Conference 7.286::digital

Jack -

Unfortunately, the 'approved' Digital hotel lists are either out of date,
or are compiled by folks who have never traveled on business.

I've been to Atlanta quite a few times.  One approved hotel I went to
seemed to fit into the 'no-tell' Motel variety, complete with 'hot
tubs' in the room (and I saw pubic hairs in the tub, so I checked out
and went to a non-approved hotel).  ANother one was probably a nice
hotel in the 1950's.

It's embarrassing to meet clients, or folks from other companies, and
you tell 'em you are staying in some second rate hotel...

Of course, I've always felt the folks who come up with these lists
of hotels and the various travel rules and restrictions are people
who think business travel is a treat, or a perk (and anyone who
travels a lot knows what the real case is...)

I've also found that many of the 'Digital' rates aren't that 
good.  I've been able to get a cheaper rate on my own, at "digital
approved hotels".   

JD

    
    Re: .0
    
    A very good question, Jack.  
    
    I remember once going to COMDEX in Las Vegas and being stuck in a hotel
    on the outskirts of town with two big problems: 1) The air conditioning
    was not working.  It was near 90 in the room so I was unable to sleep
    well and, therefore, not at my best when doing booth duty.  2) There
    was very clear evidence on the doorjamb that the room had been broken
    into maybe several times and no attempt seemed to have been made to
    ensure that it was secure.  After that experience I made a personal
    decision that if I could not have accomodations that would ensure that
    I could rest well enough to do a good job while I was there AND feel
    secure that I simply would not travel, period.
    
    If I was on a trip and found the accomodations that way again,
    I would either get them improved right then and there or I'd
    be on the next plane home.  It's bad enough to be away from my
    family, but in that context it is simply not to be tolerated.
    My rule is that if cheap or not I wouldn't stay there on my own
    dime then I won't stay there for the company either.
    
    Steve
    

    Our group manager has asked each employee to follow up by reporting
    if their accomodations were "unsafe".  This is the only way things
    will get fixed.  If you move to fancier digs, then you'll pay.
    
    He's still trying to change the policy that makes employees pay the
    charge for using the phone in the room...
    
    Mark

re: .3, Mark

>                            -< you must report it >-

I guess that was part of my question - "To whom?"

-Jack

This was my second Atlanta DECUS in a row.  Last year I stayed in a horrible
hotel - we did not use that hotel this year, largely due to the complaints I
and others made.  This year, a hotel which had not been used last year was 
added to the list, and unfortunately it was just as bad if not worse.  However, 
this is not Digital's fault.

At first, none of the hotels on the DECUS bus route had rates that were
within the then-current $69 limit for Atlanta.  We were told of a property
off the bus route which was a lower rate - several people stayed there
and it was quite pleasant from what I heard.  Then we were told that a $69
rate had been approved at several hotels which WERE on the bus route.  One
of them was a member of a chain which has a well-thought-of hotel in Nashua,
and I know a number of people made reservations there on that basis.  
Actually, I did too, but then I got a message saying that the approved rate
for Atlanta had been boosted to $75 and an additional hotel was now honoring
that rate - I switched to the $75 hotel (which I had seen before and I knew
was nice.)  In hindsight, I made the right move, many of my compatriots were
not so prescient.

The folks who organize DECUS for us here in ZKO ask for feedback on hotels
so we know which to avoid and which to seek out in the future.  I am sure
they heard an earful about the bad experiences.  One problem is that DECUS
shifts around, and the situation can change in the number of years between
a repeat location (though it was Atlanta last year as well.)

There are a number of nice hotels available at low rates.  In the specific
case of DECUS, there are a smaller set of hotels which are "on the bus route"
and these charge premium rates.  But at least this time, there ended up being
at least four properties on the bus route which had Digital-approved rates.

If you have a bad experience with a hotel, be sure to let the folks who
arrange accomodations know.  For software engineering groups attending DECUS,
this is Trish Gagnon; Trish did send mail to all attendees she was connected
with asking for feedback on accomodations. 

					Steve

    I used to travel quite extensively and when they started having us stay
    at second and even third rate hotels I was shocked.  The last few trips
    I went on the truckers were parked outside and the place was a dive. 
    It was not a very comfortable feeling.  I find it hard to believe that
    a company the size of Digital cannot negotiate some reasonable rates
    with reasonable hotels rather than paying full price at these other
    establishments!   Whoever has been responsible for this has been
    shirking its responsibility.  
    
    
    One suggestion I can make is that if there is a customer in the area,
    call and ask them what hotels they use and if you can get their rate. 
    This has been a great way to stay somewhere better than what Digital
    travel recommended. 

    You might try contacting Diane COUTURE in TRAVEL 223-8297.  

    
    
    Well, I know that I've rented cars before and got a corporate rate on a
    mid-size car cheaper than the Digital rate on a compact car.  It is not
    easily understood, I have to say.
    
    
    
    Mike

	Applying sommon sense, let's assume a one-week conference staffed
	by 10 Digital people. That's 50-60 hotel nights to pay.

	If each hotel night costs $65, the total cost is $3250-$3900.
	Now if you use better hotels costing $100, the total cost is
	$6500. The difference is $4000 tops.

	Many of our software products and almost all of our hardware
	(workstations and servers anyway) cost more than $4000. Gross
	margin on software is up in the 80%+ range. Thus, selling one
	extra software license for a small to middle size computer
	will wipe out that $6000 delta.

	Frankly, the technical term for this sort of penny pinching
	is 'sheer bloody nonsense". It may enable some VP to brag that
	through this programme Digital has saved $500,000 this year -
	without mentioning that that is the amount the employees spend
	on coffee every fortnight, or the profit on one high end sale -
	or, above all, that against the visible gain should be set an
	invisible loss.

	Because tired, frightened, disgruntled employees will not
	perform well at a trade show. It costs typically upwards of
	$50,000 to attend a trade show, and that means that the
	expected return is at least double that. Either you do it
	right, or you shouldn't do it at all. Doing it in a cheap,
	half baked way shouldn't be an option.

	/Tom

    Well said.
    

    
    
    	.9
    
    
    	"Cheap half-baked", is that the new DIGITAL ? The "bean counters"
    	don't care if you are in top form, rested and able to give our
    	customers the BEST. They worry over MONEY, MONEY and more MONEY.
    	Which in itself is OK, BUT when it starts to impact our ability to
    	provide the service we are used to providing they start to cost
    	DIGITAL MONEY, MONEY and more MONEY.
    
    
        just an opinion.
    	me                                               
    
    	

    I wonder where all of our "NEW" leaders stay??  I guess lead my
    "EXAMPLE" is not in their dictionaries...
    
    
    
    Joe 

    Today I read a mail stating that ALL discretionary spending in Europe
    has to be approved by Mr. Poulsen himself via the different territory
    managers. "Discretionary" is used to refer to any expenditure that does
    not directly contribute to the generation of revenue. This seems very
    open to interpretation and discussion.
    
    Further, ALL software purchases have been frozen. ALL "discretionary"
    travel is forbidden. ALL travel for training is forbidden. Any phone
    calls outside the company will be subject to control. The Minitel
    servers will be shut down. Access to long distance lines will be
    removed from most phones. The list goes on...
    
    Is this how we are to prepare for the battle ahead?
          
    Salut,
    Edward

    I just got back from a short business trip during which my reservations
    were apparently screwed up.  I called Cook ("travel") at their 800
    number (374-5858) and, after pressing the appropriate buttons, talked
    to a real person who checked out what happened and reported back.
    
    Try doing the same about the hotel situation.
    

  There are some strange things happening in the hotel business. The fact that
a chain is "reputable" doesn't mean much if the manager of a specific hotel
is a jerk. And a "good" hotel can go downhill quickly if it gets a new, in-
ferior manager or goes to a new chain (which happens often). Relying on lists
that are compiled remotely and not often updated doesn't work. How long do you
think travel guides such as Mobil would stay in business if they didn't send
people to stay overnight in and thoroughly check out the hotels they recommend?
The same is true of the Digital hotel listings. Since we apparently can't rely
on the Digital hotel lists to find and book good hotel rooms for conventions 
such as DECUS, I second the comment a few back that one should find someone in
the target area who is familiar with the hotels and ask for advice.
  Noise and air-conditioning problems in hotels are two of my hot buttons. 
Last winter I stayed in a "reputable" hotel on personal travel in NH in which
the room doors slammed loudly when closed, causing noise that made it diffi-
cult to sleep. This is a design fault that could have been fixed for less than
$10 a room. Sometimes I wonder if hotel designers and managers are brain dead.

    
    Thomas Cook negotiates rates for hotels on their own.
    
    On a recent trip to Toronto, the TC rate was cheaper than
    the Digital rate.
    
    This might give you a few more hotel choices on your next trip.

RE: .1

>I've been to Atlanta quite a few times.  One approved hotel I went to
>seemed to fit into the 'no-tell' Motel variety, complete with 'hot
>tubs' in the room (and I saw pubic hairs in the tub, so I checked out
>and went to a non-approved hotel).  ANother one was probably a nice
>hotel in the 1950's.

Ah, you stayed at the Clarence Thomas Hotel! You should have known better.

Frankly, I'm surprised we're even letting people stay in hotels and not
just providing each employee with a cardboard box to sleep in.

    RE: last few
    
    I've found that filling out the customer comment cards can be
    effective.
    
    I stayed at a hotel that WAS recommended to me by someone in the local
    area, and was an approved hotel on VTX. There were minor problems with
    the room which I made a point to note when I filled out their customer
    comment card. I didn't have a problem giving my name, address, etc.
    
    I received an apologetic letter from the property indicating that they
    were going through renovations, and that the room that I was staying in
    had not been renovated yet. To help make up for my 'inconvenience',
    they offerred a complimentary night's accomodation if I decided to stay
    with them in the future.
    
    I had been travelling regularly at the time, so my next trip out, I
    booked into the same property, gave the travel agent the comp.
    information from the letter, and I got 2 nights accomodations for the
    price of one. I did get a nicer, quieter room and saved Digital 1
    night's lodging expense!
    
    Your results may vary, but I always fill out the comment cards, even if
    it's just checking off the boxes on the card. This gives the property
    some feedback. I usually throw the card in my brief case before I check
    out, and fill it out while I'm waiting at the airport.
    
    HTH,
    
    Kevin
    

Some hotels listen, and others don't.  At DECUS last year I stayed at a major
hotel in Atlanta and found that the rate I was paying through DECUS was far
higher than many of the patrons, for a room that was in ratty shape.  The
hotel, not a Marriott, had beds labelled "made exclusively for Marriott" - 
they'd either gotten them when they bought the hotel (which looked like 
a 1960s Marriott) or they'd bought them used.  One way or the other, the 
place was in serious need of new beds, repairs, and such.

I sent mail to the chain and didn't hear a thing.  The Delta Chelsea (?) 
hotel in Toronto responded, however, when I complained about something there.
They even detailed what they were going to do to fix the problem.

M

    To the best of my knowledge Joyce Flinn (POWDML::FLINN) is the person
    you want to send your travel comments to.  ALWAYS let them know
    ANYTHING about your travel experience or they can't address it
    accordingly.  
    
    -sandy
    

    I stayed in an inexpensive (Digital) hotel in Massachusetts. I asked
    for and received a non-smoking room. It appears (hindsight) that the
    hotel reduced its costs by not changing the air conditioning filters in
    the rooms. The result is that I was worthless for several days after
    each trip. It took me a few trips to associate the tiredness and
    malaise with the hotel. I finally put it together when I had to go back
    for one more meeting about a month after the initial visits.
    
    Overall, Digital saved about a total of $30 in room charges versus a
    Marriott nearby. Digital lost about three person weeks of effort. I
    got, according to my doctor, a life-long sensitivity to the mold that
    was growing in the uncleaned air conditioners in the different rooms
    that I stayed in.
    
    As an aside, I mentioned Digital's policy to my brother who is a fire
    protection engineer. He said that he has heard that there are a number
    of people who buy distressed motels and move them to different chains
    and reduce the prices because they know they can get business from
    companies like Digital. These people do NO maintainance until forced to
    by local authorities. Frequently fire inspections turn up LOCKed exit
    doors (to many people sneak out without paying), disconnected smoke and
    fire alarms (they keep going off), dry fire extinguishers, no
    sprinklers, etc. A number of Digital recommended hotels fit these
    characteristics. Most of these hotels also eliminate security patrols
    as well.
    
    

    	There are several problems here that some of the noters have
    pointed out.
    	We can go and informed Thomas Cook, our new travel/hotel/car_rental
    supplier of our problems, and most probably some of them will get
    better.   
    	However the real root cause will not be eliminated.
    
    	First and foremost is the question in our minds: Is everybody in
    this corporation using the same ruler ?   Is everybody staying in the
    Thomas Cook or DEC hotels, using the lowest traval available, etc. or
    are there 'differences' depending on your particular title ?
    ------Lead by Example-----someone quoted.  Are we ???????????????????
    
    	Second why is cost so important.   That has always bothered me.
    It is my opinion that Cost Competitiveness alone, will achine nothing
    for us or any company that decides to follow suit.    In order to be
    a World-Class company as our top management is crying out loud, we
    must have: (T)imeliness, (Q)uality and (C)ost, it is either all or
    nothing !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    The only thing we will do if we follow cost only is get ourselves
    either out of business or severy cripple our company's future (we are now
    number 3 not number 2 as it used to be).
    
    	Third, we are supposed to be a Customer Oriented Company, what our
    customers will think if you invite then to a third rate conference
    room.  I think our credibility will be severely impacted.
    
    	We can not continue this insanity !!!!!!!
    

>I sent mail to the chain and didn't hear a thing.  The Delta Chelsea (?) 
>hotel in Toronto responded, however, when I complained about something there.
>They even detailed what they were going to do to fix the problem.

  I'm not surprised they responded. Canadian businesses in general treat their
customers very well.
  I usually fill out the feedback cards too, and mail them, not drop them off
at the desk. There is a chance that the desk clerk will throw away the card
without passing on the card or data to the manager.
  Digression re mold in A/C unit: if it's a room unit (not central A/C), one
trick I use which helps a little is to spray Lysol into the unit intake while 
it's running.

	re .21:

>    I got, according to my doctor, a life-long sensitivity to the mold that
>    was growing in the uncleaned air conditioners in the different rooms
>    that I stayed in.

	From what I have heard, it might be worth your while to discuss
	this episode with a lawyer who could advise you as to what recourse
	you may have.

	People who are presumably breaking the law and who thereby cause
	you significant medical harm, while misrepresenting their services,
	seem to me to owe you something, and also to merit punishment.

	/Tom

Regarding "DEC approved" hotels - my understanding is that Digital does
not "approve" hotels, specifically, but rather keeps a list of hotels for
which it has negotiated rates that are acceptable to the bean-counters.
There are also lists of maximum allowable rates for most major cities.
As far as I know, nobody goes and makes "inspections" of the properties as
AAA might do.  The folks who arrange accomodations must rely on the reports
of employees who have stayed at the various properties in order to determine
whether or not to recommend a specific hotel.  (Needless to say, this problem
is made worse by the company changing travel vendors every couple of years.)

I do agree with the suggestion made earlier that you find someone local
to your destination to recommend a hotel.  In many cases, local sales offices
have separately negotiated rates at very nice hotels (they'd better be, as
they put customers up there) which are better than what the corporate travel
agent knows about.  (I took advantage of this on a recent business trip
and ended up staying at a posh Doubletree hotel for less than the Ramada
motel which was the best that Amex could find.)

My advice would be to NOT rely on Thomas Cook to find you a "good" hotel -
all they really know is what hotels there are negotiated rates with.  If
it matters to you, make some inquiries of local people, or check out guide
books such as are put out by AAA and Mobil.  This can also give you a list
of additional properties Cook won't know about.

If things are tight (as they were when I was to attend Comdex last fall),
try calling the city's local convention bureau.  I did that and found
decent (though amusing) convenient accomodations for about 1/3 less than
most of my companions paid for lesser digs.

					Steve

Steve -

All well and good.  But friends of mine who work at other large
corporations don't have to worry about finding 'good' hotels,
or worrying if the accomodations the company makes will be
acceptable.  They are put up in good hotels.  

Business travel causes enough stress without the traveler having
to worry about every little detail.  Digital shouldn't list
hotels in VTX as recommendations (and that's what they are) if
they don't know the quality of them.  

And as expressed in other notes, the rules aren't enforced
evenly.  I do travel often, and remember last year's DECUS, when
we were told we couldn't stay in certain hotels because they
were over the Digital rate for the city.  We stayed in recommended
hotels that were flea bags.  Other Digital folks from other groups
stayed in the nice, expensive hotels, with not repercussions.

Overall, it makes sense to try to eliminate waste in the company,
but sometimes, saving a few bucks actually costs much more...

JD

    RE: 23  
    
    You cannot put lysol on your expenses though!!! :-)
    
    I once had a manager who, when he traveled, stayed at the "Y", and
    tried to get the rest of us to do the same.  The "Y" was either free, 
    or only 5 or 10 bucks (I forget)...and this was when we were doing
    good!
    

    
    A few years ago I went out of town to install a system. I drove
    to this town, went I got to the Digital office I ask a department
    cordenator where DEC managers stay, so that's where I stay! It
    was very nice, thank you.
    
    rob

    
    When I worked for a previous employer, that was a large chemical
    concern, SAFETY was the MOST important item. We had to rent cars with
    air bags (the rate they had with Hertz #1 gold membership (free) was
    $30 a day for a full size taurus) They had minimum requirements for
    hotels, they had to have interior entrances and various other
    standards. One good lawsuit about having employees stay at an unsafe
    hotel and the thousands saved will be millions wasted.

.1> Unfortunately the 'approved' Digital hotel lists are either out of date,
.1> or are compiled by folks who have never traveled on business.
    
    Then we could just rely on AAA's hotel and motel ratings.
    
    When I've used them, they've seemed to be accurate.
    
    It's not like this problem is that difficult to resolve.

    On Sunday, June 13, at about 10:30:PM I checked into the Marriott
    Marquis in Manhattan.  I was to deliver a MS Lan Manager course aw AWO
    the following week.
    
    The clerk asked me how many keys I needed.  I replied that I needed
    just one, as I was alone.  
    
    He gave TWO, putting them into the paper envelope provided for such,
    and I remember thinking "why did you ask me if you gave me two?".  In
    my ignorance, I dismissed the thought.  I pocketed one of the keys, and
    left the second in the envelope which I placed on top of the desk in
    my room.  
    
    On Tuesday, between 11PM and 6:30 AM Wednesday, someone entered my room
    and stole my wallet.  I was asleep at the time.  I discovered the loss
    and immediately called security and the credit card companies.  
    
    The story tures into your worst night mare from there.  I won't go into
    it here as there might be litigation and it is very lengthy.
    
    However... let me warn you all... even if you secure your door's
    internal latches... there are ways to enter quietly.  
    
    In my case, the second key was first stolen from the room.... your
    guess is as good as mine... and that key, along with stiff wire and
    cardboard which I found outside the door in the AM, were used to
    quietly enter the room.
    
    The next week, the Manhattan Marriot Marquis was removed from the
    "approved" list of hotels by Thomas Cook.  I have no Idea if they are
    still removed.
    
    Beware ANY hotel... even those with good reputations.
    
    tony