Conference napalm::guitar

	Often boards have both HiZ and LoZ outs - have you checked for that?
If all you have is LoZ outs from your board, you can either buy the HiZ to LoZ 
transformers (they're about $12 - you'll need 4) or you might want to just look
for another EQ.  Using transformer's, I'm told, deteriorates the sound.  I 
haven't noticed a problem when I use them, but that's what I'm told.  You could
probably get away with not using a transformer on the out of your EQ, now that 
I think about it, because you're sending a line level signal and it is not as 
susceptible to noise (which is the reason for balanced 3-conductor cables).  The
main thing you'll need to be concerned with is making sure the cables on the 
other end of the snake get hooked up correctly to the amp.

	Here's how it would look:
------+                   +----+   
Mixer | ---> Xformer ---> | EQ | --->1/4" to 3-prong cable (1 line dead) --->
------+                   +----+   
             +-------+                                 +-----+
	---> | snake | ---> 3-prong to 1/4" cable ---> | amp |
             +-------+                                 +-----+

	I DON'T believe its a good idea to jury-rig the LoZ wiring to go into
a HiZ input.  You should use some kind of transformer.

	Changing the sends on your snake would accomplish more or less the same 
result - you'd save having to have special cables.

	As far as the use of the BBE, where you use it depends on what you want 
out of it.  I'd say a devise like that should be run in a channel loop as 
opposed to an effects loop, but that means you can only use it on one 
instr/voice.  If you wanted it on the whole mix, the way you had it is fine 
(although I'm not sure if EQ should come before BBE or the other way around).

	BTW, COMMUSIC has a number of discussions on cables, PA's etc.  Check
those out as well.

	Dan

     -sorry guy but you can't really just  make an adapter that easily
    the xlr's are balanced and a much lower impedance then the 1/4"plug
    type circuit.....try radio shat they sell little converters i think..
    or your favorite music dealer should have 'em.They havea little
    teenie weenie transformer to convert the signal....they work well
    and only cost 5-10$
    
    
    
    play nice,
    -Bill

RE < Note 1780.2 by HAMER::KRON "Lost in a strange land" >

	No, you misunderstood what I said...  Use a transformer from the mixer 
to the EQ, but there's no real need to change the EQ'd signal back to a balanced
signal for the snake - a cable that only uses the two conductors of the XLR 
should do just fine.

	Dan

    What kind of eq do you own ? I have a Rane ME15 which has 1/4"
    jacks, but the jacks are stereo (rts) type jacks, and are actually
    balanced outputs. You wire up a cable with stereo (rts) jacks
    on one end, and xlr on the other. RTS stands for ring,tip,sleeve.
    The manual I got with my Rane eq includes an entire page of
    possible hookup configurations. 
    
    If your eq has 1/4" mono jacks with only a tip and sleeve connection,
    you will need to leave one of the pins on the xlr jack floating, as
    apposed to shorting them together.
    
    Another possibility is to place the eq right near the power amps.
    run the output of your pa down the balanced send of your snake, and
    use a xlr-1/4" transformer to interface the eq.
    
    If you can provide more information (ie whether your eq has mono
    or stereo (rts) jacks for starters), I might be able to tell you
    how to hook it up.
    
    Mark
    

RE: .2

"Play nice,"

And just what the hell is that supposed to mean !  Agagagaga.  Just kidding.
;)

Thanks folks.

The kind of EQ I have is an Ibanez GE1502  (Graphic EQ 15 band, two channel
I guess).  I didn't get a manual with it, so I don't know the connections...
Maybe I can pull it apart and figure it out.  The transformer idea was 
considered, but they always seemed a little "mickey mouse" for a PA...Perhaps 
I'm just ASSuming they don't work well.  I was thinking that those
cords that go from XLR to 1/4" might work...But I don't have any (again, I
always thought they were a little Mickey Mouse.

The other possibility would be to go from the MAIN out (XLR) to the BBE (which
has a XLR input and output) and out of the BBE 1/4" output thru the EQ to the 
power amps.

I hate PA's and stuff.  I'm a guitar player (or I pretend to be) I hate worrying
about PA crap...But !  We just got ourselves a fulltime sound man, so that'll be
nice.

jc

    
    >>I hate pa's and stuff<<
    
    I hate working with equipment I don't understand. I hate walking
    around with misconceptions thinking I know what I am talking
    about. Peavey put out an excellant explanation of PA system
    basics, including balanced vs unbalanced systems, low vs high
    impedance, how transformer balancing works, floating grounds,
    etc. I have seen this writeup in their Professional sound systems
    catalougue.
    
    Niel Orsi (a well known soundman and fellow DECCIE) has provided
    a great deal of information and has cleared up many misconceptions
    (at least in my mind) about PA systems. Drop him a line, and he can
    probably advise you better than anyone I can think of.
    
    Mark Jacques
    
    
    

    Yep, that's the guy. Niel provided the sound for all of the DECJAMS
    that we had in Worcester at "Uptown". 
    
    Mark

	Hi Mark
		
	OK Coop, here goes,		

>There are three wires in a XLR, which ones do I short together on the
>1/4" jack  when I go to solder.

>Trouble is, the EQ has 1/4" input and output jacks...The board and
>snake have XLR three-prongers.  Sould I convert the snakes monitor
>and main sends to be 1/4", so I can run my EQ ?

	You should have six cables, each with an XLR on one end, and a
	1/4" phone plug on the other end. Two for mixer (main and monitor)
	to EQ, two for EQ (or BBE) to snake, and two for snake box to amps. 
	Also, you won't have to change all the connectors on the snake.
	If you're using regular single conductor guitar cable, then the
	connections should be;

		Pin #1 of the XLR to shield (gnd)

		Pin #2 (-) to the shield also. 

	Ideally, you should use two conductor (microphone) cable
	with the second conductor on pin #2 of the XLR, and the other 
	end soldered to the shield at the phone plug. This would, at
	least, give you interference immunity for the length of the 
	cable, which is the major reason for using balanced lines.
		
		Pin #3 (+) soldered to wire that connects to the
			   tip of the 1/4" phone plug.

	This works on both transformer balanced AND electronically (op-amps)
	balanced outputs, and this must be done for your system to work 
	correctly. If you do not short pin #2 to gnd, gain is cut in half,
	which may account for clipping the main output of the mixer, in
	the attempt to get enough out of the system.
	
	BTW, if you have a unit that has 1/4" phone TRS balanced inputs
	and outputs, you can use regular guitar cords to patch things
	together. Pin #2 (ring connection) gets grounded automatically
	when you plug in.

	Once you get all this done, check all connections with an ohmmeter
	and check for shorts against the other connections.

>Another question.  I have a BBE single channel Sonic Maximizer.
>Should I run this in mine with the EQ, or should I run it in one of the FX 
>loops with either the DDL or DDR ??

	About the Sonic Minimizer, use it to hold the door open
	when you're unloading your gear, or last in the main
	out line. :^) These work best when recording, if at all.

>What I've been doing (and I get a lot of clipping this way) is coming
>out of the boards main send, thru the EQ, thru the BBE and into the snake to
>the power amps...Of course, this is with another snake...one with 1/4" sends.
	
	Make sure that the MIXER-->RACK-->SNAKE-->AMPS connections are
	right. If the problem still exists, then you should check these
	things;

	A) Channel inputs gains may be set too low. Gotta make'em hot
	without clipping the channel. And flatten all channel EQ's.

	B) Bypass the BBE during the sound check, until you can see things
	are OK.

	C) Check the gain pot on the EQ. Generally, it should be at unity,
	i.e., 0dBV, which is at 12 o'clock on a rotary pot, or in the
	middle for a slide pot. If you need to, adjust it to something above
	unity, and bring the mains on the mixer down to a reasonable level.
	You definitely don't wanna be clipping the board. But be careful,
	EQ's generally get noisy above unity.

	D) Power amp gain pots may be turned down to low. Start with gain
	pots all the way up ON THE AMP driving the bass bins, then balance
	the mids and highs to the low end. You haven't said whether you are 
	using an outboard crossover or the Peavey cans, but either way, 
	it's a good place to start.
	
	E) Speaker connections should be phased properly. If not, you'll
	have them trying to cancel each other out and all the gain in
	the world ain't gonna help you.

	F) Your system may not be able to produce the SPL you need to do 
	the job. You may be pushing it beyond its limits. 

	I hope this helps

	Neal

Whoa...

Gotcha.

Thanks Neal ! 

BTW - I'm using SP2A's for mains, so I guess you can say I'm crossing
using the Peavy Cans...  (ergo, whatevers inside the SP2's!).
When we play the bigger places we use a CS1000 for some VOT A7 bass bins,
CV MID horns and AltecLansing horns.  I have a Rane 3way xover for that
application.

Thanks for all the advise though, I'll go play.

jc

    It sounds like the SP2A's have a passive x-over built into them, and
    you are sending them a full range signal. Passive x-overs are okay,
    but you always lose some power in the rc networks these circuits
    use to split the signal.
    
    Active xovers are prefered because you split the line level signal
    before the power amp. These maintain unity gain and nothing is lost 
    in an RC circuit.
    
    Peavey cans, are small plug ins that connect to the back of Peavey 
    power amps (ie. CS400's, CS800's, CS1200s). These cans split the 
    line level signal into high and low before they see the amplifier
    like any active x-over would. The highs come out one power amp channel, 
    and the lows come out the other. The main differance between using
    cans and a full function active x-over, is the cans are pre-set for
    a certain x-over freq, and are designed for unity gain. Active x-overs
    allow you the flexibility of selecting the x-over freq, and you can
    get some gain out of them if you need to.
    
    If you have an active x-over network, you could rewire the SP2A's
    so that you can bi-amp them for maximum efficiency. Some speakers
    have multiple inputs so you can bi-pass the passive x-over or use
    it.
    
    Mark
    

	Just a couple more things about the SP-2(A)'s;

	The built-in passive crossover has a pad (resistor network
	attenuator) circuit to match horn/spkr output, but also has
	a passive EQ filter to correct anomalies which occur in speaker
	systems like these, in order to make them sound more "natural". 
	When bi-amping the SP-2, these are bypassed. To me, SP-2(A)'s
	sound better actively crossed at 100-150Hz to a sub like the
	1-18" or FH-1. Above that, the SP-2's runs full range.
	
	Mark is right about power loss through passive crossovers, but at
	1.2K, it's not much if you don't push them real hard. Besides, it's
	not the -real- problem. A symptom , yes. If you've got the whole
	band, including drums and bass, going through a pair of SP-2A's,
	the 15" will suck up most of the power and the horn output drops.
	This problem is effectively eliminated when the SP-2(A)'s are
	crossed over down low to a sub, by letting the 15" in the SP-2A
	off the (LF) hook, and allowing to become much more efficient for
	lo-mids/mids/highs.

	I was at a Peavey seminar last year when Marty McCann demoed the
	SP-2A's. Bandwidth can be extended to 40Hz by blocking the longer
	of the two ports on the front baffle. BUT, he recommended it for
	DJ's and other moderate level use, not high level sound
	reinforcement. (Hey Coop, I have a feeling that I'm going to 
	regret telling you that).	

	Neal

I be likin' it loud ! (of course, you knew that ;)

Thanks dudes !   Playing at a medium sized club this weekend, and we'll try
some other tricks !

jc

    I didn't know where else top put this...
    
    If anyone is looking for a cheap but nice sounding high end to their PA
    system, I have found a real deal.  Parts Express is now selling a
    constant directivity horn for the alltime low price of ~$12, and they
    also have a new tweeter that screws into it (the horn uses EV's 1 3/8
    standard) for only $10!  I bought these last month and finally had a
    chance to hook them up over my theile cabs with EVM12L's.  For the
    price, they sound great!
    
    	The tweeter is a pieze driver, so no x-over is necessary - just run
    them in parallel.  The horn is made of very strong plastic and constant
    directivity is the way to go (all the companies have been switching
    over from radial designs to constant directivity in the last few years.
    
    	If you have ever bought horns and the drivers to go into them, you
    know that a single cd horn and even a cheap driver can run you in the
    neighborhood of $100 at least!  This is a deal that can satisfy most
    audiences and keep you from having to go broke buying or replacing
    drivers.
    
    	Part Express can be reached by calling 1-800-338-0531.  Ask them to
    send you a catalog - they have lots of other good deals - not only
    speakers and speaker cabinet accessories, but other electronics as
    well.
    
    	Dan
    

    No matter how dumb, I have to ask something about using effects with
    mixers in a live situation.
    
    I know you can control the saturation level of effects in each channel,
    but how can you simultaneously have different effects (presets) on 
    different channels? do you have to buy a processor for each channel?
    
    Thanks,
    Mike

    Yup, different processors for each channel.  You can `cheat' a little
    if your board has 2 effects loops, but you're still back to the same
    problem.
    
    Scary

    I think we only have 1 loop.

    I think Brian was saying that his new Roland efx unit would allow
    different effects in the stereo channels.  You might check into
    something like that.  If it does, it's the only one I've heard of that
    does that.
    
    Greg

    Anyone out there familiar with the Peavey SP2 cabs?  What features do
    they have?  What size and configuration of drivers?  How much power
    will they handle?
    
    Greg

    The SP2 is a two-way cab with a 15" Black Widow driver and a
    compression driver feeding a large horn.  There are a few versions, the
    original, the SP2a, the SP2Ti, etc. which represent driver
    improvements.  I *think* the rating is 200 watts RMS.  You can run full
    range with internal crossover or biamp them.  For real oomph, Peavey
    used to recommend stacking these on top of a 1-18" sub.
    
    Overall, an OK cab but a bit on the bulky side. They can be mounted on
    stands, but just barely.  Personally, I like the sound of the competing
    EV cabs  (SH-1502?) better but the Peaveys are rugged and usually
    available ultra-cheap used.  
    
    							Brian

>> They can be mounted on stands, but just barely....
    
    if you have the stands extended above about 5', DON'T bump into them!

>    but the Peaveys are rugged and usually available ultra-cheap used.
    
    Hense my interest...
    
    Thanks!!!
    
    Greg

     The SP-2Ti is a two-way vented 8 ohm enclosure. It has a 15" Black Widow
     spkr, a 22T 1" throat driver w/Titanium diaphragm. It's rated 300W cont-
     inuous, 600W program, 60Hz-17KHz, 101.5dB, measures 23.75"W x 31.875"H x
     17.125"D, weighs 93 lbs, has a built in stand adaptor, built-in 2-way
     passive crossover, patch capability for bi-amping.

     I've owned the SP-3. My choice now would be the SP-5Ti. It's 23 lbs
     lighter, cheaper, measures 19.5"W x 26.5"H x 13.875"D, with just about
     the same specs as it's big brothers.

     Neal

    
    	Don't know much about Peavey SP2's, but I've got a pair of 
    SP-1's that I've had for years. They still work! They're huge, 
    though... takes at least 2 strong guys to carry them (that equals
    out to about 4 skinny guitar players, I think).
    
    

    Thanks for the info, gents, but I messed around and missed the "deal". 
    No problem, I'll keep it in mind for the future.
    
    Greg

    RE: SP2s
    
    Anybody here in notesland have guestimates on the following:
    
    How many people ( or what size room, etc. ) will 2 SP2s driven by
    a Peavey '850' and a pair of 18" subwoofers driven by a Peavey '1300'
    cover?  The range I've heard so far is low-150 people, high-500 people.
    
    Also heard the opinion that this setup is inadequate for outdoor
    applications.
    
    Any opinions?  Thanks.
    
    Kent

    SP2's are quite notorious for snuffing their horn-drivers...  I've seen
    several go away...