone tried out the Matrix foot-pedal kind?  It looks like its
    built into a Boss enclosure.  I saw one at a local (overpriced) store
    for $59.  Are they any good?  Has anyone seen a better price?
    
    	Dan
    

    
    I've used the Arion, which is probably similar, but has a (cheap,
    plastic) Arion case.  Tuned OK, auto-selected the guitar notes *only*,
    and had a bypass function (via the footswitch) so you could shut off
    the output to the amp while tuning.  Price was about the same as what
    you saw.
    
    I own two of the cheapo Matrix tuners and they tune OK.  I wouldn't
    recommend it ordinarily, but I got the two brand new for $5 each...the
    kind of deal you can appreciate, Dan  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    						Brian

    
    Ahhh, I don't need no stinking tuner....I find I can fine tune it a lot
    more with my ear.  However, on stage......well, I just hope that Dave
    Clark brought his!!  I like his Boss tuner a lot, seems to work just
    fine.
    
    Dave

    I used a friends Korg DT-1 chromatic tuner while working on his guitar
    last night and it's quite a wonderful thing.  Made initial tuning of
    floating tremelos after a string change MUCH easier.  I've been using
    the old "flick the switch" quartz tuners for a long time and never
    realized quite what I was missing.
    
    I gotta have one...

    re .105
    
    the Boss tuner is always in my Strat case. I wish somebody would remember
    to bring a SETLIST every time we gig!

    Definite vote for 'auto-string-select' feature; I used to have a
    Korg that required manual select and it was a pain.  The tuner I
    now use auto-selects.  It also has a chromatic feature and displays
    in cents.  No adjustable A=440 feature, which I would like to have
    for playing with piano players.
    
    I do not put my tuner in the signal processing chain, because it
    seemed to reduce bandwidth and add noise.  Instead, I have a homebrew
    A/B switch in which one of the outputs leads to the tuner.  A bonus
    of this arrangement is that 'tuning music' never reaches my ears.
    
    As for desirable features, I would always like better selectivity
    and better 'stability', i.e. the needle doesn't waver about the
    mean.
    
    Regards,
    John K.7

    I bought the Sabine ST1000 chromatic tuner today.  I really love this
    unit!  Thanks to Greg House for letting me experience his tuner with
    the needle on it.  I decided after that I wasn't getting one of those
    ;-)
    
    The LED's really make life easy, and is easy to see/use.  
    
    Funny thing, it also showed me how bad my Fender Mustang is.  I tuned
    all the open strings.  Then I played an A major scale at the 5th fret. 
    The notes on 4 of the strings were out of tune.  Talk about bogus!
    
    Mike
    
    

>    Thanks to Greg House for letting me experience his tuner with
>    the needle on it.  I decided after that I wasn't getting one of those
    
    ;^)
    

    re .109 -  Have you checked the intonation on your 'Stang?
    
    Regards,
    John K

    Yes, but I had the tech at a store check it.  It doesn't matter since I
    won't have it much longer.
    
    Mike

    RE: Sabine ST1000 Chromatic Tuner
    
    I experienced something on band practice last Thursday that I thought
    was strange.  I had my Ibanez 550 tuned perfectly to this Tuner, but
    was out of tune compared to the keyboardist's Yamaha synth.  I figured
    a synth couldn't be out of tune so I tuned to him.
    
    Then I went back and checked my settings against the tuner and only the
    D and G strings showed being in tune.  Is this unit faulty or is it to
    specific for its own good?
    
    Mike
    
    
    
    

    Most synth's can be tuned also ... that may have been the problem.
    
    Scary (who swears by his Sabine ...)

This is how I tune:

1) A and D strings to the tuner.
2) G and B strings to the A and D strings.
3) E strings compromise between E major and G major.

Tuning is a compromise. I like my action relatively high, therefore, my
intonation is off when I use a standard tuner on open strings. I can tune
in silence fairly easily and have it down to a relative science. How you tune,
believe it or not, will depend on what music you play. When starting out, I
suggest that you go through all the open major chords which are the most
critical in terms of intonation. Go through at least E, A, D, G. I tune it so
that A and D have the strongest harmony. E and G suffer a little, but few songs
resolve on those chords.

If you use alot of distortion, you may want to tune it in favor of power
chords, that is, 1-5's.

Tuning is not as important if you're doing mostly solo. If you're a real
fanatic, you can have a different tuning for every song.

For lack of a better term, I call this hot tuning a guitar. I take it slightly
out of equal temperament for stronger harmony on resolving triads.

							John.

    I just wrote a LONG note to Tom Gallo about this.
    
    IMHO, intonation is way-more important than how you tune.  If your
    intonation is adjusted properly, then it doesn't matter how you
    tune your guitar (harmonics, open string, quartz etc...).
    
    If you tune open string (or any way) you should be in tune up and
    down your neck, open chords, strings, or bar chords.  If your not,
    then you need to do your intonation.
    
    Maybe Tom will post the note I wrote him.
    
    jc (Who never copies himself, and maybe should sometimes ;)

The point I'm making is that tuning itself is a compromise. If you follow
the circle of perfect fifths, that is, multiply the frequency by 1.5 each time,
you don't end up at the beginning.

Also, I can't adjust the intonation from the nut, just the bridge, so I expect
to have a little inaccuracy ( which is minimal compared to equal temperament ).

I'm just saying that I tune a little hot towards open A/D ( adjacent fifths )
This has helped my sound tremendously, especially with complex chords where
it's real easy to lose the roots and fifths.

At the bottom line, screw the tuners, use your ears. Once you have something
you like, then you may use the tuner to measure what you have.

							John.

Hi there,


	I am planning to buy a electronic guitar tuner to tune my guitar. Can
	any one give me some idea on which brand or which model is good, not
	necessarily the best.

	Also, I would like my guitar tuner to tune my classic as well as folk
	guitar. Can I buy only one tuner to tune both of them. And, do I need
	to calibrate it before it can be used.

	Thanks in advance for any advice
	Jacky.

>	I am planning to buy a electronic guitar tuner to tune my guitar. Can
>	any one give me some idea on which brand or which model is good, not
>	necessarily the best.

	I got a Sabine Tuner (ST-1000) for Xmas - pays to mark up those
	catalogs & mail 'em to the folks - which replaces the cheap Banana
	tuner I had before.  The Sabine is nice cause you just turn it on
	and it figures out which note you're playing and indicates whether
	it's sharp or flat.  My old banana only knew the standard 6 strings
	and you had to slide a switch to tell it which string you were
	trying to tune.

>	Also, I would like my guitar tuner to tune my classic as well as folk
>	guitar. Can I buy only one tuner to tune both of them. And, do I need
>	to calibrate it before it can be used.

	Both of these tuners have microphones so you can tune accoustics, as
	well as 1/4" jacks for plugging in your pickups.  These guys are
	generally pretty well calibrated out of the box.

>	Thanks in advance for any advice

	Oh, you want advice?  You came to the right conference!  The banana
	tuner goes for about $30 and the Sabine goes for about $50.  No
	contest in my mind: buy the Sabine.

    There are a zillion tuners out there, most of 'em offer the same
    functions these days.  You definitely want chromatic (no hands ...).
    I'll cast another vote for the Sabine.
    
    Scaryu

    
    I've got a Korg. I bought it mainly because I found it hard to tune my
    electric with its slippery maple neck. I now find it really useful on
    the acoustics.
    
    The KORG sounds much the same as the one mentioned previously:
    
    - Auto tuning to the standard six strings tuning.
    
    - LCDs tell you whether you're sharp or flat.
    
    - Can switch to required strings if desired. Probably useful for
    non-standard tunings providing you stick to E,A,D,G,B combinations.
    
    - Has built in mike for all acoustics.
    
    - Can be put 'in-line' for electrics.
    
    - Has built in LAMP that can be optionally switched on. Useful on a
    darkish stage I should think.
    
    
    Only negative it it seems to EAT 9v batteries. I have got through 2 in
    the 18 months I've had it. I must have only used it 6-10 times and it
    does have an OFF switch!
    
    General Question: Why is the dial calibrated with 440Hz (middle C?)
    line? If it just had 440Hz written somewhere on the dial I could
    understand this. It would just indicate what value of 'c' it had been
    calibrated against (C varies doesn't it?). But my tuner has a graduated
    scale with 440Hz at the central point implying that you can tune to
    middle c (440Hz) using this tuner. But you can't. So, what's it there
    for?
    
    Richard
    

	Check out the BOSS TU12.

	Features:

	o LEDs for note
	o LEDs to tell you whether your in tune
	o Needle to tell whether your in tune
	o Chromatic or Guitar/Bass pitches only
	o Built in mic. 
	
	The down side is it's kind of expensive. around $90

	re: Sabine

	I got rid of mine after trying to use it at an outdoor gig
	in bright sunlight. 

	IMHO, the TU12 can't be beat. 

    I'm looking for a tuner that has a good metronome in it...I've seen
    one, but forget the model name (Korg?)!  Any suggestions?

    One more vote for the BOSS TU12 !! I've had mine for several years and
    it still works as good as new even though it's fallen off the top of
    my stack (approx 5 ft) more times than I can remember. It's been
    stepped on more than once and even had a speaker cab put down on top of
    it by an inebriated guitarist (I haven't tried running it over with
    my truck yet, but who knows ....). If I ever manage to kill this one,
    I'd by another TU12, no question.
    
    /Bill

    Ditto on the TU12.  They rule.
    
    I've bounced mine a zillion times too, and even repaired/re-calibrated
    it with a hefty swing of my trusty 'Websters Ninth'...
    Like previous replies, I've had mine for years (and I'm abusive as
    hell with these thing).  If it broke, I'd buy another.
    
    jc (Who is gonna move this to the right topic)

Yet another vote for the TU-12. I've been using one for about seven 
years now, and would never buy another kind.

-Dan

I am in the market for a new tuner, so I wanted to check what the latest 
models were, or what your favorites were.

The basic one I have has a needle movement, a line in (but no line out),
a 6-position [EADGBE] switch, and a mic input for acoustic instruments. 

The one I would like to acquire would have:

- the ability to "know" what string I was tuning so I could have hands-free 
  operation
- LED lights in addition to (in place of?) the needle so I could see the 
  unit without being close up
- the ability to place the unit in between the axe and the amp so I wouldn't 
  have to unplug to use it
- a mic feature for acoustic instruments

I play six-string acoustic and electric, and 12-string acoustic, with 
standard, concert tunings.  (My son is starting viola lessons so it might be 
useful for that, too, but that's not a priority.)

What do you recommend?  My guitar teacher has/recommends the Sabine ST-1000, 
but I see the Boss TU-12 series is popular also, and the Korgs.  I would 
like to spend between $30 and $80.

Thanks and happy holidays,
\Gary

    The Korg GT-1 meets all the requirements you mention.  I'm happy with
    mine.  They're going for about $25 lately, I hear.

    I ditto the recommendation of the Sabine.
    
    It's what I have and I'm extremely pleased with it.
    
    One additional feature it has is that you can calibrate it to a
    different standard.
    
    For example, if you want to tune to an acoustic piano, you sample an
    A off the piano, hit the calibration button, and then tune your
    guitar/viola/etc.
    
    It also has a nice clip to attach it to music stands and such.

I've got a TU12H.  I think it's awesome and I've had it for years-n-years.
I'd recommend it, but they are pricey.

The Sabine is a hot unit and the price is more in line with your requirement.

The Korg in a previous reply sounds like a bargain too.

jc

    I also have a Sabine tuner that I'm real happy with.  You can see the
    LEDs from quite a distance and it seems fairly accurate.  They now make
    a rack mount version of this tuner for you rack-addicts.
    
    Greg

    Musicians Friend lists the new rack-mount Sabine tuners in their
    latest catalog for $119.00. I'd like to check one of these out
    for my "non-midi" guitar rack. Does anyone know if this unit has
    a built-in mic for tuning acoustic instruments? I would expect
    a $119 tuner to have a mic, but being in a rack package, they
    may not have been able to include one.
    
    Mark

    I also agree with the previous notes regarding the merits of the Boss
    TU12 tuner.  I priced it at the local music stores at $90, Daddy's in
    Shrewsbury didn't carry it.  I then ordered it from Sam Ash Music in New 
    York. (Tel (718) 347-7757).  It arrived yesterday, $65.95 plus $2.19 
    shipping charges -).  I had my guitars in perfect tune in no time at all.
    It took about 5 days between order and delivery.
    
    Bob,
    

    
    An interesting Usenet post about the Sabine rack mount chromatic tuner. 
    Thought some of you might be interested...
    
    Cheers,
    Greg
    
    
Article 30513 of rec.music.makers:
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From: CA.JNL@forsythe.stanford.edu (Joshua Loftus)
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers
Subject: Sabine RT-1600 Summary
Date: 9 Nov 1992 12:46:21 -0800
Organization: Stanford University
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If you've managed to tear yourself away from the facinating debate
on r.m.m reorganization, I reward you with a little summary of what
I've heard from folks about rackmount tuners, the Sabine RT-1600 in
particular...

I received messages from 5 people.  Everyone that has a Sabine is
perfectly pleased with it.  The Sabine is:

* Very inexpensive (compared to other rackmounts)
* Easy to use
* Accurate
* Fast
* The little LEDs are easy to see across a dimly lit stage
* Handles low freq (low B on a 5 or 6 string bass) very well

No one reported any quality control problems w/ the Sabine.  A few
knocks on the Sabine:

- The LED's are easy to see, but the letters under them which
designate the frequency you are tuning to are *not*.  The only ways
around this problem are to memorize the relative positions of the
notes you use most often and hope you only have to tweak a little
during a gig, or buy a Juice Goose/Furman power supply with lamps in
it to illuminate the legend.

- The unit is *very* sensitive, so you have to give it a second for
the string to stablize on pitch before you start tuning.  This is
especially noticable if you pluck hard, causing the note to read a
little sharp.  (this may be a quality found in many tuning devices)

- Sabine has essentially taken their hand-held tuner, put it in a
rackmountable box, and jacked the price way up.  However, it is
still the least expensive model I've seen on the market.


Well, it sounds to me like the Sabine works great in a studio or
other well-lit environment.  As far as stage use, it's just a matter
of how dependent you will be on your tuner to stay in tune;
as you know you're off by a few cents to a half step, you can tune
your open strings quickly and easily.  If you really need an
explicit display of the note you are playing, you might look at some
other options:

Korg DT-1-Pro
Roland (don't know of any particular model)
Boss TU-50
Peterson Strobe Tuners

Any other comments?


Thanks for your time!
Joshua Loftus
ca.jnl@forsythe.stanford.edu
------------------------------------------------------Towhead

    
    Just added a new Sabine ST1100 tuner to the heap. I've been using
    a Sabine RT1600 in my rack for about a year now, and really like it, 
    so I decided to swap my Boss TU12 for a small hand-held Sabine. I 
    considered the ST1500, but I decided that I can do without the
    tone generator and transpose features. If I ever need these features,
    the RT1600 has em. The thing I like most about the Sabines is once
    you nail the right note, the green light comes on and stays on. I
    find them to be a lot more stable than Boss tuners.
    
    Paid $49 + tx.
    
    Mark
    
    
    

    Mark,
    
    	I've had one of these and I liked it,but bought a TU12 after I
    went to tune up for an outdoor concert and couldn't see the leds in
    the outdoor lighting(the sun) I ended up tuning up in the van with
    curtains....
    
    							Rick
    

    I've been fighting a losing battle with my 12-string lately, and am
    pretty well decided to pick up a good rack mount tuner to tip the
    scales a little in my direction.
    
    I've read about and tried the Sabine 1600, pretty nice, and seen the
    lights on and heard about the Korg DT-1, supposedly awesome.
    
    I have one question for those of you who own either one.  Are the
    lights visible in direct sunlight???  I have outdoor gigs to do in the 
    good weather, and anything with regular LEDs is pretty well useless.
    
    						Marc

    I've heard that the Sabine is impossible to use outdoors in sunlight.
    I own one but it has never left my studio. The Korg DT1 has an analog
    scale as well as LEDs so it would be a better choice for outdoor gigs.
    There's a big differance in price, though. The Sabine is around $120
    and the Korg is ~$250.
    
    For that kinda money, I'd probably just pick up a Boss TU12 for
    when you need it. It's always nice to have a spare.
    
    Mark

    Gotta agree with Mark here - My TU12 (ole-faithful) is *ALWAYS* in my
    guitar case, but I've got a DT1 Pro in my rack.  
    
    The lights are annoying enough so I can't imagine NOT being able to see 
    it.  :-)  Occasionally, you will see DT-1 Pros in the want ads.  I
    bought mine used for about what a Sabine goes for new...  It's a great
    tuner, and looks nifty.  :-)
    
    jc

    One of the reasons the DT1-Pro is so expensive is because it has
    several inputs on the back. I'm not sure why they designed it this
    way. I think they have like 6 inputs (with a corresponding output
    for each) plus a master output. I think it's designed so the whole
    band can use it, although I can't believe this would be a good
    thing to do. Coop, educate me on this. 
    
    It seems to me that Korg should make a rack-mount model with all the 
    features of the DT1-pro except with just one input. This would be a 
    lot cheaper to manufacture and they could offer it for well under $200.
    
    Mark

    Mark,
    
    Well, Korg heard someone say the same thing.  They have one now,
    I saw it in Musicians Fiend.  They also re-released the DT1-Pro as a
    DTR-1 Pro.  Same basic features, with a giant LED letter (like an
    inch tall) for the note you're playing.
    
    The DTR-2 Pro is a "lite" version without the big-ol-letter, and 
    one set of inputs.
    
    The DT-1 Pro has five sets of In-Outs, a tone generator, a headphone
    jack, slow and fast sweep speeds (for that bitchin' R2-D2 look :-),
    mute, etc...  It's a cool tuner, but I agree, it's a little overkill.
    If it wasn't for the really cool look, and stone-cold reliability,
    I'da probably stuck with the TU12 (which I've had for 10+ years).
    
    But, you know how it is...Good deal comes along, money burning a hole,
    extra slot in the rack...  :-)
    

    That ought to pretty much sew up the market for Korg. 
    
    One rack mount that is overpriced is the little Boss 1/2 rack tuner (TU50?).
    If I remember it's priced about the same as the DT1-Pro (like $289).
    I suppose if all you had was 1/2 space left in your rack, and wanted
    to fill it with a tuner you might just bight the bullet, but that's 
    a lot of money for a re-packaged TU12.
     
    Mark
    

    Yep, I'd say if ya wanna purchase a rack mount tuna, then Korg
    has stolen the show... Although I will say a friend has a Sabine
    rack tuna, and swears by it...I just think the Korg is more stable...
    jc

    If I get a rack mount tuner, I want the one that does the Cylon
    impressions.
    
    That is very cool.

    Thats the Korg DT-1 Pro, db...

    Coop.... somehow... don't ask how... I just knew that you'd be the
    guy to tell me which one that was.
    
    ;-)

    You should buy BoOms...  That turkey - I've been on him for YEARS
    to sell me his...  I buy one and he decides to sell. Sheesh.
    :-)
    
    RackPukeHumanoid

    I think they're cool, but I'm not really all that hot to get one.
    
    For $50 I can upgrade my GSP-2102 and "add" a tuner to it which is
    the more likely path for moi.
    
    	db

    
     RE: -.1
    
      Does that mean you get a "tuner" button to replace the "tone ref"
    button? I'll admit that the strobe tuner built into the Digitech DHP-55
    is fairly cool. I'm thinking of getting a tuning fork.
    
      Actually that is a little TOO retro for me!
    
    							-John R-

    Don't laugh; I've misplaced my electronic tuner and have been using a
    tuning fork lately.  No fancy LEDs, but I don't worry about batteries
    either.
    
    /mr_retro
    

    Is there a jack on a tuning fork to plug into your rig??
    Hmm....

    Probably not Coop, and to top that... it doesn't have any blinking
    lights and it's not even MIDI-compatable!

    Eww!  No LIGHTS?!
    
    db - Thanks for the Cylon reference too...  I *knew* that tuner
    did SOMETHING familiar!!
    jc

    
    my  tuner has a blinking light...it blinks whe I switch the tuner off
    and on lots! 8)
    
    
    
    wanna buy it? $150 and I'm giving it away at that price! 8)
    
    
    						ian

Just a couple of data points for anyone interrested in the Korg DTR1 & DTR2
tuners. I did a lot of shopping for these (as a gift for my son) over the past
few days (both locally and mail order) and the best prices I could find were
offered by the Guitar Center in Boston. Also had a lot of difficulty finding
stores which actually had the DTR-1 in stock, most were backordered.

DTR-1 $250 ($40 less than Wurli)
DTR-2 $139 ($30 less than Wurli)

I was a Daddys in Shrewsbury and the salesperson there were somewhat obnoxious.
After checking stock at all the stores, the guy says "oh, I believe we stopped
carrying these, they're not very good, you should get is one of these Sabines".
I certainly have no problem with Sabine buy my son wanted a Korg and I wanted 
a sales person that was a little more objective.

I ended up purchasing the DTR-1 which is very nice (although, IMO all these
units are way overpriced. I've owned a little Korg DT-1 for years and its
always served well. I even use it for piano tuning.)

Basically, the DTR-1 offers the following features over the DTR-2
 - slightly different display and illumination setup
 - has inputs for 2 instruments (1 on front, 2 from the rear)
 - offers strobe tuning as one of its tuning options
 - has a built in mike (would have gone for the DTR-2 if it had this)
 - can output selectable reference tones (has seperate rear jack)
 - has the cord test feature (have no idea how well this works)

Bottom line, very pleased with thye unit. As a consumer, I'd be happy to
see Korg eliminate the DTR-2 and sell the sell the DTR-1 for the $139. :-)

Frank

    
    
      I recently sold my DT-1 Pro. I obviously was content with it for many
    years because I went for the new DTR-1 tuner. I'm real impressed with
    the additional features and on-stage visibility. The only reason I
    could see a store not carrying one is because of the price. 
      Sabine - good for the price I guess, but don't A/B it with a DTR-1
    cuz you'll want to shell out the extra $!

When I bought my first guitar, the salesperson at EU Wurlitzer
in Allston (or possibly Brighton) sold me on a Sabine AX-800
"Auto-mount" tuner ($55).   My instinct told me to get something
more conventional- something inline- but the salesperson
insisted that it was much better than anything in it's price
range.

That was one of the worst purchases I've made.  This tuner has 
a tacky rubber pad that you use to stick to the surface of
your guitar.  It senses the vibrations in the body of the 
guitar.  The problems I had were (1) Since it's not inline,
it didn't work well in a noisy environment, it didn't work
at all when our bass player was making noise.  (2) It frequently
fell off the guitar onto the floor - I presumed it must be
designed to withstand such a fall (either that, or it's 
only intended for playing guitar while sitting on your bed).
I had one stop working after about 15 such drops and a second
one stopped working after a similair period of time.

The guy at Mr.C's music in Marlboro got it repaired by Sabine
and then let me exchange it for a Sabine 1500 inline tuner,
which I am very happy with.  The 1500 is about the same price-
around $55.  It tunes all twelve notes and I don't have to 
touch it, plus the 9v battery lasts a long time - so I 
can leave it turned on the whole time I'm playing.  If
I forget to switch it off, it shuts itself off after it
hasn't heard a signal for a certain period of time.

I've also used the $75 Boss TU-80 tuner.  Which works almost as
well in my opinion.  But, I often fail to notice the little 
"sharp" LED, so I sometimes tune to a sharp note by mistake!
Also, I don't understand how a needle can be as accurate
as an LED display - since it's floating in a magnetic field, isn't
it subject to calibration problems?  I guess the main advantage
is that it's easier to see.

The other tuner I've tried, which I would recommend to anyone
who needs one is the $25 Korg GT3.  It works great, it's inline,
it's hands-free, it's got a microphone.  It satisfies every 
need I can think of.

Which leads me to wonder - what makes other tuners worth 10 times
to $$$$ ?

My $55 Sabine has a few additional features over the GT3, such
as a tone generator and the ability to recalibrate - but I never
use these features.

-Paul

    I like that newfangled robotic guitar tuner.
    
    You stick this thing on a tuning peg and leave the room for 10 or 15
    minutes. When you come back, the tuner has somehow sensed the pitch
    of the string and moved the tuning peg to adjust. Now repeat for
    the other 5 (or 11) strings and you're done!
    
    I'ma gonna git me wonna these things.   NOT !
    
    Larry