Conference napalm::guitar

    My experience...
    
    My philosphy is to apply all the effects to the guitar signal, then
    reproduce the sound using an amplifier and speakers as faithfully as
    possible.  I.e. the amplifier should just amplify the sound, no
    colouration.  Hence...
    
    I use a Samson Servo 150.  (2 x 55Watts into 8 ohms a lot more into 4
    ohms).  It is a 2U rack mounted.  Jack socket inputs.  Outputs are Jack
    socket or some clip type arrangement to clip on to bare wires. 
    Controls are just 41 step volume for each channel.  LEDs are for "idle"
    and "clipping".  Unlike Hi-Fi amplifiers, the sound is clean right the
    way up to clipping.  I regularly use it on full blast with no problems.
    
    It is advertised as a studio amp but balances well with a 50yr old
    drummer and a Carlsboro Marlin 150 Watt PA.
    
    If you need more power, there's a Samson 240 and 500.
    
    I am extremely happy with mine.  My only regret is that I couldn't
    afford a higher output one so that we could put the bass through it too
    (and save lugging his gear around).  The amp is made in the US (as can
    be deduced from the instruction manual :-) and I use it in the UK on
    220/240 Volts.)
    
    
    tmp

    
    Hmm - I used to think that power amps shouldn't colour the sound,
    but I changed my mind.  For years I used a Lee Jackson 100wpc
    transistor amp...And recently upgraded to a new Marshall 9200
    (all tube, 100wpc) and was blown away.  It's louder and warmer.
    

    
    The "Switch Track" deal on the Boogie 2:90 is rather dramatic
    in the sound coloring department.  I'm sold on the "Deep" and
    "Modern" switches (both 'on' at once), where the tonal characters
    are almost 'scooped'- VERY warm, bright.  VERY loud.
    
    BTW, I'm STILL feeling out the new rack gear I bought a while back.
    Trying to squeeze in every second to wind through everything the
    gear has to offer.  MB-details and reviews to come...
    
    Kev --
    

    RE: .2
    
    I'm open to persuasion on this one.  I want to get a new amp but want
    it to be versatile enough to amplify vocals and taped music, but I'm
    not sure how much coloration the Marshall is going to add.  I'll need
    to do some serious auditioning.
    
    tmp

Umm - The marshall and boogie tube-amps are guitar amps, not vox
amps.  Seems to me that trying to run vocals thru a valve-amp would
be...ummm...  Interesting.

    John Petrucci of Dream Theater uses the Boogie 2:90 along with the
    TriAxis.  He always leaves the "Deep" and "Modern" switches on,
    fwiw, and runs his rig in stereo.

    	The issue raised in this note has been discussed in this
    notes file for nearly 10 years, so trying to answer the question
    in a single reply seems impossible. There are 2 schools of thought.
    One school believes that tubes are the only way to go. The other
    school is more open minded to trying solid state solutions.
    
	In my humble opinion, the best guitar tones are created using
    (all-tube) guitar amps. The best way to get good distortion is to
    push the amp's power stage into saturation. I've tried ton's of
    differant preamps and none of them provide good distortion on their
    own without help from the power stage. 

	That said, I still own a guitar rack, which consists of a 
    Mesa Boogie studio preamp, and a midiverbII. I've considered
    getting an all-tube power amp and some speakers to complete this
    system, but it's never been a priority. When I play outside my
    home studio, I still prefer to play through a combo amp, usually
    a Fender Deluxe Reverb, or (when more volume is needed) a larger
    amp such as a Vibralux/Super/4x10 Bassman/ etc. 

	The power amps that I would consider include the following 
    in no special order:

	Mesa Boogie 50/50. This amp has more power than I would ever
  	need. Some people consider this a +, since the power is there
	when you need it. It can also be a negative, since you cannot
	push the amp into distortion without being too loud. The 50/50
	sells for about $699 which I suppose is a fair price for a 
	hand-built amp, but it would be hard to justify on my budget.

	Mesa Boogie 20/20. This is a new addition to the Mesa Boogie
	line which uses EL84 power tubes to produce 20 wpc. This would
	be perfect for a small rig where you want to be able to crank
	the power amp into distortion without being too loud. Don't
	underestimate this amp. 20 watts of tube power is similar to 
	100 watts of solid-state power. I haven't heard one but I'd
	like to check one out. Bear in mind that I like to think small
	and would probably be using 2 speaker cabs with 1 12" speaker
	in each so this amp would be perfectly sized for the rig I have
	in mind. I believe these amps sell for ~$499.

	Peavey Classic Series Power amps - These amps have been around
	for several years, but they don't appear to be super popular.
	Peavey may have discontinued these, but I'm not up on their 
	latest line. If I remember correctly, the original offerings were
	the 60/60 and the 120/120. Later versions included a resonance
	control ala the 5150 amps. Prices are considerably lower than
	the comparable Boogies.

	Here's another suggestion to keep in mind. If you own an amp
	that has an efx loop, the efx return jack is a direct input
	into the amps power section. You can connect any preamp you like
	to this jack and bypass the amps own preamp. I got excellant results
	connecting my Mesa Boogie preamp into the efx return jack on my
	Fender "The Twin" amp. Of course, I'd need 2 of them to get stereo.

	Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall that the Peavey
	Classic 50 amp has an efx loop and can be used in this mode. If
	that is the case the best approach for the person in .0 may be to
	simply buy another one and use the 2 amps for left and right.
        This may also be the cheapest solution as rack-mount all-tube
        power amps are quite expensive and speakers are a sparate expense.
    
	Your mileage may vary.

        Mark (mostly read-only of late)

    
    RE. .6 as most of us are well aware, Coop used to own a Triaxis
    preamp and initally, was delighted with it. He was talking about
    getting a MB power amp to go along with it but for some reason, 
    he suddenly did an about face and sold the Triaxis to DB2 (David
    Bottom, maineiac and former Deccie). After that he returned to 
    being a Marshall bigot wielding enough power to kill small animals
    with a single note. I believe the Marshall power amp he's using 
    is one of the assault weapons banned by the US gov.  Jeff, was there
    a 2-week waiting period before you could buy it?
    
    Mark

    Wagagaga...Small animals...  :-)
    
    No two-week waiting period (except for shipping)...But, I did have 
    to apply for a permit from the ATF...  ;-)
    
    Yep, I owned the tri-axis, and it was a great pre-amp, but with my ADA
    Mp1 background I really wanted the slay-me bass response without the
    mud.  The TriAxis had a real tight bottom end, but didn't quite extend
    into the depths I wanted...
    
    Hind-site being 20/20, I feel like the TriAxis with this marshall amp, 
    or a 2:90 (Like Kev's) would've been a crankin' rig.  Perhaps I'll move
    back to Massachusetts someday, and Kevin and I will have a stand-off at
    20 paces...  It WOULD be fun to compare 'notes'.  FWIW, the rig is SO 
    Marshall, even a Marshall bigot (as opposed to a MIDI Rack Puke) would 
    love it...It's tube AND British all the way.
    
    Anyway, to stay on track, I beleive that if I'd have had my new power
    amp with my TriAx, I would've kept the TriAx.  The power amp makes a 
    big diff to me...And I was one who thought "clean power amp, nasty Pre"
    I stand corrected.

      I have been feeding my rack signal (H&K ACCESS w/ Rocktron signal
    processing) into a VOX AC30TB for the last few months with very good
    results. Even I was surprised at how well the rack/combo solution
    matched up. I was also surprised at how loud a 33 watt VOX could be!
    Sounds as loud as my old Lee Jackson 100 watt (per channel) solid state
    power amp to me! It definitely has more character than the Jackson
    and if I can play in a club with the VOX volume at the mid-point
    (no master volume here!), it is awesome. 
      That said, I tried something different on last Saturday's gig. I
    brought out the Rocktron Velocity 300 power amp and H&K 2X12 cabinet
    and got re-aquainted with my old rack rig. Hmmm - Not bad at all and 
    I'll still be using it from time to time. I would recommend checking
    out the Rocktron Velocity power amps as an possible alternative to a
    tube unit. They do make a VELOCITY 120 that is 60 watts per channel
    which is suitable for many bands and it is fairly inexpensive compared to
    their larger wattage power amps. 
       I can pretty much switch at will between the two set ups because the 
    programmable presets don't change. It's just a matter of how much I
    want to carry around and if I need a LOT of power. I'd say the AC30 can
    cut it for 95% of our gigs. I'm doing a "party on the patio" gig this 
    evening with the VOX set up. 

    
    To add to the confusion, my cousin has a solo act that he has been
    making a living off of for the last 10 years or so. He plays guitar
    and sings along with midi sequenced accompanyment. Over the years
    he has tried every concievable choice for sound reinforcement. The
    rig he has stuck with for more the 6 years consists of a Roland
    GP8 cranked directly into his PA system. I have to admit, he get's
    great tone from this rig. His biggest motivation for doing this is
    that he has complete control over his on-stage volume as well as
    the guitar tone that his audience hears. He had trouble balancing
    this when using a miced guitar amp. 
    
	About a year ago, he recorded a Compact disk of his original
    material. He demoed several differant amps and preamps to see what
    would provide the best sound to tape. Guess what....He ended up
    recording the entire disk (all electric guitar parts) with the GP8.
    His tone on the resulting disk is great, and as you know I'm a Fender
    tube amp bigot!!! Go Figure???  One thing to keep in mind is that
    his live act is basically a GB act, and his original material runs
    the range from ballads, to country-rock tunes, to more modern sounding
    arrangements. He doesn't do much in the way of Blues, or Shred. For
    his purposes, the GP8 has earned it's keep. I believe his GP8 has
    paid for itself about 1000 times over by now. 
    
    	So I have to say that for some folks and for some applications,
    using a preamp cranked directly into a PA system works. It has
    some advantages over using a miced up amp, and of course, there are
    disadvantages. I heard another band about a year ago in which the
    lead player was playing through a Mesa Boogie Quad preamp cranked
    directly into a PA system. His tone was very good, and he was able
    to do the Carlos Santana infinate sustain thang with one hand tied
    behind his back, so some folks have made this technique work for
    them. 
    
	Mark
    

    
    RE: -9
    
    >> Perhaps I'll move back to Massachusetts someday, and Kevin and
    >> I will have a stand-off at 20 paces...
    
    ...As long as we get to jam on "Beyond The Black" by Metal Church.
    
    Kev --
    

    Mark, 
    You mentioned in note .7 that you run a Fender Deluxe Reverb on
    occasion. This is the "new" Fender line i am presuming. How about a
    quick review? I dropped down to the local shop and tested a Deluxe,
    60w, sounded amazing, great reverb w 2x12's. This Deluxe of
    yours,40w,2x10's or 1x12? I'm looking for a small/mid sized combo to
    lug around. Is it loud enough on stage?
    
    -kev

    I'm not Mark, but since I own both a Fender Deluxe Reverb and a
    Blues Deluxe, I guess I'm qualified to answer...
    
    The Deluxe Reverb is not a "new" line model.  It is currently available
    as a '65 re-issue model.   As such, it is a "vintage" design -- no
    overdriven pre-amp or channel switching.  The power amp contains two
    6V6 power tubes that pump out about 22 watts into a single 12"
    speaker.   Fender made this amp for close to twenty years, in both
    the original black face and the later silver face form.  Unlike 
    most other amp lines, Fender didn't monkey around with the design
    after of the Deluxe Reverb after the CBS buyout, so the silver face
    ones can sound as good as the black face ones.
    
    The Deluxe Reverb's claim to fame is its smooth distortion when
    cranked.  At only 22 watts, cranked is not ear shattering, so
    you can get true power-tube distortion without deafening volumes.
    It might be louder than you'd guess.  Is it loud enough for stage?
    Depends on what style of music you play.  If you need loud and
    clean, probably not.   If you play blues at a moderate volume
    level, you might be a very happy camper.  The '65 reissue is
    a great amp if you worship classic fender tone.  If you need
    more volume, go with the reissue Vibraverb.
    
    There is also a "Blues Deluxe" in the current line with 40 watts
    into 2x10" or 1x12" speaker(s).  I have the 1x12" version.  There
    is also a Blues Deville which is a similiar style amp with 
    more gain and 60 watts.  Both amps have vintage (either tweed
    or cream tolex) styling, but offer channel switching and a
    modern (but still tube) pre-amp.  Great values for the $$$,
    and both are loud enough for stage (unless your band's really
    loud).

    RE: .12
    
    Okay Kev, as long as we can also jam PullMeUnder, Voices, and hell,
    lets drag db over for some "Shadows", "Under A Glass Moon" and "Wait 
    For Sleep"...                   :-)

    Oh!  I forgot; this is the tube-power amp topic.
    
    Check out the latest Carvin Catalog...  They've got a 2-space,
    50wpc (all-tube), bridge-able power amp for like $450.
    
    Hmmmm...

    The Deluxe Reverb that I use (almost exclusively) is a 1965 reissue
    model (22 watts of 6V6 power into a single 12" speaker). 
    
    See the Fender Amp note for a review (Note #1011). To sum it
    up in one word, it's "Killer".
    
    Mark 

    There's a guitarist right here at DEC who gigged FOR YEARS with nothing
    but a blackface Deluxe Reverb and a couple of stompers, doing everything
    from Hendrixy rock to mainstream jazz.  Sounded mighty good, too.
    

    Just reinforces the theory that ones tone comes from the fingers,
    not the rig (although the rig helps...:-).

    Jim and Mark, thanks for the feedback! I'm presently in a blues
    band,and LOVE that Fender tone. Sounds like what i'm looking for. The
    reissue prices are a little far out for me. I tried the Blues Deville
    last week...way cool ($849 + tx Can.).And can't wait till they get one
    of those little Deluxe's in.For $600, i don't think i can go wrong!
    
    -kev

    
    	You can get the 4 10" Blues DeVille for $599 and under
    	in the U.S.  
    
    	I love the tone too!!  Gotta join a band so I can turn
    	it up over 2.
    
    	Tom
    

    I think I paid $430 (U.S.) for my Blues Deluxe. 
    
    If you want the "real" vintage vibe, without paying black face
    dollars, early silver face Deluxe Reverbs are actually closer
    to a real '65 Deluxe Reverb than the '65 reissue (point to point
    wiring, etc.).  There are still a lot of them out there.  
    I bought my '68 Deluxe Reverb used for $250, but its been quite
    a while since I've seen one (in good shape) for under $350. 
    At $350 + about $80 for new tubes, you'll still come in
    way under the cost of the '65 re-issue.
    
    Of course with the new amp, you'll get new pots, new capacitors,
    and a warranty...
    
    Jim

    Stop all this '65 deluze reverb talk -- you're all giving me the GTS!!

    For more gnads in your Deluxe, you can modify em to accept 6L6s or
    EL-34s
    

    RE: modifying for 6L6s or EL-34s
    
    Sacrilege!  Sure, you'll get more power, but 6V6s are crucial to
    the Deluxe Reverb tone!!! (best sounding power tubes on earth 
    IMHO.)  
    
    On the other hand, Neil Young had someone modify his tweed Deluxe 
    for 6L6s, and I know how revered he is in this conference...
    
    In "The Tube Amp Book" (or whatever its called) Aspen Pitman 
    (the Groove Tubes guy) calls the Deluxe Reverb  his "desert island" 
    pick for an amp.  (I'd personally pick a marshall stack, but
    only 'cause it would make a better raft.)
    
    Jim

    
    Then of course, if you're into splitting boulders or playing
    the next Woodstock, you could always snag Boogie's 4-space
    monster, the "Coliseum", which according to the books is blowing
    out 300+ watts...!
    
    Alot of folks tried steering me out of Boogie-land saying "Aw
    c'mon, a grand$ for a power amp?!?  You must be nuts!!"  Well, 
    after trying just about everything up and down the road, the
    2:90 was simply the balls AND accentuated *every* nuance that their
    TriAxis plows out.  I remember comparing ta Peavey power amp with
    the TriAxis (I think it was a 50/50, not sure), and then wiring 
    in a 2:90 for comparison:  big difference.  The "Switch Track"
    deal is awesome and I'll definitely go along with the Boogie
    folks who claim that their 2:90 is the ultimate TriAxis companion.
    
    Now I really don't know how this one would do outside this avenue
    I've taken with the TriAxis.  These are just some very simple
    observations and opinions regarding some of Mesa-Boogies gear.
    VERY pricey stuff yes.  But, it's built *real* nice and it sounds
    absolutely killer for some of the heavier things I'm into.
    
    Kev --
    
    
    

    
    ...By the way, I think a bunch of us need to get together
       and jam/talk/rock + do the gear thing someplace that
       can afford some volume and allow for the swilling of a
       few pops.

    re swilling
    
    Sounds good to me!
    
    re Deluxes
    
    As if by some kozmic coincidence, saw Garrison Fewell at Coffee, Tea and
    Melody this weekend doing the jazz trio thing with an L5 and a silver
    panel Deluxe Reverb.  Sublime
    

    I was going to say the same thing about the Deluxe and the 6V6. INHO
    the 6V6 is the best sounding output tube for guitar amps, and changing
    to something else would be a waste. For this reason, I kind of wish
    that Mesa Boogie would have designed their 20/20 power amp with 6V6's.
    Not that I'm planning to buy one any time soon. I'd still like to hear
    one.
    
    Mark

    Gerrison Fewell is an excellent player, but what a jerk!!  I had him
    for a class or two at Berklee.  Just a real arrogant personality.

    That's interesting.  I was talking with him after the gig and was
    surprised how open and friendly he was.  Maybe he was just in a
    good mood; CTM has a nice vibe and the audience was very
    appreciative.
    
    /rick

    Actually checked out that new Blues DEluxe this week....AMAZING!
    
    -k

    This is a cool discussion 'bout amps - I'll add my $.02 worth.
    For old guys (or those of us who cannot lift that really cool stuff
    anymore) I've found a nice  alternate for those heavy amps.  I've been
    using a Stewart 50wpc stereo amp.  It's only 3.5 pounds, which keeps me
    from seeing the physical terrorist....er, I mean therapist.
    Nice warm sound.  I had tried a standard PA style amp for a while, but
    it was too clean and accurate.
    
         With response to COOP  (hi Jeff!)   I tried my Carvin preamp
    (Quad-X) right next to his Triaxis and in comparison, I thought the
    Boogie sounded rather "solid state".  
        Understandably, he had only had the triaxis for a few hours and
    might have been able to get a better sound...  But still.  
   ( I know this is power amp discussion, but we do wander around, eh?)
    
    Anyone else have a chance to try a side-by-side comparison of this
    nature?  Not all tubes are created equal.   (and I'm admittedly bias
    toward the Quad-X.)
    
    Mike
        
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Hi Mike - welcome to GUITAR.  
    
    I actually physically recruited Mike - We needed more Colorado-ites
    in here.  :-)
    
    RE: TriAxis sounding solid-state-ish
    
    Agreed, but since this is the Rack/Tube topic, I'll blame it on the
    SOLID STATE power amp I was using then.  :-)
    

    
    	Does this guy also have a belt-buckle amp that runs on 2 "C"
    	batteries [not included]?
    
    	8^)
    

    Hey Coop - Thanks - good to be here.
    You took the "criticism" of the TriAxis very well.  Most Guitar junkies
    are more offended by such public comparisons.  Very impressive.
    (are you *sure* you're a guitar player?)   just kidding....
    We need to get together again to test Rack/Tube power amps 'n stuff. 
    I'd like to see if my compromise for light weight has hurt the sound.
    Are you (or any other Colorado Springs-ites) up for some noodling?
    Mike
    

    This discussion really is about Tube / non-Tube and not Rackmount /
    non-rack, eh?
    'cuz now there are lots of manufacturers doing nice tube gear with rack
    ears.    "once you go rack, you'll never go back"       ...or is that
    not true for some??
    Has anyone built a rack system and then gone back to the old "plug in
    all those boxes" thing again?
    
    It took me years to build a complete rack system so I could pitch all
    that stomp box weirdness and cable mangle madness.   (and 9v batteries
    or wall warts, and adaptors, and....)   I couldn't see going back.
    
    - just remember..... it's all toys.
    Mike
    

    re: -.1
    
      I, for one, can't seem to be back. Even when I went with a standard
    vintage combo (VOX AC30TB), I still get my effects from rack units.
    I cringe when I see some of the early "do it all" multi-effects that
    never seemed to cut it for me (ART SGE/Digitech GSP-21). I believe the
    newer offerings are far superior (Marshall JFX-1/Rocktron Replifex.
    
      I have got my rack down to a minimum of cables and the internals
    are all tie wrapped neatly. I can't go back.
    
    		

    Mike - 
    
    You learn to hear and (sometimes) value other folks opinions in this
    conference - If one gets his nose all outta joint cuz someone else
    prefers a fender combo to a 12 space rack fulla toize, then one is
    gonna get the stuffin' stomped outta her/himself here.  :-)  Frankly,
    I'd like to have my rig the way it is, anna PV 4x10 tweed combo for 
    garage jams and that...
    
    To John 'Boom' Reaumes point, I ran my JMP-1 into an ole Ampeg Gemini
    the other day and had a ball (it's a little tough to drive a 100wt
    Marshall into power-tube overdrive, ya know).  
    
    Mike - come over again, and we'll plug your Carvin Pre (QuadX?) into my 
    Marshall power amp and see how she sounds!

    Jeff:   OK.   I value the chance to play toys anytime.  If we don't
    learn anything, at least we will get the volume we need for the week!
    
    I'm in the toy buying mode for a while, so if you have anything that
    sounds better - I need to see it!   (money is a terrible thing to
    waste)
    
    Mike
    

    Steve:
    I kinda did the same when I went from processors to tubes - but did the
    "hi-tech" version and still used the preamp-power amp combo.  Hmmmm. 
    Maybe I didn't go far enough.....
    
    I like it when I go from "mondo effects" back to "straight into the
    amp" 'cuz it keeps you from using effects as a crutch.  ...and also,
    like you pointed out, the sound can be so much bigger.  I seem to get
    more dynamic range when I lose the extra stuff and simplify. 
    
    Even if I use "studio quality" effects, there is something that gets
    lost..    Could it be the cables or all the input/output OP-amps that
    degrade it??   or maybe it's the crutch getting in the way.
    
    ..another thought - just for grins.   Maybe the universe is not really
    closed.... its a ground loop.  The endless loop.  You'll be back to
     
    stomp boxes before you
    realize what happened!.    :-)   ROFL                         
    Mike