Conference napalm::guitar

    Depends on what you call vintage.  You'll see 70's Strats and LPs
    referred to as vintage, and dealers will charge appropriately
    outrageous $$$ for them.  I personally don't consider these vintage,
    and certainly not better as a rule than current production guitars.
    
    But if you're talking "real vintage", LPs from the 50's and Strats
    from the 50's and early 60's, then as a rule you will find some truly
    wonderful instruments.  Whether they're better than new instruments
    is a matter of opinion, but many think so.
    
    The Epi Les Pauls are nice instruments and have a lot of the right
    vibe.  They don't imo have quite the depth and punch of a typical
    Gibson.  My guess is that in the long run you'd be happier with either
    a new or recent used ('87 or newer) Gibson LP, but it'll cost you more.
    At the $$$, the Epi is hard to beat.
    
    /rick
    

If the money was the same, I'd take the Gibson in a heartbeat.

Jim

    		To tell you the truth, I recently had a close look at 
    		an EPI, and as the old saying goes..."Looks good from
    		afar, but far from good". The one I saw was a nice 
    		copy, but lacked the attention to detail that a real
    		Paul would have ( the 'rushed look' paint for ex).
    		Do your self a favour, check your local want ads and
    		used shops before you make your final decision. I think
    		you may be suprised at what you can actually find out
    		there, not to mention that resale thing.
    
    		Best of Luck
    		
    		_kev (Strats rule)
    

    J,
    
    One thing I know is that the older (vintage) guitars -depending on what
    you have- used better grades of wood (supposedly). Good wood supply is
    in  demand these days and boy does it cost if you want a top of the
    line model (I found out that a top end RAMIREZ -classical- runs around 
    20,000+ dollars- new. Vintage electricals run anywhere from 2,000
    dollars and up. Depending on maker, model and whom you purcahse it from). 
    
    I have a 1973 Les Paul Custom Deluxe and I love it (I paid 800 dollars
    for it in 1973, new). I also tend to believe that they just don't make 
    'em as good as they used to.Everything seems to be mass manufactured
    with lots of man made stuff put on the guitars. I mean 'mother of
    pearl'  keys are a thing of the past or am I getting old (getting old  
    I believe!).
    
    OK - granted the electronics may be better today (and at times I
    question it also) but a lot of the sound is still related to the body
    and how well it was made. I don't like the necks on a lot of guitars
    these days. I go into a place called the 'Guitar Center' here in Dallas
    and about 70% of the stuff I play I wouldn't use. Somehow the newer
    lines don't give me the feeling of solidity that the older models have
    - this could also be related to the type of wood used and the fact that
    I am biased somewhat toward the older guitars. 
    
    When considering either new or old, look for things like:
    - Fret action, especially how well the little guys have been put
      on. Sometimes on older models those puppies are really worn. However
      on newer models they may ride higher/lower and don't fit properly on the
      fingerboard (this may cause tuning problems in your less expensive to
      medium priced lines).
    _ A good solid neck made of good quality wood. This includes the
      fingerboard as well. Make sure neck is adjustable and can be easily
      adjusted.
    _ How well the bridge is constructed and how well it is fastened to the
      body. Check for string adjustments also, if up or down adjustements
      are possible from the brige.
    _ Check out any rattles or buzzes - a lot of these are neck and fret
      related. I hear this on lots of new models these days.
    _ Make sure it TUNES well. This is very important - especially on the
      octaves, fourths and fifths. This should be a prime indicator for
      your choice as well. This definetely includes the older vintage
      models also. Older guitars may require a new fret job or 'setup'. If
      you like the guitar, find out what it costs to have it done before you
      buy it. The problem is getting it done then checking to make sure the
      guitar tunes properly. Usually, if it won't tune - DON'T BUY IT!!
    _ Play the guitar through a clean sounding amplifier. Don't use all the
      fancy electrogizmos to test it - because you won't know what it really
      sounds like (you can check it out with the gizmos later). Test it in
      the normal sound mode first. Listen for all particulars related to the
      natural sound it creates in all available sound modifications.
    - Finally, ASK LOTS AND LOTS OF QUESTIONS. If they can't answer them or
      try to answer them or make you feel like your a fly on the wall and
      would rather you go away - don't deal with 'em. Find someone who knows,
      especially the kinds of woods used and how guitars are made.
    
    I could go on but the bottom line most of the time is MONEY. If you
    want to get an older or newer model, decide your monetary range or budget
    and do not vary from it. This is a good discipline because it will make
    you check out everything you play. If you don't have patience and
    aren't in a hurry you will find a good buy (you will also learn a great
    deal about guitars). DO not succumb to sales pressure, especially when
    they say "IT IS THE ONLY ONE AROUND". 
    
    I hope some of this will help you in your decision. Yes they do make
    some really great guitars these days - but you will pay a bit more for
    them.
    
    Have patience - and look and play a lot! Then will you be satisfied.
    
    Glenn                                                                

I saw a piece on a Rock'n'Roll auction where they had among other things
the first Strat prototype.  The bidding ended at $425,000 and guitar didn't
sell because the seller had put a lower limit of $450,000 on its sale!
Wow, imagine bidding $425,000 for a guitar and not getting it.

Jim

    
    
    You know, I've seend pictures of this thing.  I think the guitar
    probably would have sold for $425k, but the owner insisted on the extra
    $25k for the original strings - prototypes for the Ernie Ball Super
    Slinkies!
    

    	So how close to the modern day Strat did it get? Howz about
    	a little description
    
    	-kev
    

    I don't recall seeing anything about a Strat proto, but they did
    auction off a Tele proto; actually it was billed as a proto for the
    first Fender, period.  It was built circa late 40's, Strats came
    later.
    
    This one had a Tele body shape, a little rougher than usual, the
    control plate was at an angle instead of parallel to the strings,
    and it had 3-on-a-side tuners.
    
    It would've been worth more, but someone had routed it for a Floyd Rose
    
    :-)

    		Oh my God...(sigh) that is truly unbelievable
    		Kinda grabs you by the ticker. I'll be shaking my
    		head at that one for an awefully long time.
    		You should have posted a warning before dropping
    		that one.
    
    		_kev
    

    	Thanks for all the info on old vs new but i've got one more
    question........ Who in their right mind would pay that kind of money
    for an instrument that would probably be too expensive to play , i've
    never really understood the mentality behind paying bags of money for
    an item such as the first strat . 
    	Although saying that , any of you strat worshippers out there
    probably consider it to be some kind of religious icon....
    	Having had some good help on the question of retro guitars , what
    about the issue of amps , where do y'all stand on the old Trani / 
    Valve debate..... and what about the combination amps which use a
    mixture of both . I read a review of such an amp in Guitarist mag
    yesterday and it sounded interesting , Particularly due to the fact
    that you could set the usage of either tube or transistor or a
    combination of the 2 at various levels.
    	J

    
    J,
    You might be interested in looking through the following notes in this
    conference:
    
    19, 638, 1980, 1994, 2413, 2930...and a whole bag of others!
    
    As a fellow Brit, I was going to warn you that where you see the word
    "tube" in this conference, read "valve"...but I see it's not necessary!
    
    Dom

    1 more vote for the Epiphone . If your going to play the hell out of it
    I'd say go with the Epi . If your going to put it on a shelf and wait
    then go with the Les-Paul . Actually the Epi is a Les-Paul, made by 
    Gibson , with the same kind of woods to the same specs as a Gibson
    Les Paul . If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, and flys
    like a duck. . .  youve probably got a duck . The Epi is a solid
    value . As a matter of fact , a recent Guitar magazines buyers
    issue has plenty of great things to say about the Epi LP .
    
    I recently got one used in mint (and I do mean mint) condition
    w/o the case for $275.00 . I'm having a great time with it .
    
    JT 

    Hey, uh kev, the comment about the Floyd Rose was just a joke.
    Check the smiley at the end of the post.
    
    Hope your ticker is ok
    
    :-)

    An earlier reply that suggested that "older is better" is just plain
    wrong. Gibson's current guitars have an average quality that is far
    better than that of '70's instruments. They have better wood, better
    workmanship, better finishes and better cases (;-)). They also don't
    have volutes so they gain extra points for that, too. My feeling is
    that the period from '73-'77 represents the lowest point in Gibson's
    quality
    
    I have several times defended '70's instruments as representing
    reasonable value for what you get, assuming you don't buy the real
    dogs. Conversely, I think the idea that these instruments are somehow
    "vintage" is bizarre--these instruments caused the vintage market to be
    born, because when they were made, everyone realized how much worse
    they were than older guitars.
    
    That situation is simply not true today. Gibson's products since the
    mid-'80's have shown increasing quality; those since '91 appear to be
    as good as they've ever made. I've compared Historic Collection
    instruments to the originals and have frequently found the new ones to
    be better (and sometimes cheaper :-)). If you must own an original
    'Burst, be aware that most of the price is in its collectability. If
    you just want a guitar that looks, plays and sounds great, buy a new
    Reissue (or Classic or whatever) and save $35,000 (plus several hundred
    on the Fedex charges). If you think that a '73 LP with a volute,
    laminated neck and plain maple 3-piece top is vintage...well, actually,
    I don't have a good rejoinder for this; fill in your own insult.
    
     
    Danny W. 
    

    
    
    	RE. 8...Good one! ya got me....
    
    	RE.14..Excuse my ignorance but, What's a volute?
    
    	_kev
    

    A volute is the funny "lump" on the back side of the lower head stock
    of '70s gibos...  I guess the idea was to reenforce the headstock
    so one isn't victimized by the famous "gibson snap"...  I've seen
    busted headstocks on '70s gibos tho, so I guess it didn't work...And it
    pissed off a lot of Gibson fans too.
    
    jc