Conference 7.286::digital

    UK Digital already uses American Express and has done so for some
    time...

I thought you used Hogg Robinson in Reading.

    Are we talking charge cards or travel agency ( I think the latter
    was intended).
    
    Re .1
        
    Digital UK does not 'use' American Express. They will pay your
    membership fee for Amex if you are a regular traveller on DEC business
    but it doesn't have to be Amex. There is no corporate tie up, you
    pay your Amex bill like a private individual.
    
    In fact they have specifically moved away from any corporate agreements
    because they take expense control away from the source. We used
    to have telephone credit cards and AVIS cards which were direct billed
    to Digital, and despite much protest they were taken away for the
    above reason.
    
    As regards a travel agency, Hogg Robinson is still in the chair
    isn't it?
    
    -Mike-
    
    Digital use

    My intent was to communicate the fact that DEC UK issues Amex cards,
    not Diners Club cards. I believe that the DEC US Diners Club cards
    are individually billed too.
    
    For travel arrangements  we still use Hogg Robb. 

    I believe that each facility selects its own travel agent.  It would
    hardly make sense for, say, the Colorado Springs facility to use
    a New England travel agent.
    
    Here at ZK, we seem to cycle through travel agents about once every
    two years.  I have no complaints about Crimson, unlike some of the
    others.
    				Steve

    Back to the questions in .0, both issues (using Amex instead of
    Diners Club, using Amex Travel Services instead of Crimson) are
    currently in negotiation, looking positive on both counts.
    
    Jon

	.5 is correct.

	Here in Bedford, we use Fox Travel.  In fact, Fox recently 
	opened an office here in the facility, in Building D.
Frank

In re American Express as our travel agent:

Is this a single facility negotiating this, or is this a corporate negotiation?
Crimson Travel is right down the road from the Maynard, Acton, Marlboro, and
Littleton facilities.  American Express is nowhere nearby.  Or would they open
a new office to serve us?

/john

    I think that I got an answer to my own question in a recent newspaper
    article.  Here it is:
    
    DIGITAL EQUIPMENT SET TO TAP AMEXCO 
    -----------------------------------
    published in Business Travel News -- Monday, May 4, 1987 
    copyright (c)1987 by CMP Publications, Inc. 


    Digital Equipment Corp., Maynard, Mass. remains tight-lipped about
    awarding its travel account.  Company officials say Digital is ready to
    sign a new agency soon, but won't say which one.  Sources say American
    Express Travel Related Services, Inc. will be tapped, and company
    officials do not deny that.  The account is reportedly one of the
    largest in New England and is estimated at about $19 million.  At the
    same time, the company confirmed that it has put its corporate card
    account out to bid.  That account, figured to be worth about $90
    million, is currently handled by Citicorp Diners Club. 

    Crimson Travel has been handling Digital's corporate account in New
    England, and one Digital spokesman said emphatically that the decision
    to change vendors had nothing to do with Crimson's handling of the
    account.  "This is a business decision and not a reflection of the
    service we received from Crimson.  We consider them a very fine
    vendor," the spokesman said. 

    If service is not the issue, then apparently money is.  Sources say
    American Express came through with a 4 percent to 5 percent rebate
    offer.  And although American Express may have a hard time making money
    on the travel end, it could stand to reap significant benefits from a
    corporate card deal.  Digital is said to have 15,000 cards in use. 

    
                                                                      

    I would applaud if we went with AMEX.  I think their service is
    far superior to the other cards.  Their customer reps are also
    more 'customer' oriented. Their cards are honored in more
    establishments.  All those cards I got with my diners club
    to ask that a certain restaurant be added as accepting diners club?
    They went in the circular file...
    
    Gil
    
    an AMEX member since '83 (my own card).
    

    It is of course ENTIRELY unrelated, but AmexCo has been talking
    to us about other matters lately.  Maybe they're tired of being
    so Blue.  (No mention of their VP who used to be a high-up DEChie.)
    
    Doesn't the Mill still have DECtrav hiding in back of the Crimson
    office?  That office not only provided good service (when I was
    in a site served by them for a while) but Digital kept the commissions,
    since it was off-site.  Our tickets came thru from "Crimson Travel,
    146 Main St., Maynard".

Maybe as we negotiate with AMEX about corporate travel cards, we can 
get them to stop the sexist practice of refusing to allow joint 
memberships. I am the member and my wife has a card on my account and 
I am responsible for any charges. They have said to our repeated 
demands that they make her jointly responsible (at the same time 
establishing credit history for the future) that she must have a 
separate account, paying full fee to do that.

In my opinion, that's a serious blot on an otherwise efficient 
operation.

John H.

    Re: .12
    
    Don't bother - AMEX doesn't build any credit history - they never
    report to credit bureaus (unless you're a deadbeat, I imagine).
    I've had an Amex card for six years and have never once seen it
    show up on my credit report.  Have your wife get a Visa or
    MasterCard (if she doesn't already have one), use it wisely and
    she'll do just fine.  Amex won't even respond to direct inquries
    from potential creditors, so it does them no good for you to list
    an Amex card number on applications.
    
    As for travel - many people are not aware that Amex travel offices
    are usually run under some local firm's name.  The closest one to
    Nashua I am aware of is in Manchester (NH).
    
    					Steve

    I don't know if this question is appropriate here - anyway, I'll
    ask it:
    
    When I was in the U.S. last summer, I found the only useful credit
    cards are Visa and MasterCard (I had a Diners Club :-(  ) because
    you can buy virtually *anything* with them. Although AMEX seemed
    to be accepted at more establishments than Diners, I can't imagine
    why so many people in the previous replies are so fond of switching
    to AMEX. Wouldn't be Visa or MC the better solution ?  Or what are
    their disadvantages over AMEX ?
    
    Thanks for the information,
    Hans.

    Both Visa and Mastercard are credit cards -- Amex, on the other
    hand, is a charge card.  The differences:
    
    1. Credit cards only allow you to charge items up to a set limit.
       Granted, that limit is usually not met within one billing period,
       but it *is* possible to exceed it.
       
       In addition, while credit cards do not require full payment of
       the amount owed, they do impose hefty interest charges on the
       unpaid balance.
       
    2. Charge cards have no set limit.  You can, if you choose, put
       the purchase price of a house on your American Express card.
       
       The disadvantage to this, however, is simple:  the entire amount
       owed must be paid upon receipt of the bill.  If, on the other hand,
       you happen to miss a payment (as has been known to happen) no
       interest charge is attached to your account.
       
       In addition to this, this is a certain "status" attached to
       the American Express Card. 
    
    In summary -- if you stay within the credit limit, and pay your bills
    on time, there is no essential difference between the cards. 
       
    					andrew
       

    RE: .0
    
    From: Judy Spencer, Dept: Marlboro Travel, DTN: 297-7467, Date:
    5-12-87 
    
    SUBJ: TRAVEL SERVICES/TRAVELLER PROFILES
    
    Effective Monday, June 29, 1987 American Express Travel Related
    Services Company, Inc. will be replacing Crisom Travel Services
    as the contracted agency in the New Englnad Administration Geography.
    This change is being made to continue the process of reducing the
    cost of travel, reducing the cost of managing travel, and enhancing
    service levels.
    
    Amercian Express will open a Business Travel Center (BTC) in each
    of the Admisistrative areas, convenient to major Digital locations.
    Each BTC will provide a wide variety of business travel programs
    for Digital employees.  In addition, American Express offers an
    international network of offices to provide travel support to Digital's
    business travellers.
    
    As part of the implementation process, travel seminars will be held
    to introduce American Express' staff and services to both travellers
    and travel arrangers during June.  Additonal announcements will
    be made notifying employees of BTC addresses, phone numbers, and
    other operational details.
    
    Employees that travel on business at least four times a year should
    complete a new traveller profile which printed onthe reverse side
    of this memo.  The profile information is stored in American Express'
    data base and is used to efficiently process the reservation request.
    
    To ensure a smooth transition of your travel information for your
    next trip, please complete the traveller profile on the return side
    and return it to me by May 22.
    
    Thank-you for your cooperation
    
    REVERSE SIDE:
    
    Personal Information:
    
    Badge:
    Name, Last
          First
    	  MI
    
    Mail/Stop
    Dec location
    DTN
    
    Home Phone
    Home address
    
    Your weight
    CC
    CC manager
    
    Traval Arranger - Badge
    	  	      Name
    		      DTN
    
    Billing - Corp Credit Card #
    	      Expires
    
    Preferences - Airline - 1
    			    2
    			    3
    		Freq Flier # - 1
    			       2
    			       3
    
    		seat window/aisle       circle one
    		     smoking/non-smoking   circle one
    
    		special meals
    
    		medical laerts
    
    Passport -  number
    		country citizenship
    		date/place of issue
    		expires
    		long term visas
    
    Signature
    
    

To: Distribution				Date: 12-May-87
						From: Sharlet Trilling
cc: Dick Foster					Dept: Nagog Travel Services
    Doug Hammond				DTN:  244-6906
    Beebe Meyer					Mailstop: AKO1-3/D10

Subject: Travel Services/Traveller Profiles

Effective Monday, June 29, 1987 American Express Travel Related
Services Company, Inc. will be replacing Crimson Travel Services
as the contracted agency in the New England Administration
Geography.  This change is being made to continue the process of
reducing the cost of travel, reducing the cost of managing travel
and enhancing service levels.

American Express will open a Business Travel Center (BTC) in each
of the Administrative areas, convenient to major Digital
locations.  Each BTC will provide a wide variety of business
travel programs for Digital employees.  In addition, American
Express offers an international network of offices to provide
travel support to Digital's business travellers.

As part of the implementation process, travel seminars will be
held to introduce American Express' staff and services to both
travellers and travel arrangers during June.  Additional
announcements will be made notifying employees of BTC addresses,
phone numbers and other operational details.

Employees that travel on business at least four times a year
should complete a new traveller profile which is printed on the
reverse side of this memo.  The profile information is stored in
American Express' data base and is used to efficiently process
the reservation request.

To ensure a smooth transition of your travel information for your
next trip, please complete the traveller profile on the return
side and return it to me by May 22th.

Thank you for your cooperation.

    One other difference in AMEX vs the credit cards.   There was an
    article in the news a year or so ago about an American tourist who
    was arrested while traveling in Greece.   Seems that he or she (cant
    remember which) exceeded their credit limit and this was reported
    back to the merchants they were charging things.   the story went
    on to say that this was a criminal offense in Greece.   
    
    Suspect that if same thing was true here, we would run out of jails.
    
    Personaly, I use both and will always use the AMEX first as there
    is no charge added on to the purchase.   Some of the Credit kCards
    here charge an annual fee like AMEX and some add interest even if
    you pay in full the same month and some do both.  the interest rates
    vary widely as well and it does pay to shop around.

Sure there is a charge added on.  AMEX just will not let the store deduct
this if you pay cash.  And AMEX wants more than the other card companies.
And AMEX does not pay the store until you pay AMEX, which is why there is
no limit.   These are all reasons why AMEX is not widely accepted,
especially in small stores.

    Re: .19
    
    To the best of my knowledge, it is NOT true that Amex won't pay
    a store until you pay - the bookkeeping for such a scheme would
    be enormous!  The general problem with stores accepting Amex is
    that they do demand a higher percentage of the sale than do
    bank cards - 4-5% vs 2-3% for bank cards.  But as I see Amex
    being accepted a lot more places lately, I wonder if this has
    changed.
    
    It is not difficult to find a bank card that has a 30-day grace
    period, and if you always pay in full when you are billed, there's
    no difference in cost to you for Amex vs. a bank card.  Yet I
    do like Amex for the ability to make LARGE purchases with little
    difficulty (it has bailed me out of more than one nasty occasion).
    Also, if you have an Amex gold card, you can treat it like a
    bank card by using your associated line of credit to spread payments
    out (at rates similar to many bank cards - i.e. not that low).
    
    If I have an outstanding balance on my bank cards, I'll try to use
    Amex instead as I won't get charged interest on those purchases.
    
    But all this has little to do with the travel agency!
    
    				Steve

    re: 19
    
    In fact, I've been to an establishment where someone whips out
    an AMEX card and the counter person says "I'll knock 2% off your
    bill if you'll pay with VISA/MC or cash/check."
    
    Deb 

    I was in Croydon England on business and found that the shops, models
    and resteraunts all preferred a Bank Card (MC/VISA) to AMEX, especially
    AMEX.   I asked the manager of one resteraunt (Flic's in Wickham)
    why.  The answer is that he could deposit and have use of case from
    any bank card charges immediately but AMEX took 4-6 weeks to make
    the cash available in his account.  Whether this is peculiar to using
    a US AMEX card over there I don't know.
    
    						Bill 

>   AMEX took 4-6 weeks to make the cash available in his account.  Whether
>   this is peculiar to using a US AMEX card over there I don't know.

Probably not, since that's what merchants in the U.S. tell me they don't like
about AMEX.  Precisely the 4-6 weeks.

/john

    Another reason (or so I've been told) is that Amex, unlike Visa/Mc/etc,
    Amex does not pay the vendor until the card-holder has paid the
    bill in full.  In other words, if you charge airline tickets and
    spread the payments out over 6 months, the airline does not get
    paid by Amex until that you've made that 6th final payment.  Or
    even if you don't use the Amex "revolving" type of charge, Amex
    doesn't pay the vendor until you pay the bill, which holds true
    even if you get a month or two behind.
    
    If this is really true, I wouldn't blame a vendor for preferring
    almost *any* other charge over the Amex card.
    
    Jon

I know I missed something (what else is new :-)

Are you trying to tell me that if I go into a commercial business, and decide
to accept VISA or Mastercard, I will be _FORCED_ to also accept AMEX whether I
want to or not?!! If American Express payment schedules are less that helpful
to my business, I don't think I would put up their sign. 

I can see a large chain doing so and then have a local manager _prefer_ other 
cards to improve their cash flow picture.

I can't understand an airline taking that delay. (I'm not sure I believe that 
"no pay till it's paid" story).

Are we talking about the ubiquitous green card, gold card or the new regular 
use credit card?

Are these "horror" stories left over from the aforementioned credit card 
introduction where it was said the big banks contacted merchants to "suggest" 
they refuse to accept the new card?

How about the commercial I heard the other day that invites you to the 
Olympics and then says bring VISA because _the_Olympics_ don't accept American 
Express!?

        Mike

>    Amex does not pay the vendor until the card-holder has paid the
>    bill in full.  In other words, if you charge airline tickets and
>    spread the payments out over 6 months, the airline does not get
>    paid by Amex until that you've made that 6th final payment.

There are two problems with this:

1a. Green AMEX cards must *always* be paid in full each month.
1b. Gold AMEX cards must *always* be paid in full each month.  If you have
   a gold card, you may also have a line-of-credit with a bank, who may, at
   your direction, pay AMEX *in*full*.  You then have a loan from the bank,
   not from AMEX.

2. As has been pointed out earlier in this note, keeping track of which
   merchant charges have actually been paid would be a monumental database
   management task.  AMEX simply pays after 30-60 days, which is usually
   after the cardholder has paid.  But not always.  I recently protested a
   charge, and received as part of the discussion a letter from AMEX to the
   merchant informing them that their account would be DEBITED by the amount
   protested.  This would indicate that the merchant had been paid, even though
   I had not paid the amount of the charge.

/john

    Re: .25
    
    There is no link between the bank cards (MC/Visa) and Amex.  Merchants
    are not forced to accept Amex just because they take MC/Visa.
    Note that it is almost always true that if a merchant takes one
    of the bank cards that they also take the other, as usually both
    are processed by the same bank.
    
    I cannot possibly believe that Amex delays payment to the merchant
    until the cardholder pays - nobody would accept Amex cards in
    such a situation.  Even in the spread-out payment plan that Amex
    offers for travel purchases, the vendors get paid immediately.
    
    I also doubt that Amex takes 30-60 days to pay - it certainly wasn't
    that way when I worked for a mail-order company, and set up our
    processing with Amex.  My recollection is that payment was sent
    10 days after receipt of charges.  I will call a merchant I am
    friendly with who takes Amex and find out what the story is.
    
    I've seen too many tiny shops that accept Amex to believe all these
    horror stories.
    
    Amex says that if a merchant claims to accept the Amex card, they
    MUST do so without strings attached.  But we all know that many
    merchants either pressure you to use another card or charge extra.
    
    As for Amex's new Optima card - the word from Amex (I called today)
    is that it will be accepted just like an Amex card.  I don't know
    if the percentage taken off the top is any different - I'll see
    if I can find out about that too.

    					Steve

>   There is no link between the bank cards (MC/Visa) and Amex.  Merchants
>   are not forced to accept Amex just because they take MC/Visa.

Exactly!

>   I've seen too many tiny shops that accept Amex to believe all these
>   horror stories.
    
Agreed.

>   Amex says that if a merchant claims to accept the Amex card, they
>   MUST do so without strings attached.  But we all know that many
>   merchants either pressure you to use another card or charge extra.
    
That's what you get for shopping at all those exclusive places. Bradlee's
and the five-and-dime don't differentiate according to card. :-) 

Just received my Optima "invitation" yesterday. 13.5% sound like a good rate 
but then I haven't looked into it all that much.

        Mike

RE < Note 310.26 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >

> 1a. Green AMEX cards must *always* be paid in full each month.

Not always true.  You can get a "Sign & Travel" agreement when you purchase
airline tickets or (I think) other travel tickets that allows you to spread
the payments over a set number of months.  I did this once (can't remember
whether a finance charge was involved), and believe it is still available,
though I suppose that may change with the appearance of the Optima card...

							-- Nina

    Watch out for "sign&travel" agreements with Amex!  The last time
    I took a long trip, I charged the tickets on the Amex card (since
    it has no limit - it was too big for my Masterplastic card), by
    phoning the travel agent and telling them to do so, figuring I would
    pay the Amex bill as soon as it showed up.  Somehow, this appeared
    as a "sign&travel" bill instead, though I don't know if the travel
    agent did me this dubious favor or if Amex did.  The result was
    that I had to pay the service charge even though I paid the bill
    in full the day I received it -- not what I was expecting!  I had
    never even heard of the "sign&travel" business before, and certainly
    didn't intentionally charge it that way.  I get the feeling that
    it is the DEFAULT for airline tickets if you don't tell them NOT
    to, but have been too busy to check this out.  If that is the case,
    it is a real "gotcha", since the alternative to charging plane tickets
    would be to show up at the travel agency in person (they are thirty
    miles from here....) bearing mounds of $100's, or write a very huge
    check which they would not credit until it cleared.  Bah.

    It sounds as if you got "taken".  I wouldn't *ever* pay a bill because
    a travel agent made a mistake.  In your situation, I would have
    disputed the service charge and told Amex to go argue with the travel
    agent about who got to eat it.
    
    I don't mean to tell you what you 'should' have done, though.  Is
    there something special about disputing Amex's billing?
    
    Bob

                I have had to contact (by phone) Amex customer service a
        couple of times. Once was for a charge that was applied and the
        merchandise not shipped, and the other was a time when the
        merchant didn't put it on the multi payment plan as I asked.
        Both times the person I spoke to was VERY helpful, and
        everything came out right. On the multi payment one, I didn't
        know it was wrong until the bill came in. I called, they changed
        it, and told me to ignore the bill I had and wait for the next
        one to come in (I got an extra month that way!).
                
                The point to all this is that if you have a problem,
        call them! They are very helpful in straightening things out to
        your satisfaction.
                
                /s/     Bob

    [I don't want to get into AMEX war stories, but I must provide a
    counter-example....]
    
    Perhaps they're good in working out problems with merchants, but I'm in
    my sixth month of trying to get them to acknowldge that they received a
    payment from me, despite the fact that I was returned a properly
    cancelled and recorded check. 

    When paying travel agents or moving van firms or car dealers, there
    is a better alternative to "mounds of $100" or checks that are not
    credited until they clear: ask your banker for "Treasurer Checks".
    These are as good as cash because they "clear" immediately, but
    safer because they are payable only to one party.
    
    	Rick
    	Merrill
    

I have twice had Amex improperly credit my payment to somebody else's
account.  In each case I got the photocopy of the cancelled check from the 
DCU and called up the Amex customer service number.  You read them the
number that they themselves printed onto the check during processing, and 
they can trace it.  In both cases it was cleared up within 24 hours.

Kind of annoying that they made the mistake in the first place, though.
Always check your monthly bill to make sure they show your last payment 
properly.

    Ah, but if it were that simple, I wouldn't have a problem.  
    
    You see, when I started to read the number, they claimed that I had the
    wrong "prefix".  When I inisited that indeed there was no number with
    an "NYC" prefix, but a "DAL" prefix instead, they told me to send
    copies of checks and other documents.  Now, I've been playing
    "where should I send the information this time"--I'm up to four
    different addresses.

    Considering that they're claiming that you didn't pay them, I would
    simply send them a "billing error notice" and enclose the statement
    and the cancelled check.  The address for reporting billing errors
    should be on the back of your statement.
    
    I'd let them do the paper-pushing to respond to you the way the
    credit laws require them to.
    
    Bob

    I would NEVER send the canceled check in to them. Send them a COPY
    of the check - front and back.  
    The canceled check is your legal document with their
    acknowledgement that they received payment. Don't let go of it!
    
    

    re .38:
    
    Oops, my mistake.  Yes, send them a copy of the cancelled check.
    Never ever trust your cancelled check to (a) USnail, or (b) someone
    who will gain by your losing it...
    
    Bob

    Of course, your bank is paranoid too and will have microfilmed both
    sides of the cancelled check before they sent it to you, so all
    is not lost.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams