Conference hydra::amiga_v1

    Sales are extremely regionally sensitive.  Around here, the Amiga
    seems to be doing pretty well.  I was in a local dealer when 75
    Amigae arrived.  They were all gone within two weeks.
    
    According to INFO magazine, there are now over 1000 commercial titles
    available.  Just checking the Mac, ST, and Amiga notes should pretty
    clearly point out how popular the Amiga is within DEC.
    
    In the UK, the Atari ST seems to be the best seller.  CBM started
    selling Amigas there a year too late, and at outrageous prices.
    Ditto for West Germany, but the Amiga may catch up.  They supposedly
    sold 110,000 A500s there in a few months.
    
    Anyway, CBM claims that over 500,000 machines have been sold.  Compare
    that to 1.5-2.0 Meg Macintoshes, and 11-15 Meg Pee Cees, and you
    can conclude that the Amiga really won't extinct either of those
    brands.
                                                        
    The history of the Amiga is pretty interesting.  The A1000, while
    praised as a hardware marvel, didn't catch on with business due to it's
    lack of slots and IBM compatibility, and it was too expensive for a
    home machine. The only people who bought it were hackers and wierdos,
    myself included. The operating system was still evolving, as were the
    expansion specs. This frustrated developers and gave the machine an
    early reputation as being very unstable and a beast to program.
    Despite this, they managed to sell all of them (around 150,000).
    Now that the OS is pretty robust, and the expansion specs are solid,
    more developers are signing up to support it.  I took it as a good
    sign that Antic Software, makers of most of some of the best stuff for
    the Atari, will be converting their best stuff for the Amiga.
    
    The A500 is the best ray of hope.  For the money, it is surely the most
    incredible amount of computing power ever offered.  Whether or not the
    rest of the world knows that is unclear.  I think it compares very
    favorably to the Atari 1040 ST and the Apple IIGS, it's chief
    competitors.
    
    I don't think the Amiga should be compared to the Mac.  Despite
    the similarities, they are targeted at two drastically different
    audiences.  
    
    Ed
    

    re: .0
    
    The Mac's success in breaking into the business market is exactly
    why the ST and Amiga are able to get into that market.  The Mac
    broke the "if it isn't ibmpc compatible..." mentality.  They don't
    have to wait as long for the software either, thanks to the Mac
    (68000 programming for a windowing environment) 
    
    The problem is that they have a long way to go to catch up in size
    of installed base and software maturity.  But remember, most of
    the titles are new, not old and crufty stuff from 5 years ago.
    
    CBM is trying to migrate the 6 million C64 owners to the Amiga 500.
    And is also going after the high end with the Amiga 2000.  Two very
    distinct markets, with 100% software compatibility.  So any business
    package that is ported to the 2000, can also run on the 500 or even
    1000.  And any game that runs on the 500 can run on the 2000 or 1000.
    Not that any business types would use a 2000 to play games :-)
    
    I don't think your friends should worry about the Amiga becoming
    an orphan, those days are over.  CBM finally figured out how to
    sell Amigas.
    
    re: .1
    
    Antic Software is going to port software to the Amiga?  Why?
    I thought they were firmly in the ST world and anti-Amiga.
    
    -dave

    
    I was just in a shop here in Washington D.C. (actually midway between
    D.C. and Annapolis - not the hotbed of computer stores that northern
    VA is!) and they had sold 5 A500s last Saturday alone! They said
    they can't keep them in stock!
    
    I figure I've been through this before. I bought a LaserDisk player
    within 6 months of their release about 5-6 years ago. It's taken
    over 4 years for them to catch on and now there's no shortage of
    titles on disk. They'll never replace VCRs just as Amigas will never
    replace PCs but they all have their strengths and weeknesses.
    
    -Ray
    
    

    Re: .0 and preferences for IBMs
                          
    You should remind your PC oriented friends that if they get an Amiga
    2000, they can install a fully functional PC/XT on a board into
    a slot on the A2000.  There is a '286 board in Europe and there will
    soon be a '386 board.
    
    The XT card is not vapor.  It exists, is shipping in quantities
    (< $500), and it works like a charm.  You can even multitask MS-Dos under
    AmigaDOS on a separate screen or window.  If the whole Amiga thing
    turns to dust, he can still play killer games on the Amiga side
    and do boring stuff on the PC side.
    
    Re:  .2 (Antic Software)
    
    Antic may or may not be anti-Amiga, but I bet they're pro-money.
    Really.  I can see rabid users carrying the banner for a particular
    brand name (except me, of course :^)), but software publishers have
    to pay attention to where the money is.
    
    CAD 3D and the Cyber system for the ST are really fantastic packages,
    in many ways surpassing what's available for the Amiga.  But until the
    ST gets 1) genlock, 2) real NTSC output, 3) a larger pallette, and 4) a
    hi-resolution color mode, I can't see it making headway into the
    desktop video market.  The Amiga owns that market right now. The
    MacII may take it away in a few years, but right now, the Amiga
    kicks butt in that area.
    
    According to INFO magazine, Tom Hudson and Antic were snooping
    about at AmiExpo LA.  John Foust has spoken with them and although
    they won't commit, there are strong hints that they will enter the
    Amiga market.  There's certainly no need to abandon the ST market
    to do that.
    
    Ed.
    
    

    re: .3 IBM compatibility
    
    If you hook up the bridge card, I can run an Amiga window and a
    PC window simultaneously?
    
    Can they share Amiga memory? Or do they have their own distinct
    memory? 
    
    I read, in a few notes back, where the disk operations are slow,
    if you are sharing the Amiga disk. Is this still true?
    
    One of my buddies has a Targa Graphics board, which plugs into a
    PC bus. He would like to know if you can:
    
    1) plug it into the Amiga's PC bus,
    
    2) Run a graphics CALCULATION program on the 68000 ( Amiga), and
    put pixel info into the Amiga's memory, which the PC can read and
    insert into the graphics memory (i.e. shared memory).
    
    In this way, he can utilize the high speed Amiga for calculations,
    and off load the PC CPU.
    
    Another question concerning whether the Amiga is picking up - 
    
    one of the benchmarks you can use is software available (which you
    have all responded to). Another is the range of peripherals. Are
    third party vendors building nifty devices for the Amiga at an ever
    increasing rate?
    
    
    			Thanks for the responses,
    
    				Gregg

    re: ST people doing Amiga software.
    
    This doesn't surprise me in the least.
    
    The US ST market seems to have practically ground to a standstill in
    every area except music applications.  The availability of the hardware
    is not very good (all the systems are going to europe, they claim) and
    the extant owner base seems to be a bit disillusioned about the future
    of the machine.
    
    Many ST owners are waiting for a sign, ANYTHING from Atari (Sunnyvale,
    that is) to re-stimulate interest in the machines.  The amount of
    pending vaporware is awesome--a LAN, a new version of ROM, a blitter,
    an '020 add-on, an '030 add-on, and a transputer add-on are some of
    the notable items ``under development''.
    
    With people this unexcited about the machine, the software is not
    selling well, and many developers find it difficult to write software
    for boring machines. (PC software developers don't seem suffer from this
    hangup :-))
    
    Therefore, I have heard of a resonable number of ST developers
    migrating to the Amiga.
    
    But just wait 'til they release the new version of TOS.
    
    Steph      

    re: .5--I can answer some of your PC questions.  I have an Amiga
    2000 with the BridgeBoard installed.
    
    a) Yes, you can run an Amiga window and a PC window simultaneously.
    
    b) No, they can't share Amiga memory.  The PC has its own 512K of
    memory.  There is also a 64K memory that is accessible to both,
    but I don't have any information on how to use that, from either
    side.  The Amiga BridgeBoard software uses it to emulate the PC's
    monitor and additional floppies, plus give the PC access to the
    Amiga's parallel port.
    
    c1) I don't see why not.  I got an IBM PC interface for my Roland
    MPU-401 and plugged it into the PC bus with no trouble.  I verified
    that it worked first by typing in a Basic program from a magazine
    and more recently by running the demo version of CakeWalk.
    
    c2) You can do this somewhat clumsily by writing a file on the 68000
    side, and copying the file to the PC side, then having the PC
    program read the file.  Supposedly it is possible to do direct
    task-to-task communication, but I haven't been able to find any
    documentation about how to do this.
        John Sauter

	There may be a tricky way of sharing some memory using the
	bridgeboard. I haven't tried it, but sounds like it might
	work. You could create a virtual disk on the pc side, that is
	a file in RAM: (works great as a PC ramdisk). Then you could
	open the file on the amiga side and read/write it. Its a bit
	messy I admit, and I don't know what the performance would
	be like. Just a thought.

	Frank

    Re:  All these previous replys...
    
    I'm not so sure about using an EGA card in an A2000 slot.  Doesn't the
    BridgeBoard use the Amiga display hardware to display PC graphics? If
    so, then there would be a problem, since EGA uses a higher horizontal
    scan rate than the Amiga.  Also, EGA uses 350 horizontal lines,
    something the Amiga doesn't understand.
    
    As far as peripherals for the Amiga go, there are lots of anouncements,
    but it's all VAPOR until you can actually hold one in your hand.
    C Ltd has announced a CD-ROM reader that runs under their SCSI host.
    Laser printers can easily be attached to any Amiga today.  All you
    need is a printer driver.
    
    As far as networking goes, AmeriStar has an Ethernet board, but
    I don't know if its actually shipping.  I've never seen one myself.
    
    Amiga hard drives are finally coming down in price.  I recently got a
    65 MB Seagate and SCSI controller for $800.
    
    One of the more interesting Amiga peripherals is NewTek's Video    
    Toaster.  NewTek sort of got put on the map with their excellent
    color digitizer hardware/software package.  The Video Toaster is
    supposed to be a complete professional video special effects generator.
    It is a combination broadcast quality Genlock, frame grabber, and
    just about anything else you can think of.  See the latest INFO
    for more details.
    
    Steph, I didn't see a smiley after your remark about a new version
    of TOS, so I assume you were serious.  What are the new features?
    Is it bug fixes or a major upgrade?  Support for 68020, larger
    displays, etc?
                
    Ed.
    

    re: .5 hardware question
    
>        Another question concerning whether the Amiga is picking up - 
>    one of the benchmarks you can use is software available (which you
>    have all responded to). Another is the range of peripherals. Are
>    third party vendors building nifty devices for the Amiga at an ever
>    increasing rate?
    
    The "May" issue of _Amazing Computing_, vol. 3 no. 5 (blue cover with
    helicopter drawing), has a hardware product guide featuring about 250
    products from about 60 manufacturers.  A lot of the products are
    variations on one another, and a lot of companies are barely past the
    garage shop stage, but the Amiga hardware market has been growing.  The
    quality and features of many hardware products have been getting
    better, too. 
    
    Categories in the hardware guide are: accelerators/coprocessors,
    clocks, memory expansion, hard drives, other [kinds of] drives,
    expansion chassis, SCSI controllers, interfaces, networking, printer
    drivers, audio, MIDI interfaces, video, graphics, modems, floppy disk
    drives, hardware modifications and miscellaneous. Clocks and hardware
    modifications apply to the A1000 (no longer in production) and
    expansion chassis to the A500 and A1000.
    
    You can pick up _Amazing_ at most B. Dalton and Crown bookstores.
    ELF says you are in Hartford, CT.  You might try local dealers...
    the magazine lists Aetna Life Club Store in Hartford, Computer Outlet
    in Vernon, Personal Computer Center in Norwich or Software Kingdom
    in E. Windsor, all listed in the magazine.
    
    Some answers about the viability of the Amiga line might come from
    Max Toy, president of Commodore.  He is appearing on "The Computer
    Show," carried on channel 27, Worcester, at 10:30 PM this Sunday.
    Don't know if any Connecticut station carries the show.
    
    Wes

    re: .9, EGA card
    
    If I remember the BridgeBoard documentation correctly, you can add
    an EGA board if you also tell the 68000 side _not_ to emulate a
    monitor.  You then attach your EGA monitor to the EGA card.  This
    means that you need two monitors, of course: one for AmigaDOS and
    one for the PC.
    
    I haven't tried this, you understand.  Emulated CGA is good enough
    for me.
        John Sauter

    
    the interface (the janus library) between the amiga and ibmpc
    sides is documented in the Amiga 500/2000 Technical Reference
    Manual (available from Commodore for $40).
    
    Has anybody tried a VGA board?  It does analog RGB, I wonder if
    it could be hooked to the 1080?  Then just have an RGB switch box
    to decide who gets the monitor.
    
    -dave

    Naw, the 1080 is a 15.75 KHz horizontal scan monitor.  VGA is 31.5
    KHz.
    
    This is why I now encourage new buyers to get a multiscan type monitor.
    It will work just fine with a stock Amiga or any other machine that
    you may migrate to.
    
    Ed.
    

    Re:  new version of TOS.
    
    The major rumored feature is a complete rewrite of GEMDOS.  This
    means fixes of the 40 folder bug, and removal of the molasses from
    the file handling (specifically, the FAT) code.  I think it is also
    reputed to fix the file selector.
    
    Alan Pratt mentioned several weeks ago that he was getting pretty
    close, and I think he is a trustworth type--good light to heat ratio
    in his messages.
    
    What Atari does with his work, however, I'm afraid to even contemplate.
    They have a new PR man, who is enthusiastic about the products,
    but I'm not sure he really understand the current, disgruntled state
    of the user base.  Neil Harris is gone.
    
    Steph

    What about service?
    
    I have read where Commodore is impossible to get on the phone (busy
    line). And if you do, the techies know nothing. Has this been your
    experience?
    
    What do you do when your machine breaks?
    
    			Gregg

    re: .15
    
    I haven't had much experience with my machine breaking, but on the
    few occasions when it has I send the broken part back to the store
    where I bought the system and they replace it.
    
    So far I've replaced one mouse and one modem.  The mouse was within
    the warranty, the modem isn't.  I am now using a loaner modem; I
    expect to get my own modem back, after its fixed, and I expect to
    pay for the repair.
    
    I've never called Commodore, or wanted to.
        John Sauter

    re: .15
    
    Many dealers do their own warranty repairs or contract them out.
    Usenet has carried a few horror stories, but warranty repairs seem
    to depend on the quality of the dealer.  Machines out of warranty
    can be sent off to repair companies which advertise their rates.
    For instance, D-Five in the Boston area is well known and has had
    no complaints in this notesfile that I know of.
    
    Commodore is really not set up to talk to us users.  Getting spare
    parts ("I know the parallel chip is burned out, why do I have to
    put the machine in the shop for two weeks?") is a real nightmare.
    Some people have waited 2-3 months for single chips to arrive.
    
    Strangely enough, Commodore-Amiga Technical Support, which supports
    hardware and software developers, is very responsive to inquiries,
    and will ship out developers documentation and hardware manuals
    in under two weeks, even if paid for by personal check.

    So the best advice is to choose a good dealer.

    Since the title of this note is ``Are Amiga's catching on?'', I take
    that as an invitation for comparision with other system.
    
    Atari still has a $90 motherboard swap offer for their ST systems.
    You send them your system and $90 and they will fix it for you by
    swapping boards.  I don't know how responsive they are now, but
    six months ago I heard about some 2 week turn-arounds.
    
    I, fortunately, haven't personally had to exercise this privelege.
    
    Steph

    I don't know how reliable my new A2000 will be, but my Oct. '85
    A1000 ran for 2.6 years w/o a single glitch.  I even (accidently)
    left it on through a hurricane, where the power hiccupped repeatedly.
    The darn thing never even re-booted itself!
    
    There have been reports of chips working loose in the A500s.  The
    solution is usually to push them back in.  Oddly, Atari has the
    same problem.  Possiby these non-detachable keyboard machines take
    a bit more abuse than a PC-type box.
    
    The A500 is a marvel of cost-reduction.  CBM integrated many discreet
    components on the A1000 into big VLSI mothers on the 50.  With so few 
    parts, one would expect the reliability to be good.
                          
    Depending on how deeply you become involved in the Amiga community,
    it's actually easy to get on a first name basis with the engineers
    who designed the machines.  CBM is officially present on BIX, but
    Dave Haynie, Andy Finkel, RJ Mical, and others all have accounts
    on PLINK.  They show up for conferences to answer technical/programming
    questions, and to start or stop rumors.  They are all incredibly
    friendly and helpful.
    
    In fact, the Amiga community as a whole seems to be a pretty
    enlightened bunch.  The enthusiasm that people have for the machine and
    it's future is remarkable.  I could care less that there are
    umpty-bazillion Plingsnart model 5000 PCs out there.
    
    Anyway, this note and it's replys could go on forever... whoever
    it is that is considering buying a computer should not base their
    decision on personality cults, religious enthusiasm, or whether
    or not they know the designers by name.  You should decide what
    on earth you want a computer for.  Then, determine whether or not
    the software to do what you want is available.  If the software
    and hardware meet your requirements and budget, just go buy it. 

    Another nice feature of the Amiga which Ed didn't elaborate on is
    the tremendous third party vendor support that the machines already
    have - particularly the A2000. Sure, you can buy one with all the
    Commodore options, or you can play the field and come up with floppy
    drives from NEC, hard drives from Seagate, extra memory from Micron,
    etc. Its not just a one company machine that you invest in. The
    big plus I see is that the folks supporting this machine (Software
    Shop, Memory Location, LCA, etc) are all regular sorts who use the
    wares they sell. They all go out of the way to keep their clientele
    happy to boot. I never did trust someone in a blue suit and tie
    trying to sell me a box of floppy disks!
    
    I started off with a C64, then a C128, an Amiga 1000, and now and
    Amiga 2000. I'll stick with this machine for awhile!
    
    Paul

    Re: .4
    
    Videokey is shipping in limited quantities now, production next
    Videokey is an RGB->NTSC converter for the ST.  Teamed with Cyber
    Studio and a Beta machine with flying erase heads, you can supposedly
    do some fantastic things, it is supposedly how Antic's Cyber demo tape
    was produced.
    
    I agree, Antic would be more likely to be pro-money, and it would
    make a lot of sense for them to do some ports to the Amiga.
    
    							-Dave