Conference 7.286::digital

   They seem to be in about the same shape as some of the other engineering 
   facilities at this moment in time, if you know what I mean.  

   On the side, I understand DEC West has announced plans to acquire a farm
   near the town of Bothell, Washington some 15 miles north of their current
   facilities in Bellevue.  The plans are for a 150,000 square feet facility 
   by 1991 and a total of 850,000 square feet (five buildings) by about 2005.  
   With an employment of 300 in 1991 moving to 2,350 by 2005.

   This information is a little old, maybe someone else could fill me in 
   on whats been happening lately.  

   A_curious_ex-Washingtonian_displaced_to_Massachusetts,
   Bob

    Re: 604.1
    
    The fact that Dave Cutler has resigned is the WHAT.
    
    Now, how about the HOW, the WHEN and the WHERE did he go? 
    
    This is big, big news, on par with the exit of Gordon Bell, maybe
    bigger!  Do we have to wait to read about it in "Digital Review?"
    It will be big time in all of them!
    
    Look at all of the source code headers for RSX, VMS and perhaps
    earlier.  This company probably would not be what it is today without
    him.  Do I exagerrate? 

    Fred

          <<< HUMAN::DISK$HUMAN_WRKD:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIGITAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 581.55       Will senior employees' departure affect DEC?          55 of 55
COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert"                      22 lines  11-AUG-1988 22:43
                          -< Vom Westen nichts neues >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just my opinion:

In most cases, before an employee senior enough to have a real effect by leaving
actually leaves, DEC will have already changed enough to make that employee's
contribution no longer appropriate for the company's working style.

Thirteen years ago, about the same time that I came to work here, a good
employee was one who took charge, did things on his own initiative, and
demonstrated how to do things -- often in direct opposition to what much
of management thought they wanted.

A person successful at that style of working had to have certain characteristics
--- maybe extremely smart, maybe extremely hard-working, not necessarily a
combination of both.  Our two most successful operating sytems were built by
this type person.

But today, the company seems to want a different kind of employee -- and the
environment no longer allows that kind of person to succeed.  So he leaves,
and in leaving, even though he may be one of the most senior people in the
company, he has little effect, because the company has already changed.

/john

        RE: 604.2

        It's the way rumors work through an organization. Whether they
        have or not, someone probably said DECWEST has "bought the
        farm."

Re: .4

	John described Dave Cutler to a "T"!  Not surprising he might consider 
leaving.

I wrote 581.55 (reposted here in .4 by Vikas) about 7 hours after Jack Smith
announced Dave's decision to leave.

As for where Dave is now, I'm not privy to that information, but Jack's
announcement expressed hope that Digital and Dave would continue to have
a working relationship.

I suspect Dave is still in ELF because his accrued vacation hasn't yet run out.

DECwest can still make a significant contribution to the OSF effort -- the
changes are a clear signal that the Software Systems Group needs "team players"
and that the independent style which had previously made some people successful
is no longer appropriate at The New Digital.

/john

Re-entered to remove 100 lines of mail addresses. Hope no one minds.
    
    			Alfred - co-moderator HUMAN::DIGITAL
    
                          -< The DEC way of working >-
================================================================================
Note 604.8                     DECWEST DISBANDED?                         8 of 8
AZTECH::JARRETT                                     135 lines  31-AUG-1988 11:22
                             -< The Official Word >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 
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	id AA27044; Thu, 18 Aug 88 12:26:58 PDT
From: taylor (Bob Taylor)
Message-Id: <8808181926.AA27044@jumbo.pa.dec.com>
Date: 18 Aug 1988 1226-PDT (Thursday)
To: SRC-only
Cc: taylor
Fcc: Sent
Subject: Cutler resigns - Heinen heads DECWest
 
------- Forwarded Message
 
From:	NAME: Bill Demmer                   
	FUNC: MSB - BXB1-2/D10        
	TEL: 293-5000             <DEMMER.BILL AT A1 AT CORMTS AT CORE>
Date:	12-Aug-1988
Posted-date: 12-Aug-1988
Precedence: 1
Subject: DAVE CUTLER'S RESIGNATION
 
To:	See Below
 
I am sorry to announce that Dave Cutler has resigned from Digital 
to pursue other opportunities.
 
Dave has been with Digital for the past 17 years and has made 
several important contributions to our success.
 
Roger Heinen has accepted the responsibilities for managing 
DECwest and will begin immediately.
 
Please join me in thanking Dave for his contributions and in 
wishing him success in his career.
 
Bill
 

    Re: .3
    
>    Look at all of the source code headers for RSX, VMS and perhaps
>    earlier.  This company probably would not be what it is today without
>    him.  Do I exagerrate? 

    I am trying very hard to not say anything uncomplimentary here,
    but those who have had to maintain code that Dave has worked on
    often don't feel so warm towards him.
    
    Dave Cutler is a man of great vision.  I cannot deny that.  But
    vision alone does not quality software make.
    
    					Steve

    
    Maybe Cutler's goodbye announcement is the understatement of the
    year - better than the Plan A letter?  Did Cutler have a company
    car?
    
    Fred
    

    
    At the request of a development group, I have reeditted the original
    topic note to eliminate what might have been sensitive product
    planning information.
    
    I remind all participants that DIGITAL is a widely read conference.
    Thus, please be careful to not include confidential information or
    references.
    
    				/ conference sponsor and co-moderator
    
================================================================================
Note 604.0                     DECwest disbanded?                     10 replies
DIXIE1::RANDERSON                                    13 lines  30-AUG-1988 18:41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    
    ....  Have
    been on vacation and (sorry if I missed something)was wondering
    about the level of truthfullness to attach to all this.
    
    Even heard that D.C. has left the company.  Sorry if I'm late to
    the punch on this one, as I said I've been away a while.
    
    Can anyone clarify or respond?
    
    Thanks, 

    Excuse the learning curve here...  but WHO is/was Dave Cutler?...
    I asked my boss and he didn't know either....  why does he have
    a whole topic on his leaving in more than one conference?
    
    ADVthanksANCE
    Gale

    Dave Cutler was a Senior Corporate Consulting Engineer. One of only
    two in the company (the other is also a VP). He founded and ran
    DECwest. He was also one of the original designers/implement
    of VMS. Before that he was a big part of RSX. He is arguably the
    most senior and important *technical* person who ever left the
    company. Some might say Gordon Bell was but I'd disagree.
    
    			Alfred

        re .9 and Dave Cutlers obtuse coding style.
        
        An urban myth goes...
        
        "A customer with a source license for RSX found a segment of
        macro code, that did what it was designed to but was totally
        uncomprehensible. It had the Initials DNC (David N Cutler)
        assigned to it. The customer finally decided that DNC stood
        for "Did not Code" i.e. No one wanted to claim ownership of
        the code wqhen it came to maintaining it. 
        
        David, often looked apparently at the esoteric effiency of
        machine code, rather than the maintainability of sources...
        
        q
        

    The major rumor (10 years ago) that started my questions about DNC:

    He wrote the "major" part of RSX over a weekend or so!
    
    Less than that ago, I heard he was going to leave because he wanted
    to go west and KO built DECWEST for him.  Wasn't the microvax involved
    there?
    
    I know how much commonality there is between RSX and VMS and he had a
    hand in both.  I had the opportunity to look over the PDP8 OS about
    five years ago but do not remember if DNC was in there.  But I was
    surprised to see a lot of familiar stuff.  I would guess the same would
    be said to be true for the 36-bit stuff.  The lesson is that Rome
    wasn't built in a day and that lots of folks had a hand in it. 
    
    But, the folks that spark major changes and then make large
    contributions to the actual product are very valuable people, albeit
    probably more and more difficult to keep in the fold as the management
    structure of DEC grows in order to protect all those other jobs.

    I have never met him but I am sorry to see him go.  I wonder if
    I would be in my job if he had not passed through.  Again, do I
    exaggerate?

    Fred    

    The following is an example of DNC coding style. I found it in
    the RSX listings some years ago:
    
    FOO1:
    	MOV	(PC)+,-(SP)
    FOO2:
    	CLR	-(SP)
    	...
    	TST	(SP)+
    	BNE	10$
    	...
    10$:
    	...
    	RTS	PC
    
    He was famous for writing very tight macro code that used lots of
    esoteric tricks that weren't too well documented. Besides the above
    example I seem to remember one involving the C bit. I think it was:
    
    	...
    10$:
    	TST	(PC)+
    20$:
    	SEC
    	RTS	PC
    
    Anybody got any other examples?
    
    Dave

It was certainly easy for Dave to write major bits of RSX-11M on short order,
since he had already worked out his ideas on earlier, almost identical systems
he wrote while at Dupont before coming to DEC.

The stories about him implementing major functionality over weekends are true,
but what is behind them says a lot about his style and why that style is no
longer successful at The New Digital.

It's also important to realize that there was quite a feud going on within
Engineering at the time over the relationship between RSX-11D and RSX-11M.
11M was supposed to be an operating system for smaller machines, since 11D
was growing without bounds and not fitting on smaller systems.

In one case he was told late one week that on the following Monday or Tuesday
there would be a meeting to determine which peripherals would be supported by
RSX-11M device drivers.  At the meeting he announced that 11M already supported
most of the 11D devices.

Keyword macros were added to Macro-11 on a bet that he couldn't do it over a
weekend.

A lot of his code was obscure and hard to maintain, but don't forget to consider
the environment of the times, when the amount of time it took to execute a QIO
might be critical to a sale which was, in those days, 5% or more of our revenue.
Dave Garrod's C-bit example is a commonly used PDP-11 subroutine exit style.

/john

Several replies herein posit that this resignation is based on certain
styles no longer being acceptable or successful at what is termed "The
New Digital".

Are the writers in possession of the facts, qualified to judge them,
and authorized to present them, or is this speculation?

- greg

Re .15:

>I would guess the same would be said to be true for the 36-bit stuff.

I would hope not.
				/AHM

>Are the writers in possession of the facts, qualified to judge them,
>and authorized to present them, or is this speculation?

Many things are not "either/or," Greg.

Pure speculation it is not.  Which facts I possess is not an appropriate
discussion for this forum; whether I'm qualified to judge them is a matter
of opinion; and your question about "authorization to present them" says a
lot about "The New Digital."

/john

    .15:, .19:
    
    Our 36-bit, word-oriented (as opposed to byte-oriented) machines
    have a considerably different philosophy in certain areas, such
    as instructions to perform arithmetic or logical tests.  To write
    analogous code, you'll have to get used to the philosophy, as well
    as the instructions.
    
    Dick

re: .20

My note was poorly written John.  By "authorized" I mean do folks have the
approval of a person to reveal what might be considered private information?

I consider one's "contract" with the company to be personal information,
and job actions to be private unless the person involved specifically
makes it public with the intent of having it disseminated.  It doesn't
matter to me that they are semi-public figures;  perhaps that makes it
even more relevant.  I also consider it inappropriate to speculate
in a forum of this character about why senior people make such decisions.

I've no problem with discussing the strategies and policies they
articulate, but that is different than suggesting that "X's resignation
should be taken as indication of a corporate direction" unless it
can be backed up.

As far as "The New Digital" goes, I think that's just the name-de-jour
for a statement about DEC that seems to be asserted every six months.
It's also a statement that is made about most organizations everywhere.
Organisms, including corporations, evolve (or go extinct).

- greg

    re:  < Note 604.20 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >

    Bravo!
    
    re:  Dave Cutler and other Corporate Consultants
    
    There have been quite a few people who have asked when reading an
    annual report, "Who are these guys?" and "Why are a bunch of engineers
    listed up there with the Directors?"  It was a nice opening to explain
    Digital's unique concepts regarding individual contributors.  The very
    idea of individual contributors being important to the company seems
    to have fallen by the wayside, though.  I joined DEC mainly because
    of the opportunities available to individual contributors, both at
    Corporate and in the Field.  I was a manager with my previous employer,
    and found that it did not give me any sense of being productive.
    
    While I don't see that the days of the individual contributor have
    gone at DEC, I do see that the choices are becoming more limited,
    and the recognition is now given somewhat grudgingly.  If anyone
    has a different view on this, I would be happy to be proved wrong!
    
    Geoff

        I'd suggest that all future discussions relating to "The New
        Digital" or "individual contributors" be moved to topic 610
        so that this topic can be for DECwest and Cutler discussions.
        
       _Mike

I can't say that I ever really knew Dave Cutler, but I can
relate some impressions and rumors. I joined the VMS documentation
group in 1978 just before V1.0 came out, and Dave was one of
the key developers. 

Rumor had it that Dave was an All-American middle-linebacker
in college. Whether that was true or not, it certainly was
believable -- he came across as tough and gruff.  I don't consider
myself timid or faint-hearted, but I'm glad I never had the occasion
to have a professional confrontation with him.

Can anyone else confirm this impression of Dave? Or perhaps debunk it?
(I.e., give some "beneath that tough exterior lurked a warm guy" anecdotes?)

Re .22:

>I consider one's "contract" with the company to be personal information,
>and job actions to be private unless the person involved specifically
>makes it public with the intent of having it disseminated. 

Perhaps you're thinking of the following passage from the (online) PP&P manual:

"
Employee Privacy                                   Effective: 2-FEB-87
                                                   Section: 6.18

                                                        Screen 22 of 27
 External Disclosure Cont'd

      o Without a written release the Company will only verify
        whether an individual is/was employed by Digital, the date
        of that employment and the last current position held as
        given by caller/writer.
...
"


I consider it inappropriate to discuss the performance of individuals in this
conference.  That is the policy in another conference which often touches on
this - UCOUNT::ZKO_SUGGESTION_BOX (q.v.).  I don't think that such rules
eliminate gossip, but at least they don't encourage it.

I'm not prepared to discuss exceptions for officers, etc. because I'm not
familiar with the norms in the investment community.  I did not intend my .19
does not violate this ideal.

Re .23:

If a measure of employee recognition is the number of Corporate Consulting
Engineers listed in the Annual Report, I think you'd find that the list has
grown quite a bit over the past few years, even taking the total number of
employees into account. I don't have the numbers at hand, though.
				/AHM

    Re: .13 
    
    There were three Senior Corporate Consulting Engineers in the Company.
    Dave Cutler's departure leaves two - Mike Riggle and Bill Strecker.

re: .26, yep, agree

- g

re. .26
    
    I worked for Dave at DECwest for three years, and I learned a
    lot.
    
    Yes, beneath that tough exterior lurked a warm guy and a good,
    decent person to work for. He went to bat for his people, and
    he gave credit and visibility where both were due. In the office
    he was all business, outside it he was totally accessible and
    very pleasant to be around. Anyone at DECwest could sit down
    and have a beer with Dave -- and talk about anything but work.
        
    Dave wrote tight code. The initial design center for the
    11/780 allowed for 64K of main memory. Guys who were bright
    and valuable when they worked here don't become something else
    just because they've decided to move on. 
    
    Dave was not always a diplomat -- sideways or upward. Dave does have
    good technical and market vision -- and did spend time talking
    directly to DIGITAL's customers (the users doing the computing,
    not necessarily the executives.) I think Dave wanted to be left 
    alone to engineer, when DECwest needed someone to politic and
    work the consensus. Its too bad both sides couldn't come to
    an accomodation.
    
    My guess is that Roger Heinen will be good for DECwest also.
    
       John
                         
           
    
    Note: these are the opinions of the author. Your mileage may vary.
    My experiences, overall, were good ones.

    It's hard to read these notes and deal with the person attacks
    on those who have made significatant contributions to DIGITAL.
    They might be interesting personalities, but where would we
    be without them:
    
    
    	o  Gordon Bell - PDP-11
    
    	o  Dave Cutler - RSX/VMS - MicroVax-I
    
    	o  Alan Kotok - KA10, KI10, KL10, Venus (86x0)
    
    
    Can anyone add others?
    

    
    	Dave Cutler also led the VAX/ELN effort and the
    		development of the PLI and C compilers.
    
    	I have had the good fortune to work for Dave for 6 years
    	and feel that while Steve and others may be having problems
    	supporting some of his code (why I dont know, most of his work
    	is very well documented) they should remember if it wasn't for
    	Dave and people like him there would be nothing for them to
    	support.
    	
    

Re .30 (and indirectly some others) -  I hope nobody took my
.25 as a "personal attack." I'm sure Dave made major
contributions to DEC, and I was pretty sure there must be
dimensions of his work style and personality that I never
got the chance to see. I'm glad that .29 was able to give
a clearer picture than I got.

Sure, Dave was an "interesting personality," as were many
others who made DEC what it is today. In fact, I'd consider
that phrase a compliment in the cases of our technical "folk 
heroes" (and Dave seems to have joined that elite group).

    
    .26-
    
    The manager of my department (my supervisor's manager)
    was just named Corperate Cunsultiong Engeneer 
    (we're called HPS Research & Advanced Development this month, I
    think), and Digital this week stated that he was the 13th CCE/SCCE,
    which would mean there are now 12 - 2 Senior CCEs and 10 CCEs,

    
    DEW

Dave Cutler was one of the few Engineering people in Digital I knew of 
before I joined the company (10 years ago). I worked for a customer who 
used RSX, and as the executive was distributed as source code, one could 
peruse Dave's code.  The sort of thing he would shoot for was very well 
revealed by the RSX-11M V2 release, where comments such as "Remove two 
instructions from I/O completion processing." was typical.

I remember that a fellow employee used Dave's coding style as a model for 
how to write in MACRO-11.

One story I heard after joining Digital was that when stand-alone debug 
time was booked on a sign-up sheet Dave would walk into the lab when his 
time started, and if the previous user hadn't finished, the system power 
would summarily be switched off.

I never met Dave.  The closest I saw him was a pointed finger and the 
comment "that guy is Dave Cutler" spoken in awe/terror.

He would bet with people on technical issues.  I know someone who foolishly 
had a $100 bet with Dave and lost.  That person no longer bets!

jb

    
    	No one in this topic has mentioned the fact that as of 6-Sep-1988
    	DECwest Hardware Engineering WAS disbanded. The work the group
        was doing is being relocated to the East. It was a "business
    	decision" to do so. Was it a direct result of Dave's departure?
    	Is it a short sighted decision? Will good people be lost?
    	My feeling is yes, yes, and yes.
     

    SHEESH, it would be a disaster if the hardware types were allowed
    to leave! I mean the uVAX I was designed there - and in a very short
    time! What has happened to the Company's responsiblity to its
    employees?
    
    How much of the company's revenues are due to uVAX and workstation
    sales? I mean, DECWest STARTED it all - uVAXen that is. 
    
    Has DEC gotten so large that it no longer needs INDIVIDUALS????
    

    It does appear that someone in corporate 'goofed again'??

    
    	I must add that everyone at DECwest who was in hardware has been 
    	offered the opportunity to continue and bring to fruition the 
    	current project that had been started in Bellevue. This obviously
    	means relocating to the East Coast. DECwest Software Engineering 
    	is not affected.

RE: .36... The uVAX II was designed on the West Coast. The uVAX II CPU
was designed in Hudson MA, and in many ways is a reduced version of
the VAX 8200 CPU. 

RE: .37...  
I also have heard rumors (underline:  RUMORS) of a possible coming
de-emphasis of hardware development in DEC.  Though I have little
data, the ideas I have heard may merit some discussion here.  Its
possible that the elimination of hardware work from DECWest and
Germany is just the beginning of a 'slimming down' in this area, as
the company refocuses on software, and perhaps encourages hw people to
seek opportunities in sw. 

This confuses me.  I thought (no disrespect intended) that our
hardware (and particularly our CPUs) were the "razors" which we needed
to sell in order to make our money on the "blades" (peripherals, sw,
and F/S).  The media has published reports of our basing some new 
generations of formerly VAX-based products on external vendors' CPUs, 
and of course, of the push to UNIX.  

DEC's roots are in supplying the best raw hardware, at a great 
price/performance ratio.  Wouldn't it be ironic if DEC was working
towards no longer being a competitor in this business? 

	/j

    Re .39
    
    .36 said that the UVax I was designed on the west coast not the
    UVax II.
    
    Dave

    Large parts of the MicroVAX I were done by Silicon Compilers Inc.
    
    			Steve

    RE: .41
    You can choose to like or dislike anyone you want, but this is a
    widely read forum so please stick to the facts.
    
    I was the CPU designer on the MicroVAX 1. The facts as I remember
    them were:
    
    Dave was the leader of the group which consisted of 6 people
    this was as well as his work on VAXELN.
    
    The goal was to get a QBUS VAX to the market in 18 months.
    We could not get a VAX to fit on a couple of quad modules without
    some custom silicon.
    We did not think we could design a complicated chip in this time.
    We decided to design a chip containing as much of the data path
    as possible but to reduce risk we left the control logic off chip.
    Gordon Bell introduced us to Silicon Compilers and suggested we
    have them do the chip.
    We, DEC, did the block diagram, wrote the specification, and wrote
    a simulation model for the chip. We gave these to SCI, who then
    took our specs and made the chip, changing how multiply worked in
    the process. First pass chips were functional, we fixed MUL in
    microcode.
    Dave Cutler wrote all the microcode for both the CPU and the memory
    controller, by himself, in less than a year. He also wrote a VAX instruction
    test and a memory management test because the existing tests were
    too complicated to run on our simulator. 
    After we got the system to run these tests it took less than a week
    to boot VMS and 3 days of that time were spent fixing the RQDX disk
    controller which had never met a VAX before.
    
    We found a single microcode bug in field test (EDIV..-(sp),(sp)) since
    then only one other bug has been found in a bizarre case of ACBD
    and ACBG.  Every other VAX has had many more microcode bugs.
    
    I have worked in DEC for 15 years and in engineering for over 12
    of those. I have worked with some amazing people, but I have met
    no one else like Dave. His ability to understand the entire system
    from the highest level to the pickiest little detail is mind-blowing.
     Dave is also one of the hardest working people you will ever meet,
    when he's at work he works, period.
     Dave led the development of VMS and RSX11M, it will be interesting
    to see if DEC will ever develop software more sucessful than these.
                                       
    Yeah, I guess this is a bit of a flame... 
    
    Rob

    It is too bad that DECwest is apparently being downsized,
    since it is in an ideal location for an Engineering facility.
    Seattle is the only city on the West Coast which 1) has the
    necessary infrastructure to support high-tech (e.g. skilled
    labor force, big university); and 2) is not in California
    (thus avoiding astronomical housing costs).  Being on the
    West Coast would allow DEC to tap the skills of the sizable
    number of people who wouldn't relocate to New England for any
    amount of money (mostly for the same reasons that a sizable
    number of New Englanders wouldn't relocate to the West Coast
    for any amount of money).
    
    Furthermore, Seattle is one of those relatively rare cities
    capable of inspiring people put up with less-than-ideal jobs
    rather than move away (a desirable characteristic from an
    employer's point of view).  Though I know absolutely nothing
    about what is going on at ZSO, I suspect that many of the
    engineers there are more likely to change jobs than relocate.
    

    This leaves the Bay Area (Palo Alto, Mountain View, and Cupertino,
    to be exact) as DEC's only Engineering location west of Colorado
    Springs . Even though I enjoy working in Palo Alto immensely, and
    wouldn't trade my job for anything right now, there is something
    daunting about living in an area where 2BR/1BA houses sell for over
    $300K, and child care costs for preschoolers is in the $450-650/month
    per child range. 
    
    
    					/Paul Jensen
    
					(occasionally regretful
    					 ex-Seattlite)

    re: .44--House prices in Southern New Hampshire are also daunting.
    I built my house in 1969 for $30,000; it would probably sell for
    $150,000 today, if I were willing to sell it.  Maybe we should all
    move to Seattle.
        John Sauter

    Only $150,000. For that amount you might get somebodies small outhouse
    here in Silicon Valley?
    
    George
    

    Bellevue and Seattle are currently being likened to the Silicon Valley
    of the Pacific Northwest (just like Santa Barbara is considered the
    Silicon Valley of Southern CA).  Much of the reason for this is because
    it is the home of several startups, including Microsoft.
    
    For $150K around here you could have an absolutely beautiful home
    on a horse acre, about 10 or 15 minutes away from the office.
    
    Doug

    re: .47--What's a "horse acre"?
        John Sauter

    40,000 square Feet.  Also refered to in other parts of the country
    as a builder's acre.  Its 10,000 feet shy of a real acre.
    
    

re .-1 -- it's actually only 3560 sq feet short of a real acre.

    .47 is wrong.
    
    For $150,000, you can't get diddly in Seattle!
    
    Stay away!  It rains all the time.  You'd hate it.
    
    There are no jobs.
    
    Brett.
    

    Brett, me thinks you do protest too much!
    
    I spent four years in the great northwest (not with DEC unfortunately)
    and will trade you for Massachusetts any day.
    
    Tom

    RE .51

    I believe Brett may be playing a clever ploy of making Seattle look bad 
    in an effort to keep it from going bad.  I may be banished from the Pacific 
    Northwest but you see one of the things that make the Northwest so great 
    is the lack of people.  In an effort to keep it that way there is often 
    a deliberate effort by individuals to discourage others from visiting or 
    moving there by making it look bad.  

    I was born in Seattle and grew up in the Pacific Northwest.  There was a 
    group in Oregon the continually tried to submit legislature to the state 
    legislature to help limit people from moving in.  Some of the proposals 
    included removing all the off ramps of the major interstate freeways 
    leading through the state.  Another was to shorten all the airport runways 
    to no longer than that needed to take off and land small hot air balloons.  

    True it does rain a lot in Seattle.  Most of it fails during the late fall 
    though spring.  Seattle can have some of the best summers of any where in 
    the nation.  The type of summer days you see in Boston after a cool Canadian
    cold front comes through, drying/clearing the air and cooling the nights.  
    Seattle can have one day like that after another for weeks on end.

    Sorry for letting the cat out of the bag.  Perhaps you should keep the 
    Seattle tourist board from running all of toughs adds on Boston's local 
    television.

    Bob

RE: .53

I'm sure that Boeing wouldn't be too happy if the runways were too short
for them to take off and land their planes.  Business wouldn't be all
that good if they had to park all of their planes on the ground when
they were finished!

-milt
;-)

re .54

Boeing has their own airport -- the maiden flights of their aircraft are not
from the commercial field.

/john

    Boeing Field in Seattle (also known as King Co. Int'l. Arpt.) is a 
    public airport with both private and commercial flights.  Before 
    Sea-Tac was built, it function as Seattle's airport.  I'm not sure 
    of the status of Boeing's Everett field.  Last time I flew from Sea-Tac 
    it was aboard a factory fresh Boeing 767.  Apparently it's common for 
    airlines to take delivery of airplanes at Boeing and then fly them 
    into and out of Sea-Tac to take advantage of the planes right away.  

    BTW in .53 I was speaking of proposals in Oregon.  Last I looked Seattle 
    was a little north of that state.

    /Bob

    RE: .51
    
    In the 1970's Gov. Tom McCall of Oregon made the statement famous
    "Welcome to Oregon, I hope you enjoy your visit!".  Otherwise,
    visit but please don't stay.  There are those of us in Seattle
    that love it and those who hate it.  It does rain approximately
    270 days per year.  It's not really rain, but usually a constant
    mist.  Weather reports that indicate an 80% chance of rain mean
    that it will rain 80% of the day.
    
    I live in a nice suburb and spent less than 1/2 of $150,000 for
    a home.  Must more affordable than Bean town.
    
    

    re: .53 and .57
    
    Oh sure, go ahead and tell them Seattle is marginally okay.
    Next they'll all want to move here.
    
    Boston is much better.  It has *culture*.  
    
    To a seattlite, culture is pouring salt on slugs after a good rain.
    Does this sound like the kind of place you'd want to raise your kids?
    
    I'm telling you, it isn't pretty here in the Northwest. 
    
    A guy came to visit once.  When he got home his wife said, "how was
    the weather."
    
    He said, "Fine.  It only rained twice; once for a week and once
    for three weeks".


    Trust me, you'd hate it
    Brett.                                                    
    

    Do you think we can drop the sales/unsales pitches for the
    Great North Wet? Besides why would someone move to somewhere,
    as one New Yorker once said, that is so far from the ocean? :-)
    
    			Alfred

    
      I agree with .59 and would like to see some more comments on the
      cancellation of a whole Hardware Engineering group. The discussion
      got off track because it appears that the Seattle area has a lot to
      offer the company as a place to expand in hardware if it wanted to.
      

    re: .55
    
    Boeing builds the 737 and 757 at the Renton Airport.  It is 
    a General Aviation airport.  The 747 and 767 are built at
    Paine Field in Everett, this Airport supports General Aviation,
    some Commercial (Horizon Air) and is being considered at a 
    second major Airport in the Seattle Area.  My understanding
    is that these airports are owned by the cities and counties
    and maintained by Boeing.
    
    Seattle is crowded and has lots of traffic conjestion becuase of many
    big puddles of water.  It is very difficult to get to SEA-TAC for
    those of us who don't live in the south end.

        The word that I have heard from a friend of D.C.'s is that he did
        not leave to go anywhere. He left becuase he didn't want to
        stay... I believe he is enjoying an extended holiday.
        
        q
        

    God bless him...(have mercy on us?).

    I'm impressed at the efficiency of the the people that publish the
    Annual Report :-} If you look in the back of your annual report for
    1988 you'll notice that under Corporate Consulting Engineers there
    is no mention of Dave Cutler. His name does appear in the 1987 annual
    report. Seems a bit strange to me, because it is the 1988 annual
    report and DC was here for the whole of the fiscal year.
    
    Dave

I wonder what would happen if I sent in my proxy card with a write in vote for 
Dave Cutler for Board of Directors and withholding support for the other 
nominated candidates.

Hmmm. May be I will try it. Might be even more interesting if several employees 
did it.

Dileep

        Re: .66 -- Probably nothing, although it's an interesting symbolic
        gesture.  I'm not sure Dave Cutler would be interested in being on
        DEC's Board of Directors.  Even if hundreds of employees did what
        you suggest, it probably would not make any difference in the
        outcome of the voting, although it might be noticed and remarked
        on at the Annual Meeting. 
        
        Tom

    I asked a question at the annual meeting once, the first annual
    meeting. Never again. I got beat on by several vp's, Win Hindle among
    them. KO remembered it for a long time and repeatedly brought it up
    I've been told. 
    
    There had been several old-mill fires in Massachusetts. I asked whether
    DEC had any plans to spread the company out so one fire wouldn't get
    the whole company. KO's public(!) answer was that his first concern was
    for the safety of the employees and their jobs. The question and the
    answer did get into the financial page reports on the annual meeting.
    
    About 3 days later, it took that long for *them* to find our whom I
    worked for as I had just changed cost centers, I was called into Larry
    Portner's office and informed that the question was unreasonable and I
    shouldn't have asked it. At the time, Larry was not a vp so hadn't been
    at the meeting. I asked him who had requested he talk to me. He refused
    to say so I refused to accept uninformed criticism from him (ie, Larry
    Portner).
    
    (I probably knew more about old mill buildings then anybody else at
    DEC. My great grandfather started a plywood factory in Wisconsin in
    1866 and built an "old mill" identical in construction techniques to
    the Maynard mill. It was the standard construction for years and years.
    My father ran the plywood factory and I spent a good portion of my
    growing-up years inside, and listening to his stories about the
    building, including the obvious fire issues. There are still problems,
    in my opinion, with control of fires spreading in those buildings. In
    general, though, it is fairly safe in spite of being built out of wood.
    The beams are so thick they burn very slowly, but once started, a fire
    would be almost impossible to stop. The slow fire would allow enough
    time for everybody to get out.) 
    
    About six months later a brand new fire sprinkler system was installed
    in building 12. About two years later, I attended an instrument-flying
    course; Stan Olsen, Ken's brother, was also there. Since Stan no longer
    worked for DEC, I asked him about the issue. Stan said I had asked a
    very embarrassing question because the fire insurance people were
    extremely concerned. The question had been too good and not
    unreasonable at all! And every annual meeting I went to for the next
    few years had Win Hindle go out of his way to walk over to me and ask,
    "Do you have anything you want to know before the meeting starts?" 
    
    Remember that one of KO's "hot buttons" is publicity. Anything that
    even sounds like it might cause adverse publicity will get him *very*
    upset. Bringing what really amounts to an internal management issue up
    in public, ie, at the annual meeting, is very likely to cause
    repercussions. My question didn't even involve internal information and
    I got lots of flack. I didn't get any sympathy either when I asked
    Larry Portner, "Do I lose my rights as a stock holder because I am an
    employee?" 
    
    Now with that story in mind, you can decide for yourself whether or not
    you want to propose Dave Cutler for the Board of Directors.

re Note 604.68 by EAGLE1::EGGERS:

        In such a forum, you have to expect to get flack from even
        perfectly reasonable questions and statements.  It doesn't
        sound like you suffered from asking that question (other than
        from the verbal scolding of your boss).  And it looks like
        your question might actually have prompted some action (one
        never knows for sure, of course).

        Bob
        (who worked for a year in the Mill, and thanks you for asking
        that question!)

    
    re: 604.68 604.66 <Cutler on B of D>
    
    I guess it would'nt hurt for the the hardware
    group here at DECWest to write in Dave's name.
    I mean whats the worse then can do....
    Tell us we dont have jobs in Seattle and have
    to move back east.... Naaaaa they would'nt do
    that... Or would they?
    
    
    

re: .66, .68 et al.

Unfortunately it isn't that simple.  To be eligible for election to the
board you have to be nominated.  As far as I can tell these nominations
must be made by the Nominating Committee - this is the current board of
directors.

Unfortunately I know next to nothing about US/Mass company law, so I
don't know whether there is a way around what seems like catch-22 to me.

jb

    My apologies if this diverges too far from the base topic...

    I didn't own stock in DEC back then, but if I had, I'd have replied
    to Tom thus:

     "From a stockholder, suggesting what is expected in management's
      response:

     "Thank you very much for illuminating a concern important to the
      preservation of the stockholders' investment, not to mention the
      safety of their employees!  No doubt all the company's management 
      are pleased to receive your information and encouragement.

     "We stockholders expect to reward those who respond positively to
      your reminder, those who seek ways to assure the company's employees 
      and owners that their persons and physical plant receive maximum 
      protection. 

     "Although the company is vigilant, it is certainly possible that some
      risks can escape notice, and reminders like yours are welcome.  To
      reassure you, our other stockholders, our employees, and residents of
      the community around our plant, our management will apply even more
      attention to safety plans.  Additionally, they will expressly seek
      new ways to improve our plant's safety.

     "Remember, our company builds a solid, reliable product, with 
      demonstrably superior characteristics.  The same vigorous, 
      inquisitive attitudes that create our products underpin our daily
      operations.  We stockholders do not allow exceptions.

     "Thank you very much for your foresight!"

    Regards, Robert.

    PS  I get the impression that safety is important in the buildings
        I've visited, from cabling in computer rooms, to removing
	flammables.  Surely our care is motivated by intelligence, and 
	not outside coercion from insurance carriers!

    PPS Let's see... Back to the base topic...  Maybe Cutler was right
        to leave the company; maybe he was wrong.  So what could we learn
	by finding our which it is?

Here is some information we received at DECwest yesterday.  Before reading
it, please know the following:

1) "Reassignable employees" refers to members of the DECwest hardware group
and a few other support personnel ONLY.  Members of the DECwest software
group are "unaffected", and the software group will continue to be located
at DECwest.

2) ALL of the "Reassignable employees" have been offered comparable positions
in Massachusetts.

Note: I have slightly edited the following to include a correction that
was mailed out after the original.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


The following is a recap of the information you received today.

- Effective 10/25/88, the reassignment process is being formally implemented 
for all reassignable employees at Decwest.

- If a reassignable employee is offered two comparable jobs that require 
relocation and rejects both, the second rejection will constitute a company 
release, which will occur on January 20, l989.

- If a reassignable employee if offered one comparable job that does not require
relocation and rejects the job, the rejection will constitute a company release
which will occur on January 20, l989.

- The reassignment period will continue through January 20, l989, at which 
time employees progress and performance will be evaluated.


What this means is if you reject two Digital offers to relocate, you have 
until January 20th to find another position or be released from the company.


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Frankly, I feel this is a reasonable offer.  Unfortunately, for personal reasons
I want to stay in Seattle, which means I am currently looking for positions
outside of Digital.  If I fail at finding a reasonable position here, I will
consider relocation.

I feel very sad about this.  I think Digital is an excellent and dynamic
company, with a unique feeling of responsibility towards its employees.  I have
enjoyed working at DECwest more than any other job I've had, I've even referred
to it as "engineering heaven" at times.  This is a great group of people.
However, I don't want to relocate, and so in my mind these developments
constitute a layoff for myself and many others here.

David Robinson, a DECwest Hardware Engineer
    

          [*** This story is fiction. Any resemblance to real
          people, places, or things is coincidental. ***]


                              Venous Pooling's

                                BOOK REVIEW


          Blue Storm Rising
          by Dom Glancy


          This is the story about a giant, very successful
          computer company that is infiltrated by industrial
          agents hired by it's chief competitor, code name Blue.
          These industrial agents ( spies, put out of work by
          Glasnost) infiltrate the corporate structure at all
          levels - manufacturing, engineering, and marketing.
          Their initial diabolical plan was to get the company
          to reorganize and move all of the employees at least
          twice a year. But this plan backfires and oddly
          enough, in a state of chaotic continumn, the company
          actually prospered and grew at a rate of 40% per year.
          This phenomenon inspires a new Business school course
          "Discovering the Benefits of Matrix Management".

          A new devious plan is devised to get the company to
          change their overall product strategy at least once
          a quarter. To do this, the agents actually have to
          infiltrate Fall Street - the Fall Street Journal,
          Salmon Brothers, and several other top industry
          analysts. This plan was extremely hard to implement
          because the company, for many years, had a policy
          of ignoring what Fall Street was telling it to do.
          It took much lobbying before Blue's infiltrators
          could convince the company that it was much too big
          a corporation now not to listen to Fall Street and
          that Fall Street knew how to run a computer business
          better than the company could hope to. For two years
          the company wimps and waffles back and forth between
          product strategy. Projects are canceled or redirected,
          and the employees in the trenches are starting to feel
          the ripple down effect and become concerned enough
          to start paying closer attention to what is going
          on. Amazing as it may seem the company still showed
          profits, growth, and increased market share. This
          phenomenon inspires another Business school course
          "When in doubt swap it out".

          The persistent Blue devises a new master plan -
          the plan to end all plans. By now they have a huge
          network of infiltrators even in such places as "Howard
          Business School" and the "Slower School of Business
          Management" and many important customer sites. The new
          plan is to convince the company to stop designing and
          manufacturing proprietary hardware and software. It
          takes some doing but the company finally buckles in
          to the pressure placed on it by the network of agents,
          especially the agents posing as customers stating that
          the lack of standards was much to confusing for them
          and giving them a migraine.

          This latest plan has some unexpected side effects.
          Canceling projects and new architectures drives the
          company's most creative people away. Blue tries to
          hire these people right away by offering them Vice
          Presidencies and huge salaries. But being intelligent
          people they refuse (for now). Blue will continue to
          pursue winning these people to insure that creativity
          never gets back into the company.

          By now the company thinks it knows what it is doing
          and wants the world to know. To get their new message
          across, the company abandons their traditionally
          conservative approach, and hires the Fat Boys as their
          advertising agency, and begin cranking out commercials
          for prime time network viewing.

          In the meantime Blue is negotiating with the Chinese
          to take over the lease on Taiwan in 1998. By that
          time Blue expects that no one will know how to build
          proprietary hardware and software anymore. (All of the
          creative people are either raising sheep in Montana,
          or have become Maine Guides.) All computers will look
          alike and the software will be identical. Blue can
          then use Taiwan manufacturing savvy to crank out
          millions of systems and sell them well below their
          competitor thus cornering the market for at least 20
          years.

    

    I understand that Cutler landed at Micro-soft. Is this old news
    or no news?
    
    Marge

    It's recent news, and accurate.

    
    	Not only is Dave at MICROSOFT, but it appears that he will
    	not be lonely.....many of the old DECWest team are following
    	his lead.  Oh well, it was fun while it lasted....
    
    Tim B.
    

    
    Word to the wary: before you spring at an opportunity at Microsoft,
    remember that the pay is good because there are significant costs
    to working there. Dave has pluses and minuses, so does any company
    run by Bill Gates and significantly influenced by IBM and a Harvard/
    Stanford mentality. OS/2 may also yet become the Apple Lisa or 
    Symphony of operating systems.
    
        John
    

    As a delivery specialist who works in the Bellevue area, I can
    vouch for the fact that conditions at Microsoft are less than ideal
    for employees.
    
    I have dealt with some engineers who work there, and some who used
    to work there.  If you are a delivery specialist for DEC, and you
    think we have long hours, you should hear some of the horror stories
    I do.
    
    I personally am sorry to see Dave go.  But then, I only knew him
    under non-working conditions.  From what I've heard about his hard
    charging work personality, I have a feeling that Microsoft will
    probably get alot of good use out of him.
    
    Doug

Digital Review 11/21/88

VMS Developer Leaving Home For Microsoft

David Gianatasio

David Cutler, one of the brains behind DEC's VMS operating system and 
one of the developers of the popular MicroVAX line, has traded in his 
job at DEC's Seattle-based DECWest facility for a leadership position 
at the software development labs of Microsoft of Redmond, Wash.

Cutler, a 17-year DEC veteran, cited "instability" at DEC.  "Let's 
just say it's a general instability," he said.

"Digital had trouble in [establishing] a clear strategy," Cutler said. 
 "Microsoft offered me a challenging opportunity and better career 
growth," he added.

Cutler, 46, held the position of senior corporate consultant at DEC.  
He was one of three such consultants in the company.

In addition to being a leading architect of the VMS operating system, 
which DEC debuted in 1978, Cutler was one of the designers of DEC's 
RSX-11M operating system for PDP-11 computers, DEC's front-line 
realtime systems in the 1970s.

His 200-person research team at DECWest produced the MicroVAX computer 
in 1985.

"I'll be leading a lot fewer people at Microsoft than when I was at 
Digital," Cutler said.  "I have nine people now, though I expect to 
have more" soon.

Cutler said his team will work to develop new versions of Microsoft 
OS/2 and other operating system software.

A Good Match

Cutler and Microsoft are a good match from a product perspective 
because of the similarities between OS/2 and VMS, according to Stephen 
K. Smith, a computer analyst at New York's Paine Webber, an investment 
research house.

"OS/2 borrows a lot from VMS.  It looks a lot more like VMS than 
Unix," Smith said.

John Logan, vice president of Boston's Aberdeen Group, an investment 
research company, said Cutler's move to Microsoft is a sign the 
company is "planning for the future" and hopes to use Cutler's 
expertise to implement RISC-based technology in forthcomiong products. 
 "He can bring full knowledge as to how to develop software for 
RISC-based systems," Logan said.

When asked if his group will develop an entirely noew operating 
system, Cutler replied, "It could be something like that."

    Re: .80
    
    An error in that news item (I read it in DR as well) - The "MicroVAX"
    introduced in 1985 was the MicroVAX II, designed in Hudson.  Cutler's
    MicroVAX I was introduced in 1983.
    
    				Steve

Also Re: .80
    
Eventhough the group is now about 200 strong, the team that brought out 
MicroVAX-1 and VAXELN was 1/10 that size.

Dileep

    I think that it is interesting to note that DEC has just brought
    out a line of low-end products that are partially based on outside
    (DEC) technology, and DECWest was building RISC based technology.
    
    Alex 

From MIPS magazine, May 1989 issue:

OS/2 to have fast file system, 386 and RISC versions

Microsoft Corp. and IBM have described future plans for OS/2 that include a
386-only version with a high-performance file system, and versions with
multiprocessor support and RISC support.  These and other topics were discussed
at the Microsoft Systems Seminar, held at Microsoft's Redmond, Washington,
campus in late February.

One of the most difficult tasks facing developers working on the current
286-based versions of OS/2 is writing dual-mode device drivers.  Since devices
must continue to run at all times, device driver code has to run unchanged in
real mode (for compatibility box operation) and protected mode (while OS/2
applications are running).  One implication of the dual-mode requirement is
that device drivers have to reside in a fixed area in low memory, further
constricting space for DOS applications.

This problem and others will be solved in OS/2 in Version 2.0, which will run
only on the 80386 and will be available to developers late in 1989 and to
users sometime next year.  The new version is promised to have full binary
compatibility with applications for previous versions of OS/2.  Under OS/2 2.0,
multiple DOS applications will be able to run at once, and DOS as well as OS/2
applications will have full virtual memory support.  The 64-Kbyte segment size
limitation, which hinders use of large data structures such as are needed to
support high-resolution screens, will be removed entirely.

The 80386-only version will also have a new, faster file system that will
support small files with minimal overhead and large files up to 4 gigabytes in
size.  Test results using RBase showed the new file system running twice as
fast as the current OS/2 file system.

The 80386's virtual memory capabilities will probably also be made available
under Windows/386.  In a "technology demonstration," Windows applications were
shown multitasking and using virtual memory to run with several Mbytes of
memory available.  Each application was restricted to 640 Kbytes, but DOS
usage in each window was less than 100 Kbytes, and expanded (LIM) memory was
available to each application.

OS/2 will eventually support RISC chips and multiprocessing.  Microsoft has
hired Dave Cutler, who left DEC after the company canceled its internal RISC
project and adopted the MIPS R2000 RISC processor.  He will work on OS/2
support for RISC.  Support for systems with one Intel 80x86 processor and one
RISC coprocessor will come first, with support for traditional multiprocessing
- "1 to n similar processors" - to follow.  Eventually, a "portable OS/2" will
be developed, written largely in a high-level language and available on a wide
variety of systems.

Microsoft's Unix efforts will soon result in an extended version of the
upcoming AT&T System V, Rel 4, which will feature multiprocessing support. The
adoption of the OSF/Motif environment, with its Presentation Manager-Style
user interface, by several vendors will also extend an OS/2-like "look and
feel" across OS/2 and Unix.