Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Which computer is best for you depends, more than anything else, on
    what you plan to use the computer for.  You should first decide what
    you want from your computer, then survey the market to determine which
    packages can satisfy your wants.  Having determined which packages
    are suitable, buy the one that best satisfies your wants, taking price
    into account.
    
    When surveying, don't buy futures.  If something you want can't be
    demonstrated _today_, in the store, pass on to the next package.
    
    Don't be surprised if nobody offers a package that does everything you
    want at a price you can afford.  If this happens you should either
    compromise on your list of wants, or wait.  In my experience, the
    market changes so much in 18 months that if it isn't here now it will
    be by then.
    
    Don't buy something that isn't what you want.  It will just make you
    unhappy.
        John Sauter

    The Amiga 500 or 2000 is a very competitive package for a
    windowed/menud system with near compatability with standard television
    (an amiga 500 requires at least an $80 interface for any quality at
    all) suitable for local cable access productions using titles (programs
    starting at $60), 3d rendering in 4096 colors (packages around $110),
    drawing ($100), animation of 3d objects or drawings.
    Also it is competitive in music with a MIDI interface ($70 minimum,
    software varying from $60 to $400 depending).  
    The prices a couple years ago were, 
    amiga 500  $550
    extra 1/2 Meg ram to make a megabyte $150
    monitor at least $300 and to about $700.
    extra disk drive $220 (probably high)
    printers (free-for-all) on parallel port 
    modem (free-for-all, about $80 for 1200, $120 for 2400 I guess).
    
    Games are effective on it as well, in part because of built-in
    animation functions in the custom chips (sprites and so on).
    
    Buying an Amiga to just do ordinary 
    word processing (although word processors
    menu nicely on the amiga), spreadsheets, and so on, may not be
    necessary.
    Tom

    	No, you do not HAVE to learn two operating systems. UNIX has
    the ability to run multiple sessions, a major boon for some people
    but a wasted capability for others. Not windows, where you can have
    more than one process "open" at a time, but multiple jobs running.
    The A2000 comes with numerous other features that are normally extra
    cost on an MS-DOS system, display- and interface-related features
    which are in the direction the industry seems to be going but which
    you may not feel are desireable, much less needed.
    	In addition to the earlier comments about finding the software
    you want to use and going with the system that runs that software,
    I'd suggest that you spend a number of hours working with each of
    the major contenders. Don't listen to word one about what you can
    upgrade to unless you try out the those upgrades and include them
    in the price comparison. Don't expect the "slightly cheaper" version
    to be work-alikes of the better-equiped show-room models. Think
    hard before you buy something that can't be expanded well beyond
    your current known need.
    	The A2000 does cost more than a 286/AT-class system but only
    because it can do more as-is. Have fun shopping around. I've heard
    people comment about both types of systems that they are money-pits
    waiting to be filled with expensive add-ons - and these people would
    do it all again.

    
    Beware of the temptation to succumb to the wealth of low cost,
    high-powered hardware in the PC Clone world.
    
    I routinely read Computer Shopper (sort of a JC WHitney for Clones) and
    I must say that I'm impressed at the super bargains on fast VGA/386
    systems etc.  However, when you start reading the articles closely, you
    begin to get a very bad feeling about all this MS-DOS stuff...
    
    Fore example, as it turns out, all these super VGA 800 x 600 and higher
    displays are NOT conforming to any particular standard.  In fact, VGA,
    as defined by IBM, is basically 640 x 480 w/16 colors and 320 x 200
    w/256 colors.  ANy higher resolutions are derived by clever third party
    designers who create a driver for all the major MS-DOS software
    packages, ie; Windows, AutoCAD, etc.
    
    If and when IBM does get around to defining the architecture of
    extended VGA (OK, the 8514 _is_ a standard, but it's being ignored by
    everyone), you may be left holding the bag with a non-standard card. 
    Not that it's a tremendous expense, but I'm trying to illustrate the
    lack of standards in the PC world.
    
    ALso, you have to play the game of "Lessee, I need to load the LogiTech
    mouse driver for this program, no wait, it's the Microsoft driver, or
    was it the Genius driver, no, that was for DesqView, not Windows..."
    
    The Clone world has become so fragmented and gone off in so many
    different directions that there is simply NO unified software standard
    other than plain old DOS, which everyone abhors anyway.  No thanks.
    
    My opinion, check out a Macintosh if you're totally computer
    illiterate; it's absolutely intuitive to use.  The Amiga is a little
    more challenging but more enjoyable once mastered.
    
    Ed.
    
    

Re: .0

It sounds like from your note that you suspect that AmigaDOS is some
variant of MS/DOS.  It isn't.  If you buy an Amiga, you only have to
learn one operating system: AmigaDOS.  Someday (soon?  Next Year?)
you will be able to run UNIX on an 68020 or 68030 Amiga, if you want
to, but only if you want to.

Buy an Amiga, don't buy an IBM clone.  Almost anything the clone does,
the Amiga can do as well.  However, if you get an Amiga, you get
windows and the ability to run multiple programs simultaneously right
out of the box.  To do this on a clone, you need to buy another
operating system or operating system enhancer: an expensive add on
that doesn't really perform all that well.

    I know a few pople at work that went the clone route. Now in hindsight
    if they had to do it again they would buy Amiga.One person has been
    showing an increasing interest in digitized sounds,and shakes his
    head in wonder at what I can do with a 120.00 program.In order for
    him to obtain only a fraction of the capability he has to spend
    more than a Amiga 500 cost. We all have humble ideas when purchasing
    a computer for home,ie only want to do school reports.Then when
    we get it,all of a sudden the light goes on and wow the whole family
    is sharing an adventure.The kids are learning,the wife is writing,
    the husband may find he likes desk top publishing.Always look to
    the future possabilities.Of course with some systems this is limited.
    I can only say the amiga fits a home enviornment better than most
    at a reasonable cost.However you are the one that has to live with
    your choice.Look at all the systems,try them out,compare price then
    but the AMIGA.No honestly if your needs are modest now the amiga will
    meet them,as will the other systems available.FWIW I would by a
    MAC before a clone if I could not own an amiga
    							bill

     My   $.02 worth.


         If you are currently PC illiterate, and desire to stay that way.
     If you only have a desire to do (as you say) no fancy stuff.
    
     Then as recommended,  define your needs, define potential growth paths
     within those needs, then shop around and have applications that address
     those needs demonstrated to you.

     If you want low bucks, easy/local access to a face to face person to 
     talk to, simple operating shell,, try the Radio Shack / Tandy packages,
     with Desk-Mate. Don't look to be impressed, but it will do most of what
     a home work horse needs to do.  Plus; (it's _best_ feature) it has
     support in almost every town in America. They have a 286 with 640k, and
     a 20 meg hard drive, with a color monitor and DESK-MATE  on sale for
     $1600 now. (it's a good/safe starter)
     
     Forget games!  Everybody does them, and most everybody does the same
     ones) The Amiga just does them with sound (the games that have it); 
     and if you're a silent movie buff,, you just might like your games 
     that way, (silent and boring).
        
   
         I bought an Amiga because I could not define my needs; I was looking
     for sound and color, I couldn't spend more than $1500 (that was with 
     the majority of the software I will use for a few years.)  I wanted
     an intuition based system (icons like the Mac). I didn't have a small
     home business that dictated I use Lotus 123.   ;^)

         To reword that last paragraph.  I bought an Amiga because although
     I had no idea what I wanted, I wanted a system that could take me anywhere
     I could possibly end up, (be that in music, art, desk-top-publishing, 
     video, or mulit-media) and I wanted it to do the same for my grade school
     kids at the same time. I wanted my ANTI-COMPUTER wife to like computers, 
     and I still have hopes of turning the TV into just another of the options
     on the real home entertainment system (the AMIGA). All this for  under 
     $1500 bucks for the platform for all of the above mentioned things.

          Also as Ed mentioned; After spending 3 months trying to research
     MS-DOS clones, the lack of standards, the multitude of options, in
     both hardware and software that weren't compatible with each other, I
     was so confused,,, You _HAVE_ to become an MS-DOS expert just to purchase
     the MS-DOS package that's right for you, and that's if you know what you
     need the package for. Try to project if this configuration will help you 
     with what you might want to be doing with it two years from now,,,,
     IMPOSSIBLE!!!

                                          *** May God Bless ***
                                              John Chicoine

    
    Buy as cheap as you can get away with.  For a first computer, avoid
    that $3000 system that the store salesman "just knows" is right for
    you :-)
    
    That way the learning what you need isn't too an expensive a lesson.
    If you have any children drag them down to see the computers too.
    It helps to distract the salesmen :-)
    
    Actually, I do see parents with small children trying out software
    at the Memory Location, in Wellesley Mass.  Kind of suprised me
    the first time, haven't seen the same thing in pc clone stores.
    But then again, after I got my Amiga, I haven't had much reason
    to wander into pc clone stores.
    
    I work on a pc clone in the office, I agree with Ed's comments on
    "standards" in the ibmpc market.  There are lots to choose from.
    The big advantage/disadvantage for the amiga is that there are
    fewer standards.  Take a look at ibmpc software, read the descriptions
    of what pc clone configurations it will run on.
    
    re: fancy stuff
    The market is moving to that, how else can they convince current
    computer owners that they need to buy new hardware.  If the base
    level system already supports the fancy stuff, that means you will
    see more applications that take advantage of it in a compatible way
    instead of inventing yet another standard just for each application.
    
    I don't know if you included the Amiga's multitasking in that fancy 
    stuff.  It's a great "nice to have" for free, since it eliminates
    the need for DOS style TSRs, to allow you to run multiple programs
    at the same time.
    
    -Dave
    -Dave

    Thank you all for your replies.  (Thank you also for overlooking
    my ignorance of operating systems!)
    
    I recently bought an issue of the Computer Shopper and was temporarily
    dazzled by the lower prices advertised.  (I was looking at a 386SX
    for around $2100).  Interestingly, there was an article on the
    operating systems for IBM and clones, and the author wasn't too 
    impressed with *anything* that was available.  Seemed to just
    highlight everything you are all saying.  Although they are now
    advertising a front end to MS-DOS called DOS Partner which is 
    suppose to make MS-DOS easier to live with.
    
    I'm still a little undecided though and will probably still look
    a little more until I'm positive I don't want a IBM clone.  (I know
    deep down I really want the Amiga anyway.  Have for a year now, 
    although I'm just now really getting serious about it.  Gee, I made 
    up my mind about my car quicker than this!!!)
    
    I know that I have to run some IBM compatible software (I'm a knitter
    and would like to use the computer for my designs.)  I would also
    like to get a DTP package, word processor, a spreadsheet and/or home
    financial package and of course a paint program.

    Thanks again for your helpful (and sometimes humorous) replies.  If you
    have anything else to share, local buy over mail order (especially
    for a novice), etc. etc, I'm open to suggestions.

    
    BG

You might check the Fish lists for software - there are a variety things
for weavers and/or knitters. Since I don't do either, I haven't looked
into them, but they could alleviate your need for IBM compatable software.

The rest of the things you mention exist, just not in the profusion they
do in the MS-DOS world.

	<mike

    
    If you really need to run some basic MS-DOS applications, you can buy a
    hardware add-in board for the 2000/2500/3000 Amiga models.  This board
    comes in various incarnations; a basic 4.77 MHz 8088 PC clone called
    the A2088, and a faster 10 MH 80286 clone, called the A2286.  Both
    products are made by Commodore and allow for 100% Clone emulation. 
    These boards are basically Commodore Clones (very popular in Europe)
    that have been re-engineered to fit on a standard Amiga expansion card.
    
    The A2286 comes with a 1.2 MB AT class floppy drive, the A2088 comes
    with a 360 Kb model.
    
    I've seen some ridiculously low prices on the A2088, like a few hundred
    dollars.
    
    Ed.

Re: .11

In addition to those boards CBM has also announced the 2088T, which is a 
turbocharged XT board with 10Mhz and (don't quote me on that) a 3.5" HD drive
plus more memory.
Availability? Dunno...

<CB>

    Re: .12  2088T turbo XT board
    
    	Why would they even think of doing something like this?  The
    XT has not been state-of-the-art for more than half a decade and
    has not been economicaly feasable for over a year. A 286 system
    costs little more than an XT system and provides more performance.
    For just a little more you can get a 386SX system with yet a bit
    more capability. 
    	I guess the answer lies in the use - as a secondary processor.
    The XT board is not intended to "be your computer", only to provide
    expanded capabilities for your computer. Saving a few bucks and
    accepting limited performance make a little sense in that context.
    The biggest argument against an XT-type system is that there will
    shortly be a significant loss of support for that technology, a
    serious concern for someone who relies on that support for their
    computing needs but not much of a problem when it's just an add-on
    board.

    
    That reminds me.... Where is the 80386 bridgeboard?  Ok, how about
    just a 386SX bridgeboard?  Or is that considered a "not a good thing"
    to plug into a 68000 box.  How about if I promise to only run it
    in a 2500/30?  :-) :-)
    
    -Dave 

    Dave,
    	you mean you don't want to wait for the BB486 that will be a
    "standard option" on the 3000/40? That will be the model that will
    make an audible sucking noise whenever Kermit (X/Y/Zmodem etc) is
    running - the one that leaves its "host" begging for mercy. "The
    power of a CRAY at your fingertips. . ." ;-)

 This isn't the perfect note to use but it is close. FYI, There is a fairly
 lively note (2703) in DNEAST::COMMUSIC comparing PC, MAC, Atari and Amiga
 as platforms for MIDI music software and other uses. I'm not writing this
 so that others will go shout the Amiga gospel, (we have good representatives
 doing that ;-) ), but you may find it interesting to read what people are 
 saying about the various platforms.

 Dave

Interesting, shminteresting! It's downright entertaining!!!

Seriously, the discussion is indeed quite lively, and it *has* so far been
relatively civilized (which is saying quite a bit!). Worth a look-see for anyone
not already entranced by this particular "notes opera.(TM)"

Hurricane Bob