Conference napalm::guitar

    Notice Mr. Rost couldn't poke Becker and Fagen.
    
    Edd

    Messrs Becker and Fagen will have to do a lot better than their recent
    effort for me part with any of my moola. Very uninspired sounding to me.
    Neat vamps patched together to pass as songs.

    --Ron

    And I've never liked ELP, King Crimson or earlier Yes. NEVER. But the
    Dregs I _do_ like. Mostly anyway.

    I think I can prove a commonality of self-indulgence:
    
    I love ELP, Yes, the Dregs, Kansas, etc
    
    I also like a lot of Madonna's stuff.
    
    Q.E.D.
    
    	db

Don't forget King Crimson with that pompous weenie Fripp. What 
a geek! Sitting on his stool playing with his gadgets. Certainly 
one of the biggest egos in rock and perhaps the wordiest columnist 
that ever graced the pages of Guitar Player. He used to go on forever 
about how to hold the plectrum. Very zen and all...Zzz

-Tom

    
    	As I mentioned over in the dreaded "Blooz" note, I went thru a
    Progressive Rock phase in my late teens. I've listened to and played
    many types of music over the years, but "prog rock" is probably the
    only kind of music I "grew out of".
    
    	My main attraction to bands like Yes, ELF and later Rush was the
    lyrics, believe it or not. When I started listening to Rock, I was
    into typical hard rock bands of the day, a la Kiss, Bad Company, etc.
    Then I discovered "songwriting", as something more than "It's late
    an' want love", and that led me to bands that wrote slightly more
    intellectually. Of course, the dazzling wizzardry of the musicianship
    impressed the hell out of me, too.
    
    	The first progressive rock LP I was really into was ELP's "Brain
    Salad Surgery". Loved that Geiger cover art! Yes' "Relayer" was another
    early favorite. I used to listen to Tull's "Passion Play" alot, as well
    as ELP's "Works" & their triple-live LP.
    
    	I was a slow convert to Rush... Geddy's voice on the early records
    drove me batty then. It wasn't until I heard "Xanadu" and the "Farewell
    To Kings" album that I really got into them. The "Caress Of Steel"
    album was another of my fave Rush LP's. Never got into "2112" much,
    though.
    
    
    	I think the main reason I got out of Progressive Rock was that a
    few of my musician pals put together a Rush clone band and invited me
    to play bass (I played bass primarily for a few years). I happily
    joined them, and found it a rewarding challenge at first. But after
    a while, I grew very tired of it. It wasn't that it was boring...
    it just wasn't any fun.
    
    	I love playing onstage, it's the main reason I play... if I was
    forever doomed to play in my bedroom, never to gig again, I'd probably
    give up playing. I love the interaction with the audience, the charge
    you get from being in front of a crowd, even if it's just a handful
    of goobers in a bar.... there's nothing like winning over a crowd.
    
    	I found that when I was in that band, I was so busy just trying
    to play those damn bass parts right that I couldn't enjoy any of the
    other elements of performing live. That's probably a reflection on
    my musical ability... I'm just don't have the fingers, or the memory,
    to play all that flashy stuff accurately. Hell, I can barely remember
    what chords are in a I-IV-V..... :-)
    
    	Anyway, that experience showed me that I'm alot happier playing
    "Johnny B. Goode" (God help me!) and getting into the crowd than
    I am playing "La Villa Strangiato" and sweating my way thru the
    parts without ever having the chance to acknowlege that there's an
    audience out there.
    
    	Plus, I started to see just how overblown those lyrics really
    were. I mean, Jon Anderson is just out there.... I started to listen
    to the Beatles more, I discovered Todd Rundgren, and I appreciated
    the directness of Lennon's and Rundgren's lyrics alot more. 
    
    	Rush is the only pregressive band that I still keep up with,
    largely because they seemed to reach the same conclusion that I
    did... why say something in an LP-sides-worth of music when you can
    do it cleaner in a 5 minute song? I thought they were better off
    when the more or less abandoned the 25 minute epics on "Permanent
    Waves" and started writing to-the-point shorter songs. To this
    day, I think songs like "Freewill" stand as their best work, both
    musically and lyrically.
    
    	I really liked Yes' "90125" album, but most of their recent
    stuff hasn't done anything for me. 
    
    	I can't bash progressive rock; you can't deny the quality of
    musicianship. But I guess I have to use the same argument db used
    in the blues note... I'm not ignorant about the music-- I've listened 
    to it, played it, experienced it, and have come to the conclusion that 
    it's not for me.
    
    C'est La Vie. 
    
    Brad
     

    The only so-called progressive bands I liked/like were bands like
    Caravan,Man,Focus,Hatfield and the North.....the appeal for me was that
    as well as being good musicians,they all could knock out some memorable
    melodies but above all,unlike Yes,ELP,Crimson etc they all had an
    element of humour in their music.
    	I,as a guitarist,can appreciate say Steve Howes playing,but could
    never stomach to this day Jon Andersons pompous,pretentious nonsense,
    (one of the main reasons I believe for Rick Wakeman`s departure),nor 
    could I bear the unmusical racket of Emerson mutilating his Hammond
    with kitchen knives!!!
    	I always thought that so many of these bands would,for me,have been 
    slightly more palatable if they hadn`t taken themselves so seriously.
    It`s like you just can`t imagine Robert Fripp having a drink and laugh
    with the audience after a gig - then again maybe he would!
    	Incidentally the only music I`ve `grown out of` is New Wave type
    music which I loved at the time,but can`t listen to even as nostalgia
    anymore!
    
    Why is this note in the guitar conference incidentally???
    
    
    Tom      
     

    Re: - all
    	i have talked many times about how much I love progressive music
    on heavy metal and I thnk in guitar and I eill say it again.
    
    I just looooove progressive music. I loved it when i was a kid and I
    still love today and I hope to one day be in a progressive/alternative
    band.
    	I love Yes, ELP, King Crimson, Genesis, Kansas, Pink Floyd(some
    might say they are progressive), Moody Blues, Jethro Tull, etc.
    
    Now for the fun part: The Reason why ...
    The majority of my favourite progressive songs include every element of
    music - Dynamics, Tembre, Tempo, Key changes, chord changes, etc. I
    listen and hear musicians that can play a varity of styles and develop
    an idea with music. [ex: Yes-Heart of the Sunrise, ELP-Pictures at an
    Exhibition, King Crimson-Epitaph, Genesis-The Music Box]
     
    I guess you could say that is self-indulgence but some of the songs I
    hear today make me want to scream because of the unneccesary,
    obligatory guitar speed scales that screech, wail and cry for a home.
    Just because a person can play fast does not mean that every song they
    play in has to have a fast scale ...
    Proegressive groups have tended to have a classical influence
    somewhere. It is this stlye mixed with normal rock or jazz or blues
    that offers a small twist on the same ole grind and says that a string
    section can offer a world of emotions in sound.
    
    I have always liked the songwriting. Tell me a story. A lot of
    progressive songs also tell stories. [Rush-The Necromancer, King
    Crimson-Court of the Crimson King, ELP-Karn Evil 9, Yes-Turn of the
    Century] I have enjoyed the alternative to sappy or stupid love songs,
    cheesy drinking songs and songs about death and destruction. KISS used
    to be a band of fasination for me but "I wanna rock n roll all nite"
    just gets boring. Some of the songs have pulled out emotions from me
    that just yank stress and tension away.
    
    On a lighter note: I love Roger Dean art. I admit he has been kind of 
    limiting himself entirely to landscapes as of late. But I couldn't put
    up with Rick Griffin for too long either(Artist for Greatful Dead, at
    least I thin kthat is him). Giger is cool also.
    
    I think that for me progressive music pulls from every style of music
    out there from classical to blues to jazz to metal and hard rock to
    Country and bluegrass and gives it a twist that music it something new.
    
    Until my next rant and rave ...
    
    Give me progressive or give me death!
    
    Chris
    

    
    I think the problem long ago was that someone needed to call it
    something in order to put it in a box, like 'folk-rock', 'jazz-rock',
    whatever. Unfortunately, the term 'progressive' gave it an air of
    elitism. ("What ? I-IV-V ? Well, yes, that's...quaint, isn't it.")
    If this is pro-gressive rock, everything else in rock must be
    re-gressive. And a lot of snooty, my-IQ-is-proportionate-to-the 
    amount-of-chord-changes-and-modulations-I-can-work-under-the-chorus
    kind of attitudes followed. Sure, some folks took themselves too
    seriously, got smug, and wrote stuff that wound up going over the heads
    of folks who dug simpler melodies, chord changes and rhythms. 
    
    So what ?
    
    I was brought up listening to Warner Bros. cartoon music, the Beatles and 
    the British Invasion stuff. Once Sgt. Pepper came out, I got turned on 
    to and began chasing the more esoteric thigns...Zappa, Procol Harum, 
    Traffic, Tull, Spooky Tooth, King Crimson, Nice, QuaterMass, Lindisfarne, 
    Yes, Genesis, Focus, Gentle Giant, Greenslade etc., for probably the
    next 12 years. It wound my crank. I liked the chords. I liked the rhythmic 
    complexity. I liked hearing Hammond church chords and mellotron flutes, 
    dramatic dynamic changes, the stories (as someone already mentioned). 
    Some of it became challenging to play. And I still like it to this day. 
    There is music that those bands performed that *still* gives me 
    goosebumps (George Duke's 'jazz pipe organ' solo in "50-50", or the
    9/8 section of Genesis' "Supper's Ready", for example.)
    
    But although it was the staple of my diet, I still bought records and
    went to see folks like the Small Faces, Johnny and Edgar Winter,
    Humble Pie, the Who, Mountain, and a slew of others. Because that music
    got me excited, and occasionally gave me goosebumps, but not like the 
    other stuff by some of the guys in peasant shirts, scarves and jackboots. 
    
    Sonically, the other stuff was more satisfying to me. I liked the way
    a lot of the music sounded and made me feel. I liked playing it. I still 
    do. But I never thought it made me feel superior or better or smarter 
    than anyone else.    
    
    Peter

    Re: -1
    >But I never thought it made me feel superior or better or smarter 
    >than anyone else.    
    
    My thoughts exactly!
    Thank you.
    Chris
    

    I used to listen to a lot of what gets labeled as "progressiv" music
    when I was younger, stuff like early Genesis, Yes, ELP, Rush (although
    not as much as some of the others), King Crimson.  The funny thing was
    that I wasn't a player at the time and I didn't listen to it for the
    display of musicianship (like a lot of people seem to).  I listened to
    it because I liked the music and it made me feel something.  I didn't
    even know it was difficult to play until many years later (after I'd
    been playing for awhile and discovered that I was utterly incapable of
    playing most of it).
    
    In fact, the thing that struck me about most of those artists wasn't
    the instrumentation, it was the vocals!
    
    I don't listen to that kind of thing much anymore, probably because
    there's very little that's coming out currently that I consider the
    same way.  Rush still does good stuff (at least from what I've heard of
    their new album on the radio), but most of the other groups faded off
    or started playing pop music.  But for me, it's always been the song
    that appeals to me, not the skill.  Seems to me that most of the groups
    these days that are putting out music that gets labeled as
    "progressive" put the emphasis on the difficulty of the material over
    the relative quality of the songs.  
    
    Back in the mid-70s, I knew many many people who were non-musicians who
    loved stuff like ELP and Yes.  Now I see groups like Dream Theater, who
    seem to only attract musicians as their audience.  That tells me that
    their songwriting lacks something that "the masses" want to hear.  I'm
    not going to try and pretend I know what it is, but I really don't care
    for their music either.  
    
    I'd rather listen to someone who can barely play their instrument
    playing a good song then listen to someone who's outstandinly skillful
    playing a boring song.
    
    Greg

> I'd rather listen to someone who can barely play their instrument
> playing a good song then listen to someone who's outstandinly skillful
> playing a boring song.
    
    I agree with this point too.
    I have mentioned many a time that just because a person can play 36nd
    notes blindfolded doesn't make it/him/her good. If you play three notes
    as your solo but it adds to the feeling or emotion of the song then
    that is the best guitar/piano/drum/bass/etc solo ever. 
    I feel that progressive gave musicians a chance to play and be heard in
    a context that allowed them to be free and open.
    
    My most memorable experience with this music is the song Awaken by Yes.
    The first time I heard it It was at the 1990, Around the World in 80
    Dates Tour ( if I recall correctly).. I had front row seats, The
    concert was IN THE ROUND, and in Denver. I had already been graced with
    Mood for a Day and Clap. And these orgasmic piece came on combining
    harps, and keyboards and guitar and bass and I had an experience. The
    emotions that that song pulled from me was incredible. I look at the
    sheet music later and found that it was very simple to play and tended
    to repeat a lot but the way the notes flowed and the chords sang is
    what drew me to the band even more.
    
    I would again say that progressive musiv is not solely for indulgence
    I think you can find that in any style and format that uses the lastest
    riffs and tricks of the trade. If you can't keep me entertained than
    you have just played for your self ( thereby getting self-indulgence)
    
    Sorry, to rant and rave, but I think this style is due for an all too
    long missed come back. Give me my 12 minute song filled with a lyric or
    two, a plot, and some emotion. Not just cheesy lyrics with overrated
    and overused solos.
    
    Chris " Give me progressive music or give me Death" Vermette
    Comet::Vermettec
    
        

    >>But I never thought it made me feel superior or better or smarter 
    >>than anyone else.    
    
    > My thoughts exactly!
    
    Yes, the source of the "pompousness of progressive rock" comes almost
    entirely from the people who put it down.  They ascribe motives like
    "ego" as the reason for wanting to do something other than the same
    old progression, lyrical content,  technique.
    
    The "pompous" thing is just sheer bunk.  My own theory is that it is
    ego-related, but it's the egos of the people who claim that its
    pompous out of some misguided need to defend the kind of music
    they do which, on the surface, seems less ambitious.
    
    I've read hundreds of interviews and such of Emerson, Morse, Satriani,
    Vai, Eric Johnson.  I've even met some of these guys.  None of these
    guys are in it for the ego.  The commonality of these guys is a drive
    to do something totally different, not ego.
    
    However, (as a counter-example)... Yngwie Malmsteen... him... I'm not
    so sure of.  ;-)
    
    	db

> I'd rather listen to someone who can barely play their instrument
> playing a good song then listen to someone who's outstandinly skillful
> playing a boring song.
    
    I also agree with this.
    
    But then, I'd rather listen to someone who plays good music and is
    outstandingly skillful.
    
    I agree that there's fewer and fewer of those guys around these days
    (progressive rock is sorta passe right now), but every now and then
    you find one.
    
    	db

re: .12

>    But for me, it's always been the song
>    that appeals to me, not the skill.  Seems to me that most of the groups
>    these days that are putting out music that gets labeled as
>    "progressive" put the emphasis on the difficulty of the material over
>    the relative quality of the songs.  
	.    
	.    
	.    
>    Back in the mid-70s, I knew many many people who were non-musicians who
>    loved stuff like ELP and Yes.  Now I see groups like Dream Theater, who
>    seem to only attract musicians as their audience.  That tells me that
>    their songwriting lacks something that "the masses" want to hear.  I'm
>    not going to try and pretend I know what it is, but I really don't care
>    for their music either.  
    
Yes, my thoughts exactly!  I think it all boils down to having something
to say.   We've all known people who can ramble on for hours, but don't
really say anything.  To me, that's what it's like to listen to music
that has lots of technique but no content.

>    I'd rather listen to someone who can barely play their instrument
>    playing a good song then listen to someone who's outstandinly skillful
>    playing a boring song.

Of course, it's just as bad to hear a bad player playing a bad song. :-)

-Hal

    re: playing good songs
    
>Yes, my thoughts exactly!  I think it all boils down to having something
>to say.  
    
    I think what Dave's trying to say is that he doens't think most people
    that play blues have a lot to say.  Unfortunately, with a few notable
    exceptions, I think I agree.
    
    Gh

re: .17

>    I think what Dave's trying to say is that he doens't think most people
>    that play blues have a lot to say.  Unfortunately, with a few notable
>    exceptions, I think I agree.
    
And that's a perfectly acceptable reason for not liking blues.  It's *not*,
however, a perfectly acceptable reason for saying the blues isn't any good.
Taste is a personal thing.  What "speaks" to you is a personal thing.
Some people like abstract art.  Others don't get it.  Some people like
poetry.  Others don't get it.  Etc...

-Hal

>And that's a perfectly acceptable reason for not liking blues.  It's *not*,
>however, a perfectly acceptable reason for saying the blues isn't any good.
>Taste is a personal thing.
    
    Of course.  But if I don't like it, then "it sucks" (to me).

    The only thing I really want to say is that I think it's funny, silly
    and arrogant for a blues/R&B type to put down heavy metal or shred
    because "it all sounds the same".
    
    The old proverb definitely applies here:
    
    	People who live in glass houses should not throw stones.
    
    I swear to you all, that that is the only point I really want to get
    across.  If "playing the blues makes you happy" (the apparent 
    self-contradiction within that statement not withstanding)  than
    more power to you.
    
    However, if you put down other kinds of music and cite flaws that apply
    especially well to the blues, be prepared to be hoisted and roasted
    by your own petard.

    
    Well, I suppose I should take most of the blame (credit?) for this note
    (see 2845.106). That being the case, it's about time I made some sort
    of contribution.
    
    >The only thing I really want to say is that I think it's funny, silly
    >and arrogant for a blues/R&B type to put down heavy metal or shred
    >because "it all sounds the same".
    
    Gee, Dave, this really is your pet peeve, isn't it?! Speaking as a
    member of the opposition, I must concede that you've said a lot  of
    intelligent and interesting things in these two
    "notes-to-end-all-notes" so far. However, if you keep coming back to
    the above conclusion, then you're only going to receive answers of the
    "yes, and vice versa" variety. I still think most of the snobbery comes
    from the progressive/metal camp(s), so we'd better agree to disagree on
    that one.
    
    >I swear to you all, that that is the only point I really want to get
    >across.  If "playing the blues makes you happy" (the apparent 
    >self-contradiction within that statement not withstanding) than
    >more power to you.
    
    Hmm, rather condescending, don't you think? A bit like if I said to
    you:"Well, if you think shredding's the way to go - fine. I'll stick to
    playing music, if you don't mind."
    
    The way I see it, you guys are throwing hand grenades, and then
    duscking back behind the barricades.
    
    Dom
                 

    It's amazing, the blues monster has grown tentacles and is attacking
    this note as well!!!
    
    I have a couple of observations about this notesfile:
    
    - The participants of this notesfile, as a rule, are intelligent well
      educated professionals with diverse backrounds and wide ranging,
      sophisticated individual musical tastes.  I have met many of them
      personally and they are without exception open and fair minded.
      Not a single one of them would fit neatly into any one box, as I
      think has been suggested.
    
    - Notesfile participants, by definition it seems, love to argue and
      debate, often along very fine lines and over obscure points.  They
      also like to occasionally play "devils advocate" and stir things up
      a bit.
    
    I don't dispute that the attitudes db and others describe exist in the
    world but I do not think they truly exist here.  If you have an axe to
    grind, this is the wrong place.
    
    /rick

    Well, I think the real question is not whether blues or prog rock suck,
    but what can we do to rid the world of gratuitous fretless bass licks
    on albums by contemporary singer/songwriters...
    
    							Brian

    I don't really have anything to add to whats already been said, but
    seeing that I have always been and still am a very big fan of
    progressive music I figured I'd just add my name to the list of
    people in here that love it.  As a fan of progressive I've always
    felt as if I were somewhat of a rarity because progressive isn't that
    popular with the masses.  Its nice to see that so many people in here
    share my affection for this music.  My favorites have always been
    Yes, ELP, Tull, Genisis, King Krimson, Nectar, Greenslade, the list
    goes on and on.   Like someone else said, I loved this music long
    before I became a musician, but as I started playing my respect and
    love for the music grew.  

    Althoug I think progressive music is often self-indulgent, I have some
    thoughts to share on the practice referred to as shredding. After giving
    it some thought, I'd have to say that as far as I'm concerned shredding
    is equivalent to self-induldgence. As an example I would sight Eric
    Johnson, who -- although a marvelous musician -- is at his worst during
    those passages that he shreds his way through. Same goes for Steve
    Morse, whom I also admire a great deal.

    The problem is that shredding doesn't communicate anything to the
    listener. Yes, aspiring shredders seem to be impressed by it but so
    what. I fully believe that music should communicate ideas and engender
    an emotional response in the listener. Shredding in and of itself fails
    to do this and I don't mean just for me. I'm hard pressed to think of a
    case in which shredding gets much of a response from very many people.
    Oh, I too am somewhat "entertained" by the likes of Via and Satch, but
    not for long as it wears thin after about 47 seconds if that.

    I liken speed playing to eating a four course meal in under 2 minutes.
    What's the point? If shredding is "saying" anything, then maybe it's
    saying it so fast that I'm not understanding it. All it says to me is
    "See how fast I can play." What's that got to do with music?

    --Ron

    re .-1
    
    I liken shredding to manufacturing a 300+ mhz CPU chip without first 
    seeing whether anyone wants to buy one

    It sounds like we are getting back into the old  "It all sounds the
    same so I don't Like it" snyndrom when in actuality its more like
    "I don't like it so it all sounds the same to me"
    The speed VS emotion thing has been beat to death in this notes file
    but just for the record, to me, speed "IS" emotion!!!  I agree It
    can and usually is miss used, but speed is just another tool that
    can open up a musicians vocabulary. If someone talks to much, its
    up to the listener to eather not listen or to enjoy it.
    
     

    >>I swear to you all, that that is the only point I really want to get
    >>across.  If "playing the blues makes you happy" (the apparent 
    >>self-contradiction within that statement not withstanding) than
    >>more power to you.
    
    >Hmm, rather condescending, don't you think? A bit like if I said to
    >you:"Well, if you think shredding's the way to go - fine. I'll stick to
    >playing music, if you don't mind."
    
    > The way I see it, you guys are throwing hand grenades, and then
    > duscking back behind the barricades.
    
    Dom,
    
    I absolutely did not intend to be the least bit condescending.
    
    I just thought "if playing the blues makes you happy" was a funny
    pun.  I shouldn't need to explain that but just in case, the humor
    in it is that "the blues" of course is supposed to be a "sad" thing
    so the idea of doing that making you happy seemed humourous.
    
    There was ABSOLUTELY nothing inherently qualitative about
    anything I said.  The remark you liken it to is clearly qualitative.
    
    I think your reaction, if anything, demonstrates my claim that
    all these problems stem from this defensive posture that bluesers
    automatically assume when discussing their music.
    
    I did NOT throw a hand-grenade - my remark was intended as nothing 
    more than "different strokes".  Your reaction, however, is clearly
    on the defensive.
    
    	db

>    I don't dispute that the attitudes db and others describe exist in the
>    world but I do not think they truly exist here.  If you have an axe to
>    grind, this is the wrong place.
    
    This was written in .22 and trouncingly disproved with the posting
    of .25.
    
    	db

RE: .27 by NEST::TGRILLO

>    It sounds like we are getting back into the old  "It all sounds the
>    same so I don't Like it" snyndrom when in actuality its more like
>    "I don't like it so it all sounds the same to me"

    Shredding is the practice of playing very fast and at great length,
    right? What I am saying that this places a major limitation on what
    someone can express.

>    The speed VS emotion thing has been beat to death in this notes file but
>    just for the record, to me, speed "IS" emotion!!!  I agree It can and
>    usually is miss used, but speed is just another tool that can open up a
>    musicians vocabulary.

    Yes, speed is a tool. But in "shredding" it's more than "a" tool. It's
    the "only" tool.

    Let me explain. Physically, music breaks down into time vs. pitch vs.
    volume (sound intensity). When one or more of these is pushed against
    its limit all of the time, then expression cannot be anything but
    limited. Generally, shred is not only playing fast but it typically
    played at the top end of the volume spectrum too, so it is limited in
    both the time and volume dimensions. That leaves only pitch, which means
    that in terms of entertainment, it's barely a notch above listening to
    someone practice scales. And that's not nearly enough for my liking.

    --Ron

    RE .30
    Your explanation describes what "shredding" means to you.  Fast, loud
    meaningless, emotionless repitition of notes.  Athough this definition
    accuritly decscribes some music that is out there, I would not describe
    shredding in this way.   I have heard many solo's on acoustic guitar
    that I would qualify as "shredding" in my book.  Fast, soft,
    non-repititious emotion packed notes that not only complement the song
    but difine the song.  I consider Flemenco guitar playing as shredding.
    Almost any style of music can contain shredding. It seems your
    definition leans towards heavy metal exclusively.  Seeing this note
    is about progressive music, I'll quote Jon Anderson.
    "The time between the notes relates the colors to the scene"
    Just because there is very little time between the notes in shredding
    doesn't mean there is no color.   

    Everyone knows history is doomed to repeat itself...
    
    They thought violinist Nicolo Paganini had sold his soul to the Devil
    to be able to play such hyper-speed caprices!  They thought W.A.
    Mozart's music was "mindless arpeggios and scales", and had "too many
    notes".  Today, y'all think yes, ELP, Kansas, Dream Theater, etc.
    is over-indulgent, mindless, technique for the sake of...
    
    Today, we recognize those scorned in the past as "genious"...
    
    

    re: LEDS::BURATI
    
    First, thanks for substantiating nearly everything I've been saying about
    bluesers putting down shredding.
    
    Second...
    
>    Shredding is the practice of playing very fast and at great length,
>    right? 
    
    Answer: No.
    
    This is no more accurate than me saying that "the blues" means writing
    a 12-bar progression about how "my baby done left me".
    
    Ron you have provided an absolute classic demonstration of what Brad
    and I (among others) have been saying all along.  People who don't
    appreciate a genre, boil it down to the most common and obvious
    elements: fast playing in the case of shredding, and particular lyrical
    themes and chord progressions in the case of the blues.
    
    	db

    re .32
    
    yeah, but for every Mozart or Paganini there were 10,000 guys whose
    stuff really WAS crap that also got criticized. So what's the point?

    You're welcome, but I was critiquing shredding as a practice and giving
    specific reasons why I find it limiting. I wasn't merely bashing it. Did
    I say that shredding sucks? No. I said that I found it severely
    limiting. Too limiting. For me, music, to fullfill it's purpose, needs
    to be dynamic in every dimension.

    And here's a hot news flash: That's a lot different from saying that
    there's only one tune and it sucks.

    But is shredding a genre? I thought "Heavy Metal" was a genre. Or
    Country, Bluegrass, Blues, Classical, or Rockabilly. I thought shredding
    was more of a style or technique of guitar playing.

    So if shredding isn't referring to playing an instrument at a blinding
    speed, then what is it? Enlighten me.  Because when I think of
    shredders, I think of Satriani, Via, MacAlpine, and too often Eric
    Johnson and Steve Morse. I think I know when I'm listening to somebody
    shred.

    And, db, just because I like and appreciate blues doesn't make me a
    "blueser", whatever that is. I like to listen to (and play) lots of
    stuff.

    --Ron

    >re .32
    >
    >yeah, but for every Mozart or Paganini there were 10,000 guys whose
    >stuff really WAS crap that also got criticized. So what's the point?
    
    Point is -- history has shown that a lot of quality music has been
    labeled "crap" and written off by those who a) have a limited musical
    scope b) can't understand it c) have musical paradygms and don't want
    to even try to understand it d) feel threatened by that which is
    unfamiliar to them e) all of the above!

    
    	Ron, I'd not label myself, Brian Rost, Rick Calcagni, and many
    	others in here as "bluesers" either.  db's perspective from
    	above must be fuzzy.
    
    	Sure wish I had the intelligence to get into this music!
    
    	Elmore Orless
    

Prince: "No, Wolfgang, I don't like it.  It has too many notes." 

Was Mozart a shredder?

Jim

    yeah, and it seems too much stuff gets (wrongly imo) interpreted as
    personal attacks in here.  Go back and read .22 and think about it;
    seriously.

>Was Mozart a shredder?

    I own quite a few recordings of Mozart's music. He was perhaps the most
    brilliant composer in the history of mankind. He was anything but a
    shredder. I can't even fathom why his name is being bandied about here.

    By the way, just because a guy that wrote a Broadway play put that line
    about "too many notes" in it hardly means that (1) it was ever actually
    uttered and (2) made it true about Mozart's symphony.

    I have ears. Mozart only used the notes that he needed. :^)

    --Ron

    re: Buck
    
    I find it interesting that Paganini is one of your examples.  His music
    is still to this day appreciated mainly by musicians.  It's very hard
    to find recordings of his stuff (perhaps sheet music is easier, I never
    looked for it).  It never reached the mainstream audience that Bach,
    Handel, Mozart, and others did.
    
    Greg

    Ron,
    
    To set the context here, I'll remind you that my major point (as stated
    several times now) is that most of what's said about "shredding"
    applies to blues.
    
    With that in mind:
    
>    You're welcome, but I was critiquing shredding as a practice and giving
>    specific reasons why I find it limiting. 
    
    And I have given reasons why I think it could be reasonably said that
    blues is limiting?  Whether or not it's "one song" or "one chord
    progression" there is an overwhelming amount of it that uses that
    chord progression, and that does fall into a limited category of
    lyrical topics, etc. etc.
    
    By the metrics of volume and tempo dynamics, yes many examples of
    shredding can be said to be limited.
    
    By the metrics of lyrical content and chord progression, many examples
    of blues can be said to be limited.
    
    At this point, I'd invite you to re-read the first paragraph of this
    reply.
    
    > I wasn't merely bashing it.    Did I say that shredding sucks? 
    
    Did I say you were bashing it?   Did I say that the blues sucks?
    
    >No. I said  that I found it severely limiting. Too limiting. For me,
    >music, to fullfill it's purpose, needs to be dynamic in every
    >dimension.
    
    Allow me to paraphrase:
    
    	"No, I said that I found it [the blues] severely limiting.  Too
    	limiting.  For me, music, to fulfill it's purpose, needs to be 
    	dynamic in every dimension including lyrical content, scale/mode,
    	chord progression, licks, etc."
    
    At this point, I'd invite you to re-read the first paragraph of this
    reply.

>    So if shredding isn't referring to playing an instrument at a blinding
>    speed, then what is it? Enlighten me.  Because when I think of
>    shredders, I think of Satriani, Via, MacAlpine, and too often Eric
>    Johnson and Steve Morse.
    
    And on every album I have of every one of these guys, they all have
    ssssslow tunes, ...fast tunes,  quiet tunes,  LOUD tunes.
    
    You are absolutely write to label these guys as shredders, but the
    point is that a) they don't "all sound alike" to people (like me)
    who are fortunate enough to appreciate the genre and b) they don't
    all play fast all the time.

    Now, I may seem smug when I say that we are "fortunate" enough to like
    the genre so let me explain that:  I truly wish I could appreciate
    EVERY kind of music there is.  I view it as unfortunate that I can't
    because the more music you can appreciate, the more there is for you
    to enjoy and enrich yourself with.
    
    	db

    
    	Looks like the definition of "shredding" is going the same way as
    the definition of "the blues". The people who like it define it
    differently than those who don't.
    
    	I'd say that BOTH points of view are correct...
    
    	Shredding at it's worst is speed and volume at the expense of all
    else. Shredding at it's best is speed and overall "flash" used to
    augument the song it's played over. 
    
    	It's inappropriate to define shredding by its lowest common
    denominator; it's also not right to define shredding by only it's
    best attributes and ignore all the hackers out there. Just like
    the blues-- for every B.B. King, Albert Collins and Stevie Ray Vaughan
    there's some band butchering "Johnny B. Goode" for the umpteenth time
    in some bar somewhere.
    
    	I'm just one of those people that's not particularly motivated
    or excited by most "shredding". Nor have I ever supported the concept
    of guitar slinging like it's the "Gunfight At The OK Corral"-- the
    whole "cutting Heads" concept, music as competition. I'm just not
    interested in competing with anyone, I'm not interested in being
    "better" than anyone or being judged in comparison with anyone else.
    I've always felt that those "Battle Of The Bands" shows were
    detrimental to the local music scenes and to the cooperative spirit
    of music in general. One of the things like about these casual jams
    we have is the "teamwork", the feeling of sharing and contributing,
    rather than everyone trying to "one-up" each other & show how awesome
    they are. 
    
    
    Brad
      

>    To set the context here, I'll remind you that my major point (as stated
>    several times now) is that most of what's said about "shredding"
>    applies to blues.

    I seriously don't see how anything that I said about shredding can be
    applied to blues. If you don't like blues very much, fine. You have your
    reasons. But no way can't you substitute the term "blues" for "shred" in
    any of the statements that I made. The suggestion is ludicrous.

>    And I have given reasons why I think it could be reasonably said that
>    blues is limiting?  Whether or not it's "one song" or "one chord
>    progression" there is an overwhelming amount of it that uses that
>    chord progression,...

    So what? There's an overwhelming amount of it that doesn't too. Fact is,
    there's an overwhelming amount of music under the "blues" umbrella.

>    ...and that does fall into a limited category of lyrical topics,etc. etc.

    That's total nonesense. I find no limit on the topics found in blues
    lyrics. What is it you want people to sing about, anyway? Getting
    Windows NT on their 486?    Right, maybe there is a limit.

    Because there's a lot of crap that gets played in local bars and is
    referred to as "blues" and because what you've said can be applied to
    THAT, doesn't mean that your assertion applies to the real meat and
    potatoes of the genre. You are sighting bad examples as typical.

>    By the metrics of lyrical content and chord progression, many examples
>    of blues can be said to be limited.

    Chord progression? You're going back to those bad examples where
    everything is a 12 bar progression. You need to hear what Paul
    Butterfield's band and the Electric Flag did. And what Robert Cray does
    now. There's no limit on chord progression. Unless you believe there is.
    Cray comes up with new ones all the time.

>    You are absolutely write to label these guys as shredders, but the
>    point is that a) they don't "all sound alike" to people (like me)

    Whoa, I never EVER said that they sound alike.
    
>    b) they don't all play fast all the time.

    So, then they don't shred all the time. Good for them.

    db, I so own a Dregs album and several Eric Johnson albums and a Joe
    Satriani album and I appreciate a lot of what they do. My point is that
    when these guys take it to the limit and pin the speed meter, after a
    while, the music get less and less interesting. When they play against
    the rail for extended periods of time, it gets boring fast, like when
    Whitney Houston sings loud from the songs opening bars to the end.

    If you ask me, I like shredders a lot more than you like bluesers.

    --Ron

>What is it you want people to sing about, anyway? Getting
>    Windows NT on their 486?  
    
    
    I got them four-eighty-six blues this mornin
    Yeah, I got the lowdown four-eighty-six blues 
    Tried to run micro soft en tee
    but there's enough memory for it to cruise
    .
    .
    .
     

    Reply # 45 !!!!!!!!!
    (I thought I would break up the tension)
    
    How did we get on the BLOOZ (hint hint) I thought this was about
    progressive music vs self-indulgence.
    
    I personally love the blues also. I am starting to nurture and grow my
    blues collection. I also love loud obnoxious heavy metal. But I also
    enjoy jamming to Rachmaninov, and Paganini. But then I slide over to
    Jimmy Buffet, Martha and the Vandellas, and Crosby, Stills, Nash.
    
    I don't think that any particular music style is better than any other,
    each one is appropriate to my mood for that moment.
    
    But I think we might want to look to return to the topic of this note
    and leave the BLOOZ and shredding aside. Yea or Nay?
    
    Chris
    

     
    re: .28
    >I absolutely did not intend to be the least bit condescending.
    
    >I just thought "if playing the blues makes you happy" was a funny
    >pun.  I shouldn't need to explain that but just in case, the humor
    >in it is that "the blues" of course is supposed to be a "sad" thing
    >so the idea of doing that making you happy seemed humourous.
    
    Dave,
    
    You won't believe this but I roared through your original note at top
    speed (more "shredding" than "reading"!) and didn't even notice the pun
    till I re-read it this morning. So, fine, if you say it wasn't meant
    to be condescending, that's good enough for me. My initial reaction was
    that your comment was of the "whatever rows your boat" variety (to coin
    a good American expression).
    
    Actually, I don't think I've got much more to offer on the subject.
    Suffice to say that I believe these "discussion" topics (2845 and 2847)
    are as worthy of their place in GUITAR as topics on (say) home
    recording and audience reaction - if not more so, given that Guitar
    Player recently dedicated a whole edition to the blues vs. shredding
    thing.
    
    Perhaps if we want to be really constructive, each camp should
    recommend 10 albums that might (hopefully) change the other camp's
    mindset about blues/progressive music. That is, 10 blues albums that
    illustrate the variety that is possible within the blues idiom, and 10
    progressive albums to illustrate that progressive artists do endeavour
    to play with the audience in mind.
    
    It probably won't make a hapeth of difference, but it might be an
    interesting exercise!
    
    Dom 

    RE: .48
    It's about time! I agree 1000% with you Larry and since folks have been
    poking shots at me...  let me say that "it is what you make it". If you
    don't like something that's fine, if you do, then that's cool too!
    Welcome to a country where it's OK to disagree. Personally I couldn't
    care less what opinions folks have "on this subject" because it's one
    where folks are not going to come to complete agreement. And that's OK!
    Progressive music has in the past defined as "music you like, but don't
    understand". Take "Weather Report" as more cutting edge/progressive jazz.
    Take Frank Zappa as progressive rock. ELP Progressive? You got to be
    kidding right? I personally don't care for shredders because after the 
    first 3 tunes, you've already played all your tricks! Where do you go from 
    there? I like blues, I like rock, I like ALL forms of music (I listen 
    occationally to some metal shredders just to remind myself why I don't 
    care for it, BUT THAT'S MY CHOICE AND MY DECISION and why should it 
    concern *anyone* else??? I don't get it? This was a topic of debate
    back when I was in High School (The Buckster was still in diapers then
    and probably listening to Lawerance Welk on the radio) I personally 
    couldn't care less whether anyone agrees with me or not. It's all "personal
    taste". Lastly, I find these types of notes boring and completely pointless.
    It's like the folks in the "Da Blooze" note saying that all blues is the 
    same. Give me a break, open the door and get a life will ya? It is what 
    you make it! That's like saying that all shredders are the same, all 
    progressive guitarists or bands are the same. All cars are the same,
    all houses are the same, all bridges are the same! After all the replies 
    in both of these notes, it's truly time to get off the brused ego seats and 
    get on with life! 
    
    One more thing, after playing professionally and semi-professionally for 
    the past *23* years; if you think playing "__enter_your_most_boring_style_
    here_" is boring, then you'll come across to everyone else listening to you 
    as boring too! Give every tune you play 1000% even if you HATE IT!
    Anything less goes under the "why bother play music at all note" plus
    it's a slap in the face to the people who are paying money to hear to
    play. To be honest, I wouldn't want to play in a band with you either...  
    not if you're not going to give it your all. So what, big deal, who
    cares right? What you are doing "in general" is wasting everybody's
    time, including your own. Get a life, play it like you mean it, accept
    that others won't always see eye to eye with you and get on with it!
    
    'nuf said!
    	      Fred
    
    
    P.S. If anyone from corporate was looking for a reason to kill non-
         business related notes, all they'd have to do is look at all this
         wasted time on these *2* notes alone and they'd probably pull the 
         plug on it.

    re: Greg
    
    >I find it interesting that Paganini is one of your examples.  His music
    >is still to this day appreciated mainly by musicians.  It's very hard
    >to find recordings of his stuff (perhaps sheet music is easier, I never
    >looked for it).  It never reached the mainstream audience that Bach,
    >Handel, Mozart, and others did.
    
    Your latter statement may be true, but the first one is not.  In fact,
    many musical themes from Paganini were taken by other composers and
    used as the basis for their own compositions.  Even modern composer
    Andrew Lloyd Weber recently released HIS own version of "Variations on
    a Theme by Paganini".

    Like I said in Da Blooz note;
    
    You either like (fill in the blank) or you don't.  Any discussion
    beyond that turns into squirrel spooge. Let's post a note tommorrow on
    the Perot/Gore debate and see if we can gett 2000 replies that prove we
    all have varying opinions.  It's ok to like what you like, you DON'T
    HAVE TO DEFEND IT!
    
    Yeah, yeah, I know....Clapton sux, right?
    
    8)

    
    	geez, Fred - that was pretty long winded for someone who couldn't
    	care less.  Let's see, looks like you don't want to play with
    	db anymore, since you guys do lots of blues and he's bored with
    	it.  
    
    	You can go back to your equipment notes now.  But thanks for
    	telling us the discussion's over.  
    	
    	Sheesh
    

    I thought this music/guitar/etc stuff was supposed to be fun........
    
    8)

    Hey, notice how much like MUSIC NOTES this place has gotten in the last
    week???  I think it's all Lale and Lorne's fault!
    
    :-)

    
    	At least we're talking about MUSIC, for a change.  I agree
    	with most of Fred's note, as far as liking whatever floats
    	your boat.  Didn't mean to snap about it.
    
    	Tom_who'd_love_to_BE_ABLE_to_shred...
    
    

    You're not letting Edd off the hook are you? Talk about hit and run.
    Hey Edd? EDD!? NOW SEE WHAT YOU'VE GONE AND DONE?! AND WHEN IS IT GOING
    TO END, WHEN WE'RE ALL DEAD?!

    <slap>

    sorry. I got carried away.

    
    	I suppose I'm as guilty as anyone as far as these 2 blues &
    progressive ratholes go... I've posted more than my share of replies.
    But I'm not out to change anybody's mind, I'm not out to defend the
    Blues, I'm not out to trash Progressive Rock. I'm not out to prove
    any points...
    
    	I just find that discussing these opinions helps ME... it helps
    me to hear other opinions, to try to see things from different
    perspectives. Even better than that, it helps me to define MY point
    of view better-- it makes me think deeper about the things I like,
    the things I don't like, and why I feel that way. When I'm "debating"
    the relative values of "blues vs. progressive", I end up digging deeper
    into my feelings and it helps me to see more clearly why I hold certain
    opinoins; often times it helps me rediscover why I love certain aspects
    of music so much. And all these things help me to be a better player.
    
    	It's not much different to me that debating "Strats vs. Les Pauls";
    some people prefer one, some the other. I prefer Strats. But why?
    I could just say "Because..." (just like my mother used to say), but
    the more I discuss it, the more I start to understand exactly why I
    feel that way. And by discovering (or often rediscovering) that, it
    makes it easier to get the sound I want, it helps me the next time
    I'm making a decision about buying a guitar, and it just generally
    makes me feel better about why I like that Strat sound in the first
    place.
    
    	If you substitute the word "blues" for the word "Strat" in the
    paragraph above, it still pretty much makes sense, and that's what
    I've gained out of the "Blooz" topic. For the most part, that "rathole"
    has been a positive experience for me, rather than a bummer, 'cause
    it's helped me rediscover why I love that music so much. It's easy
    to forget why & how much something means to you; every chance to
    rekindle that passion is a welcome opportunity.
    
    	It's true that nothing's gained when the discussion gets too
    personal. But I think we've kept an even keel in both of these
    topics and kept the discussions pretty much on target.
    
    
    Brad  

    > Talk about hit and run.
    
    Sorry folks, but there's about 200 Digital partners in a training
    seminar who desired my presence more than the GUITAR crowd. (Hmmm, I
    suspect there may be a tribe of hummus eating Sasquatch in Zimbabwe
    who desire my presence more than this crowd...)
    
    Edd

    I think the opinion sharing is OK, even healthy sometimes (in support
    of Brad)....I just hate it when it drones on repetitively or gets into
    personal jabs.  It's totally useless however, if your'e trying to
    change someone else's mind.  But there I go sharing *my* unsolicited 
    opinion....and who gives a kangaroo kake what *I* think?
    
    8)
    
    dawg (who has tentative plans to re-appear at Stormy Monday's on 11/29)

>    Sorry folks, but there's about 200 Digital partners in a training

    Oh, ssssssuuuuuurrrrrrrreeeeee. Fine. Use your JOB as an excuse!

    :^)

>>    To set the context here, I'll remind you that my major point (as stated
>>    several times now) is that most of what's said about "shredding"
>>    applies to blues.

>    I seriously don't see how anything that I said about shredding can be
>    applied to blues. If you don't like blues very much, fine. You have your
>    reasons. But no way can't you substitute the term "blues" for "shred" in
>    any of the statements that I made. The suggestion is ludicrous.
    
    Note that I said "most of what's said", which goes beyond merely what
    you said.  Let's go thru it.
    
    1) Shredding all sounds the same.  There's no dynamics, etc.
    
    Well, it's no more true that there's no dynamics in shredding than
    it is to say that all blues are a particular progression. 
    
    It can be reasonably said that variations on a handful of progressions
    accounts for a sizeable part of "the blues".   It can also be said
    that "how bad life is" accounts for an overwhelming percentage of
    blues lyrical content.  It can be said that many blues licks are
    reused over and over again.
    
    Thus, using the same limited view of the blues that some people apply
    to shredding, it can equally be said the blues all sounds the same.
    
    2) Shredding is limited.
    
    Once again, the blues tends to be in 6/8 or 4/4, licks tend to be only
    in the blues scale, the instrumentation is generally the same, they
    generally stick to the chorus/verse/bridge form, and all the other
    things I've mentioned about lyrical content, progressions etc., etc.
    
    Shredders play in many time sigs (often many in one song), don't stick
    to one compositional form, play in many modes (often invent new ones),
    lots of different instrumentation, etc. etc.
    
    Thus, the statement that blues is limited seems far better than
    defensible.  Especially when compared to "progressive".  Ironically
    the very definition of progressive implies breaking out of the rules
    and limitations.
    
    OK, we'll leave it with those two for starters.
    
    Now, PLEASE understand/remember that it is not really my intention to
    claim that the blues is "limited" or "all sounds the same".  Again
    my purpose is to demonstrate that most of what's said about "shredding"
    and "progressive" can be reasonably said of the blues.
    
    	db

    re: Buck

>    >I find it interesting that Paganini is one of your examples.  His music
>    >is still to this day appreciated mainly by musicians.  It's very hard
>    >to find recordings of his stuff (perhaps sheet music is easier, I never
>    >looked for it).  It never reached the mainstream audience that Bach,
>    >Handel, Mozart, and others did.
>    
>    Your latter statement may be true, but the first one is not.  In fact,
>    many musical themes from Paganini were taken by other composers and
>    used as the basis for their own compositions.  Even modern composer
>    Andrew Lloyd Weber recently released HIS own version of "Variations on
>    a Theme by Paganini".
    
    So...you don't consider composers to be musicians?

    re: Rick
    
>    Hey, notice how much like MUSIC NOTES this place has gotten in the last
>    week???  I think it's all Lale and Lorne's fault!
    
    ...and they weren't even involved with these discussions!
     
    Neat trick!
               
    ;^)
    
    Greg

    Seems to me that The Blues is more than the ability to play notes.
    Simply put, what makes blues-doodz 'good' is their ability to add
    emotion to basically simple patterns.  I mean, in what other kind
    of music could you sit there and play a lead instrument and 'shake'
    the crap out of *a* note for 16 measures and have a crowd *WIGGING
    OUT*??
    
    This is not to say that 'shredders' have any less emotion than the 
    blues types, but they certainly go about displaying the emotional
    root differently.  A bunch of metal heads are apt to be much more
    emotionally 'into it' to see some display of technical talent
    (arpegiated modes, time changes etc...) than to see a player wring 
    every last drop of energy out of a note.
    
    Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I like both styles and wish I could 
    do either some sort of justice.
    
    jc (Just spoutin' off...)

    	>I mean, in what other kind
        >of music could you sit there and play a lead instrument and 'shake'
        >the crap out of *a* note for 16 measures and have a crowd *WIGGING
        >OUT*??
    
    Why thanx, Coop   8)
    
    >Whatever floats your boat, I guess. I like both styles and wish I could 
    >do either some sort of justice.
    
    Don't sell yerself short bud.  I can remember you havin' a crowd
    screwing themselves into the ceiling with your lix and your antics at
    Shooters; more than once.  Hell, you even grabbed a book of matches off
    the stage rail and played SLIDE one night; *I* was impressed!
    
    dawg

    (I re-editted this reply)

    First, I'll only defend my own words which are to the effect that
    "shredding" "is" "self-indulgent" (RE ,25). I also added in a later
    reply that by it's nature shredding limits one's range of expression
    because of its limited use of time. And, I said, it's often played at
    mega volume and doesn't use loudness dynamics which limits one's range
    of expression even more.

    That's what I said. About shredding. Not progressive music.

    Who, if anyone, said progressive music was limited? Some may may feel as
    I do that in many cases what passes as progressive music is filled with
    changes for the sake of changes (and I'm thinking of not just
    progressive rock, but new-age and a lot of real weird junk by classical
    composers of this century). In those cases I might consider that to be
    self-indulgent. But I might just pass it off as a badly disjointed
    composition that should have been chucked.

    But I, me, never said that progressive music is limited. That would be a
    silly thing to say. Very silly.

                                        Ron

    RE: Bulldawg 
    
    Thanks man...  I'm in a rut, and I'm feelin' sorry for myself.
    :-)
    
    Did I really do it with a book of matches??  I remember stealing
    some womens shoe and (attempting) to play slide, but a book of 
    matches?
    
    If I can do any of that blues stuff at all, it's YOUR fault.
    :-)

    re: .65
    
    > First, I'll only defend my own words which are to the effect that
    > "shredding" "is" "self-indulgent"
    
    Here you are supposing motives for why people play like they do.
    
    Just because you can't imagine any other motive for shredding than
    "self-indulgence" doesn't mean that IS the motive.  
    
    And it's just plain silly.  Clearly people get something more than
    "self indulgence" out of shred music because if that were true, the
    only people who would listen to it is the guy playing it. 
    
    Y'know, at the very first DECjam there was a band that played some
    pretty flashy stuff (btw, I played that DECjam, but was NOT in the
    band I'm speaking of).  One ex-GUITAR noter was really ripped by this
    and (behind their backs) was telling people that the flashy band did
    this to stroke their egos.
    
    No matter how I pleaded with him, he could NOT believe there was any
    other possible reason.  I told him that I knew these guys and this is
    the music they all listened to and why was it so hard for him to
    believe that they would want to do this music merely because they loved
    it and its what they LISTENED to?
    
    I'm now in a progressive rock band, and I hear that all the time.
    But this is the music I love.  I've got hundreds of records in the
    genre.  It's both unfair and insulting to me when people (as they do
    from time to time) ascribe ego motives without even knowing me, or
    why I do this.  I love this kind of music.  Why is it so hard to
    believe that that is my only reason for doing it?
    
    > I also added in a later reply that by it's nature shredding limits
    > one's range of expression because of its limited use of time. And, I
    > said, it's often played at mega volume and doesn't use loudness
    > dynamics which limits one's range of expression even more.
    
    Sigh... how many times are we going to go thru this?
    
    OK, let me paraphrase yet again:
    
    	"the blues limits one's range of expression because of its limited
    	 use of chords, progressions, scales/modes, lyrical content,
    	 instrumentation, etc."
    
    Shredders tend to use a lot more chords, progressions, scales/modes, 
    lyrical themes, instrumentation, etc. than blues.
    
    So that makes shredding less limited than blues right Ron?
    
    Again, the point is that you:
    
    	a) define "limited" by a set of particular things.  These things
    	   that YOU consider important make shredding seem "limited".
    
    	   However, there are other reasonable "sets of particular things"
    	   I could very reasonably use that would make the blues seem
    	   "limited".
    
    	   Once again, what's said about shredding, can be reasonably said
    	   about the blues.
    
    	b) You're wrong about "shredding" being limited in those things.
    
    	   Aside perhaps from speed metal, it's hard for me to think of
    	   any shredders album that does not contain a much wider set
    	   of those dynamics you have chosen than most blues albums.
    
           You don't think the "Surfing with the Alien" album or "High
    	   Tension Wires" contains more dynamics than any B.B. King
    	   album?  These albums go from slow to fast, soft to loud,
    	   intense to loose, acoustic to electric, whole notes to 
    	   32nd notes, etc. etc. etc. etc.
    

    
    Was Jaco Pastorius self-indulgent because of his technique ? Jimi
    Hendrix ? 
    
    For that matter, what's the difference between 'flamboyant' and
    'self-indulgent' ? 
    
    PEter
    

.68>Was Jaco Pastorius self-indulgent because of his technique ? Jimi
.68>Hendrix ?

    Just the opposite. They were both extremely expressive. Their playing
    was loaded with dynamics. I can't imaging why you would bring them up in
    this discussion.
    
.68>For that matter, what's the difference between 'flamboyant' and
.68>'self-indulgent' ?

    To my thinking 'self-indulgent' is playing predominantly for one's one
    amuzement, rather than telling a story abstractly through a musical
    idiom.

                            Ron

    'flamboyant'---play like Fred Abatelli
    
    'self-indulgent'--play like Dave Blickstein
    
    
    Ow, just kidding!!!  one million 8^)
    
    							Brian

    >Did I really do it with a book of matches??  I remember stealing
    >some womens shoe and (attempting) to play slide, but a book of 
    >matches?
    
    It's been awhile; might have been some woman's leg, actually!  8)
    
    >If I can do any of that blues stuff at all, it's YOUR fault.
    
    How can I look myself in the mirror each day.....
    
    8)
    
    

    flamboyant:== I wanna do that!
    
    self-indulgent:== I don't wanna do that!
    
    Edd

    flamboyant:== that new neon green guitar strap with matching socks and
    necktie
    
    self-indulgent:== 2 boxes of Do-si-dos Girl Scout (tm) cookies and a
    quart of ice cold milk!
    
    (burp)

    
    I apologize to any Hendrix and Jaco fans, (I am both) as I met no
    offense, but only brought them up to prove a point.
    
    I know a couple of folks (I'll bring 'em in here and we can beat 'em to
    a pulp) who consider both 'excessive', and I'll interpret that to mean
    'self-indulgent'. They are both musicians, BTW. 
    
    One of them thinks that because Jaco's version of 'Donna
    Lee' is an almost note-for-note transcription of an alto sax solo (an
    admittedly more facile instrument than the bass) Jaco's interpretation
    of it falls into the realm of 'showboating' or pretentiousness. I
    happen to think that it was a combination of 'I have the technique, so
    why the hell -shouldn't- I play it ?' and wanting to expand the
    repertoire of the instrument a bit, i.e. 'hey--Charlie Parker solos -are-
    playable on this thing, and it don't sound that bad--listen !'
    
    The only thing is that I can't say for sure that that was the
    intention. And my friend cannot say for sure that his interpretation
    was Jaco's intention. And so it is for any music. Unless you can get
    into someone's head and determine if an effort is honest, or get that
    person to say 'yeah, I was just jackin' around', you don't know -what-
    he or she was trying to do. 
    
    I remember reading a note that RIck Calcagni entered somewhere a long
    time ago about Victor Bailey -while he was with the Randy Brecker
    group, I think- performing a solo version of 'Birdland', all the parts,
    on a 5-string. I'm sure every bassist in the audience was slack-jawed.
    I know I would have been.
    But I'm sure there were some folks who might have muttered under their
    breath something about Vic being carried away with himself, despite the
    fact that it was meant as a tribute. It went over their heads.
    
    Edd said it best. "Flamboyant" is something I wanna do.
    "Self-indulgence" is something I don't wanna do. Just as long as it
    stays 'I' and not 'you' is the most important part. When I want your
    opinion, I'll listen for it, and I'll listen to it. Just don't stick me
    with it.
    
    So. Brian. You -really- got that worked up over a Nice tune ? X^)
    
    Peter
    
    PS: I'm stuck in PKO for a week of training. Anyone know where I can
    find a bar featuring a progressive-thrash-blues band with a mellotron
    and a kick-ass bass player ? I'll return the favor if any of you visit
    Seattle.

    RE: Jaco and shredders; self-indulgent or showoffs

    First, so everyone's clear on what I mean when I say "shredding".
    shredding: playing blindingly fast for extended periods of time like
    Steve Via does.

    I've heard plenty of jazz players that masturbate on their instrument.
    But I don't count Jaco among them. And I don't think that there's
    anything wrong with showboating, as long as a musician's primary
    objective is making music. Jaco had great technique, but more
    importantly, he had a great sense of time and melody. He did more than
    spray the air with staccoto notes. He created musical phrases. He used
    his technique to support his musical ideas. That's what separates great
    musicians from people that just play lots of notes. Melody. Phrasing.
    Key ingredients of jazz.

    When I hear modern shredders, I find these elements lacking. Remember
    the Federal Express commercials with the guy that talked super fast?
    Well, I really don't think too many folks would want him to read to
    them. But it was entertaining for a short time, until the novelty wore
    off.


    RE: blues vs. progressive music

    First, I have nothing against progressive rock. It's just that not much
    of it appeals to me. This is a rebuttle of the "blues is too limiting"
    argument.

    I guess that the thing that I don't buy is the notion that there is a
    relationship between the number of chord combinations, modes, etc.
    available in a genre and the the players range of musical expression.

    In these kinds of terms, the difference between blues and other musical
    forms is merely incremental, like the difference between what can be
    done with a 88 note keyboard verses a 60 note keyboard. Brother Jack
    McDuff can't be as expessive on his 61 note Hammond keyboard as say
    McCoy Tyner can be on his 88 note grand piano? I think he can.
    Yet dynamics are fundamentally necessary to musical expression. Limited
    dynamics really does limit expression.

    So, am I saying that progressive music isn't expressive? NO! I'm saying
    that the blues form doesn't limit someone's expression just because it
    provides a simpler framework.

    But I think I'll bail out of this debate now. I've really said my piece.
    Bye bye. See you'all in a lighter topic. I hope.

                                            Ron

    re: Edd, Peter, etc
    
>	"Flamboyant" is something I wanna do.
>	"Self-indulgence" is something I don't wanna do. 
    
    I don't see anything wrong with self-indulgence as long as it's still
    interesting and people enjoy hearing it.  I've heard Billy Corgan's
    (Smashing Pumpkins) playing described as "self indulgant" and
    "masterbation" several times, but I still enjoy listening to him, and I
    know many others that also do.  
    
    As Peter mentioned, I've heard many people describe Jimi Hendrix in
    similar terms.  Face it, those feedback-dripping 10+ minute versions of
    "Machine Gun" and "Changes" are hardly concise!  Is it any less self
    indulgent because people liked it?
    
    I think of it this way...
    
    Pretty much any solo I take could be self-indulgent, because I suck. 
    BUT, I still enjoy playing 'em, and I still do it, for not other reason
    then because I want to.  Sometimes someone else hears it and likes it,
    sometimes not. If not, well I'm not gonna get all torn up about
    it...(unless I don't like it either).  The bottom line is that I play
    what I play and it's bad enough that if I let everyone who didn't like
    it get me all upset I'd never play again.  While me quitting might make
    someone somewhere happy, but it wouldn't make me happy.  I love playing
    music so, despite the fact that I'm not particularly good at it, I
    can't quit.  It's just something I have to do.
    
    Greg
                                      

>    First, so everyone's clear on what I mean when I say "shredding".
>    shredding: playing blindingly fast for extended periods of time like
>    Steve Via does.
    
    There maybe a few tunes on each "shredder" album that's like that.
    
    But to me to say that playing a whole tune at warp speed is somehow
    limiting or bad or unmusical or whatever, is just as silly as saying
    that playing a whole song at a slow speed is limiting.
    
    Speed DOES convey emotion.  It conveys excitement and energy.  It
    does get boring if every song on a 60 minute CD is an endless barrage
    of that, but aside from the "speed metal" genre I can't think of one
    album like that, certainly none by the guys that have been mentioned
    here.
    
>    First, I have nothing against progressive rock. It's just that not much
>    of it appeals to me. 
    
    Indeed, that is ALL you actually have against "progressive rock".
    
    However, you have said more than that.
    
>    I guess that the thing that I don't buy is the notion that there is a
>    relationship between the number of chord combinations, modes, etc.
>    available in a genre and the the players range of musical expression.
    
    I once again remind you of my purpose here (what's said about ___ can
    also be said about ___).
    
    So, back into paraphrasing mode:
    
    	"I guess that the thing that I don't buy is the notion that 
         there is a relationship between the number of notes you play
    	 or the tempo and the expressiveness and quality of the music."
    
    To me, you often sound like the King in "Amadeus":  "I don't like it...
    it's got...  too many notes."
    
    I know more buy that the absence of variation in tempo makes it
    limiting than you buy that the absence of much variation in modes,
    chord combinations, etc. makes the blues limiting.
    
    Since you're leaving I hope you realize that I regard the statements
    you've made to debunk the notion that blues is "limiting" as quite
    reasonable.  What I want you to realize is that the point I'm trying
    to make is that VERY similar arguments can be used to debunk your
    notions about shredding.

    	db

    Victor Bailey did the solo Birdland on 4 STRING!  So I guess that
    makes it even more self-indulgent :-)  Actually, there was very
    obviously an element of "showmanship" in what he was doing, but that
    didn't really detract from it.  If you think about it, all live music
    involves some form of showmanship at one point or another; even turning
    your back on the audience (a la Miles) is a perverse form of this.
    (yeah, Miles was so cool he totally IGNORED US!).
    
    A recent GW interview (with Satch) on the (non)death of shred proposed
    Alvin Lee as one of the founders of modern day shredding.  Check out
    Woodchoppers Ball from "Undead" or Speed Kills (great title!) from
    "Stonehenge".  These were state-of-the-art speed playing at the time.
    I have to admit, old Ten Years After is a guilty pleasure for me; a lot
    of this stuff was indeed gratuitous, self-indulgent speed playing (but
    I like it, like it, yes I do...)
    
    Talk amongst yourselves; I'll give you a topic.  Mahavishnu Orchestra,
    self-indulgent?  Shredders?  Discuss...
    
    /wayne
    

>>    I guess that the thing that I don't buy is the notion that there is a
>>    relationship between the number of chord combinations, modes, etc.
>>    available in a genre and the the players range of musical expression.
    
>        So, back into paraphrasing mode:
    
>    	"I guess that the thing that I don't buy is the notion that 
>         there is a relationship between the number of notes you play
>    	 or the tempo and the expressiveness and quality of the music."
 
    Huh?  That paraphrase semms to lose the whole thing!  "number of chord
    combinations, modes, etc." does not equal "number of notes you play or
    the tempo"????!!!!   
    
    You can play just as fast over one chord as over twenty!
    
    I might also point out that although sticking to textbook harmony, the
    choice of notes for blues playing may seem restricted, rules are made
    to be broken and I've heard lots of "outside" playing over blues
    changes.
    
    							Bubba

    re: pedantic alert
    
>    To me, you often sound like the King in "Amadeus":  "I don't like it...
>    it's got...  too many notes."
    
    Wasn't it the competing composer that actually said that line (perhaps
    repeated by the king)?
    
    
    re: Rick (I think)
    
>    Talk amongst yourselves; I'll give you a topic.  Mahavishnu Orchestra,
>    self-indulgent?  Shredders?  Discuss...
    
    ...lost in space?
    
    gh

>    Huh?  That paraphrase semms to lose the whole thing!  "number of chord
>    combinations, modes, etc." does not equal "number of notes you play or
>    the tempo"????!!!!   
    
    Brian, raise your perspective a bit higher. 
    
    Ron says shredding is limited because it lacks variety in a particular
    set of things (tempo, phrasing, etc.)
    
    I'm saying blues is limited because it lacks variety in ANOTHER set
    of things.
    
    Are the things that Ron is citing a better definition of "variety"
    than the ones I am?
    
    It seems to me to be utterly baseless to say (for example) that lack of
    variety in "phrasing" makes something more "limited"  than (say) a lack
    of variety in (for example) "modes" (or time signatures, or lyrical
    content or...).
    
    I mean do you actually disagree with that?
    
    Ron has this myopic view that what constitutes variety in the blues
    genre is a good measure of variety in other genres.  
    
    Do you agree with that?
    
    I'm trying to demonstrate that measuring the blues by the metrics of
    other music forms would make the blues seem very limited.  Unlike Ron, I'm 
    not claiming that's a valid way to measure.
    
    This kind of myopic reasoning so many bluesers find shredding "limited"
    or "the same", and (yes) its always why shredders find blues "limited"
    or "all the same".
    
    	db

    'scuse me, but I refer to "limited in range of expression", which is not
    the same as just saying "limited" in some absolute sense. I would agree
    that all musical forms suffer certain limits, be they artificial or
    otherwise. I once saw a concert on public television that was the
    Siegal-Schwall Blues Band backed up be Arther Feidler and the Boston
    Pops. Ooooops. Not a pretty sight.

    db, I'm also not sure that I said some of the things that you're
    attributing to my replies. But I'm just tired of beating this all but
    dead horse.

Well, lessee now:

- Playing the same lick over and over is boring.

- Saying the same words over and over is boring.

- Repeating the same chord progression over and over is boring.


The ultimate bore:

Sampled loop of "G-L-O-R-I-A" endlessly repeated?


Bob (who is compelled to extract humor out of even long-dead horses)

>    But I'm just tired of beating this all but dead horse.
    
    That's right, Ron.  Stop beating this dead progressive music horse. 
    Dave and Buck will eventually figure out that nobody's into this stuff
    anymore and move on...
    
    Greg

    >  'scuse me, but I refer to "limited in range of expression", 
    >which is not the same as just saying "limited" in some absolute sense. 
    
    I don't see how that refinement changes anything.  
    
    I don't think saying that the blues is (paraphrasing again) "often
    played using only the 'blues scale/mode' which limits one's range of
    expression" is any less reasonable a statement than saying shreding is
    "often played at mega volume and doesn't use loudness dynamics which
    limits one's range of expression even more" (from .65).
    
    Once again (and forever), the same kind of reasoning you apply to 
    shredding can be applied to the blues.
    
    	db

>    I don't think saying that the blues is (paraphrasing again) "often
>    played using only the 'blues scale/mode' which limits one's range of
>    expression" is any less reasonable a statement than saying shreding is
>    "often played at mega volume and doesn't use loudness dynamics which
>    limits one's range of expression even more" (from .65).

    But I do, and that's where our opinions differ.

                                                Ron

    > But I do, and that's where our opinions differ.
    
    Characterizing it as a difference of opinion is the first thing you've
    said in a long while that I would agree with.
    
    It bothered me only when you present it as if it was a fact.
    
    Doesn't bother me that you would feel limited as a shredder.  I would
    definitely feel limited as a blues player.

    
    	If it ain't dead already - wanky wank, wank, wank, waaannnk...
    
    	Girl ya know the reason why...
    
    	db, I have no clue why you're beating this shred/blues thing
    	to death.  The blues playing of Bireli Lagrene, Pat Martino,
    	Barney Kessel - and they're playing drips with blues - is so
    	far from limiting it's ridiculous.  
    
    	Several of us haven't ranked on shredders at all - it's not
    	even an issue.  
    
    	If your idea of blues is just I-IV-V using a pentatonic scale,
    	then no one in here has a prayer of making you think differently.
    
    	Tom
    
    	

    This is from the note on Kenny Burrell.
    
    Anyway, this album is worth a listen if only to hear Kenny, known as
    a very sophisticated jazz player, ripping it up on what *sounds* like
    a solid body, distorted and humming, on four tracks of rockin' blues.
    
    OK, maybe it was just a session he did to pay the rent, but the
    playing is totally in character for the style, sloppy, noisy, "bad"
    notes, etc.  This is from 1957, when Burrell was already recording jazz
    albums.
    
    Just an example of a player stretching across stylistic boundaries
    without sounding condescending or out of place.
    
    
         <<< KDX200::DISK$KDX200_USER2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GUITAR.NOTE;2 >>>
                              -<  Guitar Notes  >-
================================================================================
Note 1446.7                       Kenny Burrell                          7 of 11
AQUA::ROST "Speak to dogs in French"                 16 lines  29-AUG-1989 16:27
                             -< Kenny the R&B Man >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    A fascinating record to hear is "Rib Joint" by Sammy Price, on Savoy. 
    It's a two record set of 50s proto-R&B by pianist Price that has an
    incredibly *greasy* Kenny Burrell on one LP and a down and dirty Mickey
    Baker (of guitar method fame) on the other LP plus King Curtis to boot.
    
    							Brian

>    	db, I have no clue why you're beating this shred/blues thing
>    	to death.  The blues playing of Bireli Lagrene, Pat Martino,
>    	Barney Kessel - and they're playing drips with blues - is so
>    	far from limiting it's ridiculous.  
    
    I agree.  Every bit as far from ridiculous as the notion that shredding
    is limited.
    
>    	Several of us haven't ranked on shredders at all - it's not
>    	even an issue.  
    
    And my notes are not directed towards those people.
    
>    	If your idea of blues is just I-IV-V using a pentatonic scale,
    
    Tom, you've missed a lot of my notes.  
    
    I no more believe that than I believe any of the nonsense that has
    been said about progressive/shredding/etc.
    	
    	db
    
    p.s. Last time I was in the record store, Birele Lagrene, Pat Martino
         and Barney Kessel were (along with Charlie Mingus whom you've also
         mentioned), without exception, found in the "jazz" bins,
    	 not the "blues" bins.
    
    	 Stuff can by "dripping with blues" without being "the blues".
    	 Perhaps you should regard their stuff as having blues origins
    	 but breaking free from the limitations of the blues.  ;-)

    Not trying to argue here, but I just want to REPEAT this point for the
    sake of fact.  "Goodbye Porkpie Hat", by Charlie Mingus, is a BLUES.
    Repeat that ten times please.  A BLUES.  This is Mingus's own words.
    He was there.  They were playing a BLUES in response to the death of
    Lester Young.  They were very sad about this.  They had the BLUES.
    Oh, did I mention this is a BLUES tune?
    
    Back in those days, there were no laws against jazz musicians playing
    a BLUES tune now and then.
    
    Thank you
    
    /rick

    
    	I've certainly skimmed your restated restate statements about
    	shredding, that's for sure.
    
    	Actually, Bireli was in the blues bin at Newbury Comics.  Blues
    	is a certain feeling and vibe to me.  The artists I mention have
    	that vibe and they're why I'm in this note.  
    
    	Tom
    

    Why are you guys talking about the blues in the "progressive" music
    note?  Get thee to the "Da Blooz" post haste!
    
    Greg (who was terribly self-indulgent at his jam last night, so this
          note is appropriate for this topic)

    Didn't Johnny Winter record an LP called "The Progressive Blues
    Experiment"?  What were the results?  8^)  8^)
    
    C'mon Greg, if you're gonna note here ya gotta get used to threads
    moving all over the place.  I'm surprised we haven't spilled into the
    Kitty Hawk note yet  8^)
    
    Hey, where's that trash-Mahavishnu note Rick was threatening?  
    
    						Jethro "Tull" Bodine

    This only further demonstrates my point.
    
    If you define or view "shredding" a certain way, it can seem limited.
    
    If you define or view "blues" a certain way, it can seem limited.
    
    > I've certainly skimmed your restated restate statements about
    >  shredding, that's for sure.
    
    Since you still think that I think that the blues is limited you must
    have missed the oh... half dozen or so notes where I've said that *I*
    personally don't really think the blues is limited (not to mention the
    one where Fred Abatelli who plays in my blues & R&B oriented band, a
    regular band at "Stormy Monday",  also said "Dave likes the blues").
    
    So, for a 7th time Tom, (all) I am saying is that the flawed and myopic
    reasoning (see earlier part of this note) that is used to say
    "shredding is limited" can be used to say "blues is limited".
    I'm not saying I believe that myself.
    
    >  	If your idea of blues is just I-IV-V using a pentatonic scale,
    >	then no one in here has a prayer of making you think differently.
    
    Not all blues is I-IV-V.
    
    Not all of what shredders do is "play fast".
    
    So Mr. Burati is saying that playing fast limits your expression.  
    Are you or Mr. Burati ready to agree that playing in I-IV-V using a
    pentatonic scale limits your expression?
    
    Again, the point is that the flawed reasoning can also be applied to
    the blues.
    
    	db

    I saw we ban the BLUES long before we trash NAFTA!
    ;')

re: band the blues

Obviously not a manufacturing employee....

dbii (who is)

    hah! got it!  first time!!!

Since my name keeps coming up:

        This is where we have a disconnect in terminology.
    
>    Not all of what shredders do is "play fast".

    I never said that all shredders do is play fast. And I never said that
    shredders have a limited range of expression. What I did say is that at
    those times that they shred, they sound to my ears, self-indulgent. I
    went on to explain why I thought that and in the course of that
    explanation I cited limited use of dynamics and phrasing to be a major
    factor in how shredding limits range of expression.

    I just listened to some Eric Johnson. The guy plays some beautiful
    stuff. But every time he shreds a line it jumps out at me that in the
    middle of all these nice phrases, he all of a sudden played a bunch of
    scales. That's how it sounds to me. Like there's a two-position switch
    on his back that says "music" and "scales" and every once in a while
    someone flips it to "scales" for a few seconds.

>    So Mr. Burati is saying that playing fast limits your expression.

    That's an over-simplification of my points.

>    Are you or Mr. Burati ready to agree that playing in I-IV-V using a
>    pentatonic scale limits your expression?

    Not me, at least not in any practical sense. The full range of human
    emotion can be easily expressed within the simplest musical forms, blues
    or otherwise.

                                    Ron (HELP! I can't get out of this loop!)

    Interestingly (if we can use that word with regards to this note :-)
    some of what Ron says strikes a familiar chord with me, specifically
    related to Steve Morse.  And honest db, I'm not bringing this up just to
    tweak you in some way.  Really.  But there's a thing that I've heard
    Morse do repeatedly that sounds just like what Ron describes re Eric
    Johnson.  Just this specific flurry of 32nd notes (maybe it's 64th notes);
    he uses it so often that I've come to think of it as a Morse signtaure
    lick.  Okay, you're gonna ask me for examples.  Well, I'm pretty sure
    he does it on "Cruise Missle".  I even recall hearing it in a couple
    of spots on the "High Tension Wires" CD.  But most of my Morse is on
    vinyl and my turntable's out-of-commission, so it's been a while.
    
    Thing is, a lot of times when I hear this riff, it sounds out of place.
    Like he couldn't think of a way out, so he just ripped on this riff
    again.  Anyway, that's my impression, and it reminds me of what Ron
    says about shredding.
    
    /rick

    
    	I READ ALL 100 OF 'EM ...someone remind me not to do that in
    here again.
    
    	I dunno, I see elements of "flamboyance" and "self-indulgance"
    in the flaunting of simply...what it takes to compose an argument
    here. The lists of bands, performers, venues, the qualitative and 
    quantitative aspects of music itself.
    
    	If it's such a bad thing to do in the context of music - then 
    why you doin' it in *this* context? 
    
    	Joe 

    OK... for the 99th time, bear in mind that my point is that the
    reasoning behind the shredding statements can be applied to the blues.
    
>    I never said that all shredders do is play fast. 
    
    OK, and I agree that not all blues is I-IV-V.
    
    > And I never said that shredders have a limited range of expression. 
    
    OK, and I will agree that the blues doesn't have a limited range of
    expression.
    
    > What I did say is that at those times that they shred, they sound to
    > my ears, self-indulgent. 
    
    What I will say is that when they DO play I-IV-V they sound alike
    to my ears.
    
    Which, is something you disagree with incidently:
    
>>    Are you or Mr. Burati ready to agree that playing in I-IV-V using a
>>    pentatonic scale limits your expression?

>    Not me, at least not in any practical sense. 
    
    And I'm not ready to say in any practical sense that shredding limits
    your range of expression any more than playing one chord pattern, I-IV-V.
    
    > I went on to explain why I thought that and in the course of that
    > explanation I cited limited use of dynamics and phrasing to be a major
    > factor in how shredding limits range of expression.
    
    And I said that limited use of the modes and chords is a major factor
    in how the blues limits range expression.
    
    	db

    Music == Music !
    
    	If it turns your wheels,fine.
    
    	If it dont, thats fine too.
    
    	Congratuliation Dawg on your first ton!!!!!
    P.K.

    > Bird lives
    
    Of course he "lives".  He didn't die, he just retired.
    
    But what's that got to do with music?
    
    ;-)
    
    	db

    Geez, Dave, you're in a rare mood today.
    
    I hope.  %^)
    
    Dave

    >Of course he "lives".  He didn't die, he just retired.
    >
    >But what's that got to do with music?
    
    Well, I just wanted to draw attention to what a strange word
    "progressive" is.
    
    8^)

.104> OK, and I agree that not all blues is I-IV-V.

    Glad to hear it.
    
.104> OK, and I will agree that the blues doesn't have a limited range of
.104> expression.
    
    Glad to hear it.
    
.104> What I will say is that when they DO play I-IV-V they sound alike
.104> to my ears.
    
    That's fine.
    
.104>Which, is something you disagree with incidently:

    I don't. Your ears are your business as far as I'm concerned. Everything
    Lawence Welk used to play sounded the same to my ears. That's because I
    didn't care about it so I wasn't really listening (I think we both agree
    on that phenomenon) but also because the arrangements made precious
    little use of dynamics. I would, however, never go so far as to say that
    he only played one song, which is basically a position that you took on
    blues:
2845.23> It is, basically one song with some different twists, and changing
2845.23> lyrics.

    Anyway, I'm glad that you have since conceded that particular point.

                                                Ron

>    I'm glad that you have since conceded that point.
    
    Ron, I didn't "concede" that point because I never held it.
    
    Thankfully, you seem to be the only person left in this notesfile who
    has yet to understand that that was offered as an example of what your
    kind of reasoning can produce.  You cling to this despite close to a
    half dozen  notes (not just from me) explaining that.
    
    Here's the most simple statement of the ONLY position I have taken
    in this note and it hasn't changed:
    
    	The claims you have made about shredding have the exact same 
        validity as the claims I forwarded about the blues.  
    
    The only position of mine which has changed is that I no longer believe
    there is any hope of you understanding why that is so.
    
    Clearly you will never understand the arguments I'm making to support
    the above "position" if you won't abandon your misconception that
    my position is something else ("the blues is one song", etc.).
    
    Have a nice weekend.
    
    	db

         <<< KDX200::DISK$KDX200_USER2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GUITAR.NOTE;2 >>>
                              -<  Guitar Notes  >-
================================================================================
Note 2845.23                        Da Blooz                           23 of 182
DREGS::BLICKSTEIN "DOS Boot"                         27 lines   3-NOV-1993 13:38
             -< Why I am not into the blues, by David Blickstein >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    You probably could've derived this from the note I just wrote in the
    Neil Young wars but... here's my take on the blues.
    
    The blues is a lot of fun to play now and then.  However, I can not
    possibly imagine how anyone could be in a strictly blues band and
    not get totally bored to death.
    
    It is, basically one song with some different twists, and changing
    lyrics.  My band does a fair amount of them.  Fred usually kicks them
    off, and I honestly often don't know which one we are doing until
    the lyric kicks in.  But, because I know "the blues song" I can do
    these.
    
    Ironically, I wonder how many blues fans out there dismiss rap as crap
    because it all sounds alike.   Hmmm....
    
    I can, in limited doses, really get into doing the blues.  Hey... it's
    a GREAT song, I guess that's part of why people get up at jams and such
    and play endless variations of this song.  But I can't imagine how
    anyone could play it even close to all the time.
    
    I guess part of why I find myself at odds with the blues is because my
    ear searches for something it hasn't heard before.  Sure, there's room
    for invention within the blues, but why limit yourself?
    
    I guess I just don't get the "zen" of the blues.  But I don't have to.
    

Scuse me?

    Dat should say RE: .106

    Ah, I understand now. I was just a bit startled by it.

                                Ron

re:           <<< Note 2847.112 by LEDS::BURATI "stompin at the savoy" >>>
>                       -< Yeah, I'm confused all right >-

Ron: 

DB's been deliberately pulling your leg to make a point.

-Hal

    Well, Hal, I'm not sure what's going on here anymore so I'll just drop
    it. (honestly, I'll really drop it. It's just that I kept seeing note
    with references to "Mr. Burati".) I expressed a personal opinion about
    how I felt about shredding (*not* shredders) back in .25 and it seems as
    though it was taken very personally by some here. I suppose I can
    understand that, which is why I reiterated that I'm not talking about a
    musical gengre or the general work of any people in particular but just
    a particular style of guitar playing.

    I certainly want no hard feelings. I never bashed, I tried my best to
    explain why I felt the way I did about something that some of my
    favorite guitarists (Johnson, Morse, Satch) do on occassion. Maybe my
    leg was being pulled and I didn't know it.

    Have a good one.

    --Ron

    > DB's been deliberately pulling your leg to make a point.
    
    Bingo!
    
    Ron, I don't blame you for reading that note and thinking "db doesn't
    like the blues". 
    
    After all... that was my intention. 
    
    OK?
    
    What I think I will fault you for is not paying any heed to the
    half dozen or so notes written by myself and others who know me 
    explaining that "db really does like the blues" and the intention/point
    behind them.
    
    OK?   Have we finally cleared that up.  [God, please let him say yes.]
    
    	db

    db,
    
    Yes, you said you liked the blues. I knew that. But you also said many
    things to the effect that it was basically one song and was a very
    restrictive form so you don't like to play it a lot. I understand all
    that. No problemo. Where we get all tangled up is when I say something
    about shredding and you try to make an equivalent statement about blues.
    Some of that stuff just wouldn't compute in my head. I know you like
    blues, at least some. I have come to understand that you are the type of
    person that finds many diverse musical forms interesting if not
    entertaining. And I respect you for that. <hugs>

    Let's just say hordurves. (ref Martin Mull's first album)

    chao,

    Ron (not Mr. Burati, please)

    > I certainly want no hard feelings. I never bashed, I tried my best to
    > explain why I felt the way I did about something that some of my
    
    	I certainly want no hard feelings.  I never bashed, I tried my
    	best to explain why I felt certain things about the blues could
    	be said...
    
    But when I did that, didn't you feel like I was bashing the blues?
    
    > I expressed a personal opinion about how I felt about shredding (*not*
    > shredders) back in .25 and it seems as though it was taken very
    > personally by some here. 
    
    	I expressed a personal opinion about how I felt about blues
    	and it's clear that it was taken very personally by the
    	bluesers in here.
    
    	db

    > Where we get all tangled up is when I say something about shredding
    > and you try to make an equivalent statement about blues. Some of that
    > stuff just wouldn't compute in my head. 
    
    The reason it doesn't compute in your head is because you see it
    only from the blues side.  ("Myopia").
    
    Shredding limits expression in your eyes because you can't express
    yourself in the ways that BLUES guitarists embue expression.
    
    There ARE other ways to express yourself that define OTHER styles of
    playing.
    
    This myopia also renders you unable to see that someone who values other
    modes of expression used in other styles would a) take exception to
    what you say and b) see blues as limited in various ways (just as you
    and others took exception to what I said while I was paraphrasing you).
    
    > I have come to understand that you are the type of person that finds
    > many diverse musical forms interesting if not entertaining. 
    
    Ironically I'm in two bands: one firmly rooted in the R&B vein, the other is
    100% progressive rock.   
    
    Given that you only recognize the forms of expression that are
    connected with the genres you appreciate like the blues,  I can easily
    see why you think shredding has limited expression.  
    
    As I happen to appreciate both, I see your statements about shredding
    as (sorry but...) plainly wrong.
    
        	db

    re: .102
>   Just this specific flurry of 32nd notes (maybe it's 64th notes);
>   he uses it so often that I've come to think of it as a Morse signtaure
>   lick.  Okay, you're gonna ask me for examples.
                              ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    How about Savatage's Edge of Thorns _ I hate that solo - perfect
    example IMO of self-indulgence.
    
    chris
    

    I just want to set the record straight after note .122 mistakenly leaves
    the impression that I only like blues, which is a rather wild
    extrapolation.

    I don't want to seem rude, Dave, but please don't presume to know how I
    perceive music. I've been in all sorts of bands. Country, old R&B, new
    R&B, jazz, plain old R&R, a band that did over four sets of all original
    R&R, even a band that did a rock opera. But I've never played in a blues
    band. I've been around shred for 2 decades. I was listening -live- to
    shred pioneers like Billy Conners in Return to Forever and John
    McLaughlin Mahavishnu Orchestra back in 1972. And after that, Al Dimeola
    and a lot of fusion guys. Shred's nothing new to me. I've had a long
    time to think about it. You may not agree with my opinion but please
    let's be fair here. I've only been talking about blues in this string
    because it keeps getting brought up in this string.

    My musical tastes are pretty eclectic. Here's a sample of some of the
    artists in my record collection. (I purposely omitted blues, a lot of
    R&B, etc.)

    U2, Bill Evans, Betty Carter, Weather Report, Al Jarreau, Eric Johnson,
    Keith Jarrett, Steely Dan/Donald Fagen, James Taylor, Smithereens,
    Mariah Carey,  Anita Baker, Joe Satriani, Kate Bush, Peter Gabrial,
    Simply Red, Dire Straits, John Hiatt, Sting/Police, Phil Evans, Lyle
    Lovett, Jimmy Smith , Wes Montgomery, Steve Winwood, YES, Talking Heads,
    Cyndi Lauper, Carlos Santana, Los Lobos, Chick Corea, Gary Burton, McCoy
    Tyner, Paul Simon, Vince Gill, Genesis, Vladimir Horowitz, Rudolph
    Serkin, various Mozart, Beethoven, etc., Duke Ellington, George
    Gershwin, Aaron Copeland, and of course Beatles-Beatles-Beatles.

    I hope I've made my point. I don't look at all music from a blues
    perspective. That's all I wanted to say.

    --Ron

    OK, group hug now......
    
    8)

    Oh God, not again . . .
    

    smooches, hugs and kisses, folks, but
    
    NO TONGUES!

    YO!
        We toughts you'z guys agreed to disagree last week?
    
    Someone check these guys and make sure none of dem is packin' any heat!
    
    Ok, carry on!
    
    			Joey Butta-fucco

    OK, look... here's the point I want to make:
    
    	As hard as it may be for you to imagine this, saying that "shredding
    	limits expression" is a statement that seems every bit as bogus (AND
    	insulting) to shredding fans as similar statements about the blues does
    	to blues fans. 
    
    > but please don't presume to know how I perceive music. 
    
    I'll honor your request and refrain from any more guesses as to why
    you do not perceive the range of expression in shredding that others
    do as long as you honor my request to not attribute "lack of
    expression/etc." to what is actually a lack of perception on your part.
        
    That's what bugged me about your notes, AND... if you think about it...
    it's what bugged YOU about MY notes (recalling my "main point").
    
    With great love and affection,
    
    	db

    
    Is that the final draft <wink>? Although I did intend to offer an off
    the cuff critique of shredding, I didn't mean to be insulting. Looking
    back .25, maybe I was a bit insulting. I apologize for that.

    Anyway, deal.

    --Ron

    OK, let's get this rathole write-locked and start talking about
    something equally inane...
    
    							Lurch

Article 18261 of alt.music.progressive:
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From: borella@cs.ucdavis.edu (Bi-weekly FAQL autoposter)
Subject: a.m.p FAQL #1 - an intro to alt.music.progressive
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		        alt.music.progressive FAQL #1
		      an intro to alt.music.progressive
                                Revision: 3.0

                      Last Modified: December 22, 1993

                         maintained by Mike Borella
                          (borella@cs.ucdavis.edu)


This is 1 of 4 FAQLs. The others are:

FAQL #2: mail order sources for progressive music
FAQL #3: publications concerning progressive music
FAQL #4: general frequently asked questions (in preparation)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
New or changed in this revision:
        Reformatted for more readability
        General editing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
	*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
	Welcome to alt.music.progressive: The Progressive Music Newsgroup!
	*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*

This message is a regularly posted introduction and welcome which gives you a 
some idea of what this group is about. It attempts to answer some of the most 
frequently asked questions/debates and offers informational pointers to 
progressive music related resources of mailorder sources, magazines, mailing 
lists, lyrics and discographies, many of which are available on-line on 
the Internet.

If you get tired of seeing this posted regularly put the subject line in your 
kill file for alt.music.progressive. With many newsreaders you can just hit 
"K".  However, you might risk missing useful and informative updates to this 
file.  Newcomers to alt.music.progressive are encouraged to read this
message in it's entirety, along with FAQL #4.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q1: WHAT IS PROGRESSIVE MUSIC?

A1: Good question!!  There are probably as many answers as there are
people reading this, and all of them equally valid.  The word
progressive has been defined to mean "forward moving," "widening in
scope," "changing in increments," and so on.  However, in order to
understand what progressive music is all about, one must look beyond
the dictionary definition of the word progressive.  

For terms of discussion on alt.music.progressive (a.m.p), most progressive 
music is based to some degree on: 70's Art Rock, Canterbury, Psychedelic,
Fusion, Krautrock, Classical Rock, Folk, Space Rock, RIO, and Zeuhl
Music (for a definition of these terms, keep reading!) and many other
forms of music.  Recently (in the last 10 years or so) the mainstream media 
has used the word progressive to describe college music, alternative pop, and 
other forms of music.  While this is a valid use of the word, it is not the
use we are refering to on this newsgroup!!  If you're reading this for
the first time and your personal definition of progressive focuses on
bands such as The Smiths, The Cure, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Nirvana,
and/or one of the many bands showcased on MTV's "120 Minutes," you may prefer 
to read alt.music.alternative.

So what makes music progressive?  Personally, I think it's about 50%
the music itself, and 50% the person who listens to it.  Reading
a.m.p, you'll find that many progressive listeners will disagree on
what is or isn't progressive, even the ones who have been listening to
the music for more than 15 years.  Some people say that music is
progressive because it is complex and intricate, others claim it has
to be innovative and groundbreaking, and still others will insist that
music is progressive because it sounds like other music that is
progressive.  In the end, deciding what is or isn't progressive is up
to the individual listener.  If you don't know whether the readers of
a.m.p consider a particular band progressive or not, feel free to ask.

On a personal note, I've been listening to what is widely considered
"progressive music" for about 8 years now, and I'm just realizing what
this genre has to offer.  Every week I have a slightly different idea
what progressive is.  Therefore, I postulate that knowing what
progressive music is may take countless years or listening, as well as
some knowledge of music theory, a good background in other forms of
music, and a sense of history (as in when each band existed, who
influenced them and who they influenced).  To get a feel of what other
people consider progressive, read a.m.p or Gibraltar regularly for
several months. 


Q1.1: IS THERE A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN "PROGRESSIVE" AND "GOOD"?

A1.1: Yes!!!  Many progressive music fans (myself included) have been
guilty of either considering all the bands they like "progressive", or
defining progressive to mean music that they consider "good."  While
this seems to be a human error that many of us make, please think
twice before posting to a.m.p about a band just because you like them.
For example, I would consider Miles Davis "progressive" (he was
innovating, had great feel, and wrote complex music), but discussions
about Miles don't belong on a.m.p, though refering to him occasionally
is fine.


Q1.2: JUST BECAUSE A BAND HAS ONE OR MORE PROGRESSIVE ALBUMS, DOES 
      THAT MEAN THAT EVERYTHING THEY DO IS PROGRESSIVE?

A1.2: No.  This is a common misconception.  Though we call them
"progressive music bands," the bands themselves are not progressive -
the music is.  Once progressive does not means always progressive.
There are many examples of bands that once made great progressive
music, but have turned to churning out pop music.  There seems to be a
trend from progressive music to a more accessible form of music in
many bands' histories, and unfortunately, they rarely return to where
they started.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Q2: WHAT IS ALT.MUSIC.PROGRESSIVE FOR?

A2: Discussions of progressive music used to occasionally happen on newsgroups 
like alt.rock-n-roll and rec.music.misc and on mailing lists like Gibraltar 
as well as others dedicated to specific artist. Then in 1992 someone started 
alt.music.progressive and  gradually a number of folks have wandered in and 
started offering reviews of new and old music in this genre and a helping hand 
to new and old fans of progressive music looking to broaden their musical 
horizons.  At first glance, it might seem to some like progressive rock died 
years ago or that the entire genre could be cataloged into a small genre of a 
dozen or so bands or a couple hundred lps. This isn't the case! There are
many sub-genres and literally thousands of bands and albums and cds that fall 
under the general class of "progressive" and the music industry is actively 
re-issuing (strip-mining?) many classics and even total obscurities once 
thought lost forever. You can now easily buy cd copies of rare releases that 
once sold for $40 to $300 on used lp!

Discussion on a.m.p usually focuses on the lesser known progressive
bands.  While Yes, Genesis, ELP, King Crimson, 
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Music appreciation is very subjective - meaning that we all have
our own opinions. This may seem like an obvious statement, but many
people feel inclined to rate things based on their own personal
belief systems and experience. You may find other folks who agree
with you on some things, but in general out tastes are all unique
and based on what we've been exposed to. And our musical tastes are
typically changing and developing as we are exposed to new music. 
A lot of what this newsgroup is about is sharing info, pointers,
discographies and interviews with others so that we can help each
other explore. There is no road map and there's a huge, diverse
universe of music out there to explore. There's so much "good"
music that's been recorded that one can never hope to find,
experience or catalog it all. But many of us here are trying
anyway, and leaving a few notes scribbled on the walls of the caves
as we scurry on by, occasionally passing strangers and friends  and
making new friends on our journey through the darkness deep into
the unknown. Ok, I know, I'm getting a little carried away here...
but the group has a history of folks getting bent out of shape and
flailing emotionally over whether some band is "better" than
another or whether they are "progressive". We hope to avoid these
unneccessary and meaningless posts from flooding the newsgroup
with noise and anger. 

=================================================================
4. Progressive rock related mailing lists through email/Internet:
================================================================= 

What is a mailing list? It's a group of users with a special
interest topic that unites them via email. Any mail sent to the 
list address is "exploded" by being sent to everyone on the
subscription list. The lists can reach up to hundreds or thousands
of music fans or other folks with mutual interests. Some lists are 
"digested" or available as regular (separate mail for each post) or
digest format. I prefer digests because the number of pieces of
mail in my mailbox is smaller - the volume is the same, but I only
get occasional mail of many messages attached together. It makes it
harder to reply to individual posts but makes my mailbox easier to
manage. 


Some lists are moderated - the moderator may request that
a post be edited or may refuse to post it if the content considered
off-topic. This may sound "fascist", but in reality there are few
situations where post content is censored or edited. One example is
a list where discussion of trading bootlegs is forbidden by the
management of the site that "owns" the mailing list. There is no
"guarantee of free speech" on computer networks, and there is also
the implicit assumption that anything you email or post may be read
by many people. Most people aren't very concerned about this, but
public discussions of potentially illegal actions such as trading
tapes, bootlegs or otherwise is at your risk and should probably be
done with some discretion if you really want to talk about these
things. In theory mailing lists can reach a lot of people who
have email but can't get Usenet news. Mailing lists tend to have
less "noise" posts and flames because of a smaller, more focused
audience. 

For solo and spinoff acts discussions might take place on related
lists (like, Fish might be discussed on the Marillion list, and
Brand X on the Genesis list, Bruford, Levin and Belew on the King
Crimson list, Bruford on the Yes list, Bruford on just about any
list...). Prog mailing list managers: please send me updates &
corrections (especially if you aren't on here)! 

The "-" shows the address to which you should write to be
subscribed. Most mailing lists have a -request or administrative
address for subscriptions and *unsubscriptions*. Save the intro to
any list you subscribe or keep track of the admin address when you
want to unsub. Many people post sub and unsub messages to the list 
mailer addresses, unwittingly sending them to up to hundreds of
other subscribers. Even worse, some folks whine about wanting
to be unsubscribed to large captive audiences who *can't* help
unsubscribe the clueless user. Some list administrators do not
regularly read the mailing list posts or have automated the
subscription process, so use the admin address for any admin
requests. The standard Internet mailing list request address
adds -request to the email address before the @ sign. Listserv or
Bitnet mailing lists typically have a listserv@ address you use
instead of a -request. Some of the smaller, digested lists use no
administrative address and all mail is sent to one address. 

(Unless it says otherwise) Many lists are automated, so be sure
to get "HELP" from their servers before doing anything. 

These lists are included because someone suggested we put them here, not 
because I assume these are progressive rock related lists. 

%%%%%%%%%%%%%
MAILING LISTS:
%%%%%%%%%%%%% 

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  that, then with your first message, make the message-body "Help". (Subject  
  lines are ignored, not processed...)  If you have problems send mail to   
  j-germuska@nwu.edu or germuska@antioch.acns.nwu.edu.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
 
  Genesis
 
  - genesis-serv@cs.unca.edu
  Send a message with "HELP" in the body for details on how to use
  the server to subscribe. (This is *totally* automated!)
  Manager: mcmahan@cs.unca.edu : Scott McMahan

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Gibraltar (Progressive Rock, Art Rock, and Classic Rock)

    To Subscribe, submit, or desubscribe:  gib@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu

    To contact for anything else:  piscine@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu

  Manager: Mike Taylor 


  The list covers general Progressive Rock topics like alt.music.progressive 
  and has a very useful archive server. Send mail to  
  gibraltar-server@maestro.mitre.org with the subject of "help" (without 
  the quotes. :^)) and it'll tell you how to retrieve files via email. The 
  same files may be available through ftp at ftp.uwp.edu. There's a very    
  outdated topical index of the issues of the digest which is useful for 
  finding references to specific bands in back issues. 

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

 PETER HAMMILL/VAN DER GRAAF GENERATOR

    The ph7 mailing list concerns itself with the music and writings
    of Peter Hammill and related bands such as Van Der Graaf Generator.
    Recent discussions have included comments on Random Hold, Fripp,
    The Long Goodbye and Peter Hammill's two books of lyrics, poems,
    and short stories.  To subscribe, send:

  subscribe ph7 Your Name

    to ph7-request@bnf.com (replacing Your Name with your real name).

  Manager:  ph7-owner@bnf.com

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Allan Holdsworth  ATAVACHRON list 
 
  Manager: Jeff Preston  preston@morekypr.morehead-st.edu
 
  A digested list that discusses Allan's music and session work. 

  send subscriptions and posts to:
         atavachron@morekypr.morehead-st.edu  or
         atavachron@morekypr.bitnet

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

   IQ
   
   Also included is discussion of related bands such as Jadis, Niadem's 
   Ghost and the Lens as well as to a smaller degree discussion of lessor 
   known bands on the English club/prog scene.

   Subscriptions: nmd@newton.npl.co.uk

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Jethro Tull
 
  - jtull-request@remus.rutgers.edu
  Manager: steiner@bakerst.rutgers.edu: Dave Steiner

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Kansas
 
  Manager and Subscription address: 
  - rew@world.std.com (Ryan Waldron)



&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

 King Crimson Robert Fripp and related artists (Belew, Bruford, Levin)
 Discipline list

  - toby@cs.man.ac.uk
 Manager: toby@cs.man.ac.uk : Toby Howard
 Digested list. Archives at ftp.uwp.edu with discography(ies?) also.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

 Marillion Freaks
 MARILLION/FISH

    The freaks mailing list is the oldest of the bnf.com progressive
    rock mailing lists.  It is managed by freaks-owner@bnf.com
    (brian@bnf.com) and deals with Marillion, Fish, and other related
    bands.  To subscribe, send:

  subscribe freaks Your Name

    left justified as the first thing in your message to
    freaks-request@bnf.com
    (Replace "Your Name" with your real name ;) )

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Steve Morse and the Dixie Dregs
 
  - blickstein@dregs.enet.dec.COM

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Mike Oldfield
 
  - HART@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu OR HART@vtcc1.bitnet
  Manager: HART@vtmath.math.vt.edu : "Heath"

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

   Pink Floyd - Echoes list

   to subscribe send mail to the server (echoserv@fawnya.tcs.com) with

     Subscription: add echoes 
               or  add-digest echoes

  or you can mail to  echoes-request@fawnya.tcs.com  to susbcribe manually 

  Manager:      bear@tcs.com (h.w. neff  aka  bear)

  archive server has lists of rare releases, huge FAQ, interviews etc. 
  You can get info on how to use the server to retrieve files, reviews of
  rarities discs and interviews and other info by sending mail to the
  echoserv address with the text body:

  help
  quit

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
 
  Rush
  
  - rush-request@syrinx.umd.edu
  Manager: rush-mgr@syrinx.umd.edu  : RUSH Fans Digest Manager

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

   Tangerine Dream
 
  - tadream-request@cs.uwp.edu
  Manager: datta@cs.uwp.edu : David Datta

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Vangelis
 
  - direct-request@ctsx.celtech.com
  (Vangelis is a Greek keyboard player, who was almost a member of
  Yes, has done many albums with Jon Anderson, and also has a 
  strong solo career)

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

  Yes 
 
  Yes and Anderson-Bruford-Wakeman-Howe related. Newsletter: "Notes
  From The  Edge". New subscribers, contributions, questions/comments:

	      hunnicutt@vxc.uncwil.edu

  List editor:  Jeff Hunnicutt

  NFTE Server (lyrics, backissues, discography, rarities, surveys,
  GIFs):  Automated. For help send mail with subject line "send main
  help" to  yes-archive@meiko.com


%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
OTHER NET RESOURCES:
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

FTP for lyrics, discographies, etc:
===================================
If you can ftp there is a wealth of resources on the net. Most of the
musical discographies, lyrics, interviews and other info can be found
at ftp.uwp.edu. Also this site has a number of mailing list archives
and other info. Recently a new service has started there under
/pub/music/artists - it links all info about an artist/band or musician
so you can easily cross-reference and find related info. Since this service
is new it probably will be some time before it's got enough links to be 
very useful. I encourage a.m.p readers to contribute in helping link
musicians to various bands. 

If you're not sure you can ftp ask your sysamdin folks or if you're
on a unix system type "man ftp" fto see if you have an online man page.

USED CD SERVER: 
===============
 
  - used-music-server%cs@hub.ucsb.edu

  A system for selling and trading CDs and records, without a store
  as middleman. Send "help" for more information. You can just check it
  whenever you want to see lists of cds or lps for sale or wanted, or you can 
  subscribe to a weekly list of all cds added (no vinyl or want lists on the    
  mailing list version. 


ALT.Rock-n-roll.SYMPHONIC and the grand rec. reorganization scheme:
  Another Usenet newsgroup dedicated to a similar focus is
  alt.rock-n-roll.symphonic. Apparantly this group was chartered and
  approved months before a.m.p but wasn't started until later. 
  Though the intent of that group is slightly different in more
  narrow in it's focus on "symphonic rock", in effect symphonic rock
  is a sub-set of progressive rock and anything discussed in a.r.s 
  could be discussed in a.m.p. Since the group essentially totally
  overlaps with a.m.p I think it's foolish to use it when a broader
  audience can be reached in a.m.p. Unfortunately, both groups are in
  the alt. heirarchy which is not carried at all Usenet sites, so
  many folks who are interested in this music may not be able to read
  alt.music.progressive. Because of this I plan an RFD and CFV to
  replace alt.music.progressive and a.r.symphonic with a rec.music.
  group, probably rec.music.progressive. Your feedback and support on
  this issue are appreciated.  



Many thanks are due to Scott McMahan (mcmahan@cs.unca.edu) for his
starting the original alt.music.progressive FAQ and writing some of
the material here which I've liberally re-edited and added to. 

Updates, corrections, comments  --> malcolm@wrs.com 



Article 18277 of alt.music.progressive:
Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!nntpd2.cxo.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!spool.mu.edu!agate!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!usenet
From: borella@cs.ucdavis.edu (Bi-weekly FAQL autoposter)
Subject: a.m.p FAQL #2 - mail order sources for progressive music
Message-ID: <FAQL2_756758437@news.ucdavis.edu>
Sender: usenet@ucdavis.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of California, Davis
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1993 18:39:11 GMT
Expires: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 18:40:37 GMT
Lines: 1648

		      alt.music.progressive FAQL #2
	     	  mail order sources for progressive music
			 	Revision: 2.0

		      Last Modified: December 22, 1993 

			maintained by Mike Borella
			 (borella@cs.ucdavis.edu)

This is 1 of 5 FAQLs. The others are:

FAQL #1: an intro to alt.music.progressive
FAQL #3: publications concerning progressive music
FAQL #4: general frequently asked questions (in preparation)
FAQL #5: internet sources for progressive music 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
New or changed in this revision: 
	Reformatted for more readability
	General editing, long comments about vendors shortened
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

		++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
		A LIST OF MAILORDER SOURCES OF PROGRESSIVE MUSIC
		++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

	"Independent distribution is virtually dead. ...Most American stores 
	 get nearly all their wares from six suppliers. " 
	 (CBS, Warner, BMG, Capitol-EMI, Polygram, and MCA.)  
 		-from _Hit Men_ by Frederic Dannen, 
			Vintage Books 1991 (ISBN 0-679-73061-3) 


Part 1: Introduction
--------------------

Despite the majors labels dominating the music industry and distribution, 
artists are still releasing their own product and some small labels are 
dedicated to releasing new music and re-issuing old releases once considered 
rare, out of print and nearly lost forever.  Small distributors are still 
around filling a need, helping us find those releases that nobody else
seems to carry. 

For the purposes of this list "Progressive Music" is intentionally vague. 
It is used in a broad sense to include progressive rock, symphonic rock, 
jazz/rock fusion, Recommended records, Zeuhl music, and to some extent 
electronic, improvised and 20th century classical music. Even in large 
metropolitan areas in this age it can be difficult to find a retail music 
store that stocks a large a huge variety of progressive music. The same is 
essentially true of mailorder vendors also - its too difficult and expensive 
for a small business to maintain a large inventory on hand. Both retail and 
mail order vendors tend to have special areas of interest, typically heavily 
influenced by the interests of the employee(s) ordering the stock.  With
many small one-person businesses in music mailorder the focus of musical 
interest is often somewhat narrow and consequently it's hard to find any one 
mail order source for everything if your musical tastes are diverse. This 
listing of sources tries to address that by listing comments from customers of 
the various vendors to help us get a better idea of what they stock and what 
the pluses and minuses are of each. If you are serious about tracking down hard 
to find music you'll end up having to turn to a variety of resources to find 
what you want. This list is oriented to that perspective, with no intent
meant to imply that any one vendor is better than another.   
 
Many of the vendors are small operations running out of people's homes 
or on a shoestring budget. Please be considerate when calling numbers with 
HOURS listed as the owner might not enjoy answering your calls during dinner 
or while asleep. It's probably a good idea to send a SASE (Self-Addressed- 
Stamped-Envelope) or an IRC (International Reply Coupon from the Post Office) 
if writing overseas. It may not be necessary but I consider it a gesture of 
goodwill and it can make the difference in whether you get a reply or not, 
especially when you're writing overseas. Catalog costs listed here may be 
inaccurate, or a catalog may have a fee associated that isn't noted here. No 
guarantee is made for the accuracy of addresses, pricing or opinions listed 
herein. Please help us keep this up to date by informing us of any changes or 
corrections. 

I have very mixed feelings about including negative comments beyond
constructive criticism about reviews, and stocking policies, etc.
I'm not interested in this becoming a forum to gripe about late delivery or
shipments. But I do feel that it's appropriate to warn others if you've been
seriously or repeatedly screwed by anyone listed here. All opinions and 
experiences included here are the opinions and responsibility only of the
author noted, and not of myself or any other parties associated with this
listing. 

Many thanks are due to Peter Thelen, Andrew Torda, Phil Hildenbrand, Dave 
Mandl, Craig Shipley, Jeff Hemmerling, Pierre Blackburn and anyone else who 
helped out in offering information for this list. Comments are attributed to 
the sources. In many cases the comments are from Peter, who appears to have 
done business with just about every mailorder business around. This is a 
"moderated" listing; I welcome additional comments from anyone but may have 
to edit them if I feel it necessary. 


Part 1.1: Availability of this file / other mail order listings
---------------------------------------------------------------

This file is regularly posted to alt.music.progressive and can also be found 
(possibly not the latest revision) at ftp.uwp.edu as: 

/pub/music/misc/mailorder.progressive

Or at ortega.cs.ucdavis.edu as:

/pub/MSB/A.M.P/faq1.mailorder

There have been a couple of other music (cd/lp) mailorder lists compiled on the net - one that used to be posted to rec.music.misc regularly has been dormant 
(not maintained or updated) since May 1992 but can be found via anonymous ftp 
to ftp.uwp.edu in the file: 

/pub/music/misc/mailorder.rmm  

The current version has been unchanged since May 1992 and contains some out of 
date addresses but is still a huge list of resources. The updated version of 
mailorder.rmm is now found there as:   

/pub/music/misc/mail.order.big

The revision borrows liberally from this listing but managed to keep to still 
have some outdated addresses - in cases of conflicting addresses the one found 
in the list you are currently reading is probably correct.  

Yet another mailorder list is maintained by MIKEY@perch.nosc.mil, for a mailing
list called INFOCD. This is at ftp.uwp.edu as:

/pub/music/misc/mailorder.infocd    

There are some additional lists in that directory of possible interest, for 
example:

/pub/music/misc/mailorder.bootlegs

which is a list of sources in the USA of, um, hard to find rarities.
Happy hunting, listening and exploring...   


Part 2: Vendor listing (short)
------------------------------

This is a large file, so an index of vendors listed here might be useful to 
you - if you have find or search capabilities you may find them handy for 
jumping around to the parts you're looking for.  All vendor names in the list 
are found in CAPITAL letters as shown in the index. 


Part 2.1 Vendors in the USA
---------------------------

Note that many of these businesses will ship outside the USA

ABCD
AEON MUSIC
ART CONTROL ENTERPRISES 
AUDIOPHILE IMPORTS
JEFF BAKER
BARKING PUMPKIN RECORDS/ BARFKO SWILL
CALENDULA RECORDS / MT.OLYMPUS IMPORTS
CD CONNECTION BBS
CD SPECIALTIES
CLEEFO 
CMP RECORDS (USA) 
CORIOLIS RECORDS
DUTCH EAST INDIA TRADING 
ESD - EAST SIDE DIGITAL
EUROCK MAGAZINE & DISTRIBUTION 
FOT RECORDS/PASSED NORMAL COMPILATIONS
G.A.S. - GONG APPRECIATION SOCIETY
GRAND RAPIDS COMPACT DISC
INTERNET USED CD MAIL-SERVER 
TIM HOLDEN
LABYRINTH 
DOUG LARSON
THE LASER'S EDGE 
NODOMESTIX CD IMPORTERS
NOTEWORTHY MUSIC
PARK AVENUE RECORDS
PROGRESSIVE INTERNATIONAL
RANJIT PADMANABHAN
ROCKAWAY RECORDS
ROUND SOUNDS 
SOUND CITY 2000
SPECTRUM MUSIC VIDEO
SYN-PHONIC
TEC TONES/RALPH RECORDS/NEGATIVMAILORDERLAND
USED CD SERVER
VOICEPRINT
WAYSIDE MUSIC
THE WILD PLACES
ZNR RECORDS 
ZOUNDS RECORDS
 

Part 2.2 Vendors outside the USA
---------------------------
 
BEASTONE RECORDS / HIDEAKE UEDA
CD CONNECTION (GERMANY, not the US BBS system)
G.A.S. - GONG APPRECIATION SOCIETY
MIKE LLOYD MUSIC MAIL ORDER,
MUSEA
THE MUSIC SPECIALISTS
NORMAL MAIL ORDER
REC REC SWITZERLAND
SI MUSIC
STANISLAV HAPLA
TAXIM RECORDS
ULTIMA THULE
VINYL VIRUS


Part 3: Vendor listing (long, annontated)
-----------------------------------------

The long vendor listing is in the following format:

Name:			<name of vendor / mail order business>
Mailing Address:	<snail mail address.  N/A means not available>
Phone:			<Phone number.  Please note that some vendors
			 have limited hours.  If no phone or fax number is 
			 listed, either it is not known or there is none>
Fax:			<Fax number>
Comments:		<comments about the vendor, in terms of selection, 
			 service and reliability, among other things>


Part 3.1: Vendors in the USA
----------------------------
	
Name:			ABCD
Mailing address:	33 N Main St 
			Port Chester, NY  10573
				or
   			270 Lafayette St. 
			Suite 1000, NY, NY  10012-3327
			(NOT SURE WHICH IS OLD OR NEW ADDRESS!)
Phone:			(914) 939-2223 
Fax:			(914) 939-3879

Comments:

	Request a catalog if nothing else.  They've got a great selection
	of European and Japanese imports, some domestic stuff too. 
 	- jeff@tessi.com (Jeff Hemmerling)

	One of the priciest places I've dealt with, especially for
	shipping!  But a good selection nonetheless.  
	- Andy Wing

	Import CDs only. Full length CDs only, no CD singles.  They keep
	everything in stock, so there is a very quick turnaround for your
	orders. They're a little stingy about sending catalogs, though, so
	be persistant.   
	- INFOCD mailorder list

	+++		+++		+++		+++

Name:			AEON MUSIC 
Mailing address:	P.O.Box 6185 
			Torrance CA 90504

Comments:

	Run by Francisco Morales. The catalog is extensive, mostly of
	used LPs and new CDs, a mixture of set sale and auction items
	(mostly set sale). A lot of rarities and obscurities.  
        - Peter Thelen

	+++		+++		+++		+++

Name:			ART CONTROL ENTERPRISES 
Mailing address:	Steven F. Del Nero
			10301 Lake Ave. #825 
			Cleveland, OH 44102
 
Comments:

	A set sale and auction list of used but near mint cds and lps. Steven 
	mails out this catalog about once a year or so of used items. The first
	part is an auction and the second part is remaining items from previous
	auctions. His list is fairly large and diverse, including obscure 
	progressive, improv and industrial music but pricing is close to what 
	I can find the items for new if I can find them (but I do live in an 
	area with good music stores). Quality of most items is supposed to be 
	near mint. Worth checking out.  

	A recent flyer from ART CONTROL said it's turning into a full-time
	business and will be expanding to stock more new items in the
	future. Probably with more frequent catalogs too.   
	- Malcolm Humes

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

AUDIOPHILE IMPORTS
somewhere in Maryland?
(410) 628-7601  
Someone said they have "a large selection of hard-to-find CD's",
though I'm not sure if their focus is really towards progressive
music. Supposedly they carry a lot of hard to find japanese, german
and other imports of fusion, and jazz and rock stuff. I called for
a catalog and was told that they were just doing a huge mailing and
couldn't get one to me until the next one about two months later.
The guy suggested he could send a copy now if I bought something
and asked if there was anything in particular I was looking for. He
mentioned a couple of Holdsworth obscurities. I told him I'd wait
for a catalog.  - Malcolm

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

JEFF BAKER, R.D.2, Box 294, Camden DE  19934,  USA
His catalog of "progressive, psychedelic, electronic, folk-rock
to hard-rock collectable LPs & CDs" is $1 ($2 overseas)
                                       - Peter Thelen
+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

BARKING PUMPKIN RECORDS/ BARFKO SWILL?
1-818-PUMPKIN for more info. 
    (786-7456)
This is Frank Zappa's mailorder business for Zappa and the Mother
of Invention releases and products such as posters, tshirts, etc.
The line usually has an informational recording during non business
hours, and I think they also answer general questions about Zappa
and take orders during regular business hours - probably 9am- 5pm
California time.   - Malcolm

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

CALENDULA RECORDS / MT.OLYMPUS IMPORTS, Seattle area 
Rick Haney c/o 6207 22nd Ave, Seattle WA 98115 
(address may have changed)
Now here's a guy who I had a real bad mail order experience with.
As far as I'm concerned this guy is a total flake, I sent him money
for both of the HAPPY THE MAN CD's (Japanese Pressings), which
he
had listed in his catalog. Six months later I got one of them, and
a refund for the other. This was after about 40 long distance phone
calls to his damn answering machine he never once returned a call,
and it turns out that at the time he put his catalog out, he didn't
have the discs in stock, in fact hadn't even ordered them yet, his
Idea was to take a bunch of orders THEN order them after he had
enough to guarantee a healthy profit for himself. Fortunately I was
able to get the missing title from BEASTONE, who had a couple
copies left. Watch out for this flake. He also runs another mail
order catalog called MOUNT OLYMPUS RECORDS, I got the catalog
in
the mail, saw his name on the inside cover, then threw it in the
trash. Maybe local Seattle people have better experiences with him
dealing face to face, but for mail order - forget it.
                                                - Peter Thelen

I had a bad experience with a record store in Seattle that was
either called Mount Olympus or that was the title of a mailorder
catalog I later got associated with that store. I went to a store
in Seattle and found an amazing stock of new and used progressive
rock there. I bought a bunch of stuff and after I left town I
called to arrange another order which a friend was to pick up for
me. Many of the lps they had were priced at high collectors prices,
and I specifically asked them for a handful of releases, and I
asked them to pull any 2 of about 6 releases they had by Embryo.
The friend got there and found the order totaled $185 instead of
the $70 I'd told him it would be, and he thought something was
fishy and didn't take the order. A month or two later I found the
store billed my VISA card anyway, and they still had the records
"held" for me because they didn't have my shipping address. Turns
out they'd pulled they entire Embryo section priced at $25 each
thinking I'd wanted them all. I resolved it and was happy to get
lps I couldn't find anywhere else, but it was pretty sleazy on
their part. The Mount Olympus catalogs I saw had a lot of rare lps,
but at very high prices. It was (loosely?) affiliated with the
store that tried to burn me. This happened around late 1987, so
it's possible that the store and/or mailorder biz are gone now or
operating under another name. I would recommend that you make
sure
you know exactly what you're getting before you send any money to
these folks or place an order.                     - Malcolm

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

CD CONNECTION BBS systems - San Jose, San Francisco, Chicago,
New
York 
(requires modem and computer terminal)
  Compact Disc Connection 
  1016 East El Camino, #322        Voice: 408/733-0801  Fax:
408/733-0850
  Sunnyvale, California             Modem: 408/730-9015  Up to 9600
bps
                 94087                  (8 data, no parity, 1 stop)
  San Francisco area/Berkeley: 510/843-1259
  Chicago: 312/751-2447; New York City: 212/532-4045
58,000+ Cds listed on-line, accepts VISA, MasterCard, $3 per
regular order; free shipping on orders of $100 within 48 US states,
Phonolog(tm)-Select - industry standard song/track title database.
Downloadable catalogs so you can search offline, and available via
mail for $5 (deductible from next/first order). The Golden Ears
Society -  music critics.  Ships to Canada, Overseas shipping info
available. Claims 94% average ability to deliver - 90 -100% of
orders filled. 
Delivery of orders requires approximately 1 work week + shipping
time (1-2.5 weeks depending on location. An separate account must
be established on each system (city) you will be using if you call
more than one location of this company to place orders.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

CLEEFO, Box 652, Ellington CT 06029  USA. 
 Phone: (203) 875-2315  3-10PM EST
Cleefo (that's his name) specializes in cutout CDs, Cassettes and
Videos of all types. He used to send out a list, but rarely does
anymore as his stock turns over so quickly. Just this year (92) he
was able to get me two long- out-of-print Synergy CD's and Dixie
Dregs "Dregs of the Earth" CD. It's best to just call and let him
know what you're looking for. I've never had any problems with his
service, he's always been friendly and helpful on the phone, and
has a network of other record-show type dealers that he works with,
which in some cases allows him to get some long-lost obscurities in
record time. (he couldn't find me a copy of Utopia's POV though
!!). Overall very good prices.   - Peter Thelen

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

CMP RECORDS (USA)              CMP RECORDS   
155 W. 72nd Street  #704       PO BOX 1129
New York                       D-5166 Kreuzau 
NY  10023  USA                 F.R. GERMANY
CMP is a label with a variety of releases ranging from fusion and
jazz, to world ethnic music, gamelans, etc. Trilok Gurtu, David
Torn, Chad Wackerman, Ed Mann, Allan Holdsworth and Mick Karn
are
just some of the players on various CMP releases. I'm not positive
they still do direct mailorder and I know I can find their releases
in stores and through distributors like Ranjit, but it's nice to
look a catalog of their releases to see the full scope of what they
carry. Write for a free catalog.   - Malcolm   

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CORIOLIS RECORDS Box 3528, Orange CA 92665
They handle only a very limited selection of {mostly} Southern Cal.
independent artists: Walter Holland, Djam Karet, Neuronium,
Steve Roach, Mark Dwane, and a handful of others.  - Peter Thelen

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DUTCH EAST INDIA TRADING 
PO BOX 800, Rockville Centre, NY 11571-0800
Carries some Wyatt and Soft Machine BBC releases and probably
other
BBC Peel Sessions too. Appears to be licensing the material from
Strange Fruit records. I've heard that they have a mailorder
catalog but I haven't asked for it because I can find the releases
in local stores here already.  - Malcolm

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ESD - EAST SIDE DIGITAL
530 North 3rd Street, Minneapolis, MN 55401
A small label that has releases by Fred Frith, Henry Cow, Happy The
Man, National Health, The Residents, and more. Last time I wrote
they mailed me a catalog that was months out of date, but the
prices were pretty decent and cheaper than other mailorder vendors
that carry their releases. Associated with Ryko's mailorder too.
  - Malcolm

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EUROCK MAGAZINE & DISTRIBUTION 
PO Box 13718, Portland OR,  97213  USA
Phone: (503) 281-0247 (10 AM - 5 PM ONLY !!!)
Subscription to Eurock "magazine" is $ 8.00 / Year. <Though if you
buy from Eurock regularly the magazine/catalog may arrive for free.> 
Eurock started as a magazine in the mid-70s, specializing in
European progressive and space rock. The magazine had a
supplementary distribution list of difficult to find music that you
could order direct. As all stores began carrying less imported
material, Eurock Distribution grew in importance to the point that
the magazine now has pretty much taken a back seat to the catalog.
The owner of this enterprise is Archie Patterson, whose preferences
lie primarily in electronic driven space music and melodic
progressive rock, and his lists tend to reflect this. His lists
tend to come out about 4 times a year, and each item is accompanied
by a brief description and synopsis which I've found to be very
accurate for the most part. He has his own in-house label (also
called Eurock) which features artists like Gandalf, Robert Julian
Horky, Green Isac, Erik Wollo and others.
One thing to note is that Eurock generally does not restock items
after they are sold out unless the demand is overwhelming, and he
gets things in fairly modest quantities, so the best policy is to
give him a call as soon as the catalog comes out to reserve the
Items you want - if you wait more than a few weeks some things will
no longer be in stock. Generally he's happy to discuss the Items he
has in stock over the phone if you need more information,  as long
as you don't call after 5:PM PST; in fact i'd recommend this, as he
can get your feedback from previous orders and learn what your
tastes are and make specific recommendations for you. I've been
dealing with Eurock for about 7 or 8 years, and I have never had
any problems, nor do I know anyone who has... He generally delivers
within a week or two of receipt of payment. Does not accept credit
cards.   - Peter Thelen
 - - - - - - - - - - -
The magazine now is mostly product listings with (very) occasional
interviews and information.  The mail order business is excellent. 
I'm a little biased because Archie lives here in Portland and I
just go over to his house to buy things and talk about music.
The magazine is double sided Xeroxed pages stapled together.
It cost eight dollars a year (I think).
 - Jeff Hemmerling <jeff@tessi.com>
 - - - - - - - - - - - 
Archie generally gives fairly verbose reviews of most of the albums
he sells.  I've bought a fair amount from him but have long since
stopped primarily because I found his reviews to be wildly
inaccurate. Most of the things I evaluate in music tend to go
untouched or misrepresented.

 These would be such things as:
    1. What are the musician's capabilities from a traditional
point of view? (You probably have to be a fairly accomplished
musician to say this truthfully)
    2. Do performance flaws mar the recording?
    3. Is there a higher cohesiveness or purpose to the work or is
it just some hackers playing in a studio?
    4. What is the level of energy and urgency?
 
I have a couple of real gems that I bought through him that didn't
really stick out in his reviews as such.  So I'd have to give him
a D for his ability to review but an A+ for making so much music
available.   - Steve Sycamore
<STEVE.SYCAMORE@OFFICE.WANG.COM>
 - - - - - - - - - - -
I've found his reviews to be either right on the mark or completely
off base.  Some stuff he is enamoured with I bought, only to be
somewhat dissapointed (Didier Bonin, Tangled Edge) or completely
turned off by (Johannes Neumann).  Other times I buy sight
unseen/unheard and am pleasantly surprised (Ozric Tentacles, Berndt
Kistenmacher, Mario Schonwalder). He tends to be a hit or miss
reviewer.             - Andy Wing

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FOT RECORDS/PASSED NORMAL COMPILATIONS
PO BOX 505, BLOOMINGTON, IL 60108
Phone/Fax (312) 862-1083
Small, odd selection of compilations and mailorder with some cheap
and some regularly priced items. Includes works by Frith, Kaiser,
Don Cherry, Sun Ra, Negativland, Daevid Allen, Mother Gong, Made
To Measure and more.  - Malcolm 

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G.A.S. - GONG APPRECIATION SOCIETY

GAS AMERICA
PO BOX 1151, NORTH WALES, PA 19454
Send an SASE for more info. 
GAS in the USA offers some merchandise, tapes, tour info and
newsletters but carries less of the rare tapes and cds and other
products compared to GAS UK. See GAS UK listing in the
international mailorder section for more details. 

not really a mailorder source, but worth mentioning here:
 Gong San Francisco Concert info hotline
 (415)905-4535
 P.O. Box 470535, SF, CA 94147-0535
Info about upcoming San Francisco area shows and releases by
Gong and Gong-related tour network. Daevid Allen, The Magick Brothers, 
Tim Blake, Mother Gong, and Gilli Smyth have done local shows
already, and Richard Sinclair, Kevin Ayers, David Cross band, and
Gordon Haskell are some of the artists possibly playing here in the
future. 

Also, if you're interested in Gong, see the Spectrum Music Video
listing for info on a Gongmaison live video they carry. 
 
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GRAND RAPIDS COMPACT DISC
3140 South Division 
Wyoming, MI 49508 

Someone on Prodigy told me this is a decent source of Progressive
rock cds. I'm waiting for a catalog...     - Malcolm
 
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TIM HOLDEN 
TIM HOLDEN 
139 Hawkfield Crescent NW, Calgary Alberta, Canada T3G 1Z4
Phone: (403) 241-9073  (5-9PM PST)
  
Tim is a guy who deals mainly in used LPs and works shows in his
area, he's got good contacts with a lot of other dealers &
collectors in his area, and seems to have no trouble finding rare
and out-of-print stuff if you give him a little time. He found me
6 o/p albums by Maneige over the course of the last year, and found
the whole FM catalog for a friend of mine, including the rare first
album "Headroom", all for very reasonable prices. His service is
extremely good, turn-around-time is quick, and he's a really
friendly chap to talk with on the phone. Recommended for o/p stuff.
                                                  - Peter Thelen

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THE INTERNET USED CD MAIL-SERVER
(this one is limited to folks with email on internet or uunet)
The used music server (used-music-server@cs.ucsb.edu) maintains a database 
of  used music (CDs, records, tapes, etc.) for sale and a separate (but 
equal)  database of used music that is wanted. Send mail with the subject
HELP for more info on using the server. You can subscribe to a mailing 
list of weekly updates to the list of cds for sale. It's an excellent 
way to buy and sell used cds without a music store making a large markup 
on the deal. All kinds of cds are bought and sold there. The lp and tape 
list doesn't seem to get used as much.  

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LABYRINTH
575 3 St., Apt. 1-D, Brooklyn, NY 11215
a mail-order distributor run by my friend Tony Coulter (who does a
great radio show on WFMU).  He's an expert on obscure progressive
rock, a lot of which he has available for sale or trade. He also
carries a lot of Recommended/Re stuff.  Some random items from his
current catalog: Ron Geesin, Super Sister (Dutch prog rock),
Blegvad, Re Quarterly, obscure Italian prog rock, Fat, Faust, R.
Stevie Moore, and many many things I've never heard of. Carries
LPS and cds.  
                -  Dave Mandl (dmandl@bilbo.shearson.com)   

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DOUG LARSON
62 Crane St., Caldwell NJ  07006   Phone: (201) 226-6332
Doug has a very extensive list of all kinds of progressive from all
over the world, and his prices are fairly reasonable. A really easy
guy to deal with and not too opinionated about things. If you call
(after 4PM EST) he'll take your order right then and ship it as
soon as he gets payment. He sends everything out priority mail,
which all makes his TAT very quick. From the west coast, my
experience has been typically 7 working days from the day I phoned
in the order and sent the payment, to the day the discs arrive.
That beats everyone else hands down, even guys on the west coast
-
Doug's definitely the fastest Turnaround in the business. He
handles a really good selection of Italian 70's prog, I'm really
impressed with his selection of other types of stuff too. He will
make a sampler tape of various discs in his list for a nominal
charge, but don't ask him to record the whole disc, just
selections. He advertises in goldmine every two weeks, which is a
good way to keep up with the new stuff he gets in stock. He's also
got an extensive list of rare and o/p LP's. Highly Recommended.  
                                          - Peter Thelen

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THE LASER'S EDGE
PO BOX 3128, Hoboken, NJ 07030
201-656-2112 (6PM to 10PM EST, No Later !!!)
The Laser's Edge is a Label and mail-order CD only distribution run
by Ken Golden. Ken gets the medal for having positively the most
descriptive and informative catalog of any mail-order outfit I've
ever dealt with, every disc is reviewed carefully, and opinions are
offered - one of the few people I've ever seen who will tell you
that a disc he carries is crappy if it really is ! The in-house
label (TLE also) has many releases mostly by long forgotten
independent artists from the 70's, but there are some new releases
as well. Artists include: The Load, A Triggering Myth, Werwolf,
Landberk, Spring, Nightwinds, Atlantis Philharmonic and others. His
tastes lean more towards early post-psychedelic proto-progressive
stuff, and this is evidenced in many of the releases on his own
label. One must remember this when using the descriptions in his
catalog to make a judgement on something. He tends to get unusual
stuff that, like Wayside, nobody else seems to want to carry. I've
found him only to be moderately friendly on the phone (but then I'm
one of those people that calls at 11PM too!), he generally won't go
into any further elaboration on items he has in stock, "I think I
described that adequately in the catalog" is his stock answer. He's
been very dependable, but since he's a one-man operation, things
get a little slower if you order right after the catalog comes out
(2x/year), he does take Visa and Mastercard. Strongly recommended. 
  - Peter Thelen

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NODOMESTIX CD IMPORTERS, PO Box 399, River Edge, NJ  07661
Tel:  (201) 599-9714 (M-F Noon-5 pm EST, Sat 10am-Noon EST)
FAX:  (201) 599-1952

They often have full page ads in Goldmine. 
    -  Dan Thedens    thedens@fangio.cipl.uiowa.edu

They've carried some Peter Hammill imports I'd asked about.
                                           - Malcolm 

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NOTEWORTHY MUSIC, 17 Airport Road, Nashua NH  03063
   Phone (800) 648-7972 [8:30am-6:00pm EST] 
         (603) 881 5729 [9:00am-4:00pm EST]
   New Release Hotline +1 603 883 1914,  Fax: (603) 883-9220

Noteworthy is a mail-order only outfit who deal only in domestic
product, and only the best known of it as well. They still have a
very good selection and have been especially helpful in rounding
out my collections of Kansas, Pat Metheny, Zappa, King Crimson,
Tull and others. Why order from these guys, you might ask ? Because
their prices are about two dollars cheaper than you'll find in
almost any record store, and when you order enough the shipping is
next to nothing. In some cases their prices for new product are a
dollar less than you could get the same used disc for in a store.
And for those of us in California with the 8% sales tax, Noteworthy
is out of state, an added savings - for a little while longer at
least. Real nice catalog, call and ask for it.   - Peter Thelen

Noteworthy does ship outside the US, but I think the shipping rates
are a bit expensive. There is a fee (I think $5) for catalog
requests from outside the US, but I believe they will send a
catalog free with your first order - so you may be able to call or
fax an order for an item they are likely to stock and get the
catalog free that way.     - Malcolm 

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PARK AVENUE RECORDS, P.O. Box 19296, Seattle, WA 98109
Phone: 206-282-5604
I haven't ordered anything from them yet, but I have seen
their big catalog and been very impressed.  (I know folks
who have ordered from them and been perfectly satisfied.)
                            - Dave Mandl

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PROGRESSIVE INTERNATIONAL 
3180 Washington Blvd Suite 310, Ogden Utah 84401
Phone: (801) 394-7700   Fax: (801) 394-7707
Originally Progressive Records, it was started by a couple named
Brad and Rona (if I recall correctly) in Livermore CA. in the
mid-80's. They lost interest and sold the business to Ken Welchoff
who moved it to Hayward CA, then to Union City CA, then back to
Hayward, then finally to Utah. Around 1990 he joined with Q Records
and Keith Turner (of Quasar) in London to form an international
business and record label. For years it was a store of sorts where
one could shop by appointment. With the Union City move they tried
to establish a store with regular hours, but the local support
wasn't there. All along they have been a mail order outlet and,
although I've rarely dealt with them by mail, I've heard a lot of
horror stories not unlike my dealings with Calendula (see above).
I personally have no bad experiences. Their in-house label features
artists like Solstice, Xaal, Sinister Street, Anthony Phillips,
Gryphon, Steeleye Span, Aragon, Wayne Kramer and others. They are
getting national distribution in major chain stores like Tower and
others, so there's really no need to buy their titles directly from
them. They also handle distribution for bands like Galahad and
Final Conflict, and stock a modest selection of other imported
titles as well, although my feeling is that they would like to get
out of the direct mail-order business altogether and sell to
distributors only. Like many others, I've found that these guys are
less than totally reliable about getting things in that they say
they will get in, so my recommendation is to never order anything
unless they have it in stock when you order.    - Peter Thelen
<Editor's Note: It appears that Progressive as a mailorder source
is now no longer operating, and if it revives then it may be risky
to deal with. But the label is still active in some form, now based
out of Utah. - malcolm>

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RANJIT PADMANABHAN, 566 Crystalberry Terrace, San Jose CA 95129
Email: ranjit@netcom.com
Specializes in import CDs pertaining to Progressive Rock and
Electronic music.

Such a clever idea: Sell CD's over the net. Anyway, I'd been
hearing about Ranjit for a couple years, mostly from Ken Welchoff
of Progressive, who recommended him highly, before I actually got
in touch with him. It was other netters highest recommendations
that finally convinced me. He sends out periodic "Descriptive"
catalogs over the net, as well as simple lists that list everything
he has in stock. All you need to do is email him and ask him to
send it. He's a very friendly guy, knowledgeable and helpful, his
selection is extremely good and his prices are good also. Once your
order is confirmed, he holds it for you, you send him the payment,
and he sends you the discs. Very simple, very convenient. He also
carries all currently available issues of Audion Magazine, and,
like Doug Larson, will make a sampler tape of things from his list
for a nominal fee.    - Peter Thelen
  
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ROCKAWAY RECORDS, 2395 Glendale Blvd. LA CA 90039  
Tel: (213) 664-0956
These guys offer CDs of some live shows, Westwood One
radio discs, etc. but nothing specifically progressive,
just general interest. Ordered once - service was fast.  
                                    - Peter Thelen

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ROUND SOUNDS, 1219 So PCH, Redondo Beach, CA 90277 
Phone: (310) 316-0078 (Ed Wilson)
(old address? 419 North Pacific Coast Highway, Redondo Beach, CA
90277 (213) 372-3477)

>From: rogoff@netcom.com (Carolyn Rogoff David Rogoff)

The best store that I've found for progressive stuff is Round
Sounds in Redondo Beack (near L.A.)  It's a small store that is
almost all progressive stuff including lots of imports.  They do
mail/phone order:   - David Rogoff     rogoff@netcom.com

Round Sounds is a small record store which also operates a CD
mail-order business. The proprietors name is Ed, and he's a real
friendly guy who'll gladly offer an opinion on something in his
list (which is mailed out at irregular intervals and has no
descriptions, just a list). Every time I'm in southern California
I always make a point to stop by his store, he has a lot of "Rare"
CD's (ahem) that he doesn't put in his list. I understand he also
has periodic "Progressive Listening Parties" at his newer larger
store, which i've not seen yet (above address may be wrong, call
first for sure) His list is very complete, but I find that a lot of
things he lists are only occasionally in stock, and like
Progressive, he tends to have a lot of excuses why things in his
list aren't in stock. Over the last few years I've ordered from him
many times, and I've generally had good luck, but more than
occasionally I've had to call and remind him of my order, which in
a few cases he'd just forgotten to send. In some cases it was items
he thought were in stock but weren't so he held up the order. One
time he sent the wrong stuff totally, I had to send it back. He
will send a partial order if you ask him to, and send the rest when
it comes in. His prices for most stuff are pretty competitive, and
he accepts MC, Visa and Amex too. I find he's overall pretty good
on selection (despite his ambitious list) but a little flaky on
service.      - Peter Thelen

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SOUND CITY 2000, P.O.Box 22149, Portland OR 97222-0149  USA
Phone: (503) 654-2196   Fax: (503) 654-4920
These guys have specific catalogs for Japanese, German
and British releases. They have no stock, they order
after you pay... a flimsy deal if you ask me, plus their
prices are extortionate.    - Peter Thelen
  
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SPECTRUM MUSIC VIDEO  (seomwhere in Pennsylvania)
1-800-84MUSIC

Has a very large music video catalog of NTSC VHS and many laser
discs including imports. Includes some Prog stuff like King 
Crimson, Enid, etc.

They carry the Gongmaison 1991, Brixton, UK show at the Fridge for
sale for $19.95 plus $3.50 shipping. This video has some great
special effects and brief interviews with Daevid Allen and Didier
are spliced in. It's great! It includes lots of old Gong material
circa Camembert Electrique.   - Malcolm

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SYN-PHONIC, P.O.Box 2034, La Habra CA  90631  
Tel/Fax: (714) 894-9506
Syn-phonic is owned by Greg Walker, who also has an in-house label
which specializes primarily in American progressive artifacts, but
he also has some current artists signed. The roster includes
Kalaban, Now, Babylon, Mirthrandir, Northstar, Cathedral and
others. For years he was releasing this stuff on vinyl only,
notorious for their marginal pressing quality. However, since
around 1991 Greg has been releasing CDs only, and unlike the LPs,
no quality was spared on these, either in the pressings or the
booklets, which tend to have extensive information on the artists,
much like America's answer to Musea. He has gone back and
re-released much of his vinyl on disc now, and eventually plans to
re-release everything and then some. His mail-order list is
extensive, and includes imports from all over the world. His prices
on Japanese product are the best anywhere, frankly I don't know how
he can do it, but his prices are roughly the same as one would pay
in Tokyo ! He also has an amazing selection of 70's Italian
product. His service is very good, prompt TAT, and although he
seems to be difficult to get hold of on the phone, when you do
catch him he is very helpful and honest. He's one of the few
that'll tell you something in his list is garbage. I was ready to
order something once, and he recommended I save my money !! 
Also, for those who are into vinyl, he still stocks things on both
formats, whenever available, although I imagine the LPs will
disappear from his stock eventually.     - Peter Thelen

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TEC TONES/RALPH RECORDS/NEGATIVMAILORDERLAND
P.O. Box 1477, Hoboken, NJ  07030  (former address was in SF, CA)
Phone 201/420-0238, Fax 201/420-6494
TEC TONES is the mailorder wing of Ralph Records, TEC Tones
releases, and Negativland products. They also carry some other
items like imports of Fred Frith and ESD Henry Cow releases. Mainly
it's the mailorder company for the Residents' releases and for
Frith, Snakefinger, Clubfoot and other releases on the Ralph label
and distribution for some other small labels from the US and other
parts of the world.                          - Malcolm

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VOICEPRINT
PO BOX 32827, KANSAS CITY, MO 64111  USA
(816)561-0723 business # (and home # too?)
(816)531-2271 fax

Rick Chafen at Voiceprint books the US tours of the Gong/Canterbury
network (which strays beyond those parameters but it's the easiest
way to describe it). Rick has helped present or is working on tours
by Daevid Allen, The Magick Brothers, Tim Blake, Mother Gong, Gilli
Smyth, Richard Sinclair, Kevin Ayers, Didier Malherbe Trio, David
Cross band, and Gordon Haskell. He's the person to talk to if you'd
like to help book shows by these artists in your city. 

Voiceprint US has a couple of products and also imports UK
Voiceprint releases by Daevid Allen, Magick Brothers, Tim Blake,
Nic Potter, David Jackson, Robert Wyatt and more. A number of
releases including early Canterbury and recent Canterbury projects
and also works by David Bedford, Kevin Ayers. These releases can
be ordered from Voiceprint or from other distributors at comparable
prices. Voiceprint tends to only stock a few copies of the UK VP
releases. Very occasional catalogs or newsletters are mailed out.
     - Malcolm

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WAYSIDE MUSIC 
PO Box 8427, Silver Spring MD  20902-8427  USA
Phone #: (301) 589-1803 new release info (recording) 
(no catalog requests via phone, you must write for a catalog.)

Wayside is the Mail Order outfit that I've been dealing with the
longest, probably around 8 or 9 years. They have two catalogs: An
annual "Green" catalog of Items they keep in stock all year long,
plus a quarterly (?) "White" catalog that lists Items that are
either new in stock or that will not be restocked after they are
gone, many of these items are very limited quantity stuff, so after
you get the white catalog it's best to act fast. Wayside carries a
wide variety of progressive stuff, but clearly favors the fringe,
RIO, and other uncategorizable material over the "melodic pop" type
progressive. They have two in-house labels: Cuneiform and W.M.A.S.
(Wayside Music Archive Series) featuring artists like Univers Zero,
PFS, Curlew, Richard Pinhas, Dr. Nerve, Miriodor, Henry Kaiser,
Phil Miller, However, Forever Einstein, etc. The catalogs usually
have a brief (3-6 line) description of the items they carry. I've
found these descriptions to sometimes be inaccurate and misleading,
so it's best to proceed with caution if you're about to buy
something you've never heard of based on a Wayside description...
Then again these catalog descriptions have sometimes led to some
really nice surprises. Complaints: First and foremost is their lack
of a live telephone for order confirmation, and secondly the they take too
long - sometimes up to six weeks - to send out the orders. Usually
it takes about a month. On the plus side, they've recently added
credit card payment as an option, which means you no longer have
to list a bunch of alternatives you don't really want or receive
credit slips.    - Peter Thelen

Wayside is also a good source for mailorder for folks outside the
USA. It's one of the few catalogs I recall that lists international
shipping rates, and based on what I've heard it offers fairly
competitive rate compared to what cds sell for in some parts of the
world. 
                                                   - Malcolm

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THE WILD PLACES (Adventures in vinyl... and beyond.)
Michael Piper, 621 "A" Hanover Street, Santa Cruz, CA 95062
(408)427-3043 (Don't call after 10pm PST!)
His first catalog (March 93) is 42 pages of new and used lps and
cds, with a lot more vinyl than cd stock. The catalog probably has
about 1400 items or more, mostly obscure psychadelic and
progressive. Some of the prices are collectors prices (one item
here is listed at $975!) but there's a lot of reasonably priced
items too. I bought from him once. He gave me a partial refund
with the order because he noticed the condition wasn't quite as
good as he had rated it in the catalog.      - Malcolm 

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ZNR RECORDS 
P.O.Box 58040, Louisville KY, 40268-0040  Phone: ???
Have their own Label; I wrote to them once about a couple
specific titles, he had them but the asking price was a joke.
Asked them to send a catalog, they sent an auction list of
some rare prog LPs. I know a lot of people who buy from them. 
                                            - Peter Thelen

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ZOUNDS RECORDS, 3422 Cherry Tree Ln., Erlanger, KY 41018
The guy who runs Zounds was the former partner of Steve
Roberts of ZNR (he's the "Z").  I've ordered from him with
no problems for the most part, though I did get one LP (an
expensive one) which I thought was not in the advertised
condition.
             - Dave Mandl 

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==================================
MAILORDER SOURCES OUTSIDE THE USA:
==================================

BEASTONE RECORDS / HIDEAKE UEDA
SB Heights Ten # 301, 9-1 Kikusui, Shiroishi-Ku, Sapporo 003 Japan.
(Hideake Ueda is the guy's name) 
I've only ordered from Beastone a few times, their catalog is
extensive but mostly general interest stuff (non-progressive), but
they do (or did) have a decent selection of "Live" (ahem) CD's and
other "Rarities"... And he will find things for you that aren't in
the catalog. My first dealing with Beastone was in an effort to
locate the o/p Happy the Man CD that i didn't get from Calendula
(see above), and they came through almost immediately ! I haven't
ordered from them in a long time, but they do take IMO's in US
Currency, and deliver stuff very quickly (more quickly than most
domestic outfits).    - Peter Thelen

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

CD CONNECTION, P.O. Box 10 14 31, 6900 Heidelberg, W. Germany
Advertises in Goldmine; carries lots of bootlegs. Some folks I know
have dealt with them with no problem. Another friend claims to have
been ripped off and says he knows other who have been too.
Goldmine
refused to get involved in any disputes between advertisor and
customer. If you order from these guys you run the risk of customs
seizures. Best betis to insure, which won't protect from customs
but might help if they claim the discs were shipoped and you never
received them.                            - Malcolm 

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

COMPACT DISC SERVICES   0382 76595
C.D. Services are in Dundee, Scotland. Sorry, I don't have their
address.
  Their main specialty is electronic and new age synth music: what
they don't know about the availability of T.Dream, Kit Watkins,
Gandalf, etc, etc, isn't worth knowing.
  They are also very helpful with all manner of progressive stuff,
including Gong, Canterbury, Bruford, Camel, etc, etc.
  These were the guys who, when I called up about a CD of Pink
Floyd's Relics, instantly knew that it was only ever available from
Australia, its legality was in some doubt, and has been out of
print for about two years.
  They will get imports from anywhere in the world, and if you're
thinking about a Japanese import, they will often have a good idea
whether it's likely to soon become available from elsewhere, and
therefore be much cheaper if you wait a while.
  Their prices are not discounted, and they do charge postage, but
they give a good service (recorded delivery within the UK), and
always seem to know how to try and get obscure stuff.
      -  Clive Backham <clive@mcdd1.uucp>

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

G.A.S. - GONG APPRECIATION SOCIETY

GAS  
PO BOX 871, GLASTONBURY, SOMERSET, BA6 9FE, UK
GAS in the UK carries a number of tapes of rare Gong and Gong
related folks, lps, cds, tshirts, posters, lyrics, newsletters,
tour info and other goodies. Also see the US GAS listing above.
As of 1990, GAS Membership costs 8 pounds per year. You receive
atape of unreleased material, a discount of 10% on anything ordered,
and quarterly newsletters to which you are welcome to contribute. 
I suspect rates may have changed. I'd recommend sending an IRC
asking for more info.     - Malcolm 

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 
MIKE LLOYD MUSIC MAIL ORDER, 
14-20 Brunswick Street, Hanley, Stoke-on-Trent, Staffs, ST1 1DR, UK
Phone: ???
Formerly known as Lotus Records, these guys have specialized
catalogs for Canterbury, Zeuhl (Magma), and other stuff.     
                                   - Peter Thelen

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

MUSEA, 68 La Tinchotte, 57117 Retonfey, FRANCE  Fax: (33)
87366473
Really nice catalog (in english now), but I've heard that they are
very slow, and difficult to get hold of by phone. Most of their
stuff is available elsewhere.   - Peter Thelen

Also see other Musea listings under Labels and Publications for
more details on the label and magazine. 

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

THE MUSIC SPECIALISTS
50 Raffles Place, #03-011, Shell Tower, Singapore 0104
phone (065) 734-3775
fax   (065) 224-2785
Carries a lot of live and bootleg cds. Similar to the CD Connection
in Germany, but supposedly more reliable per one friend who has
used both. They'll send lists for $2.

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

NORMAL MAIL ORDER
Bonner Talweg 276, 5300 Bonn 1, GERMANY
tel (Germany)-228-22 06 55
fax           228-22 16 56
Excellent selection of bands on tiny labels. Lots of really
obscure punk, Australian, New Zealand and German bands.
They are very prompt at answering fax enquiries and will
probably mail you a catalogue for free. They are also
capable of locating out of date obscure vinyl and CD's.
  -Andrew  torda@igc.ethz.ch

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

RecRec Genossenschaft
Magnusstrasse 5
8004, Zurich, SWITZERLAND
phone (Switzerland) -1 - 272 28 38
fax                 -1 - 273 05 25
A tiny chaotic shop in the shadow of the train station, but
serves as the retail outlet of the RecRec label (Fred Frith
and many others).
They also do mail order from the address above. Catalogue is not
free, but it is large and pleasantly opinionated. It's also
in German.
        - Andrew  torda@igc.ethz.ch

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

SI MUSIC, Postbus 938, 3800 AX Rotterdam, The Netherlands.
I Have a fax number for these guys somewhere, but I can't find it
right now. Anyway, I ordered from them one time, their service was
good, although a bit slow, and they also don't take plastic, so
you've got the foreign currency hassle again. They WILL trade for
new US progressive product (at least a guy named Rob Hannameyer
seemed like he was willing to do his). They have a really nice
magazine with reviews in dutch, which I understand about every
fourth word of, but they do have a lot of reviews, and a price list
is included in every issue for the stuff on their own SI label, as
well as other items reviewed in their magazine. First off, there's
really no need to order from SI directly, It's gonna cost an arm
and a leg, plus stateside dealers like Eurock, Ranjit, Doug Larson
and Symphonic carry most of the same stuff at far better prices.
Another thing I learned from my one and only order from SI is that
if the stateside guys don't carry something, there's usually a
pretty good reason for it. My SI order was $ 120 for three of the
worst discs in my collection, plus a fourth I could've gotten for
a lot less stateside a few weeks later had I waited and been more
patient.    - Peter Thelen

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 
STANISLAV HAPLA 
Jungmannova 7/692, 736 01 Havirov-Mesto, Czechoslovakia
A possible source for East European CD releases. 

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

TAXIM RECORDS, Postfach 10 11 43, 2900 Bremen 1, West Germany
<catalog in german only>
I originally got referred to Taxim when I wrote directly to Line
Records looking for a distributor for their product. I've ordered
from them a bunch of times and have always had very good luck
(they
accept major credit cards as well, which simplifies things a lot
when ordering from overseas). They apparently no longer carry the
entire Line label and as such I've had difficulty finding things in
their catalog that I couldn't find from a domestic distributor, so
I haven't ordered anything in a year or so. Prices are very good. 
Catalog is a glossy mag, all in german.   - Peter Thelen

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
  
ULTIMA THULE, 1 Conduit Street, Leicester, LE2 0JN, UK
Ultima Thule is a store and mailorder business affiliated with
Audion Magazine. Offers a catalog of new items and rarities in
stock at the store at the above location. I think they ask for $2
cash for a newsletter/catalog and something more than that for a
more comprehensive catalog. The one catalog I saw had quite a
selection of rare lps, but the prices were "collectors" prices and
I think the catalog operated as an auction with the price listed
being the minimum bid.                     - Malcolm              

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

VINYL-VIRUS, P.O. Box 1164, 7526 U-Weiher, West Germany
Supposedly a source of bootlegs - I saw the address in a post to
rec.music.gdead where someone was asking for any more info on 
this place.                              - Malcolm 

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


That's it for now. We encourage re-distribution of this list, but
please keep it intact. Updates will be done periodically.

The Frederic Dannen quote at the top of this file is from a very interesting 
book about the music industry and the "Powers broker and fast money inside 
the music business" and the greed and ambition and occasional mob and other 
illegal connections of the industry. It's pretty ugly stuff and worth reading 
for a better understanding of why the artist is often the victim of the 
industry.

I'll send a current copy of this RESOURCES listing via regular mail
to anyone requesting it as long as a large SASE (with adequate
postage, maybe $1 in stamps) or an IRC is sent to me with the request. 

Please send any updates, additions and corrections to 

    malcolm@wrs.com
or
    Malcolm Humes, 2439A Tenth Street, Berkeley, CA 94710  

= END OF alt.music.progressive PROGRESSIVE ROCK MAILORDER LIST =
=============================================================================

Here's some additional vendors of emusic and other stuff, not yet merged 
in to the above file:

>From: "The Radio Gnome" <V2002A@VM.TEMPLE.EDU>
Subject:      Vendor list at last!

Hi Malcolm,

    Heres my list so far.  I've listed the vendors alphabetically. 
Individual artists follow.  After that is some comments about the
vendors that are already on your list (*asterisked).

> Acoustic Sounds
    Mostly classical.  A 'high end' dealer.  They have accesories
from target,
Nitty Gritty, etc.  Carry some out of print stuff on Chandos and
Blue Note Jazz.
    PO Box 2043
    Salina, KS 67402-2043

> Aftertouch
     A magazine more than a catalog. 
"Instumental/Jazz/Newage/Experimental"
Extensive reviews of each release, artist spotlights and listener
feedback.
Vehicle for the Computer Music Coalition.
    Computer Music Coalition
    1024 W. Wilcox Ave
    Peoria, Il 61604

> Alcazar
    Carry a pretty decent collection of new age, folk and
spoken/childrens
stuff.  They used to send quarterly updates in a newspaper form. 
Don't know
if they still do.
     Box 429
     South Main ST
     Waterbury, VT 05676             800-541-9904

> Ambient Music
    Not sure if they're still in business.  They used to carry a
decent
selection of electronic/new age stuff.
    18633 Topham St.
    Reseda, CA 91335

> Atlantis (Steve Joliffe)
     Have several of Steves solo stuff on cassette, including the
oop
'Journeys Out of the Body'.
    37450 47th ave S
    Auburn, WA 98001

> Batish Records
    The label for Aswin Batish and his family.  Mostly Indian
Classical, but
some of Ashwins stuff is fusionish, especially 'Sitar Power' which
is highly
recommended.
    1310 Mission Street
    Santa Cruz, CA 95060

> Backroads
    Extensive catalog of mostly new age/emusic.  A bit pricey and
they don't
stock vinyl.  They also have available radio station lists for
Echoes, Hearts of
Space Radio and Musical Starstreams.  They come out with regular
updates/new
release notes.  They can take special requests and have access to
some imports
from Europe.

> Cadence
    Extensive jazz/folk catalog which you must subscribe to.  Also
have some
avante-garde and fusion releases.
    Cadence Bldg
    Redwood, NY 13679

> CD Presents
     Carry a great selection of indie stuff.  Mostly college radio
oriented,
dance, reggae, psychedelic and hard core.  Distribute Wax Trax,
Roir,
Skyclad, Boner, Taang, C'est la Mort, Toxic Shock and others.
    1230 Grant Ave, suite 531
    San Francisco, CA 94133

>CRI - Composers Recordings Incorporated
    List over one hundred artists in their 1992 catalog.  Mostly
Neo-classical/
avante garde.  Lou Harrison, John Zorn, Milton Babbit, Harry
Partch, Otto
Leuning, Guy Klucesvek, etc...
    73 Spring St.  Suite 506
    New York, NY 10012-5800

> Daystar
     A small label.  Stuff by Heresy(prog), Ernest Woodall
(Emusic), Tony
Garone (avant-folk) and others.
        PO Box 411
        Hunt. Sta., NY 11746

> DA Music
    A lot like Backroads.  With a bit more jazz and instrumental.
    Box 3
    Little Silver, NJ 07739 USA

> Diffusion i Media (Canada)
    Carry some Canadian emusic indie artists like Michel Redolfi,
Bernard
Parmaging and others.  Only accept US postal MO, IMO or check
drawn
on a
Canadian bank.
    4487 Rue Adam
    Montreal (QC)
    Canada H1V 1T9

> Echo-discs
    Distribute the stuff you would hear on the program "Echoes". 
Mostly
newagey/emusic with some jazz/acoustic.
    PO Box 224
    Eagle, PA 19480

> Electronic Cottage
    I quote "...the magazine dedicated to electronic audio folk
art, cassette
culture and electronic & experimental music!  An inside look at the
indie music
scene featuring articles, profiles and editorials by home tapers
themselves!"
    Run by Hal McGee
    PO Box 3637
    Apollo Beach, FL 33572

> Fortuna
    They stopped sending me catalogs, don't know if they still sell
direct.
Wayside was lamenting that Fortuna won't sell in small quantities
to them
anymore.

> Generations Unlimited
    Focus tends to be on hard core electronics.  David Prescott,
Jorge
Thomasius and Conrad Schnitzler.  Also distribute Badland, Radium,
Pogus and
other labels.
    199 Strathmore #5
    Brighton, Ma 02135-5210

> Happy Squid
     Small indie label.  Stuff by Trotsky Icepick, Vena Cava, Dead
Moon,
El Kabong, etc...
        PO Box 94565
        Pasadena, CA 91109-4565

> Interdimensional (Iasos)
    Don't know if Iasos still sells direct.  One of the earlier new
age
artists.
    PO BOX 594
    Waldo Point
    Sausalito, CA 94965

> Independent Project
     An indie distributor.  Stuff by Woo, Sonic Youth, Red Temple
Spirits,
Drowning Pool, Abecedarians, etc...
        544 Mateo St
        Los Angeles, CA 90013

> Last Gasp
     Carry rock bios, books, songbooks as well as alternative
comix,
punk/new wave/rock comix and t-shirts.
    2180 Bryant St
    San Francisco, CA 94110

> Linden Music
    Carries Kit Watkins releases and other stuff by his cohorts in
Happy the
Man.
    PO Box 520
    Linden, VA 22642

> Lotus (England)
    Haven't ordered from them in eight years, don't know if they're
still in
business.  Wide selection of Prog/Emusic/Avante/etc...
23 High Street
Newcastle-under-Lyme
Staffordshire ST5 1QZ
Great Britain

> The Music Suite Ltd (England)
    Carry the complete Adrian Wagner collection as well as some
Indian
spiritual music.
    Cenarth, Newcastle Emlyn
    Dyfed SA38 9JN, Wales
    United Kingdom

> Craig Moerer
    Publishes an extensive list of records/CDs/45s/collectors
stuff.  Mostly
rock but some em/progressive stuff.  A lot of lesser known rock and
some
oldies.  Most of their vinyl is used but in vg to m- condition.
    PO Box 19231
    Portland, OR 97280

> Mirage (England)
    Last I checked (several years ago) this was a one man
operation,
Martin K Reed.  He has a decent variety of British indie electronic
musicians like Ian Boddy, Steve Frost and Mark Shreeve.
612 Southmead Road
Filton
Bristol BS12 7RF
Great Britain


> Playing By Ear
    David Hodgson runs this outfit.  Want lists are welcome.  He
seems well
versed in the avante garde/underground music scene.  He even called
me to let
me know the status of a big order I had placed.  He carries a
selection of
underground/avante/emusic stuff as well as CMP, Extreme music and
stuff from
Australia.
    1244 Mojave Dr.
    Colton, CA 92324

> Primary Records
     Another indie distribution point.  Imports and Domestics. 
Carry Sub Pop,
Sarah, Summershine (Australia), Hangman and other labels.
    P.O. Box 8247
    Long Beach, CA 90808-0247

> Parasol/Cargo
    YAID...  Yet another indie distributor.  Everything from AAAK
to Hector
Zazou, also imports on Creation.
    201 north coler
    Urbana, IL 61801
> Projekt
    Carry some unusual emusic by Black Tape for a Blue Girl,
Thanatos,
Fragments of Benediction, etc...  Definite stream of conciousness
stuff here!
    8951 sw 53rd st.
    Cooper City, FL 33328-5135

> Proton/Neutron
    David Prescott, If-Bwana, Alien Planetscapes, Test Dept., Mars
Everywhere,
Mental Anguish, Nomuzic... You get the picture.
    Carl Howard
    209-25 18 Ave
    Bayside, NY 11360

> Poison Plant
    A small label.  Emusic/ambient by Jack Hurwitz, Ben Kettlewell,
etc.
    PO Box 19623
    Alexandria, VA 22320
> Rotz
    Carry mostly hardcore from the look of things, some German
imports.
Negazione, The Undead, Resistors, Capitol Punishment,
Schwarzenshafe, etc...
    17 N. Elizabeth St.
    Chicago, Il 60607-1911

> ROIR
    A successful cassette only label, Neil Coopers venture.  Funk,
house, ska
thrash, etc...
    601 Broadway, suite 411
    New York, NY 10012

> Silent
    Carry stuff by Merzbow, Art Bears, Von Magnet,
Einsturzendneubauten, Big
Butter, etc...
    540 Alabama, suite 315
    San Francisco, CA 94110

> Starkman Concern
     Not sure if they're still in business.  I think Nate Starkman
might
even work with Independent Project (see above).

> Synkronos Music
    Chuck Vanzyl is the man behind Synkronos.  He is the off-weekly
host of the
radio program "Starsend" on 88.5FM WXPN in Philadelphia, Sunday
1-6AM.
"Starsend" has been running in this time slot for more than 12
years.  As more
and more local artists were influenced by the emusic, acoustic
ambient and
sound sculpture being played on "Starsend" they began producing
tapes of their
own.  Synkronos is a clearing house for some of that local talent. 
The Night-
crawlers, D. Andrew Rath and Art Cohen are the mainstays along with
Xisle which
is Vanzyl, Rath and Peter Gulch of the Nightcrawlers.

        Synkronos Music
        PO Box 22
        Upper Darby, PA 19082   USA


> UK/USA
    Not sure if they're still in business.  They merged with Shanes
Record
Finding Service a number of years back.  They carried the same sort
of
stock as Craig Moerer.
no address


> Woodall Communications
    Ernest Woodalls self run label.  Never actually heard his work,
but its
advertised as emusic.
    7 Maplewood Rd
    Huntingdon, Sta., NY 11746



-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*


> Individual artist contacts

> George Boutz
    Has only one tape out that I know of, now several years old,
"Amber 7".
Its spacey sequencer driven emusic in the Schulze/TD tradition,
very good.
    930 Palm Av. #320
    Los Angeles, CA 90069   USA

> Thom Brennan
    His tape "Mountains" is great!  Sounds more like Software than
Software.
Produced by Steve Roach.
    TMB Music
    24256 Hatteras St
    Woodland Hills, CA 91367

> Charles Cohen
    Apparently has done compositions for some performance art. 
Former(?)
member of the Ghostwriters with Jeff Caine.  Mostly Emusic of a
more
experimental/artsy type.
    PO box 181
    Riverton, NJ 08077

> Jesse Clark - Another Emusic hometaper.  Former member of
'Syntegrity' with
Tom Masapollo.  Part of the Synkronos crowd.
Jesse Clark             His latest, Locked in Heaven is his best,
but
710 Eton-Adelphia Rd.   earlier releases are also good, especially
Freehold, NJ 07728      "CAMELIA"

> Committee for Progressive Radio
    Jim is trying to get as much exposure for local talent as he
can.  At one
point he had Mission Control opening up for Echolyn.  Handles local
EM/prog
acts.
c/o Jim Frank
277 E 3rd Ave
Trappe, PA 19426

> Alan Loucks
    A home taper, electronics.
    2837 34th Av West
    Seattle, WA 98199

> Tom Masapollo - Former member of 'Syntegrity'.  Has played live
with Dan
Mckinny of M-Faktr.
1329 Maple Ave
Haddon Heights, NJ 08035

> Rand Royal/Mission Control - Prog/electronic/unusual guitar
sounds.
3520 Hale Road
Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006

> D. Andrew Rath
    One third of Xisle, the Emusic trio that haunts Philadelphia
and its
environs, has several cassettes of Emusic.
    58 Marboro Lane
    Willingboro, NJ 08046

> Perry Thompson
    Has only one demo tape "Sleeping Giants".  Very Richard
Burmeresque.
70 Sproul Rd.
Malvern, PA 19355

> George Wallace
    Makes some excellent Emusic.  Dreamy and earthy at the same
time.
Start with his CD "Communion".
    Larger Than Life Music
    10 Belmont, Sq
    Doylestown, PA 18901


NEW ALBION RECORDS, 584 Castro #515, San Francisco, CA 94114
415.621.5757 fax- 415.621.4711
A label that specializes in 20th Century classical stuff like John
Cage, Reich, Dresher, etc.



Article 18278 of alt.music.progressive:
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From: borella@cs.ucdavis.edu (Bi-weekly FAQL autoposter)
Subject: a.m.p FAQL #3: publications concerning progressive music
Message-ID: <FAQL3_756758437@news.ucdavis.edu>
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Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1993 18:39:16 GMT
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                        alt.music.progressive FAQL #3
		  publications concerning progressive music
                                Revision: 2.0

                      Last Modified: December 23, 1993

                         maintained by Mike Borella
                          (borella@cs.ucdavis.edu)

This is 1 of 5 FAQLs. The others are:

FAQL #1: an intro to alt.music.progressive
FAQL #2: mail order sources for progressive music
FAQL #4: general frequently asked questions (in preparation)
FAQL #5: internet sources for progressive music 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
New or changed in this revision:
        Reformatted 
        General editing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

			=======================================
			PROGRESSIVE MUSIC PUBLICATIONS LISTING 
			=======================================

A resource list of magazines, fanzines, newsletters which focus on progressive 
rock music and otherwise hard to find experimental obscurities.

When contacting any of the publications listed here it's probably a good idea 
to enclose an IRC or two (International Reply Coupon) to assure that it's
easy for them to respond with subscription info and maybe sample issues. It's
probably not a bad idea to enclose a return address label too, if it's not
hard for you to do so. I always like to make it as simple as possible for 
them to respond to me. Prices and addresses listed may be inaccurate or out of
date. No guarantee of accuracy is implied and we hope that those who are in 
contact with the publications listed here will help keep this as up to date as 
possible. 

Please email additions, revisions and comments to malcolm@wrs.com.

How to read this file :
-------------
   PUBLICATION NAME               This data presumed current as of: MM/DD/YY
   ADDRESS LINE 1 
   ADDRESS LINE 2                     Editor/Contact: XXXXXX XXXXXX
   COUNTRY, ETC
        Scope/Musical domain: SUBJECT TO INDIVIDUAL TASTES, THIS IS PER MUSEA
        Language: XXXXXXXXX        Format: PAPER SIZE, COLOR vs. B&W, etc.

Data Presumed Current as of field - this list was first collated during 
September through December, 1992, and any addresses and costs listed are 
presumed current as of that time. To prevent any misunderstandings we advise 
you to confirm subscription fees or costs before mailing any payment to any 
place listed here. Addresses and prices are subject to unexpected changes and 
it's highly likely that some of these publications no longer exist. If you 
are in recent contact with any of the folks listed here please feel free to 
let me know so I can update the "Current-as-of" field to show the place still 
exists or that any prices listed are still current. 
 
EUROPEAN PAPER SIZES (as shown in "format" field:
Common paper sizes employed in Europe and Japan. Many of the listings 
use this format because the basic list was done in France. In some cases 
the entry may be approximated with publications from the US or other areas not
using the European paper standard sizes. 
A3 = 11.7" x 16.5"  (roughly equivalent to US standard 11"x17")
A4 = 8.3"x 11.7" (roughly equivalent to US 8"x11" standard)
A5 = 5.8" x 8.3"
B4 = 10.1" x 14.3"
B5 = 7.2 = x 10.1"
B6 = 5.1" x 7.2"   

====================================================================
PROGRESSIVE MUSIC PUBLICATIONS LISTING, SORTED BY COUNTRY OF ORIGIN:
====================================================================

+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Bang                              This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Boulevard Amspach, 165
   1000 Bruxelles                     Editor/Contact: Michel Kirby
   Belgium
        Scope/Musical domain: various
        Language: Belgian (French   Format: A4 26pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Facelift                          This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   39, Nicolas Road
   Manchester  M21 1LG                Editor/Contact: Phil Howitt
   ENGLAND
        Scope/Musical domain: Canterbury prog
        Language: English           Format: Fanzine A5 40 pp. BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Blindsight                        This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   21 Midmills road
   Inverness IVZ #NZ                  Editor/Contact: Robert Mc Illwraight
   Scotland, UK
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: English           Format: A5 50pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Freak Beat                        This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   "Moon willow"
   23 Fieldway, Chalfont St Peter     Editor/Contact: Richard Allen
   Gerrards Cross, Buck SL9 9SG
   UK
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: English           Format: A5 BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Acid Dragon                       This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   20 rue Ferrandiere
   69002 LYON                         Editor/Contact: Thierry Sportouche
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: French+English    Format: A5 20pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Arpeges                           This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   2 Allee des glaieuls
   25000 Besancon                     Editor/Contact: Thierry Bosson
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: French            Format: A4 50pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Crystal Lake                      This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   BP 177
   75224 Paris                        Editor/Contact: Crystal Lake
   (also see email address!)
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: prog jazz electronic
        Language: French            Format: A5 50pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Dyadique                          This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   113, rue Pelleport
   33000 Bordeaux                     Editor/Contact:
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: Electronic, industrial, +
        Language: French            Format: Newsletter,A5,BW10pp

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Musea Magazine                    This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   68, La Tinchotte
   57117 Retonfey                     Editor/Contact:
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: French            Format: A5 40pp BW+color

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Musiques sophistiquees            This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   1 rue du 4 sept
   13170 Les Pennes-Mirabeaux         Editor/Contact: Olivier Coron
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: intellectual prog
        Language: French            Format: A5 30pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Notes                             This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   130 rue de Verdun
   92800 Puteaux                      Editor/Contact: Cyrille Beerens
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: prog+avant-guarde+jazz...
        Language: French            Format: A4 50pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Oniric magazine                   This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   1 rue Goya
   13870 Rognonas                     Editor/Contact: Cyril Pelletey
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: prog, electronic, new-age
        Language: French            Format: A4 14pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 PRESTO                            This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   10, place A. Tacq
   59000 Lille                        Editor/Contact:
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: Avant-garde, many uncommo
        Language: French            Format: Mag, ~100pp A4 BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Varia                             This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   150 rue Paul Bert
   69003 LYON                         Editor/Contact: Laurent Gaillard
   France
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: French            Format: A5 40pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Carpe Diem                        This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Brandenburger St 4
   6073 Egelsbah                      Editor/Contact: Tim Stecher
   Germany
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: ??(eng or german  Format: A4 50pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Fachblatt                         This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Falltorstr. 13-15
   5060 Bergish Gladbach 1            Editor/Contact: Horst Stachelhaus
   Germany
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: German            Format: ??

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Sophisticated Rock Magazine       This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Banatersrt. 27
   4100 DUISBOURG 18                  Editor/Contact: Ulrich Lill
   Germany
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: ??(eng or german  Format: A4 20pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 A little angry                    This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   2st Mary's Park road
   Portishead, Bristol Bs20 8QN       Editor/Contact: Duncan Harris
   Great Britain
        Scope/Musical domain: neo-prog
        Language: English           Format: fanzine A5 50pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Arlequins                         This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   c/o Serena Franceschini
   Via Bassa 30                       Editor/Contact: Ricardo Maranghi
   50018 SCANDICI
   Italy
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: Italian           Format: A5 45pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Flash Europa                      This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Via Messina 46
   00198 ROMA                         Editor/Contact: Paola Ceci
   Italy
        Scope/Musical domain: Hard rock w/prog page
        Language: Italian           Format: A4 color, luxuous?

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Freak out                         This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Via Pasanti 212
   84018 SCAFATI (SA)                 Editor/Contact: Alex Colasanto
   Italy
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: Italian           Format: fanzine. A5. 50pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Paperlate                         This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Via Sismondi 61
   20133 Milano                       Editor/Contact: Ezio Candrini
   Italy
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: Italian           Format: A5 40pp BW
 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

  The Noisy Room
    16 Via dell'Abetone
    38068 Rovereto (TN)                      Editor/Contact: Marco Olivotto
    Italy                                        olivotto@itnvax.cineca.it
       Scope/Musical domain: mostly progressive/electronics, with occasional
                             diversions
       Language: English/Italian (TWO editions)        Format: A4 6pp BW
       Subscription fee: One SASE or IRC per issue (four issues per year)
       Material to be reviewed is always welcome!

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Tomy                              This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Via Umberto I,146
   33034 Fagagna (Udine)              Editor/Contact: Mauro Missina
   Italy
        Scope/Musical domain: avant-guarde
        Language: Italian           Format: A4 40pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Marquee                           This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   404 SY BLG
   3-15-18 SHIMO OCHIAI               Editor/Contact:
   SHIJUKU, TOKYO 161
   Japan
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: Japanese          Format: A4 100pp BW+color

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Art-Rock                          This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   42-7 Oryu-dong
   Kurogu                             Editor/Contact: Chun Sik Lee
   Seoul 152-101
   Korea
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: Korean            Format: A4 100pp BW+color

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Music People                      This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Room 518 Kyung-Do B/O
   44-14 Yoido dong, yongdeung Po-Ku  Editor/Contact:
   Seoul
   Korea
        Scope/Musical domain: hard, prog
        Language: Korean            Format: A4 100pp BW+color

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 SI magazine                       This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Postbus 938
   3000 AX Rotterdam                  Editor/Contact: SI magazine
   Pays bas??
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: English           Format: A5 32pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Fonorama                          This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   PO Box 114
   31-829 Krakow 31                   Editor/Contact: Fonorama
   Poland
        Scope/Musical domain: prog+various
        Language: Polish            Format: A5 40pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Sete                              This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   Calcada do Galvao
   Lote D- 3' esq                     Editor/Contact: Miguel Santos
   1400 LISBOA
   Portugal
        Scope/Musical domain: avant-garde
        Language: Portugese?        Format:

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 Roka                              This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   PO Box 599
   Riga-47                            Editor/Contact: Dainis Bushmanis
   226047 Latvia
   Republique de Lettonie
        Scope/Musical domain: prog+avant-garde
        Language: Russian?          Format: A5 20pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
 I/E Magazine                      This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   2300 N. Yucca
   Chandler Az 85224                  Editor/Contact: Darren Bergstein
   USA
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: English           Format: A5 40pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Music uncovered                   This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   1528-231 St SW
   Bothell, WA 98???                  Editor/Contact: Louis Hesselt-van-Dinter
   USA
        Scope/Musical domain: prog+uncovered music !
        Language: English           Format: newsletter A4 4pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 ND                                This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   PO box 4144
   Austin, Texas 78765                Editor/Contact: ND
   USA
        Scope/Musical domain: all
        Language: English           Format: A4 60pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

 Progression                       This data presumed current as of 10/01/91
   PO Box 7164
   Lowell, MA 01852                   Editor/Contact: Progression
   USA
        Scope/Musical domain: prog
        Language: English           Format: A4 10pp BW

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+



I./E.
> For those of you  that are not geting you literary fill from reading
> the 'Net, there is a new magazine devoted to progressive (as defined
> by the charter of the alt.music.progressive newgroup.
> It is called "i./e." and a US subscription runs $10.00 for four issues.
> For further info, write:
> 
> Think Tank Tomes
> 2300 N. Yucca
> Chandler, AZ 85224
> 
> (602) 821-1061
> 
> I just looked thru the one sample issue and saw such articles as "It's
> OK to like Marillion".  - Craig Shipleyaka: craigs@pyrdc.va.pyramid.com

If I were asked to name a similar magazine, the
UK Audion would be the closest in scope.  To give a little better scope as
to what i./e. is going to cover, in the premire issue, such labels as
Musea and Erdenklang were covered, there were interviews of Steve
Roach and Kit Watkins, numerous reviews of  progressive rock, electronic
music, avant-garde and experimental music. Issue two is going cover
Djam Karet & Steve Hackett. 

>  - Craig Shipley aka: craigs@pyrdc.va.pyramid.com

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

> PTOLEMIC TERRASCOPE
> 58 WEST END
> MELKSHIRE SN12 6HJ
> ENGLAND
> One issue I saw had an interview with Wyatt and part 2 of one with Richard
> Sinclair (Caravan, Camel, Hatifeild & the north) and they seem to cover a lot
> of the Canterbury UK scene. The next issue covered more obscure stuff I
> mostly wasn't too familiar with. Each issue comes with a 7" EP. Subscription 
> is $24 for 4 issues, but you have to send an International Money order which 
> costs a few more bucks. But I can find them occasionally at Tower Records or 
> another local store. It's published by the guitar player from Bevis Frond. 
> 
> Travelers checks in dollars or, or checks in Sterling Pounds. Cash ok but 
> at your own risk. 
> - malcolm@wrs.com

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

GOLDMINE
SAMPLE COPY DEPARTMENT
700 E. State Street
Iola, WI 54990

Covers some progressive music and has many ads for dealers of collectables and
bootlegs. Will send free sample issue on request. International requests for
samples require some payment. 
International fees? Fax number? 

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


PROGRESSION
> |> Progression - a magazine about progressive music. PO BOX 7164, Lowell, 
> |> MA 01852. 
> I have the first issue of this right here.  It evidently rose from the
> ashes of what used to be "On Reflection".  (I never saw an issue
> of "On Reflection".)  This sample issue cost me $3, and the U.S. 
> subscription rate is $18 per year (6 bi-monthly issues).  Outside the
> U.S., it's $23.  Back issues available for $4 in the U.S., $4.50 
> elsewhere.  I can send you ad rates if you are interested.  The 
> publisher/editor/writer is John Collinge, and he invites anyone
> and everyone to send in their contributions.  First issue is 10
> pages long.  Articles topics include ELP's new album/tour, Tull
> "unplugged" tour, Steve Hogarth of Marillion, and Adrian Belew. 
> There are a few ads for prog-related merchandise (Jethro Tull '93
> calendar).  --> marshall@emavp04.webo.dg.com (Marshall Wood)
> ----
> >Progression - a magazine about progressive music. PO BOX 7164, Lowell, 
> >MA 01852. 
>
> It's the logical successor to a previous 'zine, costing $18, put
> out of Cambridge, and called 'APEX' or something similar.  Good quality,
> Mac-produced.  The problem I have is that I paid $18 for the previous
> magazine, which folded six issues into my subscription.  I didn't get my
> money back, but hey, that's what you have to deal with when you're subscribing
> to 'zines.
> 
> It appears to center around Tull (the previous newletter centered
> around Gentle Giant).
> 
>  - rar@balungan.west.sun.com (Rob Rosen)
> -----------------------
> >Progression - a magazine about progressive music. 
> Seemed like a very narrow scope focusing on the mainstream artists.  
> Most of the issue I saw was on ELP and Adrian Belew. 
> - borella@netcom.com (Mike Borella)

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

THE OCCASIONAL GENTLE GIANT NEWSLETTER
> The first issue came out in March of 1992, and is 16 pages
> long.  From the last page:
> 
> "The Occasional Gentle Giant Newsletter was edited by Geir Hasnes
> and published by Classica Forlag AS, Trondheim, Norway, March 1992.
> 100 copies were printed.
> The newsletter will be issued as often as I manage to get it out,
> though not so often as for instance _A New Day_ [ Tull newsletter ].
> It all depends on the number of letters with interesting material
> in it.  Cost will be used to cover production and postage, of which
> the latter is, believe me, awfully high in Norway.  Please don't
> get angry for the price - I or my company will earn nothing for 
> this publication.
> I will take subscriptions for four issues at a time.  Subscription
> prices:  Scandinavia NKR 60.-, Rest of Europe NKR 70.-, Overseas
> NKR 80.-.  The payment should be sent to Classica Forlag AS, Ragnhilds 
> gt. 10, N-7030 Trondheim, Norway.  Postal giro account 0824 01 97538.
> Please don't send cheques in foreign currency, it costs so much to
> cash them.  You may, however, send 6 English pounds or $12 in cash."
> --> marshall@emavp04.webo.dg.com (Marshall Wood)

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+

Ork Alarm!
Paul Mummery's newsletter on Magma
Isuue #5 contains an enormous family tree/discography, for  L 1.50 (pounds).
REgular issues for a 50p stamp (or 2 IRCs)
Paul Mummery, 3 Rudland Road
Bexleyheath, Kent
DA7 6DB  UK

 +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+


===========================
CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE:
===========================
The basic publication list data is mostly courtsey of Musea, via Yannick 
Lallement (lallemen@ese-metz.fr or lallemen@loria.fr). Many thanks for their 
sharing this information so that others can benefit from it! I've reformatted 
the data into a database and will be adding the other publications to this as 
time permits. For now I've just added a section at the end with the ones not 
yet added, and for those with comments from people who are familiar with the 
publication listed. 

If anyone has any comments or additional info on any of the publications 
listed please forward this info to me so it can be included in a future 
revision of this list. 

                                   - malcolm@wrs.com
                                     Malcolm Humes



SOME ADDITIONS YET TO BE MERGED AND REFORMATTED:

>From: borella@cs.ucdavis.edu (Mike Borella)
Subject: Additions to pub list
 
Here they are - I hope I didn't repeat anything.
 
Let's give credit where credit is due - I only typed these up.  Kurt Rongey,
who runs the Long Dark Music label, compiled the list.  The comments and 
info is all from him, though I condensed or paraphrased some of the info.
 
Kurt will send anyone a copy of the LDM JournaLIST (which is where I got
this info from) for free with a SASE or IRC.
 
Long Dark Music
PO Box 582
Jenks OK 74037-0582
USA
 
-Mike

================

In English:

-----------

A Flower?
c/o J. Goodwin
26 Elmsworth Rd
Blurton, Stoke-on-Trent
Staffs ST3 3ET
England

#1 per issue.
Issue #2 had Grace Blyndsyde, IQ, Fariport Convention, Casual Affair,
Geoff Mann, + interviews with Red Jasper & Galahad

------

Audion
PO Box 225
Leicester LE2 1DX
England

#1.60 per issue

Covers progressive, avant-garde, electronic and everything in between

------

Background Progressive Rock Magazine
PO Box 875
5280 Boxtel
The Netherlands

NLG 25.00 per 6 issues in Europe, NLG 30.00 outside Europe

Concentrates on reviews of albums by new acts, news and some
re-issues.  Covers a wide range of progressive music.

-----

Blindsight
c/o G. Younger
113 Airlie Halls,
Airlie Pl.
Dundee, Scotland
DD1 4HQ

#1.50 per issue

#4 had Citizen Cain, Jadis, Grace and Galahad
------
 
Camera Obscura
c/o Mark Tucker
1508 Faymont
Manhattan Beach CA 90266.
USA

No info or prices available

------

Canterbury Nachrichten
c/o Manfred Bress
Nikolaistr. 90
D-4100 Duisburg
Germany

Devoted to the Canterbury scene.  No prices available.

------

Feedback
c/o Kev Rowland
13 The Mead
Glorymead, Goodwyns
Dorking, Surrey
RH4 2NG England

No prices available

The magazine of Mensa's rock interest group.  Strong interest in
progressive.

--------

Lullabye Letter
c/o North American Robert Wyatt Apreciation Society
9690 NE Adolf Rd. 
Newberg OR 97132-7000
USA

Grass roots zine on Wyatt.  Supposedly very good.

-----

Option
2345 Westwood Blvd Suite 2
Los Angeles CA 90064
USA

US$15.45 per 6 issues

Independent acts, including progressive artists, mostly Canterbury and
RIO.

-----

The Organ
PO Box 790 
London E17 5RF
England

$5/#1 per issue
#2 per issue in Europe

"On the cutting edge of anarchic prog journalism."

Issue 30 had IQ, Frog, Camel, FInal Conflict and the mag is organizing
an Enid reunion.

-----

Silhobbit
63 Kingsland Rd
Boxmore, Hemel Hempstead
Herts HP1 1QD
England

No prices available

Not too seriosu?  #9 had new about Mick Pointer and the rise of
Satanic prog in Belgium.  And some serious reviews and stuff.

------

Synthesis
219 Napfle St.
Philadelphia PA 19111
USA

$5 per 4 issues, $7 overseas.

Electronic oriented.  Claims not to be interested in art rock but has
had info on Kit Watkins.

------

=============

In French:

============

Entr' Rock 'n' Roll
32 Rue Leopold Bellan
75002 Paris
France

A non-profressional organization that helps out with prog gigs in
France.  The newsletter has album and concert reviews.
 
-------

Harmonie
15 Avenue du Bearn
33127 Martignas-sur-Jalle
France

FF100 per 3 issues

Highly regarded prog zine that covers new releases and reissues.
"Big and gorgeous"

------

The Rhythm and the Reason
1 Rue du 4 Septembre
13170 Les Pennes Mirabeau
France

FF40 per 2 issues in Europe, FF50 outside Europe

Discusses prog rock's place in society as well as reviews and info.
Includes info on music distribution, large vs. small labels, and the
nature of collecting things

------

Notes
16 Rue Hignard
44000 Nantes 
France

FF150 per 6 issues

Progressive, avant-garde and experiemental.  Includes Canterbury and
RIO info.

-------

Operation Cocktail Rock Progressif
BP 2451
38034 Grenoble Cedex 2
France

A french prog rock appreciation and contact society.  Newsletter with
goings on of bands all over the world.

-------

========

In Italian
=========
 
Arlequins
Strada di Busseto 17,
53100 Sienna 
Italy

$20 per 3 issues (17000 Lira in Europe)

Concerntrates on Italian scene but includes many new bands.  Lots of
news and reviews of demos.

------

Freak Out
c/o Alex Colasanto
Via Passanti 212
84018 Scafati (SA)
Italy

12000 Lira per 4 issues

Anything non-mainstream is a go, esp. prog rock.  Naturally,
concetrating on Italian bands.






Article 18279 of alt.music.progressive:
Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!usc.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!agate!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!usenet
From: borella@cs.ucdavis.edu (Bi-weekly FAQL autoposter)
Subject: a.m.p FAQL #5 - internet sources for progressive music info
Message-ID: <FAQL5_756758437@news.ucdavis.edu>
Sender: usenet@ucdavis.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: University of California, Davis
Date: Fri, 24 Dec 1993 18:39:21 GMT
Expires: Fri, 21 Jan 1994 18:40:37 GMT
Lines: 352


		        alt.music.progressive FAQL #5
		  internet sources for progressive music info
                                Revision: 1.0

                      Last Modified: December 23, 1993

                         maintained by Mike Borella
                          (borella@cs.ucdavis.edu)


This is 1 of 5 FAQLs. The others are:

FAQL #1: an intro to alt.music.progressive
FAQL #2: mail order sources for progressive music
FAQL #3: publications concerning progressive music
FAQL #4: general frequently asked questions (in preparation)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
New or changed in this revision:
        General editing
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a regularly posted list of where to find progressive
rock info on the Internet.  The listing includes mailing lists, ftp
sites and some discussion of newsgroups.  Through these sources you
can find lyrics, discographies, reviews, articles, interviews, and
much, much more on your favorite progressive bands.

If you get tired of seeing this posted regularly put the subject line
in your kill file for alt.music.progressive. With many newsreaders you can
just hit "K".  However, you risk missing useful and informative updates.
 

Part 1: Progressive rock related mailing lists through email/Internet
---------------------------------------------------------------------

What is a mailing list? It's a group of users with a special
interest topic that unites them via email. Any mail sent to the 
list address is "exploded" by being sent to everyone on the
subscription list. The lists can reach up to hundreds or thousands
of music fans or other folks with mutual interests. Lists are  
available as regular (separate mail for each post) or digest format. 

Some lists are moderated - the moderator may request that
a post be edited or may refuse to post it if the content considered
off-topic. This may sound "fascist", but in reality there are few
situations where post content is censored or edited. One example is
a list where discussion of trading bootlegs is forbidden by the
management of the site that "owns" the mailing list. Unfortunately,
there is no "guarantee of free speech" on computer networks, and there 
also is the implicit assumption that anything you email or post may be 
read by many people. Most people aren't very concerned about this, but
public discussions of potentially illegal actions such as trading
tapes, bootlegs or otherwise is at your risk and should probably be
done with some discretion.  In theory mailing lists can reach a lot of 
people who have email but can't get Usenet news. Mailing lists tend to 
have less "noise" posts and flames because of a smaller, more focused
audience. 

For solo and spinoff acts discussions might take place on related
lists (like, Fish might be discussed on the Marillion list, and
Brand X on the Genesis list, Bruford, Levin and Belew on the King
Crimson list, Bruford on the Yes list, Bruford on just about any
list...). 

Most mailing lists have a -request or administrative
address for subscriptions and *unsubscriptions*. Save the intro to
any list you subscribe or keep track of the admin address when you
want to unsubscribe. Many people post subscribe and unsub messages to 
the list mailer addresses, unwittingly sending them to up to hundreds of
other subscribers. Some list administrators do not
regularly read the mailing list posts or have automated the
subscription process, so use the admin address for any admin
requests. Listserv or Bitnet mailing lists typically have a listserv@ 
address you use instead of a -request. Some of the smaller, digested lists 
use no administrative address and all mail is sent to one address. 

These lists are included because someone suggested we put them here, not 
because I assume these are progressive rock related lists. 

		-----------------------------------------

Band:			Dream Theater
Admin Address:		ytsejam-request@bnf.com
Moderator Address:	ytsejam-owner@bnf.com 

Comments:

	Ytsejam, the Dream Theater mailing list concerns itself with Dream 
	Theater past, present, and future.  To subscribe, email:

	subscribe ytsejam <Your Name>

	to ytsejam-request@bnf.com 

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Emerson, Lake, & Palmer
Admin Address: 		j.arnold@bull.com
Moderator Address: 	j.arnold@bull.com (John Arnold)

Comments: N/A

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Peter Gabriel
Admin Address:		listserv@merle.acns.nwu.edu
Moderator Address: 	germuska@antioch.acns.nwu.edu (Joe Germuska)
 
Comments:

	FTP archives available. Digest form available also.
 
        +++             +++             +++             +++
 
Band:			Genesis
Admin Address:		genesis-serv@cs.unca.edu
Moderator Address:	mcmahan@cs.unca.edu (Scott McMahan)

Comments:
 
  	Send a message with "HELP" in the body for details on how to use
  	the server to subscribe. (This is *totally* automated!)

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Name:			Gibraltar (Progressive Rock)
Admin Address:		gib@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu
Moderator Address:	piscine@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu (Mike Taylor)

Comments:

	The list covers general Progressive Rock topics like 
	alt.music.progressive and has a very useful archive server. Send 
	mail to  gibraltar-server@maestro.mitre.org with the subject line
	of "help" (without the quotes. :^)) and it'll tell you how to 
	retrieve files via email. The same files may be available through 
	ftp at ftp.uwp.edu or ortega.cs.ucdavis.edu.  There's a very    
  	outdated topical index of the issues of the digest which is useful for 
  	finding references to specific bands in back issues. 

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band: 			Peter Hammill / Van Der Graaf Generator
Admin Address:		ph7-request@bnf.com
Moderator Address:	ph7-owner@bnf.com

Comments:

	The ph7 mailing list concerns itself with the music and writings
    	of Peter Hammill and related bands such as Van Der Graaf Generator.
    	Recent discussions have included comments on Random Hold, Fripp,
    	The Long Goodbye and Peter Hammill's two books of lyrics, poems,
    	and short stories.  To subscribe, send:

  	subscribe ph7 <Your Name>

    	to ph7-request@bnf.com

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Allan Holdsworth 
Admin Address:		atavachron@morekypr.morehead-st.edu
Moderator Address:	preston@morekypr.morehead-st.edu
 
  	A digested list that discusses Allan's music and session work. 

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			IQ
Admin Address: 		nmd@newton.npl.co.uk
Moderator Address:	nmd@newton.npl.co.u 

Comments:

	Also included is discussion of related bands such as Jadis, Niadem's 
   	Ghost and the Lens, as well as to a smaller degree, lesser 
   	known bands on the English club/prog scene.

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Jethro Tull
Admin Address:		jtull-request@remus.rutgers.edu
Moderator Address:	steiner@bakerst.rutgers.edu (Dave Steiner)
 
        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Kansas
Admin Address:		rew@world.std.com
Moderator Address:	rew@world.std.com (Ryan Waldron)
 
        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			King Crimson, Robert Fripp and related artists 
Admin Address:		toby@cs.man.ac.uk
Moderator Address:	toby@cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard)

Comments:

 	Digested list. Archives at ftp.uwp.edu with discography(ies?) also.

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Marillion / Fish
Admin Address:		freaks-request@bnf.com
Moderator Address:	freaks-owner@bnf.com 

Comments:

    	The freaks mailing list is the oldest of the bnf.com progressive
    	rock mailing lists.  It deals with Marillion, Fish, and other related
    	bands.  To subscribe, send:

  	subscribe freaks <Your Name>

    	left justified as the first thing in your message to
    	freaks-request@bnf.com

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Steve Morse and the Dixie Dregs
Admin Address:		blickstein@dregs.enet.dec.COM
Moderator Address:	blickstein@dregs.enet.dec.COM
 
        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Mike Oldfield
Admin Address:		HART@vtcc1.cc.vt.edu
Moderator Address:	HART@vtmath.math.vt.edu (Heath) 

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Pink Floyd
Admin Address:		echoserv@fawnya.tcs.com (automated server)
			echoes-request@fawnya.tcs.com (manual un/subscribe)
Moderator Address:	bear@tcs.co

Comments:

   	To subscribe send mail to the server (echoserv@fawnya.tcs.com) with

     	Subscription: add echoes 
        	  or  add-digest echoes

  	or you can mail to echoes-request@fawnya.tcs.com to susbcribe manually 

  	Archive server has lists of rare releases, huge FAQ, interviews etc. 
  	You can get info on how to use the server to retrieve files, reviews of
  	rarities discs and interviews and other info by sending mail to the
  	echoserv address with the text body:

  	help
  	quit

        +++             +++             +++             +++
 
Band: 			Rush
Admin Address:		rush-request@syrinx.umd.edu
Moderator Address:	rush-mgr@syrinx.umd.edu

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Tangerine Dream
Admin Address:		tadream-request@cs.uwp.edu
Moderator Address:	datta@cs.uwp.edu (Dave Datta)
 
        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band: 			Vangelis
Admin Address:		direct-request@ctsx.celtech.com
Moderator Address:	N/A

        +++             +++             +++             +++

Band:			Yes 
Admin Address:		hunnicutt@vxc.ocis.uncwil.edu
Moderator Address:	hunnicutt@vxc.ocis.uncwil.edu

Comments:
 
	Yes and Anderson-Bruford-Wakeman-Howe related. Newsletter: "Notes
  	From The  Edge".

  	NFTE Server (lyrics, backissues, discography, rarities, surveys,
  	GIFs):  Automated. For help send mail with subject line "send main
  	help" to  yes-archive@meiko.com


Part 2: FTP sites
-----------------

The primary FTP site for progressive-related information is:

ortega.cs.ucdavis.edu

The directories include: articles, concert reviews, discographies,
interviews, Gibraltar backissues, album reviews, and much more,
including the latest version of these FAQL files.

The administrator of the site is Mike Borella (me!) and you can reach
me at borella@cs.ucdavis.edu if you have comments, question, or
submissions.  Note that this is a moderated site - you can't just dump
files there.  I select the info that I deem most useful.  Since the
site has limited space, I don't store GIFs (or any other for of
graphics) or sound samples.

Most of the musical discographies, lyrics, interviews and other info can 
be found at: 

ftp.uwp.edu 

This site also has a number of mailing list archives and other info. 

If you're not sure you can ftp ask your sysamdin folks or if you're
on a unix system type "man ftp" to see if you have an online man page.


Part 3: The progressive re-organization scheme
----------------------------------------------

Malcolm Humes has suggested a move to create a rec.music group for
progressive music.  He writes:

  "Another Usenet newsgroup dedicated to a similar focus is
   alt.rock-n-roll.symphonic. Apparantly this group was chartered and
   approved months before a.m.p but wasn't started until later. 
   Though the intent of that group is slightly different in more
   narrow in it's focus on "symphonic rock", in effect symphonic rock
   is a sub-set of progressive rock and anything discussed in a.r.s 
   could be discussed in a.m.p. Since the group essentially totally
   overlaps with a.m.p I think it's foolish to use it when a broader
   audience can be reached in a.m.p. Unfortunately, both groups are in
   the alt. heirarchy which is not carried at all Usenet sites, so
   many folks who are interested in this music may not be able to read
   alt.music.progressive. Because of this I plan an RFD and CFV to
   replace alt.music.progressive and a.r.symphonic with a rec.music.
   group, probably rec.music.progressive. Your feedback and support on
   this issue are appreciated."
	-Malcolm Humes (malcolm@wrs.com)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This FAQL is maintain by Mike Borella (borella@cs.ucdavis.edu).
Comments, questions, and criticisms are always welcome.  This text was
taken in part from the previous versions of this FAQL, which were
maintained by Scott McMahan and Malcolm Humes, respectively.  Many
thanks go to them for starting things off and adding enormous amounts
of useful info.

                END OF ALT.MUSIC.PROGRESSIVE FAQL #5

Article 18384 of alt.music.progressive:
Newsgroups: alt.music.progressive
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!pa.dec.com!decwrl!uunet!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!library.ucla.edu!news.ucdavis.edu!ortega!borella
From: borella@ortega.cs.ucdavis.edu (Mike Borella)
Subject: Progressive Music Poll: The Best of 1993
Message-ID: <CIvzMv.HsG@ucdavis.edu>
Sender: usenet@ucdavis.edu (News Administrator)
Organization: Department of Computer Science, University of California, Davis
Date: Fri, 31 Dec 1993 06:35:18 GMT
Lines: 308

Progressive Music Poll: The Best of 1993
========================================

This is a survey of progressive rock albums and musicians of 1993.  If you
have the time and the inclination, please fill out the survey below.  I've
posted this to alt.music.progressive and to Gibraltar.  The poll will remain
open until at least February first, later if enough people request it.

Each category has space for five entries.  You may list less than five but
don't put any more than five.  If you do I'll ignore the extra entries.  All
the categories except for "Re-release of the year" must be filled out with
albums or artists that were recorded / have recorded (or toured) in 1993 (i.e:
the copyright on the CD reads "1993").  Also, I'll allow some albums
that were released late in 92 to be considered for 1993.  If you're not sure 
of the release date of an particular item, feel free to ask me.

There have been a *lot* of progressive releases this year.  While I won't
attempt to list the re-releases, I'm including a partial list of 1993
progressive releases.  This list isn't definitive and if I've missed any,
please let me know.  I've tried to maintain a very loose definition of 
"progressive" when compiling this list.  You'll probably see albums listed 
below that you don't consider progressive, but I've included them anyway to
quell potential arguments and judgement calls.  

When I did this survey last year, I didn't disqualify any votes.  This
led to a few ridiculous stretches of the definition of progressive
(Axl Rose).  This time if I know for a fact that the band or
individual that you vote for is not progressive (or doesn't fit the
category you're voting in, for some reason) I will not hesitate to
disqualify your vote.

Last year less than 30 people responded.  This year I'd like to get at
least 60 replies.

--------------------------------------------------------
List of 1993 Progressive Rock releases (not re-releases)
--------------------------------------------------------
	Anything on this list is fair game for the survey,
	but you may vote for albums and artists not on this list as
	well.

Ain Soph                	Five Evolved From 9
Ancient Future			Asian Fusion
Anekdoten               	Vemod 
Anglagard               	Hybris 
Aragon  			Rocking Horse
Atavism of Twilight     	Atavism of Twilight 
Atria				Boulevard of Broken Dreams
Bela Fleck & The Flecktones	3 Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest
Il Berlione             	Il Berlione 
Black Jester			Diary of a Blind Angel
Camel 				Never Let Go
CAP                     	Nei Gorghi del Tempo
Il Castello di Atlante  	Sono Io il Signore delle Terre a Nord
Marc Ceccotti 			M.A.S.C.
Chainsaw Jazz           	Disconcerto 
Covenant			??
Cro Magnon              	Zapp! 
Daniel Denis            	Les Eaux Troubles 
Deus Ex Machina         	Deus Ex Machina 
Dream Theater			Live at the Marquee
Echolyn                 	Suffocating the Bloom 
Echolyn                 	...And Every Blossom
ELP				Live at the Royal Albert Hall
Episode                 	Starlight Tales 
Fish				Songs from the Mirror
Fish				Derek Dick & His Amazing Electric Bear
Fish				For Whom The Bells Toll!
Fish				Pigpen's Birthday
Fish				Uncle Fish & The Crypt Creepers
Fonya                   	Soul Travels
Steve Hackett 			Guitar Noir
Glass Hammer 			Journey Of The Dunadan 
Peter Hammill			The Noise
Steve Howe			The Grand Scheme Of Things
Kalaban                 	Resistance is Useless 
Mike Keneally			Hat
Kombinat M 			Hybrid Beat
Minimum Vital 			La Source
Montefeltro  			Il Tiempo di far La Fantasia
Ozric Tentacles         	Jurassic Shift
Pendragon			The Window of Life
Peru				The Prophecies
Phish				Rift
Bill Pohl               	Solid Earth 
Roach/Reyes/Saiz        	Suspended Memories: Forgotten Gods
Roots of Conciousness		??
Ruins                   	Burning Stone 
Solstice 			New Life
Tony Spada 			Balance Of Power 
Sylvian/Fripp 			The First Day
Syndone				Inca
Teru's Symphonia 		Clockworked Earth
A Triggering Myth		Twice Bitten
Xen                     	Unresolved Games 
Frank Zappa			Yellow Shark
Clarion				Clarion
Dogma				Album	
Galaad				Premier Fevrier
Hawkwind			It is the Business of the Future to be Dangerous
iQ 				Ever
III Milenio			Aliancia (dos Tempos ?)
Pendragon			The Very Very Bootleg
Richard Sinclair		An Evening of Magic
Ark              		Spiritual Physics
Asgard           		Imago Mundi
Battlefield      		Spirit of time
Bush, Kate       		The red shoes
Enchant          		A blue print for the world
Everon        			Paradoxes
Gee, Peter       		Heart of David
ICU           			Moonlight Flit
Kerrs Pink       		A journey on the inside
Landmarq         		Infinity Parade
Rush             		Counterparts
Tea for two   			Dream or reality
Trytan           		Celestial Messenger
Ulysses       			Labyrinths & Pyramids

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

			======================
			The Survey Starts Here
			======================

NOTE:
-----
- For all questions in which you list an individual, please list the band(s)
  they currently play with as well.
- I'll discount albums if you list more than 5 for any category (this includes
  a "tie"), or if the album you listed does not belong to the category you
  listed it in.
- No ties.  
- Please think before you vote.  If Joe Progger was a great keyboardist 20 
  years ago, but didn't impress you this year, you may want to consider 
  others over him for the best keyboardist category.  This poll is for the 
  best of '93, disregarding what has happened in the past.


Album of the year: 
------------------ 
The album that stands out in your mind as being the best release that was
recorded in 1993.  It typifies all that progressive music should be: daring,
creative, musically proficient, and so on.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Best New Artist:
----------------
A newbie on the progressive scene that has made a very promising debut.  Their
first album *must* have been released in 1993 (or late 1992).

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Re-release of the year:
-----------------------
For an album that was recorded before 1993 but made it to CD this year.  This
was something you've been waiting years for and it has lived up to your every
expectation.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Vocalist of the year:
---------------------

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Guitarist of the year:
----------------------

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Keyboardist of the year:
------------------------
Includes all forms of keyboards, but not "electronic" or "EM" artists
(see next category).

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Synthesist of the year:
-----------------------
The best electronic/EM artist (examples: Steve Roach, Klaus Schulze,
Robert Rich, David Parsons...)

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Bassist of the year:
--------------------

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Drummer/Percussionist of the year:
----------------------------------

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)


Worst progressive album of the year
-----------------------------------
An album by an artist that is definitely progressive, but it turned out to be 
one of the worst you've ever heard.  The album is so bad you may have never 
bought it or have sold it.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Best Live Show
--------------
An amazing show by just one band - please don't vote for "ProgFest",
as 4 bands played that evening, but you may vote for those individual
bands.  Just list a band that has but on the best live show you saw 
this year.  Also, don't vote more than once for the same band - if you've 
seen the same band 5 times, vote for them just once.  You don't have to 
give the date you saw them.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Most overrated progressive band of 1993
---------------------------------------
A band that everyone else seemed to rave about this year, but you
don't see what's so special about them.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Most underrated progressive band of 1993
----------------------------------------
I band that you think is great, and that they deserve more attention.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Progressive Label of the Year
-----------------------------
The label that's consistently put out high quality music in 1993.

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

And finally, some demographic info:
===================================

Your age:
Number of years you've been listening to progressive music:

--------------

Survey ends here.

Please return this form to me at:

borella@cs.ucdavis.edu

Thanks!

-Mike

Article 41930 of rec.music.makers:
Path: nntpd.lkg.dec.com!crl.dec.com!crl.dec.com!caen!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!wupost!tulane!rs5.tcs.tulane.edu!piscine
From: piscine@rs5.tcs.tulane.edu (Mike Taylor)
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers
Subject: MAILINGLIST: Gibraltar
Date: 12 May 1994 14:35:32 GMT
Organization: Tulane Museum of Natural History
Lines: 38
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <2qterk$ug@news.cs.tulane.edu>
NNTP-Posting-Host: rs5.tcs.tulane.edu

                                 Gibraltar
                                 =========

o Gibraltar is a weekly electronic magazine dedicated to Progressive Rock, and
some related music such as Fusion and Neo-Psychedelia.

o Gibraltar's focus is primarily on the lesser known Progressive Rock bands
from the late 60's through those new bands that are a vital and essential part
of today's Progressive scene. Its purpose is to explore a variety of
Progressive bands, rather than trying to learn the most trivial facts about a
few bands. What this means is no discussion of Led Zeppelin or the Monkees
(inside joke), minimal discussion of the well-known Progressive bands such as
Yes, Genesis, and Pink Floyd (they have their own digests), and lots of
discussion about everything else related to Progressive Rock.

o The core of the conversations is Progressive Rock.  From the core,
conversations may stray into the realm of Psychedelic Rock, Fusion, Electronic
Music, possibly World Music, Jazz, or even Classical.  We know that Christian
Vander of Magma was greatly influenced by John Coltrane, and that Jon Anderson
of Yes was impressed by Stravinsky.  There are many satellite topics of
interest to the Progressive listener, and as long as a Progressive thread
exists, these discussions are allowed.

o Gibraltar is distributed over the internet and FidoNet, as well as to major
computer online services such as Compuserve, America Online, Prodigy, GEnie
and Delphi.  It has a readership of over 1500 people.  If you have a question
about something progressive chances are good that one of Gibraltar's readers
can provide an answer.

o If you are not currently a subscriber and would like to subscribe, send
e-mail to gib@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu and ask to subscribe.  It's quick, free
and painless.  The same address is used to contribute your welcome ideas to
the discussion.


Mike Taylor
Gibraltar Moderator
gib@mailhost.tcs.tulane.edu

    One of the world's foremost progressive rock musicians, Kerry Livgren
    of Kansas, writes on the TRUE origin of the blues and "reveals" that
    Kansas is REALLY a derivation of a blues band!!!!
    
    BTW, I got this off the Kansas distribution list.   The list suffers
    from the same problem as the music:  too many notes.  ;-)
    
    	db
    
From:	US2RMC::"bowes@tyrell.net" "John Bowes" 19-FEB-1995 22:55:40.23
To:	kansas@traveller.com
CC:	
Subj:	Kerry's Latest Interview

Greetings,

Recently received the following note from Kerry, which I thought I 
would pass along for your enjoyment. :-)

Throw Me Down,
John Bowes
Topeka, Ks.
**********************************************************
John,

ps. following is the full text of my latest interview.
Thought you might enjoy. Hope to see you Tues.
***********************************************************
City-County Blues
by Buddy Dittmer
An interview with Kerry Livgren
from Feb. 95 issue of "The Rake"


Just when you think you've heard it all, there's always another point of
view. Kerry Livgren, guitarist/keyboardist for the midwestern rock group
"Kansas", has a new one. Though Livgren is currently working on a new album
of his own, and he maintains an "on again-off again" connection to Kansas, he
has found a new musical discovery at this stage of his career.

"Muni-Blues.  It's the best name I could come up with" says Livgren.
"Actually, there's nothing new about it. It's one of the great underlying
influences of American music, especially the blues".

Muni-blues? Livgren, himself an amateur music historian, explains that only a
student of American music history would be immediately familiar with the
meaning of the term.

"There's an intimate and vital connection between Municipal Government in
small-town America and the blues. Wherever great blues music has appeared,
you will find a link to petty local politics."

Livgren actually believes that the roots of blues and rock can be traced to
the paneled board rooms and offices of City and County governments around the
country. Though a few have adventurously posed this theory in the past,
Livgren maintains there is mounting evidence for it's validity.

"I've found some early recordings made by a few mayors and city councilmen
around the midwest, circa 1931-1940. Garnet Perth, mayor of Ottumwa, Iowa,
recorded 'Marble Hall Blues' and 'Re-election Shuffle' during this period.
Also, Buster Abcorn, a County Commissioner from Dundee County, Illinois wrote
and recorded some of the baddest blues you could ever hear, including the
classics 'Abdicate Me Blues' and ' I Loved You Baby, but You Voted for Your
Back Door Man'. When I listen to 'Abdicate Me', I can almost smell the oak
desks, leather chairs, cigar smoke, and dusty file cabinets of Abcorn's
office", Livgren sighs. "There were even some female Muni-blues artists.
Florence Pusway, a city clerk from Goff, Kansas, recorded some searing
Muni-blues during the late twenties and early thirties.

"Some local government officials actually formed bands", says Livgren.
Notable among them were The Councileers, the Quorum Forum, and the City
Ombudsman Blues Band out of Ponca City , Oklahoma. The 'Ombudsmen' , as they
were affectionately known by their constituents, laid down one of the baddest
Municipal grooves in music history.

Though most have traced the blues to the Mississippi Delta region, Livgren
claims that these recordings found their way down the river to the city and
county governments of the South, where they fell into the hands of the
populace. "The public servants never got the credit they deserved" Livgren
complains. "Everybody thinks that blues and rock came from the cotton fields
of the south, when it actually originated in the local government offices of
the Midwest. " 'Good Morning Little School Girl' was actually written by
Ethel Quarnstrom, a school board official from Indianapolis, and Elvis is
known to have been heavily influenced by a Muni-blues playing uncle, a small
town mayor in Tennessee. Livgren claims that the famous blues tune
"Crossroads" was originally "Boss Rhodes",  named after a heavy handed mayor
of Appleton City, Missouri.

Even the instrumentation of Muni-blues is unique. "The Packard Flathorn
guitar was the instrument of choice for most city and county officials,
although "Vance Hadorn of the Ombudsmen really made a Clavioline squeal" says
Livgren, and "Buster Abcorn could bring you to tears with his accordion".

So, did Municipal Blues influence Kansas, and has it found it's way into
Livgren's music? "Absolutely" he says without hesitation. "Kansas was really
into the early Muni artists. Phil Ehart patterned his playing after Cobb
Waltham, a county Water Engineer from Topeka, and Pam Pearlmuncher, a local
office percussionist. Dave Hope was a secret admirer of Otis Bison, who was
Garnet Perth's standup bassist. Rich Williams will tell you that most of his
guitar lines were copied straight from Florence Pusway's burning government
vocals. Kansas even used a mural from their statehouse, as a subtle nod to
our municipal influences. And to this day, every time I drive past the
Shawnee County offices I get the blues. It's all I can do to keep from
grabbing my 1938 Flathorn and bursting into song."

Kerry Livgren's devotion to the music of American local government is
apparent. "It's the true music of the people" Livgren wistfully exclaims.
"Everybody gets the Municipal blues some time, like when there is a new sewer
bond issue, or the city council has a long debate over a new parking lot at
the library".
Blues indeed.

:-)