Conference napalm::guitar

    
    I have never used the Rocktron Hush, but I own an old piece of hi-fi
    gear called a De-noiser that Kenwood made some years back and use
    this while recording.

    These devices operate on similar principles, basically they adjust
    a low-pass filter based on the level and frequency content of the
    input.  Some of these devices have more controls than others, but
    basically they require a threshold adjustment, to set the maximum
    signal level, and a noise reduction adjustment, to set the steepness
    of the filtering.
    
    The idea is that the noise is masked when a stong signal is present, so
    the filter is kept open, and as the signal fades, the filter should
    gradually close to prevent the hiss from being audible. 
    
    The unit I have was intended for hi-fi applications and in that use,
    extreme settings cause "breathing".  This is due to the filter action
    working on the entire signal, therefore a sudden crescendo can cause
    the filter to open suddenly.  If total silence follows, you can
    actually hear the hiss trail off as the filter begins to close again.
    However, I have found that for guitar and bass recording, it works even
    at extreme settings, since the input signal of a single instrument is
    much less complex than the signal from a record or tape (i.e. only one
    envelope to follow).  In fact, I can do things like severe high
    frequency EQ boosts and hear *no* increase in hiss when there is no
    signal present.  The unit has a "defeat" switch and the effect is quite
    dramatic.  Since this unit uses discrete transistors and was designed
    almost 20 years ago, I would expect the newer units to work even
    better. 
    
    It really does do the job.  All the extraneous hiss and garbage
    immediately disappears from the signal. I have found it possible to use
    stomp box analog chorus, delay and spring reverb units in recording
    that were too noisy before.  It also gets rid of the "grunge" noise
    from my Fuzz Face running full tilt in between notes. 
    
    I also own a noise gate.  I prefer the De-noiser, as the noise gate
    cuts the signal off abruptly, and there is no noise reduction happening
    until the gate shuts off, so you have to trade off a little bit
    of noise on the tail of notes versus having the note chop off early.
     
    The Kenwood unit and similar devices from Phase Linear (Autocorrelator)
    and Burwen (Noise Filter) would be suitable only for home studio
    use.  They can be found with some looking around for less than $100
    (I paid $30 for mine).
    
    I have seen units for instument applications from Rocktron, Boss,
    Scholz and dBx.  No doubt others will arrive soon. 
    
    The Rocktron Hush comes in a stomp box model at about $100, half racks,
    full racks (stereo) full racks with combinations of
    Hush/compressor/exciter, etc.  The prices range up into the $400 range.
    The Boss NS-2 stomp box is about $100.  The dBx 563 is a half-rack unit
    at about $250.  The Scholz "Smart Gate" sounds like a similar unit and
    sells for $100 list (it's new, no idea how heavy it will be
    discounted),in the usual Scholz half-rack box (I find Rockman units
    very quiet, if this is the circuit they use to keep hiss down, it's
    probably worth looking into).   
    
    The dBx and Hush rack units can also be used at less extreme settings as
    additional tape noise reduction for studio or home stereo applications
    (tape collectors take note!). 

    Come on Buck, tell us about your Roctron Hush 2C (?)
    
    I was thinkin' about adding one to my Rack !
    
    Buck ?  Buck ?  You there ?

    Hi JC,
    
    Yes, I'm here.  The HushIICX is a weird unit.  I like it sometimes, and
    other times I hate it.  It comes with a weird 2 prong (ungrounded)
    plug, and the unit can be noisy from time to time, or delpening what
    you use it with.  Its heat sensitive, so you can keep it near the power
    amp.  It hushes ok, but it cuts out the high end in the 10-15K range.
    It makes for a warm sound, but sometimes the `squeek' isn't there.  I
    keep it in my rack last in line (before the power amp), and sometimes I
    use it amd sometimes I don't. 
    
    I think for the service of `no noise', I may rather go with a very hip
    noise gate instead...that way you wouldn't be cutting out your high end
    (the hush works on the theory of expansion coupled with a deesser).
    All the lights look nice though.  ;^)
    
    a quick review from buck

         
    Whilst its not in the same league as rack mount units - I bought
    a DOD Noise gate/loop stomp box, and it cuts out all the unwanted
    crap.  When I turned my fan on I used to get a buzz through my speaker
    stack - but now with the unit on it even cuts that out.  Only thing
    is - when I have my amp on quiet I get a real slight delay between
    the time I play a note and when it actually sounds.  Any ideas 
    why ? any cures ?
               
    -Tony

    
    Re: .3
    
    How to get back your high end....I just boost the high EQ.  The
    his added by the EQ gets squashed by the NR box.
    
    Re: .4
    
    Noise gates are built around voltage comparator cicuits.  Your inout
    has to reach a certain level before the gate opens.  This can cause
    the attack of the note to get lopped off slightly.  To your ear,
    that makes the note sound delayed.
    
    Have I just got a lousy gate or doesn't anyone else have problems
    with the gate "chattering" on fading notes?

>    Have I just got a lousy gate or doesn't anyone else have problems
>    with the gate "chattering" on fading notes?
    
    Does your gate allow you to set the signal level below which the
    gate closes?
    
    If not, you've got a gate that you can't use in your application
    (don't know if that makes it lousy).
    
    If so, I have always been able to find a setting that works and
    doesn't chatter.
    
    Another possibility is to be sure that your levels are matched
    (the levels between the gate input and whatever your plugging
    into it that is).
    
    	db
    

    
    No, my gate lets me set the threshold.  It just has narrow hysteresis,
    i.e. if the input level wavers around the threshold as the note dies,
    the gate will turn on and off.  
    
    The other problem with gates (for me) is that to keep it from cutting
    off the ends of my notes, I have to let a considerable amount of
    noise through as notes fade.  With a dynamic filter, I don't have
    this problem.  
    
    Of course, the *real* problem is a noisy signal chain.  If the chain
    is *very* hissy, a dynamic filter will always outperform a gate.
    Where gates shine is when the noise is primarily low-frequency stuff
    (AC hum).

    I am interested in getting dual compressor/limiters, and dual channel 
    single ended noise reduction. I have looked at DBX performor series 
    1/2 rack modules, the Rane DC24 dynamic controller, and lots of other 
    units. I would like to have two channels of both compression and noise 
    reduction to facilitate recording of vocals and instruments simultaneously,
    and also in my PA system. I need to be able to strap the channels for 
    stereo mixdown. I assume having separate units would be the ultamate, 
    but in order to get good quality components, the cost would add
    up and I would end up using lots of rack space. For example, two DBX 
    163X modules would be about $250, and two DBX 563X modules
    would be at least $300, = $550, and these are bare bones units.
    The Rane DC24 is $489 and it has a noise gate/expander as apposes
    to single-ended noise reduction. 
    
    I am currently looking into a Rocktron unit. The one that sounds
    like it would be the best choice is the model 360 stereo compressor/
    limiter which includes the HushII single ended noise reduction.The 
    compressor can be defeted, so you can use just the noise reduction. 
    The two channels can operate independantly, or as a stereo pair. 
    EU Wurly (Boston) has these in stock and is selling them for $375. 
    I am going to see if the Worcester store has these in stock.
    
    Can anyone comment on these units, or other alternatives ? How
    reliable are Rocktron products ? By any chance, do they offer
    a stereo unit that includes compressor/limiters, noise reduction,
    AND an exciter ? I think they make a mono unit like this. Any
    info would be appreciated.
    
    Mark
    
    

    
    Mark, an alternative to a pair of 163 units from dBx is their model
    166, a dual channel compressor/limiter which also has a noise gate
    function.  You can run strapped for stereo or dual mono, single
    rack space.

    I believe the DBX 166 is in the $400 to $500 range. I prefer
    to stay away from noise gate because of the fact that they 
    gate on and off as the threshold is crossed. A good single-ended 
    nr unit should be more transparent, while effectively removing 
    unwanted hiss, and noise (from compressors, etc.)
    
    Mark
    
                          
    

    Re: .10
    
    You're right on the price, however I have recorded with the 166
    and was surprised when I found out that the basic bass tracks were
    done by running the bass direct to the 166 then to tape, no other
    EQ or processing.  Bass tends to sound noisier anyway due to the
    lack of high end to mask the hiss.
    
    My own experiences at home with cheaper noise gates is the chattering
    you mentioned (see my earlier replies), but this was noticeably absent
    in the 166.  At the price versus the Rocktron price, it's probably
    worth listening to at least once. 

    Mark,
    
    For $239 you can get the Audio Logic MT66 comp/limiter. It has a
    noise gate as well as threshold, ratio, attack, release, input
    level, output level on each channel. It can be linked for stereo,
    and has side chain capability for ducking and other stuff. I have
    one, it's quiet and INEXPENSIVE. I like the DBX 163X better for
    sound reinforcement channel patching though, it's quick and simple
    to set up.
    
    Neal

    Niel, I'm not appossed to saving money. What dealers sell Audio
    Logic ? 
    
    I'm not too familiar with the name brand. Where are these products
    produced ? How reliable are they ?
    
    Mark
    

    Re- .13
    
    I got mine at Steve's Quality Instruments in Danvers, but try 
    Daddy's. They were out of stock at the time I was looking to buy.
    Also, the Music Emporium has 'em. I don't know if Wurly's carries
    AudioLogic (DOD).
    	These units are quieter than the Yamaha GC2020, but maybe not
    as easy to use. IMO, these are quality units. I've never had a 
    problem with mine. I don't know offhand where the line is manu-
    factured.
    
    Neal
    

    
    Re: Audio Logic
    
    As neal says, DOD is Audio Logic.  They have come up with the new
    name, like they did with DigiTech, to avoid scaring off folks who
    don't like their stomp boxes.
    
    As far as I know, all three DOD lines are U.S. made.

    When I first tried a Yamaha GC2020, I rejected it on the basis
    of it being too noisey.
    
    However, I now own a GC2020B.  It seems pretty much the same as
    the first unit, only quieter.
    
    I think it's advantages are mainly flexibility.  It has XLR inputs
    AND outputs in addition to regular phone plug outputs which makes
    it handy for stage and PA work as WELL as studio work. 
    
    It also has adjustable impedance (on inputs and outputs), a variable
    adjustment for input gain AND output gain (makes it easy to match
    both input and output levels EXACTLY which makes it much easier to
    get a quiet signal) and each channel has both a compressor/limiter AND 
    a noise gate.
    
    I haven't had problem with "chatter" in the noise gates.
    
    There's a graphic led read out for the amount of compression and each
    noise gate has a in/out led (useful for setting the gate level).
    
    Feature-wise, it's great.  Sound-wise it's on-par with most of the
    other units in its range, although if I had the extra bucks, I'd
    definitely shoot for the Symetrix or Ashleys.
    
    	db

    Re .17
    
    By the way, how much does a GC2020B sell for at average discount?
    
    I am intersted in the Audio Logic MT66 suggested by Niel, but so
    far, I haven't found any local dealers that carry it, and I don't 
    have the time to run to Danvers or Boston. If anyone knows a dealer
    local to Worcester please let me know. 
    
    Is anyone familiar with Peavey's new line of AMR recording gear?
    They offer a dual channel compressor/limiter/de-esser in a single
    rack space package for ~$189 (Daddy's price), as well as Noise
    gates, and other effects. This series is in an ugly light grey 
    colored package, but for the price, if it does the job well, and
    is quiet, I just might go for it. In my opinion, compressors
    are a necessity, but not so exciting that I care to break the
    bank to buy the absolute best in the world model. Since I will
    be using it with a Tascam porta one and/or a small Peavey PA
    system, I can't see spending $500 for a compressor. I have an
    AMR PMA200 power amp at home, and while it is not the most powerful
    amp in the world, it does the job, and I have had no problems with
    it in 2 years of moderate use.
    
    Mark
    

    I paid about $300 for a GC2020B.
    
    	db

    I went back to Daddy's Friday night to try out the Peavey AMR
    compressor/limiter/de-esser. The saleman started hooking it
    into a keyboard rig, with a mixer, etc but I explained that
    I play guitar and prefered to try it with a guitar and an
    amp both stright in line, and in an effects loop. He set me
    up with a Jackson/Charvel with humbuckers, and a small Peavey 
    combo.
    
    The first thing that struck me is that this thing is very
    noisy. We tried it both ways with excessive noise either
    way. He claimed it was probably quieter in a line level
    efx loop on a mixer, but we tried and it was still noisy
    either way. Besides the noise the compressor was not smooth
    at all. It sounded really choppy. I didn't bother to try
    and critique the de-esser, since the thing was clearly
    unsuitable.
    
    I asked them what else they carried. They offered me DOD, 
    and I said, "Thanks, but no thanks". I asked if they sold
    Audio Logic, and after doing a computer search, they said
    they had one in the chain and could get it by Tuesday. I
    told them I would come back Tuesday and demo it. They claim
    they are selling for $279, with a list of $349. I told them
    they would have to do better than that since (according to
    Niel) they could be had elsewhere for $239. They said to
    come in and try it and "We'll work out something".
    
    Union Music just picked up the Symmetrix franchise and are
    offering a top-of-the-line dual channel model with noise
    gate for $349 (regularly about $449). I haven't checked it
    out yet, but I believe Symmetrix makes real good stuff, so
    I am hopeful.
    
    Does anyone have any experience with the Alesis micro series
    effects. They offer a 1/3 rack space "micro-limiter", "micro-
    enhancer", "micro-que-amp", "micro-equalizer", and of course 
    the "micro-verbII". The thing is if I bought one, I would want
    to buy 3 units to fill a full rack space. Which units are "hot"?
    
    Mark
    
                      
    

RE < Note 1280.20 by ANT::JACQUES >

	Why would you want to set up a comp/limiter in an effects loop?  Doesn't
that defeat the purpose of using a comp/limiter?  It's my understanding that an 
effects loop is set up to ADD (reverb,delay,chorus,etc) to a sound.  A 
compressor needs to be set up not to ADD but to CONTROL a sound.

	Am I missing something?

	Dan

    
    The effect loop is for either or both Dan. You might have a Quadra-
    verb in the loop and a 1 octave graphic EQ is series if you wish. 
    Keep in mind that the loop is line level, so stomp boxes with
    instrument level in's and out's shouldn't be used.
    
    	Neal
    

    
    I agree with Niel, with one slight nit. Some equipment has a 
    buffered effects loop with a pot, or selector switch which
    allows you to choose what level you are driving into the
    effects. My fender Twin reverb (1988 "The Twin) for example
    has a three level effects loop which allows you to match it
    to the effect you are using. Regardless, I generally place
    stomp boxes between the guitar and amp input, and place rack-
    mount (line level) effects in the loop. Likewise, my Peavey 
    701R Mixer has a rts effect send jack, which runs on line 
    level when plugged in all the way, and instrument level when
    plugged in half way.
    
    I agree that compressor/limiters, noise gates, exciters, etc.
    should generally be placed in series, appearing after the
    mixing board and before the recorder inputs in a recording 
    application, or before the power amp in a PA application.
    For the sake of demonstration, I wanted to connect it into
    a loop to see how it would work at line level.
    
    Mark
    

>    The first thing that struck me is that this thing is very
>    noisy. We tried it both ways with excessive noise either
>    way. He claimed it was probably quieter in a line level
    
    The thing you should know about compressors is that the way
    they are implemented is that they use the input signal as
    an input to a circuit that controls the gain of a preamp.
    
    Not suprisingly, they are EXTREMELY sensitive to level mismatches.
    
    	db

    I got a little Rocktron Micro-hush C or something like that. It's
    a 1/3rd rack space box that works great. It does take a little
    of the high end out but I barely notice when everyone else is
    playing. Wouldn't be without it.....
    
    Regards     Scott
    

    I can't remember what note the Dolby flames were in, but...
    
    Has anyone ever considered that Dolby B and C are more sensitive to
    transport quality, head alignment, and head cleanliness than dbx?
    
    Guitars aren't the only things that need attention.  Plus you can't
    expect a Nakamichi-like quality transport in a $400 multitrack deck.
    
    Mike

    This isn't really about noise reduction gear but rather reduction of
    noise in gear. Our bass player brought over a new Fender BXR 300C amp
    last night. It sounded great in every respect except for a very noisy
    fan. It's a two speed fan and if what we were hearing was the low 
    speed, I don't want to hear it at high speed. Way too loud. Any ideas
    on what can be done to quiet a noisy cooling fan ? Thanks in advance
    for any ideas.

    Hi,
    
    I was hoping that there would be an easy answer to the previous
    question about how to quiet an amps very noisy cooling fan. It sounds
    like a vacuum cleaner and you actually have to talk over it between
    songs. Are the only two alternatives to return the amp or remove the
    fan ?  How risky would it be to disconnect the fan ? Where would one go
    to buy a quiet fan to replace it with ? Any ideas would be _greatly_
    appreciated. It's otherwise such a nice amp.
    
    Mark

    
    	"quite fan" is an oxymoron. No fan will be quiet enough to
    be tolerated in a studio. You may want to add a switch that
    allows you to shut the fan off. With the fan shut off, you 
    should limit the amps output power by connecting a smaller
    speaker load. If the amp normally drives a 4 ohm load with the
    fan running, try driving an 8 ohm load without the fan. The
    amp will produce less output power (and less heat) with the
    8 ohm load and probably won't need the fan. 
    
    	Check the manual and see if it makes any mention of this.
    
    	Mark
    
    
    

    First I would verify that this is characteristic of the amp by locating
    another amp and listening to it. If the second amp is just as noisy
    then I would call Fender and explain your problem. They may reccomend
    a fan swap and if this doesn't fix the problem then you might want to 
    consider acoustically by isolating the current fan with foam rubber. 
    Since it is a two speed fan I assume that the speed increase's as the 
    amp gets hotter.
    I had a Mesa Boogie MKII head which had the same noise problem which I
    fixed by replacing the old fan with a new fan that blew less air... The
    comprimise was that my power tube life was decreased a little.
    
    Rick
    
    
    

    Thanks Mark and Rick. I passed on your ideas. It turned out that it was
    the particular unit and not the model. He was able to return the one
    with the loud fan and replace it with one that sounded fine.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    Mark