Conference napalm::guitar

    So, you guys are playing "hardball", eh? (Sorry, had to...)
    
    Seriously, get legal advise. I'd be particularly wary over the fact
    that you've taken the bins as collateral without any contract (or
    possibly even a UCC form) that provides for it. Do you even know for
    a fact that the owner of The Mine actually owns the speakers?
    
    Edd

To clear up my mumbling:

The contract clearly states that if the employer cancels, he pays.

"If the employer breeches this agreement, he shall pay the employees, 
 in addition to damages, 6% interest thereon plus a reasonable 
 attorney's fee necessary for the enforcement of the contract"

I feel as though we did him a favor by agreeing to take a pay cut, AND play 
the three nights...  Now, I've taken collateral, and I wonder what I should
hit him with for a bill...

The gentlemanly thingwould be to stick to the oral agreement...  The pissed
off part of me says nail him for every penny !!

What do y'all think ??
jc

I would think that the gentlemanly thing to do in this situation is also the
legally correct thing.  Your verbal contract is valid.  You may want to see if
you can verify that he owns the Peveys before you sell them and before you talk 
with a lawyer.  No use making the situation worse by selling some unknown 
person's property or having a lawyer bill added to the lost money.  

	

						11 November 1991

						HardBall
						NOIZEY BOIZE PRODUCTIONS
						PO Box 4199
						Woodland Park, CO 80866


Mr. Xxx Xxxxxx
The Xxxx Bar And Lounge


Dear Xxx,

Per our telephone conversation on 10 November, we wanted to verify with
you the status of our engagement contract agreement made for the week of 6-10 
November 1991, for the performance of HardBall at your club "Xxx Xxxx".  In 
addition, we wanted to also verify the contractual agreement for the rental 
of our PA System and Light show, which was made (in writing) in September 1991.

Our engagement contract called for payment of services rendered at the end of
the last night of our show.  Our contract for the PA and Lighting system rental
called for weekly payments.  You, as owner of Xxx Xxxx, signed both contracts.
  
We, as an act, provided our services in good faith by performing at your 
establishment.  We also let the rental fee for the lights and PA go for over 
six weeks.  No effort was made on your part to pay for the Lighting and PA 
Rental (per contract), or to contact us and arrange a suitable repayment
schedule. 

At the end of our performance on Saturday, we were paid $XXX out of the $XXX
owed (per contract) to us.  No money was given, or mention made of the 
delinquent Lighting and PA rental fees.

On Sunday, 10 November 1991, I spoke with you on the phone and asked for the
Peavy Bass Bins as collateral.  You agreed to those conditions, and spoke with
Xxxx Xxxx.  Xxxx allowed us to remove the speakers from your establishment.

These bass bins are now in the possesion of HardBall, and shall remain in our
possesion for 30 days from the date of our agreement (10 November 1991), or
until payment (in full, plus interest at 6%) is received by us for the amount 
listed below. Acceptable method of payment shall be a certified check, or 
money order which can be sent to HardBall at the above address.  Upon receipt 
of the monies listed below, you can expect prompt return of your Peavy 
Speakers.

If no payment is received by 10 December 1991, we will take actions to sell 
the speakers to recover our losses.  Please keep in mind that we have copies 
of all contracts in our possesion, which in fact call for full repayment 
of the original (breeched) contract, plus an attorney's fee necessary for the
enforcement of the contract.  We do NOT wish to pursue this matter further.

We feel badly that these actions were necessary to protect the interests of
HardBall.  We also feel confident that you will make good your promise to pay
us in full.

Sincerely,


Cynthia J. Cooper
HardBall Band Manager,

jfc\cjc:  (Attachment)





Financial Summary:



	-Contracted amount for our performance 
 	 during the week ending 10 November:			$ XXX.00

	-Contracted amount due for PA and Lighting
         equipment rental from week ending 22 September
         through week ending 3 November 1991:           	$ XXX.00

	-Total due (per contract):				$XXXX.00

	-Minus $391 paid toward the $750 engagement 
         contract:					       -$ XXX.00

	-Interest at 6% (per contract):				$  XX.XX

	-Subtotal						$ XXX.XX

	-Misc. (4) Blown Par56 lamps
               (2) Blown Par46 lamps
               (2) Blown dimmer pack channels			$  XX.00

	-Total due before 10 December 1991:			$ XXX.XX

    re. "gentlemanly" in 2372.4
    
    IMHO your suggestion to Jeff is noble and accurate. However, dealing
    with with the vast majority of clubowners on a "gentlemanly" manner
    is about as easy a putting toothpaste back into the tube! The
    damage is done! This guy didn't hesitate to throw a whole S***load
    of sand into Jeff's vasoline and then do you-know-what to him in
    the you-know-where. My advise is to consult an attorney immediately.
    More musicians will suffer if this guy is not made to pay. 
    
    Jeff, call the attorney that I suggested. He's mild-mannered and
    personable. You'd never suspect how much of a PITBULL he is in the
    courtroom!

    Get a lawyer .... if the guy tries to get nasty about the cabs, give
    'em back.  The signed contracts will do the trick in court, and if he's
    got the cabs back, he won't have a leg to stand on - the judge will eat
    his prostrate for breakfast.
    
    Scary

    You might be able to settle this in court without the expense of a
    lawyer. Small claims courts allows disputes under a certain dollar 
    amount to be settled in front of a judge without great expense.
    Depending on the amount involved you may want to check this out.
    I used small claims court successfully in a claim against an ex-tenant.
    A small fee is required to file, however the sherriff will serve a 
    notice  on the party and he will be obligated to appear in court.
    Be prepared however, have all contracts/evidence/witnesses and be
    prepared to present your case clearly and concisely. You can optionally
    use a lawyer as well. If your contracts and case are straight forward,
    I suspect this might work.
    
    good luck,
    
    jim

	re: -.1

	I would normally agree with the small claims approach, but
	considering Coop waked off with another person's property
	(granted as collateral), things could get sticky.  I am
	concerned that this was indeed *not* the club owner's PA
	and he might get the rightful owner fired up about it.
	Seek counsel asap.

	fwiw,
	-pat

	If the amount is small enough, use small claims court. If not, get a
lawyer.  Asking around for reference should find you one who won't break you
in the course of attempting to get what's due to you.

	General additional comment.

	My father is a private compute consultant, and when one of his clients
started to look shakey, he refused to work for them unless they handed him a
check for the days work at the end of the day.  That way, he was never out more
than a days pay if the company went under.  This is a tactic you might wish to
consider in the future.

	Good luck.

						--D

    I think giving the cabs back might be a good act of faith.  Try calling
    the guy and telling him that you just want your money, and everything
    will be fine.  Like I stated earlier, having those cabs might not be
    looked on too favorably by a judge.  I mean, if you both signed a
    contract, why did YOU do something which wasn't outlined in the
    contract.  Legally, you don't have any right to those cabs, it's not in
    the contract anywhere.  Get your side of the deal as clean as possible,
    then bring in the microscope.  At this point, you're not much cleaner
    than he is.
    
    Scary

    Scary's advice is good advice. Small claims is the way to go but don't
    do it until you're clean. Collateral isn't collateral unless both
    parties agree that it is collateral. Tell the guy that you'll sue
    him unless he pays you. I did it to a club owner. The guy defaulted,
    I won and then the sherriff made him pay. It's cheap too ($14 in
    Massachusetts I think) and he'll have to pay thte cost if he losses.

    --ron

    Yup, 2 wrongs rarely make a right ...
    
    Scary

    Coop,

    This time I read the WHOLE base note.

    I not completely clear on this but my understanding is that the bins are
    your property and that they were part of a rental contract that you had
    with the club.
    
    It sounds to me as though you, for good reason, just changed the credit
    terms of the rental agreement. If the club was indebted to you for past
    usage of the equipment and you had reason to believe (first-hand
    knowledge) that they had not acted in good faith in either contract, I
    would argue that you had every right to protect your property. If the
    club got boarded up tomarrow you'ld have a hell of a time getting your
    equipment out of it. Besides, you said that the owner (manager?) after
    some whining told you to go ahead and take the equipment. So who cares
    what these other fowl-mouthed idiots said. Sounds as though you bent
    over backwards for this guy from the beginning.

    I'd just tell the guy that he has n days (picka number) to pay up. Or
    you'll see him in court. If the business is really hurting, you'll
    probably need to go the whole nine yards in the small claims process.
    But unless you negotiate a settlement with this guy, (and I'd give him
    NO credit) if you want your money, you have no alternative. BTW, small
    claims cases are typically argued without attorneys. That's what it's
    there for. The judge gives you a lot of leeway in terms of procedure.

    Take it from someone that's been on both sides of a small claims suite
    and won both times.
    
    --ron

    re: .10
    
    I don't necessarily agree that holding the cabs is wrong...
    
    Just as there was a verbal contract reducing the amount
    of the original contract, there was also a verbal contract
    that the cabinets could be held as collateral...  if the
    cabinets didn't belong to the club owner, then he was wrong
    to agree to let them be taken.
    
    It's a two way street... Hardball agreed to reduce the original
    contract, and the owner agreed to put up the cabs as collateral.
    
    /steve

    re: the bass bins
    
    Can .0 tell us exactly who owns the bins?
    
    Edd

    OK, now I've read almost all the replies.

    The owner represented the cabs as his property and agreed to put them up
    as collateral. That pretty much gets HardBall off the hook because the
    judge will probably agree that HardBall has no practical way of
    verifying the rightful owner of the collateral. If they are not the
    club's property, then the club will have to answer for it to rightful
    owner. On the other hand, if the rightful owner is sufficiantly upset by
    this and takes matters into his/her  own hands and knows where you live
    and/or work or whatever (next gig?), things could get ugly. Legally,
    though, I think you're OK. But WTF do I know.

    What counts is what's in writing.  True, the scum *did* agree to let
    you take them.  But in court, it'd be your word against his.  If you
    get in a sh*t slinging contest in court, this just gives him an extra
    handful.  
    
    You can't just leave things as they are and keep the bins without
    wondering who *really* owns them - if you sell them, and the *real*
    owner says they're stolen, you got a problem.
    
    Come clean - present a smile in court - rip his a$$hole out.  8^)
    
    
    Scary (who's better at firing band members than negotiating with club
    owners)

Putting my Judge Woppner hat on
Verbal agreements are supposed to stand as well as any written contract.
However, there's a gray area to be considered...

	? Well I didn't say he could take those xxxx
	? Yes you did
	? didn't
	? did
	? didn't----

Where your contract is very specific, you have THAT indeed to stand on.
Chances are, you're in for a pissin contest either way...  
How much $$$ are you out, (Curious (and that could include the pa rentals..)

    It's my observation that one function a judge serves in small claims
    court is as a referee. He has no interest in locking up both parties
    as they both have violated some aspects of the law and/or agreement.
    He is most likely to say. OK, kiddies-  Now you pay up on the contract,
    and YOU return the speakers and let's all shake hands and go home
    and behave yourselves. 
    
    Now if you've sold the speakers before the court date, then things
    could get more complicated and the actual amount to be awarded to 
    either party could be much more subject to judges mood, phase of moon,
    etc.

    Again this Scary guy makes a good point. It IS your word against his
    since it's nearly impossible to produce a disinterested third party as a
    witness to an agreement made over a telephone. Play the bin card now to
    see if you can't loosen the guy up. If it doesn't work tell he keep the
    cabs but you'll see him in court. MAKE SOMEONE SIGN A RECEIPT WHEN YOU
    BRING THEM BACK!

    I also agree with the a$$hole part. :o

    --rjb

    ... trust me ...  8^)
    
    Scary 

    Well, I think small claims court is out - as the monies are in excess 
    of $1K.
    
    RE: Bringing the cabs back.
    
    A good suggestion for sure, BUT, the trouble is:
    
    This guy has absolutely NO money.  I'm serious when I say that
    chapter 11 is right around the corner.  If they file (and they will),
    I'll (we'll) be totally out.  Interesting also is that we haven't heard
    a peep out of the place since the Sunday afternoon fiasco.
    
    I plan on contacting a lawyer and take his advice.  I beleive that
    a suit for the full amount of the original contract, plus the rental
    fees, plus damages (if I can think some up), and attorneys fees is
    the way to go.  But I'll listen to the mouth piece.
    
    RE: Witnesses
    
    There are plenty of people who heard the whole thing...
    
    jc

    All this wouldn';t have happened if you were gigging next door at
    Cowboys!

    Last I heard in Mass $1500 was the limit for small claims.

	Yabbut.  Jeff, if the cabs do not belong to the owner, it does
	not matter if he has money or not.  This is a big question.  
	Also, did all your witnesses hear the owner?  It was *you* 
	on the phone with him - not them!  How can they be effective
	witnesses?  The fact is, this owner and his buddies probably
	have worse troubles than a pissed off band to contend with.  
	Be prepared for flaky behavior and/or retaliatory actions...

    RE: damages ...
    
    I wouldn't bother with that ... Wopner laughs at `pain and suffering',
    ya know ?    8^)
    
    You might try drawing up yet another contract_looking document agreeing
    to taking the cabs as payment.  Note on the contract that the cabs
    belong to the club owner, and have it notorized.  If something should
    come up later, then you'll have a legal document stating that the stuff
    actually did belong to him.  
    
    I dunno, this business about the cabs really casts some shadows on the
    entire event.  Your wallets may be screaming for attention, but your
    better judgement should have left the cabs alone, methinks.
    
    Scary

    
    This guy *IS* Scary!

    Coop,
    
    I haven't read all replies here, I've only got a few minutes before I
    gotta get outta here. So, excuse me if I sound like I'm addressing
    something that's already been discussed.
    
    I might not have taken the bins. Its arguable whether that was the
    correct/legitimate thing for you to do, ie, that may bite you in the ass
    in the end. But you did, so I'll begin there. 
    
    Now that you've gone this far, you are commited and you should stay
    with your game plan so long as the relationship with the club owner
    remains the same. As I see it the ball is in his court. Were he to
    bring a suit aginst you, he may, with the help of a talented lawyer
    be able to show damage against his business and that you are the cause
    of this damage. If he/they were succesful in persuading the case, then it
    follows that you will be obligated to pay not only actual damage, but
    possibly punitive damages as well.  
    
    In the extreme, the butthole would claim that 
    your theft was the only reason for his business to fail. Now, whereas
    you indicated that he's on the verge of a business failure, he may not
    want the additional expense of a talented lawyer and court costs ( he
    might include that as damages however.)
    
    I'm just saying this for you to be prepared for the worst. What you
    need to do is negotiate with the supid f**k. Call him everyday and ask
    him if he has your money. You want to keep it clear in his head that he
    owes you and that you are damaged because of his "theft of services".
    Don't threaten him, but do advise him that you have filed for either a
    small claims hearing or a hearing before the district court, depending
    upon the $$$ value. And unfortunately, follow thru. Start by calling
    your local friendly courthouse to determine if this case fits within 
    small claims. If not, you can file a petition on your own behalf, but
    the mechanics of filing are nothing that lay people would intuitively
    know, so you may want to engage a lawyer.
    
    I don't think I'd return the sh!thead's stuff until I was satisfied
    with the outcome, or that my ass was between a rock and a hard place
    and I felt it was the wiser choice. And then, depending upon my ass got
    into that capitulating situation, such as one where some big ugly
    brusier has me twisted to where my head is gonna by forced up my ass,
    I would have some legal leverage.
    
    I think the key is to keep callin the guy to "see if he's come to his
    better judgement". Make him feel unreasonable, which he was! Always
    talk with him with the attitude that you're trying to be reasonable and
    that you're only trying to help *him* out by asking about his better
    judgement. Always be polite, and low-keyed as if you're on his side
    about getting his stuff back; he deserves it - he paid good money for
    it - he needs it to maintain operation, etc. But you gotta make him
    feel like he's gotta respect you too, and that it's only fair - you're
    not trying to rip him off - you want him to have the stuff. DO NOT
    INSULT, YELL AT, THREATEN, OR OFFEND HIM EVEN IF HE DOES TO YOU (which
    I'm sure he will/has - the sh!tbag). Keep the ball in his court and
    show him the honorable way out.
    
    All this and a half a buck may get you a cup of coffee. Keep us
    informed Jeff!
    
    Good luck
    
    "sakman"  
         

    Wow!  Be reasonable and polite ??  Eeek!  You don't know me 
    very well do ya ?   :)
    
    Guess I'll have Cindi call him instead.  :)
    
    Thanks again y'all !!
    
    jc

    Jeff and I have already talked about my opinions on the subject at hand
    (FWIW, I also suggested consulting an attorney), but I just wanted to
    add a couple of little things in here in response to the discussion.

    I don't know where some of you guys got this wild hair that the cabs
    don't belong to the club (and seem intent on pursuing it with
    relentless fervor).  Jeff said nothing that would make you believe
    that.  Hardball has worked with this club on an ongoing basis since the
    very first day it opened and they are quite familiar with who owns what
    around there.  The cabs definitely belong to the club.

    I believe that taking the cabs, after first contacting the owner, was
    the correct action in this case simply because of the financial
    instability of the place.  I went down to watch them play Friday night
    and was told that there had been no beer there a little earlier that
    the owner had to take CASH to a liquor store and purchase a keg for
    the night because nobody in town will take his checks anymore.  I
    expect them to fold up any day now.  They have already PAWNED (yes,
    pawned) all the rest of their PA equipment, those bass bins were all
    that was left.  They can't use them by themselves and the bands they've
    had in there recently have provided their own PA systems (since the
    club's PA is in hock) and didn't use them anyway.  It would be a little
    difficult for them to claim damages because they didn't have them.

    If the club folds up before Hardball gets paid their money, as everyone
    expects it to, then they'll still be able to recover some of the money
    owed them.  If the club was in good enough financial shape to pay them,
    then returning the cabs might be a nice "good faith" option, but I
    completely disagree with returning the cabs with the place in the
    condition it's in now.  If Hardball returns the cabs and the place goes
    into Chapter 11, then the cabs will be sold by the bankruptcy arbiter
    with the rest of the clubs assets (almost nothing as far as I can tell)
    and Hardball will be placed in the list of creditors and will get some
    tiny percentage of what's owed them.  The club owner agreed to use of
    those cabs as collateral and they would be fools to return them now. 

    Another issue is that it takes several months to get a case into court,
    even small claims.  I am totally convinced that this place will be
    history long before then.  No defendant = No court case = No money. 
    Unless the guy is a complete and utter fool (which he very well may
    be), he incorporated the business and when it fails, folks, there's
    nothing left.  The building is leased, they don't own anything!

    The club owner told them that he did not have the money to pay them
    when he defaulted on his end of the contract.  The place is doing such
    a poor business lately that I find it difficult to believe that it will
    ever recover.

    Jeff, I agree with Bill (.28) that you should be calling the club owner
    frequently to check on the status of your payment, and document your
    phone calls.  I think this will improve your position in court if it
    comes to that and also reinforce in his mind that what you REALLY want
    is the money due you, not some Peavey bass bins.

    Greg

    How would you feel if you bounced a check at your local grocery store
    (while you were down and out), and the grocery store in turn came by
    and took your lawnmower ?   Make sense ?  Nope.  Screwy comparison, but
    it's best I can come up with on 3 drinks and short notice.
    
    It just seems like the bass bin situation threw a bad light on things,
    but as was stated earlier, that's history now - Hardball has 'em, right
    or wrong.  But, I'd be real cautious about selling them - they're still
    his property until the debt has been LEGALLY resolved, one way or the
    other.  I can hear him now ....` GD band, ripped me off, I ain't payin'
    'em ...'.  
    
    Before this is said and done, I'd wager that you'll have a pair of bass
    bins and some bar room war stories to tell your kids.  The money,
    you'll never see.  A lawyer would probably want some $$$ up front, and
    scum bag would be obligated to repay him if you won.  But, if he's
    incorporated and files bankrupcy, it's bedtime for Bonzo - you'd be
    stuck with that too ...
    
    Hang on to the bins and the good times you guys had out there ... move
    on.
    
    
    Scary

    I think the "who really owns the bins?" issue came up as a result of
    the conversation with the "house band" member who spoke to .0 after
    the initial conversation with the club owner. That person seemed to
    have a vested interest in the bins beyond what would seem reasonable
    (to me) for a pair of unused cabs.
    
    ...that, and the fact many of us consider "honest club-owner" to be
    oxymoronic. ;^)
    
    You may want to consider just cutting bait and taking your lumps...
    
    Edd 

    I think the purpose of the house band member calling me was
    to act as a scare tactic (it didn't work - the bone head is a 
    DRUMMER of all people :).
    
    The bins definately belong to the club; sorry for the confusion
    there.
    
    jc (WHo'll keep updating the situation)
    
    PS - Is this not a perfect example as to why we do contracts ???
    :)

    OK, then take the contracts to a lawyer and see what he says.  If he
    thinks he's got a case (with a chance of obtaining fees), you may be in
    a win/win situation ... who knows ...
    
    Scary (who's better in Family Court than civil court ... 8^)

Now kiddies, after 33 replies of what is undoubtedly the biggest
rat hole, Coop will ever get into, consider this.

When my last band got taken for some dough by a club in Mumble-Mumble
Mass, we simply decided that this was indeed the last thing we'd take 
from this guy (club had a long history of doing numerous nasty things to
all their bands, we were no exception although the money incident, this
was the first.  Double bookings, were the more dominant probelm we had..)

when the next booking came, we cancled that afternoon, and never
returned..

In the long run:  It wasn't the most professional thing to do but,
we were all in agreement that we weren't going to work there anymore,
and we knew, we'd NEVER see the money, add to this, he's done it once,
he'll do it again.

                 <<< CVG::WORK3:[NOTES$LIBRARY]GUITAR.NOTE;2 >>>
                              -<  Guitar Notes  >-
================================================================================
Note 2372.30  Contract disputes... help with collecting gig money !     30 of 35
GOES11::G_HOUSE "Tommy The Cat"                      55 lines  12-NOV-1991 18:30
           -< Remember, the place will be out of business VERY soon >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
>    I don't know where some of you guys got this wild hair that the cabs
>    don't belong to the club (and seem intent on pursuing it with
>    relentless fervor).  Jeff said nothing that would make you believe
>    that.  Hardball has worked with this club on an ongoing basis since the
>    very first day it opened and they are quite familiar with who owns what
>    around there.  The cabs definitely belong to the club.

    
    	Greg, I don't think it as a wild hair to ask the question of
    ownership.  We were concerned that Coop would be doing battle with a
    third party.  Besides, we asked the question at least twice and the
    question of ownership wasn't really resolved by Coop until reply 33. 
    His lack of response seemed odd.
    
    	Another question.  What happens if the club owner owes money on
    his cabs?  Would Coop be able to keep them?  
    

    
    Jeez, everyone else is jumping in...
    
    Coop, did the practical thing.  I hope that I'm on top of the situation
    like that if something similar happens.  The fact that he didn't get
    back into the discussion until late is immaterial (most of us have
    other things to attend to) and doesn't really give sufficient grounds
    for generating suspicions.
    
    If the owner gives the cabs away, that's his problem (unless he does
    owe money on them and the loan was secured by the cabinets, in which
    case the lender has a prior lien on them).  Most likely, if the owner
    does owe money then it's in the nature of unsecured debt, which means
    the cabs are his to give away - until he declares bankruptcy.
    
    I think Jeff did the best anyone could do in the situation - the only
    thing that could have been done better is to re-negotiate the deal at
    the first sign of trouble - and that's generally a judgement call where
    you trade off the risk of a loss against good customer relations. 
    

  Couldn't it be made to seem that the cabs were taken without the owners'
 permission? I wouldn't have taken the cabs without some *proof* that the owner
 agreed to it. The owner said to me and I told such and such is hearsay.

   The cabs muddy the water in what otherwise seems a straightforward case
 in favor of the band.

   JMO,

   Bob

    
    It seems to me that if the owner tries to deny making the verbal
    agreement about your taking the cabs as collateral, then you could
    "forget" the verbal agreement you made and hold him to the written
    contract.  I think a phone consultation with a lawyer and a trip to
    small claims (assuming you're within in the limit $$-wise) should take
    care of it.  If the club goes bankrupt, I suspect you'll be low on the
    list of creditors to be paid, and at that, you won't get the full
    amount owed you.  Maybe the lawyer could send a letter or make a call
    or two for you, but don't let him/her spend too much of your money. 
    I'll be surprised if you see any cash from this guy if he has other
    overdue bills to pay.
    
    Good luck,
    
    Justine

    
    re .30

    Greg's description of this club's state makes the prospect for
    collecting any cash from this club seem pretty grim. My feeling after
    reading that reply is that you should just negotiate a settlement with
    the guy that includes the bins as partial payment. Cut your losses now.
    You can't get blood from a stone and I'd hate to see you end up with an
    attorneys fee to swallow besides.
    
    --rjb

    Coop,
    
    if the cabs are in good shape, offer 'em as payment to the first
    gorilla that'll break the club owner's legs.....old fashioned,
    immature, won't fill yer wallet......but it'll feel great!
    
    Just kiddin', of course 8^)
    
    Steve

    Very interseting story here Coop,. I wish you luck.
    
    The only advice I would give is to not sell the cabs until 
    some agreement/settlement of the whole mess comes together.
    
    							/Bill
    

    
    Get some legal advice before you do anything else.  If the lawyer
    says it was a good idea for you to have taken the bass bins, then
    you're probably okay and can continue to go for the rest of what
    Mr. Niceclubowner owes you.  If the clubowner realizes the implic-
    ations of his filing for bankruptcy (and assuming that he definately
    will file eventually) then he probably knows that those cabs aren't
    going to do *him* much more good now than after bankruptcy is filed,
    if you see what I mean.
    
    Good luck, Coop.
    
    guy

	I had to throw my 2 bits in here. We've had only a few problems of
this nature in the past. Your contract should protect you from most everything,
at worst you may have to give the speakers back, however, hang onto them
until the last minute, always withe the offer to return them when you are
paid. If you sell the Speakers before a judgment, you may have to replace them
(and you can imagine that thier value will be vastly inflated at that point
in time, don't lose any more money on the deal than you have to).

	Are these the same people who where 100% behind you 6 or 7 months
ago? I thought that they had some sort of exclusive on you (Hate to see what
effect that this might have if they did).

								Jens

    RE: Jens
    
    Yep, thats the place.  However, we told them to stick their management
    agreement.  We started getting visions of this stuff quite a while ago.
    In fact the only reason we played the gig to begin with was to get out
    with our new tunes, new drummer and prepare for our next "real" gig 
    at The Penthouse in December.
    
    Funny, Sunday it wasn't a money thing - it was an ethics thing.  Now
    that it's later in the week, it's a "me being pissed off and wanting
    some payback!!" thing.
    
    It's a small world out there, and Cindi (my spouse) has her own little
    business called "Critter Sitters".  One of her clients is in the
    business of helping people collect debts.  He has a lawyer on his staff
    and when Cindi mentioned to him what was going on, he asked us to give
    him copies of all our paperwork/records etc...  He promised to take
    care of it for us for nothing (his dogs loved Cindi I guess).
    He's a real nice 300lb texan fellow that looks like he could be
    damn-pursuasive if he wanted to.  Don't get me wrong, this guy is
    NOT a knee breaker (although I've offers to that effect also :^).
    
    At anyrate, I beleive that our friend will be visiting the club in
    question soon enough...   :)
    
    Stay tuned to the "On-going adventures of HardBall" or "Heavy Metal 
    boys make good"
    
    jc

    One thing you may want to consider...
    
    At this point you appear to be an unsecured creditor. If you go to 
    court and win (even small claims) you may be allowed to attach the
    assets of the corporation, assuming they have any. This puts you in
    a much better position to collect something.
    
    Edd

	I think that's my biggest problem with people who want to help
	you out. They see an opporitunity to make money, but they may make
	decisions that are not in your best interests, or commit you
	to things that are inconsistant with your long term goals. I don't
	think that there is a musician out there anywhere, who after playing
	out for a dozen paying gigs, hasn't been screwed over at least
	once. A contract won't always help you if you are dealing with a
	dishonest or questionable person, but I find that people who won't
	sign any contract are to be avoided (unless you are donating your
	time - this is all together a different issue). You have to ask
	yourself why they won't, and guess it's because they like to double
	book (I've had this happen before), or they are looking to cut thier
	costs at the end of everything, and give you tales of woe instead
	of your verbal agreement. I'm not saying that all managers are like
	this, but, you'll eventually run accross them. Protecting yourself
	is difficult, but keep in mind that a lot of musicians will put up
	with people that take advantage of them, simply because it doesn't
	upset them as long as they think 'Well, if only the crowd was better
	we would have gotten paid - maybe If I work harder, I'll earn
	something this week'. Having your wife manage you is a good idea,
	as she is working for you, and not some independant agency where
	you are just another band that earns her the same as any other
	band that she can place in a place.

							Jens

    A big part of the problem is that people in general that don't know any
    better think like the song says "Money for nothin' and your chicks for
    free". You know what I mean? It's the "Those guys shouldn't get paid to
    have fun" mentality. So when the squeeze is on, the bands the first to
    get stiffed. They don't realize the hours that go into rehersal, etc.
    and you're never going to convince most of them that there's real work
    involved.

    --rjb

    Good comment Ron.    We figured it out once, that with packing up,
    moving the stuff, setting up, tearing down and moving back to the
    rehearsal studio we were making less that $1/hour...Naturally we 
    love it.  Good thing - cuz the money ROTS !
    
    Anyhow, I called the owner last night.  He was sick and didn't want to
    talk.  Recommended that I call the club and talk to the guy whos been
    helping out over there (the guy who yelled at me on the phone).  As
    many of you feared, he claimed that his wife owned the cabs and they
    had a receipt with serial numbers.  I told him I didn't care who owned
    them, as I had the club owners permission to take them.  He started
    talking about grand theft and stuff and that he *could* call the cops.
    I told him to go for it !  I said he could accuse me of stealing, but
    proving it in a court of law was something else.  I also asked him if
    he really wanted to cops snooping around his drug infested business...
    And that if anyone stole the cabs, it was the club owner.  That shut him 
    up.  We recorded the whole conversation (and we told him that) at the 
    advice of our lawyer dude.
    
    Boyoboy, was he *nice* though.  :)  We told him we wanted the lighting 
    rental monies, the gig monies, restitution for some burnt out PAR bulbs, and
    six lamps (par 64's) that he owed us for the original light show deal.
    Total of over $1300.  He argued some of the details ("well the lights 
    all worked when we took them down") - yaright.    He did accuse us of
    stealing some other stuff... He's trying to up the ante I guess. 
    We told him "bottom line - you want your cabs, we want our money - we 
    HAVE cabs"
    
    Anyway, he said he had a check for $5K, to call him Saturday and he
    "might" have "some" cash for us.  Anyway our lawyer/collection dude
    said if we called him and if he said he had money, he'd go by the club
    to do the transaction (as I don't particularly wanna get my butt
    stomped ;).
    
    I've been dealing with all this with a strep throat and flu.  I feel 
    like dookeee.  Thats why I've been kinda quiet.  Anyway, thanks again
    for all the help and advice.  Stay tuned to this topic !!
    
    jc
              

    Hi -
    
    Just another response. I go through this kind of stuff too often as a
    consultant, and usually with smaller firms. Based on all that I've
    read and there are some very good responses out there...there are some
    basic truths with contract law:
    
    - You did the *practical* and *right* thing in getting some security
    for the contract. It's been said, but this is not the *legal* thing to
    do unless you get it in WRITING first. I, you or anyone smart enough
    could turn this around that you aren't getting paid because you stole
    the CABS!!! And the poor judge WILL have a tough time figuring this one
    out cause it was all verbal. The good news is that it might be all
    you'll see. You got lucky. I had a defendant stand right up and tell a
    Judge under oath that I called him last week and dropped the entire
    matter that I was sueing him over! And the Judge didn't have PROOF
    either way. Never remove property without written permission from the
    owner. You must also ASSIGN a VALUE to the property at that time.
    
    - Anyone can dispute a contract. When a breach occurs, it is not up to
    you or me to enforce it anyway you see fit. Sometimes I don't get paid for
    180 days from large companies! I can't walk in and take a VAX as
    collateral. First, you must WRITE (like you did) a letter confirming
    the breach. Then state your terms. Send this letter REGISTERED MAIL.
    Send another in 15 days, again REGISTERED if you get no response.
    Demand all correspondence be in WRITING, do not accept telephone calls
    if the guy is just whining or insulting you *you have better things to
    do with your time*.
    
    - Verbal conversations are nice, but very very difficult to enforce.
    Creditors love to call you up on the phone and shout at you (illegal),
    cause they know you can't prove it. Here's the catch. If someone calls
    YOU, you can record thier call WITHOUT TELLING THEM. Yes, it is legal
    and admissable in court. This is NOT TRUE if you call THEM. Always ask
    someone to call you back! I know it is legal in Georgia, not sure about
    the Federal books..
    
    - DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT, DOCUMENT. The judge will ask to see them. 
    
    - Never, renegotiate after a breach, unless it is to settle the
    contract. The judge will wonder why you are caving in or being so nice
    ,it always works against you.
    
    - Threaten to report this matter to the following (and do it):
    
    	- Local Radio (did they advertise?).
    	- Newspaper
    	- Television
    
    Just state the facts, do not slander or libel yourself.
    
    FINALLY, and most important. Buy yourself a good book on Contract Law
    and Commerical paper, and learn from it!
    
    My general rule is, pay me 25% up front with the signing of the
    contract. Usually the deadbeats won't do that. In your line, maybe just
    a check to be held until contract is over. 
    
    You probably don't want to hear this, still...
    
    	The owner sounds like he's in bad shape. Sounds to me like you are
    dealing with mixed personality types as well. Him agreeing about the
    CAB's was more than he had to do. He could have kicked you out, and
    told you to stuff your contract that your service was terrible and
    totally unsatisfactory and you would have one h*ll of a time getting
    anything out of it at all. All he needed to do is walk up to you during
    the last night and *fire* you, put it in writing that your band did
    something (almost anything) that was unbecoming to the customers, and 
    you would have been cooked. I know this probably will make you mad, 
    but you need to realize what you are dealing with (potentially). 
    As my attorney says every time I call - "Learn...and watch out who you
    deal with next time".
    
    	I once developed an system for this guy who cancelled my
    contract 75% way into it, because he said my work was "unsatisfactory".
    Trying to overcome this defense in court is very costly and time
    consuming. (He walked away with the basic modules which I could not
    prove he had, cause he claimed he didn't).
    
    One final:
    
    	This is what I tell myself everytime I (like you) worked hard for
    *free* and the person is at least communicating with me... 
    
    "Most of us have been down financially at one time or the other.
    Let him know that it's nothing personal, just that you want your money
    and am willing to go to court to get it." Always be the good guy, never
    stoop to being the bad guy.
    
    	I AGREE WITH your frustration, and anger, I'm just saying to try
    and keep it on a business level - he still *might pay you*. I've been
    there too many times - and that kind of "I'll kill him" attitude will
    eat you up and make you look bloodthursty which is not very
    complimenting in court. Conversly, I'm Certainly, not defending the 
    club! Stick it to them in COURT with all you got! 
    
    Ramble - ramble,
    
    Jim
      

    Wise words .... I think all of us learned a little from that.  Thanks !
    
    Scary

    Thought I'd close this one out:
    
    I just got back from The Mine owners home.  We went there to 
    settle this whole thing and got it half settled anyway.
    
    We both signed an agreement that the following equipment was
    given to us in trade for our services performing for three nights
    at the club in question:
    
    - (2) Peavy 18" BlackWidow front loaded bass bins
    - (1) BiAmp 120wpc power amp (bridgable to 240wt mono)
    - (1) AudioLogic 4way mono/3way stereo cross over
    - (1) Light (PAR46) - was really ours to begin with
    
    The gig monies are now paid in full per this agreement.
    
    However, the other monies ($450) that are due us from another party
    are still owed.  We'll be in contact with that person as soon as his 
    phone is turned back on.
    
    So for 3 nights work, we got a power amp, 2 nice bass bins, a
    crossover, a light, $391, and a complementary bottle of Dewars.  :)
    All in writing, signed sealed and delivered.
    
    Now we go after the other guy for the light rental monies.
    
    I feel as though we made out.   What do you think ??
    
    jc (Who has a lot more respect for the club owner now)
    
    PS - Last night was the last night in business for The Mine.
         (Chapter 11 I guess).
    
    

    ... I still think I should have flown out there and handled it for ya.
    
    ;^)
    
    
    Scary

>    ... I still think I should have flown out there and handled it for ya.
    
    What are you gonna do, fire the guy?
    
    ;^)

    Yeah ... I guess, that's all I know ...  8^)
    
    Scary (verbal surgeon)

	Can't wait for Vol 2 of this story ...

	Or, "Hey, how do we split up this gear!"

	;^)

    One thing that strikes me in following this topic is the power of
    NOTES. This is such a tremendous medium to be able to converse amongst
    other folks. Not only can we get info as to prices for
    whatever/where ever, technical information, but find out about
    situations to avoid like this topic.  Glad for ya Jeff.
    
    "sakman"