Conference 7.286::digital

    re -.1
    
     I'd reply to this but I am ill at a customer site trying to mutate my
    germs in order to put my 40 billable hours through.
    -Mike Z.

    the answer is to only work 40 hours just like manangment does back in
    the office.  and when you are sick take the day off just like they do.
    
    just follow the example of your leaders, follow the policy, and you 
    can't go wrong.
    
    rich

    most of all those are easily answered by use of personal discretion/
    justification along with throwing in a little bit of common sense.
    
    One takes a sick if they are sick or truly feel they need a mental
    health day.  If want just wants a day off, that's vacation time
    usually, but at one's personal discretion one could take a sick day.
    
    Sick spouse/child/so or special function involving spouse/child/so
    should be worked out as one see's fit.  Either at personal discretion
    to take a sick/vaca day or to talk the issue out with one's
    manager/supervisor and see how they feel about the issue.  
    
    One could beg for the time off, but that would be really demeaning to
    personal character.
    
    You bring up a good question in regards to the recently veto'd bill
    regarding sick leaves, etc:  should DEC work out a plan that spells out
    exactly 1) when one is "authorized" to take a sick day, 2) the only
    appropriate times for vaca time, 3) the only appropriate times for comp
    time, and 4) when the issue doesn't fall into one of the above
    disciplines, one will have to take time w/o pay. 
    
    Do the responsible thing, do the right thing; I personnaly don't want
    anyone dictating how I use my vaca time, sick time, comp time (what's
    somp time anyway 8^) ).
    
    Ogre.

    How about sricter labor laws, as in Europe?
    

    I really don't think things are that much different than before.  When
    you had vacation time before, you had to fill out a time card---so
    that's not changed.  I think they want WC4's to fill out sick time as a
    way of tracking how much sick time Digital as a company uses as opposed
    to what an individual uses.  I don't think that's out of line for a
    company to want to see what it spends in sick time.   As for comp days 
    (a general example of a comp day for those who don't know is: say you
    work a 12 hour day for whatever reason.  Well you've worked 4 hours
    longer than what you were required to do.  So the manager will usually
    work something out with you like: working a half day the next day. 
    That way, it rounds out to you having worked two "eight hour days".
    I hope I explained that clearly!!).   In my opinion comp days will stay
    the same.  If you worked it out with your manager, than nothing would
    be different.  You wouldn't have to fill out a time card for that.  It
    is still up to you and the manager's descretion.  So basically, having
    you fill out a time card for sick time is exactly that --just for sick
    time.  What you deem necessary as 'sick' time is up to you.
    
    Renee

    I agree some policy is needed to clarify the use of sick days.
    You can probably guess what the policy would be by understanding
    that the sick days are reported to insurance companies and affect
    our rates for disability insurance.  There may be other insurance
    rates also affected by the number of sick days.  Consequently,
    it's important to just charge sick days when you're sick and
    make other arrangements with your manager for other situations.

    fwiw--During a recent PA my manager mentioned that the average sick
    time taken in our customer services branch was approx 4 days per year
    and his expectations were that if I stayed within the average I would
    be a three performer. (just doing my job).  I figure if I screen the 
    customers that I work with on a daily basis, kiss my wife once a week
    and avoid public transportation, I should be able to make the
    averages.

    Re: .6 "...sick days are reported to insurance companies and affect our
    rates for disability insurance."  This in not applicable for DEC.
    (Drum-roll please...) The new insurance company for DEC's new
    disability insurance program is... Digital Equipment.  That's right;
    there is now insurance company.  DEC is self-insuring it's disability
    programs (short-term and long-term).  Surprised?  Why wasn't this
    announced in any of the reams of literature produced on the new
    programs?  Think of all the implications to the legions of DECies who
    faithfully authorized payroll deductions for "insurance".  DEC simply
    holds onto the cash to pay "claims".  Now, making WC4 sick-time data
    visible, etc. takes on a new light...

    Is DEC self insured when it comes to Workmans Comp?  I'm just
    curious as to whether Liberty Mutual or DEC is picking up all
    the bills related to my RSI injury.

    in my org sick time is taken into account for performance reviews and
    your rating affects your pay adjustment so sick time can reflect on
    your raises.
    
    And my org doesn't accept single working parents with sick children
    that need their mother/father home to take care of them: the philosophy
    is find someone to watch the child(ren) so you can come to work.
    
    Also, if it's deemed too much sick time has been taken, we go on
    warning and personnel gets involved.
    
    Ogre.

I would expect that Salary is an expense, which shows up (don't laugh) on the
companies bottom line.   So is Insurance (even to a companies own fund).

Now, if every sick day comes out of the Short Term Disibility fund, that's
one less day of salary paid this quarter.

Any thoughts on that?

The problems illustrated in the base note signify a large problem for many 
employees who have children.  In other industrialized countries, time off is
granted for taking care of a sick family member, benefits provide day care and
elder care.  The family unit is the nucleus of our society and when that breaks
down further it will have ripple effects on business.  Digital and other large
employers should take the lead and develop benefit plans for child care and
allow time off for the care of sick family members.  

The fact that George Bush vetoed a vital bill signifies his ability to be so
out of touch with the average American.  



Bryan

Thanks for all the replies.  I haven't seen any answers.  Anyone out there 
afraid to speak up?

I seem to have read three types of replies:

	1) I'm salaried, it's always been this way.

	2) We work it out.

	3) I use comp time.

3) Officially, comp time don't exist, just to explain one of my reasons for
writing. 

2) Great for you, what about the rest?  (and BTW, this is what I would expect
as a minimum)

1) But you get overtime, so in the long run, do you make more than your base 
salary if this situation arises (assumes you have kids)?

Come on folks, let's open up a little... and where are all the callers Nasser 
always refers to?

At personnel's talk about this change a couple of months back, someone asked
what happens if you work 10 hr/day on Monday through Thursday, then you're out
sick on Friday?

The answer:  you report Friday as 8 hours of sick time.

This allows the company to total up how many hours are "lost" to sickness, but
there's no way to track the _extra_ hours that employees work.

That's what I don't like about the new system.  Myy extra working time isn't on
the record, but my sick days are.

Bob

>The problems illustrated in the base note signify a large problem for many 
>employees who have children.  In other industrialized countries, time off is
>granted for taking care of a sick family member, benefits provide day care and
>elder care.

	Wrong for the UK.

	Heather

    what do you want? you need examples of how others are doing it?
    sheeesch, somebody got to wipe your butt for you, too?
    
    I take sick time when I'm sick.
    
    I take vaca time for one day or more.
    
    I make a personal decision on mental health days for those times when
    stress peaks in my life and choose either a sick day or a vaca day.
    
      OR
    
    I attempt to work out something with my boss.
    
    If my kids/spouse have an activity that interrupts my day, I make
    another personal decision to either take some vaca time or attempt to
    work something out with my boss.
    
    If my children are sick (and my wife works), we (MY wife and I) work
    out who can take time off (or we split time off) and we take either a
    sick day (DEC) or personal excuse day (wife's company) and stay home to
    take care of our kids.  Just because I'm not sick and need a day off to
    take care of my vomitting, diarrhea-stricken, fever-laden,
    muscle-cramped kids does not mean I'm on vacation -- FAR FROM IT.
    
    If my spouse is sick, we discuss whether or not she would like me to stay 
    home with her to help her out and it is not vaca time either.
    
    That's how I work it.  What is so hard about those kind of decisions?
    
    Ogre.

    
    What may be so hard about this is that in some parts of this company,
    management seems to be using the new sick time policy to squeeze even
    more out of individual contributors.
    
    I know of one person who's manager told him that as a salaried
    employee, he is expected to work up to 50 hours a week with no extra
    compensation; he can also be expected to work the day after
    Thanksgiving, and the day before Christmas, with no comp time; but he
    can't move around his hours to get his car fixed in the middle of the
    day, he has to take a sick or vacation day.
    
    The problem has been stated many times before, most recently just a few
    replies back -- they want to measure all the time you're not here, but
    they don't give a whoopty-doo about all the time you are here. In the
    long run, they'll get what they measure -- in this case, 40 hours of
    work/sick/vacation time per week, and not a minute more...
    

    I don't believe that people like to respond to "hypothetical"
    situations.  Why don't you state your problem clearly and we go from
    there?
    
    In my case, I now report my sick time according to the revision in the
    policy.  My manager has not said anything about it to me, he doesn't
    define what is sick time and what is not.  And I presume that he gets
    some kind of report.  That's it, nothing more.
    
    I presume that you also have a manager, right?  How're things between
    the two of you?  Maybe that's the REAL problem.

.16>    what do you want? you need examples of how others are doing it?

I don't _need_ anything, Reg.  I'm just posing a question.  This included 
specific instances of a person's performance record and the situations I 
posed.  I didn't ask for generic rules by which you operate.

.16>    sheeesch, somebody got to wipe your butt for you, too?
    
Thanks for the offer, Reg, but I can handle it fine, thanks.

.17>    What may be so hard about this is that in some parts of this company,
.17>    management seems to be using the new sick time policy to squeeze even
.17>    more out of individual contributors.
    
Yeah, the real reasons haven't been communicated in my opinion.  I never used 
to think about this much, except that if I dropped below 50 hours, I'd feel 
kind of guilty.  Most of my sick time in the past was usually a result of the 
hours and stress.  I'm rethinking my attitude now.  That's it, it's a new 
preventive medicine type approach.  Knowing that we have limited sick time,
we'll work less in order to care for ourselves better.  I _LIKE_ it! 

.18>    Hi, me again!!  I disagree that the base note is about taking family
.18>    time off.  The way I read it, she is upset that now she has to report
.18>    her sick time and she is concerned how that will effect comp time and
.18>    vacation time.  I agree with the notes that say its not that difficult

Just to set things straight, I am a male, I am a single father, and the base 
note situations may be based on fact, but none involve me.  However, they 
could affect me.  I'm just concerned about the direction we are taking and the
behavior that will be fostered by these rules.  To the best of my knowledge,
comp time does not exist within Digital.  Hourly -> overtime.  Salaried ->
expected, and considered to be compensated in base pay. 

.18>    time.  Regarding managers who are abusing the new system,  I don't
.18>    think this applies for the base noter since she has obviously had the
.18>    comp time, vacation, and so on before.  Its pretty sad if there are

"She" said, in "her" life prior to Digital these options were available.  
Digital didn't have comp time, had unlimited sick time, and no reporting of 
sick time required for WC4's.
    
.18>    family time leave.  However, my understanding of it from what I've seen
.18>    on TV is that the family time leave is for people who need to care for
.18>    relatives with long term illness, not the one/two days here or there
.18>    when the kids catch a virus.  So taking one/two days off as it is here

And my understanding is that there currently is a family care policy under 
consideration within Digital that looks at dependent care issues, whether 
child or older relative.  I don't know the details, but if they are addressing
these issues, perhaps it would have been better to wait until that was defined
prior to issuing the new sick leave policy. 

.19>    I don't believe that people like to respond to "hypothetical"
.19>    situations.  Why don't you state your problem clearly and we go from
    
Well, that appears to very true in Digital, because no one seems to have the 
_foresight_ to understand the impact of some of the decisions being made.  It 
requires a little more than the simple reactive capabilities of an amoeba.

.19>    define what is sick time and what is not.  And I presume that he gets
.19>    some kind of report.  That's it, nothing more.

It was always my understanding that if one were on sick leave for three days 
or more, you were required to produce a note from your physician or a 
prescription to prove you were under the care of a doctor.  How would this be 
handled if you were caring for a sick child and claiming sick?  In addition, I 
work from home very often.  If my son is ill, I usually manage to accomplish 
75% of a normal day from home, which in my case would work out to only working 
6-9 hours on those days.  That's probably true of many WC4's.  So I guess we 
just say we are working from home.  What I can't do is meetings, internal or 
external, respond to phone calls without logging off every couple of hours, 
checking voicemail and returning calls, etc.
    
.19>    I presume that you also have a manager, right?  How're things between
.19>    the two of you?  Maybe that's the REAL problem.

Yes, I have a manager.  No, it's irrelevant.  The question was posed in 
relation to Digital's current policies and the inability of those newly 
implemented policies to address the needs of those affected.  If you think, as 
I suspect Digital management does, that this new policy will address the 
company's lack of profitability, think again.  The problem is well known in 
the field, but management doesn't seem to have a clue.

    Re the following,

>>             <<< Note 2179.20 by NEWVAX::SGRIFFIN "DTN 339-5391" >>>
>>                    -< Policy decisions made in a vacuum? >-
>>    
>>Well, that appears to very true in Digital, because no one seems to have the 
>>_foresight_ to understand the impact of some of the decisions being made.  It 
>>requires a little more than the simple reactive capabilities of an amoeba.
>>

    Steve,
    	I appreciate your concern.  I also have them.  I think that you
    mistake peoples lack of "_foresight_ to understand" for a realization
    that these decisions are way beyond our control.
    	I voiced my concern over problems with LTD and was told (in a round
    about way) to shut up.  In times like this, we are at the disadvantage,
    while the corporation has the advantage.  I suspect the situation will
    be reversed when the job market opens up again.

    	As for reporting Sick Time for WC4;  I really don't care, my
    manager always knew when I was sick, and it was part of my review. 
    Nothing has changed (for me).
    	Now the question of what do we use sick time for comes to play. 
    Keep in mind these are my beliefs, and wish it were plainly written.

    	1.  Illness or accident.			YES
    	2.  Mental Health days				NO
    		Mental health days are what vacation is for.
    	3.  Comp Time					NO
    		That is up to your manager and you and is considered
    		compensation and not vacation or sick.
    	4.  Child Sickness				NO
    		I personally take vacation, or go without pay, since
    		I am not the one sick.  In fact, just last week I took
    		vacation for my youngest child who had an operation.

    	I don't believe we have lost anything in reality, only emotionally. 
    We are now being watched closer, and as a result we feel we have lost
    something.  I feel it is a bad move on the companies part.

    Jim Morton

    Base noter!!  I must apologize for calling you a "she"!!!! :):) Sorry!!
    
    Comp time is available here at DEC because I have it and many others I
    know have it as well.  You have to work it out with your manager.

    PS.   I forgot to add that I don't think the sick time is "limited".
    Its still 13 weeks, which is essentially what it was before.  Now all
    they are asking is that you record it.  I don't think this is to
    monitor certain individuals (although I'm sure some managers out there
    will) it is for the company to keep track of its sick time.
    
    

    and like I said before, my management uses their discretion to make
    note of above "normal" sick time in our performance reviews while I
    have heard of other groups where the management doesn't care (to
    apoint: the line is drawn when projects are not completed on time).
    
    If DEC is changing it's policies, it's time to start having some kind
    of definitive format as to what is allowable and what is not; yes-
    something spelled out in black and white.
    
    And as far as I'm concerned, any management that reviews an employee
    adversly because of too much sick time used without knowing/being the
    employee and riding on assumptions/associations (about their own lives)
    is out of order.
    
    Sick kids = my sick time. period.
    mental health = sick time. period. iam not going away anwhere to have
                   fun.
    vacatime = fun time for the whole family (whatever constitutes your
               version of a family)
    
    Ogre.

    > If DEC is changing its policies its time to start having some kind of
    > definite format as to what is allowable and what is not - yes something
    > spelled out in black and white.
    
      From the disability benefits bullitin;
    
      "The sick time hours reported will not be charged against any accrual
    account. Instead, these hours will provide data to the company for use
    in determining our overall costs for paid sick time-off for all
    employees and support the company's effort to operate our business more
    cost efficiently. Digital managers will be responsible for viewing
    absenteeism as part of the overall supervision of an employy's time and
    performance, and to manage the process accordingly."
    
       

Re: a few back on 13 weeks

The only place I have seen 13 weeks is STD.  Is there something that says WC4 
employees have up to thirteen weeks of sick leave per year?

.25>    account. Instead, these hours will provide data to the company for use
.25>    in determining our overall costs for paid sick time-off for all
.25>    employees and support the company's effort to operate our business more
.25>    cost efficiently. Digital managers will be responsible for viewing
    
Well, that is a nice thought.  I think the reality is, if this company starts 
treating its salaried employees like hourly employees when it comes to sick 
time, the following will happen:

	1) we will become very efficient at managing our sick time
	2) the productivity will drop precipitously.  If I'm going to be
	   using vacation or leave without pay for these type of situations,
	   you can bet I'm not going to offer someone help when I hear about
	   a problem in a notes conference, or in a conversation with a 
	   colleague.  And as often happens, when people come to me wanting
	   me to drop what I'm doing and work night and day on a special
	   project, I'll just say, "Sorry, I'm too busy doing my flat 40
	   hours a week."  You want to treat me like I'm hourly, you better
	   pay me hourly for overtime, weekends and holidays, and I want my
	   dinner paid for when I work more than 8 hours straight.

The new Digital, penny wise and pound foolish.

The Washington Post had an article about this subject a few Sundays back.  It 
is becoming a problem in a number of companies.

I'm a WC4 employee, so these policies could potentially affect me.  What I 
find amazing is that this company can entrust me with the responsibility for 
the success or failure of programs worth hundreds of millions of dollars, but 
I can't decide when I should be at work and when I should be at home.  Go 
figure.

    the way I always heard was that WC4's had unlimited sick time.  
    
    I think it's just wonderful that if my back goes out again, I'll be
    able to collect 100% of my pay just like my WC4 commrades.  You WC4's
    who think you've got it bad, you try supporting a family on 80% of your
    pay; it doesn't sound bad except when one is living
    paycheck-to-paycheck and after 2 weeks at 80%, you'll feel the crunch!
    
    Also, if you think productivity is going to drop because now you just
    can't take a day off when you want because you put in 9,10,12 hour day
    (your fault, not mine)- think of why you used to get treated so
    shabbily by the WC2's when you went to them to get something done and
    then you took off early and didn't come back for the results for a
    week!  ( the you is not directed at anyone in particular, please don't
    take offense.)  Now all will get a taste of the medicine that only used
    to be dished out to peons.
    
    However, old habits are hard to break and if there are managers who let
    their people take sick days and not report them, there will still be.
    Nothing will change unless the "empowered" people make it so.
    
    Ogre.

    
    
    I don't understand the argument that says, basically, "if you make me
    report my time off you better not expect me to do my job". If it takes
    me 40, 50, 60 or more hours a week to get my job done now that I am a
    WC 4 (I was a wc 2 for many years) thats what I do, thats what I did
    before we reported sick time. 
    
    Do people think anything in this string of notes is a personnel issue?
    If yes, what *actual* problem did you read in this string? I've been
    through it twice and I haven't seen an actual issue that has happened.
    
    If I were a manager of employees who told me "If you make me report
    sick time I won't do anything that makes me be here more than 40 hours"
    I would make sure I was compensating you on your overall performance,
    just as I would be for someone who puts in the hours needed to get the
    job done.  
    
    It seems simple, its the responsibility of the manager, together with
    the employee, to establish guidelines of the way the work needs to get
    done in their group. If you have a working relationship with your
    manager this is easy, if you don't have a working relationship with
    your manager thats a bigger issue than sick time reporting.
    

    I think you just hit the nail on the head although I would report it
    as: management needs to have a working relationship with the employee
    as well as vice versa.  
    
    Ogre.
    

>    I don't understand the argument that says, basically, "if you make me
>    report my time off you better not expect me to do my job".

	I don't think anyone has said that. In fact, I think people
	have explicitly said that the would do *just* their job, but
	no more than that.

	A person's work and compensation are based upon what a person
	of that job classification can be expected to do in 40 hours.
	But many folks do stuff that is above and beyond that. An 
	unexpected problem comes up (that was not of your making).
	You hear a colleague having a problem and you take it upon 
	yourself to pitch in and help, since you have the appropriate
	expertise. You can probably think of many more examples
	of people doing things above and beyond what their job description
	says. This stuff is extra, and is not compensated for. People 
	do it because they want to, for any of a number of reasons.

	I think that what you are hearing some people say is that if
	those reasons to go above and beyond are removed, it should 
	not be unexpected that the number of people putting in extra
	effort will decrease.

						Tom_K

    re.30 In my note i spoke for myself talking about what I do. If I see 
    someone having a problem I can help out with (in notes or in my site or
    even outside the company) I help. Are you saying because *you* are
    asked to report sick time now your entire attitude towards helping
    others has changed? How would you rate someone who told you, in the
    middle of a job, "my 8 hours are up for today I have to go now". 
    What has changed for you personally with this new policy?
    And, what does "would do *just* their job, but no more than that" mean?
    I heard statements like that before the new policy was implemented and
    I didn't think much of the people who said it then (wc2's and 4's) and
    I have to say I haven't changed my opinion.                    

    
    re -.1
    
    
      I think the problem lies in the perception that it is suddenly
    very important to the company to know when a person is not here,
    but not important to know/recognize  when an employee is putting 
    in extra time...
    
    

    
    
    	Why is it that Digital needs to have 3 wage classes? Is there
    	any real reason to continue to have wage class 2 and 3?
    
    	John

    re-1  Its always been very important, from the point of view of the
    company, to know when a person is not here. As far as putting in extra
    time - its very important to the company that people put in extra time
    to get the job done and the person/people that should be recognizing 
    the extra hours have to be the direct manager and the
    business the person belongs to. The "company" can only
    recognize these type of extra efforts this way and
    management/individual businesses are responsible for this type of
    recognition to the individual. 
    
    Shouldn't the people who manage our disability programs know exactly
    how much sick time *actually* costs this company? If not, why try to
    manage any piece of disability? Is there a better way to track the
    costs? Wouldn't it be a problem if this company, now that sick time is
    reported, realizes that sick time is much higher at DEC than other
    companies? How would we know this if it wasn't tracked?   

    34 was a reply to 32. Sorry about that.

    
    	It is a good idea for the company to determine as accurately
    	as possible how much time is being charged to sick time.
    	The question comes about, what will the company do with that
    	information? Hopefully, something good, but I'm not too optimistic.

    I have been on both sides of the coin at DEC.  About a year and a half
    ago (as an engineer) I was invited to find another job.  I did, in a
    DEC warehouse wage class II.  As an eng. salaried I was expected to 'do
    my job', sick time 'didn't matter' but it was weighed at reviews and in
    overall performance.   One 'could take all the time they wanted', but
    in fact of course couldn't.
    
    As a WC II my sick time was recorded and watched.  Any difference? Yes,
    when it was recorded I knew what the max expected was, when it wasn't I
    had no idea but had the sense that I have better not use it
    inappropriately.  
    
    Now that the policy has changed its no different except that the sick
    time is 'open ended'.  As we all know we are watched and measured in an
    overall sense.  If one generally does a good job, shows up to work on
    time and has a 'good attitude' the sick time used is not a problem.
    
    For the Wage Class IV's who now have their sick time watched, welcome to
    the 'real' world, but, believe me I know how you feel.  Remember, your
    sick time was watched all along anyway, now its just being written
    down.
    
    
    Jeff

    The big question still remains: will ALL sick time get reported?
    Ex: (real or not) one calls in sick and the manager says "that's okay,
    don't worry about the sick time- take the time for yourself". No sick
    time is reported ( although I can never see that scenario happening?).
    
    I get the impression that many more people than some of us expect are
    getting sick days for free?  I mean, would someone really walk up to
    their boss and say, "gee, I think I'll take tomorrow as a sick day,
    okay?" and boss replying "sure!"  If sick time is impossible to plan
    (unless one of those personal decisions are made), how could anybody
    get free sick time?  good-ole-boy-network in progress?
    
    This issue also seems to prove that sick days are frowned upon at
    review time and the less sick time one reports, the less black marks
    against them.
    
    Ogre.

>    re.30 In my note i spoke for myself talking about what I do. If I see 
>    someone having a problem I can help out with (in notes or in my site or
>    even outside the company) I help. 

	Great! I think I do the same.

>   Are you saying because *you* are asked to report sick time now your 
>   entire attitude towards helping others has changed? 

	No.

>   How would you rate someone who told you, in the middle of a job, "my 8 
>   hours are up for today I have to go now". 

	Depends. Is this a job that one normally works at 8 hours a day?
	Did that person give me 8 good hours of quality work? If so, 
	what quarrel do I have with the person? Maybe that person
	has an after hours commitment to be met. It is probably none
	of my business *why* the person has to leave, but if the normal
	working hours call for 8 hours/day, and the person works 8 hours,
	why should I rate them based upon time? I should rate them upon
	the work they did. If the job was one that would take a competent
	person 8 hours, and they left after 8 hours but were still "in the
	middle", I'd probably rate them poorly. If it was a job that normally
	took a competent person 32 hours, and they were "in the middle"
	after only eight hours, I'd likely rate them highly.
	
>    What has changed for you personally with this new policy?

	For me, personally, not a whole lot. 

>    And, what does "would do *just* their job, but no more than that" mean?

	Just what it said. for example, if John's job is to deal with 
	product X, it might mean that John will now stick to working on 
	product X, and if a colleague working on product Y (which John 
	has knowledge of) is having trouble, not volunteering to help 
	that person out, knowing that he'd have to stay late to make up 
	the time lost from his "regular job" to help the colleague. In the
	past, John might not have minded staying late so that he could
	help his colleague. If sick time reporting is misused, John
	might feel differently.

>    I heard statements like that before the new policy was implemented and
>    I didn't think much of the people who said it then (wc2's and 4's) and
>    I have to say I haven't changed my opinion.                    

	If you are my waiter at a restaurant, and I've been your long time
	"regular customer", and you've always gone out of your way to 
	give me special service, but all of a sudden my tip to you 
	decreases even though your service hasn't changed, how long do you 
	think it will be before you stop going out of your way for me, 
	and just treat me like everyone else?

					Tom_K

	BTW, it seems to me that the requirement for reporting of
	WC4 time should have been implemented transparent to WC4
	employees.

	WC2 employees always had to report sick time, but had a limit.
	For them, the change was that the limit went away. So simply
	tell the WC2 employees that the limit has gone away. I suspect
	that there would be no complaints.

	WC4 employees had a defacto requirement to report sick time
	to their supervisors, since that supervisor has to know where 
	to find you and what you're doing. So why not simply tell the 
	supervisors that they now need to total that info, and send it 
	up the chain? No muss, no fuss. The WC4s would never even have
	to know...

					Tom_K

    .40  I agree with all except for the last bit.  Do I understand that a
    WC4 would only have to report to their manager/boss sick time and let
    them do with it as the see fit?  Why not/hasn't that person been
    reporting his/her individual sick time to DEC?  
    
    If it's up to the manager to tabulate all sick time (they should have a
    record for everyone) and batch submit it to DEC weekly/monthly/etc,
    then why can't that manager do that for all wage classes?
    
    This whole issue is so common-sensical that I can't believe we are
    having this conversation.  If one is sick, one reports it as DEC wants
    them to.  what is anyone attempting to hide?
    
    Ogre.

     re.39 
    > If you are my waiter at a restaurant, and i've been your long time
    > "regular customer", and you've always gone out of your way to give me
    > special service, but all of a sudden my tip to you decreases even
    > though your service hasn't changed, how long do you think it will be
    > before you stop going out of your way for me, and just treat me like
    > everyone else? 
    
      My first thought would be "something happened" and I would reflect on
    myself to understand if my service had changed. Then, knowing it wasn't
    something I did, I would try to understand why you wern't giving me the
    "regular tip". If I were in a position to understand your situation and
    came to the conclusion that you were no longer bringing in *any* funds
    to maintain your household, so much so that you had to ask members of
    your family to leave because you just couldn't afford to take care of
    them any longer, I would simply appreciate the fact that you were still
    my customer and you would be treated as I have always treated you.
       
    > it seems to me that the requirements for reporting of WC4 time should
    > have been implemented transparent to WC4 employees.
    
    People in here are going to think you were a plant for me making a
    statement like this.
     
    If this was done (reporting behind the backs of employees about
    employees taking sick time) what do you think the reaction would be
    when we WC4's found out (this is Digital we would have found out)? 
     
    

>
>    re-1  Its always been very important, from the point of view of the
>    company, to know when a person is not here. 

But the problem with this reporting scheme is that it tells who WASN'T here,
not who ISN'T here, since the reporting is done after the sick time.

>    Shouldn't the people who manage our disability programs know exactly
>    how much sick time *actually* costs this company? 


If I am out one day with the flu, and do not do anything with the disability
programs, why is it necessary for someone to 'manage' that fact in the
disability program?

>    costs? Wouldn't it be a problem if this company, now that sick time is
>    reported, realizes that sick time is much higher at DEC than other
>    companies? How would we know this if it wasn't tracked?   

It seems to me that if the amount of sick time being taken impacts Digital, 
that fact should be already available and should have nothing to do with
how much sick time is taken at other companies.  I do not see why one has to
look to other companies to see if Digital has a problem.

-Joe

>    This whole issue is so common-sensical that I can't believe we are
>    having this conversation.  If one is sick, one reports it as DEC wants
>    them to.  what is anyone attempting to hide?
    
Nothing.  It goes like this:  If I am sick and work anyway, do I get "extra
credit"?  Probably not - it just does not count as sick time.  So if they're
trying to keep track of our health this is not the way to do it.

Suppose I am sick and take a day off but work extra hours the next few days
to make up the time.  Do I get "extra credit" for this?  Does it negate the
sick time that I reported?  Should I simply not report the sick time and call
it a wash?  Does it matter if it is all in the same calendar week?  This one
is a harder to answer.

Suppose I work extra hours during the week *before* I get sick, and then take a
sick day.  I've already worked my 40 hours.  Now what?  Suppose I'm not
really sick but take it as a "comp" day?

If I put in at least 2000 hours a year in spite of any illness, do
I still have to go on record for some number of sick days just
because they happen to fall on weekdays?

These scenarios can go on and on.  The common objection throughout is that
the "bureaucracy" is very interested in keeping track of the hours we *don't*
work but does not seem to care about the hours we *do* work!

-steve-

    re. 43 I'm not real clear why the statements were challenged by you
    given what you said, but this one seems to hit the nail right on.
    
    > It seems to me that if the amount of sick time being taken impacts
    > Digital, that fact should already be available
    
    Well, before this reporting of WC4 sick hours nobody knew. How, IYO,
    could we verify conclutions without data to conclude by?
    

    re.44 Do you have an actual problem with the reporting that can't be
    worked with your manager? 

    re: wage class 2 + 3
    
    	As far as I can tell, WC3 is found mostly in Field Service. When on
    standby, you typically work your normal shift unless you get called
    out. It is not unusual to get called out after working your normal
    shift and not get home till the early morning hours of the following 
    day. As WC3, you get to go home, and get a reasonable amount of sleep 
    before having to go back to work. 
    
    	Yes, you do get paid for the part of your normal 8-5 shift while 
    you're home sleeping, but most would rather give up standby than take 
    advantage of this supposed benefit. Unfortunately, you are not normally
    able to refuse standby.
    
    	The alternative (paid for what you work) is not very attractive
    either. If you don't set it up like this, people would come to work with 
    little to no sleep when they worked all sorts of standby hours. Keeping in 
    mind that these people are in company cars, on company time, one bad 
    accident due to lack of sleep could cost the company a hell of a lot more 
    that what it now costs them.
    
    	Ray

    If recording the hours worked by WC4 is such a big deal, why don't
    y'all start filling out time cards reporting all the hours you work
    during the week just like us WC2's?  What? don't want to lie on a time
    card and get fired?  couldn't live with your conscience?
    
    Really, if comp time is such a big deal, I don't see why it can't be
    worked out with your manager with both of you keeping records of your
    hours worked and taking sufficicent time off when needed.  No one
    should be using comp time for sick time! if one is sick it's sick time.
    
    Ogre.

re .41

	Yeah, I'd rather have everyone, WC2/WC3/WC4, all simply tell
	their managers when they take sick time. If somebody is
	abusing it, the manager should handle it. And at the 
	appropriate intervals, the manager rolls up the info
	and sends it up the chain.

re .42

>    People in here are going to think you were a plant for me making a
>    statement like this.

	Honest folks, I've never met him! But he seems like a nice guy :-)

>   If this was done (reporting behind the backs of employees about
>   employees taking sick time) what do you think the reaction would be
>   when we WC4's found out (this is Digital we would have found out)? 

	Sure we'd have found out. But I'd think that if the information
	moving up the chain was simply roll ups, rather than data on
	individuals, no one would care.


					Tom_K

    re.49 the data is rollups the way corporate sees it - managers get
    individual data.

	So since managers should always have known anyway, what's
	the difference?

					Tom_K

    Well, it took 51 responses to bring us to this. The difference is,
    basically, its now rolled up to corporate. Some groups didn't ask WC4's
    to report sick time in any way, some managers in some groups tracked
    this information on their own. Now its all tracked the same way for all
    employees.

        Re the following;
>>                      <<< Note 2179.48 by KELVIN::BURT >>>
>>                            -< time clocks anyone? >-
>>
>>    If recording the hours worked by WC4 is such a big deal, why don't
>>    y'all start filling out time cards reporting all the hours you work
>>    during the week just like us WC2's?  What? don't want to lie on a time
>>    card and get fired?  couldn't live with your conscience?
>>    
>>    Ogre.
>>
    Reg,
    	Why does it appear you are upset at WC4's?  If you really do have a
    problem, why?
    	I started as a WC2 in the 70's, what a bummer!  I did field service
    work, and the pay was just over min wage.  I moved up fast, and made
    WC3 in 2 yrs, a few years later I made WC4.  I can sympathize with the
    plight of WC2, but I never begrudged a WC4 for their benefits, nor
    thought it was the right thing to do.  I just worked to acquire what I
    thought was better.
    	Now it appears that all that I worked for is disappearing.  I
    busted my rear, working 60 to 120 hrs a week in the field.  I spent an
    extra 3 to 4 hrs a day for a year in prep for my T7 board.  I told my
    wife, I was sorry I had to work so hard but it would pay off later.
    	I still never see my kids, and have sacrificed my family for this
    company, and what do I have?  Dwindling benefits, smaller raises, and
    the threat of being laid off.  I spent my family time for this company,
    expecting loyalty back.  MAD! Heck yes I'm mad! Digital will never show
    me the loyalty I and others have shown them.
    	Reg, didn't you say earlier that you thought WC4's had unlimited
    Sick time.  Well you were close.  It used to be 90 days for any
    particular illness, before going on disability.  That was changed a few
    years back.  I worked hard for that and many other bennies, that have
    been taken from me.
    	Reg, what I see you doing, is what is called CLASS ENVY.  You seem
    to be upset at some who have special bennies, that you don't.  How
    about channeling those feelings into changing your job into one that
    will give you those bennies.  Instead of wishing those who have them,
    loose them.  I did and many people I know did.  I also won't stand by
    quietly as my hard work gets taken away.  I may not get very far, but I
    will fight.

    Jim Morton

    Thanks Jim, you put it most eloquently.  I started out as a WC2
    secretary; fortunately at a time in DEC's history where if one was
    willing to put forth the effort you were able to progress to higher
    level jobs no matter what your formal education.
    
    I eventually worked my way into a WC3 position and am now a WC4.  I
    wouldn't dream of looking down my nose at a WC2 person either, but I
    also feel I worked hard to get to my current level and it feels like
    so much of what I strived for is going down the drain.
    
    I don't have a problem with reporting sick time; but I guess I'm like
    a lot of other folks......all too often I've been hit over the head
    with the "official policy" stick while watching others slide thru the
    cracks.  Our CSC was hit with some sort of "bug" a few weeks ago;
    because a few people insisted on coming into work when they were ob-
    viously quite ill, the "bug" picked up speed and spread thru the CSC
    like one of those SW viruses.  I took a few sick days but the first
    meds prescribed by my doctor didn't kick in; I came back to work to
    find many of my co-workers still ill on coming down with the "bug",
    so I caught it again.  I wound up taking 40 hours of vacation time,
    rather than deal with the new sick time policy because I knew my PA
    would be impacted if I really declared all the time as sick time.
    
    With all the uncertainty facing us, I would like to let my vacation
    time add up; I'm probably going to need it in the future.  I felt
    bad enough flat on my back with a temp of 102; knowing I was also
    chewing up 40 hours of vacation didn't make me feel any better :-(
    
    Karen
    

    If working all these amounts of amazing hours per week is a real
    concern to anyone, write them down on your timecard. I get one as part
    of paycheck, don't you? Document Document Document. So it's not "paid"
    as a WC2 or WC3, big deal, write it in anyway. Point to it with pride at
    PA time.
    
    Did anyone think that *managers* are WC4 too? There are good ones and
    bad one, I've worked for a bunch of each in 15 years. Sometimes they
    may not know who was out sick because THEY were "out sick". Out here in
    the field, we WC3's viewed the change as simply accurate reporting. 
    
    As for managers using sick time as input to PA's, I feel that if you do
    not establish patterns, and do not abuse the system, you should not be 
    penalized for using a portion of your established benefits. If you
    abuse, you should pay. 
    
    "Steve used up all his Sick-time, so today he called in dead."
    
    .mike.

.27>    Also, if you think productivity is going to drop because now you just
.27>    can't take a day off when you want because you put in 9,10,12 hour day
.27>    (your fault, not mine)

Well, it's not my fault if there are simply not enough people in the company 
to get the business critical activities involved in keeping us afloat 
accomplished without extending ourselves.  Yeah, I could tell my colleagues on 
another project, "No, I don't think I want to work evenings and weekends 
helping you meet your deadlines."  But I'm not like that by nature, however,  
if I feel like I'm being micromanaged and not being treated like a
professional, I may resort to something like that. 

.27>                          - think of why you used to get treated so
.27>    shabbily by the WC2's when you went to them to get something done and

Sorry, I've never experienced this, but maybe that's due to the fact that I'm 
a professional and I treat everyone else as I hope they will treat me.
    
.28>    I don't understand the argument that says, basically, "if you make me
.28>    report my time off you better not expect me to do my job". If it takes
    
I guess the paradox between allowing "unlimited sick time" and management 
deciding when and how I use it is what bothers me.  Many companies allow 
employees to convert unused sick time to vacation (not usually one for one, 
more like, two for one to minimize people coming to work sick and spreading 
disease in order to get extra vacation time).  I've suggested this before, why 
not tell us we have X weeks of sick time, use it as you see fit, and if you 
don't use it by the end of the year, you can convert it to vacation at a rate 
of two sick days for one vacation day?

Maybe I should start calling in sick on those days when my sinuses are going 
crazy and my head is throbbing instead of taking a sinus medication?  Or at 
the first suspicion that I am coming down with something, I'll call in sick.  
I don't do that, because most times when I feel like that, I know it will pass 
and I'm not contagious, so I come in anyway.  I'd rather save it for when my 
son needs me at home, and I'd prefer not to use vacation, since I'll be doing 
at least some work that day anyway.

.28>    Do people think anything in this string of notes is a personnel issue?
    
I think it's a personnel _policy_ issue that needs to be addressed, and clear 
guidelines issued about what sick leave is, when/how it is to may used, and
how much may be used without impacting ones PA.  I had mono 9 years ago.  Once
I used up my sick leave (don't remember about whether I had to use vacation
also), I went on STD, for a total of 4 weeks.  Then I worked half days for
another 3-4 weeks so I could take a nap in the afternoon.  Once I returned to
work full time, I had no sick time, so management cautioned me about returning
from STD before I was really well enough to resume working (mono takes about a
year for total recovery).  Know what my doctor said was the prime factor in 
coming down with mono?  The 12-18 hour days I had been working, seven days a 
week for the previous couple of weeks trying to meet a critical deadline for 
the program.

.28>    done in their group. If you have a working relationship with your
.28>    manager this is easy, if you don't have a working relationship with

I don't have any problem with my manager and we have a very good working 
relationship.  I don't have any problem with this issue and my _current_ 
manager, because he knows the kind of hours I put in and the quality of my 
work.  But my manager could change, and I want to know that I will be 
uniformly treated with respect, including trusting in me to make the decision 
when I will use sick leave.
    
.30>	not be unexpected that the number of people putting in extra
.30>	effort will decrease.

Thanks, Tom.

.31>    even outside the company) I help. Are you saying because *you* are
.31>    asked to report sick time now your entire attitude towards helping
.31>    others has changed? How would you rate someone who told you, in the

I've always reported my sick time, but there seems to be a move toward 
measuring my performance as though I was an hourly employee, and if I use up 
my sick time, I don't get paid.  If I have truly unlimited sick time, let me 
decide how to use it, including caring for a sick child.  Otherwise, 
compensate me for each hour I work.

.34>    company, to know when a person is not here. As far as putting in extra
.34>    time - its very important to the company that people put in extra time
.34>    to get the job done and the person/people that should be recognizing 
.34>    the extra hours have to be the direct manager and the
.34>    business the person belongs to. The "company" can only
.34>    recognize these type of extra efforts this way and
.34>    management/individual businesses are responsible for this type of
.34>    recognition to the individual. 
    
Shall we get into the recognition discussion, again?  Maybe we should do away 
with COE, and let that money be used to compensate those who put in the extra 
effort directly in proportion to their effort, without political influences?

And if it is important to the company to know about sick time costs, why isn't
my sick time in SBS being rolled up?  It has always been reported there.  And 
now that corporate is monitoring this, will they look for trends like people 
getting sick from overextending themselves for lack of sufficient resources 
and do something to reduce/eliminate this cause of illness in the employee 
population?  Yeah, right.  No, their response will be, "Steve, you've been out 
sick for a total of three weeks in the past year, that's not acceptable, 
you're fired."   Doesn't matter that in addition to reporting my 120 hours of 
sick, I also worked 3000 hours that year, not 2000.  But why don't you report 
that 3000 hours?  Well, if I am in front of a customer 40 hours a week, and 
spend another 20 hours trying to get answers, resolve issues, etc., that 20 
hours is not billable.  So I put it down as admin time?  Come on.  The closest 
I can come in an SBS code is 110, Customer Relations Building.  Is that what 
it's called when you are trying to cut through the layers of Digital policy 
and process to get a customer's problem solved?

re:  .44 WIDGET::KLEIN

Good points.

.48>    If recording the hours worked by WC4 is such a big deal, why don't
.48>    y'all start filling out time cards reporting all the hours you work
.48>    during the week just like us WC2's?  What? don't want to lie on a time
.48>    card and get fired?  couldn't live with your conscience?
    
No Reg, it actually has to do with the fact that reporting hours over 40 
doesn't do anything for us.  I've often worked 60-80 hours in a week, seldom 
less than 50, but never reported more than 40 unless it was for separate 
projects where all my hours were directly billable.

    
    	re .47
    
    	Yes, I'm aware of the demands of working standby in Field
    	Service..I did it for 9 1/2 years. As a matter o fact, I
    	welcomed the standby and overtime pay..it helped us to put
    	together a down payment to buy our first house. Second shift
    	eventually eliminated much of the overtime.
    
    	The point I was trying to make was...do we need three different
    	wage classes? Why not just put everyone on salary? I suspect
    	that then some folks would be more understanding of other folks
    	reluctance to account for every hour not here, because we don't
    	always get paid for all the hours that we are here over and
    	above the forty required of us. Exceptions are WC4 standby, which
    	gets a set amount of call-in pay.
    
    	John

    Due to the nature of the job, it is against the labor laws to make the
    hourly employees jobs a salaried position.
    
    Look, I've worked a salaried position in the past.  I understand the
    frustations that type of work can put on a person.  I also understand
    the benifits of that type of work.
    
    I solved it for me.  I now work an hourly position.  It isn't that I
    haven't the ability to fill a salaried position.  I didn't like the
    "heat".  "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen."
    
    

    .53 Jim,
    
    I am NOT jealous!  I just don't see what the big stink is about WC4's
    reporting their sick time.  If someone uses sick time, it should be
    reported.  Doesn't sick time (past and present) somehow fall under STD?
    
    .54 Karen,
    
    Don't want it to affect your PA????!!!  This outrages me to think that
    some groups are letting sick time slide and others are holding 1 to 2
    days sicktime against people at PA time.  Someone has to come out and say 
    crystal clear if sick time is to be used against us or not [that's all 
    DEC employees equally across the board hahahhaha].  WC2's have been 
    living with that fear all along, it's about time the rest felt the burn.
    
    .55 Mike,
    
    I agree: document _all_ time.  I agree there is nothing so easy as to
    document the amount of time/hours one has spent at work/ on projects.
    It's a simple matter of CYA (always has been always will be).
    
    I also agree that with an unlimited amount of sick time, there is the
    chance for abuse.  And where there's abuse, it should be handled
    accordingly, no matter what wage class one is.
    
    .56 Steve,
    
    I am so [insert feeling] for you that your job required you to work so
    many hours while your family trickled along without knowing you.  It's
    also very [new feeling] that you acquired mono at one period in your
    life because of the long hours spent working.
    
    If I wasn't married with children, I too would probably be spending a
    ridiculous amount of time at work.  However, I chose for the family
    route and my family is much more important to me; it's is too important
    to me such that my children know their father and they know what it's
    like that both parents are there to help them when they need it all the
    time.
    
    [Back to Jim] Here is where a little bit of jealousy may exist with me
    in that people like Steve believe that WC4's should be measured
    differently than WC2's.  We all should be measured on the same scales
    and becausee one is a WC4 doesn't mean they get special attention!
    
    However, Steve, I do agree with one point: where's the kick back for
    unused sick time?  Why doesn't DEC reward those employess who don't use
    sick time? Either a bonus every 3/6/12 months or maybe allow us to
    trade sick time for vaca time?  It doesn't have to be 1 for 1 and,
    extra vaca time should be used up before the end of the next reward
    period.
    
    .58, I'm sorry, I missed writing down your name and by the time I got
    to this note I was starting to steam.
    
    My job expects me to be equal to WC4s, however....
    
    All,
    
    Lastly, I've said it before and I'll say it again: I get virtually no
    OT in my job.  It's just the way my group's mindset and work situation
    is set up.  We don't need to work an extraordinary amount of time to
    get the job done.  We're understaffed and doing multiple chores and
    there's alot of hussling going on.  However, somehow, we all manage to
    get accomplished in 8/40 hours what takes most people (apparently) 60+.
    Some people in my group work over 40, but not much over- definitely not
    60+/week.
    
    Plus, I don't see why it would be so critical for WC4 to put in so much
    extra time above what they would put in as a WC2?  Maybe a little bit
    of time depending on what the job is, but I would in no way put in
    greater than 45 hours/week unless I worked for myself.  I guess I'll be
    staying a WC2 for a long time; I've been in a WC4's position for
    authority and employee responsibility before, but never again.  Life is
    short to worry about pleasing small minds.
    
    Ogre.

        Re,

>>                      <<< Note 2179.59 by KELVIN::BURT >>>
>>               -< Report your sick time, no ecuses; Just Do It! >-
>>
>>    .53 Jim,
>>    
>>    I am NOT jealous!  I just don't see what the big stink is about WC4's
>>    reporting their sick time.  If someone uses sick time, it should be
>>    reported.  Doesn't sick time (past and present) somehow fall under STD?
>>    
    Reg,
    	I don't believe I said jealous.  You just seem upset or mad at
    WC4's.  It is a big deal when any benefit you worked hard for is take
    away.  No sick time is different than SHORT TERM DISABILITY (STD).
>>    
>>    [Back to Jim] Here is where a little bit of jealousy may exist with me
>>    in that people like Steve believe that WC4's should be measured
>>    differently than WC2's.  We all should be measured on the same scales
>>    and becausee one is a WC4 doesn't mean they get special attention!
>>    
>>    Ogre.

    Reg,
    	Steve is correct, BY LAW...  WC4's are not under labor laws, nor
    are the afforded the protection by such.  WC2's and WC3's are afforded
    protection by labor laws.  It's apples and oranges.  Salaried by
    definition have no hourly schedule.  To use an example; A WC4 can not
    be THEORETICALLY late to work.  That doesn't preclude, being timely for
    appointments.
    	Since WC4's are not clocked BY LAW, but are rated by the job they
    do (unlike WC2's or WC3's), how can the be rated the same?  The same
    applies to sick time.  For a salaried person, sick time should be
    meaningless as long as the job gets done in a timely manner.  If not,
    then I see no reason it can't be a performance issue.
    	Reg, please keep in mind that by LAW the positions are different. 
    There are no options for it to be any different.  They CAN NOT be
    judged or rated the same...

    Jim Morton

    by law that may be true and I do understand the benefits that WC4's get
    over WC2's, BUT! in my group I am rated on performance and awarded
    appropriately just like my WC4 counterparts.  
    
    The way you say it makes the law sound like WC2s shouldn't have to go 
    through a review process.  That the only things we need to do is show 
    up for our minimum 8 hour day/ 40 hour week; report our sick time; 
    schedule and report our vaca time; and do what we're told.  
    
    I don't need  annual feedback to tell me that I'm doing as expected 
    and doing a good job at it and maybe a promotion is in the near future.  
    However, I do need an annual review to tell me that I've exceeded what 
    is expected of me and that I'm working at a level that's acceptable to 
    be comparable with my WC4 counterparts.  
    
    Now this tells me that I'm being rated as a WC4.  
    
    So my question is what gives? who's right?
    
    Ogre.

        Re,

>>                      <<< Note 2179.61 by KELVIN::BURT >>>
>>          -< reporting sick time has to have a financial objective? >-
>>
>>    by law that may be true and I do understand the benefits that WC4's get
>>    over WC2's, BUT! in my group I am rated on performance and awarded
>>    appropriately just like my WC4 counterparts.  
    Reg,
    	It appears you misunderstand me.  I didn't say WC2's shouldn't be
    rated, but there are some inherent differences in the way they are to be
    rated.  If your group is rating the WC2 the same, then I suspect that
    time is not being evaluated.
>>    
>>    The way you say it makes the law sound like WC2s shouldn't have to go 
>>    through a review process.  That the only things we need to do is show 
>>    up for our minimum 8 hour day/ 40 hour week; report our sick time; 
>>    schedule and report our vaca time; and do what we're told.  
    Everyone should go through a review or evaluation, for both the
    employees good and the companies good, not just WC4, but all Wage
    classes.

    Reg, it seems that you are reading a lot into what I am saying, by the
    comments in that last sentence.  Everyones responsibility is to do what
    is in their JOB PLAN...  Do more, and or less, and your mgr should rate
    you above or below a 3, accordingly.
>>    
>>    I don't need  annual feedback to tell me that I'm doing as expected 
>>    and doing a good job at it and maybe a promotion is in the near future.  
    Whether or not you need feed back for just doing the job, your mgr is
    required to give the feedback.
>>    However, I do need an annual review to tell me that I've exceeded what 
>>    is expected of me and that I'm working at a level that's acceptable to 
>>    be comparable with my WC4 counterparts.  
    Reg, what can I do to get this across...  WC2, and WC4 are not
    comparable, plain and simple!  You are not supposed to be rated as a
    WC4, nor is a WC4 to be rated as a WC2.  You may not like it, but it is
    LAW, and neither you, your manager or Digital can change it...
>>    
>>    Now this tells me that I'm being rated as a WC4.  
    Again, you are not rated as a WC4, unless you are a WC4.  There are
    labor laws to protect WC3's and WC2's.  WC4's are not under labor laws,
    so therefore, the evaluations have different criteria.  Digital also in
    its wisdom, rates individuals according to job code, job plan and in
    accordance with labor laws...

>>    
>>    So my question is what gives? who's right?
>>    
>>    Ogre.
>>

    It's not who's right.  Its a matter of comparing non like things. 
    APPLES and ORANGES...  They are still fruit, but non the less, they are
    different.  So are Wage Classes.

    If you truly are being rated as a WC4, I would take it to personal.


    Jim Morton

    Back in the mid-80's when I was at HP, the company combined all
    vacation and sick time (I was in equiv WC4) for an employee and called
    it FLEXIBLE TIME OFF.  I could use this time (in hourly chunks) doing
    whatever I wanted.  HP recognised that one may not be "sick", but still
    needed time to do things in the middle of the day.  Instead of
    having a system which really sometimes forces an employee to "lie", HP
    took the attitude that everyone is a professional adult, and can manage
    their own time.
    
    In fact, the attitude/philosophy that each of us is a trustworthy,
    professional employee who is an important stakeholder in the company I
    think  has differentiated HP to date (boyond having products with
    market pull etc).
    
    When I was in Sales Support for DEC, I too couldn't use the so-call COMP 
    time.  I was left with the impression that management did not
    appreciate such efforts.
    
    In all my professional life, I've never had to put in sick time on a
    time card.  That requirement, to me, says a lot about the company and
    its attitude towards professionals.
    
    -Ashikin

.59>    I am so [insert feeling] for you that your job required you to work so
.59>    many hours while your family trickled along without knowing you.  It's

Aw, come on Reg, let those feelings out.

I don't recall saying that my family trickled along without knowing me.  
In that time of my life, yes, I put in the hours.  But I was also able to 
attend school activities in the middle of the day when it was important to my 
stepsons, take a nice afternoon off when work was slow and take my stepsons to 
the Goddard visitor's center, or out to a field to shoot model rockets, or 
leave early to coach baseball or attend a game, and I didn't have to put in
for vacation.  The company knew I would be there when needed, so they didn't
question this behavior or begrudge me the fact that I had the opportunity to
get away from the office and spend some quality time with the kids. 

Now, with my own son, I pick him up after my normal 8-10 hour day at the 
office, come home, fix dinner, spend some time with him, and after he goes to 
bed, I resume my work.  Believe me Reg, my behavior is not the exception, more 
like the norm for people in similar positions.
    
.59>    If I wasn't married with children, I too would probably be spending a
.59>    ridiculous amount of time at work.  However, I chose for the family

To you it seems ridiculous, to me, it's business as usual.  The same in many 
professions.
    
.59>    in that people like Steve believe that WC4's should be measured
.59>    differently than WC2's.  We all should be measured on the same scales

Well, we do different jobs.  I get compensated differently, why shouldn't I 
get measured differently?  But don't expect to measure me one way and 
compensate me another way.  Yeah, you don't mind logging sick time, but what 
if you were downgraded on your PA because you _ONLY_ put in 45 hours a week 
when two guys in your department were out on STD and the work was backing up?  
It doesn't work exactly that way for me, but if there is a ton of work to do 
and everyone around me is working 12 hours a day, I'm expected to do the same, 
especially on a project or program team.
    
.59>    there's alot of hussling going on.  However, somehow, we all manage to
.59>    get accomplished in 8/40 hours what takes most people (apparently) 60+.

.59>    Plus, I don't see why it would be so critical for WC4 to put in so much
.59>    extra time above what they would put in as a WC2?  Maybe a little bit
.59>    of time depending on what the job is, but I would in no way put in
.59>    greater than 45 hours/week unless I worked for myself.  I guess I'll be

I suspect the jobs we are discussing here _are_ fundamentally different.  Not 
a value judgement, just a statement of fact.  As an example, let's suppose we 
have a pile of bricks.  I am supposed to move them from point A to point B.  I 
can carry the bricks, one at a time, from A to B and get it done in X hours. 
Now, I have two piles of bricks.  If they are close enough together, I can
walk with two bricks, and do twice the work in X hours.  But, if the bricks
are far enough apart that this is not possible, then I have two choices: Pick
up a brick, walk to the next pile, pick up another brick, then walk to the
destination and drop them, then back to the start, which would take
approximately 1.5X hours (assuming the piles are the same distance apart as A
and B) or move the first pile, finish that, then move the second pile (2X
hours).  It sounds like your job is closer to the first or second situation,
mine is more like the third and depending on the situation, I may have to
spend 1.5X or 2X hours doing all the work.  I'm only doing twice the work (as
you are in the second situation), but it's not the type of work that I can do
at the same time, so it takes more than X to accomplish the work. 
    
.59>    short to worry about pleasing small minds.
    
Funny, I've never thought of customers that way.  I wonder how prevalent that 
attitude is in the company?

.59>    schedule and report our vaca time; and do what we're told.  
    
I do whatever it takes to keep the customer happy, win the business, etc., and
if someone has to tell me what to do, I'm asleep at the wheel. 

.63>    Back in the mid-80's when I was at HP, the company combined all
.63>    vacation and sick time (I was in equiv WC4) for an employee and called
.63>    it FLEXIBLE TIME OFF.  I could use this time (in hourly chunks) doing
.63>    whatever I wanted.  HP recognised that one may not be "sick", but still
    
I have experienced this also, and would find this acceptable also, as long as 
Digital didn't say, "OK, we are going from the old plan where you had 3 weeks 
of annual vacation and "unlimited" sick leave to the new flex time plan.  You 
now have 4 weeks to use as you please."  I would expect an amount equal to at 
least annual + 2 weeks additional.

.63>    In fact, the attitude/philosophy that each of us is a trustworthy,
.63>    professional employee who is an important stakeholder in the company I

That's the attitude I would expect.
    
.63>    When I was in Sales Support for DEC, I too couldn't use the so-call
.63>    COMP time.  I was left with the impression that management did not

Doesn't exist in DEC.  I think KO's philosophy was, when we need you to be 
here, you be here, when you need to be away, you take the time, and hopefully 
they don't coincide, neither of us abuses the other, etc.  Not one for one, 
but flexible.

.63>    In all my professional life, I've never had to put in sick time on a
.63>    time card.  That requirement, to me, says a lot about the company and

The only time this was stressed was when I was being paid straight time for 
every hour I worked.  As I said earlier, this may have been an indication that 
we were bid as WC3 employees.

    1st: I won't a lot into what is being said if the thinking is clear
    (maybe for you, but not all).
    
    2nd: In my group, we are reviewed on our work performance, how many
    schedules we managed to keep, how many commitments we managed to meet,
    the level of project we were involved in/responsible for, how
    professional we handled our work, AND how many sick days we took along
    with all the other WC2 stuff.
    
       What I'm attempting to say, is my group is not like yours and not
       like any group in DEC just as no DEC org is like any other DEC org.
       We all have differnet management styles with different preferences
       on how a business should be run.  If the business is successful,
       all fine and dandy; if the business fails or fails to keep up with
       the rest of DEC, s**t should hit the fan.
    
    3rd: However, if someone is being rated badly because they can only put
    in 45 hours and 2 other group members are out on STD, it is NOT the
    problem of the individual that all the group's work is not done.  It is
    the problem of management for not either stepping in to help out,
    insuring that all group members are skilled in more than one job,
    inefficient downsizing, or not going to a temporary org to seek out
    extra help.  We as individuals can only do so much; sometimes
    management has to be able to handle the juggling also.
    
    4th: Not to brag too much, but I am capable of handling work loads that
    would amaze even you.
    
    5th: clarifying small brains: equal all those who I deem to have a
    small brain in my eyes, yes, customers included, but in the previous
    text- customers were NOT implied.
    
    Ogre.
    
    BTW: this is my last note entry.  No, I didn't get tapped (yet), but I
    have finally come to a realization that there are more important things
    to do with my spare time than to drivel along in notesfiles.  I prefer
    a more interpersonal 1-x-1 in-person form of communication anyway.
    
    Seeing as how this is the only NF I'm active in (I have some RO files),
    no one will have to read this NF adios anywhere else.
    
    No need for comments, I won't be reading them; you can send me mail if
    you want.
    
    A last comment : I'm sorry WC4's believe they are God's gift to the
    business, any business.

    	I don't think that the message has been communicated loudly
    	enough.  Not all groups are aware that WC4s must submit a time
    	card to show the sick time, AND that doctor and dentist 
    	appointments are "sick time."