Conference napalm::guitar

    I'd recommend an Alesis MidiverbII. They have all the effects you
    will probably ever need for PA, including Reverb, gated reverb,
    reverse reverb, flange, chorus, delays (upto 500ms), and some special
    effects. They also feature 16bit digital processing and about 16khz
    bandwidth. When they were first introduced they were well worth the $399
    pricetag that they carried. At the current selling price ($200-$250)
    they are a real steal. 
    
    Just my opinion. 
    Check em out.
    
    Mark
                                                            
    

    I'd definitely go with the SPX-90 - I'd probably get two of them.
    
    The SPX-90 does a half dozen things that are important in this
    application that the MIDIverb (which is really just a reverb/delay)
    and similar devices don't do including:
    
    	o Harmonization (slight detuning really fleshes out vocals
    	o Compression (no fading vocals, lost syllables etc.)
    	o Limiting (no exploding P's,  less sizzling S's).
    
    I should explicitly state, that the SPX-90 does do reverb/delay/etc
    as well.
    
    What's more is that you can use these guys in your home recording
    projects as well for a variety of purposes.
    
    Now, the general purpose SPX-90 does *NOT* sound as good as a lot
    of the dedicated units, but you'd never be able to hear the difference
    going thru a PA.  (I.E., the advantages of dedicated units occur
    mostly in recording).
    
    I can't remember the last time I saw a reasonably endowed
    band that didn't have an SPX-90.
    
    	db

    We use a Roland DEP-5 multi-effects processor... does lotsa neat
    stuff like multi-repeats, etc....
    
    Edd

    I'd go with a DEP-5 also, for vocals what else do you use than
    chorus/reverb/delay??  ANyway, I don't like the specs on the SPX-90,
    but that's just me. 
    
    Buck

    
    re .2 .3, How about including average selling prices for SPX90's
    and DEP5's.
    
    Dave is right in that a MidiverbII does not include compression/
    limiting. For this I would recommend getting a separate compressor/
    limiter like the DBX 163X. For about $350, you could buy a MidiverbII
    and a DBX 163X. I believe an SPX90 or DEP5 will cost a lot more
    than $350.
    
    You've got to look at price/performance.
    
    Mark

    Unless you have a soundman (or woman), keep in mind that the
    thing will be kept on the same 3 or 4 settings all night. Even
    if you did have a soundperson, they are probably not going to
    exploit the full functionality of the better units (speaking
    from experience..you're usually busy with other things when
    mixing).  So my vote is for the least expensive box that does
    the job. The Midiverb gets my vote...or maybe a used SPX90
    (which has outstanding chorus/flange effects). 
    
    $700 for an effect in a PA system that probably cost them $1500
    is overkill (I don't think I would have spent that much, and my
    system cost about $10,000!) (But then, we still used Roland Space
    Echo's in those days!!!)
    
    Pat 
    

     A midiverb will cost you just over $200 right now, and a micro
    series limiter/compressor is in the ballpark of $125 which means
    if you've got $700 to buy a SPX-90 with you can also scrap that
    idea get he MV and limiter and an enhancer and a micro verb etc...
    
    I'd vote for a dedicated unit for each function as the SPX does
    not do everything at once...
    
    and besides the midiverb and micro limiter/micro enhancer combo
    is a real screamer!
    
    dbii

    RE: the DBX 163???
    
    Isn't that a stereo compressor?  Why would I need a stereo compressor
    with a mono pa?  Maybe separate compression for the mains and monitors???
          
    Talk to me.
          
    D.

    re: .9
    
    right, separate compression for mains and monitors.  DBX makes a
    stereo compressor/noise gate which is the gnads!  I forget the model
    name but its a great compressor and the gating function really helps
    eliminate feedback from the monitors (and mains) and really cleans
    things up (once you get used to the unit, its a tad tricky at first).
    
    Buck

    I don't understand DBX????
    
    Why is the 160 DBX (MONO) so much more expensive than the 163 DBX??
    I think the 160 is around $360 and the price as stated in an earlier
    note was about two hundred less.
    
    Have I got this wrong?
    
    D.

    A dbx 163X is a 1/2 rack mono unit. It features balanced and unbalanced
    ins and outs. You could get 2 of these, rack them together, and
    have the option of using them separately, or strap them (with a
    short stereo cable) and use them as a stereo pair. They have one
    slider for adjusting the attack, and compression ratio. Perhaps
    the 163X is not the perfect compressor for your needs, but DBX
    makes a whole line of compressor/limiters with very reasonable
    prices.
    
    They also make 263X noise gates, and 363X de-essers. They also just
    introduced a 563X noise reduction unit which is also a 1/2 rack.
    If you have a 163X and 563X, you can strap them together and use
    them as a pair of 163X's or as a pair of 563x's, depending on which
    unit is slave and which is master. These units are also very useful for
    recording purposes. You could use them as compressors when laying down
    tracks, and use them as noise reduction when mixing down. For roughly
    $125/each, these units are great investments. I have a 163X and 563X 
    on the list I am sending to Santa Claus.
    
    Most GB bands are in business to make money. Buying top-of-the-line
    processors is usually not the most cost-effective way to go.
    I am sure the high end processors like the SPX90 or DEP5 have
    some unique features that make them worth the price (to some people),
    but if you are as concerned about budget as I am, I think you will
    find the MidiverbII is the best buy. If you are going to approach it
    with a money-no-object attitude, then why not look at Lexicon
    processors, or at the T.C. Electronics Dynamic Digital Delay, etc.
    
    Let me put it this way. I have a midiverbII which I like so much
    that I am considering buying another one, and at the present price
    it is pretty hard to resist. You want layered effects, buy 2 MVII's
    or even 3. This would give you the option of layering sounds on
    one instrument, or using 3 differant effects for 3 differant 
    instruments. Much greater flexibility !!!
    
    Just my humble opinion, again.
    
    Mark
    
    
                               
    

    
    Re: .11
    
    Your dbx 160 is a considerably more complex piece of gear than a
    163.  The 163 basically presets everything except the threshold and
    the output level.  Less controls means less dough.

    
    	I have a small PA with sound desk for my band & a digital echo
    of some description that was donated to the band gear kitty.
    I always put the echo on the fx send/return circuit on the desk.
    In the studio I always "compand" & "gate" the individual tracks
    at the record stage, I just find it gives me an easier time in the
    mix.  
    
    	In a live situation is it good practice to put the
    compression/limiter type stuff on the output of the desk & then to
    the power amp?  Seems pointless to put them in the send/return 
    circuit as they get partially bypassed.  I've never used gates or 
    compressor/limiters live but thinking about it it could solve a few 
    problems (& maybe create a few).  How do you set up?

    re:.14
    
    Well I don't actually own any p.a. gear right now - that's one of
    the reasons for this note.  My desire is to put together a p.a.
    for a live situation as described in the base note.  Above all else
    (for me) it has to be simple to connect and operate.  I am looking
    to piece together good quality equipment in such a manner that will
    allow my band to arrive at a gig and have the p.a. gear set up in
    a matter of minutes - connected, tested, and ready for gigging.
    
    Here's what I've discovered as "good things to do" so far.  Maybe
    you all could share your thoughts on this information too?

    - The P.A. should be MONO.

    - Power Amp:  Always buy more than you need.  I'm leaning towards
    the QSC 1500.
    (Question: Should you have a separate power amp for the monitors?)
                 
    - Main Speakers: Assume that you're going to mic the whole band.
                     Buy accordingly.
    		     Compression driven speakers are preferrable for
                     punchy/kick sound.
    (I like the JBL 762's)

    - The Mixing Board:  Keep it simple - ie. no on board effects.
                         12 channel minimum to 16 channel max.
                         Should have ability to send at least three
    			effects to each channel with individual channel
    			mixing.  Same for monitors.  All monitors and
    			and all channels have their own sound effects.
			Should have on board per channel EQ - low -
    			mid - hi at least.
    (I like the Yamaha mixers. I think it's the "MC" series)		

    - The Power Amp(s) and Effects should be racked separately.
    
    - A Compressor should be a part of any P.A. for protection of speakers.
    (DBX seems to be highly recommended.)
        
    - A Graphic EQ should be a part of any P.A. 
    (Question: How many bands? - Haven't decided on a brand yet.)
    
    - Voice Effects - of course.
    (Haven't decided on this one either - but lots of good input here.)

    This is most likely incomplete and, again, would surely like input.
    
    
    Thanx .... Dan        

    re: MONO
    
    Most definitely! A stereo mix will assure you that the mix is different
    all over the hall. Not good...
    
    re: power amps
    
    This could turn into a religious argument as some people will swear
    by amps that others swear at. The Peavey CS800 and CS400 are rugged,
    cost effective amps. You've heard them and commented favorably I
    believe...                    
    
    Edd

    Peavey CS1200 is a great low end amp aslo

    I would also check out Carver magnetic field amps. They pack gobs
    of power into feather weight packages. For instance the PM1.5 packs
    450 watts/side (rated into 4 ohms) into a 2 space 10# package.
    
    Another company worth looking into is Carvin. They are selling
    the new FET900 power amps for $599. They also offer very good
    mixing boards for reasonable prices. All the reports on Carvin
    that I have seen have been positive, it's rugged stuff.
    
    Before you buy a mixing board, check out Soundcraft, Peavey,
    Ramsa. I am not too familiar with Yamaha's offerings, but they
    are not known for the most competitive prices for PA gear. 
    I wouldn't limit yourself to 16 channels. If you can
    afford more channels, I wouldn't hesitate to go for 24 or even
    32 channels. When you start micing drums, you eat up a lot of
    channels quick. Also, a lot of guitarists, bass players, keyboard
    players, etc. are using preamps and going direct into the PA 
    these days. 
    
    Mark

    I think you may be a tad disappointed in looking for a "set up in
    minutes" P.A.. Even a non- biamped or triamped system will consist
    of...
    
                   Position Bins
                   Wire to amp
                   Set up board and plug in snake
                   plug in fx rack
                   set up monitors and wire them
                   run snake
                   plug in mics                         
                   connect everthing
                   ...and who knows what else.          
    
    ...add bi-amping or tri-amping and it's gonna take longer. And this
    is all BEFORE sound check.
    
    Plan on an hour AT LEAST to set up even a modest P.A.
    
    Edd
    

    I'd like to put in my 2c regarding Dan's reply about what is needed
    for a good system.
    
    Power Amps - I would definately get 2 or more amps for monitors
    and mains. I would get 2 amps with the same high power rating. If
    you ever have a mishap with one amp, you can resort to using the
    other for monitors and mains to get you through the gig.
    
    Speakers - While biamping may be the ultamate, there are many very
    good self contained units like the JBL cabs mentioned. Since you
    are looking for simplicity and quick setup, I would stick with a
    single cab. In a GB band, there are always several hands to help
    move the gear, so size and weight are not necessarily drop-dead
    issues. As far as compression driven horns, they are primarily used
    because of their high efficiency. Using 10" speakers for mid range
    can be sweeter than using compression driven horns, but you sacrifice
    the efficiency, and the ability to throw the sound as far. An example
    would be the Eastern Acoustic Works speakers, which use 10" drivers
    for mid. They sound real smooth, and sweet, but do not throw the
    sound as far and as loud as horns. Always be sure to place the
    speakers on a table or stands to keep them up over the audiences'
    heads, otherwise the high's will be blocked.
     
    Biamping - This requires an active crossover network to split the
    line level signal before it hits the amps. It requires that you
    use more amps or use one channel of the amp for bass, and one for
    highs. In a Triamped system, you need 3 amps or channels. You could
    accomplish this by using one amp for bass and mid, the other for
    highs, and monitors. Using passive crossovers (in a non-biamped
    system) is not as efficient as using active crossovers, as some
    of the amplifier power is converted into heat in the crossover,
    but it does make life simpler as far as cost, and setup.
    
    Mixing boards - enough has been said about mixers and I can't add
    much. You might want to look for a board with phantom power for
    driving condensor mics, but this is up to you. Most people use
    dynamic mics for live sound rienforcement.
    
    Racks - One thing to keep in mind when building/buying racks.
    Make sure the rack is at least 18" from front rail to back rail.
    Make sure the rack has rails on both front and back, as you might
    want to mount the power amps to both the front and back rails, and
    you might want to mount stuff like power strips, etc. to the rear
    rail. Some of the power amps, and others units are very deep. 
                                  
    In my mind all of the equipment out there fits into 2 main groups.
    There are the cheap units not suitable for pro applications (these
    include both the no-frills models and the models with lots of
    bells and whistles), and then there are pro units (this includes
    bare bones units, and top-o-the-line units with lots of features).
    Considering the fact that you are looking for quick easy setups,
    I would stick with the more bare bones pro units. This is the reason
    I suggest you check out the DBX 163X compressor. These units have
    very few features, but they sound great, and most improtant, they
    are easy to use. If you are looking for quick setups, you don't
    want to mess with a compressor that has separate controls for
    attack, decay, compression, input level, output level, etc. Often
    times when moving gear, knobs get turned and the unit arrives at
    the gig needing to be tweaked. The less knobs to have to reset,
    the easier your job as soundman will be. This is another reason
    why I advocate the Alesis MidiverbII. This unit has 99 preset sound
    effects. You simply punch in the patch number you want to use, set
    the input and output levels, set the mix to the middle, and away
    you go. Units with a great deal of flexibility are fine when you
    have a great deal of time to play with them.
    
    Mark Jacques                                        
                
    

    If you wanna minimize your setup, debug (don't forget that step) and
    breakdown time, it almost goes without saying that you want all
    your stuff in racks.
    
    What you wanna do is snake all the cables going to and from the
    board to the effects rack together and put labels on them.  After
    each gig, you just unplug them from the board and stuff them into
    the back of the rack.
    
    Doing this makes the setup less tangled, and having the labels makes
    setting up the system significantly less error prone.
    
    	db

    A great, inexpensive, versitile (4 user storable/changeable
    program modes, real clean) rack mount effect...
    
    Roland SDE 1000.  Picked mine up for about 300 dollars.  Best
    300 dollars ever spent for effects in my book...
    
    

	Yeah, MONO. It was determined in th 70's that no one listens
to things like "soundstage" anyway. Especially at a wedding...

	Joe Jas
< Note 966.22 by PELKEY::PELKEY "Head for the Mountains, Bush is pres !" >
                    -< Rolade SDE1000, just the ticket... >-

    A great, inexpensive, versitile (4 user storable/changeable
    program modes, real clean) rack mount effect...
    
    Roland SDE 1000.  Picked mine up for about 300 dollars.  Best
    300 dollars ever spent for effects in my book...