Conference napalm::guitar

    Paul,
    Hi my name is Jeff..
    When I play,I usually hammer the strings to death,which gets pretty
    expensive...I go through a pac of Roto sounds in a week and a half.
    
    When I'm not slapping with my thumb,and pulling off with my index,and
    little finger; I generally play in a picking fashion with all my
    fingers on my right hand including my thumb. Using the tips of the
    fingers.
    During "fast" passages,I concentrate on position,and plan ahead
    where I'll be going next.
    

You don't think about it once you've been playing awhile.  When you're starting 
out, you do all sorts of exercises where you DO think about it.  You keep doing 
exercises later on, but it becomes natural.  Your fingers know where to go to 
be ready for the next note.  It isn't something you can really get in a quickie 
lesson from a notes file.  The best thing to do is to go out and find a 
teacher who will work with you one-on-one until you have enough chops to start 
teaching yourself.


				Mark

    
    	I remember seeing a TV interview with John Entwistle of The Who.
	They asked him to diplay his "style of play".  He then proceeded
    	to show about 6 different styles that he uses at any given time!
    	Each method gave a completely different sound/feeling to what
    	he was playing.
    
    	I guess it just goes to show that even "professionals" don't
    	necessarily have a set style that they adhere to.  Unless you're
    	a stickler for form, I would just recommend that you play the
    	way you feel most comfortable.  That's all I do.

    
    	allen

    
    To get a full, rich sound, get as much flesh into each note, and
    play a gently as a little baby.  This is sort of string bass technique,
    but start with your finger against the string, pointing up at the
    head.  Then, with all you finger against the string, ever so gently,
    evenly, pluck, the gentler the better.
    
    That's how you practice.  The idea is when you play you don't think
    about technique, you think about technique when you practice.
    
    Once you have that, you can add all types of sounds but you need
    a solid foundation.
    
    By the way, solid tone is also achieved by pressing very hard on
    the neck, a monster with the left, a baby with the right.

re: .2

Mark, I've been playing bass for ~18 years, and I'm still looking for good
ideas - you probably will be after that long, too.  I wasn't really looking 
for a "quickie lesson"!

In a retrospective way, you're right about the lessons.  But unfortunately,
when I was starting out, what was being attempted on bass was a mere
shadow of the situation today.  When I heard Jaco the first time, I immediately
started a re-education and bad-habit shedding process.  I started asking myself,
"how would I have to use my fingers to play that well?", and began re-teaching 
myself accordingly.  I'm still thinking about and working on my chops...I have 
a feeling the process goes on till death do us part.

Paul

RE: .5

I wasn't insulting you, but I don't think you took it that way anyway.  I just 
thought you were an absolute beginner, the way the question was worded.

I could use a good bass teacher myself.  I suffered a great deal of stagnation 
last year through to this summer, having burnt out on studying under a guitar 
teacher who could teach me lots of musicality, theory and arranging plus give 
me some exercises for reading, rhythm and note memory; but who had nothing to 
offer in the way of actual bass technique per se.

Right now, though, playing in a good band doing complex material is helping me 
to teach myself.  I don't worship Jaco, and only like the stuff he did with 
Joni Mitchell and a few others, but I know what you mean about hearing a great 
player and wanting to sound like them.  Tonally, Jaco is probably the electric 
bassist I would most want to emulate, as I can't exactly get Charlie Haden's 
string bass sound on an electric.  But I don't care for his choice of notes, 
quite often, and find he often uses way too much vibrato for my taste (like 
Ron Carter and Stanley Clarke).

Neck pressure is definitely important.  Also, I anchor my right thumb against 
the fretboard (or against the tumb rest on my fretless), which helps me keep 
the rhythm with the two fingers (I may start using three fingers eventually on 
certain types of passages or in certain contexts).  Others don't rest the 
thumb anywhere.  I've found the thumb rest on the fretless causes me to play 
better rhythmically, as it forces my fingers to stretch more and therefore 
makes me lighten up on the force and get a springier touch to my picking.

Playing a fretless has helped me on the P-bass too, as I am more inclined to 
hit a note right on and therefore get a cleaner sound.  I really recommend to 
EVERY electric bassist that they play BOTH.  Today's music demands it, besides, 
what with all the reggae and jazz influences to be found among the more 
progressive modern pop bands.


				Mark

    I believe that Jaco only uses two fingers on his picking hand (not
    counting all his false harmonic techniques).  Absolutely amazing
    when you hear what he can do with them.  Also important to Jaco's
    sound is picking at different distances from the bridge to vary
    the tone.

    In a recent Guitar Player, some studio bassist stressed the importance
    of a light touch for both picking and fingering hands and how much
    this improved his technique.  Jaco also refers to "touching the
    instrument to make it sing".  I've always tried to use a somewhat
    light touch, although it requires concentration; my left hand wants
    to push harder than it needs to.  Perhaps a "monster on the left" is
    only necessary for upright.
    
    /rick

re:  .6

No insult taken.  Actually, it gave me a good chuckle when I realized how
the question came across.

I have about the same view of Jaco, too, although scrutinizing his technique
did have the effect of causing me to copy him a lot for a while.  I finally
made a deliberate effort to stop using his licks, especially the myriad
variations on this:  (the numbers are scale degrees)
              _ _ _
             | | | |
            6 6 5 1

I haven't stopped using those notes, necassarily, but just that "Jacoesque"
way of playing them; know what I mean?

It's funny how different players reach different conclusions about techniques.
I used to anchor my thumb on the e string, but I made myself stop at a point,
because I realized that it was interfering when I needed to play a note on
that string.  I think the reason I got started resting my thumb on the string
to begin with was the fact that it is always there, no matter where you are
plucking.  I don't rest it on anything now, because that seems to help
me play with greater relaxation, plus I think my mobility is enhanced a little
by not anchoring.  On the other hand, I play with my fingers curled back a 
little more, so I also *need* more mobility.

Mark, if you ever do figure out how to get a sound like Charlie Haden's from an
electric bass, let me know...

Paul

>Mark, if you ever do figure out how to get a sound like Charlie Haden's from an
>electric bass, let me know...


Damned if I will!  I'll patent it and make some MONEY off of it!


				Mark

    
    Anyone out there who plays upright (acoustic) bass as well as electric?
    
    I need some light shed on how to buy and use a bow....
    

re:  .10

I studied acoustic bass many years ago.  Probably the first thing you need
to do is decide whether you want to use a French or German bow.  The French
type is like a violin or cello bow (overhand grip) while the German type is
like a viola da gamba bow (underhand grip).  Most classical players these
days use the French bow.  I did, because it seemed to me to offer better
playing facility.  You don't have to look very hard to find players who still
use the German bow, though.

My advice about purchasing and using the bow would be to find somebody who
can help you in person.  It would be pretty difficult to verbalize a lot of
the information you're looking for without being able to demonstrate as well.
When you buy a bow, if you don't know what you're looking for, you run the risk 
of buying something that will encourage you to form bad habits which will be 
very hard to break later.  And of course, even with a bow that is right for you
you can do the same thing.

Some standard technical things would be to try to keep the bow as perfectly
perpendicular to the strings as possible when playing, to find a bow hold
which balances the bow in your hand/on the strings and to remember to stay
relaxed (if you fight with a bass and a bow, chances are they'll win).

Hope this helps.

Paul

    I studied accoustic for many years.  I like  a French Bow. 
    Take a least a few lessons to learn proper bowing technique.    
    F. Simandle (sp) is the Bible for bass players.
    
    

    I also studied upright.  I was taught the German bow, mostly because
    that was what my teacher favored.  German bow is initially awkward
    but offers (I think) better, more natural leverage than the French
    and makes it easier to get a good tone.

    Good bows cost beaucoup bucks.

    /rick

    
    I figured this might be the best place to put this....
    
    A friend of mine would very much like to learn to play bass, so
    he went out and borrowed one from another friend.       
                                                            
    I've been showing him some exercises and scales that I do, so he 
    can get his fingers hardened (he hasn't played a guitar before), 
    and also some simple runs that I've picked up from listening to 
    various records.  Obviously, I can't *teach* the guy to play, 
    coz I'm not a bassist, but what I m hoping to do is give him an 
    appetiser for playing, and he will then hopefully then seek 
    lessons.                            
                                                                  
    So, have any of you bassists out there got any exercises for a
    *complete* beginner on bass ?? Are there specific licks or runs
    that *you* have found useful in learning, or that were simple, 
    but sounded great (so as to keep him interested) ??
                                                      
    Cheers,
    -Tony                                                            

Here are some common bass licks.  All are movable.  The note marked "R" is the 
root of the chord you're playing.  To simplify things I've put numbers in where 
you place you fingers (the fret is to the right, the string below) which 
represents the *scale degree* not the finger to use.  Left out is rhythmic 
notation but most of these licks are pretty obvious.

	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  3	|	|	|   5	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|  R	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************

	1. The most basic rock and roll bass lick:

	R-3-5-3 or R-R-3-3-5-5-3-3




	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  6	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  3	|	|	|   5	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|  R	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************

	2. This variation is common in Chuck Berry songs:

	R-3-5-6 or R-R-3-3-5-5-6-6 or R-3-5-6-5-3, etc.

	Syncopate for Elvis Presley or New Orleans:

	R-3-5-6-5



	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  6    |  b7	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  3	|	|	|   5	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|  R	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************

	3. This gives a rockabilly feel:

	R-3-5-6-7-6-5-3




	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  6	|	|	|   R*	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  3	|	|	|   5	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|  R	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************

	4. Walking blues:

	R-3-5-6-R*-6-5-3, R-3-5-3-R*-6-5-3, etc.




	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  	|  b7	|	|   R*	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  3	|	|	|   5	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|  R	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************

	5. Variant on walking blues:

	R-3-5-b7-R*-b7-5-3, R-3-5-b7-R*-b7, etc.




	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  	|  b7	|	|   R*	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  	|	|	|   5	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|  R	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************
	
	6.  This is a killer pattern:

	For "Whole Lotta Love":

	5-b7-5-b7-R-R*-R*-R*

	For "I'm A Man"

	5-b7-R-R*-R*-R*-R*-R*

	For "Low Spark of High Heeled Boys"

	5-b7-R-R*-R*-5-R-R*-R*

	For "Shotgun" (Jr. Walker)

	R(or R*)-R(R*)-5-b7-5-b7-5

	Blues variants:

	R-5-b7-R*-b7-5, R-R*-b7-5, R-R*-5-b7-5, etc.  Try using triplets on 
	latter part of the riff



	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|  b7	|	|   R*	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  	|  4	|   b5	|   5	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  	|  R	|	|   	|   b3	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|  	|	|	|   b7	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************
	
	7. Blues lick used in "Messing With the Kid", variation commonly used
	by Jack Bruce in many Cream tunes: 

	R*-b7-5-b5-4-b3-R-b7-R  (try staying on R* for a measure before 
	descending)	



	*****************************************************************
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  R	|	|	|   	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|  5	|  	|   6	|   b7	|	|	|	|
	-----------------------------------------------------------------
	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|	|
	*****************************************************************

	8.  Common Jimmy Reed style bass lines (like Stevie Ray Vaughan, 
	Thunderbirds, Ronnie Earl, etc.)

	R-6-5-6, R-b7-5-b7, R-6-5-6-b7, etc.  Notice this is a lower position 
	variation on the run used for "Whole Lotta Love", etc.

    Can anybody give me some pointers on choosing a bass guitar and
    a good book to get started.  I can read music, I am mainly interested
    in playing bass with jazz music.  Any information would be appreciated.

    You might want to try to find a book called _The Improvisors Bass
    Method_.  I haven't seen it, but it's published by the same people
    who put out _The New Real Book_ (which I like a lot) and it's gotten
    rave endorsements from Eddie Gomez, Rufus Reid, et.al.
    
    Paul

    If your interested in taking some lessons, go see my
    jar_head_type_buddy Jeff Lange in Stow.  He's great.
    
    jc

    This has been an inactive topic for some time so I don't know how many
    of you will see this. But one technique in particular that I just can't
    seem to get is to be able to do a good roll. Do those of you who can
    use three fingers or two? Did it take you a long time to develop or am
    I just not dexterous enough?
    
    Another technique that I need to perfect is the gliss - a roll while
    sliding a fingered note down (or up)  the neck. Anybody got input on
    this?
    
    "Sakman"
    

    
    Depends on what you mean by a "roll".  I usually only hear that term
    used in conjunction with banjo technique.
    
    I personally don't know any players who use more than two fingers to
    pluck with, but some bassists use all four, Glen Moore of Oregon and
    Fernando Saunders for example.  I used to room with a banjo player,
    though, and he would use his banjo rolls on my bass and get some wicked
    funk lines happening.
    
    If you mean simply playing rapid passages with alternating fingers,
    getting up to speed may take some time.  What I *still* work on is
    trying to get an even attack from each finger.  Playing patterns that
    swing, an uneven attack is disguised by the rhythm, but for duplicating
    "chugging" parts such as heard in lots of hard rock, an even attack is
    very important.  I just set the metronome up to some ungodly tempo and
    have at it.  Currently my drop-dead point is playing 8th notes at about
    180 bpm.  I'm good for about five minutes before my fingers fall off.
    
    As far as glisses, I just *do* them, and often the starting point for a
    slide is wherever my hand happens to be (i.e. I often don't try for a
    particualr pitch).  Sounds fine to me, but then I'm using it sort of
    like a blob of passing tones.....
    
    							Brian

    Yeah, the "roll" I meant was like a drum roll; 32nd notes. By your
    example of 8th notes at 180 bpm, I'm not sure how fast that is - three
    notes per second or 12. I hope it's closer to three - I can do that. 12
    - never, and I might as well give up.
    
    Right now I use a gliss between parts, maybe as an intro to the solo
    coming.  I have to use a pick to do it
    and when I hit it all notes clean, it really sounds trick. Most of the
    time I miss somewhere. No one seems to notice, but it bothers the hell
    outta me. I know I should do something like you (Brian Rost) do to
    practice, but somehow I just never developed my practice into a
    routine. Maybe that's the key after all, eh?
    
    "Sakman"
    
     

    Lessee... 180 BPM = 180 1/4 notes = 360 1/8 notes per minute = 6 notes
    per second = 12 1/16 notes per second = 24 1/32 per second...
    
    At a more leisurely 120 BPM: 2 1/4 notes per sec = 4 1/8 per sec = 
    8 1/16 per = 16 1/32 per.
    
    Is anyone actually capable of doing that for more than a handful of
    notes?
    
    Edd

    One way I practice this is starting the roll with two fingers and
    adding a third without changing the accent (and also adding four) and
    going back to two with no perceptable difference in spacing and going
    back and fourth. for me this was important because If I had to keep
    this up for an extended period of time when my fingers fall off using
    two I would go to three and I could go much longer ect. Another thing we
    used to do is my drummer and I would start a slow roll and increase the
    tempo and I found that I would have to start with two and at a certin
    speed I would go to three fingers (still not doing triplets) to keep
    the exact beet with him and when he really started to cook I would go
    to four fingers and we could keep the same high tempo untill we both
    dropped.  I also still do the previously mentioned technique of using
    my drum machine as a metronome and practicing my timing at various
    speeds.  I feel that this has really helped my timing dramaticly.
    
    I know this was not very clear but I gave it a try anyway.
    
    Will

    Whaddya know...just read an article on Billy Sheehan last night (it's
    in the new Bass Player issue) and he uses three fingers.  He does a
    roll similar to the way people "drum" their fingers, i.e. he starts
    with the ring finger, them the index, then the middle, then the ring,
    etc.  
    
    This has obvious advantages for rapid-fire triplets.  I may try it out.
    
    						Brian

    What'd I tell ya???  ;^)
    
    I play bass with 3 fingers, usually in sets of 2. Either index and
    middle, or middle and ring. I seem to switch fairly unconsciously 
    betwixt them, although sometimes I'll have all 3 going. The pinky
    not only isn't strong enough, but seems to require more wrist-twist
    to bring it into line than it's worth....
    
    I'm sitting here drumming 3 fingers on my desk, and am surprised to
    find how much faster I can go if I do ring, middle, index, as opposed
    to index, middle, ring....
    
    Edd

    
    	This is a standard classical technique used a lot in Spanish (esp
    Flamenco) type music....bet it's great on a bass.
    
    Cheers
    		Pete.