Conference 7.286::digital

Thanks for the suggestion (and thanks to Al Thompson for fwding it to me).
I'll bring the suggestion to Chuck. You might also want to post it in
SMAUG::DCU

If you participate in SAVE [401(k)] and have enough money in it, you might
want to consider taking out a SAVE loan instead (instead of paying interest
to DCU, you can pay interest to yourself).

If you drive a Company car it is owned by either PHH or GE Capitol.  To get
the purchase price call the appropriate phone number listed below:

	PHH  301-771-2747
        GE   612-828-2443


Beware of the price you are quoted.  I called PHH on 9/9/92 and was told the
purchase price was $7,800.  I called again on 9/21/92 and was told the price
is $9,109.  I asked why the price went up in only two weeks and was told they
make a mistake the first time.

    
    PHH and GELCO may also know the bind that some DEC people will be in.
    I hope this was an isolated instance, and not a trend. Hopefully
    "someone" at DEC with "authority" will be able to cross reference the
    actual price with the quoted price. I hope I am being overly cynical.
    
    
    			fred deady
    			wbc::deady
    
    

    
    Let them keep their car.  It's a scam.  Fleet management companies like
    these can get unbelievable purchase prices from the manufacturers
    through volume buying.  They charge companies high fees and useage costs
    and force them to pay maintenance and upkeep costs not covered under
    manufacturers warrantees.   At turn-in time they then expect you to
    pay book value for the car.  That's why these fleet companies are the
    only divisions of their parent companies that are making any money.
    
    Let 'em sweat trying to unload a few thousand DEC-wrecks!
    
    Digital will lend you money to buy a PC but they're not in the used car
    business.  And I can't believe anyone asked about the DCU.
    

    
    RE: .5-
    
    >through volume buying.  They charge companies high fees and useage costs
    >and force them to pay maintenance and upkeep costs not covered under
    > manufacturers warrantees.   At turn-in time they then expect you to
    
    	I've always thought that the "National Account" maintenance
    program with "select vendors" was a howl. What a Gravy Train. The only 
    remote acknowledgement of these scams was when Fleet nuked a major
    national automotive service during the '80s which I refer to as 
    "Sneers and Rubbish". Interpret as you wish.
    
    Phil

    BE AWARE  on purchasing your used DEC Wreck. When I picked up my car
    from the Dealership I was going thru the papers and saw the ACTUAL cost
    of the Vehicle ie what the leasing company paid for it. The sticker
    price was over $18k. The price they paid for it was actually mid $14k.
    I question this as some recently received vehicles had their drivers
    TFSO'd within a month or 2 of receiving the cars. They called to get a
    quote on purchasing their cars and the quote was equal to or more than
    the price I saw when looking thru the paper work mentioned above.
    So be aware of being taken advantage of when purchasing ie if TFSO'd or
    changing Car Plans in the future.
    
    Mike Turro
    

    re: -4 and -5
    
    I agree with both replies.  GELCO or PHH know that a lot of folks that
    currently have a Company car will be in a bind when then will have to
    give it up and that those leasing companies will be running a scam if
    they expect the Digital drivers to pay book value for a "DEC wreck".
    
    Anyone know when fleet is going to pull the plug on those employees
    on plan A or plan B for that matter?  You'll have to drive (I hear)
    500 BUSINESS miles a month increasing to 800 BUSINESS miles a month
    to qualify to keep the car.  In addition Digital will charge you
    22.5 cents per mile for personal use (that means driving to and from
    work!).
    
    In the usual Digital fashion, were is the openness and communication to
    its employees?  Will employees be given a reasonable period of time to
    decide what to do?  Or will employees be forced to react (especially
    those TFSO'd).
    
    Any information (not rumors) will be appreciated.

    I was told yesterday that the new Plan B changes go into effect
    1-Oct-1992, and that those with Plan A vehicles that need to be turned
    in (i.e., mileage) will be done on 1-Jan-1993.
    
    Your  manager is supposed to brief you on the changes by the ?end? of
    this week (or sometime near that).
    
    --- Gavin

    Our monthly unit meeting was held yesterday 23-Sep-92 and both the unit
    manager and the district manager participated in explaining what the
    expectations were surrounding the new and improved company car plans.
    
    I'm in a field service cost center in Washington, DC working for the
    federal government district so what I'm relating may or may not relate
    to others.
    
    Yes we are going to change the eligibility for using a company car.
    
    Starting immediately the unit manager will review mileage records for
    each employee over the past several months to determine  if the 
    employee meets the mileage requirements for the new company car plan.
    
    These mileage requirements are
    
    	An average 500 business miles or greater each month.
    	As of July 01, 1993 this business mileage requirement will be
    	increased to 800 business miles per month.
    
    A business mile is considered from office to customer site.  (Somewhat
    gray area here.  What about office to office?)    The FIRST AND LAST 
    trips of the day are considered personal mileage because it is assumed
    that they are between our residence to/from our  customer site/or office.
    
    If I am within my service area and driving to a customer site at 08:15 
    when my pager goes off and I stop at a pay phone to call the CRR or
    a customer does business mileage start at that telephone booth?   The 
    answer was no because I am expected to either be at my home base facility
     at 08:15 or wait until I arrive at the customer site at 08:45 (suggested 
    time) before responding to the page.  If I want to pull over and respond 
    immediately that becomes my personal choice.
    
    
    By October 23, 1992 each CSE here in Washington will know whether they
    will be participating in Plan A, B or no plan at all. The transition
    date for moving between plans will be January 1, 1993.
    
    If you meet the mileage requirements and choose plan A, your cost for
    personal use miles will increase to  22 1/2 cents per mile. ($.225).
    You will be required to submit the full amount of the personal mileage
    charge with your weekly vehicle report rather then the current custom
    of a $30.00 fixed charge.
    
    If you meet the mileage requirements and choose plan B, you will be
    reimbursed at a monthly rate determined by your facility.  In downtown
    Washington the rate is $354.00 per month plus 8 cents per mile. ($.08).
    This amount is taxable by FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL GOVT'S  (figure 28 to 
    45%).   Your vehicle can be up to but no more then 5 years old and in
    good condition.  No mention was made of required insurance changes but
    in today's lawyer crazy  world, a one MILLION dollar policy should be
    adequate.  Make that a $1,000,000.00  BUSINESS policy because many 
    personal insurance policies contain clauses that will NOT PAY IF YOUR
    VEHICLE IS BEING USED FOR BUSINESS PURPOSES WITHOUT THEIR KNOWLEDGE AND
    APPROVAL.
      
    If you do not meet the mileage requirements, then Digital will
    reimburse you on a per mile basis only of 22 1/2  cents per mile.  This
    amount is expected to cover all insurance, maintenance, depreciation,
    and miscellaneous costs of operating a vehicle.. I have heard some
    engineers state that this also covers gasoline but that statement
    sounds too far fetched to be true.
    
    
    During the ensueing debate, my district manager made several
    clarifications regarding company policy.
    
    From a management viewpoint  Digital does not consider the company
    vehicle to be a part of your compensation package.
    
    From a management viewpoint Digital does not consider the company
    vehicle to be a tool, ala tools bags, scopes, hand trucks, lan
    analyzers etc.
    
    From a management viewpoint Digital does NOT mandate that you have a
    vehicle as a part of your job description.  This brings up a
    interesting point because here in Washington, we have a pretty fair
    public transportation system which covers a large percentage of our
    service area.  Is it possible to use cabs, trains etc? The answer
    was " Yes, as long as the CSE can react in a timely and efficient manner 
    to the assigned service calls.
    
    
    My unit manager definately considers the company vehicle a luxury for the
    CSE personnel.  From my viewpoint, I have to take three or more calls
    per day, am expected to maintain almost every type of product line that
    Digital produces as well as the vast quantity of VES equipment that
    we have under contract.  My car is so filled with equipment, parts and
    manuals that I feel like Sanford and son riding down the highway.  Plus
    my wife refuses outright to ride in it.  No problem.  There isn't any
    room for another person anyway.  I get to wash and clean it on my own
    time, register and have it inspected on my own time, bring it down to
    the service station on my own time and arrange for my own
    transportation because GELCO has its list of selected vendors which
    are not always in the most convenient places.  If this is LUXURY I
    have no interest in experiencing down to earth basic necessities.
    
    Interesting closing comment,  My sister works for Kodax field service
    and pays 22.5 cents for personal mileage.  PERIOD.. No mileage require-
    ments, gets a new car every three years.  Even the managers have cars.
    
    This is also closely true of XEROX engineers althought I'm not sure if
    there managers also get vehicles.  
    My only purpose  in mentioning this ( I can hearrrrrr managers saying 
    so go work for Kodak or Xerox already)  is simply to make the point that 
    instead of trying to demonstrate how low we can sink as a corporation
    (which doesn't take a whole bunch of management ability to do)
    it would be more advantageous  to move back to profitability without
    destroying everyone's life in the process. 
    

    I wonder if DEC has considered to represent the employees who 
    want/need to buy their vehicles and move off Plan A to B (or, more
    likely, no plan) as a group to GE (and the other fleet manager).  
    
    I would expect DEC could easily get a significant discount off the 
    normal buy price if they could represent 100's of cars at once (in Nov
    and again in May '93 - since the 800 mile requirement kicks in July).

    
    
    
    
    Re: .11 Jim
    
    Since a car is not a requirment for your job, what happens if you don't
    provide one?  That's the basic question?  And if one IS required for
    your job, when did DEC abdicate the responsibility for providing it?
    
    
    There is another aspect of this new plan that isn't right:
    
    If you drive 400 miles a month, you provide a car and get reimbursed 
    $0.225 X 400 miles = $90 which is a straight $0.225 per mile.
    
    If you drive 501 miles a month, you can provide a car and you get
    reimursed  [$350 + ( $0.08 X 501 miles )] = $ 398.08, which really
    equals $0.7945 per mile.
    
    Why does the person in the second example get such a high reimbursement
    rate in relation to the second one?  My point is the relationship
    between the rates, not which one is more fair.

    Re: 2120.12
    
    I fully agree with you. The difference between reimbursed mileage and
    plan B payment will be more balanced when the minimum monthly mileage
    requirement for plan B goes up to 800 miles/month. Remember, plan B
    requires one to have a late model car and added coverage which is
    supposed to justify the extra payment.
    
    I plan to replace my company car with an automobile which does not cost
    me any more than the mileage reimbursement received from DEC. It
    appears my "new" car will be a 1984 Buick. With only one income in my
    family and living in one of the most expensive cities (San Diego, Ca.),
    I will have to swallow my pride.
    
    With the skyrocketing cost of health care and LTD, the expense of a  new 
    car is the last thing I need.
    
    Vern Dutta.

    I know some might feel this is not the time for levity; but for those
    folks who find themselves in a position of buying another car as a
    "must".....wonder what would happen if you bought a Geo Metro
    hatchback?   Mine gets 45 MPG, back seat folds down....with a shoe
    horn you might be able to squeeze more than 2 customers in the back.
    It will definitely hold a lot of HW that way :-)
    
    Karen
    

    
    If all who currently supply a car for performing the company's business
    and that includes field (customer) service, were to suddenly show up
    one morning, turn in the keys to their cars to their managers and 
    announce that they would be using other means of transportation to get
    back and forth to work; what, do you suppose, Digital would do?
    
    

    RE: .-1
    
    Hey! Right! Oppressed workers to the barricades!
    
    Well, I don't know where you are, but here in S. California,
    unemployment is running at >10%. A large percentage of that is recently
    layed-off aerospace workers and engineers. If, as you suggest, we all
    dropped off our keys, I should expect that the next morning there would
    be at least 5 qualified people lined up for every open position,
    willing to work for less and to start immediately.
    
    Your proposal has a great deal of merit. It helps the corporation to
    reduce headcount and labor costs, and doesn't use any of the
    shareholders money to "soften the blow", like this TFSO thing does.
    
    That was your intent, right? :-)

    
    Actually, I was asking what others thought Digital would do in this
    hypothetical situation encounter.
    
    You seem to be saying they would fire those individuals on the spot.
    
    That might be practical if there were only one or two "situations."
    What about hundreds?
    

    From experience, purchasing your DECmobile is not such a bad deal.
    
    A bit over 4 years ago I purchased my 2 year old Celebrity when I moved
    from the field to Marlborough.  While I no longer have the numbers, it
    was well under book value (having checked the Blue Book).  
    
    Two years later I sold the car for $500 less than what I bought it for.
    
    That wasn't too bad at all!

     re: .15
    
    I think we're going to find out what happens very soon.  The way this
    thing is getting roled out, a lot of people are going to be forced to
    turn in their cars very quickly by the finances.

    For the noter who said they were going to use a 1984 Buick, please be
    advised that a car that qualifies for Plan B must not be over 5 years
    old. Plan C is any age.
    

    Re. 2120.20
    
    The reason I mentioned 1984 Buick as my "new" car is that even in Plan
    B you have to have minimum 800 (500 now) business miles per month. Not
    many sales or sales support people are going to come up with that many miles
    per month on a regular basis. If you can't be reimbursed fully to afford 
    a late model car, should you use a late model car for the company business?
    
    The real success or failure of the new car plan will depend on how
    seriously the sales management follows the rules. It is lot easier to
    take away cars from sales support and field service. It is going to be
    very hard to remove sales people from car plan when every other company
    provides cars to sales people. I am expecting all sales people who donot
    qualify to get exception and continue on plan A or B.

Our biggest compedetor IBM has never had  a COMPANY CAR PLAN.
Don't you know Digital ia trying to Emulate IBM?

re: .3

>Beware of the price you are quoted.  I called PHH on 9/9/92 and was told the
>purchase price was $7,800.  I called again on 9/21/92 and was told the price
>is $9,109.  


We had the same thing happen to someone in our office - the price went 
up over $1200 AFTER the anouncement of the new car plan ... who in 
management is looking after this ??? 

    Re .22
    
    IBM in the UK certainly has a company car plan - of course you may be
    correct about the U.S
    
    Phil

    Reg.22
    
    In Calif. F/S IBM'ers get a car allowance, to drive any size, age or
    type of vehicle they want and they get .08 cents a mile for business
    miles. 

    In Upstate N.Y., IBM'ers get a better deal on company cars than we do
    (did). I've seen everything from Porsche to 'Vette to old_pickup_truck.
    They have a monthly amount as well as mileage.
    
    I agree with the reply about sales being exempted, however, I also feel
    that those with the power will carry those without the power, again. Sales
    will cry and keep the cars, perhaps rightfully so, image does count in
    some places. Management will keep their commuter cars on the pretext of
    customer visits. Field Service Engineers who do not spend all day
    driving around will lose theirs.
    
    
    .mike.
    

    Re: 22
    
    I do not work for IBM, I work for Digital Equipment Corportation. When
    I completed tech school, I recieved offers from IBM, Burroughs,and CDC.
    Looking at the starting salrary range back then (VAX was the new DEC 
    computer), CDC offered the highest starting pay, then Burroughs, IBM
    and DEC starting range was $2,000.00 to $3,000.00 lower than CDC.
    
    You are correct by stating IBM doesn't have a company car plan. CDC
    and Burroughts reimburstment was simular to DEC's plan B. I chose
    to work for DEC because of the size of the company (at that time
    it was 77,000) and because my interviewer convinced me the car
    was included in my benifits package and without a need to purchase
    a car for business, I made $3500.00 more p/year. 
    
    I know because of the RAYGUN-BUSCH(E) tax reform package company cars
    were no longer concidered a tool but a taxable benefit (again my 
    statement in the above paragraph holds), Digital up'd the personal
    use from 9 to 18 to 30 bucks a week. Now think about this.....
    .... when the car plan doubled, did you pay double??? When Digital
    raised the rate %40, did you recieve a %40 raise??? 
    Now that John Hancock has raised there rates over %400 and you're
    LTD has gone up %250 have you recieved a salary increase to compansate
    that loss of pay??? 
    NOW THAT YOU ARE LOOSING YOUR COMPANY CAR, YOUR SALARY WILL DECREASE
    AS LITTLE AS $800.00 IF YOU BUY A 72 VEGA OR $4 - 5 THOUSAND DOLLARS
    IF YOU PURCHASE A NEW CAR.
    
    Now, remember, the IBM salary is not DEC salary and soon DEC salary
    may become no salary.
    
    Management will say we are compansated equally if not better than
    "other"  computer companies. 
    
    My reply is, If we have the best service organization in the computer
    industry, why aren't we payed the best wages??
    
    
    Management first took away our digity (My former Area VP told the 
    engineers "you're lucky you have a job")
    
    Then, they took away our parts... (We need to resourse that part..
    . now the customer has to wait up to 2 more hours or maybe the next
    day because my logistics doesn't have the part)
    
    Then they took away our dispatchers from our office..(Now we talk with
    people from another country (the people there are very nice) who do
    not know anything about your district other than primary, backup, and
    first avalible). 
     
    Then there has been TFSO.....................................
    
    Now DEC is taking our primary tool to do our job..............
    
    Now Digital states, if you drive 500 miles or more per month, DEC will
    allow you to use a company car and all you do is pay .22 per personal
    milage.. If you live a block from your office that's ok.  But if
    you live more than 35 miles from your office that's costly.
    
    But I guess for the money we're making. being payed .22 cent to 
    use my $20,000.00 4X4 to haul HDA's VR299's LPS40 kits, that spill
    toner, and when my vehicle is payed for won't be worth a dime because
    of all the interior damage done to it (kit scratches, chemical spills, 
    etc.), I am going to save all that .22 per mile money to put a
    down payment on a new vehicle.. let's see my vehicle will be payed 
    off in 1994 and the 1993 pathfinders are $26,000.00 hmmm, the 1995
    pathfinders should be $30,000.00 and... yep 136,363.63 miles X .22 
    per mile will buy me a new one.............
    
    
    One more time .......... WE WORK FOR DEC ... NOT IBM ......

>    I know because of the RAYGUN-BUSCH(E) tax reform package company cars
>    were no longer concidered a tool but a taxable benefit 

Funny - my copy of the Constitution says that CONGRESS controls taxation (ways
and means) and spending (appropriations), not the Executive Branch.. You should 
at least point the critizism at the right people.

Bryan

    re .28
    
    Congress passes laws which may be proposed by anybody, including the
    Executive Branch.  The Executive Branch makes regulations and
    interpretations based (usually) on those laws.  What actually gets
    taxed depends on both of those PLUS further rulings and interpretations
    by the courts.
    
    Credit or blame can be apportioned to any or all of the branches
    depending on who proposed, who lobbied, and who
    amended/regulated/interpreted.
    
    /Butch