Conference napalm::guitar

    
    I'm just a hack at the guitar but every modern amp I've ever used
    (i.e. with overdrive capabilities) has more gain than I could ever
    use.
    
    Typically the noise gets to be too much or else the guitar is just
    uncontrollable from feedback.
    
    This even with guitars with weak pickups like my Silvertone.
    
    

    The market is indeed fully flooded with high-gain amplifiers. 
    As WJB indicated, many of the latest albums have the distortion
    subdued a bit. This may be to enhance the high level of finesse
    that people are developing these days (ie fingertapping). Finesse 
    and wild screaming distortion do not exactly go together too well.
    
    The challenges that I see in the amplifier market are not simply 
    achieving higher gain (how much do you need?) but in developing
    midi control, stereo capability (including stereo effect sends),
    programmability (goes hand in hand with midi), and the ability
    to build a transistor amp that actually rivals tubes for tone.
    
              
    Of course, this is just my opinion.
    
    Mark Jacques
             
    

    I don't care for the distortion coming out of any of the modern,
    multi-stage pre-amp amps.  Carlos Santana called it right, "like
    Saran wrap on your teeth".  The best sounding distortion (to me)
    doesn't come from pre-amp overdrive or output tube overdrive or
    transformer saturation or speakers flapping in the breeze; it comes
    from a subtle combination of all these things, plus probably a few
    more.

    /rick

    I too am a hack, but I like some of the sounds available from the
    new equipment.  I think that by including such massive gain, they
    make sure to have enough to suit just about anyones taste.  You
    don't have to turn it all the way up, just as much as you personally
    like.
    
    One thing I've seemed to notice, and I'm sure that someone will
    correct me on this...  As you increase the gain the overdrive gets
    first ragged at one point and then seems to smooth out.  I have
    a little Arion headphone amp with a pot for overdrive saturation.
    If I turn this back toward a minimum setting, it sounds rough, kind
    of a "60s" sound, and if I crank it up the rough edges on the
    distortion smooth out and it's a more uniform sound.  Perhaps this
    is what we're perceiving as 'less distortion' on some of the newer
    recordings.
    
    Greg

    
    Greg (.4) is gettting close to what's actually happening.  A properly
    designed guitar distortion unit should be able to provide a
    "round-corner" distortion characteristic, at some point, in order
    to achieve that smooth, clean sound Bill was talking about.  Some
    of the newer designs are probably accomplishing this as their output
    devices become ever more saturated, especially if these output devices
    are FETs.  The best output characteristics are derived from
    complementary output FETs.  Linear CMOS technology has made this
    possible and is probably being used in some of the newer designs.
    

    
    Now a plug:
    
    Back in the days of slide rules, I was an analog circuit designer and
    spent some effort at developing a primitive (by today's standards)
    guitar signal processor/conditioner.  The design philosophy was
    simple: lotsa gain, super low noise, "round corner" distortion 
    characteristic.  I was able to achieve these ends to my satisfaction,
    but, not being a marketing type, never sold the idea to anyone.
    I was content to be able to get the sound I wanted and to make a
    few more units as favors to close friends.  The unit uses a super
    low noise JFET front end with a linear CMOS buffer/driver.  I believe
    that it's still quieter than any analog guitar signal conditioner
    I've heard yet.  
    

    
    Of course, sophisticated digital signal processing/conditioning is 
    much better, but, for most of us mere mortals, cost-prohibitive.
    
    I figured the last thing the world needs is yet another distortion
    box, and most players seemed perfectly content with what they had.
    Furthermore, the idea of building hundreds of these things with
    my bare hands was, to say the least, unappealing.
    
    But the box is capable of delivering everything from super-clean
    to super dirty, and, after a preliminary set-up of the knobs for
    your guitar output levels, is completely controllable with the guitar's
    volume knob.  
    

    
    I then got an idea for an all-FET amplifier, using the aforementioned
    design as the input gain stage.    If you think that there's still a 
    market for this sort of thing, and you can point me to someone
    with the appropriate marketing savoir faire, I might take these
    designs out of the filing cabinet.  Otherwise, I haven't the foggiest
    idea where to start.  

    	- Tony -
    

    re. .4 & .5 
    
    I think it's possible that the effect you are describing may only 
    apply to transistor amps. I don't think it works the same way with 
    tube amps. When you crank the gain all the way up on a tube amp,
    it's "fuzz city".
    
    Mark J.
    

    
    Depends on whether the output transformer is saturating (fuzzy)
    or the complementary output tubes (smooth and warm).  On a lot of
    amps, the plate bias for the tubes is high enough, and the gain
    low enough, that the output transformer and/or speaker coil will
    saturate first, making a muddy, fuzzy mess.  Some transformer/speaker
    combinations sound okay, though, when they saturate.
    
    	- Tony -
    
    

    
    Van Halen (i thought) used a combo of massive transformer and tube
    struation, piped thru power amps to the saturate the speakers.
    He gets a great tone?!
    
    wjb

    
    Don't exactly know what EVH uses for equipment or how he drives
    it.  I'm just speaking from a design perspective.  A tube's gain
    falls as it approaches saturation, taking the sharp, harsh corner
    off the signal.  When a transformer saturates in the primary, the
    field in the secondary collapses, because there has been no flux
    transition in the primary due to its saturated state.  I believe
    that this yields a differentiator effect where the tube saturation 
    yields an integrator effect.  
        

    
    The speaker coil acts as another differentiator and you'd have to 
    wade through a lot of E/M formulas and some spectral analysis to 
    predict what would happen.  In fact, you'd probably be better off 
    to experiment and determine the right combination of how much 
    saturation goes where empirically.  I'm sure that's what EVH did.
    Cant picture him consulting the CRC or Geik and performing fourier 
    transforms on his GPX to model the whole mess.

    Besides, A lot of a system's distortion characteristic comes from 
    which order harmonics are emphasized, making the whole thing more
    difficult to predict without a thorough spectral study.
    

    
    As I said in .7, speaker and transformer saturation could work 
    together to sound okay.  Techno-nerds like myself, however, are
    not as intuitive as guys like VH, and we have to do things
    formulaically.  FET transconductance functions are a lot easier
    for me to understand and work with than those for tubes and
    transformers, which are, to me, mechanical devices whose charac-
    teristics can differ greatly from one to another, making them less
    easy to predict and more frustrating for us techie-types.  Give
    VH a new amp and speaker combo and he'll probably be able to tweak
    the thing right-on to get his sound in minutes.  I'd be lost for
    hours, without me li'l box.  And I still wouldn't sound anywhere
    near as good as VH.  Most of his sound comes from the fingers.
    

    
    Besides, I've forgotten alot of that heavy duty math capable of
    predicting the performance of electro-mechanical devices.  I need
    something simpler.    
   
    Just do whatever sounds and feels good.  Forget all this techno-buzz-
    word bullshit.  It doesn't amount to anything in the real world.
    
    Ramblin' on ...
    
    	- Tony -
    

    
    EVH uses two 100WT marshall STD amps. All the knows are turned to
    10 (He plugs into the bright channel). He has a variac hooked up
    to the output transformer and cranks the voltage up anywhere from
    400 to 600 volts. He says this melts the tubes, and frequently has
    to replace transformers.  The output from the amps is then sent
    into an HH stereo power amp which goes into two marshall cabs with
    30wt speakers. (Rick B. can clarify any of this)
    
    So, looks like clipping no matter where you look?!
    
    BB

    re: back a few
    
    Yeah, it seems to me that there is less distortion.  Namely Joe
    Satriani.  How does he get that tone.
    
    And EVH had a much better tone on the first 5/6 albums than on the
    last 2 Van Hagar albums.  I read where an engineer or sombody decided
    that he needed to "update" his sound.  Now it seems that his Marsall
    stack sounds like every other Marshall stack, instead of the 'brown'
    sound that he had earlier on.
    
    And from reading all these, it seems to me that Transformers make
    as much of a difference in amp sounds as tubes?  Right??
    
    And what a bout speakers?  Like Dave Davies cutting holes in his
    for that thrash sound in "all of the night"?
    
    Anyway...

    Ritchie Blackmore, back in the days of Deep Purple, had what I consider
    the ultimate "violin" tone; there wasn't a trace of harshness in
    it.  He used a Strat through a modified Marshall Major.  The
    modification was to redirect one of the preamp stages to overdrive
    the input to the other pre-amp stage; sounds like any of a dozen
    modern multi-preamp designs, right?  Yet I can't seem to get this
    tone out of any of the newer amps; they all sound too fuzzy.
    Any ideas?
    
    /rick

    
    RE .10
    
    Wow!!  I wouldn't know where to start an analysis of that set-up.
    The microphonics fed back through those devices susceptable to
    mechanical pick-up must have a significant effect on the output.

    600 V is plate voltage for 6L6-type devices, to the best of my know-
    ledge, so varying the output signal peak-to-peak swing with a variac
    from 400 to 600 V should be no big deal.  What's melting-down his
    amps is the duty cycle of the signal.  It must spend most of its
    time near the 600 V (saturation) level, which would definitely destroy
    transformers and speaker coils that don't have fuses.
    

    
    To achieve this, he HAS to have some kind of preamp/overdrive device,
    or he's got pickups with massive output.  I have to attribute his
    good sound more to his guitar technique and touch than to his equip-
    ment.  I remember reading a while back that, when VH was starting
    out as an opening act for Ted Nugent, Nugent was totally blown away
    by Eddie's sound and asked to try his equipment.  Guess what?? 
    He still sounded like Ted Nugent and not like Eddie.  
    

    
    Have to agree with .11 about EVHs latest stuff.  Sounds mega-lame.
    I hope that his live act is still hot.  Black & Blue is just about
    the lamest tune they've ever done.  
    
    Out of the techno-rathole, it's true that the clean sustain sound
    is making headway.  For those interested in its genesis, listen
    to some of the Allen Holdsworth stuff from the late 70's - early
    80's.  He was using that tone back then.  Again, I think it was
    more a function of technique than technology.
    
    	- Tony -
    

    That sounds like the way Howard Dumble describes the distortion in his
    amps.  He says that there is a 'feedback' where part of the preamp
    output is redirected back in as input.  There is a knob to control the
    amount redirected.  He feels this gives a better distortion tone.
    
    RE: .-2  Speakers definitely color the sound, some sound clean (ex:
    JBL, EV) some have more of a 'warm' sound (ex: Celestion, Peavy
    Black Shadow).
    
    I have a Crate CR160 60wt solid state amp with a Celestion.  I've
    heard the same amp with the std speaker in it and the difference
    was quite dramatic.  My amp sounds pretty good (but I'm getting
    a little sick of the tone, after 3.5 years with it), the other was
    just average.
    
    Greg

    
    I also read that Van Halen uses Sylvania 95 matched tubes.
    Where's the 95 come from...what's that mean?
    
    
    wjb looking for the brown sound!

    This is a little off the subject, but I just picked up a late model
    Fender "The Twin" amp slightly used. I found an interesting tidbit
    of technical information in the owners manual (of all places). In
    describing how the Balanced line out may be used to drive slave
    amps they mention the following:
    
    (reprinted without permission)
    
    "One of the distinguishing characteristics between solid-state amps
    and tube amps is that most solid-state amps are effectively constant-
    voltage output for varying load impedance. Tube amps are a mixture
    of constant-voltage and constant-current and actually approximate
    constant-power output into a varying load impedance. This is impor-
    tant since speakers present a load impedance that varies with
    frequency. A tube amp actually puts more power into a speaker at
    low end resonance and more noticeably at high frequencies than a
    solid-state amp. This can be compensated for by equalizing the solid
    state amp but in order to really duplicate the tube amp, the solid-state
    amp must have much more headroom available ie; A 20 watt tube amp
    driven into heavy clipping can actually put out signal levels
    equivalent to a 180watt solid-state amp. This nine-to-one ratio
    can get excessive when comparing to a 100watt tube amp and therefore
    compromises must be made in selecting a solid-state equivelant"
    
    	This doesn't apply directly to the gain-distortion topic, but
    I thought it was an interesting bit of info. 
    
    	On a side note, I love the sound availiable from this new Twin.
    This is the first high-gain amp that I have ever owned, and it is
    a bit strange to have all that gain at my disposal. More later,
    gotta go do some work.
    
    	Mark
    
    

    Re.. Wjb,Tony and other interested parties...
    
    	If my memory serves me right what EVH does is he runs his Marshall
100 watts full blast and then uses a variable stepdown transformer to a resis-
tive load to a line level signal,which after his effects rack the signal goes 
through a Hush into power amp's and multiple 4 12 cabs. Sylvania tubes are 
probably tested at 95volts whether this is in reference to bias or grid volt-
age I don't know,however I would guess it isn't bias,he uses 6550 or 6ca7's in 
his amps. He may also use a variac to control his line voltage (AC). Tom S
of Boston did this with his Marshalls to make sure he alway's had 120volts.
	If you desire to get this "brownout sound" I suggest you try to
get ahold of one of the Amp Heaven guys in New York City as they would be 
capable of modifying your 100 watt to get this kind of sound. Locally I
don't know of anyone doing this kind of work.(or would trust)
	If you have an amp design I'd suggest you copyright it or whatever
you have to do to protect yourself as there are amp companies which would
be interested in buying your design just to make sure you don't become a 
competitor and they may never produce it. If the design is quite good they
may produce it,I would insist on a royalty for each amp produced and a contract
stating your payment regardless of the market demand. This is done quite often 
with other designs or inventions etc. HOWEVER I AM NOT A LAWYER ,and what I am
saying is just be careful. Lot's of people have lost alot by not controlling
there situations. The guy(Jennings?) who started Vox amp's lost control when 
he signed a marketing aggreement with an american company(Thomas Organs?) and
Jim Marshall lost a lot of control when Rose-Morris had exclusive distributor
right's. Nowaday's people are more savy to these situations.
	


						Good Luck,

							Rick

    
    Please allow me to rave a little more about my new Twin.
    I also have an old Silver-faced twin, and am using the 2 amps
    for a stereo setup along with my MidiverbII. The MidiverbII
    does some neat things with the stereo field ie; panning, but
    you need two amps or a stereo pa to use the stereo effect. I
    had ideas of using pan pedals, etc to control my signal, but
    have found a perfect way to accomplish stereo, with full control
    at my fingertips. First I plug my guitar directly into the 
    channel switching inputs on the new Twin. I take the effect send
    signal out through my effects, with the last effect being the
    MidiverbII. I then take one output from the midiverbII (left) and 
    connect it into the effect return of the new Twin, and take the 
    other output of the midiverbII (right) and go into the silver faced
    twin. By doing this I am getting a great stereo effects, plus I
    am able to control things with the channel switching on the new
    Twin. The high gain distortion sound comes through both amps 
    equally. The reverb from the new twin comes through both amps, the
    levels controls on the new Twin effect both amps, even the standby
    switch on the new Twin cuts the signal going to the other amp. So
    far I haven't found one aspect of this configuration that I can
    complain about, other than the fact that the two amps are heavy
    and will be a pain to move around.
    
    Enough raving for now. I am like a child with a new toy this week,
    and my wife has to use a crowbar to pry me away from my equipment.
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    

    
    	One specification on gain I've seen was in a review of a HiWatt
    amp. It would put out it's full 100 watts output with one mV of
    input drive. Now, I've determined empirically (with a digital sampling
    scope) that the output of an single, unloaded, Dimarzio PAF pickup
    can reach into the *volt* range on a good strum. That means, the
    output of the guitar can decay to 1 1000th of it's initial value,
    with that amp still putting out full power. I suspect that the strings
    are barely moving for 1 mV of pickup output....
    
    	I've found thru hacking tube amps, that gain must be the right
    kind of gain, to get a good sound. Frequencies below a certain point
    and above a certain point are pretty much useless for guitar sounds,
    and need not have high gains. A properly balanced gain vs frequency
    will produce a more controllable, usable effect than just all out
    gain. It's silly to talk of one without regard to the other; they're
    inextricably connected, like "volts and amps".
    
    	I've also found that the speaker loading has mucho to do with
    the kind of resultant distortion. Try replacing your speaker with
    an 8 ohm resistor, tap off that and drive another amp. A resistor
    is a poor approxamation of a speaker, which, BTW, differentiates
    a signal that's below it's resonance point and integrates all signals
    above it's point of resonance. Not only does the speakers transfer
    characteristics control what sounds it will reproduce, but they
    also control what sounds your *tube* amp will make! This speaker
    factor is less critical for transistor amps...
    
    	Some of the best sounding distortion, I think, comes from a little
    "3 tube wonder" cranked all the way. 12AX7, 30C5, 50W4 single ended
    output. Has the "violin" tone, meaning lots of second harmonics,
    as the "sawtooth" waveshape of a violin tone is comprised of only
    even ordered harmonics. (Those get cancelled in push pull output
    stages, I believe) 2.5W into a good speaker, and it's good enough to 
    jam with a drummer in the same room. Jam with him - NOT blow him away.
                                                  
    	Joe Jas
    

    The "new" Eddie Van Halen sounds (which some folks have mentioned that
    they don't like) is partially achieved through stereo harmonization.
    
    He uses a single Marshall head to get the basic tone, runs it through
    some switchable effects and then splits the signal at a harmonizer.
    My recollection is that the harmonizer is on pretty much full-time.
    
    As Mark has discovered, you can create a wide variety of awesome
    sounds using digital effects and discreet stereo.  I was in the
    same state of euphoria that Mark is in now.
    
    There is a down side however.  My observation is that when you're
    mic'ing the guitar to play through a PA, or to record to a single
    track, you should probably sacrifice the stereo stuff, EVEN just
    for stage monitoring.
    
    Reason: the mixed sound that goes to the tape or the PA is vastly
    different from what you hear standing in front of the two amps.
    I have seen an extraordinarily RICH sound get turned into a very
    poor sick thin sound when mic'ed and this ALWAYS seems to happen
    no matter what you do.  One potential explanation is that the richer
    the stereo effect is to your two ears (which are independent mics),
    the more cancellation effects you get with a single mic, or when the
    two stereo signals get mixed.
    
    In any case, it has certainly been my observation that there is
    a dichotomy between what you hear and what goes to the PA.  That
    is, you sacrifice house sound for monitor sound.  I use stereo
    to jam (and I would when there's no PA at a gig), but I would no longer
    use stereo effects at gigs with a PA.
    
    	db
    
    

    
    Re: -1
    
    FYI, EVH plugs into 2 Marshall heads these days. His set up is 
    in stereo...just like Vai's.
    
    wjb

    Well, after 6+ years of a fond love affair, my (trusty) Boss GE-7
    graphic eq pedal got the trash can burial this weekend.  I used to
    like the fact that it altered my amps tone...now that I'm using more
    tone from the amp, what I'm looking for is just more of the amps
    natural tone, only MORE!  So, I trashed the eq pedal, and am looking
    for something new.  Question:
    
    Q: WHAT WILL GIVE ME THE MARSHALL SOUND, WITH SLIGHTY MORE GAIN THAN MY
       RHYTHM TONE, WITHOUT DESTORYING MY AMPS NATURAL TONE?
    
    I've tried The RAT...I hate it...too much coloration IMHO.  Going to
    try and look into the Boss line.  I see some players (like DiMartini,
    Jake E Lee use the Boss Overdrive pedal with their Marshalls) using
    them...
    
    Anyone out there with any suggestions?!?!?
    B.

      I'm probably not the best person to be answering this, but there
    aren't many of us working this week, so I'll shoot back.
      The other guitar player I'm working with uses a Rat distortion
    pedal and it works for him, but he's using a weird set-up. When
    I first saw it I thought there's no way that is gonna sound any
    good. I was wrong. The guy actually uses a Peavey XR-400 P.A. head
    for his guitar! His effects run into the effects loops and the speakers
    are a 4X12 and two 2X10's. Even though this is a strange set-up,
    he gets a good tone out of it. I just wish he'd win the lottery!
      I would check into the Boss distortion pedals though. They are
    among the most rugged. Even though I still prefer the "rack approach",
    I would plug into the Boss Super Distortion and let 'er rip!
    
    						-B()()M-

re: .22

Well, y'all may think I'm out in left field but here goes...

When I use to play out I used an Ibanez Tube Screamer with my Strat and (old)
Marshall 50 head. I was rarely ever content with the overdrive sound, which I
would pass off as something inherent in the sound of my Stratocaster (which is a
stock '65). After going into "retirement", I decided to get a little practice
amp. I ended  up with a Fender Sidekick 25 Reverb which sounds OK at best.
Actually  it sounds pretty lame. It sounds like a practice amp. It has one 
channel, volume, gain, treble, middle, bass, presence and master  volume and
(boingy) reverb control, preamp out, pwr amp in, headphones  out and a 10"
speaker.

Then I discovered that when I patched the preamp out into the frontend of my
Marshall...WHOA BABY! The preamp in that Sidekick makes a GREAT frontend. My
Marshall still sounds like itself. But I can get a ton of tones out of this
simple setup. First thing I did was get rid of the Tube Screamer. If you try
this, play with the middle controls on both amps. Great clean tones, dirty
Memphis R&B sounds like Ry Cooder uses, all the way to screaming ZZ Top and real
noodling sounds the sort Tom Shulz (?) tried to can. There ain't nothin' wrong
with the preamp section in this rig.

I suggest that you try something like this out. I don't know if other similar
units will produce these kind of results. I haven't had the opportunity to try
out Chandler type products. This was really an accident. It is a bit clumsy in
terms of physical set-up. If you need to radically change your sound quickly, it
may not be appropriate. But for me, THIS WORKS!

--rjb

BTW this works well with my old Fender amps too.

    
    Greggie poo Housey was experimenting with Chandler tube
    driver(rackmount) and Boss distortion(3 channel pedal).  I 
    thought they both sounded pretty good.
    
    J.

    
    	To each his own, but...
    
    	For my money, the best "stomp box" distortion pedal is the Ibanez
    "Tube Screamer". Though it doesn't give the total, all-out fuzz that
    many of the other pedals put out, it sounds the most natural out of all
    the pedals I've heard. 
    
    	I do alot of switching between clean sound & distorted sound within
    each song (i.e.: clean for rhythm, distorted for lead), and one thing I
    can't stand is having a nice clean sound, then stomping on a pedal and
    getting a completely diffenent tone... distortion pedals in particular
    seem to produce a very tinny, chinsy sound. that's why I like the "Tube
    Screamer" so much-- you can't tell where the clean sound ends & the
    distorted sound begins (other than the "crunch" of the distortion
    itself, of course).
    
    	Also, the "Tube Screamer" seems to give the lightest "touch" of 
    distortion; whereas most other distortion boxes can give all-out
    screamin' distortion & not much else, the "Tube Screamer" doesn't
    turn out quite as much fuzz but it can do a nice, subtle tube-like
    distortion-- it's the only pedal I've heard that can do just a smidge
    of distortion. 
    
    
    
    
    Brad Page
    

	I find that need to use 2 different distortion boxes seperately or
	together (along with a compression box) and I'm thinking of
	adding a 3rd box. Why? Because I need a rythem distortion (soft
	distortion, without a harsh tone) as well as a nasty distortion
	that is exceptionally bright for solos. I find that I also need
	something in between (I'll probably build my own). Currently,
	when I use both at the same time, I get a very complex distortion
	that does not work well for chords (but either by box itself is
	usable for chords) & if I add compression I get a different sound
	(but a lot more noise). Variations in the tonal quality are what
	I'm looking for & a single distortion box is limited to what it's
	current knob settings are, so I like to mix and match as needed.

	I played around with rack mount effects for guitar & they just
	were not tweekable enough during a performance. I use a lot of 
	MIDI gear & found that I couldn't sequence in the guitar effects
	changes the way that I would work my foot pedals (besides, I like
	to try random things).` 

	I currently have 2 distortion boxes, a compressor, flanger, phase
	shifter, octavator and an analog delay/echo box in my pedal board.
	This all is a part of my microphone stand (uses Ultimate Keyboard
	Stand Parts to hold: Microphone & gooseneck, Drum machine, Lighted
	paper shelf - for words/song list/seqencer disk list and 2 brackets
	for small powered monitors).

								Jens

I always thought the kitty hawk preamps were about the best "stomp box"
distortions I ever found....:-)

dbii

  
    
    re: -.1   
    
    
      
     ......yeah , what dbii said! Gain w/complete control!!
    
    							-B()()M-

    I'd bet there are a lot more big name players using Ibanez Tube
    Screamers than Boss Overdrive pedals.  I know Satch and Eric Johnson
    use them.
    
    Mike

    I know *exactly* what you're looking for Buck, 'cause I'm looking for
    the same thing!  I don't want a distortion sound, just a boost.  
    
    I've been trying some things like the Boss Turbo Distortion as well,
    but not for this, for it's own sound to replace, not augment the
    distortion sound of my amp(s).  This works ok, but it's kind of a pain
    to set up.
    
    Here's a couple of things that I tried that seemed to work reasonably
    well for me.
    
    Chandler Tube Driver set up for just a little overdrive and a level
    boost.  Worked pretty well, but the compression from the Kitty's lead
    channel required that I give it a massive boost in the tube driver to
    hear much difference.
    
    Stomp box EQ in the effects loop (of a GK, but I think it'll work for
    any amp).  Believe it or not, this worked the absolute best of any of
    the combinations I tried to get just a volume boost without a large
    change in tone.  If I stuck it before the preamp it didn't make much
    difference, just a little change in the tone (which helped it cut
    through better).  It didn't have enough boost to make much difference
    in the output level there and it was *really* noisy, but when I stuck
    it in the efx loop, it was a lot more quiet and it gave a nice level
    boost without changing the tone very much (regardless of how I set the
    EQ it seemed at the time).  
    
    Fish the Boss EQ outta the trash and try it in your efx loop (just push
    all the levels up a little) and see what you think.  I'm going to try
    it too, I'd kind of forgotten about this because I decided I didn't
    like the tone of the GK that much so moved on to other combinations of
    equipment (in the quest for the ultimate tone).
    
    Here's another idea, some companies make stomp box preamps that might
    work for this.  I think they're primarily intended for use with
    acoustic-electric guitars that don't put out a good strong signal, so
    they shouldn't color your tone much.  DOD makes one called an FET
    preamp.  Seems like something like this might be worth trying if you
    want a stronger unaltered signal hitting your preamp.  
    
    BTW Buck, I thought the footswitchable master volumes in the JCM900
    was doing this for you?
    
    Buck, PLEASE let me know what you end up trying and how it works,
    because I'm going through the same trial and error process right now
    myself.  I know what kind of a tone you like and our tastes are pretty
    similar, so if you find something that works for ya, it would
    definately be worth my time to try it too.
    
    Greg

    Got a gig this Thursday and Friday...going to be running a Marshall rig 
    like this:
    
    50wt JCM 900 --> power amp in of 100wt JCM 800
     |                 |                   |
    4x12              4x12                4x12
    25wts             65wts               70wts
    
    I'll be using the footswitchable MVs on the JCM 900 for volume boosts,
    and I'll be using the 100 JCM 800 for extra fill.  I think I'll borrow
    a BOSS pedal or an MXR Micro Amp for a boost thing.  Hey Rick C., wanna
    sell me my Micro Amp back?!?  ;^)
    
    Buc

    I use a stomp box preamp for solos - it really just acts as a volume
    boost rather than modifying the tone or distortion characteristics
    much. However, if you've got already got a balls-to-the-wall distortion
    sound on the amp, then it doesn't do much of anything, because you're
    obviously already driving the input stage pretty hard.
    
    Also, Buck, since you're using a Marshall, you might want to check out
    the Guv'nor footpedal. Apparently it's got a valve (oh, alright, tube!)
    in it, so it presumably provides some coloration to the sound. I've
    never tried one, but it's had good reviews over here.
    
    Nick

    
    
    re: .-1
    
    	I pretty sure the Guv'ner doesn't have tubes. It's powered by
    a (?) 9V battery, so I couldn't be tubes, could it? 
    
    -T
    

    No tubes in a Guv'nor, but it has an FX loop...just the place to patch
    in yer rack  8^)  8^)  8^)  8^)
    
    							Brian

    
    
    I know that it's not everyone's cup of tea, but the onboard preamp in
    my guitar excels at giving more of the amp's natural tone, without
    adding any coloration to the guitar sound or the amp.
    
    Imagine that instead of stopping at position 10 on the volume knob,
    your guitar could keep giving out a hotter signal all the way to 20 if
    you kept cranking it.  Maybe even all the way to 30.
    
    I get 9 months out of the battery, and when the battery goes I just
    shut off the preamp and resort to straight guitar signal.  
    
    And talk about gain!  My guitar will drive headphones! (Well, it's not
    high-fidelity, but it works. 8-))
    
    My guitar tech made and installed my preamp for $60.  (I'm quite sure
    there was a good profit in it for him at that.)  It's mounted to the
    bottom of a push/pull tone control and the battery fits in the control
    cavity.

    I've been raving (ranting?) about onboard guitar preamps for years. 
    It's a mystery to me why they aren't more popular!
    
    Kevin
    
    

    My EMG setup in my Strat seems to have an onboard preamp which I
    haven't seen with other EMG pickup configurations.  It uses the bottom
    tone knob as a preamp volume and really screams.  
    
    I never really realized that was different then other EMG pickup setups
    until recently when I got a couple of other EMG setups for other
    guitars and was surprised that they just had two tone knobs like a
    stock Strat setup.  Anyone ever seen one of these?
    
    Greg

	I was looking for similiar functionality also,what I wanted to try
was a TC Electronic Booster+Linedriver and distortion pedal(BLD). up to a 
30db increase :^) It has the capability to boost with or without distortion
emphasizes the even harmonics,but TC products are hard to find. 

	"Although graphic EQ's can add to the theoretical versatility
	of an amp, in practice they actually only add to the number
	of un-usable tones.  The high-Q, narrow bandwidth, resonant
	nature of their design adds an unalterable nasal characteristic
	to the sound, and alters the natural harmonic balance of your
	instrument."

	A tube clean preamp boost and tone pedal would be the ticket I'd think,
but the Real Tube and Chandler really don't do this very well. I'd suggest you 
stick to a tube device,the fet overdrive preamps are ok,but mainly geared to a 
distorted sound.....

	I'd suggest you just look for a gain boost mod for your Marshall,There
is a note somewhere which has a few these mods listed. It really depends what 
your looking for and how much of a boost,the more of a boost,the more modifying
    you'll need. Also you may want to consider taking Kevin's preamp boost
    and putting it in a pedal... 
	Anyone know of a TC Electronic dealer in NH,Mass?

								Rick

    I was interested in the TC Electronics Sustain +Parametric EQ pedal
    a while back. I found out that TC is out of business, but there is
    an effort under way to resurrect them. I finally found a used TC
    Sustain +Parametric pedal at Daddy's and was dissipointed with it.
    
    The BLD pedal seems like a weirdo. It has a balanced XLR jack on the
    side and TC claims you can drive it straight into a PA and get great
    sound. I'm sceptical.
    
    For what Buck seems to want, Kevin's idea of an on-board preamp seems
    the best alternative. I used to use an MXR micro-amp years ago, and
    it seems like this box would do the same basic job.
    
    Mark

    Re: .38, .39
    
    I played with a guy who used the TC BLD pedal as a front end to a
    JC-120 (known for its lousy on-baord overdrive).  It sounded great, to
    me.  It has a noise gate built into it.  
    
    I played with another guy who used the parametric EQ with a Boogie MkII
    and it sounded good to me...
    
    But then whadda I know?
    
    							Brian

			<< More Gain ?? >>


Greg,

	If you want more gain, why not increase the first stages of your 
amp or build in an extra IC amp ??

I agree that active electronics in the guitar will provide boost and is 
"technically" the best solution.

Two thoughts......

1.  If you have a solid state amp, I have often increased the front end gain 
for fellow guitarists. It usually just takes a single resistor change ( can 
even make it switchable). You can change the mod back with minimum effort. 
This will have the same effect as an external boost pedal for a few cents.

On a recent mod, I simply soldered a resistor in parallel across the PCB 
original, and increased the gain by a factor of three.

You can also do this for tube amps...but I have little experience in tube 
design. I would guess that this would entail increasing the anode resistor,
but care would need to be taken to ensure you are not driving the tube into 
clipping and therefore changing your "clean" sound.  Perhaps some of the NOTES
Tube experts would like to post some thoughts? 

2. Build in an IC front end into your amp. If you have some experience in 
building a single opamp on "veroboard" then this should be straight forward.
You can run it via zener diodes from internal supplies (not needed for solid 
state amps). Cost about 2 or 3 dollars.


P.S.  Thanks to Rick Busenbark, I have the schematic for the Marshall Guv'nor
pedal. Built it over the weekend in an old sustain unit box. Sounds great !!
It really does sound like a Marshall !

It is designed around a single TL072 bifet opamp, and runs off a single 9 volt
battery. The bits cost me about 10 dollars.

An interesting thought......the front end of this is a variable (via the 
"gain" control) amp from unity to around a gain of fifty. A simple switch
could disconect the internal LED's (used to provide the clipping), and convert 
it into a low noise/vaiable boost pedal. Do you have this pedal Greg ? if so
mail me for details.....

Dave

    I think instead of jumping on the gain bandwagon, I think my
    first "fix" will be to try and play with less distortion in
    my overall sound...could only sound clearer imho.
    
    B.

I basically have two forms of tone control:

Hi Q parametric for the cancellation of feedback ( set to resonent frequencies
of the body ).

Lo Q ( three band ) graphic for basic tonality.

At high volume I turn the high frequency end down a little, as the ears tend
to hear high pitches louder with volume than low pitches. I also add
compression on high volume as the ear is alot more sensitive to the dynamics
of the lead melody and it can be a bit overwhelming. Also great for sustain.

Then again, you're talking to someone who uses a processor with a solid state
amp.

Maybe what you're looking for is something with parametric? TC electronics
makes a great pedal with parametric, boost, and compression all built in.
I think I still have one kicking around from the old days.

Let me rummage around.

							John.

The sustain plus does not have infinite compression, but I believe that is the
last thing you'll need in a live situation. I don't think I've seen a better
stomp box for live situations.

							John.

RE: 674.26

>   the "Tube Screamer" doesn't
>    turn out quite as much fuzz but it can do a nice, subtle tube-like
>    distortion-- it's the only pedal I've heard that can do just a smidge
>    of distortion. 

	I just got one of these from Sam Ash.  When I tried it out, I noticed 
it can't be set to a "no-distortion" setting.  I was hoping it would.  Even 
with the gain all the way down, it still has a constant distortion/overdrive.
Are we talking about the same pedal?

	Dan

    Yep, and Dan, you can set it to NO distortion.
    Step on it !!   ;)
    
    jc

    Cute ....  8^)
    
    Scary

	Somehow I knew someone would say that!

	What I meant was having it set up so that when you played quietly it
 wouldn't distort, but slightly louder would add a bite.

	Dan

    A little off track but,
    
    I hear that Marshall JCM900's do this very nicely.  Something about the
    instrument input sensitivity.  What is it Buck ?
    jc

    Along the same lines, I've heard that the Marshall Guv'nor stomp box is
    responsive like that too.
    
    Greg

    I'll get a chance to hear a Gov'nor this Saturday...
    
    It'll be plugged into a possible-vintage Marshall JMP (or JPM or...).
    Gotta have one ! (A vintage Marshall that is).
    
    jc

    
    
    
    
    .48, right Dan, I know exactly what you're looking for... the closest
    I've ever gotten to that "edgy" kind of over drive (without losing all
    semblance of tone... I'm giving the secret sign now brothers ZXZ) was
    my tube driver by chandler, but I played through an old tube screamer a
    week or so ago, and it was incredible!!!  I loved it, it didn't change
    my fender amp tone.. it just edged it up a bit and gave a little more
    sustain..  I'm still looking for one of these buggers because I'm told
    that the new tube screamers (the only ones that IBANEZ will talk about)
    don't sound as good...  
    
    Gree Vee King
    

While the tube screamer is ok, I don;t find it anything to call awesome. It's
got typical solid state distortion ie: somewhat sterile...

and yes I have a first revision tube screamer..

dbii

	I've had an Ibanez 'Fat Cat' grunge-o-matic for about 4 years
     now, and that has served me well - 60db of gain when it's cranked.  
     It just screams.  I also have a DiMarzio X2N in my lead pos.  and
     that's a real hot p/u to begin with.   But you tap that so's it's
     acting as a single coil, and bring the fatcat dist. level down to
     10-11 o'clock and you can get that tone that people have been
     speaking of, clean/'edgy' unless you let rip, then it gets moving
     again.

        I think when talking about effects, you have to take into
     account everything else in your chain, gtr/pu's, other effects,
     amps, the kind of beer your patch cords are soaking in...

        Has anyone else ever tried/owned a Fat Cat box?  Comments? 
     Gripes?  

    
    
    .53... so dooooood let's talk..... I can't believe that a rack effects
    dood like you would have an old style ibanez tube screamer!!!  How do
    you get that cool tone through all the cables and patch bays??  [;^)
    
    Greve Unit
    Droolin over dbii's tube screamer!!

    From what I could see... Elvis Costello's guitar setup last night at
    Great Woods :
    
    Fender Jaguar ------> Rat ------> 2 AC30s
    
    Getting some _very_ nice tones, both distorted and clean.  He was
    stomping that Rat on and off all night.  A cool and underrated guitar
    player too, IMHO.