Conference napalm::guitar

   
   What a good question!  I had a big problem applying modes and such
   for along time.  About a year ago I started taking guitar lessons
   from a great teacher who I feel very lucky to have found. 

   To apply them, I think of the modifications to the major scale.
   I am trying not to play only patterns, but instead to know what
   note I am playing at all times and how it fits into the chord 
   over which I am playing.

   I am beginning to be able to hear the sound of the mode in my head.
   I have a feeling that this may take a while.  I have a tuning fork
   that I carry aroung with me sometimes.  It has really helped to
   develop my ear.  That, in turn, helps me recognize the note that I
   am hearing in my head which I am ultimately trying to get out of
   the guitar. 
   
   What really helped in my applications of modes was learning the 
   fingerboard better, learning to play in all the keys, learning
   the notes in all the keys, and learning some rules of harmony.

  frank

    
    	I use a few methods.
    
    	For mixolydian (blues) scales, say it's a G7...  I either
    	play a Gmaj scale and think "flat 7", or play a Cmaj scale
    	over it, or a Dmin scale, etc.. or think of the 3 5 7 shape in
    	different orders.
    
    	For minor scales, say it's an Amin... if it feels like it
    	would go to a Dmaj then it's the Dorian mode so I'll think
    	Gmaj or the "normal" (Dorian) Amin, or D7...  If the Amin
    	goes to a Dmin, then I'll think Cmaj riffs (that sus4 note
    	in Cmaj is the difference...  If it's Latin (phrygian), I'll
    	pretend I'm Al DiMeola... seriously, in Amin I'd think of
    	Fmaj scales and Gmin "normal" Dorian, or C7...
    
    	The easiest way for me to "hear" the modes is to tape 
    	the chords to do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti, do.  Then just
    	play the do (Ionian) major scale over them.
    
        do     re    mi    fa    so    la    ti     do
        C      Dmin  Emin  F     G7    Amin  Bo7    C
    
    	Tape yourself playing just Cmaj and play the normal Cmaj
    	scale.  Don't change chords... just Cmaj.
    
    	Then just Dmin chords... 5 minutes of Dmin chords.  Play
    	the Cmaj scale.  Resolve on the 3 motes of the Dmin (D F A).
    
    	Then Emin chords...  play the Cmaj scale and resolve to the
    	3 notes of Emin (E G B)
    
    	Then F chords... play the Cmaj scale and resolve to the 3
    	notes of F (F A C)
    
    	Then G7 chords... play the Cmaj scale and resolve to the 4
    	notes of G7 (G B D F)  especially the F...
    
    	Then Amin chords... play the Cmaj scale and resolve to the 3
    	notes of Amin (A C E)
    
    	Then Bo7 chords... play the Cmaj scale and resolve to the 4
    	notes of the Bo7 (B F D Ab)
    
    	This is how I first "heard" the modes.

	OK. So we've inherited this musical system where in a tempered
	chromatic scale of 12 tones we create 7 tone scales. By necesity
	these scales contain 5 whole tone intervals and 2 half tone
	intervals. We can represent the placement of the half tones within
	the scale by using 1 digit for each in a modulo 7 number system.
	This gives us numbers representing the 7 ecclesiastical modes:

	Mode		Pattern			Mod7 representation
	-----------------------------------------------------------
	Ionian		(1,1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2)		26	(maj)
	Dorian		(1,1/2,1,1,1,1/2,1)		15	(min)
	Phrygian	(1/2,1,1,1,1/2,1,1)		04	(min)
	Lydian		(1,1,1,1/2,1,1,1/2)		36	(maj)
	Mixolydian	(1,1,1/2,1,1,1/2,1)		25	(maj)
	Aolean		(1,1/2,1,1,1/2,1,1)		14	(min)
	Locrian		(1/2,1,1,1/2,1,1,1)		03	(dim)

	And we can locate the modes in a chart of all 2 digits pairs
	(49 of them). Because of the symmetry of the representation,
	only those pairs above the diagonal are shown.

		01	02	03*	04*	05	06
			12	13	14*	15*	16
				23	24	25*	26*
					34	35	36*
						45	46
							56

	Common modes are marked with (*).

	Now for the question: Are there known studies in the harmonic
	systems suggested by the modes not marked in the chart?

	

    I have some questions on modal playing:
    
    
    1. I know that a mode is relating a scale to a chord because 
    of it's position in the harmonized major scale.
    eg. Playing in the key of C, you are playing Dm,G7,Cmaj7
    you can use the dorian mode to improvise,which means you
    play a c scale running from d to d.
    So does this mean when you are soloing modally, that you
    change scale for every chord.
    
    2.  If this is the case how do you relate what you are
    hearing in your head to the fretboard.
    
    3. The dorian mode I mentioned above works well with that
    jazz II,V,I progression, do any of the other modes relate
    that well to other common progressions eg I,II,IV,V
    4.What determines the tonal centre of a tune, I read some 
    where that where ever you see a IV,V chord together that
    tells you. For example you see f then g so the tonal centre
    is C.  Do you shift this during your  modal playing.
    
    Any advise would be appreciated
    
    P.K.
     
     

    re -1:
    
    The tonal center is mostly a psychological phenomenon. The are clues in
    the music that point towards tonal centers. For example, your
    progression of I, II, IV, V could just as easily ( and more likely
    to ) be IV, V, VII, I. There are zillions of books written on this,
    but most of them confirm common sense. I have found that very few
    modern songs begin on the tonic. Those that do repeat it. A good
    excersize to determine where a tonic is is to come up with a feasible
    ending ( or cadence ). That will most likely be your tonic. It general,
    Progressions that lead to a tonic are up a 2nd, down a 3rd, or up a
    4th. Your tonic can be preceeded by a Vs and VIIs ( secondary
    dominants ), with each chord being preceeded by its own V or VII
    without introducing modulation ( changing keys ).
    
    Good luck,
    							John.

>    1. I know that a mode is relating a scale to a chord because 
>    of it's position in the harmonized major scale.
>    eg. Playing in the key of C, you are playing Dm,G7,Cmaj7
>    you can use the dorian mode to improvise,which means you
>    play a c scale running from d to d.
>    So does this mean when you are soloing modally, that you
>    change scale for every chord.

Well, you're actually playing the same scale.  D-dorian has the same notes as
C-major.  If you're really playing modally - using only notes and chords from
the chosen mode - then you have the same set of notes to use regardless of the
current chord.  

Improvisation can get more interesting if you judiciously add notes from 
outside the mode.

Bob

    About adding notes outside the mode:
    
    Got to be careful here, most excursions outside a mode need to be
    resolved in a different key. While there are no hard and fast rules,
    here are some guidelines:
    
    1) Keep the emphasis off the chromatic note, use it only to resolve to
    a more dominant note, like a 1, 3, or a 5.
    
    2) Keep the interval small. Don't jump around alot. The most common
    interval to use is 2.
    
    3) Keep the chromatics in the direction of resolution. For example, if
    you're playing up to a cadence, you can try chromatic sharps.
    
    							John.

    I hereby dub our favorite "Bill the Cat" (STAR::SALKEWICZ) from now on
    to be referred to as "Lydian Bill"
    
    
    He insistantly played #4's this eve while in the key of C Major...NO
    excuse!!  Something about that 3rd beat of that 3rd measure throwing
    him for a loop!
    
    8^)
    TheOtherBill

    AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRFGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!
    
    
    	I've been Buckleyed,.,..
    
    	I don't knwo what the problem is,.. everybody knows that
    the C major scale is spelled C D E F# G... right?
    
    	:)
    
    	I Hate it when this happens,,..
    
    	But the funny thing to me really is that I've always referred to
    Lydian as Buckley mode anyway... :-)
    
    	Now he's referring to me as Catlydian.
    
    	Things that make you go Huh?
    
    							/Bill_the_cat
    

    I'll never learn....I STILL think that "Can't ya see" and ALL those
    OTHER D,C,G, or A,G,D tunes from the southern rock scene are in the
    "key" of the first chord listed (D and A, respectively) and are
    considered I VII IV progressions......the leads are "usually" a major
    pentationic in the position of the first chord, and minor pentatonics
    work great in those positions as well...
    
    Steve (who opened up a 20 reply fiasco last time)
    
    8^)

    ruh-roh
    
    Here we go agaon,...
    
    FWIW,. my old bass player swares that Dear Mr. Fantasy (G-F-C-G) is
    a I, flat VII, IV progression,... and like Steve says,.. I had
    a lot of fun playing G pent. minor and  G blues kinds of leads over
    it...
    
    Then I listened to Buck,... and then I prayed to the mixo Gods,.. and
    now I would play G mixo stuff,.. C major related...
    
    So that leaves me firmly on the fence :-)
    
    						/Bill_no_help_at_all
    

    >I'll never learn....I STILL think that "Can't ya see" and ALL those
    >OTHER D,C,G, or A,G,D tunes from the southern rock scene are in the
    >"key" of the first chord listed (D and A, respectively)
    
    
    NOT!	;')
                

    CatLydian laments:
    
    >FWIW,. my old bass player swares that Dear Mr. Fantasy (G-F-C-G) is
    >a I, flat VII, IV progression,... and like Steve says,.. I had
    >a lot of fun playing G pent. minor and  G blues kinds of leads over
    >it...
    >
    >Then I listened to Buck,... and then I prayed to the mixo Gods,.. and
    >now I would play G mixo stuff,.. C major related...
    
    It's really apples and oranges, but to me, you need the addl. anaylsis
    if you're gonna do anything outside of the G PentaBlues stuff.  Like
    the full Mixolydian mode, which as Wayne Campbell would say, is 
    EXCELLENT!  What about chromatic approach notes?  Guide tone lines?
    Can't get em from da blues scale.

    re: last two.....
    
    Darn, only two replies....and no "point/counterpoint" insult/slams of
    death.....I just can't start a brew-ha like I used to.....
    
    BTW, I'm gonna bring my Les Paul to the homeland during the last week 
    of DECworld, maybe Buck can teach this old dog sumthin' about this mixo
    stuff.....
    
    Steve

    Actually, I should say that no one should just play ONE thing...
    Cat will tell ya I strong suggest MIXING it up...Do blues and
    mixo and arpeggios with chrostic approach notes and polyphonic
    lines and all sorts of neat stuff...don't limit yourself, your
    solo, or your creativity...

    
>    Do blues and
>    mixo and arpeggios with chrostic approach notes and polyphonic
>    line
    
    uh, ok, I'll do that next time...what you just said, that stuff...yeah.
    
    Steve (who's idea of mixing is major pent, minor pent, octave changes,
    and some weird stuff I learned by copying by ear and don't know the
    name of, and also just has fun playing what he knows 'cause he doesn't
    have time to really practice and learn new stuff, 'cause he has a
    family and plays golf, and restores vintage motorcycles, and competes
    on off road motorcycles, and spends time with his wife and kids, and
    goes camping, etc...) 

	and Steve also plays kick-ass guitar w/o the fancy stuff!  

    RE -2
    
    Vintage motorcycles??  Get me an indian, and I'll show you ALL my
    secrets!  ]8^)

    >	and Steve also plays kick-ass guitar w/o the fancy stuff!  
    
    Why, thank you, Pat....made MY day!
    
    :^)
    
    Stevo

I second what Pat says.

Buck - He won't do an Indian (unless he finds one), but he might find ya
a vintage DT1 or old Trials bike (How about a  '76 Bultaco Sherpa T ??  :).

jc (who also does the dirt bike thing - big-buck hobby number 2!)

PS - Bucks Personal name is a line from a most triumphant song by Ugly 
     Kid Joe...  Man that song is a BLAST to play !!!!!!!!!!!

    >(How about a  '76 Bultaco Sherpa T ??  :).

    I'll TAKE it!!

>PS - Bucks Personal name is a line from a most triumphant song by Ugly 
>     Kid Joe...  Man that song is a BLAST to play !!!!!!!!!!!
    
    Agreed!

    RE: Sherpa....Jes finished a '74 Yamaha TY250 Trials...gonna ride the Mid 
    Atlantic Vintage Trials series.....need practice!
    
    RE: Buck's personal...oh, I thought you were in some kinda 'dark' mood
    or sumthin....
    
    RE: Coop....big buck hobby indeed!... and thanks to you too for yer
    compliment...yer not too shabby yerself, bud, and the Blair unit is the
    fastest student I EVER taught...very dedicated!
    
    Steve(who can't believe we're talkin' dirt bikes in THIS conference
    TOO!...guess we'd better take it elswhere...)

    Ok Ok Ok,
    	Let me see if I got this right.
    
    I'm playing blues in E .... E   A    B
    
    Now I would solo using the E blues scale (minor pent? I think)
    
    Now to do this mixo stuff on the E (I) chord I would play notes 
    from the A major scale...A(IV) chord notes from the E major scale
    and for the B(V) chord notes from the F major scale  IS that it???
    
    Assuming that what I just said is okay.........that is a fair amount
    of mind gymnastics for me as when I am in blues scale mode (idiotlyian
    mode) I just think of one scale not three cross related to another
    three.
    
    Any good patterns to shift over the chords for the mixo mode so I can 
    practice hearing this without spending 5 mins for each chord change.
    
    
    P.K.

	the E minor pent/blues scale that I'd use over E-A-B (I-IV-V)

	is E-G-A-Bb-B-D-E

	The Mixolidian scale to solo over this is rooted on V -
	mixo is always rooted on V in a major key - is:

	B-C#-D#-E-F#-G#-A-B

	Give it a try. Put the chord changes on tape and wail away!

    Well, if the domanance is real heavy, like I7-IV7-V7, I'll play
    
    E Mixo - E F# G# A B  C# D E
    A Mixo - A B  C# D D  F# G A
    B Mixo - B C# D# E F# G# A B
    
    Note the common tones between modes.
    
    
    Also, try adding the natural 6th to the blues scale...
    
    E-G-A-Bb-B-C#-D-E
               **

    you know,.. the debates and comments about knowing the modes and stuf
    just makes me want to add this thought,...
    
    When I first started learning this stuff from Buck, I realized that I
    had learned it all bass ackwards, and that the first thing I had to
    do was "throw out" or "forget" everything I had learned on my own.
    So I did,.. and I started listening to Buck and working my feeble mind
    like real hard into the wee hours to understand how it all fit
    together. Now its several months later and what Buck says makes total
    sense to me now. But the real interesting and encouraging part is that
    once I understood the proper terminology for the stuff, I realized
    that all the stuff I threw out was originally OK.... I just had a lot
    of the wrong names for it.
    
    Some of you who are afraid of theory might find like I did that
    actually you already know a sh*tload of theory,.. but not by the proper
    names.
    
    Just FYI or whatever. To me,. its just a matter of learning the right
    names for things. 
    
    								/Catlydian
    

    Yo Billy,
    
    I found something similar after I learned a little theory.  I was
    looking at an old notebook of ideas I'd written down years before, when
    I knew absolutely *nothing* about music (and very little about playing
    guitar even) and found that a lot of the ideas that I thought were cool
    enough to try and write down and save were actually modal-based rather
    then off a blues scale or pentatonic maj/min.  Amazing what listening
    to your ear rather then your rote knowledge will do for your music,
    'cause the only scale I knew back then was a blues scale (but I wasn't
    afraid to go outside it and experiement, I just didn't know what I was
    doing).
    
    Greg
           

    exactly Greg
    
    My point is that if you feel you have musical knowledge, but don't know
    theory, don't be afraid to learn some theory. It just gives you a
    consistent naming scheme for stuff and a lot of stuff you hear begins
    to be easily "figured out" because you recognize such and such as,. oh
    say,.. Dorian mode,.. or pentatonic major,.. or <insert any name for
    anything>. Learning theory will not take away from your ability to
    "play what you feel". 
    
    				/Catatonic,.. and"I aint 'fraid-a-no theory

    and to cap off this theory discussion...
    
    
    Ya know, when I solo or play in general, i ain't thinkin numbers or
    whatever...after a while, all this stuff just becomes subliminal!
    Like the jazz dude who said "learn theory, then forget it and play.
    But you can't just play"...that is really true.
    
    
    Buck, who sez learn it then forget it

	I couldn't have said it better. & I agree with Bill - learning
	theory does not remove the ability to play what you feel.

	I spend most of my time working on theory and technique because 
	really choice moments of inspired playing are so rare. So I see
	the work on theory and technique as a means of "preparing the
	vehicle".

    All those kind of dudes that avoid theory on the premise that it
    will somehow constrain or hinder them somehow are just making
    excuses IMHO.
    
    I certainly didn't become a strictly-scales player when I started
    studying the modes for example.
    
    The benefits of studying theory (I'll never claim that I've "learned
    theory") have been:
    
    	1) Being able to play over stuff that I previously couldn't
    	   by understanding what's happening harmonically.
    
    	   It expanded what my ear could comprehend - it did not
    	   contract it.
    
    	2) It gives me an additional compositional tool.
    
    	   I can hear an example of a particular thing, remember it,
    	   and while I'm writing and looking on how to make something
    	   sound a little different or whatever, I can draw on those
    	   things and apply them to the song.
    
    	   Sure, I can't quite do it in real-time always, but even
    	   just as an aid to writing, it's worthwhile.
    
    	3) It has expanded my musical vocabulary.
    
    	   I used to be constrained to playing only what my ear could
    	   come to understand on its own.  Now I can add things that
    	   my ear has come to understand via the help of my brain.

    RE .31
    
    I couldn't agree more. 
    
    Jim

    
>    All those kind of dudes that avoid theory on the premise that it
>    will somehow constrain or hinder them somehow are just making
>    excuses IMHO.
    
    Yeah, kinda like the biker that says he dropped his bike to "avoid an
    accident"...
    
    If you're in the environment, you gotta know what's goin' on!
    

    RE: Mixo scales....
    
    I tried the mixo scale that was shown a few replies back.......oh,
    I've been using those notes for years...I thought they were just kinda
    "spicing" up the major pentatonic leads....never knew they had a name!
    
    keep on larnin'!
    
    8^)
    
    Steve
    

    Thats what I meant when I said that people don't realize that they
    know and use a lot of theory already whne they play,.. they just don't
    know what to call it,... 
    
    Cool Steve,.. happy pickin'
    
    							/Bill
    

    RE: -1
    
    Bill,
    
    I was foolin around with that scale over a major pentatonic last night,
    and I started realizing (I think), that this sounds alot like what
    Dickie Betts, (or maybe it was MR. Allman) uses in alot of tunes....
    ?
    
    Steve (who didn't use the "flat root" much, but it sounds cool in the
    right place!)

    Well...
    	There I was last night playing away and after a couple of million 
    attempts to understand what modes were ....well .....I think it
    happened.
    
    	I was rehearsing Mustang Sally for the band and got bored and
    started to play little runs when I remember someone saying Flat 7th
    So I played the Bb major scale with a flattened 7th over the Bb or 
    I chord in the song and hey presto Mixo heaven .........please tell
    me if this is right....If it isn't it sounded cool anyway ...
    actually it sounded very BB King and not quite as harsh as the blues
    scale more mellow
    
    P.K. (who may just have cracked it for modal playing)

    >	I was rehearsing Mustang Sally for the band and got bored and
    >started to play little runs when I remember someone saying Flat 7th
    >So I played the Bb major scale with a flattened 7th over the Bb or 
    >I chord in the song and hey presto Mixo heaven .........please tell
    >me if this is right....If it isn't it sounded cool anyway ...
    
    Yup, dats it dood!!
    
    Buck, creating a legion of Mixo Monsters!

    re .36
    
    	Well A pentatonic major is:
    
    	A B C# E F# A
    
    	and A mixo is
    
    	A B C# D E F# G A
    
    	So when you switched to mixo,. you were basically adding the
    	(cool) flat 7 (G), and the natural 4 (D) to your pentatonic
    	major.
    
    	Dicky Betts, Duane Allmand,.. and hosts of others have used these
    scales seperately and together. I have always said that nobody gets 
    more mileage out of a pentatonic major scale than does Dicky. Its
    quite possible this mind of mode switch was used by either or both of
    them,.. but I can't think of any Almman examples,.. at least not
    without my axe in hand.
    
    	What song (if any) did it remind you of?
    
    
    re .38,.. mixo monsters,...
    
    	:-)
    
    re .37
    
    	so,. you wanna be dracula or frankenstein? :-)
    
    								/Bill
    
    	

          
        
    	One of Duanes that comes to mind....( actually it's a Donavan's tune)
    	is Mountain Jam.....dualing penta-mania...
    
    	.Ray.

    IMHO...EVERYTHING SAID HERE IS VALID!!  All you can learn is good. 
    NEver stop learning! Yes,  there is a danger of sounding like you're
    just playing modes/scales especially if you're learning this way as
    opposed to us older dudes who picjked up a guitar before "modal theory"
    became popular.  Other way was to approach improvisation out of the
    chord forms...something incidentally that John Coltrane took to
    incredible hights.  But now we have to talk of what the be-bop
    innovators did which was to build triads on top of triads and worry
    about what to call it later.  But in analysis,  you CAN pick out what
    "modes" are being played in their solos too.  This idea has been hinted
    at in associating a chord w/ a mode..ie: dmin7 as ii/DORIAN in key of C
    Major.
    
    Best thing...listen to the great jazz players eg: how Kenny Burrell
    plays a blues or even how BB plays "major/minor" "blues" scale in a
    riff...ie: e natural and e-flat in a C pattern.
    
    Barry