Conference 7.286::digital

    I admit this is confusing.  If you look in the "Overview" booklet,
    it suggests that the optional PAI also makes payments if a covered
    person is seriously injured in an accident, plus benefit boosts if
    the victim was wearing a seat belt (presumably, seat belt use
    decreases the chance that you'd need to collect) and an "education
    benefit".
    
    But I agree that the wording suggests that the GUL doesn't cover
    accidents, which is just crazy.  Why not call CIGNA and ask?
    
    					Steve

    There is one kicker in the booklets which somehow escaped my notice
    in the earlier messages about the changes - that's that any basic
    coverage over $50K is a taxable benefit, but that you can elect to
    reduce your coverage to 50K so as to avoid additional taxes.
    
    				Steve

    
    Sounds like 6 cigna to me  :-)
    
    

Life insurance over $50,000 paid for by the employer has been taxable for as
far back as I can remember, and that's generally why companies usually pay for
life insurance in some multiple of your salary up to a max of $50,000. I 
suspect that most companies just don't offer insurance beyond the $50,000 just
so they don't have to deal with the additional paperwork involved in paying the
taxes. But there are companies that do go over that limit, and they have to
report the additional income (which is the amount they paid for that insurance
over the limit) on your W-4 and you claim it on your taxes.  I always had to
include that when my husband worked at Grossman's because they did provide
the insurance over $50,000.

I read this thing from cover to cover (not the most exciting work I 
have read this year, for sure) and on the face of it it seems
like an incredible insurance value. The Cash Accumulation vehicle
loan system looks like a licence to steal...8%loan with 6% rebate??

by my arithmetic, I could get the same term (salary x3) as I have now
for about 4$ less per week or spend 3/4 of the 4$ to pick up an
500K accident policy that covers the whole familiy (but 60% of it on
spouse and 15% child).

Daddy always said if it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't.

    The Cash Accumulation vehicle sounds real good.
    
    I'm not too enthused about the life insurance prices.  I pay $250 for
    term insurance now (AMICA).  If I computed it correctly, I would have
    to pay $300 for the same amount from the new guys.
    
                                August G. Reinig

Re: Note 2694.5 by SPESHR::ROCKWELL

>>The Cash Accumulation vehicle loan system looks like a licence to
>>steal...8%loan with 6% rebate??

License to steal? Pretty much. Why should you have to pay interest
on your own money if you take it out? You don't do that at your bank
with a savings account but you do with a life insurance policy.

Not trying to throw stones... just pointing out that what is touted as a
'feature' may not really be one.

Lee

>>    The Cash Accumulation vehicle sounds real good.
  
As a general rule of thumb, you're almost always better off buying term
insurance and managing your own investments through plans like SAVE or
mutual funds.  There is no inherent value in mixing the two needs (insurance
for family protection and investing for the future).  The insurance company
makes out like a bandit in most of these plans.  

Now I haven't studied the CIGNA plan yet, but I am sceptical of it's value, 
based on my personal experience.


Bob

  Consumer Reports had an excellent article on term life
  insurance in the July 1993 edition. They separated the
  categories into 35 & 45 year olds, male & female,
  annual and 10 year policies. They rated the policies 
  primarily on past costs (and future costs, if guaranteed), 
  as well as the financial stability of the insurer and the 
  niceties like Living Benefits. Here is a comparison of 
  the costs:


  Annual Premium for a $250,000 term life insurance policy

		         Average of		DEC's Cigna 
		  Consumer Report's Top 10	  Policy

			Men 	Women		  Unisex

  Age 35 		$287	$238		  $300
  
  Age 45 		$408	$388		  $630


  See the magazine for details on the individual policies
  and insurers.

  These are for individual policies. Group policies ought 
  to be able to do a lot better. For example I purchase 
  my life insurance through the ASME (policy issued by 
  New York Life). At age 36 I pay $216 annually for a $270,000 
  policy, though most years I get a rebate (I guess because we 
  mechanical engineers live such dull, danger free lives ;^) 
  So DEC's new coverage under Cigna won't entice me to switch.

IMHO, a switch from offering term insurance to offering 'cash value'
insurance to its employees indicates DEC is making money on this switch.

Traditionally, 'cash value' insurance is SOLD (read: 'marketed') instead
of term because the insurance salesperson makes lots more commission on
the deal.

Lee

re .7 and borrowing back your own money with interest ...

Why? Because even if not planned, "stuff"-happens ... Like when I was finishing
off a major house project and our stock dropped 50% over the course of the
project and I needed the cash to finish - I used my DEC SAVE plan funds as a
short-term loan and paid interest to the SAVE plan (all of it right into my
account in this case). Nothing I would have planned-for, but better than taking
out a loan with anyone else when the stock's price floor collapsed with me
holding contractor's bills. It's just another strategy, this kind of account.

Norm

So I am not an investment guru..............
Where do you get this cash value notion?
The papers I got talk about TERM insurance.

My perhaps naive understanding of this is that cash value insurance
gives you money at some point, though probably never as much as
you could have made playing with investment guru's, and you can 
be alive to collect.

My understanding of what I read about GUL is that you have to 
kick the bucket to collect  8^) This is what I thought TERM ment.
"we pay when your term is up".
(except for the accidental plan which I understood
was seperate and in any event so cheap as to be hardly worth talking
about, and the amount they pay for "alive but hurting" is unspecified).

If the proposed plan is suboptimal to those of you who study 
these things, its good that
we point it out to each other. I was aware from the CR articles that
our current plan was pricey. The proposed plan looks much cheaper,
with more flexibility and alternatives. i.e. BETTER
And with family plan looks a bit more balanced than what I carry now,
which is mostly to cover myself heavily as chief breadwinner.

Re: .13, bogus number

I called the number and straightened it out... it seems that 800
number used to be used by a national service but now it is a more
localized service and they cannot help you unless you live in
one of a very few states.

I am removing/replacing the text in .13 to eliminate the number.

Lee

Re: .8

Well, I wanted to throw that in there too but didn't want to get labeled
as some kind of insurance biggot (long story... I am a staunch
anti-cash-value life insurance type...).

Also, in the past few months Consumer Reports has been covering life 
insurance in detail...

Lee

Re: .14

I'll have to go re-read the info, but in insurance terms, the words
"Universal Life" has always meant a form of cash-value insurance.
"Term" means insurance only, no investment coupled with it.

Sorta like this...(pretend terms here)

"Universal Auto" or "Whole Auto" = Car insurance + investment plan
"Term Auto"                      = Car insurance (only)

Lee

>    I just tried the 1-800-buy-term number and it isn't what .9 said...is
>    there another number to call to get quotes on term insurance?
    
I got my 10 year level term through SelectQuote.  They deal with reputable
insurance companies.  Term life insurance is ALL they sell.  

(800) 343-1985

They beat my DEC insurance by >35% the first year and the premiums don't go up
every year like my DEC insurance did.  My personal need for life insurance
diminishes drastically after 10 years.  

dls

RE: .17

Thats the company I was trying to remember!!! I didn't recall the name
when I posted my previous note... I just tried the phone number that I
remembered and got the (wrong) one. I asked them if this was the number
to call to get term life quotes and the person said 'yes' so I posted
the number.

Sorry gang...

Lee

    Being a former Insurance Agency Manager it seems fair if I answer a few
    questions that have been bouncing around in this notefile.
    First you must understand the difference between Whole Life (permanent
    insurance) and Term. The primary difference is whether you want to rent
    your coverage or own it. 
    
    A simple way of an explanation is as follows: Lets say that you wish to
    purchase Term Insurance and invest the difference, as most brokers will
    have you do(commissions)? And lets say that the Term insurance is
    costing you $1.00. So sometime in the future you can turn around and say
    that you gave an insurance company $10,000 dollars and you are getting 
    nothing back. (However, you did have it when it was needed such as the
    years you needed a larger sum of insurance during the time you were
    raising children etc.
    
    Take the question of Whole Life, That same policy amount now costs you
    $20,000 dollars instead of the $10,000 for term, but, someday in the
    future you will have $40,000+ coming back to you in the form of savings.
    Maybe this the time you wish to convert your insurance to an annuity
    and give you a lifetime income, that you cannot outlive. You wish to
    make an addition to your home, the money is available, usually at
    about a five to eight percent annual loan rate.
    
    The reason that a loan interest rate is charged is because the insurance
    has assumed in their guaranteed cash value that they would receive all
    the payments due to keep the policy intact and make future payments that
    the policy has promised. You see, if you loan cash from your policy and
    say that the policy was a $100,000 dollar death benefit and took out
    $5,000 as a loan and you pass away your family would receive $100,000
    less the $5,000 you loaned, or $95,000 and the loan has been paid-up.
    
    Take another point of view. Lets say that you wanted to take your money
    and invest it in a bank portfolio. Your intention is to save that same
    $40,000 as you received from the insurance company. Obviously, if you
    made four monthly deposits in the bank at $40.00 dollars per month and
    you died, your family would receive a total of $160.00 vs $100,000.
    
    In conclusion, with a Mutual Insurance Company, If you die your family
    receives what you intended to leave them in your plans, if you become
    disabled then the company makes all of the payments (after six months)
    due on the policy and the plan stays in contact just as if you paid for
    it, and if you return to work at some point later you can forget the
    money the company paid on your behalf i.e. "Disability Waiver of Premium"
    If you live, a great sum of money is yours in the future. Believe me,
    Insurance is not the best investment in the world, however, not bad if
    you have not the funds to establish the needs you have in cash and have
    a family to protect not only during your earning years but also at death.

    I just purchased a $200,000 term life insurance policy for $226 per
    year.  Cigna will cost me $520 for same thing. Some benefit!
    
    Also - previously Accident Insurance was a free benefit, was it not? Now
    we have to pay for it?  I have heard/read that death by accident is
    extremely rare and thus insurance agencies offer it cheap.  I have free
    accident insurance with my VISA credit card.
    
    This new insurance "benefit" does not seem so beneficial, to me at
    least.                  
    
     

    .20>I have free accident insurance with my VISA credit card.
    
    I believe that if you check the fine print, you'll find that the
    coverage is only in effect if you happen to die in an accident, while
    traveling in a commercial vehicle, and you paid for the fare on the
    transport with said VISA card.
    
    Harry
    

    re .19
    
    God, you sound like an insurance agent.  They follow you everywhere.
    
    

    i also like cigna insurance. the other day this moron did a u turn
    in front of me without making a sign or any thing, and i hit him vendor
    pender on the side of his pick up, i only have liability insurance,
    so i had to ask his insurance to pay to fix my car because it was not
    my fault, and his insurance was cigna. they paid the money quickly,
    they send the inspector to check out the damage to my poor car, and 
    i send it to the GM dealer and got the check in the mail one week
    after. 

    this is the first time i deal with insurance companies because iam 
    a good driver, but i liked the way they handled it.

    \nasser

>     I just purchased a $200,000 term life insurance policy for $226 per
>     year.  Cigna will cost me $520 for same thing. Some benefit!

In this case, the higher rates is caused by Digital's policy of having
open enrollment in 1994.  That means the employees with terminal illness
(See the 1993 Digital annual report for an example) can enroll without
evidence of good health.  In this case, Digital's open enrollment policy
results in a higher cost.  Only the other hand, how would employees feel
if a medical examine were required? 


>     Also - previously Accident Insurance was a free benefit, was it not? Now
>     we have to pay for it?  I have heard/read that death by accident is
>     extremely rare and thus insurance agencies offer it cheap.  I have free
>     accident insurance with my VISA credit card.

The accidently insurance is IN ADDITION to Group life insurance. 

The financially conservative wisdom is that your family should be 
adequately protected against the wage earner's death - accidently or
otherwise.

Gim

    re:.24
    
    The last note *seems* to be saying that the GUL offered by CIGNA covers
    you only if you "croak" by non-accidental means. WRONG! I called them
    because I thought that too. They said the "personal accident policy" is
    merely "extra" coverage and that the plain old life insurance policy
    covers you no matter how you "depart".
    
    Ken

    The first time I read through the literature I also got the impression
    that I cannot purchase insurance for my dependents unless I too
    purchase insurance.  That is different than the current plan.
    
    karen

> The accidently insurance is IN ADDITION to Group life insurance. 
> 
> The financially conservative wisdom is that your family should be 
> adequately protected against the wage earner's death - accidently or
> otherwise.


Let me restate this: the benefits from accidental death insurance is
in addition to the benefits of the Group Life insurance.  

But is accidental insurance wise? Shouldn't the family be covered
regardless of how one dies?   If so, accidental death insurance is
not necessary.

Some other notes:  

1. here's an example where the equal rights laws are helping men.
   The average death rate per 1,000 for white males age 30 is  1.69.
   The number for women is 0.61. (Source: Vital Statistics of the US,
   table 107).  By my math, the life insurance rate for women should
   be less than half of men.

2. Assuming zero admin costs and zero profits for Cigna, the rate
   for a 30 year old should be $.1125 per month vs $0.08 for Cigna.
   The implication here is that the death rate for Digital employees
   cover by the plan is lower than the US average.

Gim

    	Remember, you don't have to die to collect on accident insurance,
    but you do have to die to collect any sort of death insurance. So, say,
    you're walking across the Mill parking lot and a VAX 9000 comes flying
    out a window and lands on top of you. It crushes your whole body except
    for your head. You're still alive...a living head. You won't collect on
    any life insurance, but you could collect a hefty sum from accident
    insurance and really live it up. Your head could rest comfortably in
    the Carribean for a long time (and you'll potentially be collecting LTD
    payments too).

RE: .28 

>>    insurance and really live it up. Your head could rest comfortably in
>>    the Carribean for a long time (and you'll potentially be collecting LTD
>>    payments too).

and then get caught in the next TFSO snafu.  ;-)

    RE: .29
    
    Yeah, gotta get that headcount down.  :-)
    
    

    	Sounds like it's better to quit while you're ahead.

re:       <<< Note 2694.29 by GENRAL::KILGORE "Cherokee and Proud of It!" >>>

>>>				     (and you'll potentially be collecting LTD
>>>    payments too).
>
>and then get caught in the next TFSO snafu.  ;-)

I think I asked this once before in another string, but don't recall if it
got answered. Is it not the case that LTD is a benefit that we pay for
individually and that it cannot be terminated by the company by TFSOing an
individual (as opposed to STD which is company covered and not contributed
to by the individual)? My thought was that as long as you are on LTD and
cannot physically return to work, you continue to receive LTD benefits up
to age 65.

I also have a CIGNA question -

This weekend I received the open enrollment package including a "worksheet".
The second item in section 2 speaks about a "premium refund" and offers the
choice of rolling it over into a cash accumulation fund or having a check
mailed to you.
   1) Are they seriously saying that you have an option to have this chunk
      of change sent to you?
   2) What's the tax status of this money, if so?
   3) Does this represent the premiums we've paid for optional life ins.
      over the years under the previous plan?
   4) Why are we entitled to get it back? (Not that I'm complaining. :^)

-Jack

    re: .32
    
    Your CIGNA questions appear to have been answered in 2739.104, included
    below.
    
    John
    
              <<< MORTAL::$1$DIA1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< The Digital way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 2739.104     Health Care/Life Insurance Premiums Go Up!!!        104 of 110
AYRPLN::ERVIN "Roots & Wings"                        24 lines  29-OCT-1993 14:36
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Carl,
    
    This is not a cash for opt out sort of thing.  A couple weeks ago we
    got the glossy benefits bulletins delivered at work.  From the
    bulletin (pg. 7)
    
    "Return of Claim Stabilization Reserve Premium"
    
    Those employees participating in the current optional life insurance
    program as of August 17, 1993, will be eligible for a premium refund
    from John Hancock.  Because of our positive experience in the optional
    life policy, an excess premium has built up over several years.
    
    If you are eligible, the amouont you receive will be a percentage of
    the total premium you paid under the current program.  Factors
    affecting your refund include the number of years of your participation
    in the program, the option chosen, and your salary..... the refund will
    not be taxable.
    
    FYI, I was in the insurance plan for about 3 years at 5x my salary and
    only within the last 2 years or so dropped back to 1x my
    salary...mainly because I purchased a whole life insurance/retirement
    plan from an external insurance vendor.
    
    

>> I think I asked this once before in another string, but don't recall if it
>> got answered. Is it not the case that LTD is a benefit that we pay for
>> individually and that it cannot be terminated by the company by TFSOing an
>> individual (as opposed to STD which is company covered and not contributed
>> to by the individual)? My thought was that as long as you are on LTD and
>> cannot physically return to work, you continue to receive LTD benefits up
>> to age 65.

RE: 2694.32

Not so.  I know a couple people person that was on LTD, both of them gone.  A 
friend who has MS and unable to work, TFSO'd while out on LTD.  Doesn't seem
right, but they do TFSO people that are on LTD.

Judy

re: -1

I think the point was that the LTD benefit cannot be terminated by TFSO, not 
that the company can't TFSO someone out on LTD.

Not to start a rathole, but what's "right" about terminating an employee who 
can work to save someone who can't?

I don't think there are any clear-cut answers...

Al

I agree with Al that it makes little sense to keep a permanently disabled
(and unable to work) individual on the payroll at the expense of a productive
employee's job.

Are we clear that the LTD benefits (which aren't actually payroll, unlike
STD) are non-interruptible? Since an individual out on LTD isn't formally
"on the payroll" (more like on an unpaid LOA with income from another
source), I guess the only drawback to TFSO for them is if they should
someday recover and be able to once again return to work.

-Jack

    
    Re: .32
    
    Hi Jack,
    
    Yes, we will either get the money sent to us in a check or can have it
    applied to the cash accumulation option of the new CIGNA plan.  It is
    not taxable since it is simply a refund of part of the life insurance
    premiums we paid to John Hancock with already taxed dollars.  To put it
    plainly, we get it because over the course of the contract life, fewer
    of the insured died than would have been expected based on actuarial
    tables.
    
    Re: LTD
    
    LTD eligibility is not dependent on whether you are still employed.
    It is an insurance contract.  If you go out on LTD while employed
    and are TFSO'D while out, your coverage under the LTD plan continues
    AS LONG AS you remain disabled according to the definition of disabled
    used by the plan.
    
    Steve
    

    Haven't gotten my "kit" from CIGNA yet. I called 'em and they say to
    call them back if I don't get it by Friday.  They didn't care at all
    when I said  "but open enrollment started Monday"
    
    Ken

    
    The open enrollment is from Nov 1 to Nov 19 by telephone is available
    23 hours a day and the number is toll free.
    
    Steve
    

	Real Rate of Return ??

	I attended a CIGNA presentation this week and was confused
	about what the CIGNA representative was trying to sell us
	regarding the Cash Accumulation Fund.  He was trying to claim 
	that the 1994 return was guaranteed to be 7%.  

	I explained to him that after we pay the mandatory 2% state premium
	tax of 2% on every dollar that we contribute to the fund that 
	we would net less than a 5% return to our wallets (or pocketbooks).

	He claimed that I had it wrong and that some engineers had worked
	it out to be a true 7% or slightly under.  Can anyone work these
	numbers to back up his claim because I couldn't.

	My Simple Example ...	Contribute ...  $100 one time 1994
				2% Load Charge  $ -2
						-----
						$ 98 in fund before interes
						$ +6.86 (7% * $98)	
						-------
						$104.86 at year end
						=======
						 4.86% Real Return on$100
	?????
	Phil

 (Reposted from DIGITAL_INVESTING - hoping for a response here)

    First, a very elementary question: The basic CIGNA GUL
    (Group Universal Life) is really a term-life policy, right ? 

    Second, has anyone compared the CIGNA rates with the IEEE rates ?
    Here are my calculations.

    CIGNA:
    =====

    250K for myself -- $300  (35-39 - rate is $0.10 per 1000 per month)
    100K for wife   -- $ 96  (30-34 - rate is $0.08 per 1000 per month)

    Annual Cost = $396

    This does not include Accident Insurance or disability waiver, How
    much more will they cost and are they worth it ?


    IEEE (offered by New York Life)
    ====
    
    250K for myself -- $200  (35-39 - rate is $4 per 10,000 per 6 months)
    100K for wife   -- $ 56  (30-34 - rate is $1.40 per 5000 per 6 months)

    Annual Cost = $256 + IEEE membership fee
    
    I think this does include Accident Insurance and disability waiver,
    but the information I have is not very recent. Could someone confirm ?

    Also could someone tell me the exact amount for the IEEE membership fee.
    I have heard someone mention $117/year. 

    Also, should we take anything else into account to make this comparison
    more accurate ?
    
    Thanks,

    Ram    

RE: -.1

Yes, there is something else to take into account.  When I was last a
member of IEEE, the insurance turned down a significant number of
applicants.  This was one of the reasons I and others left IEEE.

Lew

    
    Re: .41
    
    > First, a very elementary question: The basic CIGNA GUL
    > (Group Universal Life) is really a term-life policy, right ? 
    
    No, it is not term insurance.  Term insurance by definition
    is insurance that covers you for a specified period of time.
    10 years, 20 years, etc.  The CIGNA Group Universal Life
    policy does not expire.  You can take it with you if you leave
    Digital or if you retire.  All you have to do is pay the premium.
    If you do that, when you die they'll pay your beneficiary.
    
    Steve
     

    I have term insurance through Amica, and just like the Cigna insurance,
    so long as I keep paying I'm still insured.
    
    I think what most people mean by "term insurance" is, does it have a
    cash value?  As far as I can tell, the basic Cigna insurance doesn't,
    it is just insurance against injury and death.  

>    I think what most people mean by "term insurance" is, does it have a
>    cash value?  As far as I can tell, the basic Cigna insurance doesn't,
>    it is just insurance against injury and death.  


        Term: Protection for a specific period of time. No cash savings
              plan. Can be "renewable term" (i.e. pay higher rate and
              you can renew your policy) or "non-renewable term" (when
              policy period ends, it is over & done).

        Whole life: Protection as long as you pay the premiums. Cash
              values guaranteed in the table that accompanies the policy.
              Cash values can be *negative* for the first few years of
              the policy.

        Universal life: Protection as long as you pay the premiums, Cash
              return to at least be "%X", which may be somthing like
              %4. You may get a lot, you may get some, but the rate
              of return is guaranteed to be at least %X.

              After cash accumulates, you may use it to pay the premiums.
              If the cash amount in the policy ever reaches $0, the
              policy self-destructs.
        
        Note: Some (many?) cash value polices have nasty 'surrender
              charges' for the first 5, 10, even 15 years. This evil
              practice attempts to guarantee that you will not cancel
              the policy early and get your cash out.

  Regarding .42

> Yes, there is something else to take into account.  When I was last a
> member of IEEE, the insurance turned down a significant number of
> applicants.  This was one of the reasons I and others left IEEE.

For that very reason, the life insurance premiums are among
the lowest.  On the other hand, the Digital rates are, in my
view still among the highest because:


From:	NAME: U S Benefits                  
	FUNC: U.S. Personnel                  
	TEL:                                  <USBENFITS AT A1 at SALES at MRO>
To:	See Below


  During this year's Open Enrollment from November 1 to 19, you can make 
  changes to your medical, dental, and reimbursement account coverages.  
  You can also, for 1993 only, change your life insurance coverage 
  without evidence of good health.
  -------------------------------

    I, too, am in a quandry.  I have compared Term Life Insurance rates
    from other companies and CIGNA is NOT COMPETITIVE.  TOO COSTLY.
    
    So, what is the advantage of staying with CIGNA.  Somebody convince me
    why I should stay with CIGNA.
    
    Decision time is this week.

These are the reasons for staying with Cigna:

1.  You have not compared rates and stay because
    of ignorance.

2.  The cost doesn't matter or you like the convenience
    of having the premiums deducted automatically.

3.  You are in poor health and would not qualify for
    term insurance outside of Digital.

4.  You feel a moral obligation to help support the CIGNA
    plan and thus stay in the plan for the greater good.

Gim

re: .48

You forgot a very good reason:

5.  You expect less people in the DEC coverage pool will die than in another
    pool and you're hoping that the excess money will be sent back to those
    with the foresight to be in the CIGNA plan.

Chuck ;-)

re Note 2694.47 by AKOCOA::RONDINA:

>     I, too, am in a quandry.  I have compared Term Life Insurance rates
>     from other companies and CIGNA is NOT COMPETITIVE.  TOO COSTLY.
  
        What percentage differences are you seeing?

        Bob

     On a side note, I was reading an article about several organizations
which were donating money to help Sen. Packwood to defend himself against
the mass of sexual harrassment charges he has accumulated, and CIGNA was
among the donors.

                                      Greg

Regarding .46

>  Regarding .42

>> Yes, there is something else to take into account.  When I was last a
>> member of IEEE, the insurance turned down a significant number of
>> applicants.  This was one of the reasons I and others left IEEE.

>For that very reason, the life insurance premiums are among
>the lowest.  On the other hand, the Digital rates are, in my
>view still among the highest because:


No argument.  Just want to let anyone contemplating IEEE insurance 
know that it would be a good idea to apply and get acceptance 
before letting go of other options.  I should have added that I
also know of people staying in IEEE for the insurance only.

Lew

I asked Met Life what their rates were, and they said that they could
not beat CIGNA's DEC rates - their rates were almost identical, provided
you do not smoke.   If you smoke, the rates double.

Then I called SelectQuote and they are mailing me several quotes.  When
I asked, "do any of these companies require a medical exam" the answer
was "they all do".   So I expect lower rates.

    I will purchase $200,000 Term LIfe Insurance for an annual cost of
    $261.00.  CIGNA's cost for same thing is $504.  You can see why I can't
    come up with a good reason to stay with CIGNA.
    Is CIGNA costly because it is a whole life policy (new name is
    Universal Life, but still is the same.)?

The CIGNA "optional spouse insurance", if purchased in the range $40K-$100K,
asks for the Spouse's SSN (social security number).

Can one ask for an alternate and/or refuse to supply the SSN (and still
get the insurance)?

Bob

    .55
    >> ..."optional spouse insurance"...
    
    I didn't know you could have an optional spouse. :-)

    They need/want the SSN so they can check with the Medical Information
    Bureau to see if you're telling the truth on those two questions. 
    Most insurance companies share access to old claims through the Medical
    Information Bureau.  If your insurance company uses your SSN, other
    insurance companies will have a much easier time finding out about your
    medical history.  You can get a copy of the file MIB keeps on you by 
    writing to Medical Information Bureau, P.O. Box 105, Essex Station, 
    Boston, MA 02112.  Their phone number is (617)426-3660.

re Note 2694.57 by AWECIM::MCMAHON:

>     They need/want the SSN so they can check with the Medical Information
>     Bureau to see if you're telling the truth on those two questions. 
>     Most insurance companies share access to old claims through the Medical
>     Information Bureau.  

        Actually, I knew why they want it.

        What I don't know is if they can legally require me to supply
        it in order to obtain their product (insurance).

        Actually, the telephone prompting system allows a special
        response if your spouse doesn't have a SSN.  Could insurance
        be denied if you took that option but your spouse did indeed
        have a SSN?

        Bob

    I thought it was more of a rhetorical question but it gave me a chance
    to tell people about the MIB and how to find out about what it has on
    them ;-).
    
    P@

    Any thoughts about how much life insurance a single person with
    no dependents needs?  I was recently in a conversation where someone
    was insisting none, someone was insisting "a lot", and I was thinking
    "the minimum amount necessary to die and be disposed of gracefully".
    
    Pros and cons?
    
    Thanks.

Holly,

I think that the answer is, "how much do you hate your family?"  :-) :-)

In all seriousness, if you want to stick someone else with the entire tab of
dealing with you after you're gone, you don't need any.  The people handling
your entry into the afterlife will have to pay for funeral costs and other
expenses.  They get the money back from the estate, eventually.  The costs are
basically funeral expenses (4-10K,) transportation for "home town burrial"
(0-2K,) plot or crematorium costs (0-15K) estate expenses such as disposing
of personal property (.5-5K,) bonds against any stock certificates, etc.
(~25% of amount not kept in brokerage accounts,) and a few things I've
probably forgotten.  Then, on top of that, there are lawyer, executor, and
court fees.  The lawyer usually gets 10% and the executor gets 5% commission.
So, it ain't cheap to die -- just don't do it :-)

You can reduce the costs to others by prepaying your funeral and other costs,
but that is the equivalent of giving someone else an interest free loan until
your family needs it.  Most states allow you to designate a tax-free "burrial
account" up to some pre-determined amount (up to, say 5K) that your next of kin
can have access to immediately, lowering insurance costs and reducing
out-of-pocket expenses.  The burial fund won't cover everything, but gives your
survivors some working room without financially straining themselves.

In general, I believe that, if you are single and unattached, you want to
have enough insurance to take care of the necessies and have a little money
left over for the party.  That works out to between one and two times your
salary, less any contingency funds set up.  Remember that most of the costs are 
reimbursed eventually if you had enough money to cover thinsg when you go.

If you put 5K in your burial fund and prepay the funeral and other costs, you
won't need any insurance.  You are basically self-insuring.

I just went through this with an inter-state death of an elderly relative and
I'm in the "hole" a good piece of change, which I dont' expect back for
another 9 months.

BobW                                

    > I think that the answer is, "how much do you hate your family?"  :-)
    >  :-)
    
    Took me a minute to parse this; I thought you were referring to my
    personal name.  Sigh.
    
    ------
    You confirm my suspicion -- enough to die and be disposed of
    gracefully with all the proper people being paid off.  1x the salary
    should do that quite adequately...
    
    Here's another question.  Suppose elderly relative X dies with a
    reasonable estate, but no money anyone can access for several months.
    Suppose the single heir/responsible person/executor is unemployed, or a
    student, or poor with no savings.  
    
    Who pays?  I assume that elderly relative X is not forced to wait for
    burial until the heir can raise the money.  Can the estate be
    tapped prematurely or borrowed against in a case like this?
    
    Just curious.
    
    

	It might be a similar situation to that in the UK.

	If no-one agrees to pay for the funeral, the state picks up the bill.

	The state does try to get away with this, however, by ensuring anyone
	who makes a will has a bit in there about deductions funeral expenses
	(you have to remember to get this default removed), and by asking
	people at bedsides in hospital, if they or the family will take care 
	of the funeral.

	So bottom line is.......you need nothing.
    
	My mum has sworn us to say "no" if we are asked this, and ensure she
	has a state-paid funeral, so any money she has left we can use in
	getting the family together to celebrate her life, not paying for a 
	funeral.

	Heather

    
    
    Sticking the taxpayers to pay for a funeral.  I don't know about all
    this.
    

>    Sticking the taxpayers to pay for a funeral.  I don't know about all
>    this.


I think most people have paid enough National Insurance and Taxes 
themselves to feel justified in having a bit back that no-one can argue
about when they go. 

>    Sticking the taxpayers to pay for a funeral.  I don't know about all
>    this.

	Actually, you have this the wrong way around.

	We pay for a governemnt that still links church and state, so, it's
	a state responsibility.........unless they can stick the costs onto the
	estate, which they try to do at every opportunity.


	Heather

    
    >	We pay for a governemnt that still links church and state.
    
    Cripes, did the disestablishmentarianism acts get revoked? I
    that means being chapel, if I die penniless they'll have to
    put me out with the garbage like Great Grandpa.

    
    Re: .67
    
    I think the person who wrote that is not a US citizen.  In
    Great Britain, the Church of England is formally recognized
    by the government.
    
    Steve
    

    
    > I think the person who wrote that is not a US citizen.  In
    > Great Britain, the Church of England is formally recognized
    > by the government.
    
    Neither am I.  The Brit Gov't may `recognize' the Church of England,
    but England isn't Britain.  The C of E has no such status in Scotland
    or Wales.  In Wales the church was formally disestablished around 1913,
    I don't think it ever was an estate under Scottish law.
    
    C

There was (last year?) some talk of disestablishing the C of E
in England as well. Ever-declining church attendance amongst
christians -- or declining numbers of people identifying themselves
as christian, I forget which -- mean that the church no longer
has much claim to be representative of anything.

Even some members of the C of E hierarchy supported this move.

    For someone single, and in good health, there is actually one other
    reason to obtain more insurance than you might otherwise need for
    last rites ...
    
    If you plan to get married in a few years, then it might be a good
    idea to obtain insurance incase for some reason or another you become
    uninsurable (unable to obtain additional insurance) in the interim ...
    heart problems ... who knows ...
    
    In that case, while you might live for ever, you might not be able
    to purchase the insurance you need for your wife and family.
    
    This is also where insurance plans with guaranteed insurability are
    useful for those early policies....
    
    Stuart

    Weren't U.S. employees supposed to get a CIGNA mailing some time
    in October ?

    yes. I got mine about a week ago.
    
    - Richard.

I called CIGNA and asked them about this..
The original mailing was scheduled for the week of Oct 17
but the representative said that they were actually mailed
during the week of 24th...

But I still haven't seen anything yet ?
Phil
-----------------------------------------------------------------
attached...
From:	NAME: U S Benefits                  
	FUNC: U.S. Personnel                  
	TEL:                                  <USBENFITS AT A1 at SALES at 
MRO>
To:     See Below

  LIFE INSURANCE CERTIFICATE MAILING
  
  On January 1, 1994, Connecticut General Life Insurance Company, a 
  CIGNA company became Digital's new life insurance carrier.  During the 
  week of October 17, CIGNA will be mailing to your home the life 
  insurance certificate(s) for the life insurance program(s) you 
  participate in.
  
  If you participate in Group Universal Life (GUL) or Personal Accident 
  Insurance (PAI), a personalized verification of coverage sheet 
  detailing your coverage will accompany these certificates.  Your 
  Personal Identification Number (PIN) will also be listed on the 
  verification of coverage sheets.  When you call CIGNA to access your 
  life insurance information, you must provide your PIN to the CIGNA 
  representative.
  
  If you have any questions concerning your coverage, please call the 
  CIGNA Customer Service Center at 1-800-828-3485 or 1-800-336-2485 (TDD 
  for hearing impaired).  The center is available Monday through Friday, 
  between 8:00 a.m. and 6:00 p.m. EST.
  
  BE SURE TO PLACE THESE LIFE INSURANCE CERTIFICATES IN A SAFE PLACE.  
  THEY WILL NOT BE REISSUED.
  
  

I just called Cigna ...
The last of the mailings went out on Nov 4th
allowing 2 weeks for third class mail she said everyone
should receive the certificates by Nov. 18

Phil

    
    
    I received the mailing yesterday; however, my PIN was not enclosed.
    After all the fuss about making sure we got the PIN and certificates,
    and kept them in a safe place, etc., I was carefull to check for it.
    According to the cover letter, the PIN is included on the "Coverage
    Verifications Page.  I rec'd no such page.
    
    I talked to the CIGNA rep. today; she says she will mail out a
    substitute to me.  However, she also said that there was no error in
    the mailing; the Coverage Verification page is only mailed to people
    who selected more than the basic coverage paid for by Digital.  The
    cover letter is, thus, quite confusing.  I asked how people with the
    basic coverage were supposed to be informed of their PIN.  She said
    that she would mail it to me; I guess they'll be getting a lot of phone
    calls...
    
    Kaizad