Conference 7.286::digital

    I for one would love to see it. The current plan doesn't even come
    close to covering my expenses. I currently average around 500 business
    miles per week. I think this is just a bit beyond what Fleet Services
    had in mind when they designed Plan B. The $200/month and $.08/mile
    covers gas and about 1/8th of the car payment. (It didn't even cover
    gas when I was driving a Blazer that I owned when I started working in
    Desktop Services!)
    
    Forget about the outrageous insurance bills for the level of coverage
    that DEC insists one carry while on Plan B and the incredible high
    mileage deduction hit at trade in time. The high mileage deduction
    alone on my Blazer was $3,400. (125K miles on an '87). Plan B didn't
    even cover gas ($300/month) and (variable) maintenance costs, let alone
    insurance ($1,300/yr) and (greatly accellerated) depreciation.
    
    I've asked for a company car and was told that it "isn't in the budget
    right now." Meanwhile, leftover cars from folks that have been hit by
    TFSO sit in parking lots. I personally subsidize Digital every time I
    go on a service call. It takes money out of MY pocket. Yep, for me, I
    think Plan B sucks. 
    
    My manager on the other hand thinks that it's great. He get's his
    monthly check and seldom moves his car from the parking garage. When he
    does use it for company business, it's usually to the airport. Not much
    wear and tear from that kind of use. Meanwhile, the new car that I just
    purchased last week will have to be traded in about 3 years because it
    will already have over 120K miles. The depreciation hit will probably
    be close to $12,000. Figure out how many years of $200/month it takes
    to cover that. :-(
    
    FWIW, I was talking with a service rep from Fujitsu a couple of weeks
    ago. She told me that Fujitsu pays her $375/month + $.10/mile + pays
    her insurance! Now THAT is a decent car plan!
    
    Harry
    

    A few months back, I asked for information concerning another company
    car since I had 80K on my present Plan A vehicle.  I was told a
    decision had been made in the Mid-Atlantic Region not to purchase any
    new cars because of a surplus left by the people who were recently
    downsized.  
    
    Then last week, I was told that I could order a new Plan A wagon
    (apparently all the surplus vehicles are sedans).
    
    Chris Lane
    Digital Services

    
    Re: car plan based on milage
    
    Amen brother, Amen!
    
    -Ed
    

While I would agree that a car plan based on actual business milage would
make the most sense, there are MANY people (myself included) who accepted 
employment with this comapny based on a certain level of compensation, a certain
level of benefits and a company car.  I, for one, would have held out or a few
thou' more absent the car plan.

-dave

    
    Re: -1
    
    I got $500 a month at Convergent before Unisys acquired us.  It went
    away *COMPLETELY* after a while.  Car plans are *NOT* compensation.
    
    What did I do?  I came to work at Digital!  Hey, life's tough!
    
    -Ed
    

I entered this before,but I guess it bears repeating:
It was explained to me,when I was in the field a short time ago that as an employee with a car
plan eligible job code, I had the option of being on plan A or B period. If you want some
other option (like 22.5/mile) you could either find another job in DEC or use the Open Door
Policy (you know,where the door to  the outside is always open) The 22.5/mile deal is only
meant to be temporary for eligible employees temporarily without a plan A or B car or non-
eligible employees using their car for business. I'm sure there are just scads of you who'll
say: Balderdash! I've been getting $0.22/mi for ten years! To you I say: Don't count on it 
staying that way.

Ken

    re: .7
    
    Ken,  how about making your window 80 characters wide so those of us
    using terminals can read what you say.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Bob

    	Fleet issued a statement sometime during the past 6 months 
    to the effect: 1) Plan A vehicles would not be replaced on a scheduled
    age/mileage basis, but rather when repair costs became exhorbitant,
    and 2) replacement vehicles would be new orders only when a suitable
    unassigned vehicle is not available. Note that this is not a
    modification to the U.S. Fleet P&P manual, only a "memo".
    
    				SO..
    
    	Were there any changes affecting those of us on Plan B waiving
    the 5 year age limit? Nah. Wouldn't want to address the entire Fleet
    with a mixed message i.e. those who might want to keep a vehicle
    they own _can_ while those who are _supposed_ to get a scheduled
    new replacement (per verbatim policy) cannot.
    
    		What I found out..
    
	I called Fleet after getting an A1 about the age of my Plan
    B car. Plan B drivers can retain their vehicle beyond the 5 year
    point provided that they get management approval from a manager
    with at least $10K signatory authority. This can be done indefinitely.
    
    			So..
    
    	What it boils down to, IMHO, is this: If your car isn't a heap
    and your immediate manager "eyeballs" the vehicle once in a while
    (to quell concerns about its image to customers), and you can persuade
    him/her to approve or elavate your exception request, you should
    be able to keep your vehicle beyond 5 years. It doesn't cost DEC
    any more or less to let the employee decide when their personal
    situation warrants or allows replacing the vehicle.
    
    Phil

    	I was denied an age limit exception. I had one previously, I'll
    admit. Rationale was "if I grant you one, 200 others will want one".
    Likely, fine. But SO WHAT? It doesn't cost DEC a red cent either
    way if I do or don't replace my car. It has everything to do with 
    "there's no reason for it, it's just policy" and apparent management 
    indifference to employee morale and economic conditions at the grass
    roots.
    
    	Combining this development with the Benefits BULLetin news about
    medical coverage costs makes for a real swell financial entrance into
    1992.

    Phil

Do you get an automatic notification when your Plan B car is getting too old or
do the checks just stop coming?

Paul

    	You get a memo from Fleet, CC: your manager stating that your
    payments will stop on a several-months-hence date unless you supply
    new vehicle information and accompanying proof of insurance naming
    Digital as additional insured, etc., etc.
    
    Phil

    
     Just got my New fair market rate for 1992. Car Plan A , $3500.00 an
    increase of a cool 400.00 dollars. 
    
    OUCH.
    -Mike Z.

RE .-1

I'm not sure where you are, but here in New York it went from
$3100.00 to $3600.00 a cool $500.00...  

Thank you IRS!

    I recently was dropped from CAR Plan B with no notice.  I changed jobs,
    but was under the impression that I was still eligible for car plan...
                  
    I tried the phone number for Plan B and the number has been changed. 
    Does anyone know who to contact?  By the way, is there a listing
    anywhere for what job codes are entitled?
    
    Cheers,
    
    Paula

        My DIgital phone directory shows Fleet Admin. Plan B to be at
        PKO3-2/F15, DTN 223-9800.

    Just got my Plan A form from GE Capitol...
    
    I now pay $3,600 a year...
    
    --- Gavin
    p.s. - Same amount of mistakes on the mileage forms as usual...

    D*mn,
    
    I'm starting to pick up on the HUMANE::DIGITAL mood a little too much.
    I open the letter and read of the increase and, boom!, through the
    ceiling.  It's time to take some personal finance classes :-)
    
    --- Gavin

    I had tried the fleet B number listed in the directory, and the number
    has been disconnected.
    
    The correct number for fleet admin is dtn 232-2320.  Very helpful chap
    on the other end.
    
    By the way, the reason why my checks mysteriously stopped was because I
    was on a TSFO list in July.  Noone updated the list after the drop dead
    date, and many individuals that found jobs were dropped from the plan
    accidentally... could have saved DEC some time and $ in retroactive
    checks if someone validated the list first!
    
    Cheers-
    
    Paula

    
    Well the latest rumor has it that the axe is about to fall on the car
    plans.  We are supposed to be notified in Feb with 6 months to transition.
    
    Each dept is going to be assessed based on business miles.  50%
    has to be business miles, but this is only a guide.  They may still
    decide to take the car planS from your dept.  For example, the dept
    previously known as EIS is a "to be decided".  Even though they do
    accrue business miles, it's on a project by project basis.  Some people
    may be putting in tons of miles and others working on a project
    in-house.  So the powers that be may decide to pull the cars from
    everyone.
    
    I gather this plan was supposed to be implemented last year.  Something
    happened to postpone it.  It may be postponed again, but unlikely. 
    Last time they tried to pull plan A, Sales was able to exempt
    themselves, by raising a large enough stink about it.  How do we do the
    same??????
    
    I know the car plans are supposed to be a tool for our jobs, not a
    benefit.  But who amoung us didn't count that "tool" in, when evaluating
    the job offer from digital.  Our salaries are reportedly below market
    but the benefits are supposed to make up for it.  WE WILL NOT be
    compensated in our salaries.  Both Plan A and B will be going away.
    
    I know things are rough all over, but I have to believe there is another way 
    that is not being explored.  Even those who will retain their cars will be
    paying more.  So once some of us start losing our cars or monthly
    checks, all will be effected.  
    
    I suppose you would have to hope that even though we lose our cars,
    maybe it will prevent someone from losing their job.  But I just don't
    think it works that way.  If they did think that way, those back in GMA
    & CXO wouldn't be getting turkeys since it could save someone's job,
    etc, etc, etc.
    
    There should be a smoother way to transition without it having to cost
    US money.  And that's the bottom line it will be money out of our
    pockets.  But only some of us.  If they wanted to ask us to take a wage
    cut in order to keep our jobs, shouldn't that be shared and voted on by
    everyone.  Not just decided upon, by the powers that be, that certain
    people are going to lose money since they got something different then
    other people.  True, not everyone was offered a car.  But those of us
    on the plans counted it AS PART OF our employment package.  Would you
    take a cut in pay????
    
    The company seems to be trying to be fair to those people on TFSO.  I
    would hope that they try and be as fair in the Pull-the-Car-Plan-Action.
    I would like to see a PCPA package.  A package that would make 
    purchasing the cars extremely inexpensive, not just FMV.
    I would hope the company was given a GREAT deal by the car companies, 
    that we as individuals would never be able to get.  And that the deal would
    be passed onto us. I would also like to see cars loans from
    the DCU at a better rate than we could hope to get from our banks.
    And somehow, it should be equally fair for plan B people.
    
    Does the powers that be really understand what it means to us?  Oh sure, 
    they can justify it, but IT'S A WAGE CUT, NONTHELESS.
    
    <SLOW_BOIL_OFF>
    
    -A
    
    not only offers us a "deal" if
    we buy our company car, with loans at a good rate from the DCU

    My feeling is that I will gladly give up my car, pay cut or not, if it
    would save someone else's job
    

    re .-1
    
    And if the corporation keeps penny pinching, there won't be any other
    jobs to save...
    
    q
    

    
    
    	.23  But, how would you know?
    
    

    It has just been in the past 4 or 5 years, that I have heard the car
    plan touted as a tool.  When I was first hired, the hiring manager
    definitely posed it as a benifit.  I am on plan B.  Elimination of this
    plan would be a pay cut.

Re: .22

	Please don't take my comments as flames, I have no intention for that.
    
>    There should be a smoother way to transition without it having to cost
>    US money.  And that's the bottom line it will be money out of our
>    pockets.  But only some of us.  

     Do you really think it's possible ?? Downsizing will cost someone's
     pocket for sure, the questions is whom ? The same analogy for U.S
     budget deficit, when it's congress budget/taxes time every year.
     Some class of people win, some loss. That's wonderful thing of lobbyist
     make their money from. 

     Another hot topic in this week's newspaper is Detroit Top Auto Executive
     had top pay compare to Japan's counterpart. What's your opinion on this ?
     Do you think they will voluntarily cut their salary before G.M announce
     70,000 bloody layoff, 21 plants shut down ? 

>    If they wanted to ask us to take a wage
>    cut in order to keep our jobs, shouldn't that be shared and voted on by
>    everyone.  Not just decided upon, by the powers that be, that certain
>    people are going to lose money since they got something different then
>    other people.  True, not everyone was offered a car.  But those of us
>    on the plans counted it AS PART OF our employment package.  Would you
>    take a cut in pay????
 
     I agree with you that lots of DECie in the field take car plan as parts
     of salary compensation when considering accept the job. However, I just
     have to say it's sad impression or expectation to start with. When the
     prosperity bubble is burst, reality will hurt our expectation more,
     Car plan is one example of it. I'm not saying car plan is right or wrong
     by keeping it or by eliminating it selectively. Someone up there will make
     better decision than I'm.
     All I try to say is, we in this computer industry better adjust our 
     expectation and awards now compare to 10-20 yrs ago when DEC is simply
     no competition at all.

     It's democracy country, thanks god, we can still vote by foot, not by 
     mouth. 
  
>    Does the powers that be really understand what it means to us?  Oh sure, 
>    they can justify it, but IT'S A WAGE CUT, NONTHELESS.
 
     Again, the same opinion. If Detroit exeutive listened 10 yrs ago, I don't
think President Bush will make this New Year's trip to Japan for auto business.

    Michael... (learing Reality by life)
    

    
    
    So when is Digital going to become a registered charity?
    
    When this corporation understands the difference between a cost and
    an investment, starts paying the money it should for the equipment
    and training its people need to do their jobs, stops asking its
    employees to "help it out", while gouging on review mechanisms
    which decide 12 months in advance how much money people are going to
    get, stops expecting employees to carry its debt on their credit
    cards and telephone bills...
    
    Digital management has to realise there is an investment in doing business
    to the standards set by our competitors. I for one would gladly welcome
    the exercise a company plan-A pushbike would provide (I'll even pay for
    the air in the tyres). But my customers may get a little annoyed having
    to ride on the luggage rack.
    
    We had some Microsoft people over to work on a joint bid. I think they
    drove here, because their hair wasnt messed up and I didnt notice any
    trouser clips. They had a LAPTOP PC with them, complete with every
    presentation they could give. That system had Windows 3.1 software
    running (in Field Test), which they entice customers with glimpses of. 
    This presenter had produced the demos at home, on the system he was showing
    to us. He didnt scrounge for cables, spend his own money to dial in. 
    Another Microsoft support person I know has a full complement of equipment 
    at home for mac and pc. Microsoft has worked out that the return on 
    investment in terms of customer responsiveness and the quality of 
    interaction is higher. Us, well, I'm glad we werent demoing at their
    place, because we would have had to borrow equipment or lug a full PC
    there.
    
    As for equipment, no one will sign off for a modem to use at home, even 
    though twenty hours of work would pay for it...its capital equipment, and 
    those sorts of things are frowned upon above. Someone here had his travel
    arrangements stopped 2 days before being due to go, cos 5 people from one
    country may look like a junket to those above. Some people were put on
    an NMS pilot scheme. When they were continually knocked back for the
    smallest purchases from above, they queried its worth and were told
    that "NMS didnt mean you had control".
    
    Digital should wake up and smell the roses, but wait, that's an
    external purchase...therefore its a. a cost b. mustn't be any good, cos
    we dont make roses ourselves....
    Why dont we start looking for ways to make money sensibly, in a
    considered business fashion. We've just sunk money into producing
    leading edge chip technologies that will end up dying or underperforming
    saleswise because the NO culture has become pervasive. That NO culture,
    looks upward to see what response allowing something to happen
    immediately will bring, rather than working to build greater results
    from actions and defending the potential for payback from the decision.
    
    Managers, fight for the innovative decisions and ideas of those below
    you. If they make a good case to you, dammit, try and carry that idea
    upwards. Stop wimping out! 
    
    Oh yes, company cars, nearly forget the latest disinvestment in the
    quality of resources this company has (and what is a company expect to
    application of the sum quality of its resources). Why isnt every
    manager, in every branch making this an action item on every meeting
    that they have with their management. Start earning your money!

    
    I think everyone should buy their own car and DEC just pay them say
    .25 a mile to use it.  Then when they get laid off, they still have
    transportation to find another job or if they just leave the
    company for one of the higher paying jobs, they don't have to
    worry about turning in the car or buying it at that time.
    
    Bob

    
>    I think everyone should buy their own car and DEC just pay them say
>    .25 a mile to use it.  Then when they get laid off, they still have
>    transportation to find another job or if they just leave the
>    company for one of the higher paying jobs, they don't have to
>    worry about turning in the car or buying it at that time.


How do you differentiate between those who occationally drive on Digital 
bussiness and those where that is their primary job?  I believe the later
must buy bussiness level car insurance at about twice the rate of non-bussiness
level insurance.  This is a fixed cost and not a per-mile cost.

I'm on car plan B and wouldn't mind being paid by the mile if it were fair
compensation for my actual cost (including increased insurance rates) and were 
not required to own a specific type of vehicle (I'd rather have a truck than 
a four door car).

I don't think 22.5 cents a mile adedequate compensation for the current 
level of costs


al

    When I was a service rep, the company paid me .20 per mile and
    $25 a week for insurance and other mainteance.  I just keep a
    log of mileage and turned it in each week and was paid right there
    for it.  Worked good for me.  When I left the company, the car was
    mine.
    
    Bob

    Back to the topic at hand, does anybody have any hard facts on whether
    or not the car plans (A and/or B) will be going away?  I think the
    topics of "benefit vs tool" and the mileage reimbursement rate have
    been discussed to death in other topics.  At this point, I am very
    concerned about this BENEFIT going away, on top of the Jan 1 92
    ripoff...uh, increase in health care costs.
    
    Jon

    	Today is the 16th of the month. Thursday. Payday. No one in this
    facility received their Plan B nor DECwagon payments today. They have
    been arriving consistently with the payroll date closest to the 15th
    each month since Fleet began distributing them via payroll.
    
    	Has this happened elsewhere today?
    
    	Oh, I know- DEC will issue the payments next week. I'll bet they'll
    even add on the <Flame ON> INTEREST THEY EARNED ON THESE FUNDS FOR THE 
    WEEK, TOO..<Flame off> yeah, that's the ticket.
    
    Phil

Re: .29 & .30:

I noticed a Xerox internal memo the other day: Their car mileage reimbursement 
was being increased from 26 cents to 28 cents per mile.

    We were told by our account vice president that perhaps in January they 
    may raise the monthly amount for Plan B to as much as $450 to make it
    very attractive for people to move over to plan B.  Also, they may
    raise the weekly personal use amount for plan A to $50.
    
    Anyone else heard that?  Obviously, January is out - maybe February??
    
    
    marti

    Well....if they take away the cars, I guess I'll run over to my dad's
    and get that '56 Volkswagen beetle... bye bye celeb...
    
    oops...I guess this is a discussion for carbuffs...

    A service engineer here in the Detroit area had to order a new car
    because he totaled his DECwagon, and he got a CHEVY LUMINA APV.

    Is this going to be the new DECwagon? 

    --- Paul

    At present or at least for the past year or so the Lumina APV has
    been one of the choices for digital services engineers along with
    the Ford Taurus Station Wagon. This is nothing new.
    
    MikeTurro
    

    We were told at the business meeting last night held at NETU that there
    will be no changes in the car plan for the remainder of the fiscal
    year. There is a person in charge of evaluating changes for the
    follow-on fiscal year (FY93). His name was given, but I didn't write it
    down and I'll have to find it out and ask his permission to post it.
    Maybe we should develop recommendations for a car plan and be
    pro-active. Their is genuine concern about any changes in the car plan
    and how the current Plan A/B community will react to it. 
    
    There is definite consideration for changing eligibility requirements
    to people who actually require it for business purposes.
    
    My suggestions are:
    
    	Create a Plan B based on individual factors that make up the cost
    of running a car such as lease cost, insurance by state, fees by state,
    plus the appropriate tax adder to offset tax consequences of the Plan B
    re-imbursement. The requirement for Digital as an insurance benificiary
    must be removed as it adds excessive cost or won't even be quated by
    some insurance companies.
    
    Plan B eligibility for cars must be based on the value of the car, not
    on mileage. Well-built cars such as Volvo or Mercedes retain value and
    safety and are built to last longer than Plan B allows for. If a car
    falls below 20% of its original value, then it no longer qualifies for
    Plan B. Also, as cars age, they require more maintenance than new cars
    and this becomes an alternate use for the Plan B re-imbursement. 
    
    Also, maybe a change such as grandfathering all Plan A participants,
    not allowing new Plan A members and once you go onto Plan B, you are no
    longer eligible for a Plan A car. Attrition and enhancmements to Plan B
    will move people to Plan A, eventually eliminating it. 
    
    Also, an incentive plan for purchasing Plan B cars could be initiated.
    The tax law allows Digital to give no interest loans. This imputed
    interest is an expense to the corporation and income to the employee.
    However, paying taxes on imputed interest is a lot cheaper than
    borrowing money to get a Plan B car. This would allow people to move to
    a Plan B without impacting their personal finances. It could be repayed
    with weekly payroll deductions over the expected life of the car and
    would be sold to DCU as a loan if the employee leaves the corporation.
    
    There are alot of options, what are your opinions?

    RE: .39-
    
    	I agree with many of the ideas you presented, however I don't
    expect the policies to be tailored to consider individual circumstances
    and location cost variables. This would require computers, databases
    and other overly democratic determinations ;-). 
    
    	Pardon the sarcasm, but I can't help but feel that the issue of
    Plan A personal mileage vs. distance of commute has been conveniently
    avoided by passing the financial settlement on to the IRS in the form
    of personal use benefit taxation. This avoids the disparities in the 
    value of the $30/week charge and puts the employee's mileage reporting
    at the helm.
    
    	The insurance issue of Plan B listing Digital as beneficiary isn't
    exactly that- my insurer issues a certificate naming DEC as additional
    insured. When this was mandated by Fleet several years back, I saw no
    increase in my premiums after adding this, and I've been unable to
    equate any line item charges for it. There is an endorsement added
    to the effect of Additional Insured- Employer, but apparently this is
    included as a service in the Business Use rate. Perhaps this varies by
    state?
    
    	During the VP state of the company meeting here this week, the
    one proposal of individual mileage accrual/month as criterion for 
    Plan A elegibility was questioned. The premise was that this would
    create a disparity in compensation among peers due to circumstances.
    The VP's reply was that the car was a tool, not compensation. This,
    of course, resulted in the audience reminding him that the IRS sure
    as h*ll considers it compensation!
    
    	The best recommendation IMHO was that whatever decisions are to be
    made, make them and get it over with. The response was that this time
    it won't be so insensitive as the last Plan A cancellation. Maybe
    that's good, I dunno.
    
    Phil

    You talked about insurance costs and you hit the nail on the head.
    Business use rates take into account naming Digital as an insured
    party. We need to compensate the Plan B user for the total business use
    of the car in question. 
    
    I agree with your sarcasm about the computer databases, etc. 
    
    The comment about the compensation is correct. After all these years,
    I forget what they said about the car in my interview. I now consider
    it a benefit. 
    
    We need to help the powers that be that they must disconnect current
    employees using Plan A/B with new employees that move onto Plan A/B.
    The basic problem is that they must grandfather all current Plan A
    users and move on. Time will solve this problem. If they had done this
    years ago, I believe a good portion of the problem would be solved.
    

    As I have understood the insurance issue, the ONLY reason Digital is
    asking to be listed as additional insured is in the event that your
    insurance is cancelled, Digital will be notified in writing.  You are
    required to carry insurance, and Digital simply wants to know if you
    cancel.
    
    It had no $ change in my insurance policy, and if it does in yours, I
    suggest you discuss this with your agent.  You may actually be paying
    for coverage you don't need.  I know it required more than one
    discussion with mine until we got it straight.
    
    Regards.
    
    pH

    	I think there's more to it than notice of cancellation. There's
    the issue of indemnity. My contention is that if you're involved in
    litigation, it requires your insurer to defend Digital as well as you
    if DEC were listed as _additional insured_. I don't think that's
    entirely the case with my policy. The edorsement is called "Additional
    interested party" or somesuch. This would make more sense in the
    context of cancellation notification only.
    
    	What really irks me is that you are required to the business rate
    regardless of the actual mileage you drive. There's no low mileage
    discount available with business use.
    
    
    Phil

    
    
      I don't qualify for a car,  but in order to fly a Private Aircraft
    on company business,  Digital also requires you to name them as an
    Additional insured on the -liability- portion of the policy.  The
    rational is  that Digital would be covered for any liability
    they incur as a result of your driving/flying.  This is important
    in states which allow "joint and several" liability awards, since
    if DEC is even 1% at fault,  they could wind up paying the entire
    judgement (including your share) if you don't (or can't).   
    Naming them as an additional insured guarantees that your policy 
    ends up paying,  no matter how the fault is divided between you 
    and Digital.
    
      As for the "Additional Interested party" stuff,  my guess is that
    either somebody made a mistake in approving that,  or your state
    doesn't allow "additional insured's"  and DEC settled for the 
    next best thing?
    
    							-al

re: .44

Al, when I was on Plan B a few years ago, all Digital cared about was the
'additional interested party' clause.  They wanted to make sure you had
insurance.

Bob

    RE: .44-
    
    	I dunno about a mistake or state rules, and I'm not asking 'em.
    
    Phil

    Re. Mid-Year meeting


    The car plans were also brought up at the Mid-Year meeting at my facility.
    The VP did say that the car plans were not going away this year. HOWEVER 
    areas will still be reviewed on a departmental basis. The car plan may 
    still go away, even if you do travel some business miles.  Certain areas 
    like Sales will not be losing the plans this fiscal year, so therefore, 
    it is not going away.

    I agree that we need to get our suggestions in front of the people who will
    be, and possibly currently are, making those decisions on how to transition
    us off both plans.  I've sent my suggestions to DELTA_IDEAS @OGO and they
    forwarded it on to fleet, though I've heard no word from them.  There
    is a conference under CAPNET::DELTA_IDEAS, topic #777.  Please add your
    suggestions as replies to that note, too.  I would hope that if enough of
    us speak up, maybe it won't be quite as painful in the wallet, when they
    do change or take us off the plans.


    Re. Insurance

    Your insurance didn't go up when you added an add'l insured, but it did go
    up when you changed your policy from personal use to business use.  And in
    some cases that can be quite a substantial amount.

    -Andrea

    The insurance price must be related to state rates.  My insurance did
    NOT go up when I switched to car plan B.
    
    pH in Georgia

    Pardon the late entry but I just gotta say - I'd give up my company car
    to keep my job, as I think a whole lot of us would.  But my vote
    doesn't count anymore - out the door on the 14th!
    
    SA

    I am in the process of switching from plan a to plan b and my insurance
    is going up by $25.00 per month.  
    
    Karen

Fleet just called my manager and told him that my Plan A car with 90K miles
on it was to be replaced with a new plan A car. Needless to say I'm happy 
about this. Apparently the "secret" is to somehow keep the wheels rolling long
enough. This is clearly a case-by-case process judging from the paperwork I've
got.

FWIW
Norm

    Last I heard it was 3 years or 60,000 miles.
    

    re: .51
    
    That was "discontinued" sometime last year (end of FY?).  Now it's up
    to fleet (or your manager) on trying to get a new car.
    
    --- Gavin
    who got a new "used" DECwreck after I blew my tranny

    Well what a surprise ! Today I  received a internal envelope with
    guess what.... A package to reorder a new vehicle.
    
    The cover page says "This vehicle is scheduled for replacement due to
    high mileage or extended time in service..............
    
    Granted DEC just paid about $1,200.00 repairing various parts etc...
    But Im pleasantly surprised that this came from out of the blue..
    
    My car at present has about 93k on it but since the repairs seems in
    tip top shape.
    
    MikeTurro
    

    I's sure this is covered somewhere but I can't seem to find it.
    
    If we are on car plan A, do we need to file a form 2106 on our
    federal income taxes?
    
    	Dwight

    ..but your excess personal use ends up on your W2 as income.

    Or as in my case, a reduction!  I drive an average of 30K per year with
    around 80% business.
    
    greg_t

    I just received a "surprise" application to fill out for a new A plan
    car. It was a surprise since I had heard 1 month ago that one had to be
    at 90,000 miles before replacement was warranted. You may recall that
    it used to be 60,000 was the magic number.  I am at 73,000.  The
    offerings are Taurus, Lumina and Taurus wagon and Lumina APV for
    customer service folks.
    
    Options are not cheap but it's been so long since I got a car, I may
    have forgotten.  I am wondering how the B plan compares these days?
    Anyone know if it is any better or expected to get there soon?

    Anyone know what Digital is paying Gelco per month per car to maintain
    the fleet?
    f

    The cost per month to my CC is $500, as opposed to $200 for plan B. 
    As a plan B participant, that sure rubs me the wrong way.
    
    Al
    

    Send something to Delta.  If Digital would pay us the $500/month for 
    using our own car I dare say everyone would opt for plan B.  I don't
    know what the tax advantage it for paying a third party that amount 
    rather then pay the employee and let them worry about everything.  I
    guess they look at other companies and do about what others do and 
    don't look at the possibility they are in the same shape we are.  The
    money would be taxable to us but I know I could maintain a new car at
    that price.
       The new wagons are up to $17k and $200/month just doesn't look good.
       I figured that DEC is paying out $18k in three years for a $17k car.
    That wouldn't include other paper work and hidden expenses.  If they 
    would up the plan B to $400/month , which would draw many people, then 
    they could be looking at saving at least $3600/person that went to plan
    B. If 1000 people would then switch to plan B. DEC would save over a
    million a year.  At $400/month I believe there would be a 1000 in the 
    country that would do it.

    Well, MHO:
    
    I just sent a DELTA suggestion which I realize is not particularly
    feasible, but fairer than What we have or any of the suggestions that
    I've heard.
    
    I was in the same VP meeting a while back that Phil mentioned in an
    earlier reply.  It was stated that Digital considers the car plan to be
    a TOOL.  If that is the case, then Digital should provide the cars with
    the stipulation that there be NO personal miles.  In fact, the cars,
    when not being used directly for company business, would remain parked
    AT THE OFFICE.  The employee would not pay anything for the use of the
    car since he wouldn't be using the car for anything other than a TOOL
    for the company's benefit.  Digital should save money, because there
    will be a decrease in gasoline, maintenance and vehicle replacement. 
    This is the only way the car could be considered as a tool only.  Also,
    we will no longer worry about all the specific circumstances like,
    (using a CS example) two people doing the same job, but one has
    customers who are closer so he puts 100 mi per month fewer miles on his
    car and loses his car because the cut off is 50 miles more than his
    average.
    
    Now, before I am inundated with replies,  I know this won't happen.  I
    know we don't have parking lots big enough to accomodate basically 2
    vehicles per person.  I know that there are financial matters not taken
    into account.  I'm just saying that the only truly equitable way for
    Digital to pay for the TOOL, and to keep it fair amongst the employees
    is to provide the tool, pay for it, and not "give away" the use of the
    tool to any employees.
    
    

    re: .62
    
    But, as many would reply, "I weighted the company car as a benefit when
    hiring on."  If the company offered me $400 a month, I would definitely
    go to plan B.  Even $395 would be enough :)
    
    --- Gavin

    I don't think everyone is thinking straight. $400 a month for Plan B?
    You've got to be kidding. Review the car plan. See what you get for it.
    You get a fully maintained, fully insured vehicle. In NJ, we speak
    about this option. However, in our case, if we don't want to impact our
    current salaries, the amount is closer to $1000/month. This leaves us
    with $700/month for the car. Most people tend to use a car up in 2
    years. A 2-year 60,000 mile car lease (if you can get it) starts at 
    $450/month. Car dealers are not magnanamous, they want to be paid for
    the car. A 2 year car with 60,000 miles is basically worthless. The
    wear and tear and therfore maintenance of this kind of use must be
    accounted for. In NJ, car insurance alone must be budgeted at
    $150/month. 
    
    I know it's a tool. However, if you want to start downsizing the
    program, start with the new people. Only offer them Plan B. Then, as
    people move to other jobs, their car goes away. If they come back to a
    "car" position, again only Plan B is available. If this had been
    started when the "problem" first became known, we might have a lot less
    cars now.

    re:.63
    
    I understand that many people were presented with the idea that the car
    was a benefit when they hired on.  I'm not disputing that.  All I'm
    saying is that if Digital now wants to claim that the car is a TOOL,
    then it shouldn't cost the employee anything to have the tool available
    for business use.
    
    Right now, if I don't want to provide a car for business use (plan b)
    then I MUST pay $30 per week (plan a).  Even if I only use it for 
    business and drive it to and from work, I must pay that $30.  I don't 
    even have the option of leaving the car at the office so that no 
    personal miles (to and from work) are accrued and not paying the $30.  
    I thought it was a whole lot more equitable back in '85 when the employee 
    paid a per mile rate ($.08) for each personal mile.
    
    As it stands, there is no way for me to do my job without paying
    something for a car.  Either I have plan A and have to pay for personal
    miles without the option of putting no personal miles on the vehicle or
    I have plan B and must provide a vehicle to use for business.  I
    understand that with plan b I am compensated for the business use, but
    in my mind it is a crap shoot whether or not it is reasonable
    compensation.  Besides, to me there is a hassle factor with plan b.
    
    So, the only way I see for Digital to provide the tool, and be sure that 
    neither Digital nor the employee is taking it in the shorts, is in 
    reply .62.

When I go on a business trip I sometimes leave my car in the parking lot at 
the Digital office and do not pay the $30 personal use fee. I don't see why, if 
you were so inclined, you couldn't do this every week...

Jim

    I have tried this explanation before with no one understanding my
    point.  Think of this typical situation. 
    
    DECmobil kept in office parking lot overnight.  DECcie always goes to
    office - even when assigned full time to a customer site.  This is the 
    usual Software Services/PSS/EIS/DS situation.  Average time from DEC
    office to customer = half hour each way.  LOST REVENUE TO DEC IS ONE
    WHOLE HOUR PER DAY.  Big bucks!
    
    That is why companies offer car plans. For many years no one objected
    to my counting mileage from home to customer as DEC's miles on my
    vehicle expense form.
    
    Then, apparently, IRS and DEC got together somehow about five years ago
    and "commuting" mileage was deemed as not to be attached to the
    DECmobile as DEC's usage.  It is a DEC tool, that is why we have them -
    and for the above reason.  The IRS is sticking it to both of us. We are
    too small to fight it and I guess DEC does not want to and is taking
    the easy way out.
    
    Oh, by the way:  My boss says I must go directly to the customer site
    from home.  Why is he saying that?  For exactly the above reason.
    
    Fred

>   Right now, if I don't want to provide a car for business use (plan b)
>   then I MUST pay $30 per week (plan a).  Even if I only use it for 
>   business and drive it to and from work, I must pay that $30.  I don't 
>   even have the option of leaving the car at the office so that no 
>   personal miles (to and from work) are accrued and not paying the $30.  
>   I thought it was a whole lot more equitable back in '85 when the employee 
>   paid a per mile rate ($.08) for each personal mile.
    
    Good point.  I was looking at this issue from the standpoint of using my
    DECwreck as my primary means of transportation.  Does anyone know if
    there is a way to provide a company vehicle to be used only for
    business-related activities?
    
    --- Gavin
    (Who would even accept $380/month for Plan B.  Any takers?)

    re: .66
    
    If I go on vacation for a week or two, I AM allowed to leave the car at
    the office, mark the UNASSIGNED box on my expenses and not pay
    the $30 as mentioned in .66.  However, I attempted to convince the
    powers that be to allow me to do this all the time and was refused. 
    One reason they gave was that there wouldn't be enough parking at the
    facility if everyone did it.  Another was simply that it wasn't policy.
    
    Ken
    

    
    
    One of the reasons Digital doesn't want the cars left at the office
    at night, is for the obvious security reasons.  They would have to
    provide security for those unattended vehicles, the same security we
    are providing for them when we park them in our garages and driveways. 
    I say we should be invoicing the company for leased space on our
    property:-)...
    
    jon
    

    Does anyone see the connection between the comments in .69 and .70 and
    mine in .67? -- Fred

    The following was extracted from VTX in the US Fleet topic.
    
Bulletin                                                 
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq
Car Plan Update                Effective:4-May-1992 
Policy No. 2.0                 Revision: 4-May-1992 
qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqq


 COMPANY CAR PLANS
 
 Answers to the questions asked during FY92 Mid-Year Business Meetings held
 during week of February 2nd.  ( As it appeared in Digital Today, Volume 3, 
 Issue 9, March 2, 1992)
 
 Q:  Has the car plan changed?
 
 A:  No, it has not changed and no decisions have been made.  The U.S. Team 
 is examining ways to increase the fairness and cost effectiveness of the 
 plans.  We're benchmarking ourselves against other companies in terms of 
 features and, of course, cost.  These studies, in a nutshell, indicate that
 our 'Plan B' needs upgrading and that 'Plan A' costs Digital too much.
 
 One Area of concern you raised during the Mid-Year Business Meeting was around
 the vehicle replacement policy.  As a result the U.S. Business Transportation
 group has advised cost center managers that they have begun the replacement 
 process for older, high mileage vehicles.  It is being accomplished in a 
 controlled manner by distributing replacement applications to the cost center
 managers for specific vehicles.

 Q:  How is any change going to impact me?
 
 A:  When decisions are made, they will be communicated to you.  We recognize
 the importance of the car plans to individuals and will stress 'win-win'
 alternatives.  
 
 The intent of any change in the car plan is to enhance 'Plan B' to make it 
 more attractive to individuals, while looking for lower cost alternatives for
 'Plan A'.  We have no plans to cancel 'Plan A'.

    At our mid-year meeting, the Corporate individual commented that they
    were studying various options around plan A and plan B, and they wanted
    to make sure that they "didn't do something stupid".
    
    It seems to me that to take months and months and years and years
    studying something to death is STUPID!
    
    As someone on plan B (my choice) I find it STUPID that the company has
    seen fit only to raise plan B from $180/month when I joined the company in
    1980 to $200/month 12 years later.  My insurance alone is $100/month.
    
    My understanding is that PLAN A costs my manager $550/month.  Add to
    that the $130/month that I kick in, and you have $680/month put in and
    all you get out is a Ford Taurus.  What a waste!  Kick up the Plan B
    $$$ to something more reasonable, and many people will opt to go to
    Plan B.  As a suggestion of what others are doing, one of the people
    that got TFSO'd in our office went to work for Avnet.  Their plan is
    $350/month plus Avnet covers their insurance.  --Makes me feel like an
    idiot for accepting only $200!
    
    Let's stop studying it to death and do someting!!
    

    Someone I work with called, regarding raising the plan 'B' amount, and
    stated that they had heard numbers like 300.00 or 400.00.  The person
    from corporate pointed out that the last increase went from 180.00 to
    200.00, but that now taxes are taken out up-front.  They indicated that
    the increase would likly be between 20.00-100.00, but probably wouldn't
    take effect until next spring-summer (as in '93)
    
    I feel kinda silly myself for being on plan 'B', and ignoring free
    money...
    
    Mark
    

Don't feel silly.  You (and I) get to drive a car of our own choosing.  We're
not forced to drive a funny-looking big American boat with automatic
transmission.

    From todays DVN....I took the following notes...
    
    Changes to Plan A:
    	- addition of a smaller size "midsize" car, in addition to 
    	  the current 'full' size cars (Taurus)
    	- Personal Use will now be based on actual miles.  Charge will
    	  be $.225 per mile for full size cars (Taurus etc.) and .19 for
    	  mid size....Don Z. didn;t go into details as to what midsize
    	  cars were.
    	- Minimum mileage (business) to qualify for the car plan.  500
    	  miles initially, probably evolving to 800 miles (per month) to 
    	  participate/qualify
    
    Plan B:
    	- Reimbursement of $350/month as a base, 
    	- Adjustment based upon geography, and cited the following
    	  examples:
    		o Alpharetta, GA - $354
    		o Los Angeles - 494
    		o Marlboro - 367
    		o New Jersey - 390
    
    That's all I had....I didn't stick around for the Q&A...back to
    generating my $revenue per this employee....
    
    gil
    
    

    Re: .-1

    You indicate a minimum mileage to qualify for plan A.  Does anybody
    know if there is a mileage qualification for plan B?


    Charlie

    
    
    	from the Q & A, the same question was asked.
    
    	Yes, the qualification mileage is the same for plan B

RE .77

	As part of the Q&A Don Z said the same 500->800 mile per month avg
would apply to plan B also. Bottom line seem to be: if your not avg 500 business
miles per month you will no longer qualify for plan A or plan B. Details will
be sent out in a few weeks.

    I didn't have anything in my notes....
    
    The DVN is still going on...if you want to talk to Don.
    

    So, if you went out and bought a car on plan B, got a 4 year loan, have
    made 4 payments, you can expect to foot the entire bill if you don't
    'qualify' now?
    
    

In otherwords, company cars are being gotten rid of.  

>>In otherwords, company cars are being gotten rid of.  

No, the benifit of having a company car to do personal errands in has been
gotten rid of.

Will we have company cars to do company related errands?  Perhaps
I might choose not to have a car.  I might choose to carpool to work instead.

    What about reversing the seats and driving the car in reverse on
    personel time. This way you get paid 22.5 cents a mile for personal
    miles..... instead of the other way around....
    
    
    Sorry, if we don't laugh we might as well cry..... 
    
    

    Some of us who have not purchased a new car in the last 10 years, it
    means an instant $5K drop in salary. Company car was a great benefit.
    
    Vern Dutta.

    When I returned from the part of the DVN I heard and commented on the
    car plan news, the first reactions I got were on how it would tempt
    people to do dumb/marginally honest things to stay qualified. There
    will always be someone who "averages" just less than the minimum...
    
    e.g. someone averaging 475 miles/month (or whatever number) may be
    tempted to "pad" to meet guidelines
    
    e.g.2. someone who wants to keep there car/$ simply visits sites
    (taking parking, driving, etc. time) instead of making a phone call (to
    make sure they keep the mileage up), wasting parking $, travel time,
    etc.
    
    

    
    So I guess that being a resident engineer at a site close to the office
    means I take a major pay cut for doing my job? I still have the same
    space requirements (ie carrying big digtial things), so this means
    getting a Taurus-sized replacement at my own cost. This sounds like a
    fair way to get the "no-load" car plan users out of there. |-(
    
    DEC has always lagged behind in car plans, maybe this is a way to nudge
    the non-tfso'd to move on down the road? In their own cars...
    
    .mike.

The problem with the stuff previously discussed is the same one as last
time they tried to get rid of plan A:  There are 1000's of people (like
me) who were hired into Digital with the incentive of a company car as a
fringe benefit. "...and plus you get a company car that we look at as
$5000 in salary...".   

While this is clearly against corporate policy, when being hired in
one does not have access to the Orange Book.

John

    RE: Several of the last few notes.
    
    I heard that the 500 mile qualification would be determined from a
    six month average.  Since our site was knocked out by storms during
    Q&A we didn't hear the question about how it extended to PLAN B as
    well.  If that's the case, I sense a major problem brewing.
    
    Let's say I meet the 500 mile guideline today based on the six month
    average, and at some point it changes to 800 miles.  When does the
    mile qualification change, is it measured the same?  Next, it doesn't
    seem to me it serves DEC any benefit to lease a PLAN A car for x term,
    and then take it away 2-3 months later because I don't meet the 800
    mile threshold.  Perhaps more disturbing, I decide to take PLAN B,
    4 year loan or lease and boom no more PLAN B.  Seems like a lot risk
    to me and to DEC.  I thought the plan was to get people to Plan B.
    
    I guess we'll need to wait for the package of materials being sent
    out over the next few weeks before this is all official.  
    
    I must agree with a previous noter, seems like this will naturally
    cause 'a new pattern of behavior' by some people especially
    when it's $5K of your own money on the line.                     

    You know, I feel like someone just hid me in the middle of the forehead
    with a steel-reinforced 2x4. I understand the need, however the
    implementation leaves a lot to be desired.
    
    I'd like to see the data of how many people complained that $30/wk for
    the car was too much to pay. 
    
    According to the information I have heard, Runzheimer is a
    company-oriented cost estimation service. These are the numbers used
    when companies want to reduce the amounts to employees.
    
    To me, a better way to implement this plan would be:
    
    	1. Grandfather all Plan A participants.
    	2. If you leave plan A, you never get back on.
    	3. In regard to 1, all new employees qualifying for a car have
    	   the choice of plan B or C.
    	4. Choose 3 cost estimation services and take the average of what
    	   they all say it costs to run a car in a particular area.
    
    It seems sad that Digital is trying to balance its books on the backs
    of the employees.

I work in eis and most of my work is on customer sites. These sites range from
20 to 140 miles (round trip) away. If I am working at the 140 mile site I have
over 2800 miles a month (plus burn out from the commuting!) but if I work at the
close site I have 400 miles. I have no control over where the business is booked
(I do system management,capacity planning and performance tuning) and if the
business can be done in the office my business milage is 0. Will I qualify to
keep my car? Should I? who knows!!!!

I consider the company car as a greeat perk, but it is also compensation for
the 3 hours of commuting that I am forced to do on my OWN time, if I have to 
work in Greenwich when my condo is 1 mile from the office in Rocky Hill CT.

I expect that exagerated miles to customer sites will become the norm for people
trying to keep their company cars.
Dan Buckley, CT eis

    Depending upon how this is implemented, it can be either a real
    nightmare or something reasonable.  Even though I will probably lose my
    Plan B payment, I'm all for making the cars plans 'needs-based'.
    
    re: people not reporting personal mileage due to the removal of the
    $30/week fee.  The Plan A people pay $.055 (?)/personal mile under the
    current plan.  My thought is that those who cheat under the current
    plan will continue to cheat under the new plan.  Those who don't,
    won't.
    
    Bob

    Re .93
    
    Remember that driving to your home to your first work assignment is
    personal miles.  In effect, if the company adheres strictly to policy,
    your commute to the remote location will not qualify you for business
    use.  The fix is to drive to the office first, and then to your remote
    location.

    Was there any mention or questions about grandfathering this new plan
    in?

RE: Dan,  

EIS,  you mean Digital Services don't you.....

Us Digital Services folk get screwed no matter how you look at it...
Yes the car was dangled like a carrot.  Weather that was right or not
is irrelevant. 

Questions?

If I drive more that 50 miles from my house as a first stop, is that
personal mileage?  Even if my local office is only 5 miles away.
I'm in the same situation as stated a few back.  I can be real close,
or real far. (5 to 100 miles.)  Do I go on the plan and off the plan?
Am I forced to buy a new car?  Can I use my old 85 Buick Century that
used to be drive to Brookly NY(You know how New York roads are!)
Now when I have problems with my old clunker, will digital rent me a car
to get back and forth to work, which could be a distance away.  Does Digital
want me to show up in a car the has multiple scratches in it (One that says
F__K you), or dent's.  Does digital want to display that image?
Will digital help me to buy a new car if I'm not allowed to use my old one.
Can I use my 86 Dodge Van (Canadian Built)... Better shape, and no nasty
scratches??  Who is going to pay for damages to my vehicle when I get sent
to East New York(Worse than south Boston)! God fobid it get's stolen?

And who can I ask about these questions?

- Mike ( A Little Concerned )

    I like a fellow consultant's idea: if a car is not a requirement for my
    job, then my wife can drop me off at the office at 8:15 and it's
    Digital's business to get me to the customer site (0, 10, or 100 miles
    away) *and* back by 5 PM.  If there's room in the limo for a
    VAXstation, I suppose all that travel time won't be wasted....

    If we must now pay .225 cents per personal mile that works out to $90+
    a week for me since I live 40 miles from the office.  I couldn't afford
    to stay on Plan A even if I could meet the mileage limits.  Let's
    see... I could go to a customer site near home every morning and night. 
    I know, I just got a DECpc.  I'll put it on contract and log a call
    every day.

>    If we must now pay .225 cents per personal mile that works out to $90+
>    a week for me since I live 40 miles from the office.  I couldn't afford
>    to stay on Plan A even if I could meet the mileage limits.  

	Well, people like me were tired of subsidizing people like you.
I live 3.5 miles from the office, and most weeks, put less than 100
*personal* miles on the car.  I was paying $30/week, and under the
new plan, I would pay around $20 or so.  But, I already wised up and 
switched to Plan B.

	Obviously, there are winners and losers in this game.  But now
it's fairer.  Someone who lives 40 miles from work should expect
his/her commuting expenses to be more than one who lives 3.5 miles
away.  

Frank

    RE: Several notes complaining about the proposed Car Plan
    
    I rarely enter notes here, but in the course of looking up the
    commentary on yesterday's DVN I started to read this notes string. 
    Several of the notes epitomized to me the attitudes that got DEC into
    its current state.  Yesterday's DVN addressed this attitudes directly,
    but sadly it appears that some employees have yet to understand the
    message.  Anyway, here goes...
    
    1.  "The Car Plan is part of my compensation"
    
    If you were told that by your manager, shame on him/her.  If you
    believed it, call me.  I've got some beachfront property that you'd be
    interested in.
    
    In any case, this attitude is the height of selfishness.  That an
    individual is concerned about their car when good, dedicated employees
    are losing their jobs is beyond my comprehension. 
    
    2.  "I'll cheat to make the 500 mile/month limit."
    
    This is theft pure and simple.  Send me your badge number and manager's
    name.  I'm sure that there are several employees who are being TFSO'd 
    this week who'd love your job (and willing to use their own cars to do
    it).
    
    3.  "I live 99 miles from work and..."
    
    DEC is not responsible for your personal choices in life.
    
    4.  "If DEC takes my car, then I'll do X" (X being some unpleasant
    consequence for DEC).
    
    Where have you been for the last three years?  Grow up already.
    
    Back to work.
    
    TD
    

No where in the job descriptions have I read, "Car is a requirement."

>Someone who lives 40 miles from work should expect
>his/her commuting expenses to be more than one who lives 3.5 miles
>away.  

That makes a lot of sense on the face of it, until you have to deal with the
situation of alot of us who have NO fixed work site.  I spend virtually ALL
of my time at customer sites.  I would like nothing better than living
next to work.  When "work" is 20 miles one way this month and 50 miles the
other way next month, that is impossible.  The IRS, and hence Digital,
considers this still "commuting", and thus personal usage.  I could go to the
ofice first and last each day, but that would be wasting my time and Digitals
money, and I won't do it.  So I pay the penalty.  

Sort of the worst of both worlds:
I cannot move close to work or take advantage of car/vanpools since my work
location is shifting constantly, and
I cannot claim that the usage of a car (mine or Digital's) is "business", like
a salesman could.

As to the long-awaited "what are you whining about, I don't even get a
car" notes:

There is some truth in what you say, however: The impact to my pocketbook
(already marginally surviving) is exactly the same as a 5-7K salary cut.
Strictly speaking, it is NOT a salary cut since the car was not "officially"
part of my compensation, but that makes no difference when I have to pay bills.

Kevin

	I really appreciate the current Plan A benefit.  I don't want to
	see it change.  I haven't seen the DVN message and only know what
	I read here.  But that's not the issue.

	What bothers me is not the changes so much - I've been expecting some
	changes for a while now....  what bothers me is the reaction of many
	of the past notes  - suggesting that cheating on mileage reports and
	these expenses is expected and sounds like it is the "normal" thing
	to do to keep the benefit.

	Folks, maybe I'm old fashioned.  I thought expenses and everything we
	do were supposed to be done on an honest basis.  I think it is 
	deplorable when we degrade to such a point that cheating, lying, 
	pilfering, etc. are used as a normal way of doing business.  

	How we handle the little things like expense accounts most likely rolls
	over to our actions in the way we do business, the way we treat our
	customers, and probably everyting we do in our daily lives.  

	If our employer can't trust us to honestly report the true expenses
	we incur according to the rules they set out, then what can Digital
	trust us with?  Terms like fraud and deception come to mind.  And should
	be dealt with appropriately.

	I would like to see some form of grandfathering for the existing cars
	in the fleet and for those who are currently on plan B.  I don't
	want to loose any benefits.  But I don't want to loose my job, either.
	If we need to cut expenses and overhead, this is just one of the dozens
	of areas that could be affected.  

	But please.... don't suggest to me that cheating, lying and 
	misrepresentation of the truth is a viable response to any problem.

		--chas

	

	

    Say, the plant I'm working at is shutting down.  The one I'm supposed
    to return to tells me I don't have a job and has been bought out by
    another company.  I probably won't have much of a commute in a month or
    so..........No TSFO.....one (that's right ONE) day short of
    getting my five years in.  Well, let you cheaters, malcontents, ride
    tricycles!
    
    Dave
    I spell chicked

    re:.101
      I could not have said it better.
    This is the reason that the old timers are being replaced by the 
    "new blood" division. No matter what the company tries to do the notes
    files light up with complainers. Makes me sad folks.
    
    kevin

    
    re: the car as part of your compensation.
    
    I used to work out of the New York office.  Because of that I got the
    Walking Allowance, which was presented to me as part of my
    compensation, both orally and in my offer letter, when I started at
    Digital.
    
    Now, nearly a decade later, because of a reorg I now work for a manager
    not in New York and am no longer eligible for the allowance.  "No
    problem," says my new manager, "we'll give you a car instead."
    
    It is abundantly clear to me that management, at least at the local
    level, considers the car as part of one's compensation and presents it as
    such to employees.  Contrary to what .101 says it should not be
    incumbant on the employee to determine whether or not the manager is
    lying to him or not.  
    
    It is tantamount to a pay cut and management should have the cojones to
    call it such.
    
    btw - I won't meet the 500 mile/month minimum either.  My customer is
    only 8 miles from the office which is 30 miles from home.  My old
    office that I was quite happy at was only 6 miles from home.
    
    							-Sal

    I am really disappointed in the change in the car plan concrning
    the addition of a 500 and 800 mile requirement.  Being is EIS
    makes my business travel quite unpredictable.  
    
    Does anyone know who we can address our concerns to, or influence
    to change this new procedure?
    
    Lauren Woods

    I've been following this notes conference for a while, and its 
    refreshing to see replies such as .101 and .106.  I didn't think
    people of that mindset (in touch with reality) were to be found
    at Digital.  The company does not owe you a car.  The company does
    not even owe you a job.  The way I see it, cutting the car plan in
    total for a majority of the participants is one of the best ways to
    cut costs so that some of you corporate leeches can continue to 
    suck on the nipple.
    
    Most of you seem to be only interested in driving the company to
    ruin.  Makes a lot of sense.  Why keep a job when you can have a
    car.
    
    Nice attitude

   Fact: Digital is not supposed to use company cars as compensation.
   
   Fact: Digital did do this.  A lot.  Our district manager in the early 
         80's "approved" this for Dayton, Ohio because he couldn't pay 
   	 people enough to work for Digital there.  Plan A cost an
   	 employee $9/wk then.
   
   Fact: Plan A cars are worth between $4K and $6K in actual salary
   	 depending on your specific financial situation and the
   	 calculations you use.
   
   Fact: Those of us who did receive a company car as compensation, and
   	 recognized it as such planned our finances around that. 
         (I.E. we didn't have to budget for a personal car.)
   
   
   Assumption: $4K-$6K represents around 10% of Plan A person's 
   	       compensation.
   
   Assumption: Most Plan A people agree that those who have no business
   	       justification for a Plan A should not have one (I have
   	       one, I don't think there is a business need).
   
   Assumption: Most people in Digital would be royally ticked if they
   	       were targetted for a 10% pay cut while a good chunk of
   	       Digital were not simply because Digital made some 
   	       stupid decision 10 years ago.
   
   
   The thing is those of us who do not qualify for the 500/800 miles now
   seem to not even have Plan B to fall back on.  Don Z. was not correct
   when he said the 500 mi. minimum would not be a problem for most
   people (I seem to recall his phrasing to indicate hardly anyone would
   have a problem).  
   
   A lot of EIS (SWS) people will not qualify because the 50-150 miles
   round trip Digital requires us to drive to distant customer sites
   (from our houses) is not considered business miles by Digital or the
   IRS.  Of the 22 people in my unit only 5 have office space supplied
   to them by Digital (2 of which are secretaries and 1 is my manager).
   
   I do not say Digital should continue to give me a Plan A or Plan B
   car if there is no business justification for it.  But I do expect
   them to be equitable and reasonable  about it.
   
   I would not mind if:
   
   1) Digital gave me an immediate raise to adjust my salary.  As part
      of that raise they would give me $2000 of it in cash up front so I would
      have a down payment for a car.
   
   2) Digital says, "Steve, this is your last car.  Your out of pocket
      will stay the same ($30/wk), [I would even agree to going up to
      $40/wk].  But start planning."  This would give me the time I need
      to adjust my personal budget to fit a non-reimbursed car into it.
   
   I actually prefer approach #2.  Because this is best for me an the
   company.  They don't raise my salary (therefore, they only have to
   carry a compensation for 2 yrs. instead of my career).  I have time
   to get my budget into line for a car.
   
   I am in a real bind.  If I stay on Plan A my out of pocket goes from
   $30/wk to $90/wk just in driving to my house and the customer site
   and back.  That could change tomorrow.  If my manager reassigned me
   to another site twice as far from my house, that cost would go up to
   $180/wk. If I can't go to Plan B I am likely to lose my car
   entirely.  I now have to come up with several hundred $/mo. to make
   up for this.  My budget won't allow this.

    Re: .101

    If you have somehow managed to convince yourself that the anger felt
    by some employees overwhat amounts to a substantial reduction in pay
    "epitomized to me the attitude that got DEC into its current state,"
    then you are clueless in regards to our corporate problems.
    
    > 1.  "The Car Plan is part of my compensation"
    >
    > If you were told that by your manager, shame on him/her.  If you
    > believed it, call me.  I've got some beachfront property that you'd be
    > interested in.

    In my case, the car plan was presented to me as part of the benefits
    package from the beginning.  My hiring manager as well as the district
    manager with whom I had my final interview pushed the car as a benefit.
    In fact, I believe that the car was mentioned in my offer letter.

    Every year, I receive a notice from Digital informing me of the amount
    that will be added to my W-2 to cover "valuation of certain fringe 
    benefits;" specifically, my plan A car.  Note that it does not say
    "charge for personal use of business tools", but "fringe benefits."

    Corporate newspeak may want to call it a tool, but in the opinion of
    the Internal Revenue Service, it's a benefit.  And as anyone who's ever 
    filed a tax form knows, the only opinion that counts is that of the IRS.

    The fact is, my compensation is in danger of being cut significantly
    and no asinine reference to "beachfront property" is going to change
    that.
    
    > In any case, this attitude is the height of selfishness.  That an
    > individual is concerned about their car when good, dedicated employees
    > are losing their jobs is beyond my comprehension. 

    Again, you've missed the point, or are ignoring it.  No one's claiming
    that these restrictions on the car plans are going to save jobs.  Remember,
    we're only eliminating those positions that management has decided we 
    don't need.  The fact that good, dedicated employees were filling those
    positions appears to be just an unfortunate side effect.  Attempts to
    make people feel guilty about concerns with providing for their family
    and future by drawing fictitious links to layoffs is rather a cheap shot.
    Perhaps several thousand dollars is no big deal to you.  If that's the
    case, please accept my congratulations on your financial independance.
    
    > 2.  "I'll cheat to make the 500 mile/month limit."
    >
    > This is theft pure and simple.  Send me your badge number and manager's
    > name.  

    I have no intention of cheating on my expenses.  I'll tell you what
    though, I'll be taking a much closer look at my business activity and
    make sure I take credit for EVERY mile to which I'm entitled.

    If you'd like my manager's name, drop me a note at DWOVAX::EROS, and 
    I'll be happy to give it to you.  I don't tend to readily pass around
    my badge number, after all, with all those "selfish" employees running
    about, who knows what might be done with it.
    
    > DEC is not responsible for your personal choices in life.
    
    Thanks ever so much for that pearl of wisdom.  Trite comments like
    that lead me to believe that you really have missed the point.

    -- Tony Eros
       Digital Services/EIS
       Wilmington, Delaware

    
    re .-1
    
    The Company car has been a fringe benifit, and for some of us it
    means a 5 to 7k lose in income. Given the current envirorment in
    Digital it's an encentive for us to move on, and I'm sure that is
    the main reason for the car plan change.
    
    
    
    

The problem that I see is when someone is required to commute to a
customer site from home, the extra miles (greater than the normal
travel to the office) cannot be counted as 'business' miles.

I think these should be counted as 'business' miles and not
'normal commute' miles....both by the IRS and DEC.  If including them
still does not bring you up to the minimum, you likely do not need
a car.

Is it really true that the IRS does not allow them?  how is that
written in the tax laws?
bob

    What some of you short sighted individuals don't seem to realize
    is that company cars are used for more than just transporting one
    DECie from point A to point B. Sales people are often required to
    carry customers, and demonstrator equipment. We in Digital Services
    carry large quantities of parts, tools, and test equipment around
    on a regular basis.
    
    I do not qualify under the 500 mile rule because I am a resident
    engineer at a gov't site. However, in the last 6 months I have
    transported several ton af parts in my DecWagon, including over
    250 RA82 HDAs (Seven at a time!). I am not about to abuse my own
    car, which is a very small compact, in this way.
    
    I seldom use the DecWagon for anything except work. I feel that
    I have been paying $30 a week for the honor of providing security
    for a valuable company asset by parking the damned thing at my
    house each night. I've seen several company vehicles vandelized
    while parked in the office parking lot over night. 
    
    You people who feel that a DecWagon is some great perk really get
    me. I'd be glad to leave it at the office each night, and save the
    $130 a month. But the car wouldn't be safe, it'd be a pain when I'm
    on stand-by, and management frowns on it. So, now it looks like
    I'll have to start spending hundreds of dollars a month on courier
    services to deliver parts (DEC's dollars!), cause I'm not going to
    destroy my little car doing it, and I'm certainly not going into
    debt to buy a bigger one!
    
    

    
    
    
        Times change - this one has been brewing for some time. I felt the
    $30 a week was somewhat resonable and I'm probably 35% personal/65%work 
    in the equation. I have no problem making the 500 mile requirement and
    it seems fair since it would mean a person putting 12,000 miles a year
    on the car would be 50/50 at 500 miles a month. I'm sure the Fleet 
    Adminstration costs are astronomical enough to require some revision
    and no one in here actually expected it to get cheaper/better. 
        
        						-John R-

    re: .113
    
>Is it really true that the IRS does not allow them?  how is that
>written in the tax laws?
    
    Yes it is true.  I haven't bothered to read the laws, but the CPAs who
    did my tax returns when I was in PSS told me the same thing.
    
    Bob
    

   The group that is getting shafted (mostly) by this change are EIS
   (SWS) people.  I suspect the people who are going to scream the most
   belong to this group (I do).
   
   Sales reps and hardware support (FS) will probably not be greatly
   impacted by this because I believe most of their milage is business
   miles. Sales reps had better be making the monthly minimum.  If not,
   what are they doing?  How do they sell to customers if you don't go see
   them?  Hardware support should have not problem.  The sales support
   in my office may not have a problem (I don't know about other
   offices).
   
   This is because these people have an "office" supplied by Digital. 
   When they travel from that office to a customer site it is business
   miles.
   
   Of the twenty-five people in my unit, only 4 have office space
   assigned to them by Digital at DYO; 2 secretaries, a specialist and
   our manager.  The rest of us drive from our homes to remote customer
   sites.  This is not considered business miles by either Digital nor
   the IRS.  I live 6 miles from the Digital office.  I moved there so I
   would be close to "work".  I live 28 miles from my customer site.
   
   My out of pocket under the new plan will go from $30/wk to over
   $60/wk just for driving to work and back.  If my manager decides to
   reassign me to a customer site, say,  in Springfield (that Navistar
   slide Don Z. was so proud of [BTW, they spelled the sales rep's name
   wrong]) I could be driving 45 miles one way to work.  That would be
   $99/wk just for driving to work.
   
   There is no way to tell how much my travel is going to cost month to
   month because Digital can reassign me.  With the downsizing there is
   going to be an even stronger push to "share" resources.  I have been
   assigned to Indianapolis in the past; a 90 mile one way drive.  Once
   again, not business miles.  Digital doesn't have to TFSO me, they can
   bankrupt me into resigning.
   
   Don't say that we can just put down "really far" remote site travel
   as business miles.  This is cheating.  Many notes have showed disdain
   at cheating.  And how far is really far?
   
   The real inequity is $.22/mi which is based on an average.  If
   I owned and operated my own car without compensation from Digital and
   I doubled my milage/day to and from work, then I would not realise a
   doubling in cost in operating expenses.  The bulk of a car's expense
   is fixed and not dependent on milage (loan, interest, insurance,
   etc.)   Gas, oil changes and milage triggered maintenance is.
   
   
   Gas @$1.20/gal, 20mpg:		$.06/mi
   Oil $23/3000mi:			$.008/mi
   Tune up $75/30000mi:			$.00003/mi
   Tires $400/50000mi:			$.008/mi
   
   These are the major ones.  Variable costs to and from work are really
   (based on about $.08/mi from the above):
   
   	Office			Current Site		Navistar
   	6 Mi			28 Mi			45 Mi
   	=======================================================
   	$4.80/wk		$22.00/wk		$36.00/wk
   
   What Digital wants me to pay is:
   
   	$13.80/wk		$61.60/wk		$99.00/wk
   
   "Ah," you say.  "This is incentive to get off the company car."
   
   See my previous note.
   
   

Re. several back

If your office only provides space for 5 of n (>5) employees, then your office
is probably elsewhere.  Check out whether you office is considered to be self
provided, in your house.  If you get agreement on this, your 150 mile customer
trips are BUSINESS  which from my fields days, is probably proper.

When I was in the field, I was only required to goto DEC site meetings on the
order of once a month (at least at first).  Therefore, given lack of space
allocated on DECsite, my "office" was a 3x6 table at home, with dialup terminal
and phone line, for which I charged $0 rent.

    I don't often enter notes in this conference but...
    
    I am a Senior Sales Support Consultant working for Digital for the past
    5 1/2 years.  Right now I have both a company car and a job.  I have
    been informed that in 2 weeks I probably will have neither.
    
    Anyone want my company car in trade for a job for a very hard working
    Senior Consultant in the greater Maynard area?  Send serious replies to
    WHYNOW::NEWMAN or DTN 274-6836.

    
    Would it perhaps make more sense to reduce the NUMBER of cars (and
    therefore the total expense) rather than than the entire PROGRAM which
    in many ways is out of date.  Most cars are allocated by position, i.e.
    if you're a NNaa then you're ELIGIBLE for the car plan perk whether you
    need one or not.  On the other hand, many people NEED to have a car to
    conduct company business regardless of their job code.
    
    It seems that many people who used to need a car now use it very
    infrequently for actual company business but you can't take it away
    from them.  Reducing the number of cars (with perhaps a car-pool arrangement
    for those occasional users) could possibly save more money with less
    disruption than the current plan.
    
    Isn't that the bottom line of what we're trying to do - reduce
    expenses?  Why get everyone upset (and perhaps lose a few) at the same
    time?  Or is THAT the plan? ;^)
    
    JN

    re: .118
    
    This won't work either.  I've forgotten the the details, but once again
    the IRS won't allow it.
    
    Bob

My concern at some of the righteous replies in here is the total assumption 
that cars are perks rather than tools.  I resent that and so do probably a few
others.

Re: cost calculations a few back.  You missed the #1 cost of a car - depreciation.
No, I will not use my car for DEC's benefit  unless DEC wishes to compensate
me.

Grandfather clause: I was the one who asked the original question.  Said individual
does not want plan A, decides for plan B and buys a reasonable piece of
transportation.  Plan B says any car 4 years or younger.  Fine, go buy a new car,
with my money, get a four year loan.  Slam, DEC changes the rules.  Does anybody
see anything slightly unethical about this?

    
    
    I was hired by Digital two and a half years ago. When I got the job
    offer, I was told "so much plus a company car". The "so much" was the
    same as a few other job offers. The car, amongst other things, helped 
    make the difference. 
    
    I feel terrible about people who are laid off. Who knows, I might be
    laid off soon myself. But does that mean that I should not care when it
    looks like I am going to suffer a major pay cut? My wages go to support 
    myself and my family. I care about anything that affects them. 
    
    
    Patricia.
    
    

Greetings,

When a field service friend of mine chortled that the plan was
changing I feared the worst but couldn't believe this mess. My
fondest hope is that someone gives Z. an idea of how much he is 
hurting those of us for whom the car is about the most valuable 
tool we have. I've listed a couple of beefs I've got concerning
this plan.

Beef #1:

I live 28 miles from the office. That means if I never use the company
car for any personel miles $61.60 a week. Of course its bloodsuckers
like me who abuse the current plan thats ruining DEC. Tragically until
a year ago the office was 11 miles from my house when the office 
was consolidated to a new site. Noone asked me when they moved the
office there but I guess thats my fault too. For the fellow who is
3.5 miles away this could very easily happen to you. 

Beef #2:

My cynical idea is to go under plan A and to have the car parked at
the office so if I never use the car for personel miles it should be
free! Is that okay? Now what do you think of that little plan. Radical
eh? I've got a clunker that I could drive to the office and from there
to site. I'm sure someone would prefer the company car at a residential
area rather than where we have the office. 

Beef #3: 

I'm in field service, (yah yah I know it has several new names) and quite
frankly reason we get a company car is because we wear cars out fairly
quickly. I can easily be given a call in West Virginia or DC. The nice
thing about the Plan B is that they will finally pay something like what
what it costs to own a car. But I have a `90 car with 91000 miles.  So
I buy a car and within 3 years the cars worn out and guess who's got to 
buy the replacement. Oddly the best fse's are the one's who don't mind
getting out in front of the customer or getting hands on with another 
fse. Guess how that person gets there. I know the answer is that the best
advise comes fromt the telephone, but in the real world nothing beats
a real person on site. 

Finally I agree with the comment that the answer was less people getting
company cars. A manager at a local office is in the home alone program
and has a company car. I couldn't believe how many people got company
cars when I was hired at DEC. 


I guess I'll go for a bike ride, at least thats still free, heaven 
help me if someone comes up with a company bike program

Fred M.

    
    	Planned attrition is part of any "*sizing". The rate of attrition
    may be accelerated, or reduced, at the option of management. Take the
    good and the bad, weigh them both, and make decisions.
    
    
    	fred deady
    	wbc::deady
    	dtn 425-3379
    
    	not spell checked 8*}
    

.120>    expenses?  Why get everyone upset (and perhaps lose a few) at the same
.120>    time?  Or is THAT the plan? ;^)
    
    We need to be realistic about this.  As previous notes have stated, my
    budget involves the Plan B payments, and was in fact the deciding
    factor in taking the job I have now.  With this new plan in place
    (which appears to be a knee-jerk reaction instead of something well-
    thought-out considering the ramifications), I believe the sentence
    above should realistically be changed to "and *definitely* lose a
    *lot*".  If we need to reduce our headcount, this move is going to
    cause attrition for both the talented and the untalented.  Does it
    really make sense to throw out the baby with the bathwater?
    
    Jon

Well, I can't find it, but it's here somewhere.  I have an offering letter
tells me about the car.  Nowhere does it say tool!  

Besides the fact.

I live five miles from the office, twice a day five days a week which
is 50 miles a week.  I've been at sites 30 and up to 85 miles one way
from my home...

 5 Miles 1 way 5 * 2 * 5 * 0.225 =  13.5 a week.  
30 Miles 1 way 30* 2 * 5 * 0.225 =  67.5 a week..
85 Miles 1 way 85* 2 * 5 * 0.225 = 191.5 a week..  Excuse Me!

I'll save 67.5 dolars a week by leaving the car at the office for a 30 mile
drive, 191.5 a week for the 85!.  What should I do! ;-)

Don't tell me this is fair..  Also why do we have to pay after tax dolars,
why can't the personal miles be added to our W2 instead.


Why I think Digital owes me a car! 

My current salary is x/hr  I make digital 6 * x/hr. 40 hours/week * 52
weeks thats 2080X, Digital's cut saying I'm 80% billable is 
.80 * 40 * 52 * 6 * x = 9984X  Gross Profit of 7904x.  Say Digital Pays me
at $1 per hour thats $7,904. $10/hr  = 79,040, 20/hr = 158,000 profit.


IS IT REALLY THAT MUCH TO ASK FOR!

- Mike

P.S.

If you say the actual cost of my job is much more, meaning less profit due to
overhead, then FIRE the overhead and increase my margin to pay for the car!
Or if you are really just trying to get rid of us, JUST DO IT!  I don't
like being strung along.

- Mike

    
    
    Lets see...
    
    Health Plan .........flush
    LTD		.........flush flush
    Car plan	.........flush flush flush (needed changing but ????)
    
    next
    Dental assistance......one time denture fee allowed
    Weekly paychecks.......go to monthly
    Computer assets........pay by "cpu time" charged
    
    	FLAME ON
    	WHEN WILL WE STOP CHEWING AT BENEFITS AND CUT SOME BAD MANAGEMENT
    AND UNPRODUCTIVE EMPLOYEES BEFORE BENEFITS ARE NO-MORE
    	fizzle out
    
    mark
    

RE: Last x replies

While I can understand your frustration, why are you complaining here??
Why not complain directly to Mr. Z. with candid comments like he is asking
for before the new stuff in implemented???  (Not having had to deal with 
the man, I am not sure that the last sentence needs a smiley face or not.)

In defense of the chance, let me add two comments.  First, Digital MUST
follow IRS' rules. There is no choice and the rules define business miles.
Second, ANYONE who did not read the writing on the wall the last time and
plan for a major change to happen, needs to get better glasses.  Look how
long ago this note string started!  And you do have until Dec-Jan to plan
for the change.

Lee G.

    Just a thought,
    
    It looks like there are a lot of people out there that use company cars
    for a lot of different purposes.  Sales people have to go to customer's
    sites and do "sales stuff."  Support people have to go to customers and
    do "support stuff."  A sales person isn't going to want a company van
    with heavy duty suspension to take a customer to lunch and a support
    person who may have a lot of tools might like the van.  Anyway, why
    don't you guys who are affected by the change in policy get your heads
    together and see what would be a better plan?  Maybe if you got a
    general consensus and that consensus was presented to some vice
    president in charge of cars (we probably have one) maybe it would be
    better for all concerned.
    
    re: .130
    
    I agree, get rid of the bad management.  At least a company car doesn't
    make million dollar bad decisions.
    
    Just my opinion
    
    Dave

    when I worked in my last company before I came to DEC, what they did
    at place where I worked at, is to have a dozen or so company cars parked
    outside the building available for any employee to use, such as for
    visits to customers, emergency stuff, and the like.

    one had to fill a short form, hand it to the nice security guards
    people and get the keys from them, and off they go.

    /Nasser
    I spelled checked

    

    
    
    	That's what I believe DEC used to do at certain sites.
    
    	For instance back in 1984 when I was working at Sales Training
    	they had a fleet of Ford Fairmonts for the trainees.
    
    	Digital got out of that business becuase it was cheaper to use rental
    	agencies at least that was my understanding...
    
    						Mike
    						----

	... about $500/month to support a company car.  That's insurance and 
leasing fee to GELCO/PHH/whomever.  And you would add on to that the gas over 
$30 a week, too, or any other expenses not covered under the lease terms.

	FWIW

    How about saving some serious money on maintenance and at the same
    time keep the fleet healthy?
    
    Can anyone out there tell us exactly what we pay GELCO each month
    for each car? I heard it is really outrageous... To make matters
    worse - I cringe everytime my company car needs a brake job. Why?
    Because of where GELCO tells me to have the work done. ( a natioally
    known chain which I'm told must remain nameless in this notes files)
    On no less than two separate occasions (in my 5+ years w/DEC) this
    firm has given back a car that is DANGEROUS to drive. They don't
    seem to know about the importance of doing a balanced brake job.
    I always test the brakes whenever I pick up a car that's just had
    the brakes worked on and I always have to give them a 2nd chance
    to do it right!
    
    The point I'm making is would it be more cost effective to have
    the dealers fix the cars? If the figure I heard for GELCO's services
    is accurate we could save serious money by having them sent to the
    dealers for serious problems [NOT FOR OIL CHANGES,BATTERIES, & TIRES].
    
    Obviously people would have to use common sense and good judgement
    whenever having their cars worked on. This would entail treating
    the company car like your own (OR BETTER) and when service is required
    act like the money it takes to fix it is your money. Think how frugal
    people would get then!
    
    Just a thought...   now, who knows how much we pay GELCO?
    
    Best Regards, Paul
    

    
>>transportation.  Plan B says any car 4 years or younger.  Fine, go buy a new car,
  
    Minor Nit, Plan B now allows cars up to 5 years old.
    
    JaKe
    

    This may be OLD information but... A while back in this discussion
    someone mentioned that they didn't recall seeing anywhere that a car
    was required for the job...  
    
    I recall from a discussion here in Mpls a year or so ago when an EIS
    person wanted to use a car deemed "not suitable" for the Plan B car
    plan.  As I recall they were told that ALL EIS personnel MUST have a
    vehicle that conforms to either Plan A or Plan B...  PERIOD.  You COULD
    NOT use a plan C car as part of EIS.  You could not NOT have a car. 
    You could NOT leave your car at home and take the bus. The car HAD to
    meet the guidelines - i.e. seat 4 adults, etc, couldn't be a pickup
    truck or 4 X 4...  
    
    There were several reasons given, among them the need to randomly rush
    to customer sites (can't wait for the bus TO or leave in the middle of
    something to catch the bus FROM the site), carry other employees or
    customers (had to fit more than 2 people AND be reasonably new, etc),
    project the image Digital wanted to present to the customer community,
    etc.   
    
    I can't believe that suddenly Digital no longer cares about those
    things that made it mandatory to have a Plan A or B car in the past. 
    If these things ARE still important I believe Don Z and/or whoever is
    making the decisions will come up with a reasonable alternative.  I
    can't believe they want a workforce going out to customers in 1973
    Dodge Darts, or old Yugos...  and I believe that at it won't JUST be
    EIS that loses the cars - at least SOME of the CS, Sales Support, and
    Sales force will also not be able to meet the 800 mile/month limit.
    
    The other thing that struck me was how will they manage the constantly
    changing assignments...  For example, if I"m in the office for 6 months
    on a project I won't meet the mileage...  so I lose my car plan.  Then
    I get assigned to a customer site for 6 months that is far enough away
    that I meet the mileage requirements - does Digital then put me on Plan
    B and start giving me a check?  What happens when the assignment ends? 
    They take me back OFF plan B?  Multply by thousands of people, month
    after month...  And who's going to keep track of whether the formerly
    plan B car that was now forced onto plan C is suitable to go back on
    plan B?   Sounds like another logistical nightmare requiring yet more
    administration...
    
    I still think they'll come up with something more sensible...

    
    
    re. 138 - yes, the mind boggles when thinking of the implementation. An
    even worse scenario: what if you are on Plan A and suddenly don't
    qualify, then qualify again, etc... Do you have to run out and buy a
    personal car, use it for 6 months, and then find out that you can get
    back on plan A?
    
    Also, what type of atmosphere will it create in a department when
    people compare the "have-nots" and the "haves". Will Sales Support
    people fight to support sales rep who have far-away customers so that
    they can keep the car? Won't there be rumors like "Oh, he got to keep
    the car cos' he's cheating on his miles? 
    
    Also, a colleague of mine pointed out to me that it would encourage
    people to use the car no matter what, and end up costing a lot of money
    to the company. For example, people short on miles might be reluctant
    to car pool to a customer. Everybody takes their own car. Result: 3
    parking charges instead of one. Here in LA parking can easily cost over
    $20 for a few hours. More driving, more smog, etc...
    
    I'll be curious to see how they work it all out.
    
    Patricia.
    
    
    

    
    Just park all the cars in a row, sign one out in the a.m. and sign it
    back in, in the p.m. It's a "tool"? Fine, you provide me a legal, clean
    and safe "tool", I'll use it, and give it back when I'm done. The
    obvious flaws are security (so get some...) and care of vehicles. I
    treat my DECWagon as my own car, wash and wax by hand (many times not even
    charging for it, just because I like a shiny car).
    
    I'll get to work on my own.
    
    If I'm dropped from both plans? Ever see the movie "Uncle Buck"? 
    
    Up here in snow country we call 'em "Winter Rats". I'll take a '73
    Catalina to site, and let the inquiring Customer know the score.
    
    Like a previous reply called it, I'll NOT stuff RA82 HDA's in my own
    car. (How'd ya get 7 in? Mine only holds 6.) Call me a taxi cause my
    little car only holds ME.
    
    Hard situation to be in, and it will cost us money, how many managers
    do you know who have a car, and only COMMUTE with it?
    
    Gee, should I have said "FLAME ON"?
    
    .mike.
    Field Service, on-site

    I feel a need to express a few thoughts:
    
    First, a company car is almost universally accepted as a benefit,
    adding approximately 4,000 and 6,000 to your annual salary, according
    to many employment experts.  Employment agencies, the IRS, and
    employees *do* consider it a benefit, no matter what name Digital
    management chooses for it.  If Digital gave me a Limo, with driver
    to take me to each customer site, with a full bar in back, they
    could call it a "tool" all they wanted, and I would still consider
    it a major "benny".  Of course, if they later decided it was a
    frivolous expense and should be elliminated, many would be upset.
    It's a major adjustment.
    
    Having changed jobs a couple of times since 1988, I have observed
    that Digital's current car plans are very out of touch with the
    outside world.  When I hired on, I examined Plan A and B.  Plan
    B was about 1/2 the compensation (both monthly rate and mileage
    reimbursement) of my previous employer, a small word processing
    company.
    
    Plan A, however was equally out of touch with my previous "company car"
    employer.  This time, it was to my benifit.  At the time I left that
    job in 1988, the personal mileage charges on the company car were
    already higher than the proposed .225/mile being proposed now.  Of
    course, it was still lower than what the IRS considers to be the value
    of personal use, so I also had a tax hit at the end of the year.  Also,
    in that company, the equivalent of a unit manager (some acronym I no
    longer remember) didn't have a company car, so we got absolutely no
    sympathy or support for company car issues. Every Field Service Manager
    would probably vote to elliminate all company cars if given the chance. 
    
    The proposed change will result an almost a $1000.00 additional
    expense to me, not including the tax hit.  The IRS is playing *major
    hardball* on company cars, and it is affecting *all* companies who
    provide them, to the point where many are discussing discontinuing
    them.
    
    I will continue to use the Plan A, because I live in California
    where, despite the passage of our "prop. 103" which was supposed
    to limit insurance increases, I face paying more than double the
    rate (We're talking probably $2500/yr) for insurance on my personal
    car.  (Personal use, by the way, I haven't even priced business
    use, or the extra coverage Digital requires!)  This assumes that
    I can *get* insurance.  My last policy was cancelled with no reason
    given, and I decided the personal car should stay in the garage
    for a while.  It is generally believed that insurance companies
    are *retaliating* against California voters for passing prop. 103.
    
    Digital is facing the same astronomical insurance crisis we are
    facing.
    
    The only thing I must disagree with on the proposed plan A change
    is the business mileage requirement.  In Customer Services, we are
    *always* required to carry parts, and drive to/from customer sites.
    Having an on/off, some have, some have not, plan within a job function
    will generate more mis-contentment among employees than it's worth.
    
    I'm willing to bite the bullet and take my company car increase,
    but I hope Digital will bite the bullet as well, and at least decide
    that certain job functions (such as field service) must *always*
    have a company car.

    During the last major recession, I was also in Customer Service with
    another major company.  Those of us who had been there a while suddenly
    saw a slow, then a much more steep erosion of company benefits.
    Company car, medical coverage, etc.  All were losing their value.  They
    had major layoffs, but never in field service, because people were
    quitting at a fast enough pace. We were overworked and underpaid.
    Raises disappeared for a year, then reappeared in the 1 to 2% range per
    year.  Strangely, when the economy got better, the benefits and raises
    didn't return to their pre-recession levels. 
    
    The thing that upsets most of us, especially now, is not necessarily
    a Digital thing.  It's an economy thing, and it seems that only
    us "little" people are paying the price for all the tough luck this
    country has faced the past few years.  We don't see any CEO or
    politician making *any* personal sacrifices to make life easier
    for those of us on the bottom.  That's the law of the jungle.  The
    strong (financially) survive, the rest of us suffer.
    
    (Extremely FLAME-ON comments deleted after re-consideration...)

    Management needs to realise that we are *all* going through tough
    times now.  Personal problems affect individuals much more than
    corporate problems.  We know times are tough.  Let's just try not
    to cut too much!  I would like to see Digital remain the kind of
    company I joined because they cared for the employees.

    As for me, I know that the plan A was great while it lasted.  However,
    for me, it's still better than the alternatives.

    Dan

    
     Yes times are tough. What WE need to do is present alternatives to our
    management. All the way up to Don Zereski if necessary. Face it, the
    CAR PLANS are just not a viable business solution tool for everyone.
    I personally view it as a personal benefit of my job. Personal because
    the IRS gets me for over 2 grand a year. We need to have a balanced 
    approach to this. There is still time enough for a well laid plan to
    come into being, IF we present management with our options and
    feelings.
    
    -Mike Zarudzki
     Digital Services (former EIS) on site
    
    I spell checked.

    An INCOME REDUCTION is an INCOME REDUCTION, no matter what you call it!

    What sacrifice will those without company cars be making in order to
    balance the burden of cost reductions????????

    --- Paul

    
    RE: .140
    
    Stand 'em on end! It works in my Taurus anyway. We had a sort of
    contest once, and one guy actually got 15 on his Celebrity! It
    looked like the Keystone Kops driving up to the loading dock.
    
    

Perhaps one of the unforseen consequences that Bob Palmer mentioned in the DVN
would be that now everyone will be DRIVING to the greater New England area
for events such as training, DECworld, Network U, etc.....

Airlines? I don't need no stinkin' airlines!

Keith R>

Please see note 2051 if you have a better alternative for the car plan.

Bob

Driving an old beater Pinto to the office to pick up the DEC car sounds like
the way to go...

Lee

    If I stay on Plan A, and use the car ONLY for business use I pay
    nothing.... right??   Who pays for the gas?

	Does anyone know if this 500/800 milage limit is an IRS requirement
or something the DEC brain trust thought up?

	As it stands without the milage limitation, this is an allright
plan in that it will move people from Plan A which costs DEC about
$500+ dollars a month per car to a less expensive plan that also
requires less administration.

	As several previous replies stated, this milage limitation will
cause a lot of problems with certain segments of the field organization
and could eventually end up costing DEC as much as they are already paying.

	DEC needs to reduce costs. And I would rather see cars go than people.
But we also have a job to do, and if this is going to be yet another
roadblock to getting the job done, then I think management should seriously
rethink this issue.

-John-

As one of those bad attitude people in Digital, gratefully spent most of
the week out of town on one of those corporate-paid vacations in
Marlboro. After partying so much and working on that tan I got home from
the airport at 8:00pm.  I knew I had a little problem though so I sat
down at the computer.  When I got off the computer at 11:00 pm I felt I
had done just enough to make it look like I was working. I had not
covered my track enough so I came into the office today [Saturday] to
run the the thing through DOCUMENT and to print it out.  I've discovered
that if I work 10 hours on a weekend the management does not catch on
about the junkets they pay for.  While the is running I decided to take
a peek in Notes where I cam across this. 
    
RE:               <<< Note 1664.101 by SAHQ::DERR "Tom Derr @ALF" >>>
>    1.  "The Car Plan is part of my compensation"
>    
>    If you were told that by your manager, shame on him/her.  If you
>    believed it, call me.  I've got some beachfront property that you'd be
>    interested in.
>    
>    In any case, this attitude is the height of selfishness.  That an
>    individual is concerned about their car when good, dedicated employees
>    are losing their jobs is beyond my comprehension. 
    
Please post your manager's name and Email address here so some of the
selfish people can let him/her know that you're volunteering to take
a $4,000 pay cut in order to help the company out.

John

    The remark from the DVN and in this note that "the car is not
    compensation" is part of the old doubletalk and euphemism that I
    thought we were moving away from.

    When personal income is affected, it's compensation.

    If a "business tool" like a file cabinet, fax machine or a copier was
    removed from the office, compensation isn't affected.

    And I don't know of anyone who was given as an incentive to be hired
    by Digital, a file cabinet, fax machine, or copier.

    This policy may be the right thing to do, but denying that it has an
    impact on employee income is a evasion.

    My personal history with DEC:
    
    2.5 years ago I accept a job with Digital over similar offers from
    other companies because Digital has and OFFERS AS A BENEFIT ("I can't
    give you any more money, but Digital does have a car plan which is
    worth at least $3000 a year to you")  a car plan.  I give up my
    perfectly good 3 year old Accord because I would not be able to use it
    after 1 more year.
    
    After a few short visits, customer X who Digital has been able to do 0
    consulting business with cuts a 1 year PO which specifically asks for
    me by name.  Then customer renews second year.  Situation leads to
    other consulting business as well as hardware/software sales($150,000). 
    This is %100.00+/hour revenue * 2000 hours/year * 2 years.
    
    My reward:
    
    	Tripling of my health care costs.  (or change to HMO for less
    coverage)
    	Doubling of my Disablity Insurance.  (or again less coverage)
    	Pay $20.00+/week to drive a car I do not even like, FOR Digital!
    	Constant threat of being laid off!
    
    
    My Question:
    
    	Why should I not go to work for the customer directly at
    $75.00/hour and let Digital keep their Taurus?  
    
    
    My Answer: (so far)
    
    
    Digital is a great source of information for me and our customers. 
    However if this information becomes too expensive for me to personally,
    I will be history at DEC. 

    re: .153
    
    I agree!  I've been with Digital for 22 months and have had almost the
    exact same experiences.  I'm fondly looking back at the "good 'ol
    days."
    
    --- Gavin

Greetings friends,

Several thoughts have been provoked from this note.

Provoked thought #1:

I thought all the years I've been harping on my fellow FSE-types 
to use NOTES had gone to waste. I've even made fun of them and 
they never suspected! Well talk about the car plan and ALL that
talent has suddenly come suprisingly to life! These people are
something like experts. I guess we just had come up with the
correct subject.

Provoked thought #2:

I've heard for years at DEC and before at a previous job that us
F/S types days are numbered. At one point in 1980ish I sat in a meeting
and was told that soon the customer would merely give a error code number
and the correct part would be fedexd to them and they would fix their 
own problems. In the late 80's when 1170's and 780's were being dropped
off contract like crazy. (My favorite story was a customer couldn't get 
anyone to buy their 70 so they pushed it off the loading dock into 
a dumpster.) Our District manager said we were getting lots of other
stuff to make up the different and so it has been, we've been slowly 
shrinking in size and increased in revenue. Well of course our days are
still numbered and so is theuge amount of money we make! I We in our
office heard a unoffical rumor that of the 40 or so engineers there will
be 17 cut. When I got wind of this rumor it provoked sub-thoughts:

	Subthought a: If roughly half of the people who actually do the
work are going to be history who the H*** is going to service the customers
(100%) who've bought contracts? 

	Subthought b: If we are going to be a thing of the past (because 
hardware doesn't break or because its soooooo simple to fix that any danged
fool can do it) shouldn't we wait until service revenue or profits from
it start to slow? They not only appear to be throwing the baby out with
the bathwater but within reason killing a goose that is laying something
like golden eggs. Shouldn't we wait until the eggs/revenue stops before
killing it?

	Subthought c: The implication is that there are going to be a 
significant amount of company cars to be had in the not too distant future.
We should be able to get a pretty good deals on old company cars.

Provoked thought #3:

Is this changing of the car plan an attempt to prove to us in the field
that we aren't really wanted/needed anymore? The last company I was at
did something like that to get us to leave. They announced there would
not only be no pay raises for 2 years and all the bene's were going to 
be seriously changed. It was odd that when I left (3 months later) all
that were quitting were really the best techs they had.(also for the pay
raise...I was told I'd get one if I stayed.) Anywho is this a attempt
at charming us into leaving the company? Something like a cold shoulder?

Provoked thought #4:

Concerning company cars...I never had one before because I found them too
much of a hassle to keep up with the company car beauracy. Most companys
have some sort of plan to keep employees on the road and making money
for them. If we have a organization it would seem a fairly easy exercise
to copy someone elses. IBM FSE's for example drive their own cars and 
handle it okay. The neverending soap opera of "whats going to change with
with the car plan and how is it going to effect me," is really something
I can do without. For us FSE's our only worth is out of the office so some
kind of car plan is ineviable and one that hurts us the least is preferable.


Provoking thought #5:

Why the heck is the $350 a month going to be taxable. Is this some IRS
thing? It truly is a expense? Tragically I have no answer for this.


And Finally:

All this being said I've pretty much resigned myself to going on the Plan 
B. Which all things being equal I could probably make work. (Good grief at
22.5 cents per mile a good bike trip somewhere would take my whole pay!)
I'd change for a couple reasons, first the money $350 per mo. plus the
$120 or $150 I'm not paying anymore would almost pay for the new car,
second if DEC really is done with FSE's (for whatever goofy reason) then
by the time the package reaches my level of incompetance hopefully I'd 
have some amount of of the car will be payed for so I'll have something
to use at my new job.

Fred M.

    I'd like to hear Mr. Palmer's view on the car plan, in some detail.
    I would believe him.
    
    Dan

    What does Mr. Palmer drive? Corporate Limo? Beater? Kumpn'y Kar?
    
    Just Curious...
    .mike.

    >What does Mr. Palmer drive? Corporate Limo? Beater? Kumpn'y Kar?
    
    Porsche Targa according to the trade rags. Course, I drive my '67
    GTO with all the carbs and stuff from time to time but I understand
    that maybe a Porsche may be the only acceptable substitute these days.
    
    Nice car!

Maybe somebody from the field ought to suggest that all engineers who are 
given the right to use workstations as tools ought to be charged for them 
unless they can document 40 hours per week actually using them?  After all, 
they are tools and have been treated like a benefit.  Why, heck, if you only 
code 25 hours a week, you can supply your own company approved workstation, 
and DEC will reimburse you $7.00 an hour for use of the machine.  Of course 
you can only use machines that are no more than 5 years old, and no PCs or 
Macs as they do not have the right image.

All noting will be charged at $7.00 an hour, plus you must pay for the 
electricity you used.

I know, we can charge for using the stairs next, and perhaps for the elevator 
for those that are not physically challenged.

I am sure we can make DEC a profitable venture, all we have to do is make 
working hard and costly!

Matt

8^)

    Look in VTX US_FLEET, the numbers are posted.  By numbers, I mean the new
    plan B reimbursements by facility code.  Interesting fact I found is
    that the 'base' rate is not the basement reimbursement.  For example,
    according the posted chart dated August 17, 1992, in my area the
    following rates apply:
    
     CHO - Cherry Hill, NJ   - $377  (Jersey side of Philly - 20miles)
     PHH - Blue Bell, PA     - $351  (Northwest side of Philly - 20miles)
     DWO - Delaware office   - $332
     ANO - Allentown, PA     - $325  (30 miles north of Blue Bell)
     SCP - State College, PA - $319  (Penn State Univ location)
    
     $350 may be the base rate, but depending on location, it could less
     than $350 or higher, your 'mileage' may vary!
    
     BTW, the entire policy is not posted as of yet.
    
     john :--)

    Z stated that $350.00 was the AVERAGE not the base....

The following is from VTX:
    
    
 Plan B Reimbursement Rates                         Effective: 17-Aug-1992
 Policy No. 2.0                 
                                                              Page  1 of 3
 FY93 BUSINESS TRANSPORTATION PLAN BRIEFING PACKAGES WILL BE DISTRIBUTED
 THROUGH YOUR MANAGEMENT CHAIN.  EACH MANAGER WILL PROVIDE THEIR EMPLOYEES 
 WITH INFORMATION DETAILING ENHANCEMENTS, CHANGES AND A QUESTION AND 
 ANSWER SECTION.
 
 THE CURRENT POLICIES AND PROCEDURES WILL BE REVISED.
 
 *********************************************************************
 
 The following are the FY93 reimbursement rates by site location ($).
 
 SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT
 ====   ===        ====   ===        ====   ===        ====   ===
 
 ABO    325        ABT    332        ACI    335        ACO    361
 AET    364        AGE    328        AKO    361        ALF    354
 ALO    328        ANC    338        ANO    325        ANR    335
 AOO    319        APM    367        APO    364        AQO    325
 ARO    335        ASO    328        ATL    354        ATO    354
 AUO    345        AUU    345        AWO    413        BBT    348
 BCS    332        BDO    319        BES    390        BFO    328
 BGR    332        BHO    322        BJO    335        BLK    371
 BMF    377        BMO    319        BNO    390        BOO    429
 BPO    367        BQO    309        BTO    302        BUO    364
 BWA    351        BXB    364        BXC    364        BXO    406
 BYO    361        CBM    387        CBO    335        CEO    325
 CFO    361        CHA    338        CHM    364        CHO    377
 CHT    319        CIO    309        CKO    351        CLO    315
 CLT    341        CMO    319        CNO    335        COL    319
 COP    354        CPO    384        CRL    387        CSO    319
 CTC    364        CTS    364        CWA    348        CWO    384
 CXA    354        CXM    354        CXN    354        CXO    354
 CYO    315        DAS    364        DCA    367        DCO    367
 DDD    338        DEO    322        DER    367        DFE    371
 DFO    315        DLB    367        DLG    361        DLO    361  
 DMO    351        DOO    325        DPD    361        DSG    361        
 DVO    351        DWO    332        DWS    354        DYO    315        
 ECO    367        EEO    322        EFO    390        EGO    315        
 EJO    387        EKO    367        EOO    351        EOW    358        
 EPA    328        EPO    358        ERC    371        EWO    364        
 FAC    371        FHA    367        FHO    367        FLA    325        
 FLO    397        FLT    387        FMO    312        FOO    351        
 FOR    367        FPT    315        FRS    351        FTO    351        
 FVO    426        FWO    335        FXO    364        FYT    315        
 FZO    325        GAN    315        GBO    309        GFO    345         
 GGO    345        GJO    354        GNO    325        GPO    367        
 GRC    351        GSF    338        GSO    325        GTO    371        
 GVH    341        HEO    351        HLO    364        HMO    351
 HNO    364        HRO    361        HSO    364        HST    364
 HTB    364        HTF    371        HTO    332        HVO    312
 HWL    364        HWO    397        IFO    335        INI    341
                       FOR DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY
 
 Bulletin                                              

 Plan B Reimbursement Rates                            Effective: 17-Aug-1992
 Policy No. 2.0                
                                                              Page  2 of 3
 SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT
 ====   ===        ====   ===        ====   ===        ====   ===
 INS    341        IOO    312        ITO    325        IVO    384
 IZF    328        JMO    345        JXO    322        K74    315
 K75    315        KCO    351        KEO    442        KFO    351
 KHO    348        KKM    335        KKO    341        KMO    302
 KNX    361        KXO    322        KYO    377        KZO    341
 LAC    367        LAO    481        LAS    494        LBO    325
 LCT    361        LFF    325        LFS    302        LIO    380
 LJO    358        LKG    358        LLO    390        LMO    367
 LPO    312        LQO    390        LRO    325        LSO    315
 LTN    358        LUO    328        LVM    367        LVO    335
 LXO    439        LXT    436        LYF    377        MAO    335
 MAV    413        MBO    312        MDS    364        MEL    367
 MET    367        MJO    315        MKO    338        MLO    364
 MMO    322        MOO    367        MPO    351        MRC    335
 MRO    367        MSO    364        MTO    312        MWO    312
 MZO    309        NDL    351        NEO    351        NIO    345        
 NJO    371        NKS    367        NOO    377        NQO    338        
 NRO    371        NUO    338        NVO    319        NYE    351
 NYO    413        OAO    397        OAW    371        OFO    367
 OGO    361        OHF    367        OJO    374        OKO    338        
 OMO    345        OPA    325        ORO    325        PAG    371        
 PCC    351        PCO    361        PDM    367        PDO    325        
 PEO    322        PHC    367        PHH    351        PHO    351        
 PKO    364        PLO    335        PNO    380        POG    367        
 PSL    319        PSO    325        PTO    338        PVO    377        
 RCH    374        RCO    315        RDO    338        REO    351        
 RIV    361        RMS    367        ROB    354        ROO    332
 ROV    325        RRO    351        RTH    341        RTP    315
 RUO    367        RVO    351        SAD    390        SAR    325
 SBO    332        SCA    361        SCO    377        SCP    319
 SDO    364        SEO    351        SFM    325        SFO    319
 SHR    364        SIO    335        SKO    351        SLO    341
 SPO    384        SRO    319        SSO    371        STO    367
 SUN    371        SWO    358        SXO    354        SYO    325
 SZO    410        TAY    358        TFA    367        TFO    367
 TJR    367        TLH    319        TLO    332        TMO    341
 TNK    309        TRZ    335        TSO    332        TTB    338
 TUK    358        TUO    351        TUS    384        TWN    319
 TWO    371        TYL    335        UCB    371        UCD    371
 UCF    371        UCH    371        UCO    371        UCP    371
 UCS    371        UCT    371        UKO    413        UMP    345
 UNX    384        UPO    367        VBV    332        VEO    364
 VFO    335        VMO    315        VOO    348        VPO    345
 VRO    361        VWV    335        VYO    393        WAO    371
 WBP    325        WDC    367        WDF    367        WES    328
 WFO    364        WFR    364        WHB    345        WHO    371
 WIO    335        WJO    361        WKO    312        WLM    315
 WMO    358        WNP    354        WNT    341        WOO    367
 WPA    319        WRA    371        WRJ    302        WRL    371
                       FOR DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY
 
 Bulletin                                            
 Plan B Reimbursement Rates                           Effective: 17-Aug-1992
 Policy No. 2.0                                       
                                                              Page  3 of 3
 SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT        SITE   AMT
 ====   ===        ====   ===        ====   ===        ====   ===
 WRO    371        WUS    309        WVT    302        WYB    319
 YAK    345        YTN    335        ZBO    354        ZKO    338
 ZSO    351        ZVO    371                     
 









                       FOR DIGITAL INTERNAL USE ONLY
 

    I'll go find that lime green 1968 Chevy Pickup Truck.  You've probably
    seen it out there on the road - the one that was hand painted with a
    brush.
    
    It'll have 4 bald tires and a couple spares thrown in back in the bed. 
    It might have hubcaps, but they won't match.  And they will want to
    roll off every sharp corner.
    
    It's gotta have a 3 speed manual transmission on the steering column.
    
    I figure I can probably pick one up for $200 or so.  And DEC can pay me
    22 cents per business mile to drive it.  The payback shouldn't take too
    long.
    
    I'll make a bunch of improvements; I'll clean all the scrunge out of the
    back bed and put some plywood down to cover up the rust holes.  I'll
    also put some plywood down on the floorboards so the road crud doesn't
    fly up thru the rust holes and injure customers I drive around.  I
    might put some blankets down on the seats so we can ride around in
    suits and nice clothes.
    
    I work for Sales Support and have space at a real office.  But, for you
    guys in EIS with no office, you can probably pick up a camper shell and
    put that in the back.  Use your business vehicle for your office!  Have
    customer meetings in there.  Maybe put in a workstation, modem, and
    cellular phone.  Or, you guys from Cust Service could haul a *bunch* of
    RA8x HDAs in there.
    
    There are *always* choices!
    
    - Greg Scott

    re: .163
    
    But hey! Let's check that upside! Customers GOTTA believe that Digital's
    got the lowest prices goin' when they see what our representatives are
    driving, right? They won't constantly be whining for allowances and
    discounts after a ride in that '68 Chevy or a dinged-up '72 Datsun B210
    that belches blue smoke. Heck, if they think we're proprietary, locked-in,
    closed - why, we'll just take 'em for a ride in Greg's "passenger
    compartment!" The most open in the industry, by golly!
    
    You know, while we're at it, we could save a lot of advertising dollars
    by dropping those expensive Sunday-afternoon-sports-event slots! Let's
    run our ads between Midnight and 6:00 a.m.! BIG savings there! 
    
    Oh, and a big :-)

    Been looking for the right excuse to bring my '59 plymouth here to MN.
    It's parked out back of my folks place in SD. Real low rider. Room for
    6. V8 3sp on the column. Not much of a looker but runs well and has
    plenty of power. Even has cloth seats. I'll bet most cusomters would
    love riding in it - even without a back window and a few mice
    inhabitating parts of the seats.

    If those folks that go directly to the customer site from home, can't
    use that mileage to qualify for plan 'A' or plan 'B', why does everyone
    seem to think that those miles will qualify for plan 'C' (the 22.5
    cents per mile).  Business miles are business miles, and personal
    miles are personal.  If the miles are considered personal when applied
    to plan A/B, they must (?) be considered personal for plan C too,
    right?
    
    I am afraid that this 'money saving' car plan will drive (no pun
    intended) alot of folks right out of Digital.  I hate to keep bashing
    my favorite corporate policy, but maybe we should call this one the 
    'Open Garage-Door Policy.
    
    The worst part is, Digital will hurt those from the services
    organization the most, and isn't it 'services' that is where our profits
    and the future are.
    
    Mark

    re: .162 (contents)
    
    How did they come up with these figures?  As an example, ABO
    (Albuquerque) is listed at $325.  LSO (Los Alamos) gets a whopping $315
    per month!
    
    Just some simple facts:
    
    Los Alamos is 116% of the national average for cost-of-living,
    Albuquerque is 97% (1990/91 Chamber of Commerce records).
    
    LSO has minimal repair (car) facilities, with the closest national
    chains (for lube-oil, tune-up's, etc.) being 45 miles away.
    
    We're at a higher altitude and have more wear and tear due to road
    salting, etc.
    
    I haven't checked into insurance rates, but if they follow housing,
    groceries, etc., then they will be lower then ABO.
    
    No slams against Albuquerque, but this really stinks!  Same pay scales,
    higer cost of living, and we get $10/month less.  What we're these
    rates based on?
    
    --- Gavin
    

    The IRS says commuting miles aren't business miles.  OK, what if
    *every* morning I drive to the office to pick up my mail (7:30ish)
    *then* drive to my customer site (~10 miles).  Come back to the office
    at noon (gotta check those print jobs), then drive back out to my
    customer site.  Of course I have to return to the office late in the
    afternoon to drop any outgoing mail in the box and check my e-mail).
    
    Let's see:
    
    Office to cust. site (morning):          10
    cust. site to office (lunch):            10
    office back to site (afternoon):         10
    cust. site to office (evening):          10
                                             --
    Miles per work day (business):           40
    day per month (work):                  x 22
                                           ----
    Mile per work month (business)          880
    Business mile allowance:             x .225
                                         ------
    Monthly cost from DEC to ME:          $ 198
    
    Hmmmm, this may work out a little better afterall.  I hope my clients
    are short and small.  Fitting into a two person Hyundai (nope-I'm not
    taking out my climbing gear or camping gear to make room for 4) can be
    kind of a bear.
    
    --- Gavin :)

    Now while I appreciate the humor of the past few notes as much as the
    next entity, I'm not sure that contributing to this notes string is the
    most effective way of expressing our collective and individual
    displeasure at the proposed changes in the car plan.  Isn't there a
    high-level manager or two who might regard a few hundred mail
    messages--well worded, cogently argued, and spell checked (by a
    literate coworker, preferably)--as sufficient "new data" to revisit the
    offending decision?

    I'm currently composing a letter to Mr. Zereski, being unaware of a
    more appropriate addressee; I am trying therein not to shoot the
    messenger, but to argue that this is (from the Services side, at least)
    a decision with significant "unintended consequences".  I am (you may
    note) assuming that it is *not* an intended consequence to turn our
    current Services Cavalry into foot-sloggers, and that it is not
    intended that vast numbers of field people will leave the company
    without packages.  That this and other ill effects *may* happen is my
    thesis; I regrettably have no superior solution to propose, since I
    don't know what alternatives are possible.

    Again, who should be the addressees of such a letter, and will any of
    you join me?

I looked at the Plan B allowances from VTX. We have (had?) two 
facilities here in Phoenix, the one I work at is officially in Tempe
(24 miles from my house) and the other is officially in Phoenix (4
miles from my house). There is a difference in $13/month between those
two sites ($380/mo vs $367/mo)..... and we just sold the site closest
to my house to Honeywell. So not only do I get less per month on plan
B (assuming I'll even qualify), but I have to drive over 100 extra
personal miles per week because of where Digital decided to
consolidate facilities. 

Secondly, just to give an example of what this is doing, we have a 
customer meeting later this week (at the customer site). We're taking 
FOUR cars 'cause no-one wants to miss out on that all important new 
metric - "business miles driven". Don't people at the top think thru 
these types of decisions and the reaction they generate at the "grunt" 
level ??

help me.....

re .-1

You guys crack me up.

Here in Mass, we have people driving all kinds of absurd miles over absolutly
insane roads just to get to jobs that are rapidly dissapearing and you're
griping about not getting paid to drive to work? I don't know the exact
numbers but they've closed dozens of sites here in the last few years and
moved still more dozens of groups from one facility to another without much
of any mention of who has to drive what.

'Ya got a need to haul parts and stuff around, fine, DEC should provide a
truck. 'Ya gotta visit a bazillion different places, fine, DEC should pay
mailage but get off the providing transportation just anywhere you wanna
go bit, ok?

re .-1

>'Ya got a need to haul parts and stuff around, fine, DEC should provide a
>truck. 'Ya gotta visit a bazillion different places, fine, DEC should pay
>mailage but get off the providing transportation just anywhere you wanna
>go bit, ok?

If you're referring to .170, tell me where I said anything about 
Digital providing transportation to "anywhere I wanna go" ???

All I said was:

1) They are inconsistent with the determination of the Plan B 
   allowance - hell, they don't even know what plants we still own.

2) Since people don't want to lose a "benefit" such as the car plan, 
   they will change behaviors to make sure they don't... one example
   is taking seperate cars on customer visits instead of car-pooling.

I don't expect Digital to pay for my to drive anywhere I want anytime 
I want. I currently pay over $1500 per year to Digital to cover the 
personal use of the company cars, plus the additional tax burdon to
the IRS for that percentage that isn't covered by the $1500/year (an
extra $500-600/year in Fed Tax). What this new car plan is trying to
do is raise that amount to a level most of us are not prepared (with
such short notice) to afford - possibly over $5000/year. 

I fully appreciate the position Digital is in, I want to help pull us 
out, I want to be a leader again. But I don't think you can save the 
company by balancing the financial woes on the backs of the employees.

I am not a Sales Rep, but Digital needs to attract and keep good Sales 
Reps to help make the revenue/profit in this very competitive market. 
Most of the competition has car plans that are somewhere between what 
we had and what we are moving to. If all we do is meet what the 
competition does with benifits, at least we're on equal footing when 
trying to maintain a qualified Sales force to help us out of this 
mess. Sales is only a part of the answer, of course. We need good 
products, strong and smart management, great support, etc., etc. But 
Sales is still the place where the money comes in, and good Sales Reps 
know they can go to the competition and get a company provided LEXUS 
with no mileage requirments, big bonuses, stock options, etc. 

Does the Sales Rep HAVE to have a car to close sales ?? Probably not.
Do we need to offer a company car plan to attract sales reps capable
of closing sales? Probably. Will we start to lose the people who have 
the talent and drive (no pun intended) to help turn Digital around if 
we start chopping at people's personal finances and lives, you bet. At 
that point, you are in a death spiral... 

    re: -2
    	
    	Would you put 40,000+ miles per year on -your- car ? 
 	Plan A is too expensive, Plan B is too cheap.  What
    	car can I buy every 2 1/2 years (assuming I can get
    	100,000 per car) on $250/month (the rest for insurance).
    	The 8 cents per mile covers gas only.
 
    
        Brad.
    

I have been following this car plan proposal with great interest since I 
am in the field and will be faced with doubling or tripling of my car expenses.

I thought that plan B would probably be the less costly of the 2 plans until
I found out that the $338 I would be elligable for in plan B is TAXABLE 
INCOME which means I would only see about $240 after taxes.  Plus I was told
that new IRS reg's on write offs for business cars make it almost impossible
to write of any excess not picked up by DEC.

So how is $240 going to cover a $400/mo.+ lease, $70/Mo. insurance, $50/mo+ 
maintenance, registration, cleaning, etc? Looks like I'm going to be out
several hundred dollars per month.  OUCH!

Also most car leases impose severe penalties for excessive mileage (>12K/yr)
so I will get hit with a big bill when the lease expires.  I really hope
DEC looks at this carefully before making a decision.

gary

    As I recall, IRS will allow all expenses, within limits, to be written
    off against reimbursements received. The limits are about $14K total
    depreciated value over three years, and only those expense which exceed
    a percent (2% I think) of your income. This last limitation was a
    significant tax change implemented during the last two "no tax
    increase" administrations. This limit works like the medical 2%
    limitation. Bob Anderson.

re -.1 

I was told that the limit is now 4% which makes it difficult to recoup
any costs.

    I work for Digital Services out of New York City and we receive a cash
    payment once a month instead of a company car.  The company calls this
    the "Manhattan Allowance" or "the Walk."  We receive this as a seperate
    check from our weekly pay check and it varies in amount from approx.
    $315 to approx. $345 per month (depending on the number of days in that
    month I guess).  
    
    My comment is that if the company did not consider the company car to
    be a benefit/PERK then why would they provide those employees who
    work in NY City, and therefore have no work related reason for having a 
    car, with monetary compensation?  Let me further point out that in
    addition to the monthly "WALK" check we are still allowed to expense all
    taxi cab rides to and from customer sites... sounds an awful lot like
    an additional PERK to me! 
    
    Along the same line, has anyone heard whether they will be making any
    changes to the "Manhattan Allowance" in conjunction with changes being
    made to the company car plan?

 >   Along the same line, has anyone heard whether they will be making any
 >   changes to the "Manhattan Allowance" in conjunction with changes being
 >   made to the company car plan?


They will now!   8^)

    
    Another reason that Digital *must* consider the car as compensation is
    that Digital adds to my paycheck the amount of `compensation' we receive
    based on the number of personal miles driven minus the $30/week we kick
    in.  Management can put on a straight face and call it anything they
    want, but as soon as they started placing something onto my W2 stating
    that it was worth $x,xxx, they forfeited the `right' to call it
    anything but compensation.  I have a W2 that proves it to be
    compensation.  How much more legal than that can we get?
    
    tgc

My original offer letter (1976) stated my TOTAL COMPENSATION as salary
plus the Manhattan Allowance.  In fact, on a salary basis alone I took a
pay cut to come to Digital...they calculated what they should offer me
based on the Manhattan Allowance as part of the offer.

Hal

    In 1976, when I transferred from inside (IPG in the Mill) to the field
    (SWS in Atlanta), I was "given" a $2500/year pay DECREASE that was
    explained as being to offset the company car that came with the new
    job.
    
    	-Barry-
    

re: .181
>    In 1976, when I transferred from inside (IPG in the Mill) to the field
>    (SWS in Atlanta), I was "given" a $2500/year pay DECREASE that was
>    explained as being to offset the company car that came with the new
>    job.
    
I was basically given the same "deal" when I hired into DEC in Houston 
in '81. My Salary at DEC was about $4k/year less that I was making at 
my old job, but I was told the car compensated for that....    

    
    re: .-2 and compensation
    
    the B car plan is not a benefit.  no matter what the digital party
    line is telling you,  it is compensation by  definition,  in  that
    it shows up on your W-2 form and you pay tax on that.
    
    i haven't been on the A car plan since '87 so i don't know how that
    works out.  i don't remember having to do any extra work on my tax-
    es as function of being on plan A so in that sense it is a  benefit
    and not compensaton which means the $2500/year decrease in compensa-
    tion is not justified.
    
    lastly,  i would be surprised if you got a $2500/year increase when
    they take the car back no matter how well documented  the  original
    pay decrease was.   of course if you got a 4% raise  each  year  on
    average over the course of 16 years the pay increase due  would  be
    about $4682 - your mileage may vary.
    
    _sjz.
    

re: .183

>    i haven't been on the A car plan since '87 so i don't know how that
>    works out.  i don't remember having to do any extra work on my tax-
>    es as function of being on plan A so in that sense it is a  benefit
>    and not compensaton which means the $2500/year decrease in compensa-
>    tion is not justified.
    
Starting sometime in '89 or '90, the IRS imposed guidelines for how 
much the company car is worth to the employee based on 
business/personnal milage records. I get a "frigne benefit" statement 
several times a year with pages of numbers on it that show my 
business/personal ratio, and tell me whether I've "paid for" the 
personal use of the car with the $30/week, or if I still "owe". 
At the end of the year, I get a year summary.

If you did 100% business miles with the car, your salary as reported
on the W2 would actually DECREASE since the $30/week more than covered
your personal benefit. If you do something less than 80% business,
then the salary reported on your W2 is increased, and you pay taxes on
that "benefit". DIdn't used to be that way (back in '87), but it it
now. 

    FYI,

    I just spoke to a local radio talk show host who specializes in
    Financial/Tax matters.  I explained I go directly from my home to a
    customer site and back every day and pass my DEC office on the way.  I
    explained I claim the distance from where I pass (at 60+ MPH - not
    stop) as business miles and the rest as personal/commuting miles.  He
    said this is WRONG and that ALL of my mileage is BUSINESS!  I am going
    to send him a note and he will send me IRS Chapter and Verse.  I will
    post it here when I get it.

    John

    
    RE: .185
    
    The IRS distinguishes based on the nature of your assignment.  If this
    is a permanent (whatever that means today) job, none of your commuting
    miles are business.  If this is a temporary assignment (usually less
    than a year at most), then all your miles are deductible AND you can
    also deduct some of your living expenses.
    
    JN

    
    I signed on this conference, saved the 100+ replies since 11-Aug (the
    infamous DVN) and read with great interest every one.
    
    Only one note proposed to write to Mr. Z with a concerted effort to
    effect the policy.  The rest of you are analyzing the issue ... from
    cents per mile to which car-that-goes-boom you're going to drive to DEC
    when they pull your perk.  And that's OK ... this IS the DEC discussion
    at its best.  So, after 100 replies, can we distill this down to a
    reasonable proposal ?  I have heard many *valid* reasons why the
    current proposal is suspect, among them:
    
    a) Not officially recognizing a drop in "compensation" for those who
    continue to be employed (for which we are thankful, Amen).  Therefore,
    not putting into place a financial transition plan (DCU loans are
    currently over 9% for 5 yr term),  and assuming that every affected
    employee will have the resources to support another automobile AND
    maintain the image that Digital wants to its customers.  This is a more
    crucial point than almost all of the others combined, if you ask me.
    
    b) Not effectively addressing "dynamic conditions" for Digital Services
    consulting assignments.  This "qualify now .. not qualify later.. then 
    requalify again" situation is awful.  Without the mileage requirements,
    we could skip all of that.
    
    c) Encouraging "artificial" behavior to keep actual miles accumulating. 
    This wastes employee time, and therefore Digital's time and money. It
    is also awful on the environment.  We should be incented to carpool
    more often, not drive more often.  
    
    Please consider this next argument from a purely academic standpoint: 
    
    Which is worse ... complying with the letter of the law, (and driving
    your fool head off .. don't tell me that 800 miles/month, an average of
    40 business miles a day is not 1 hour out of every 8 on the road ...
    ok, ok, so we all work more than 8 but you get my drift), or breaking
    the letter of the law (i.e, "padding" your business miles to keep the
    car, but not wasting the company's time or spoiling the environment to
    do it).  If this were an exercise in graduate ethics, and you were
    faced with this dilemma -- what would you do ?  I would opt for the
    latter as the "less unethical" choice.  Of course, they are *both*
    unethical, but that's how flawed I see the policy -- driving the *most*
    unethical but still "legal" behavior.  
    
    d) So, the ethical may have to get to work on a Honda. (Notwithstanding
    any company policy so prohibiting ..). For Sales Support, we can go with
    Sales to the customer site (whatever heap they're driving), or strap on
    the helmet and (my wife will never see this) two-wheel it out there,
    too. (I can't believe I'm contemplating this on an XL-100 ?). 
    Seriously, there have been many tongue-in-cheek comments about the
    Yugos and Datsun B210s, but three months does not an economic
    turnaround make for a household income that looks at a late model car
    payment as .... whoaaa!  The $360/month may be taxable, but it's better
    than a swift (ouch !) kick, which is what I feel has been delivered.
    
    My constructive suggestion:
    
    The individual (-.169) who volunteered to plead our case to Don Z ...
    take this note (of course) and the other ones in here that represent 10
    or 20 points of light, and go for a kinder, gentler, more deliberative
    and thought-out car plan with no minimum miles on plan B.  Not that I
    have a preference.  Oh, and a pool of company cars for business use is
    really not such a bad idea -- if management decides they have enough
    data, and are not willing to spend any more management units of time on
    this highly selective reduction in compensation. 
    
    If you send it to SMOKN::MEAGHER before it goes to Don, I'll be glad to
    offer my editorial opinion (from a Sales Support perspective).  If
    you've already sent it, would you post it ?
    
    Keep up the ideas, but make sure somebody's listening !  BTW, how did
    they come up with that 500 and 800 mile minimum ?
    
    /Kent
    
    
    
    

	Mailed 24-Aug-1992 (Yes, I know it's long-winded)
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    
          Mr. Zereski -

               Is the car plan (as it now exists) compensation for
          employees, such that the loss of a car is a $5,000 cut in pay;
          or is it an extra, a gracious benefit to which with the
          passing of time field employees have grown to feel entitled?
          From the corporate view, is it an unnecessary expense to be
          reduced without effect, as one might remove free coffee
          service from the budget (unwise though this may be in a
          software shop); or is it instead a necessary expense for a
          tool of the trade, a tool which the employee would not and
          could not provide in the same way?  Are we trimming the
          fat--or cutting off our feet?
               The local offices and the corporate networks have been
          humming with debates like these since the DVN presentation on
          11 August 1992.  I have my views on the matter and felt it
          important to make them known, so that (hopefully along with
          other employees' submissions) there might be "new data" for
          the decision-making process--new data which may prevent severe
          unintended consequences for the field and for the corporation
          as a whole.

               What is the added value of my input, you might ask?  I
          have been with Digital only thirteen years, but in that time I
          have worked in Engineering and in the field in Digital
          Services (EIS); I have been a vanpool rider and a vanpool
          driver; and I have (in the field) driven my own car (while
          working part-time) and (now) a company car.
               As well, I am a Consultant, and go to customers to
          advise, design, and (frequently) develop software.  My time is
          sold to the customer at a premium, and the packaging and
          delivery of this "product" can affect the customer's
          perception of Digital.  I meet customers--executives,
          developers, users of our hardware and software--on their turf,
          taking Digital and Digital's technology to the customer,
          whether in a business suit in mid-July in New Jersey or, more
          casually, carrying a workstation and manuals into a customer
          site to do development with them for a week, a month, a year.
          My customers value my ability to come to them anytime, almost
          anywhere, to talk for two hours, or to teach for six, and they
          pay for that time.  To do this, I need to get to the customer,
          not just to my office.
               As I understand it, the proposed car plans--both Plan A
          and Plan B--require 500 miles of business travel
          (initially--this may be raised to 800 miles) per month to be
          eligible, based on a six month average. Under Plan A, the
          employee receiving the car pays (for a mid-size car) some 19
          cents per mile for personal mileage.  Under Plan B, Digital
          will pay the employee about $350 per month to buy, insure, and
          maintain a late-model car, and will reimburse the employee
          about 9 cents per mile for business mileage.
               I feel that this change will not benefit the company in
          the long run, and that there will be significant unintended
          consequences of implementing the plan as proposed.  As I am
          arguing my own case as well here, and am most familiar with my
          work in Digital Services (EIS), I must draw on the effects
          this will have on the work I do for Digital.

          Problems
               First, I see increased administrative costs for this
          program, assuming that Digital Services people somehow manage
          to retain eligibility for the car plan.  This increase would
          stem from the volatility of our Services work, especially in
          software.
               I have seen sites where the same Digital employees from
          Sales or Sales Support remain at that site year after year,
          building relationships with key customer personnel, getting to
          know the whole of the customer's needs and values.  In the
          same way, there are sites where the Customer Services
          (Hardware) engineers are full-time, with entry cards for the
          doorways and all the trappings of customer employees.  I have
          seen far fewer where Software Services personnel were on-site
          long enough for the same treatment.
               Even though I have been on residencies as long as 18
          months, directing customer employees in projects, I still
          can't enter the building myself, because I am recognized as
          short-term.  I have worked at a site three miles away for
          months, and then been assigned 20 miles away for a year, then
          25 miles, then 30, then...three miles, again.  If (during
          those three years) I somehow managed to remain eligible for a
          car plan, what would happen when I was reassigned (after the
          average drops, of course)?  Do I lose a car I'd used for three
          years?  Do I suddenly have to make payments myself on a car
          I'd bought to meet the requirements of Plan B?  When the
          customer gets irritated with Digital (for one reason or
          another) and tosses out our consultants (as has happened), and
          I am reassigned to my last customer, 30 miles distant--how
          long before I average enough to go back on Plan B?
               This may not, of course, shake the corporate tree very
          much.  What will it cost, though, to track the mileage,
          reassign the cars, move the eligible to ineligible, switch
          employees between Plans B and C?
               Next, I believe this will have a significant effect on
          the productivity and morale of those of Digital Services who
          spend time with customers, especially software Consultants and
          Specialists.  (Remember that this announcement follows by two
          months the indignity of having Services contributors shut out
          of the Circle of Excellence awards.  Demoralized employees do
          not make good representatives for the company, as I myself
          have found.  Reviewing the comments I have read and heard, I
          would have to amend the first sentence to "this has had a
          significant effect".)  
               The primary effect for many of us delivering services to
          customers will be the loss of "our" cars, and a corresponding
          effective decrease in salary and (probably) mobility.  This
          will affect many of us because business mileage (by Digital
          policy, following the IRS) does not include commuting mileage,
          which is mileage from home to the place of business and back
          home.  For us in Digital Services, that includes nearly all
          our mileage, because many of us leave home in the morning and
          drive directly to the customer site, work there for the day,
          and drive home.
               As an example, for the better part of last year, I drove
          30 miles each way to a customer site, and paid $8.50/week
          (that's $400/year or so) on top of that for tolls: all
          commuting, none reimbursable.  My monthly business mileage was
          around 40 miles, since I visited the office on the way home
          once a week or so.
               In addition, a co-worker who lives in Bethlehem (PA) works
          ("is assigned by his manager to a customer", that is) near
          Philadelphia, logging some 100 miles a day: commuting mileage
          and tolls, all of it, unless he checks his mailbox in
          Allentown every morning and every night.
               My point is that it is nearly impossible for any Software
          Services (to use the more specific name) specialist to log
          legitimately 500 miles of business travel per month, so long
          as that specialist is doing useful work at one customer site.
          We cannot safely work in our cars (as might a sales rep equipped
          with a car phone), so it is in our interest to spend our time
          at a customer's, not between customers.
               The result will no doubt be that many specialists will
          lose their cars, unless they take steps to reduce productive
          time by visiting the office more frequently than necessary.
          These will be ineligible for either car plan (as the plans now
          stand), and will be forced to drive their own cars on
          business, with the extra insurance and maintenance costs that
          go therewith.
               Now, one way for Services employees to keep their cars is
          to increase the business mileage.  The "legitimate" way to do
          this is to visit the office at least twice each day.  One
          might check in at the office on the way to a customer's ("Have
          to get my mail, you know") and on the way home ("Maybe some
          important E-mail came, and there may be some interesting Notes
          entries").  Any other mileage during the day is business
          mileage, and will be billed back to the company appropriately.
          The car will receive more wear, the employee will be less
          efficient, and our business will suffer the loss.
               Supposing that this loophole proved too burdensome for a
          field employee, whether on the employee's time or the
          employee's conscience.  The employee then is ineligible for
          either plan, and bears the burden of all mileage, insurance,
          and maintenance.  "But," I hear you say, "even in this case
          Digital will reimburse the cost of mileage, and that at $.225
          per mile!"  Unfortunately, that *still* applies only to
          business mileage, and (as I have shown) there is virtually no
          legitimate business mileage for Services people, however far
          they may travel to a customer.
               In such a case, how many employees will willingly pay
          business expenses from their own pockets, day in and day out?
          As a Consultant, I may be assigned anywhere in a district that
          includes portions of five states; more likely, I will be no
          more than 50 miles from home on a regular basis.  I already
          grow weary from long drives to customers (an hour each way in
          traffic); I pay the tolls because that's a cost of business.
          But if I have to burn out my own car, pay high business-travel
          insurance rates, in addition to the above--I will be
          encouraged to find customers a few miles from home and stay
          there.  There will be strong "disincentives" to provide
          services more than five miles away from Blue Bell, PA, and I
          may not so readily say, "I'll go," when help is requested.
               Employees perceive reduced benefits and the loss of a
          valuable business tool; they go to great lengths to retain
          those benefits, reducing their efficiency; they become less
          willing to serve the customers that Digital seeks to delight.
          What can follow but seeking the stability of a fixed workplace
          for a company that does not command them to make bricks
          without straw?
               Unless Digital wishes to become an expensive clubhouse
          for executives, we cannot afford to lose the people who do the
          real work that brings in revenue.  The company cannot afford
          to pay for excessive benefits, I know, and costs are rising;
          but we cannot place obstacles in the way of our employees and
          expect them to carry out our business efficiently.  We cannot
          take from our field people (already underequipped in many
          ways) a tool of business without inquiring whether it is
          necessary to their work.

          A Suggestion
               Therefore, while I cannot propose a replacement car plan,
          I would like to propose a means of developing one wisely and
          equitably.  I am unable to offer a concrete suggestion on what
          the car plan should look like: I see the car plan from only
          the "user" end, as a customer of the car plan.  There are no
          doubt a number of costs to the plans: administrative,
          maintenance, legal, etc.  There are also benefits to the plan,
          some of which may not be expressed directly in dollar amounts.
               Given that there are a vast number of variables involved
          in the administration of the car plans, perhaps it might be
          well to work toward specifying a "quality" car plan in the
          same way that TNSG has declared we are to specify our software
          products in the future, through Contextual Inquiry and Quality
          Function Deployment (QFD).  Contextual Inquiry (as I
          understand it, foggily) would place decision-makers in the
          field, in the passenger seat, finding out how field employees
          use (and regard: perception is important!) their cars, how
          frequently, what needs the cars meet, etc.
               QFD would (for a start) gather together in one room
          (perhaps under the care of Russ Doane or another of our QFD
          facilitators) users of the car plans (field employees);
          benefactors of the car plans--that is, customers who depend on
          field people's availability; implementors, administrators, and
          managers of the car plans.  These would proceed to evaluate
          together
            o  the aspects of the plan which delight and please field
               employees and the customers the employees serve, and
            o  the features of the implementation which make the plan
               workable and affordable from a corporate standpoint.

               There would then be (one may hope) adequate data to
          formulate a plan which will not have such a potentially
          disastrous effect on those who deliver Digital to the
          customer's doorstep.

    
    	Hard note to follow,
    
    	I must remark that I hope HR doesnt expect to drop this car plan
    change on us, if invoked, during the holiday period Nov-Dec.  We need
    to be informed, formally, with enough lead time to make the change a
    tolerable $%#@^&* one.  Not like last years health care "plank walk",
    dropped on us with little time to weight the alternatives.  (blue
    cross, etc)  Please dont delay if you plan to change it, give us formal
    fair warning with enough time to go in debt "before xmas".
    
    Hey rocky, want to watch me pull a car plan out of a hat?
    
    mark

    .189
    
    And now for the bad news.....this car plan was dropped on our group
    yesterday, Tuesday, 9/8.  If you don't meet the qualifications (only
    one person in our Sales Support unit did) your company car goes away
    December 1st.   Merry Christmas.
    
    

What were the specifics of the plan? Is the mileage qualification for both
Plans? Any transition or compensation for loss of car? Details, details, please!

			/ed/

*Forwards removed*


If you haven't already received the packet, the following is a brief outline of 
the changes to Fleet Plan recipients, what needs to be communicated to the 
employees, and a time frame in which all changes/updates need to be complete.

Please make sure these eligibility changes, etc. get communicated and 
implemented in your areas.


CHANGES AT A GLANCE:

    -	the personal use charge (PUC) under Plan A now based on personal miles 
        driven

    -	the average monthly reimbursement under Plan B increased by 75%

    -	a minimum monthly business mileage requirement has been established

    -	senior managers and staff personnel can no longer participate in car 
        plans
    
    -	two classes of vehicles are offered under Plan A

    -	the monthly reimbursement under Plan B will vary according to geographic 
        location

ELIGIBILITY:  to participate, an employee must satisfy ALL six criteria below, 
        the last three being new for FY93

    -	the applicant must be a regular, full time employee working in a Sales, 
        Digital services, or US Marketing organization, AND

    -	the applicant must have an approved job code, AND

    -	the applicant must have a valid state drivers' license, AND

    -	the applicant must be involved in direct customer contact, traveling 
        from a digital work site to a customer site, AND

    -	the applicant must meet the minimum monthly business mileage requirement 
        of 500 miles, AND

    -	the applicant must not be a member of the US Team, hold a  staff 
        position or other senior management position

If any criteria is not met, the application should be rejected, or a new 
exception process should be followed.  	

EXCEPTION PROCESS:

    -	 requests for exceptions should first be reviewed within the employees 
         organization

    -	 requests should then be submitted to the Business Transportation 
         Manager for review (Ira Thompson, dtn 232 2259)

    -	 final approval reserved at the US Team level

PLAN A:

    -	 the Personal Use Charge (PUC) will be 22 1/2 cents per non-business 
         mile for the Taurus/Lumina class vehicles

    -	 the PUC will be 19 cents for non-business mile for the new 
         Tempo/Corsica class vehicles

PLAN B:

    -	 the average monthly reimbursement has been increased to $350/mo

    -	 individual reimbursements will vary to reflect actual cost in different 
         metropolitan areas (available upon request)

    -	 the business mileage reimbursement will remain at $.08/mile

DUE DATES:

    -	 9/28:  begin eligibility review process with employees 

    -	 10/1:	new Plan B rate takes effect

    -	 10/23:	review process completed

    -	 10/28:	eligibility decisions finalized

    -	 1/1/93 actions:

    	 .   deadline for turning in leased cars for employees going off Plan A. 
             Employees who want to buy leased cars must complete purchase by 
             this date

    	 .   the new 22 1/2 or 19 cents per mile PUC takes effect on Plan A

    	 .   employees going off Plan B are removed from the monthly 
             reimbursement payment schedule

    	 .   employees no longer eligible will be reimbursed for business 
             mileage at the corporate rate of 22 1/2 centers per mile

    	 .   eligible employees can initiate process to enroll in Plan B

Mileage qualifications are for both plans a ans b.  I was with
Lee Ann yesterday when we talked.  I am planning to get my 10
speed cleaned up and ride it and BART to work.  At least my girth
will be reduced.  

I think that in the SF area, the support people are being rather
hard hit.  I find that I can walk to about 90% of the calls I make,
but the district includes many remote areas where it is virtually 
impossible to get to by public transportation.  I feel that I have
a real need for the car, but because of some rather black and white
metrics, I won't qualify.  I guess I won't be able to go to Napa 
county to present to Apple or to Davis to talk to UC Davis, or go
up to the Sacramento Office when needed.  

As my son would say, " Oh Well"

Larry

RE: .192 (details about the plan)

>PLAN A:
>
>    -	 the Personal Use Charge (PUC) will be 22 1/2 cents per non-business 
>         mile for the Taurus/Lumina class vehicles
>
>    -	 the PUC will be 19 cents for non-business mile for the new 
>         Tempo/Corsica class vehicles

Is this in addition to or instead of the $30/week we pay now?

-- Ken Moreau

Jack,

Anybody that has ever ridden in an '89 Celebrity knows that it has *NO* class!

;-)

Keith R>

    Just heard how Digital is going to assist current Plan A participants
    who will no longer qualify. . . 
    
    Digital will offer a 10% discount on the purchase price of the vehicle
    being driven by the employee.  I am looking at a one-time out-of-pocket
    expense of about $4000 to purchase a serviceable vehicle that will last
    me for the next three years.  If I purchase the company car (which if I
    have a choice of vehicle to drive, this isn't it), Digital will give me
    a $420 discount on the $4,200 quoted for the '89 Taurus.  I understand
    that each cost center pays about $550/month for a company car, of which
    $130/month comes back in the form of personal use payments.  This
    amounts to $420/month savings for me going off Plan A.  I would have
    hoped Digital could have been a bit more magnanimous in sharing its
    savings while assisting those of us who are reaching into our pockets
    to help get the company back into the black.
    
    tgc

From my point of view, I think it is generous that you are getting an additional
10% off.  From what I've seen, the cars must already be a good deal, since a lot
of people end up buying their old Plan A cars and reselling them.

Digital is under no obligation to give you ANY additional discount.
 
These cars are perfectly maintained (assuming you are maintaining it) and you 
know its history.   Most of the mileage tends to be highway driving (your
geography may be different, but this is the general case).   If there is a 
known problem with the vehicle, you have enough lead time to have it repaired 
before buying it.

Good luck getting that kind of deal at your local used car lot.

Bob

    re: .200
    
    I agree with you for the most part, however, remember we pay for all
    options TWICE when we purchase a Plan A car.  The 10% discount simply
    means that we pay for the options once.  Big deal.
    
    For those of you who wonder how we pay for options TWICE, we pay cash,
    up front, for all options we order on a Plan A car.  When the selling
    price of the car is determined, the fleet operator (usually GELCO)
    determines the selling price by taking the base price of the car, and
    then ADDS the value of the options to the base price.  So, if the base
    value of the car is $4,000 and you put $400 of options on the car and
    these options add $200 to the value of the car at the end of the lease,
    you will pay $4,200 for the car.
    
    Bob

    My experience has been that the GELCO price was higher than what I
    could get for a car with 60,000 miles on it.  As far as getting known
    problems fixed on your DEC car with over 50,000 miles ... just try.
    
    	Roger Grant
    

I don't know about the rest of the US, but we just had about 6-7 brand 
new Taurus' delivered (over the last 3 months) to replace cars with 
high mileage (over 70000 miles). Many of us forked out $500 or more to 
add some options assuming we'd be keeping the car for 4 years or so. 

If for some reason I don't qualify for a car plan, I just threw away 
$500+. I would have kept my old Taurus and bought it for $2900 to 
drive a few more years. I wish someone back in May/June would have 
told us the car plan was changing and that we might want to wait 
before ordering new cars. I don't know what GE Fleet would want for 
this new Taurus (with only 3300 miles on it) but I'll bet it's a bunch 
more than $2900.... and DCU has such "great" rates on used cars (7.9%, 
8.9%, 9.9%).   :^(


Arlan

Re: .201 & etc.

I agree... if you bought options, you'll pay double.  (I didn't)

As for some warning that the car plan was going to change... that happened
almost two years ago.  (Which is why I didn't buy options)

And yes, you will always pay more for a car with 3300 miles on it, than a car
with 60,000 miles on it.

If the GELCO cost of the car is more than you would normally pay for it from
an individual or dealer, then why are so many Digit's buying and reselling their
old cars at a profit?

My $.02

Bob

    	What is the criteria for Plan B cars ?
    
    	How old can they be ?
    
    	Can I use my RoadRunner ?
    
    	Frank

    Given what I have read in this topic is true, and I have no reason to
    believe otherwise, I should be in decent shape. I have a '90 Taurus
    that I got new, it has ~42,000 miles and I ordered it with no options.
    It's in very good shape with an excellent maintenance record. I was
    going to just drop out of the car plan altogether and buy this car.
    
    But there is a catch.
    
    I checked my records for the last 6 months and my mileage breaks down
    like this. I averaged 920 miles a month on customer related issues. I
    averaged about 135 for personal use (I live very close to the office).
    
    Here is my dilema.
    
    I qualify to keep the car on car plan A. For now. I think. Because of 
    account realignment, I seriously doubt I will average 500 business miles a
    month during the up and coming 6 months. So I will probably lose the
    plan A option then. I am thinking of sticking with car plan A until I
    no longer qualify, then buy the car and forget about DEC car plans.
    From everything I have read this seems to be the best option. Is it?
    
    Gene.

    RE: .200
    
    Yes, I think Digital is trying to help by giving 10% off.  But if you
    look at what Digital is saving BY HAVING ME START PAYING FOR SOMETHING
    THEY HAVE PROVIDED ME FOR THE LAST 12 YEARS, it is a rather paltry
    offering.  Yes, the GELCO price to us (already a 10% discount off
    market, according to our local fleet person) plus the additional 10%
    being offered by Digital gives a good price.  However, I am still
    having to reach into my pocket to come up with an additional $xK
    dollars per year.  No matter what personnel and management says, they
    are giving me a pay cut.  If they don;t believe me, I will show them my
    W2 that reports to value of the car AS INCOME.  I still contend that
    they could be a little more `generous'.  I know they don't owe us
    anything other than the paycheck for work provided, but maybe it is a
    sign of the new management.  Maybe they don't want to have the
    closeness and comradarie that helped make this a great company in the
    past.
    
    tgc

    
    RE: .207
    
    > the GELCO price to us (already a 10% discount off
    > market, according to our local fleet person)
    
    	Since GELCO 'owns' the cars they are taking depreciation for them
    off their income taxes.  Assuming they use double declining balance (or
    MACRS as the IRS calls it these days) the 3-4 year old cars should be
    almost fully depreciated.  If they sell them at more than their book
    value they have to show the extra $ as recaptured depreciation (which
    goes straight to the bottom line) and therefore increase their taxes.
    
    	Normal or 'market' prices aren't determined the same way, since
    most cars on the market are from private owners who can't use
    depreciation on their personal vehicles. 
    
     	I think Digital's Fleet Operations should try to make a deal with 
    GELCO where they can pick these cars up at book value and _then_ resell 
    them to employees.  We can sure absorb the extra income better than GELCO.
    
    JN

Is there some sort of "official" document on the 10% discount?  I'm
in the process of buying my car and every little bit helps :-)

thanks,

gog

    The 10% I heard about was add a quarterly employee meeting we have
    here.  The District Services Manager (I don't know what his `official'
    title is - but he was district software manager when we had district
    sales managers) sits on some kind of review committee that is reviewing
    the car plan details before the `official' packet of information is
    sent to employees around September 28.  Check with your `district'
    management and see if they have anything.
    
    tgc

    RE: .211-
    
    >the car plan details before the `official' packet of information is
    >sent to employees around September 28...  
        
    	So, from whence does the following flow?:
    
    >  <<< Note 1664.192 by SYORPD::DEEP "Bob Deep - SYO, DTN 256-5708" >>>

>*Forwards removed*


>If you haven't already received the packet, the following is a brief outline of 
>the changes to Fleet Plan recipients, what needs to be communicated to the 
>employees, and a time frame in which all changes/updates need to be complete.
    
    Phil

    

    	Orphan grocery cart on local office loading dock with a sign:
    
    
    	DEC 1993 car plan proto.
    
    	Ya' gotta love it....
    
    Phil

    Why should Gelco or PHH quote a sell price to someone whom already
    purchased the options with their own money. Granted DEC or the leasing
    company owns the car but I assumed that the only possibilities were
    you totalled your car in which case no one wins or your car
    has reached end of life and you've gotten your moneys worth out of the
    options you purchased .Then the Leasing company/DEC can reap the
    benefits of the options when they auction the car.
    
    But pay for the options twice.... fat chance.
    Mike Turro

When I was in the field, we were made to understand that any option
we purchased with our own money, was owned by DIGITAL/the leasing company.
We were not allowed, for instance, to remove said option and relpace it
with original equiment so that option could then be used in a succeeding,
identical, "DECmobile".

When the car was offered at the end of the term (I turned a car,
on average, every 13 months with 60000 miles) the options were NOT deducted
from the offer (having seen two equivalent cars, one with tape and upgraded
other things the other stock, same model/year and close mileage/age).  I had
hoped this changes, but it does not seem to have from this note stream.

    re: .175, .176 (reposted below)
    
    Can anyone verify whether or not the 'floor' for deducting unreimbursed
    employee expenses (Form 2106 -> Schedule A) will indeed go from its
    current 2% to 4% as stated in .176?
    
    If this is true, those employees currently contemplating a conversion
    from Plan A to Plan B may wish to take a closer look at the virtual
    loss of deductibility that this change implies.  I guarantee you that
    the difference is worth examining in detail.
    \Gary
    Yes, I suppose I could call the IRS  :7)
================================================================================
Note 1664.175        Anybody got any facts on the car plans?          175 of 215
MAIL::ANDERSONB                                       7 lines  25-AUG-1992 17:23
                       -< Expenses allowed w/in limits >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As I recall, IRS will allow all expenses, within limits, to be written
    off against reimbursements received. The limits are about $14K total
    depreciated value over three years, and only those expense which exceed
    a percent (2% I think) of your income. This last limitation was a
    significant tax change implemented during the last two "no tax
    increase" administrations. This limit works like the medical 2%
    limitation. Bob Anderson.
================================================================================
Note 1664.176        Anybody got any facts on the car plans?          176 of 215
CIVIC::COUTURE "Gary Couture - NH Sales Support"      4 lines  26-AUG-1992 09:26
                             -< limit is 4% now? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
re -.1 

I was told that the limit is now 4% which makes it difficult to recoup
any costs.
    

    Hi,
    
    	We were told today that we are able to leave our plan A cars at the
    office in the evening and drive our own vehicle, thus avoiding the
    daily to/from the office as personal miles.  The only caveats were we
    had to remove DEC property from the vehicle in the evening and put it
    in a secure location.  Also you can use your plan A car during standby
    taking it home each day with no to/from personal mileage charge other
    than those not associated with business (a trip to the store,etc).
    
    	Things are definitely looking up on this policy.  We have to
    decide by 10/23 which way to go, plan A,B or C.  Also the 10% discount
    on purchasing your current car only applies to people no eligible for
    plans A or B.
    
    
    						Don Ford
    

I know the answer to the above question is yes, but thought it was 
still worthwile to frame the question...

I am a sales support person in the field and I would like 
to state that I am really torked off by the 500/800 mileage
cut off for both plan A and B.

I have legitimate business reasons to visit my customer 
(approximately 12 miles round trip) at least once a day a 
minimum of  4 days a week.  I have not fudged this data and thus 
expect to loose my car.  Note: I do visit other customers throughout 
the course of a typical week, however, the mileage is still way less 
then 500/month!!  In short this is due not to the frequency I visit 
my customers but rather due to their relative proximity to the DEC 
office.

After reading the replies to the base note I must say that
I am strongly considering (as someone else suggested) riding
a bicycle to work; as I live less than 5 miles from the office.

Thus, my question is, can anyone force me to drive my personal
car to/from my customer??  I understand that DEC will contribute
22.5 cents/mile for my business miles however at $10.00 (12*4*.225)
a week this won't make it worthwhile to maintain a car for work.

I guess my basic problem is I really believe the mileage cut off
should not apply to plan B.  If this were true I would happily
convert over to plan B and deal with the service/insurance issues of
maintaining my own auto.  However, with the current plan I feel that
Digital is adding insult to injury by not only effectively handing me 
a pay cut, but in addition, asking me to further subsidize business by
driving my own car (when I could just as easily use other cheaper forms
of transportation).

I realize times are tight but I really think this is taking it a bit 
too far!  Digital is in effect requiring me to maintain two autos
when a single one would otherwise suffice. Insurance etc. in California 
is not cheap!! For example, the Digital Plan B allowance indicates that
a car is worth at least $ 370/month here in Santa Clara.

I have debated for some time whether or not to speak up on this issue
in a public forum.  I realize that some of my comments could be construed
as insensitive to Digital's current business climate and even self-centered.
However, I am concerned that as the details of this plan reach the field 
I will not be the only person in this predicament (virtually everyone in
Sales and Sales support in my office will have the same problem) and I 
fear that we may lose even more of our best people as a result.  For
example,   in the brief checks I have made, neither SUN nor SGI have 
mileage cutoffs for their field car plans.


Regards,

Peter Lamb

    Completely off the subject - hi Peter, how the hell are ya? :-)
    
    /andy

    If this has been covered already, I apologize; but for the employees
    who will now have to use their own vehicles "on company business"
    during the workday, is there any compensation or requirements for
    additional liability insurance?
    
    The TFSO'd friend I've frequently mentioned uses her own vehicle
    while working for one of our ATD's.  The ATD adds additional monies
    to her car compensation plan because *they* require her to carry
    higher levels of liability insurance than she normally would.  Is
    DEC doing the same?
    
    Karen
    
    

    re: .220
    
    No.  You are expected to cover that out of the Plan B payment you
    receive.  Supposedly, one of the reasons for the variable Plan B
    payment amount was to help people cover the geography-sensitive costs
    of car ownership.  Unfortunately, from what I've seen, it doesn't even
    come close.
    
    Bob

    Thanks Bob, that's what I was afraid the answer would be.  Although
    I'm not personally affected, I can have compassion for my co-workers
    who will now possibly have to purchase a second vehicle.
    
    I may have mentioned it earlier in the string; my ex-husband worked
    in DEC FS.  His offer letter clearly stated a company car would be
    included as part of his compensation from DEC.  Granted, this was a
    few years back and perhaps managers *now* have been instructed not
    to put such things in offer letters (assuming we're still offering
    jobs to people), but I can remember what a crunch it caused when he
    left DEC and we had to purchase a second vehicle because I was using
    our one and only personal vehicle to get to my job.
    
    I agree DEC has to tighten its belt; but let's make sure that belt 
    isn't already around someone's neck.
    
    Karen
    

    
    re: .221
    
    That is correct, but only for the folks who drive enough miles
    to qualify for plan B. What about those of us who will have to
    drive our own vehicles on DEC business on a regular basis, but
    will not meet the 800 mile requirement? I make several trips
    a day for DEC, but they are short and seldom add up to 40 miles
    per day. The new car plan will mean that I must go out and
    purchase a vehicle. I will not go into debt for anything nice
    (read: expensive!), because of the fickle finger of TFSO fate,
    nor will I pay for additional insurance to cover DEC's butt.
    I like my job, and I'm glad I still have it, but the new car
    plan sucks. So, I'll be arriving at the customer's site after
    Dec 1 in an old pick up with $100,000 worth of DEC parts
    covered by a tarp in the back.
    

Re: .221
    
>    No.  You are expected to cover that out of the Plan B payment you
>    receive.  

BZZZZTTT! Wrong answer.

What Plan B payment??

How does Digital expect to deal with liability insurance on peoples' personal 
vehicles, which they are using for Digital business, when Digital will no
longer pay Plan B payments?

Does Digital expect us to pay for extended-liability insurance on our own,
without compensation now?  Is Digital willing to have us out there without such
insurance on Company business?  Does Digital really think that 22.5 cents/mile
is reasonable compensation for usage costs AND  additional insurance
requirements?

It all seems unreasonable to me, and I fear that many many folks will go with
only standard insurance policies.  If this happens, sooner or later, Digital
will get hit with a lawsuit big enough to make up for the entire car plan
issue.

Kevin

    If you're on Plan 'C' (that is: _not_ on plan A or B) then you do
    whatever you want to for insurance.  There are no mandatory coverage
    amounts, additional insured, etc.  You charge DEC 22.5 cents per mile
    for the business use.

    Asking the same question that is in .218, can Digital require me to use
    my personal (plan c) car for company business?

I have no plans to purchase a car and along with about 90%
of the Sales Support People here in S.F. I will not be 
eligible for a plan.  One of our people does not have the means
to purchase a car, will that person be let go??

Larry 

Re:  Note 1664.225 by DLJ::JENNINGS
                             -< What's the issue? >-

>    If you're on Plan 'C' (that is: _not_ on plan A or B) then you do
>    whatever you want to for insurance.  There are no mandatory coverage
>    amounts, additional insured, etc.  You charge DEC 22.5 cents per mile
>    for the business use.

The issue is that, as I see it, Digital saw a potential liability, and covered
its corporate butt by requiring all Plan B participants to add Digital as 
an additional Named Insured on the policy, and at an elelvated liability limit.

We will now have those same drivers doing those same things, without the extra
insurance provisions.  The liability has not vaporized.  How will Digital 
protect itself?

***HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION***
i.e. if I cause an accident while on company business, the victim could name
Digital in a lawsuit.  As precedents have been set in U.S. courts, this could
cost Digital lots of money.
*** END HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION***

Kevin

    re: DEC equipment in our cars...
    
    Hmmmmm -- I agree, Kevin -- what happens when I'm carrying 1 or more of
    those fancy new workstations/disks/screens/manuals between Office and
    Customer Site, and BLAMMO, out of the blue, I get rear-ended damaging
    the system box, breaking the screen, and crushing the disk drives.
    Me... I'm ok since I was wearing my seat belt (hey! this is
    hypothetical, right?!).
    
       My current insurance (I don't think) covers any of DEC's stuff. Do
    we as a company shrug it off, and try to purchase another system??
    
      I think I'm gonna call my insurance company and see what they say,
    and I think it would help if anyone out there had insight into the
    Company Legal stuff.... no offense intended, but opinions only get you
    so far these days...facts, on the other hand....
    
    Bruce Evans
    
    
    PS: I'm not going to be awfully suprised if this was talked about in
    previous notes... this seems to keep coming up... (wish I had a faster
    access to notes than 2400 baud modem... sigh)

re:      <<< Note 1664.223 by FINALY::BELLAMTE "Me fix! Want bannana NOW!" >>>
                           -< Keep on Truckin' .... >-

>    plan sucks. So, I'll be arriving at the customer's site after
>    Dec 1 in an old pick up with $100,000 worth of DEC parts
>    covered by a tarp in the back.
    
I think this comes under the wonderful term "malicious compliance" ...

    re:-.1 & -.2
    I believe thats the reason DEC has you get insurance naming them as
    another interested party as they want their parts/equipment protected.
    
    The other reason is we are all not perfect. hypothetically suppose you
    had one to many on the road and you get into an accident. Well DEC could 
    be liable as well. They are only covering their butts as I would.
    
    DEC is in business and we as employees need to get our acts together
    to get us thru this. Im of the opinion lets quit complaining and
    get back to business. Many of the things that have happened the past
    few years have been a prelude to the reality of today. They need to be
    interpreted as changes coming down the road and we should prepare for
    them. Although Im not as of yet but... The hand Writing was on the
    wall. 
    
    Mike Turro
    

    Is there any requirement for any Digital employee to own an automobile
    (or, if owned, to use it on behalf of the company)?  This may be naive,
    but why not just use a rental car (AVIS, etc.) when job duties require
    a car and the company does not supply one?  I assume that such an
    expense is reimbursible -- or is there something I'm missing?

    
    I'm wondering the same thing.  I will be losing my Plan A car soon.  My
    customer sites are anywhere from 4 to 34 miles away, but I don't drive
    500 miles a month.  If they take my car away, is there anywhere, anyway
    a requirment that I must have a car for employment?  I'm in sales, and 
    I could ride the bus, have my wife drop me off, or ride my motorcycle.
    
    What happens when I can't execute my job duties because I have no
    transportation?
      

    Seen in a recent Help Wanted Add:
    
    Join the Dominos Pizza Team - Must have own car.
    
    >    What happens when I can't execute my job duties because I have no
    >    transportation?
    
    What do you think?

    
    You have helped me make my point!
    
    Domino's Pizza requires you to provide a car.  They say so right in the
    job req.  It is a condition of employment, stated in the advertising.
    
    We never did, don't now, and as far as I can tell, will not.  We appear
    to be assuming that if we confiscate peoples' DEC wrecks, that they
    will happily replace them at no (read minimal) charge.  I am just
    asking the question, "How did we get from 'free DEC car' to 'you
    provide the car to DEC free'?"                                      

	Let me try to answer a few of the recurring questions that keep
popping up in this note string. I like everyone else was a bit confused by
all the rumors floating around so I made a few phone calls (lots of good
numbers in VTX US_FLEET).

[insert disclaimer here.I don't speak for fleet,Digital,or any insurance
company.Just repeating what I've heard and seen from personal experience].


	Insurance: There is NO requirement to list DIGITAL as a co-insured
The requirement is only to list the company as "an additional interested
party" this only means your insurance carrier has to notify DEC if your 
insurance status changes. I just bought insurance on a new car, this
requirement had no effect on the cost. Listing the vehicle as a business
vehicle may or may not cost more depending on who you call. In fact, here
in Los Angeles I got quotes ranging from $1280/YR to $3500/YR for coverage
that exceeded the 100/300/25 requirement. Note that 100/300 was also required
by the finance company so I can't blame DEC for the higher than normal
coverage.

	Loss of DEC assets from vehicle: There is something called "Digital
Risk Management" that covers DEC equipment. No extra riders on your insurance
or deductible. (Makes sense to me since DEC didn't cover my property if it
was stolen from the DEC-wagon; why should I cover them?).

	Variable reimbursement: I took a list of ZIP codes for all our
local offices, plus the B plan rate table to my insurance agent. She
immediately recognized the pattern. For example; there are four other 
offices within 5 miles of LLO where I get my mail. The rates vary +/-
$100/Month from the $390 listed for LLO. Insurance for the same coverage/
vehicle varied by almost exactly the same amount. The rates apparently
aren't as random as they may at first appear. There is of course the factor
that most people don't live in the same ZIP code as where they work, and
insurance rates are based on where you live, not where you work. Some
people may benefit, some will be hurt (I got lucky; rate was the same for
home or work ZIP code).

	For me, the new B plan seems like the right choice. It will cost
more, but now I own the car that I want. My mileage is about even between
business/personal and DEC and I will split the cost about 50/50.

	Where I will (may) be hurt is that when I bought my house 7 years
ago, I chose to live close to my customer base rather that near the office.
It avoided a long commute, and gives my customers 15 minute response,
unfortunately it limits my business miles. Due to recent losses of engineers,
and changes of contract base my mileage is on the increase. I hope enough to
qualify. Also, I haven't been too religious about filling in expense reports
so my (reported) business miles are probably much lower than actual. Not a 
problem under the old plan where it cost me $30 per week regardless. Under
the new plan the company will use the last 12 months to determine eligibility.
There is a review process that is suppose to address this kind of problems.
I hope management will 'Do What's Right' and give us the benefit of the
doubt for the first round. 

	NOW FOR THE BIG "GOTCHA!"

	Once I made the decision to go to plan B, I bought a car, got
insurance, checked to be sure my A car would get a new home,filled out
all the forms and was ready to go. After all, the new payment plan starts
in October (right?). WRONG! I was told today that all transfers from plan
A to plan B are FROZEN until January. Now I have an A car that is still
costing me $130 a month that I can't turn in, AND a brand new car that I 
can't make the payments on. Just a word of caution to anyone else considering
the switch.

	{{ Maybe I can live in one car and drive the other?? only in
           Los Angeles can you find a HOMELESS TWO CAR FAMILY   8^) }}

-Bill

    re.236
    	I have a package on this new fleet thing (I thought of several
    other choice words but "thing" will do). It was addressed to "U.S.
    Managers" and is signed by Robert T. Nealon (US operations & Logistics
    services Manager). Table 1: Implementation Schedule has the following
    "10/23/92  Suspend transfers from plan A to plan B untill 1/1/93".
    	Acording to this document you should be able to get your new car
    covered on the B plan so long as you apply before 10/23/92. You might
    want to call the Fleet Admin. "Hot Line" DTN 232-2222 or 508-264-2222.
    I hope this helps.
    Jeff Filer
    SSR _ Systems Support

    re .237
    
    I have the same document, but cannot find where it states that I can
    change to Plan B from Plan A before 10/23.  What page, paragraph, and
    line number are you finding this information?

    RE .238
    
    Page 4 has Table 1. The second item from the top of that table is the
    one I quoted back in .237. Page 3 is titled The manager's role in the
    implementation process. That section may have been sent only to
    managers. The next page is a title page: Business Transportation FY93
    Program Changes....Employee Briefing. It is numbered as page 1. Check
    with your manager or your manager's manager and call tthe hot line.
    (I'll bet it is a HOT LINE with every one calling being so p*$$ed off)
    Jeff Filer
    SSR - Systems Support
    

    RE: .233-
    
>    			If they take my car away, is there anywhere, anyway
>    a requirment that I must have a car for employment?  
    
    No, there's nothing that states a requirement, as far as I know. Merely 
    the _implied_ requirement that you must meet a mileage minimum before 
    being eligible for reimbursement or a fleet car. Convenient, knowwhatimean?
    
>    What happens when I can't execute my job duties because I have no
>    transportation?
    
    This remains to be tested in real life and potentially the courts, I
    fear. 
    
    I read the message simply: "Do you wanna keep yer job? Then SHUDDUP..."
    
    IMHO.
    
    Phil
    

    Getting back to plan 'C', what are the implications of using a personal
    vehicle for business related activities?  A point was brought up about
    Digital's Risk Management and DEC equipment.  What about customers or
    others who are being driven in a Plan 'C' vehicle?
    
    Example: I'm directed to pick up a customer from the airport and bring
    him to the office.  I get into a wreck (hypothectically :) and we're
    both injured.  What would be the legal or insurance ramifications?
    
    --- Gavin

RE: .236

	I called the Plan B Hot Line thinking the same as you last week - new 
payments start in October, get 'em while you can.  They told me of I believe 
four different qualifications which would allow you to switch to Plan B at any 
time between now and the first of the year.  Unfortunately, I don't have them 
with me right now, but I know one said a switch could be made based on milage 
of the Plan A car and another was based on finding an assigned home for the car 
within a 24 hour period after it was turned in.  You might want to give them a 
call and check on it again...your milage may vary :*).

				Tom

    
    I have received confirmation both from my manager and from fleet
    that the freeze on transfers that was listed in the managers guide
    is wrong. We can still switch at any time from A to B as long as
    the other requirements are met. (Intresting that I got a call from
    fleet as a result of my note .236 before I heard back from my manager.
    Nice to see DEC has at least one line of comunication that works
    8^)  )
    
    Your 'A' car must be transfered by:
    
    	A. Transfered to another eligible employee.
    
    	B. Made a "floater" by your district.
    
    	C. Employee purchase.
    
    	D. Put in the Region Reasignment pool.
    
    	E. Retired if over 55,000 miles or 5 years.
    
    -Bill
    

Our unit manager sent a letter of concern to Don about the change in 
the car plan (mainly the mileage issue).

Don responded (via mail) saying that the design committee is also 
concerned for a number of major cities for reasons that have been 
discussed here.  They are looking at some new data on a possible change to 
the minimum mileage.  He couldn't promise anything but he did say they
will are looking at it hard and they will do what is right for the field
people.

Here's hoping....


Kevin (thinking about going bicycle shopping)

I apologize if this question has been answered previously, but I have only 
seen people's opinions and "someone else told me" type statements regarding it.
What is Digital's standard for counting business mileage vs. personal mileage.
Not the IRS's, or some Accountants, but Digital's!!
I guess the easiest example I can think of is :

	I live 10 miles from the office.
	I live 20 miles from the customer, where I am performing my work.
	
What do I count as business miles and what do I count as personal mileage?  

If someone in Fleet Administration or some other organization, that can be 
held accountable such that I could point my manager in their direction should
a question arise, answer this, I would greatly appreciate it.

     I have not gone through this entire string so point me to the correct 
    reply if it has been discussed. There are times while on standby that
    I have to go into area's that I would not normally take my personal
    car. Why should I do this for DEC and be forced to be responsibe for
    the liability??? The Bay Area Rapid Transit closes at midnight.
     IF my car is broken into,stolen or harmed in any way WHY should I be
    responsible???? The only thing I see the Corp saying is TUFFthats the 
    way it is.
    
    Ron

    
    I believe there are many areas of concern here, that the decision
    makers need to take into account. There MUST be equality in the plans
    or hate_and_discontent will climb even further. We currently have three
    DECvans in our office. One is being retired, two are empty of parts,
    are driven home every day,and the drivers are not charged either
    mileage or a $30 flat rate. Not real fair, eh? I reside at a large
    AeroSpace company, resonsible for lots and lots of DECstuff. I prefer
    this environment and the customer seems to appreciate my efforts. I do
    not spend hours and hours driving, the office is less than 2 miles.
    Which means I now take a nn% pay cut to provide my own ride. 22.5
    cents won't cover it. But I'll do it, like they say, I do need a job.
    
    			But I will not like it.
    
    .mike.
    "Self Propelled Field Service"
    

    NOW WHAT?
    
    Fire drill number 324 on the car plan. Why is everyone in the US on car
    plan A required to fill out a form by Friday (10/16) that is to be sent
    to corporate? 
    
    Gene
    
    
                                     

    what form?

re. .249
    
    This is the form I filled in and sent to my seretary this morning. I 
    deleted a couple of the lines at the bottom. This came out as an URGENT
    request last night to be return to corporate (not just locally) by this
    Friday. Beats me what's up.
    
    Gene.

				                      VEHICLE INSPECTION REPORT


EMPLOYEE NAME ___Gene Haag________  BADGE NUMBER __198406______  DATE 10/14/92

COST CENTER _867__     LOCATION ___MPO_______     DTN/PHONE NO. 442.2255
VEHICLE NUMBER (not VIN or serial no.) _88695_______      YEAR ___1990____

MAKE __Taurus_____              PLAN:   A     (CIRCLE ONE) 

STATE REGISTERED ___MN_______

INSPECTION:   

         EXTERNAL CONDITION:   CLEAN __X__   FAIR ______
									       
				               TIRES:    GOOD ____   FAIR __X__

BUMPER STICKERS OR TRAILER HITCHES?   YES ______  NO ___X___

			       INTERNAL CONDITION:   CLEAN ___X___  FAIR ______

			               UPHOLSTERY:   CLEAN __X____  FAIR ______

Well, I'm still on plan A (for another couple months...), and haven't
heard anything about a form.  I have also been told in no uncertain terms
that I have NO chance of remaining on plan A.  Maybe it's for folks who are 
either borderline, or who will be keeping Plan A status...

Kevin

    That looks like a vehicle condition report, usually filled out before
    turning company cars in...
    
    tom_p (not trying to fan the fire, but...)

    I have been shown an Employee Briefing Package that was intended to be
    presented to all affected employees by 9/25/92.  It gives the details
    of the new policies and says that by 1/1/93, you either buy yer car,
    turn it in, or start paying the mileage fees per policy.  Bob Nealon
    signed it....looks pretty official.
    
    Steve

    My manager is still waiting to be told something official.
    
    Bob

    Bob,
    
    Have your manager contact Mr. Nealon directly. There is a presentation
    and script that all afflicted managers are supposed to present to their
    direct reports regarding the New Car Plan. It has dates, Q&A, who/where
    to call for more info, the works!
    
    - Larry.

    
    This package has been distributed to all affected here in Seattle.

    re: .255
    No need to ask.  We know what is going to happen.  We just find it
    humorous that no one has bothered to tell us.  Maybe they'll forget us
    when it comes time for TFSO, too :-)
    
    Bob

> Maybe they'll forget us
>    when it comes time for TFSO, too :-)

	I wonder ... We just had a pay check audit in NIO. One had
	to show their badge and sign for their paycheck or stub.
	Perhaps that was to catch anyone whose boss hadn't gotten
	around to letting them know about TFSO? :-)


			Alfred

	I did some research on insurance coverage for the 
company car plans "B" and "C" and found something that all
Digital employees should be aware of. If you use your personal
car under the casual business reimbursement "Plan C" and do not
have business coverage, your at risk....

	I spoke with my agent and tried to get the facts on what
is covered and not, (got double-speak) but when I pushed the 
agent, the agent said that I would not be covered. In other words
if while driving my personal car under "Plan C" a accident occurs,
lawsuits come next.... insurance company walks away, leaving you
holding the bag, you can loose your house, personal assets, etc. 
etc.

	The agent said if I want to be covered, then I need to
purchase business insurance, with Digital name added. This means
more money out of my pocket for this coverage. Digital doesn't
reimburse you for this, only 22.5 cents a business mile.

	Also any company property, test equipment, laptops, PCs,
workstations that are being transported in your car that happen to 
stolen, damaged in accident, etc. is not covered at all even with the
business insurance.
    
    
    Renis
    

    Renis,
    
    This is good info to have.  I asked my manager about needing additional
    insurance for plan C vehicles.  The answer I got was, "No addtional
    coverage is needed."  Of course, this is from DEC's point of view.
    
    It is my intention to use any floater vehicles in the parking lot for
    Digital-related business (besides driving to and from my job-site).
    
    That's another thing, my answer on commuting miles (i.e., where is your
    job site?) was, "Where you spend the most time doing your job." (not an
    exact quote).  My interpretation of this is, if you work at a client
    site and start your day there, those are considered commuting miles
    (personal).  Now if I can only expalin that to my CPA who insists
    otherwise.
    
    --- Gavin

    As a sales rep last year, I drove about 9000 business miles to my 2 
    accounts which are 4 and 7 miles from the office.  Facing the possiblity 
    of losing my PLAN A car, have started to plan for financial impact. 
    With the purchase of a modest car and insurance, coupled with the
    potential loss of 10% of my income, I am looking at a negative change
    in income of $330/month AFTER taxes.  I may need to take some drastic
    steps in order to keep both my house and my job at Digital...
    

Just as an FYI, I called to see how much PHH wanted for my Plan A vehicle.  Its 
new, less than 7K miles.   Through a mistake made by the dealer delivering the
vehicle, I happened to receive a copy of the PHH invoice showing what they
paid for the vehicle.

The price they quoted me for this used car was $400 more than they paid for it 
when it was new!

I think I'll pass...

Bob

    
    Re .262
    
    Why doesn't that suprise me????

A few weeks ago a software specialist drove 2.5 hours from the DEC office
in one city to another city (with a DEC office) to install some software
a customer had purchased(*). The specialists' manager told them "Today,
your work site is <remote customer>, therefore your mileage to and from
the site is personal miles and not business miles."



This is a sad state of affairs... yes, I understand the need to reduce
unnecessary fleet cars, but what kind of statement is this making as far
as how we treat our employees? A legitimate(*) business use here and the
manager is playing games so that the employee travel is not counted as
business.

How does Digital expect to pull out of its slide with demotivated
employees? Busting their chops with tricks like this sure does not help.


Lee

(*) will start another unrelated topic on these points

    I believe the IRS regulations also have a 50 mile radius clause...
    
    Dave

    
    re: 264
    
    That software specialist needs to ask for relocation money to the new
    jobsite.  His manager can't arbitrarily reassign him to new locations 
    without going through the proper procedures.  I wonder what HR would
    say if they knew this employee had been reassigned toa new city for one
    day?  

    We just had our unit mtg this a.m. and a report was handed out
    indicating each fs engineers milage record on which a decision 
    was made about who's on/off the car plan.I could not believe
    what i saw.We have site residents and dedicated site engineers
    averaging 1200 to 1600 miles a month at sites less than 15 miles
    from the office.I also noticed the farther an engineer lives from
    the office the more business miles that were reported than those that 
    live closer.
     My concern is the practice of inflating miles for personal gain.It
    has a ripple effect.First it is fraud and theft of company asset.Second
    it now comes out of a cost ctr's budget and people tend to get laid off
    when the budget doesn't get made.Third,it is probally one of the
    factors that did in our car plan,we couldn't afford it.
     If you're wondering,I did not qualify for the car plan.I am a resident
    at a large site about 10 miles from our office.I reported my expense
    miles correctly and fell 76 miles short of the 500 average .
    
    
    
                                                 sour grapes off         

    re: 267
    
    Maybe what we should all do is call up the local IRS offices and ask
    them to come in and audit everybody who remains on the plan.  Ah, heck,
    let's make it fair for all.  Audit everyone that has had a car in the
    last year.  That would make sure that everyone is working from the
    exact same legal footing.  They would have to justify all their miles
    according to the law of the land, not to the whims of managers who have
    not been auditing it correctly.
    
    I feel I have been honest in my reportings over all the time I have had
    a company car (more than 12 years).  Anyone with a company car should
    feel no qualms about such an audit, unless they know they have been
    doing things incorrectly.  Even if they have been doing things
    incorrectly in ignorance, shouldn't they feel better knowing that they
    will be able to correct things in the future?
    
    tgc

    According to the Policy and Procedures in VTX about Personal miles - 
    it states in "D" that miles from your home to a temporary Remote
    site is business miles. Now - they define temporary as less than 
    1 year - but they don't define remote. We are all having the same
    problem here. No one seems to really know what is going on, except
    that managers are NOT affected by this. I average 600 business miles
    and have put on 80,000 miles is 2 -1/2 years. I am not impressed! I
    have even moved closer to the office - just to have them close the
    office and try to move us up north. So far - they are letting us remain
    at our closed office (ok- so it isn't official yet). I am busting my
    b--- tyring to do a good job and not complain when they send me to
    far off places - but it is getting a bit ridiculous! SOmething just has
    to give.(ok- so I am most likely next on the list). At least they let
    us gripe.
    

    As far as the mileage report, my mileage for last month was 60,000!
    some of the people in my unit had negative mileage. For some reason I
    don't think that report is any good.
    
    Stewart, who is staying on plan "A"

    >We have site residents and dedicated site engineers averaging 1200 to
    >1600 miles a month at sites less than 15 miles from the office.
    
    Not excusing your site residents, but in my case (I'm a site resident,
    also), I go to the office 1-2 times/week (60 miles round trip), pull
    standby (accruing business miles on each callout) and am actually site
    resident for 2-3 sites (spaced about 5 miles apart).
    
    Yes, it IS legitimately possible for a site resident to put on business
    miles.
    
    	Stu

        Re: .270
        
>    As far as the mileage report, my mileage for last month was 60,000!
        
        Based on 31 days and 24 hours of driving a day, you averaged
        just over 80 miles per hour!
        
        Don't you know it's not safe to drive that fast on no sleep?
        
        					B.J.

A new version of the EXPENSE program (V 2.15) is now available that: 

    accommodates the new Digital reimbursement policy for personal
    use of the company car (PLAN A) on a per MILE basis (personal use
    of the company car on a per WEEK basis is still available).

See note 2102.24 in this conference - or - see the GUIDUK::EXPENSE notes 
conference for more information.

I just received the attached memo from my manager ....  

-------------- start memo ------------------------------------------

                  I N T E R O F F I C E   M E M O R A N D U M

                                        Date:     04-Dec-1992 03:08am PST
.
.
.
 
Subject: Car Plan Implementation Dates                                          

.
.
.
Subject: Implementation Dates - FLEET PROGRAM FY93                              


              ***** PLEASE DISTRIBUTE TO ALL MANAGERS *****
    
    The purpose of this memo is to remind all managers with employees 
    currently on Fleet Plan A or Plan B of the implementation actions 
    required in December and January.  (Attachment 1)
    
    Also included is information from the Digital Employees Credit 
    Union describing their loan programs for 100% financing of both 
    new and USED cars.  Interested employees should contact DCU 
    directly. (Attachment 2)
    
    
    
           ***** USED VEHICLE WARRANTY PROGRAMS AVAILABLE *****
    
    For information on the programs contact PHH and G.E. directly.
    
    		PHH - Shirley Bull at 410-771-2622
    
    		G.E. - John Mountain at 612-828-2443, or
    		     - Telephone 800-538-1479
    
           ***** USED VEHICLE WARRANTY PROGRAMS AVAILABLE *****
    
    
    Regards,
    Ira
    
    
    
                             - Drive Safely -
    


    
                IMPLEMENTATION DATES - FLEET PROGRAM FY93
    
    
    PLAN A:
    "01/01/93 Employees going off Plan A have completed purchase of 
              fleet vehicle or turned it in to manager."
    
    	      If the employee is buying the leased vehicle they should 
              get the process started very soon as it takes about 
              three weeks to complete the process.  Sale needs to be 
              completed by January 1.
    
    	      If the employee is turning in the vehicle, they may do 
              so anytime between now and 1 January.  If the vehicle is 
              being used for holiday travel the manager may extend the 
              turn-in date to 6 January, if appropriate.
    
    	      For vehicles turned in, the manager should provide the 
              following information to FLEET ADMINISTRATION @ACO or 
              FAX DTN 232-2299:
    
    	      	- Vehicle #
    	        - Name of employee turning in vehicle.
    	      	- Mileage from odometer
    	      	- Complete address of vehicle location, name of the     
              person holding the keys, outside telephone number     
              and DTN.
    	      	- Is the vehicle operable?
    
    	      If the manager needs assistance in arranging for 
              temporary storage of the vehicle contact Dana Novello, 
              DTN 232-2341, commercial 508-264-2341.

    "01/01/93 Begin Plan A PUC at $0.225 per personal mile."
    
    	      The Personal Use Charge (PUC) on Vehicle Expense Summary 
              reports submitted for week ending 9 January and after is 
              to be computed by multiplying the number of personal 
              miles driven for the period by $0.225.  This amount is 
              then entered on the VES in the space where the $30.00 
              per week rate was entered on previous reports.
    
    
    Plan B:
    "01/01/93 Employees going off Plan B removed from monthly 
              reimbursement payment schedule."
    
    	      Those Plan B employees identified in the November 18 
              reports as no longer being eligible will not receive a 
              Plan B reimbursement check in January.
    
    Mileage Reimbursement:
    "01/01/93 Employees of plans begin business miles reimbursement at 
              casual rate of $0.225 per business mile."
    
    	      Commencing with week ending 9 January, reimbursement for 
              business miles for employees no longer on Plan A or Plan 
              B is claimed on the weekly Employee Expense Voucher at 
              the rate as published in the "orange book" currently 
              $0.225 per business mile.
    
    	      Plan B buiness miles reimbursement rate continues at 
              $0.08 per business mile and is claimed on the weekly 
              Employee Expense Voucher.

               ***** THIS ATTACHMENT PROVIDED BY DCU *****
     							    12/03/92
                DIGITAL CREDIT UNION OFFERS 100% FINANCING
                        FOR NEW AND USED VEHICLES
    
    Do you need to purchase a new or used vehicle with no downpayment?  
    DCU is your first choice for fast, easy, and affordable financing 
    programs.
    
    DCU vehicle loan features include:
                                                                     
    100% FINANCING ON NEW AND USED VEHICLES
    Whether you're buying a new or used car or truck, we'll finance 
    the full purchase price or the book value, whichever is less.  
    We'll also finance the full purchase price for the purchase of 
    leased vehicles.
    
    EXCELLENT RATES AND TERMS
    DCU offers a variety of programs that are sure to meet your needs:
    
    New Vehicle
    Annual Percentage Rate*       Term		% Financed
    7.75%			  2-5 years	100%
    
    Used Vehicle
    Annual Percentage Rate*	  Term		% Financed
    6.90%			  12 mos.	100%
    7.90%**			  24 mos.	100%
    8.90%			  36 mos.	100%
    9.50%			  48 mos.	100%
    9.75%			  60 mos.	100%
    
     *Rates assume automatic payment
    **Example: a $5000 used vehicle loan at 7.90% for 2 years - 
    	       $45.18  (per thousand) x 5 = $225.90 per month.
    
    24-HOUR APPROVAL PROCESS
    Once we receive your application and a recent paystub, you'll have 
    your answer within 24 hours! You can arrange to purchase your 
    vehicle right away, or take your time shopping around for the best 
    price.
    
    MONEY-SAVING AUTOMATIC WEEKLY PAYMENT PROGRAM
    Your payment will be applied directly to the loan each week.  This 
    method allows faster principal reduction which saves you interest 
    and helps you pay your loan off sooner.
    For example: a 48-month loan will be paid off in 44 months with 
    weekly payments.
    
    COMPLETE YOUR APPLICATION TODAY!
    Visit your local branch or call our Vehicle Loan Specialists at 
    1-800-328-8797 or DTN 223-6735, Audrey MacLean x156 or Anne Nelson 
    x145.


Distribution:
 
.
.
.

I have been distracted by another project recently and not able 
to respond here.  But i want to alert readers to a potential danger
lurking in the company car plan transition.

This danger affects you if you are going off Plan A and purchasing
your car.  It takes approximately two weeks to process your order
and send you the title.  During these two weeks, ABSOLUTELY NO ONE
MAY DRIVE THE CAR.  Look under the terms and conditions supplied
with the "Request for Used Vehicle Sale Quotation."  My list, dated
9/25/92, has as its fourth item:

o  a vehicle being purchased under this program is left in the    
   possession of the Cost Center Manager until ownership documents are
   received by the purchaser of the vehicle.  The vehicle should be
   parked in a secure area or, if authorized by the Cost Center
   Manager, parked at the home of the employee who is purchasing the
   vehicle.  

According to Fleet Administration, this rule is because the car is
removed from Digital insurance.  Thus, if the car were to be
involved in an accident, there would be no insurance.

Please realize the gravity of this situation.  If you are involved
in an accident, you may be personally liable.  Digital has removed
the car from its insurance and ordered you not to drive it.  You
may not be covered by any insurance you have.  You could be
personally liable for damage to the car, other cars and property,
and all personal injury.  How much do you have in the bank?  Want
to see it disappear?

I just went through this two week period and relied on mass
transportation to get to work.  It was extremely inefficient.
But I saw no other option.  You may consider doing the same.  If
you must travel on business as part of your job, you might ask
management or fleet for suggestions.  Fleet created Rule # 4
(above).  What did they have in mind when they wrote this rule?
Please share with all of us here any information anyone has.

Never drive any car without being completely certain you are
protected by insurance.  To do otherwise may be a criminal
violation.  

Note:  Fleet contact is Susan McNally, DTN 232-2355.

    There is no consipracy afoot here.  The matter is one of simple
    logistics.
    
    You cannot insure or register a car to which you do not have title.
    Digital has no business insuring or registering a car to which it has
    no title.  The title changes hands at some point between the time you
    send the certified check to GELCO (or PH&H) and the time you receive
    the title document back in the mail.  Since it is impossible from a
    practical standpoint (since you don't have the document in hand) to do 
    anything about it even if you knew the exact moment of transfer, the
    only realistic alternative is to park the car until you have receive
    the appropriate documentation and properly register/insure the vehicle.
    
    I expect to have a bunch of unassigned cars come January 1 (in fact, I
    already have a few as people start moving off plan A).  I'm sure your
    group will be no different.  If one of my people needs a car while they
    await title (for the few who are actually buying their plan A car), I
    will have no problem assigning them an unassigned car for the few weeks
    it takes.  No reason why your manager can't do the same.
    
    Al
    

re: .275

This varies from state to state.  In Texas all I have to do is call my insurance
agent and say I am purchasing such and such car and I am covered.  If you have
the VIN handy, they like that, but it's not a requirement.  If I remember
correctly, it was that way in Ohio too.

Bob

    Last year when I bought my Plan A car, I called METPAY explained what
    was going on, faxd them something (I don't remember what) and they
    insured the car from the day I signed/sent the Gelco paperwork.
    (If it is significant, I am in Ohio).
    
    	Dave

    Aww, c'mon .277, git off yar horse!
    
    	:-)
    

    In Mass, a car can't have a plate without insurance, so as long
    as your DECmobile has Mass Plate on it, it is insured.

    Is this kind of like, if you have checks in your checkbook, 
    then you must have money in the bank?

>    In Mass, a car can't have a plate without insurance, so as long
>    as your DECmobile has Mass Plate on it, it is insured.

Actually, you can't GET a plate without insurance. Once you stop paying
your insurance, the state will cancel your registration. Theoretically,
they should try to retrieve the plates, but this isn't too likely in real
life. There are plenty of people driving around in MA with plates, but 
without insurance.

--RS

    re -1
    	I highly doubt GELCO or Digital would let that happen.

    Here in Minnesota I was told yesterday - BY GELCO - no problem...  As
    soon as they receive the certified check they take the car off
    Digital's books and it belongs to me.  I call my insurance company and
    get insurance.  THE CAR IS DRIVABLE.  Eventually I receive the title. 
    Digital wants a copy of the title.  No muss, no fuss.
    
    BTW:  I still hope every manager involved with causing this disaster
    for a large portion of the company develops a plague of boils!  

    
    I have a question on what constitutes Minimum business mileage. 
    According to Item 4 'direct customer contact'.  I assume that racking
    up 500 miles per month travelling from one digital site to another 
    does not qualify for the Car Plan?  How is this to be monitored?
    
          A.  To participate, an employee must satisfy ALL six criteria
              below.  The last three are new in FY93.
 
              1  The applicant must be a regular, full-time employee
                 working in a Sales, Digital Services, or U.S. Marketing
                 organization ... AND
   
              2  The applicant must have an approved job code ... AND
  
              3  The applicant must have a valid state driver's license ...
                 AND
 
              4  The applicant must be involved in direct customer contact,
                 traveling from a Digital work site to a customer site ...
                 AND
 
              5  The applicant must meet the minimum monthly business 
                 mileage requirement of 500 miles ... AND
 
              6  The applicant must not be a member of the U.S. Team,
                 hold a staff position or other senior management position. 
              
             

    I haven't heard anything that indicates that the IRS has changed the
    definition of business miles, so I doubt that DEC has changed theirs.
    
    Bob

    I have some questions that I hope someone who currently has a 
    'home office' and has a company car can answer.
                  ---
    
    	1) What site code do you put on your expense form ?
    
    	2) Do you calculate any personal miles when you drive
    	   from your 'home office' to the customer site ?
    
    	3) Do you have any formal agreement with Digital ? (in writing)
    
    Thanks,
    Brad.

    re: Home office...
    
    News item this evening - apparently the US Supreme court upheld
    a more restrictive IRS interpretation of the home office rules.
    
    A home office is no longer deductable if you primarily work away 
    from it; for example, a consultant with a home office that spends
    the bulk of their time at customer sites can no longer claim it.
    
    	Dave

    But can I deduct the cost of a second phone for dialing out to
    customers??
    
    - Mike
    

Re: .290

If your employer requires it.

Lee

    Under the HOME office plan, the nearest Digital office is your site
    code. Therefore, if your site code is 20 miles away from your home
    office, the first 20 miles of travel to the customer site or other
    Digital locations is considered personnel miles.

    Have you seen this in writing somewhere?  Or is this your management's
    interpretation?
    
    Brad.

    why don't you go into VTX ORANGEBOOK, and find out what *is* in
    writing??
    
    bwe

    re -1
    
    	Because it is vague, the IRS guidelines are vague, and FLEET 
    recently sent out a memo that directly contradicts the ORANGE book.
    And, it would seem to me that claiming mileage from the nearest DEC
    site defeats the purpose of a HOME office, hence the question.
    
    Brad.

Greetings friends,

A question and an opinion;

When the new car plan was being talked about (initally by the departed Don z.)
I read several places that one of the many options were to drive a personal
car to the office then use a company car. In the many articles that were 
floating around this option was mentioned by someone as the preferred option
by management. Also was mentioned that when the car was used by engineers 
who were on standby that person would be allowed to take the car home. So 
with all the volume I am known for I was blabbing around the office that 
this was a policy. Someone recently said prove it and now I can't find a 
reference to it anywhere. The P&P said standby is personal miles but then 
its not been updated since March `92. So I'm looking bad here.

For a number of reasons alot of engineers are taking their personal cars to
the office and using the comapny cars all day. What a horriably inefficent
way to use field service engineers! Ideally we should be on-site first thing
in the morning not at a DEC office to pick up a car. Also while I'm at it...
I guess the new growth industry will be courrier services. They are 3 deep 
at field service offices waiting for parts to be delivered to sites. I guess
this is much more efficent than having engineers pick up there own parts. My
fondest hope is that these couriers are working for FREE. 

Fred Mudgett

Fred,

Here is a portion of the memo we received. It answers your questions about
standby towards the end. 

Forwards were deleted...hope it helps you.

John D. 

==============================================================================

  
    PERSONAL AND BUSINESS MILES - QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS:
    
    The purpose of this section is to provide guidelines, by example,
    to use in deciding whether mileage is business or personal for
    Fleet Plans A and B. 
    
    Key:
    B=business mileage
    P=Personal/commuting mileage
    
    Source:
    ( )Rev Rul 90-23,I.R.B. 1990-11,4
    ( )CCH commentary 1352.144,1991 service
    ( )The Earnst & Young Tax Guide 1992(pg 419)
    ( )IRS Publication 463 and 917

    							10/29/92
                FY93 U.S. BUSINESS TRANSPORTATION PROGRAM
                     ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS and ANSWERS
    
    Example 1: Home/Office/Customer
                                                         Mileage
    Driver reports regularly to a Digital office and
    travels from Digital office to customer site:
     ( )Travel from home to Digital office                   P  
     ( )Travel from Digital office to customer site          B
     ( )Travel from customer site to:
          Digital office                                     B 
          Home                                               B(Note 1) 
    
    
    Example 2: "Office at Home"/Digital Office/Customer
    
    Driver maintains an "office at home"(Note 2) and travels between 
    home,a Digital office and customer sites.. Purpose of driver's 
    trip to Digital office is to pick up supplies/equipment:
     ( )Travel from home to Digital office                  B  
     ( )Travel from Digital office to customer site         B
     ( )Travel between customer sites                       B
     ( )Travel from customer site to home                   B
     ( )Travel from Digital office to home                  B    
    
    
    Example 3: "Office at Home"/Occasional Digital Office
    
    Driver maintains an "office at home"(Note 2) and travels
    occasionally between home and a Digital office. Purpose for 
    travel to Digital office is occasional business meetings: 
     ( )Travel from home to office                          B
     ( )Travel from office to home                          B
    
    
    Example 4: Home/Permanent Customer Sites
    
    Driver travels from home to a several permanent customer sites
    (Note 3):
     ( )Travel from home to first customer site             P
     ( )Travel between customer sites                       B
     ( )Travel from customer site to home                   P
    
    
    Example 5: Home/Temporary Site/Office/Home
    
    Driver travels from home to temporary customer site(Note 4),
    from temporary customer site to regular Digital office,
    from regular Digital office to home:
     ( )Travel from home to temporary customer site         B(Note 1)
     ( )Travel from temporary customer site to regular
        Digital office                                      B
     ( )Travel from regular Digital office to home          P  

    							10/29/92
                FY93 U.S. BUSINESS TRANSPORTATION PROGRAM
                     ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS and ANSWERS
    
    Example 6: Home/Temporary Site/Home
    
    Driver travels from home to temporary customer site(Note 4),
    from temporary customer site to home. Driver works regularly
    at Digital office:
     ( )Travel from home to temporary customer site        B(Note 1)
     ( )Travel from temporary customer site to home        B(Note 1)
    
    
    Example 7: Home/Training
    
    Driver travels from home to a training site. This site is not
    located at driver's regular Digital office.
     ( )Travel from home to training site                  B
     ( )Travel from training site to home                  B  
    
    
    Example 7(a): Required Education
    
    Driver is required by Digital to undertake special evening/weekend 
    education. This education qualifies driver to perform specialized 
    services for a customer. Driver travels as follows to pursue 
    education:
     ( )Travel from home to education site                 B 
     ( )Travel from education site to home                 B
    
    
    Example 8: Standby/Regular Office/Permanent Customer Site
    
    Driver operates out of a regular Digital office and occasionally
    is on standby while at home. Driver travels as follows during
    standby status:
     ( )Travel from home to permanent customer site
        (Note 3)                                           P 
     ( )Travel from permanent customer site to home        P
    
    
    Example 9: Standby/Regular Office/Temporary Customer Site
    
    Driver operates out of a regular Digital office and occasionally
    is on standby while at home. Driver travels as follows during
    standby status:
     ( )Travel from home to temporary customer site
        (Note 4)                                           B(Note 1)
     ( )Travel from temporary customer site(Note 4)
        to home.                                           B(Note 1) 

    							10/29/92
                FY93 U.S. BUSINESS TRANSPORTATION PROGRAM
                     ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS and ANSWERS
    
    Note 1:
     Business miles equals total mileage from customer site to home
     less number of miles from office to home. For example:
       Mileage from home to customer site    50
       Mileage from office to home          (30)
        Business mileage                     20
    (If above business mileage is zero or less,the travel represents
    personal mileage).
    
    Note 2:
    "Office at home" is an office maintained at the driver's home
     primarily for the convenience of Digital. "Office at Home"
     also includes time when driver is at home on standby status. 
    
    Note 3:
    A customer site is presumed permanent when the assignment,
    at the outset,is expected to last for over one year. See Note 5. 
    
    Note 4:
    A customer site is considered temporary when the assignment,
    at the outset,is expected to last one year and less.
    
    Note 5:
    A site is presumed permanent when the assignment,at the outset,
    is expected to last for over one year. This presumption may be
    rebutted and the assignment considered temporary when:
     -The assignment does not extend beyond two years,and
     -The driver submits compelling evidence substantiating
      a temporary assignment.
    (The IRS provides no guidelines showing how the presumption is
     rebutted). 
    
    

	<Re: .297>

	John, where did this memo come from, was it a fleet memo? What was
	the distribution. 

	This is a question I have been asking for several months now. 
	I wanted to determine what what considered Business milage if 
	I had a home office.


				Thanks
				Chuck

    Hi,
    
    I was told I would be off plan B as of Jan 1, 1993.  In Jan. I got 
    a plan B check.  I informed what I thought were the right people.
    In Feb. I also got a check.  I informed more people.  Today I got 
    A1mail saying I have to give the two months worth of 'net' money back.
    No problem,  I had a feeling that would happen.
    
    So, if you are still getting plan B money and you shouldn't, don't
    run out and spend it all.  They will want it back, eventually.
    
    Judy (poorer but not suprised)
    

    Same thing happened to me.  Of course, neither I nor my manager got any
    official notification that Plan B was changing, way back in the fall. 
    If it hadn't been for this conference, my manager and I might not have
    even known it was supposed to happen.  BTW, when my manager called
    fleet, the person told her that things were so messed up that nobody
    really knew who was and wasn't supposed to be on Plan B.  Chalk another
    one up for our great internal systems :-(
    
    Bob

    Does anyone know when the minimum business mileage goes from 500 to 
    800?
    
    Thanks

    According to the A1 I recieved, July 1, 1993.
    
    But don't be suprised if it doesn't happen, the "good" (read smart)
    DM's got the troops exempted from that nasty little quagmire.
    
    

Any definite word on if this is gonna happen ?????

Arlan