Conference 7.286::digital

    
    I sympathize with your plight, and certainly wouldn't like to be it.
    
    I think the difficulty here is a clash of two cultures. Certainly
    people transferring between two Western countries wouldn't expect to be
    put in the spot you're in. However we're talking here of somebody
    coming from one culture (Indian) to another (Western), and its a
    question of who's morals/rules/religious-cultural taboos apply.
    
    To take all the human emotion out of your question, you've been
    offered a wonderful opportunity to travel and see other places at the
    companies expense, and they've been fairly upfront about the
    issues/costs involved. I imagine DEIL wrote such harsh terms into your
    contract as they need to establish credibility and dependability by
    delivering what they promise. Since this is an international
    understaking they have to work even harder at overcoming barriers.
    
    The main thing for me would be to look after your wife and hope for
    healthy baby in three months!
    
    Simon

    
>    I sympathize with your plight, and certainly wouldn't like to be it.
    
>    I think the difficulty here is a clash of two cultures. Certainly
>    people transferring between two Western countries wouldn't expect to be
>    put in the spot you're in. However we're talking here of somebody
>    coming from one culture (Indian) to another (Western), and its a
>    question of who's morals/rules/religious-cultural taboos apply.
 
	I don't think this is an issue of a clash between two cultures. And why
	would people coming from a non-western culture expect to be treated any
	less than the people coming from the western culture.

	I also don't think it is a question of morals/rules/religious taboos. 
	Every human being,irrespective of the culture or the country he belongs 
	to, would appreciate the need to be with his/her families under these 
	circumstances.
   
>    To take all the human emotion out of your question, you've been
>    offered a wonderful opportunity to travel and see other places at the
>    companies expense, and they've been fairly upfront about the
>    issues/costs involved. I imagine DEIL wrote such harsh terms into your
>    contract as they need to establish credibility and dependability by
>    delivering what they promise. Since this is an international
>    understaking they have to work even harder at overcoming barriers.
 
	I agree this is a wonderful opportunity for me to travel and see other
	places but I don't exactly see this as a pleasure trip at company's 
	expense. DEIL brings us here solely for business reasons and on each
	and every engineer DEIL brings here, it earns a whole lot of money.
	For instance, I am working with a DEC's customer for the past 6 months,
	to whom Digital has been charging $150 per hour for my services. Nobody
	expects me to perform any less because I come from a  "non western
	culture" and Digital certainly is not making any less money on me
	because I come from a "non western culture", then why does this 
	gentleman thinks that I should be treated any differently because I
	come from a "non western culture". This also is not a scenerio where
	Digital is doing any favours on us by giving us an opportunity to see
	other places and travel at companies expense.

	I agree DEIL has to try to deliver what they promise, just like any 
	other business anywhere in the world, but do you think they can 
	acheive this by being insensitive to human needs and by forcing people 
	to work for them. 

	I think every human being irrespective of his/her cultural or ethnic
	background, has a right to defend his basic human rights.

   
Manoj.

    Manoj,
    
    It seems like DEIL is a bad DEAL, both for DEC and for the DEIL
    engineers.
    
    Good luck to Suman and yourself!
    
    Greg

    I suspect the pregnancy clause is intended to keep the babies from
    becoming american citizens upon birth (as well as I remember, children
    born in the US of foreign parents are entitled to US citizenship), as 
    US citizens, the kids would be eligible for a slew of benefits from our
    social welfare system....
    
    Still, I think DEC and DEIL are screwing you and wish you the best.

    	Why should DEIL have any interest in the nationality of a baby? I
    didn't think they were in that sort of business. The U.S. immigration
    authorities are, but they are quite capable of setting and enforcing
    their own rules without help from DEIL.

    What's really sad about this policy is that is drives good people out
    of DEIL and out of DEC.  A loss for all of us.

    Re .-1
    
    I agree totally. Why is DEIL/DEC trying to drive good people away.
    
    Re .0. I really feel for your plight. Sounds like DEC/DEIL are really
    trying to screw you and your fellow employees with this policy. Why
    should DEIL have ANY say on whether your wife has a child in India
    or the USA? Do you know if this is due to any rules the US Government
    has forced upon DEIL? I can't understand why it would negatively impact
    DEIL for an employees wife to have a child. No regular US employee is
    faced with such a denial of a basic human right.
    
    When I watched the 60 minutes show on how HP was treating its Indian
    employees like slaves I thought to myself I wonder if DEC is doing the
    same thing with its DEIL employees. I thought surely not. Now I'm not
    so sure.
    
    As a manager I was recently given information on DEIL asking if I
    wanted to investigate utilizing DEIL people. Hearing this I think I'll
    pass. My conscience won't let me be a part of something that sanctions
    such a barbaric practice as that stated in .0 around pregnancies.
    
    Dave 

Re 2971.3, 2971.6
------------------

	Thanks a lot for your support Greg.

Re 2971.4
----------
	In case we give birth to a child in United States, he/she would have a
	choice to become either a U.S. or Indian citizen, at the age of 18 
	years. I don't think there are any other benefits from social security 
	before that, but I am not absolutely sure about this. Also I have been 
	paying the social security and all other normal taxes for the past four
	years, I have stayed in USA.


    Re 2971.7
    ---------    
>    Re .0. I really feel for your plight. Sounds like DEC/DEIL are really
>    trying to screw you and your fellow employees with this policy. Why
>    should DEIL have ANY say on whether your wife has a child in India
>    or the USA? Do you know if this is due to any rules the US Government
>    has forced upon DEIL? I can't understand why it would negatively impact
>    DEIL for an employees wife to have a child. No regular US employee is
>    faced with such a denial of a basic human right.
    
    
	I do not think that US government has forced any rules in these matters
	on DEIL. Other similar companies who bring people on projects, do allow 
	their wives to stay with them under these circumstances. The company I
	am going to join, is also sponsoring me for a non-immigrant H1 visa (
	similar to the one I now have through DEIL), but they don't have any
	objections in our staying together in US for the birth of our baby.

	I and my DEC manager have been discussing my case with DEIL management
	for the past three months. They haven't given us any reason for this 
	policy. Instead they have constantly threatened me of legal actions in 
	case I leave. I have tons of e-mails with me to support this.


  I thank everybody who has replied to this note.

Manoj.

    John Hancock does not insure Digital US Employees, Digital insures them. 
    John Hancock handles the administration. 

    There is a certain logic to the policy.  Digital has an interest in
    ensuring that DEIL employees are adequately covered to protect against
    a medical emergency.  A pregnancy is not an emergency.  The Indian
    government no doubt has a socialized medical system which is
    comprehensive and which, no doubt, is funded in part by taxes on DEIL
    income.  The company is probably just trying to avoid paying twice for
    a service.  I believe this sort of policy is neither unique to Digital 
    or India.

    Regarding the second item, if I understand it, the purpose is to avoid
    a situation where Digital/DEIL invests a tidy sum to train and place an
    individual in the US who then decides to use the opportunity to find a
    better job.  If the complaint is about the lack of symmetry in the
    relationship between DEIL/Digital and the employee, I can't think of a
    reason why the company should be obliged to provide it.  Given the
    costs of international travel, $4000 does not seem completely out of
    line.
    
    Although I sympathize with .0's plight, I just don't see the moral
    outrage.  The policies are known and the employee knows what the rules
    are before taking an overseas assignment.
    
    Al
    

As one of the DEIL Consultants myself, I would like to share some of my
opinions on the issues raised by Manoj.  While I concur with the pregnancy
issue with Manoj, I would consider the bond as a non-issue. 

Regards the pregnancy issue, it is a matter of togetherness during an important 
phase as childbirth, that requires the couple to be with each other and
this reason takes precedence over other priorities.  I am not aware of the 
complexities involved in relaxing their rules in this respect from DEIL 
management's perspective,  but if it is an easy task, I am for this change. 

As for signing a bond, almost every company stipulates a minimum obligation 
from the employee, and if in DEIL's case it is a bond for 1 year, I guess it is 
ok, as personally I would expect at least this much diligence from an
employee, and here we are talking of mutually beneficial business. I think for 
an employee who falls on either side of the deal, it would be judicious to make 
up his/her mind before they venture into such a deal, and choose what is best 
suited for them, to avoid future repercussions.

As for comparing DEIL to other consulting companies, I think it would be 
inappropriate to conclude one case in study as tantamount to standard industry
practices.  

With best wishes to Manoj,
    
    
Ramesh

    Reg 2791.0.
    
    A minor factual correction.
    
    DEIL does not pay for spouse's / family's travel as per Nov 1992
    policy. Assignee, if (s)he wishes, can bring any family member at
    his/her cost; DEIL will 'assist' in obtaining visa.
    
    [ It used to be so under the old policy which expired on 31-DEC-1992 ]
    
    Jayant Kumar
    DEIL, Hong Kong 
    
    

        
Re : Note 2791.9  
------------------
>    John Hancock does not insure Digital US Employees, Digital insures them. 
>    John Hancock handles the administration. 

>    There is a certain logic to the policy.  Digital has an interest in
>    ensuring that DEIL employees are adequately covered to protect against
>    a medical emergency.  A pregnancy is not an emergency.  The Indian
>    government no doubt has a socialized medical system which is
>    comprehensive and which, no doubt, is funded in part by taxes on DEIL
>    income.  The company is probably just trying to avoid paying twice for
>    a service.  I believe this sort of policy is neither unique to Digital 
>    or India.

	If DEIL doesn't want to pay for the pregnancy related costs, then 
	why don't they let me resign under these circumstances. I am not
	asking them to pay for these costs. Also, very early in my discussion
	with DEIL management, I offered to bear any additional costs myself.
	Expecting me to keep working in US under the agreement and my wife to
	go back to India for the birth, in my opinion, is not justified. 

	I am not absolutely sure about this, but I think John Hancock is the
	insurance company. Insurance companies charge a monthly premium 
	irrespective of whether we need their services or not. They, in turn
	cover the risk. My current insurance policy in US covers the pregnancy
	100%, and also as I mentioned in .0 I am paying an insurance premium
	per month. So if I am paying for that facility, why am I not allowed to
	use it. I think DEIL is also paying their part of the insurance premium
	per month and there is no additional cost to DEIL in allowing us to 
	give birth to our child in United States.


   Manoj.

    
    There is some mixing of apples and oranges in this discussion.
    First there are the two perhaps harsh conditions of the assignment
    and the issue of whether they should be conditions at all.  Second
    there is the issue of knowingly signing up for something that could
    lead to a *big* problem and then griping when that problem comes
    to pass.  I have lots of sympathy for the first case and none for
    the second.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    
    Re: .12
    
    > Expecting me to keep working in US under the agreement and my wife to
    > go back to India for the birth, in my opinion, is not justified. 
    
    There is one thing you have not made clear.  When you signed the
    agreement was it clear to you that if your wife were to become 
    pregnant while here is the US, that she would have to return to
    India to have your child *and* that you would be expected to remain
    in the US at work?  Did you sign it knowing this or didn't you?  If
    you did, I simply don't understand why you think it is not justified
    for them to expect that you would comply with what you had already
    agreed to.  If signed the agreement not understanding this, and there
    was no effort made by DEIL or DEC to be sure you understood this
    requirement then I think you have a reasonable argument.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

Any child born on US soil is a US citizen, like it or not. If the child
adopts dual citizenship (or some other citizenship) later, that's another
issue.

I suspect the policies are put in place by agreements between DEC and
the US immigration service before visas are issued. While the INS probably
doesn't care about DEC's insurance practices, it makes sure that *some*
policy is in effect that prevents little 'surprizes' from showing up.

re .15:

I suspect that the INS doesn't prevent pregnant tourists from visiting the
United States.  I don't see why they'd care if people with temporary work
visas (or whatever they're called) have babies in the U.S.

I'm also not convinced that all children born in the U.S. are automatically
U.S. citizens.  What about children of foreign diplomats?  I can't imagine
that the children of Cuban diplomats are U.S. citizens if they're born in
the U.S.

    
    
    	Can we hear officially from somebody in DEIL or DEC on the reasons
     	for the pregnancy policy?
    
    	John
    

    
    re .0  It would seem like your choices are few at this point. You
    signed an (apparently) legally binding contract that stated clearly
    enough that your wife WOULD return home at 6 months pregnant. The time
    has come for you to fulfill that part of your obligation.
    The only decision you have to make is whether you want to lose a months
    pay to be with your wife during the birth of your child, or whether you
    can take Paternity leave (we do give that now, right?) and go back to
    be with her during childbirth. It would seem that once the baby is
    born, he/she and your wife can be brought back into the US and you can
    continue with your consulting job.
    Maybe you can work out a short term leave type of thing if you do not 
    have paaternity leave or vacation available.
    
    On the subject of DEIL Consultants, I am curious as to why Digital is
    bringing in consultants from outside the US whiel TFSOing countless
    others becuase there is no work for them to do.....
    
    You wonder why unemployment is so high in this country.....

    My main comment and observation is this:  If you signed an agreement
    than you must honor it.  Pure and simply.  Although the agreement may
    seen unfair, you did sign it, right?  It is natural for you to want to
    be with your wife when your child is born.
    
    What are your alternatives??  
       1.  honor the contract by sending your wife back to India and
           you stay on and complete your work here.
    
       2.  resign (but you may be held for the $4,000 termination damages)
    
       3.  both of you return to India.
    
    Seems like # 1 is the only way to go.  I'd hate to see you hurt your
    reputation and future opportunities for work.  Think of the long term
    not the short term.  Think this out before you do anything.
    
    I wish you the best.
    
    

re .16

>I'm also not convinced that all children born in the U.S. are automatically
>U.S. citizens.  What about children of foreign diplomats?  I can't imagine

Check out the fourteenth amendment to the constitution. It's pretty clear
cut.

I have no idea what the circumstances are with diplomatic children. Perhaps
they're granted dual citizenship or some other agreement is made. Certain
pieces of property inside the US are considered to be part of the diplomat's
country while the diplomat is present... perhaps this comes into play.

   I don't think that the question is whether the contract is valid
   and whether it's ethical to seek remedies. The question as the title
   suggests is one of reviewing the policy itself. The question is
   whether the policy itself is fair. I don't think it's fair and
   long-term oriented. Of course, what else can you expect from DEC?
   And believe me, these are some of the most talented engineers I've
   seen. If DEIL treats them like this, there are plenty of other
   opportunities for them elsewhere in India and abroad.

   Nari 
   

>Check out the fourteenth amendment to the constitution. It's pretty clear
>cut.

I did, and I think it answers the question of diplomats:

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the
jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State
wherein they reside.

I believe diplomats are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.
So it seems that it's irrelevant to the base noter's dilemma.

    Honor that which is most important, and when it comes to a contract
    versus your wife and child, IMHO, the contract loses!  Your wife and
    child are not chattel to be consigned to written agreements.  Go home,
    take a break, and then immigrate to the US.  You've got talent and
    skills and many friends here.  Many others have done that very thing.
    
    Good luck and congratulations.
    
    Ws

    Ref .11
    
    	Get a copy of the new policy. DEIL does pay for spouse's / family's
    travel. 
    
    Sujit 
    

	Re. 0

	I was deeply impressed by the base note. Pregnancy and having childern
	is a human right. Forcing somebody to sign a contract like discribed
	would be illegal in Germany. Even if an employee signes such a contract
	there would no obligation in our country to fulfill it, because it's
	illegal. That has nothing to do with western or eastern culture, but
	only with human rights.

	I wish you all the best for you and your wife!


	Michael Wuensch

    re .25

    No one forced the basenoter to sign anything.  What's not clear from 0
    is whether his *wife* signed any such agreement.  If not then she's
    free to decide when and where she wants to have her baby.
    
    If she changes her mind and decides that she wants the best medical
    care she can get, and she believes that to be in the US, can the
    employer enforce a contract that is conditional upon the actions of a
    third party who is NOT bound by the terms of that contract?
    
    C

    

 
    Congratulations ..

    As Simon (2791.1) reply speaks, your first priority is to WAIT for 
    beautiful moment, which is due in three months. 
    
    As far as i know, the first DEIL Policy that was introduced from the 
    day-one the company started its export base in this country (USA) to
    what it is TODAY, there is a always change for good. In otherwords
    the DEIL policies did change and every change it only improved. 
    Hope you and everyone from DEIL will agree at this point. I think that is
    the way any company works and keeps refining its approach towards the
    employees, obviously within a stiplulated framework.

    As one of the reply (# 2791.10), correctly points, we are not "aware of
    the complexities involved in relaxing the rules" towards pregnancy coverage
    w.r.t to DEIL management. But, any change towards this by DEIL is most 
    welcome by everyone. 

    Husband & Wife being TOGETHER is extreamly important at the time of 
    delivery. But, its individuals  responsibility, how he/she works out 
    the priorities, knowing the the policy in-detail. 

    Iam kind of surprised the way you have analysed the DEIL policy at this
    point, which you could have done it way-back, when the policy was shown
    to you and probably could have thought of "WHAT IF ??" condition.
    There were feedback meetings after the policy was introduced, 
    there were a few amendments to the policy, based on the feedbacks given 
    by all our colleagues. So, i don't think, any of the policy points are
    debatable  at the time of leaving the company.
    
    Best of luck.. Hope everything will work out good for both of you.
    
    
    Bhaskar Rao K

Re : 2791.14
------------

>    There is one thing you have not made clear.  When you signed the
>    agreement was it clear to you that if your wife were to become
>    pregnant while here is the US, that she would have to return to
>    India to have your child *and* that you would be expected to remain
>    in the US at work?  Did you sign it knowing this or didn't you?  If
>    you did, I simply don't understand why you think it is not justified
>    for them to expect that you would comply with what you had already
>    agreed to.  If signed the agreement not understanding this, and there
>    was no effort made by DEIL or DEC to be sure you understood this
>    requirement then I think you have a reasonable argument.

	I was aware of the fact that my wife would have to go back to India
	in case she were to become pregnant, but I wasn't aware of the fact
	that DEIL would still expect me to remain in US. DEIL, in the past 
	have allowed their employees to shorten their assignments under 
	certain circumstances since a clause to that effect has been provided
	in the contract.

	I would also like to mention here again, that we do not have an option
	to sign this contract. Faced with a choice between either sign the 
	contract or lose your job, I think anyone would have signed it. 

	I know, I have signed the contract and if a court of law finds this bond
	legal, I will happily pay. But I don't think it is justified under the
	given circumstances.

	Also, these policies are general guidelines, created by the people like 
	me and you, to insure that nobody should take undue advantage of the 
	company. DEIL has changed its policy every year, for the past four
	years I have been on the export projects. In my opinion policies
	should constantly be reviewed and modified for the good of both 
	company and the employees and exceptions should be made to these 
	policies in case of special problems. 

	I have been requesting DEIL management for the past three months that I 
	have a genuine problem and that I need to be with my wife for the 
	delivery of our child. But DEIL has chosen to remain insensitive to the
	whole issue during all our correspondence as is clear from the enclosed
	mail :

 
 
From:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR "GAUTAM KHEDEKAR" Digital India F&A  17-Nov-1993 1826" 17-NOV-1993 18:35:00.19
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	ASHOK,DINESH,KHEDEKAR
Subj:	Contract with DEIL


Hi Manoj,

This is in response to your attached mail on the above subject. Let me explain.

The assignees who signed the contracts before January 01,1993 could terminate
their assignments for whatever reasons by giving one month's notice. Majority 
of them had already finished 6-8 months on their assignments and they signed up
for an additional period of 6-8 months as applicable. 
All assignees who signed their contracts effective January 01,1993 are expected
to be on their assignments for a period of one year from the date they sign 
the contract which in your case starts in March 93 and ends in March 94.

We have considered your request for reducing the term of your assignment and 
regret to state that we will not be in a position to do so. We would again
request you to continue on your current assignment or else we will have
no other option but to enforce the penalties as explained in the terms of the 
contract.

Regards

Khedekar 



From:	SYOMV::DHAWAN "17-Nov-1993 0909" 17-NOV-1993 09:53:39.64
To:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR
CC:	AKOCOA::PEREIRA,AKOCOA::DMAHESHWARY,SYOMV::DHAWAN
Subj:	RE: Contract with DEIL

Hi Khedekar,
	Thanks for your response yesterday.

	I understand now that it is my fault to not read the agreement properly
before signing it. But this happened because of the following two reasons.
1.  I was always under the impression that this contract can be terminated by
either parties on giving a month's notice, as we were made to believe at the
time this TIA policy was presented to us in Oct-Nov,92.
2.  I was not aware of the fact that DEIL signs diferent contracts with 
different employees. I am still not sure why, when everything else was same, 
DEIL signed a different contract with me than it signed with others like 
S.D.Sharma. 
	The purpose of this mail though, is not to discuss this but to propose a
solution.
	Point number 2 of the contract which was signed between DEIL and me, 
also states that "Digital may reduce the term of Consultant's assignment to 
Digital for cause." . As DEIL is well aware of the fact that my wife is now
six months pregnant and we are expecting a baby in Feb,94. According to DEIL's
policy my wife has to go back to India for delivery. I think DEIL will unders-
tand that it is my responsibility to take care of my wife and my choice to be
with her during this time and when our first child is born. Besides, nobody in
India can take care of her at this time.
	Considering these circumstances, I would like to request DEIL to reduce
the term of my assignment to Digital and releive me by the end of this month.
I have also spoken to DEC's manager, who I report to,  and he is 
willing to cooperate with me on this, as Ashok Pereira and Suneel Deshpande are
aware of. He mentioned having a discussion with Ashok and Suneel about working
on a replacement for me. The project I am working on right now is on a stage,
where a replacement right away, would not be an absolute necessity.
	In my opinion this solution will workout well for both DEIL and me.
Please let me know what DEIL management thinks about this.

Thanks for your time,
Manoj Dhawan.

    re .26: I have to agree with .25 - I don't know US laws, but I'm pretty
    sure the contract wouldn't stand a chance in a court of law in most
    European countries.
    
    If a contract is illegal, signing it (voluntarily or not) doesn't make
    it legal. As I said I don't know whether this type of contract would be
    deemed illegal in the U.S. but I certainly find it immoral, limiting a
    person's basic human rights (for no apparent reson).
    

    One other option I've thought of since I wrote my first reply is
    taking the issue to Win Hindle, VP of Ethics.
    
    		Alfred

    I'd take/send:
    	a copy of the contract,
    	a copy of the correspondence and
    	a copy of the recently published Digital Statement of Core Values
    	 to Win Hindle and ask him to arbitrate.
    
    Good luck

Re: 2791.30, 2791.31
---------------------
>    I'd take/send:
>    	a copy of the contract,
>    	a copy of the correspondence and
>    	a copy of the recently published Digital Statement of Core Values
>    	 to Win Hindle and ask him to arbitrate.
>    
>    Good luck

	Thanks a lot for the suggestion. I have found out Win Hindle's internal
	mail address and will send 
		a copy of the contract
		a copy of the DEIL policy
		all my correspondance with DEIL management, so far
	
	Can anybody tell me how and where to find a copy of the Digital 
    	Statement of Core Values.

Manoj.	
                  

    What would be wrong with finding someone in Canada for your wife to
    stay with during her last three months of confinement?  We are fairly
    close to some of the bordering areas and you could take vacation time
    and be there for the birth?  Would probably cost you the same/less 
    than the cost of airfare back to India and the medical conditions 
    would be more on a par with the US of A.  

    Just something else to consider if your contract states that she has
    to get out of the STATES!  I hope you do well with Win Hindle route
    though.  

    

Re: .28
    
    > I was aware of the fact that my wife would have to go back to India
    > in case she were to become pregnant, but I wasn't aware of the fact
    > that DEIL would still expect me to remain in US. DEIL, in the past 
    > have allowed their employees to shorten their assignments under 
    > certain circumstances since a clause to that effect has been provided
    > in the contract.

    Let me be clear that, for me at least, I am in sympathy with your
    situation and would likely feel as you do if I were in your position.
    I quite agree that your wife and child come first with Digital a
    distant second at best.
    
    You've added some information that you didn't offer before.  It seems
    that you were considering this assignment and made your decision to
    accept it just at the time when DEIL made some changes to the standard
    employment contract and you were not aware of the effect of those
    changes.  If DEIL did not make a clear effort to ensure that all 
    contracts effective as of January '93 had requirements that were new,
    then I think you have a legitimate gripe.
    
    What I was sensitive to, however, is the issue of having signed a
    contract.  There seems to be an epidemic in America where people think
    they can go ahead and dance and when it comes time to pay the fiddler
    someone else will write the check.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

       Re .15:

>I suspect the policies are put in place by agreements between DEC and
>the US immigration service before visas are issued.

        ... and the INS supposedly reflects the wishes of Congress,
        and Congress supposedly reflects the wishes of the citizens
        of the U.S.


        Re .18:

>    On the subject of DEIL Consultants, I am curious as to why Digital is
>    bringing in consultants from outside the US whiel TFSOing countless
>    others becuase there is no work for them to do.....

        Indeed.  This might be a holdover from long-term contracts
        created in earlier, better times.


        Re .21:

>   And believe me, these are some of the most talented engineers I've
>   seen. If DEIL treats them like this, there are plenty of other
>   opportunities for them elsewhere in India and abroad.

        Quite right, our future competition, at least.


        Are DEIL consultants under the jurisdiction of the U.S., in the
        sense of the 14th amendment?  If not, from the viespoint of U.S.
        citizens, it hardly matters where DEIL employees' families have
        their babies.  If so, I should expect DEIL employees to be eager
	to ensure Indian citizenship for their children.

        Didn't DEIL's lawyers anticipate pregnancies?  It's puzzling that
        the contract imposes such disruption when the solution is so easy:
        take paternity leave, return to India, have your baby, return to
        the U.S., finish your assignment, return to India as originally
        planned.  DEIL ought to hire better lawyers.

        By the way, that $4000 sounds like a nifty bargain.  Wouldn't 
        actual costs probably approach $20000 - $40000.  If I were 
        younger, I'd try for a similar deal in reverse.  Is India hiring?

        Regards, Robert.

    Has .0 reviewed the US Labor Dept H1-B visa rules that Digital must
    obey in order to grant the transfer in the first place?  There might
    be something in there that Digital is only following and has no
    control over.

    Re. 2791.36
    ------------
    
    I have reviewed the US labour Dept H1-B rules and it is not mentioned
    anywhere that an H1B worker can't have babies in US. It mentions that
    the maximum duration of an H1-B visa is six years. It also allows the 
    spouse of an H1-B worker to stay with him/her under H4 (dependent)
    visa.
    
    Besides, I think if there was any such regulation from any of the US
    government agency, DEIL management would have been the first one to
    respond to this note. 
    
    Manoj.
    

    After quickly scanning through this string of replies (on a well
    deserved coffee break -)), I don't see any recommendations that the
    basenoter talk to a lawyer, preferably one with experience in
    international legal issues.  Anyone who says that the ball game is over
    when the papers are signed is slinging a lot of camel dung.  Talk to a
    lawyer.  There are too many angles to this issue to get competent
    advice in this file.
    
    Having said that, now I'll give you my own advice.  If you can afford
    to (and you'll have a better idea of this after seeing the lawyer), do
    not miss the birth of your baby.  Compared to the experience of being
    present for the birth of mine, the rest of my life has little meaning.
    
    Good luck,
    Tony

    I think that we are all in agreement that any father is really missing 
    a lot if he is not present for the birth of his child.   I know that it
    is the best and most spectacular thing that I have ever witnessed.
    The policy regarding pregnancy as stated in .0 is just plain unfair.
    
    As far as Manoj and his situation it it not up for me to decide.  I
    would say that he has a reasonably good case, based on what he has tols
    us, and that he should be allowed to witness the birth of his child in
    the USA.
    
    My advice to you Manoj is no matter what is costs you, be there, ok?
    
    re .18:  I know that the DEIL engineers I have been involved with have
    been extremely hard working and very talented people.  I am not clear
    on why certain folks are TFSOed while we continue to get DEIL
    contractors.  I don't know the skills of the people who are bein
    TFSOed, as opposed to the people who are leaving because they are "fed
    up" or frustrated with Digital. I think it is probably a question of
    skills that are needed vs. skills that aren't needed.

    My advice, based on talking with both of them, is to try to talk with
    John Buckley (Ethics Office ops mgr) about this issue, rather than
    trying to talk with Win Hindle (VP of ethics).  Leaving aside all other
    issues, Win has many things that he does instead of ethics, whereas
    ethics is John Buckley's whole job.
    
    	Best of Luck,
    	Larry

    re: 0

    IMPORTANT QUESTION: Did your wife sign the contract?

    If she did not, she is not a party to the contract, the contract is
    irrelevant to her and therefore not binding on her so she can ignore
    it.

    In the US a woman is not under her husband's legal control or
    guardianship. A woman has the legal status of an adult, not a child and
    is presumed to be competent to act on her own behalf. Any portion of a
    contract a husband signs that would obligate his wife to anything is
    absolutely unenforcable on her if she does not also sign the contract.
    (Unless the husband has power of attorney for her which is unlikely -
    you'd know it if you did.)

    My advice for what its worth, assuming your wife did not sign anything,
    is to continue working for DEIL in the US and support your wife in any
    decision she makes. Conform to the contract as much as you are able.
    Nobody, including you, has any power to force your wife to do anything
    she did not herself agree to do.

    re. -1
    
    Could not agree more!
    
    No contract can override the constitution of the U.S. Your wife has
    all the normal protection of anyone living under U.S. law. Even in
    the unlikely event that your wife signed the contract, it is highly
    improbable that such a contract would be enforceable.
    
    Don't take my opinion for granted, go ASAP to consult an ACLU attorney.
    I can sympathize with you, being myself an immigrant and also having a
    young child. I cannot imagine a company being cold-hearted enough to
    want to separate a husband and wife at such an important and unique
    event in a relationship.
    
    Please feel free to contact me offline if you need moral support or
    want to discuss the whole immigration experience (H-1, etc...)
    
    Best of luck,
    
    Patricia Mathieu.
    DTN 531-4437

    re. -1, -2
    ----------
    
    Thanks a lot for the suggestion.
    
    My wife did not sign anything and thus I agree that I can't force her
    to do anything. But She is on an H4 (dependent) visa. In this case if
    my sponsorship through DEIL is revoked, her visa will also automatically 
    become invalid.

    Some of the replies in this string amaze me:
    
    1. Send the mother to Canada.
    
    Well, what did the citizens of Canada do to warrant making them a party
    to this dispute?  Why don't people who are so concerned about morals
    and ethics see the blatant opportunism of spending another country's
    wealth while contributing nothing in return (in fact, planning to
    hightail it out of the country after the medical bills are paid)?
    
    2.  Contact the ACLU.
    
    Whatever happened to personal responsibility?  The base noter is not
    threatened by a government entity with incarceration.  He has a dispute
    with a private enterprise. He has an unpleasant choice to make, but then 
    the choice to have a family was his as well (and a precursor to his
    current situation).  He may buy his way out his contract by reimbursing 
    Digital for the out-of-pocket expenses involved in bringing him over 
    here.  $4000 does not sound unreasonable given the price of airfare 
    from India to the US and the opportunity costs.  Even if it is high, it 
    certainly isn't off by an order of magnitude.
    
    3.  Basic Human Rights
    
    Perhaps as a result of growing up in the barbarous frontier culture of
    the USA, I've never viewed as a basic human right any activity which 
    entails the compulsory expropriation of someone else's property in
    order to exercise it.  The base noter has the right to put his family
    first and the obligation to accept the responsibilities that ensue. It's 
    certainly not clear that someone else (Digital) has an unconditional 
    obligation to facilitate his choice.
    
    
    Like I mentioned earlier, there is no free lunch.  John Hancock isn't
    spreading the costs of a childbirth and the risks of complications 
    over all it's customers; Digital is picking up the tab (and assuming
    the risks) directly.  I'm sure that part of what makes DEIL
    competetive is that planned major healthcare costs (like pregnancies)
    are covered by the Indian government as part of their healthcare
    system.  If Digital, as a matter of routine, were to pay for
    comprehensive, unconditional healthcare for DEIL contractors, there
    would be a considerable financial disincentive to use such sources.
    We'd either use US employees or, more likely, simply not make the
    investments.  Who would be served by this?  Choice is good, even when
    people occasionally get put into a bad situation because they made the 
    wrong one.
    
    As the father of four children, I empathize with the base noters
    plight.  But I still fail to see the case for moral or ethical
    impropriety on the part of Digital.  Perhaps a workable compromise is
    to put more discretion into the hands of the US managers who are the
    'customers' of DEIL.  As a Digital Consulting manager, I get to manage
    people problems like this all the time.  If the local manager is able
    to accomodate and manage around the situation described by the base
    noter, give them the discretion of letting the contractor return to
    India (at his expense) for the childbirth without invoking the penalty.
    
    Al
    
    

 You asked for the Core Values statement to go with your contract and the mass 
 of correspondence...
 
 Luckily I'd saved it from when it appeared on VTX Livewire:-

 Digital - Bob Palmer initiates Digital's values discussion
    {Livewire, Worldwide News, 1-Nov-93}
 
    Digital President and CEO Bob Palmer and the Senior Leadership Team have 
 articulated a set of company core values that will be the basis for a 
 companywide discussion starting today.
    Bob said, "The companywide discussion we are embarking on today is the 
 first step in an ongoing process of many months and years.  Our objective for 
 these initial discussions is to allow us all to take the time to focus on the 
 values which many agree are of essential importance to us.  It's important 
 that we look at these values as statements of where we aspire to be.  While we 
 have a long way to go in some areas, I expect us to start making progress 
 now."
 
    Following is the statement of Digital's core values.    
 
    The objectives of the enterprise are:
 
 o  to develop long-term and mutually beneficial relationships with our 
    customers by understanding their business goals and needs and providing 
    them with high quality, innovative business solutions, products and 
    services.
           
 o  to create and sustain an environment for all employees in which we treat 
    each other with respect and value our individual and cultural differences; 
    communicate honestly and openly; reward excellence as essential to company 
    success; develop our capabilities and continually learn. 
 
 o  to honor the investment decision of our shareholders by managing for 
    profitability and growth through the delivery of innovative customer 
    solutions, products and services.
           
                            Core Values
       
    Integrity.  We choose to be honest in all our business interactions and 
 transactions and remain steadfast when challenged.
       
 o  We are, first and foremost, honest in all our dealings: with one another, 
    with customers, business partners, investors, suppliers and the communities 
    in which we operate.  
 
 o  We are not only honest in the technical sense of the word, but also seek       
    to ensure that the impressions we leave are accurate. 
  
 o  We hold ourselves to the highest level of ethical conduct and 
    conscientiously avoid activity that creates even the appearance of any 
    conflict of interest.
       
    Respect for the Individual.  We show respect for everyone by what we say 
 and do and value our diverse global workforce.
 
 o  We treat one another with mutual respect.  Our actions, our behaviors and 
    attitudes consistently demonstrate our respect for the dignity and worth of 
    each individual.  
  
 o  We maintain a work environment that seeks out and values the insight, 
    experience, contribution, and full participation of all employees.  
  
 o  We are committed to understanding, valuing and maintaining a diverse 
    workforce that reflects and responds to the diversity of our customers and 
    our markets.
 
    Excellence.  We excel at everything we do.  We strive aggressively for the 
 highest standard of quality to achieve superior value for our customers. 
       
 o  We never compromise in our quest for excellence, customer satisfaction, and 
    company success.  
  
 o  We link excellence with consistently and profitably delivering value to our 
    customers.   
  
 o  We aim to be the best and excel in every area in which we choose to focus 
    our attention.  We will settle for nothing less.  
 
    Accountability.  We own up to our words and actions. When we commit to do 
 something, we do it -- decisively, responsibly and with urgency so that others  
 can rely on us consistently.
       
 o  We exercise care in formulating and meeting our commitments to customers 
    and to each other. 
  
 o  We understand that others rely on our commitments and expect us to meet 
    them.  When we make commitments to customers, to fellow employees and to 
    others, we take personal responsibility for fulfilling those commitments. 
    We immediately inform others when we are unable to meet a commitment.  
 
 o  We accept the consequences of our own performance, behavior and words at 
    all times.  
       
    Teamwork.  We work together, energized by our collective talent.  We listen  
 to, trust, share with, and empower team members.  We use data to move beyond 
 individual opinions to rapid decisions and effective implementation.
       
 o  We maintain open, honest dialogue at all levels of the company. 
  
 o  We understand vigorous, constructive dialogue is an essential element in 
    building effective work teams and the best way to ensure our ability to 
    create and deliver high-quality business solutions for our customers.  
  
 o  When a decision is made and a company goal is established, we work 
    collaboratively with others to meet that goal.  
  
 o  We recognize that these company goals are primary and above group or 
    individual goals.
       
    Innovation.  We encourage and value creative solutions to customer needs. 
 We are fearless in expressing unique ideas and taking actions that will 
 generate successful customer solutions.
 
 o  We value and encourage innovation and creativity.  
  
 o  We make elegant and successful use of existing and new techniques to create 
    new business solutions, products and services for our customers' 
    requirements.  
  
 o  We open up and develop profitable markets where we have leadership.  
  
 o  We are empowered to take intelligent risks after carefully weighing 
    potential hazards and benefits to the company.  
 
 o  We reward success and expect everyone to learn from those attempts that are 
    not successful despite our best efforts.
       
    Customer Success.  We help our customers achieve their business goals 
 through information systems knowledge, industry expertise, networking skills 
 and consulting.  We strive always to outdistance the competition in customer 
 satisfaction.
       
 o  We are committed to having the most satisfied customers worldwide. 
 
 o  We support and assist our customers to be successful in their own 
    competitive environment through innovative business solutions, information 
    systems knowledge, industry expertise, networking skills and consulting.  
  
 o  All of our efforts and decisions are relentlessly focused on maximizing our 
    ability to understand and respond to their needs and expectations.

    
    Re: .45
    
    With due respect to your differing view, this is how I see your
    position:  Sign any contract you like, get the benefit of it,
    but if it becomes inconvenient or there's some consequence that
    doesn't suit you, look for some way to wriggle out of it and
    leave the other party to the contract holding the bag.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    You really should consult a lawyer or two. The visa stuff alone is a
    tangled mess, and if the contract was signed in India or is with DEIL
    rather than DEC things could be even weirder.
    
    You mentioned you were on an H visa? When I relo'd it was an L visa;
    the H class was for tourism and brief business visit. Of course the
    rules may have changed since then, but if not there may have been some
    arrangment with INS to allow the use of H visas. Actually, if you're
    technically working for DEIL, that may be the loophole for using an H
    visa. Regardless, if your spouse is on a visa that is dependant upon
    yours, she will lose her visa if you lose yours. 
    
    On an H visa, INS can require you to show that you can support yourself
    before admitting you to the country and again that may have been a
    factor in the visa process. Remember too that a visa is not a guarantee
    for entry.
    
    There also regulations about extraditing a foreign national that can
    show close family ties to a US citizen and being the parents of a US
    citizen may be sufficient (and your child will be a US citizen if
    he/she is born here).
    
    The visa stuff is a real mess.
    
    gary

re .44:

>   Like I mentioned earlier, there is no free lunch.  John Hancock isn't
>   spreading the costs of a childbirth and the risks of complications 
>   over all it's customers; Digital is picking up the tab (and assuming
>   the risks) directly.

In .12 the base noter says he's not asking JH/Digital to foot the bill.
On the other hand, considering the cost of childbirth (particularly if
there are complications), the $4000 penalty is a bargain.

    
    
      Re .47
    
      Surely you must recognize the difference between a 'contract'
    an an 'unconscionable bargain'...
    
    
    						-a
    

Hi,
        I would like to thank everybody for their suggestions, support and 
        thoughts about my situation. I also thank people who have been 
        talking to me off line about this. I really have got some good 
        suggestions out of this discussion and a tremendous amount of moral
        support. I hope DEIL management also gives a more serious thought 
        about these kinds of situations and reviews its policies more closely 
        in the interest of its employees and the business.

        I have decided to leave the company and as per my notice of
        resignation to DEIL on 5th of November, today is my last day. So, I
        will not be able to reply to any of the questions raised in this
        conference after 5 PM today.

        I would also like to mention here that I am fully aware of the fact,
        that it was I who signed the contract irrespective of the 
        circumstances. I have no intentions of dishonouring what I said
        or signed. If it is decided by the court of law that I owe $4000 to
        DEIL, I will most certainly pay.

        I just feel that it is not justified and I am being victimized and
        forced to leave DEIL. I sincerely hope that I am the last one and 
        the things will change for good.
       
        Following are some of the suggestions/questions given to me offline :

        1. What if the wife of a DEIL employee is a
                a) Green Card holder or a US citizen 
                b) student in US
                c) temporary H1-B worker working with some other company who
                   does not object to giving births in US.
           Will or Can DEIL force its employee to send his wife to India 
           under the similar circumstances.

        2. DEIL sends its people to export projects in many other countries 
           like Japan, Singapore, HongKong, Australia, NewZealand, Canada,
           and European countries. The Engineers there do not have to sign any 
           such contract before starting his/her assignment. Why are the 
           people who come to US, being descriminated ?

I thank everybody for their time and listening to me.

Manoj Dhawan.
                                               

    
    Re: .50
    
    I expect I could understand the difference.  I infer that
    'unconscionable bargain' is a specific term.  What does it mean?
    
    Steve
    

    
      re .47
    
    In this case, you define my position correctly. However, I would like
    to review a few facts. The base noter got the benefits of the
    contract (presumably working in the U.S.), but so did the corporation.
    They are charging for his time and presumably they did not bring him to
    this country solely out of the goodness of their hearts. H-1 visas are
    issued to professionals who bring outstanding value to this country -
    that's how the INS defines it. So presumably this country also benefited
    from the individual's contribution. So far so good, everybody is happy.
    
    Now his wife is pregnant, and she is told to go back home. Why? Is it
    fair? Is it right? or is it just because the contract says so? who gets
    hurt by his wife having a baby here? He has been paying taxes, he has
    been paying into the health insurance. The only difference betwee his
    status and mine, for example, is the fact that he has a different
    immigration visa. When he signed the contract, four years ago (is that
    right?), who knows, he might have thought he never wanted kids, he
    might have been told that it was a six months job. We are not talking
    about a business agreement, we are talking about a commercial contract
    that tells people how to run their personal lives. Remember when air
    stewardesses had to be single? Was that not contested in court? They
    too had signed contracts, but a court of law said that it had to be
    changes (at least I think that's what happened if I'm wrong, you still
    can see what I mean). 
    
    I am profoundly shocked by the human side of the
    dilemma. I have a 2 year old, and if my husband had told me, when I was
    six months pregnant "sorry dear, you got to go back to France because I
    signed a piece of paper" I would have told him " and what type of #$%^@
    paper was that, what has  your company got to do with the life I am
    carrying, etc... etc...". Surely this is not hard to see. I can sign a
    piece of paper saying that I agree to become a slave, that does not
    make the piece of paper legal.
    
    Anyway, this discussion could go on forever, I think I have tried
    to make what I think clear, and I will bail now out of  the
    "personal responsibility" discussion, because I am not a great one for
    public forums.
    
    Happy thanksgiving to everybody!
    
    Patricia.
    

	The "you get pregnant, you go home" clause in the basenoter's
	contract might arise from the anti-immigration feeling the
	newspapers tell us is growing in this country.  

	A hundred years ago, when industrialists were desperately 
	grabbing labor anywhere, it was a lot easier to admit foreigners 
	and grant citizenship.  Nowadays, the country's economy is 
	tightening, the country's population is high, and we are 
	questioning old immigration policies.  (Does anyone know what 
	happened to immigration policies during the Depression?)

	It's difficult to say anything intelligent, for those of us who
	haven't read the contract, and who don't know how Digital, DEIL,
	and the U. S. interact.  But in light of today's sentiments,
	even the ACLU might find the contract a difficult nut to crack.

	Obviously, the basenoter's family comes first.  After all, jobs
	are a lot easier to find than families.  In any case, on this 
	go-round, it appears that the basenoter's family's wellbeing has 
	been separated from the U.S.A.


	Regards, Robert.

    
    Re: .53
    
    > Now his wife is pregnant, and she is told to go back home. Why? Is it
    > fair? Is it right? or is it just because the contract says so?  who gets
    > hurt by his wife having a baby here?
    
    For the record, I am in sympathy with this person.  It is unfortunate
    that he felt he had to quit his job to meet his family's need.  I
    wouldn't wish that on him and if it were me administrating that
    contract I would have looked for a way to accomodate him within the
    terms of the contract if I could have.
    
    That said, contracts are not about fairness.  They are about the law
    and what the parties agree to.  The law also is not about fairness.
    It is about the law.  There are all kinds of things which come of
    contracts which may not seem fair, but fairness is not one of the
    criteria.  I have a close friend who has a lien against his house
    because of a contract he signed.  To me the entire thing is unfair,
    but in court the judge asked two questions:  Did you sign this contract
    willingly?  Did you understand that the issue at hand could result? 
    Once he'd answered yes to both the judge found for the other party
    and that was that.  It took about five minutes.
    
    > When he signed the contract, four years ago (is that right?), who
    > knows, he might have thought he never wanted kids, 
    
    OK, if he changed his mind on that should that mean that he doesn't
    have to live up to his agreement?
    
    > We are not talking about a business agreement, ...
    
    Absolutely we are.
    
    > we are talking about a commercial contract that tells people how to
    > run their personal lives. 
    
    There are all kinds of contracts that tell us how to run our commercial
    lives.  Look at your employment agreement.  That is a contract between
    you and Digital.  It says that anything you might develop while working
    for Digital that has to do with Digital's business is owned by Digital.
    Is that fair?  I don't know but it stands up in court and it's made
    clear to you when you sign the agreement.
    
    > I am profoundly shocked by the human side of the dilemma. I have a
    > 2 year old, and if my husband had told me, when I was six months
    > pregnant "sorry dear, you got to go back to France because I signed
    > a piece of paper" I would have told him " and what type of #$%^@
    > paper was that, what has  your company got to do with the life I am
    > carrying, etc... etc...". Surely this is not hard to see. 
    
    Exactly, which is why I would never sign such an agreement in the
    first place.
    
    Steve
    

    Let's see, the base note was entered on Nov 20.  In his last entry he
    stated that he resigned on Nov 5 and today is his last day.  I'm left
    wondering why the base note was entered if he had already sent in his
    letter of resignation?
    
    What was/is the point?
    
    Marv
    

                     <<  WITH MALICE TO NONE >>

I am responding to this note on behalf of Digital Equipment (India) Limited.

At the outset I would like to thank all of you who have responded to this
note for your views on the subject.

Thru this note I would like to address the issue of "Fairness vs Unfairness"
than the legalities.

I am not sure "Quoting of clauses" from a private contract out of context and
inviting a public debate is construed as FAIR.

The policy is drafted with all good intentions and keeping the larger interest
of the business enterprise, which in turn is a collection of all the employees
of the organization.  There could and will be instances (like the case in the 
point), where what is good for the goose is not necessarily good for the 
gander.  

The issue of the spouse giving birth to a child in United States would have 
been a non-issue if it were not related to the business environment in which
the enterprise  operates.  And hence the issue can not and should not be
viewed in isolation.

To illustrate further - walk into any shop and we are monitored by the cameras. 
Does it not mean all of us are treated with suspicion and that "all of us are
guilty unless proven otherwise", which is contrary to what the constitution
professes.  But it is not illegal and we do not contest the same in a court.
Because we understand and appreciate that there is price to pay for freedom.

This part of the policy is framed based on our understanding and interpretation
of the expectation from the Immigration authorities.  The intent of the program
is that the engineers come here to work on various projects and return to India
to transfer their knowledge benefiting the company.  So the underlying
assumption is that the duration is for a short term and the intent is not to
stay here for long.

While I hate to comment on the practices of other companies, there are companies
who are in similar business and share the same understanding and some who do
not.  I wish to add that citing somebody who has gone scotfree does not justify
our following the path.  

Our path is guided by our understanding of the needs of our employees and our
commitments to the environment we operate within.  And we do not want to be
found wanting in our compliance of the same.  As has been the case in the past
and will remain to be in future, we do review our policies with open mind from 
time to time to reflect the changing times and needs.

To set the record straight, the company's policy is a document available to 
all the employees of the company, and none of the employees are coerced into 
coming to USA.  And the company's policy on this issue has not changed since
the time this employee has come to USA.  In essence the employee has the 
option of staying back and not coming to USA and still remain as an employee 
with DEIL.

The employee is allowed to take leave and proceed to the place of birth
during the delivery period, and this is explicity stated and well within the
policy.

It is equally painful for this company to lose its employees especially after 
having invested so much in the training and other expenses. 

To summarize, we are addressing this issue from the "Fairness" point of view
and not from legal aspect, and in our view, this instance is more a case of
breach of faith than contract.

If anyone feels our interpretation and understanding is not correct can directly
send their inputs to me, which will help us in reframing the policy, if the 
need be so.

Chandrasekhar Nandula
Resource Manager
DTN : 244-6020

As of way introduction, I am a Digital India employee, joined almost three 
years ago, working on a project at a Digital US location. I don't know the base 
noter well enough, but I better understand his predicament as we both are 
subject to same set of policies/rules.

I agree with the base noter on several things. In my opinion, there are many 
things that are not 'conducive' for personal and professional growth in the 
DEIL 'policy'. But, at every stage, we all had our options to call it 
'quits', pack up and leave this place. Many of my best friends who are also
*very* good in their job left the company for similar reasons.

At the same time, many of us have seen DEIL change its policies for better in 
the last 3 years and we have chosen to continue our work hoping things would 
only get better. The excitement of work, new work culture, and an opportunity 
to learn new technologies at Digital US and see this part of the world are 
some of the reasons why some of us decided to continue our employment.

DEIL, like any other company is in the 'business' and making money is one of the
objectives (not to be confused with a non-profit organization). There is
considerable expense/work involved in getting an employee from its Indian 
operation to US site for a project.  There are commitments made at different 
levels of the organizations, govt. agencies involved and not just between the 
base noter and his employer.
In my opinion, every employee must understand that the company has invested 
a definite amount of resources to get him/her here, the project leader of 
Digital US has invested resources and has work scheduled for this employee 
under the assumption he/she would be working for a certain specified period 
of time. 

I am *not* saying the policy is correct, but only that the base noter knew what
he is getting in to by signing a contract. He is in a situation that probably
he could have controlled at an earlier stage. 
In my opinion, two decisions were made, the second decision made after the 
first one conflicted with his first one.
I think if there was a family emergency at home in India, DEIL would have let 
this employee go, not concerned about other things (like the project, 
deadlines etc). I am not of the view that DEIL is treating its employees badly, 
though I do think that I don't have as much freedom as I would have had if 
I were working at a location in India (may be due to Visa, etc regulations)

I would like to see people stand up for their decisions. That's what being an 
'adult' is all about or am I wrong?

/Sekher Seshadri
            

    Again a key point people seem to be ignoring: His wife did not sign the
    contract. He has no power to contractually obligate his wife to do
    anything. He has no power under US law to SEND his wife anywhere. The
    most he may do is REQUEST that she go somewhere. She can refuse.
    
    That part of the contract is therefore legal noise.

Hi all, [Mainly the ones that sympathise with the base noter's cause]

   I am a Digital (India) employee.

   Let us get a few things straight here.

   The base noter has been on overseas assignment in the US the last 4 years.
   This has not been without any interruption. He got a break and spent a few 
   months in India during this period. His current assignment is supposed to
   be a fresh one, just a few months old.

   The concept of signing a bond was not in place till 92 end. Mass exodus of
   of DE(I)L personnel at an alarming rate forced the company to take such
   measures. The company has an establishment here and has certain overheads
   for the kind of business they do here. They just can't afford to bring in
   people into this country and see them vanish in a month or two. Hence some
   strict clauses and a bond. The vanishing act does'nt happen in other
   countries and hence no bonds. The basenoter mentioned the issue of different
   bonds for different people. This how it is - people who had already completed
   10-12 months of assignment before Dec 92 where allowed the one month notice 
   option and those that started the assigment after Dec 92 did'nt have this 
   option. This is becos the company expects the assignee to be on an assignment 
   for a minimum period of atleast a year. People can go back in case of an
   emergency and the company pays the airfare. 

   DE(I)L's policy of asking the spouses to go back in case of pregnancy has
   been in effect for a long time. The base noter did'nt have the inclination
   and time to start a debate on this issue, all these days. The company has 
   it's own reasons for such policies and it could be cultural also. The base 
   noter did'nt mention instances where the company has helped him a lot. I 
   don't want to bring it up here 'coz this seems to be an instance of 'sour 
   grapes'. He should abide by the terms of the bond that he signed and quit 
   in a gracious manner. Bringing up the issue after he has resigned is 
   unethical - plain and simple. And the kind of debate that he wanted is not 
   a healthy one. There are better ways and means to put one's point across. 

   DE(I)L management does review its policies time to time and tries to 
   accomodate the needs of its personnel. They have not been found wanting
   in this regard.

   Though my sympathies are not with him, best wishes to the couple.
   
/Bharani

	Re. .59

	I think you missed the part about H4 visa status of the basenoter's
	wife. When she applied for it (yes, she must have signed that
	application), it was with the understanding that if his H1-B becomes
	invalid for some reason, so does her H4 status. He can not force her
	to do anything, but the US govt. can. 

    
    I sent the attached to Chandrasekhar Nandu in response to his request
    for input in .57. As you can see I feel strongly on the "pregnancy"
    issue.
    
    Dave
    
From:	SMAUG::GARROD "An Englishman's mind works best when it is almost too late  24-Nov-1993 1459 -0500" 24-NOV-1993 14:59:27.96
To:	AKOCOA::NANDU
CC:	GARROD
Subj:	Regarding DEIL pregnancy policy

Chandrasekhar,

I am writing this note to you in response to your note 2791.57 in the
DIGITAL notesfile.

As a manager in Digital's Networks Engineering Group I would like to comment
on how I believe the current DEIL policy around pregnancy is not in Digital's
best interest.

I was recently asked whether I would like to investigate utilizing DEIL
employees in my organization. When I received the request I was very
interested in following up on it. I have heard nothing but good reports on
the experience level and quality of work performed by DEIL contractors.

But reading this notes string has made me have second thoughts. I am not
at all concerned by the fact that you bond your US resident employees. I feel
that is very reasonable given the investment that DEIL puts into bringing
qualified employees to the USA. You certainly need some way of preventing
people from jumping ship once in the USA. This part of your contract sounds
eminently reasonable to me.

But I am absolutely appalled by the DEIL policy that precludes the spouse
of a DEIL employee from having a child in the same locale that the employee
is working in (the USA). It appears that employees are faced with having to
either pack their wife off to India and wish them well OR they have to resign
from DEIL (and incur the legitimate financial burden of breaking their 
employment contract with DEIL) to be with their wife during a most important
time of their life. I can't see it benefits ANYBODY to mandate that a DEIL
employee's spouse can't have their child in the USA. This to me seems to be an
absolute abrogration of a person's basic human rights.

The reason I have decided not to persue looking at DEIL employees further
to fill my open positions is that I cannot in good conscience be part of a
scheme that seems to be in absolute conflict with basic human rights. The
current pregnancy policy appears to me to mean that I as a client would be
very likely to end up with someone who may at some point have to make a
choice between their job and their family. This is bad for Digital and bad
for the employee and in my view can only lead to lower quality work. An
employee that has to wonder how their wife and child are doing at 5,000
miles distance is not a productive employee.

I'd urge to reconsider the pregnancy part of the contract that you currently
require your employees to sign.

Yours sincerely,

David J Garrod
IBM Interconnect Emgineering Manager

re .62 by SMAUG::GARROD

>I can't see it benefits ANYBODY to mandate that a DEIL
>'s spouse can't have their child in the USA. This to me seems to be an
>abrogration of a person's basic human rights.

This is silly.

Being with your wife when she has a child is not a basic human right.
It absolutly amazes me how people abuse this term.

While being with your wife when she has a child is certainly a highly
important thing, it is not always possible nor should it be expected
when you choose certain kinds of jobs. Sailors, military people, anyone
involved in the transportation industry (that travels) and people who
work in foreign countries all have to make the trade-off between 'normal'
family life at home and the benefits of the job. If you can't or won't
make the trade-off, you shouldn't take the job. If you do, you certainly
shouldn't complain about it. Contract or no contract.

As for who gets hurt when a non-US citizen has a child in the US, the
answer is the thousands of people denied immigration to the US each year
because of the quota system. The constitution and the laws are such that
anyone who has a child here either can't be forced to leave or they get
an instant jump to the front of the immigration line. Allowing non-US
workers into the country without some type of agreement regarding birth
is an open door loophole that would be flooded with people beating the
system. I suspect that the visas to Indian workers were granted under
the provision that they were not part of India's immigration quota and
therefore they were/are not allowed to have children here.

While the quota system may or may not be fair, it is a topic for different
discussion.

    re: .61
    
    If the H4 visa said she must leave the country before the birth of her
    child, then US law has the power to force her to do so. I doubt the H4
    visa has this requirement, but if it does there is no need for a
    contract provision stating the same thing.
    
    The H1-B visa becomes invalid (and therefore the H4 as well) when the
    contract is broken.  If he breaks it he must pay the penalty.  If DEIL
    breaks it there is no penalty.  In either case they both return home
    together.
    
    Since the contract provision he solely agreed to is an illegal promise
    to force his wife to do something independant of her will on the matter
    that provision is invalid and cannot be considered a part of the
    contract. Ignoring that part of the contract is not a breach of the
    contract on his part and he is not liable for the penalty when or if
    DEIL terminates the contract.

    Re .-1
    
    This is not silly.
    
    I have never heard of the case where someone's wife is OBLIGATED by
    their husbands employer to leave their side if they should DARE to get
    pregnant.
    
    As pointed out the wife is fully allowed to be in the USA. That is not
    precluded by the employment contract. It's a basic human right to be
    free to procreate and live together as a family.
    
    By the way I came to the USA on an L1 visa (subsequently converted to a
    Green Card). Digital didn't make me promise to send my wife back to
    England should I get married and have a child. So why should Digital
    India do this. It doesn't sound like standard operating procedure to
    me.
    
    Dave

General Reply to previous notes:
--------------------------------

	I wish I had more time to discuss this. But I do want to clear certain
things before I leave. I have mentioned these things before in my replies :

1. The note entered by Nandu on the bahalf of DEIL management, still does not
   answer the basic question I started asking about three months ago [Please
   refer to my attached mail to DEIL management]

	- What is the logic behind DEIL's pregnancy policy? What is DEIL losing
	  by allowing us to give birth to our child in US?
	- What are the government regulations, if any in this regard (I 
	  seriously doubt there are any such regulations from any govt. agency)

2. A question about expenses has been raised numerous time in this discussion
   without going into details. I would like to give some figures here :

	Approximately, DEIL's costs in bringing up an Engineer here are :
	a) A round trip ticket per person = $2000.00 + $2000.00(spouse)
	b) Salary given to an Engineer    = $2200.00 Per month + $500.00 for 
					     taxes (Refer to published policy)
	c) Training costs (if any)
		( I went through only one training in the past four years I
		  stayed with DEIL. This was a month's training in Detroit)
		- I would love to get the official data on how many engineers
		  are actually trained before coming to US. They are normally
		  employed with the the "saleable" skill set.

	Total = $4000.00 + $2700 * 12 = $36,400.00 + medical (company's part)

	What Digital has been earning on me (this can be verified from my
	current manger - Tom Miles) :

	June to November end = Approx. 900 Hours * $150.00 per hour 
						= $135,000 in six months.

	December to June = Approx $30,000 ( I am not sure about this because
					    this was an internal project).


	I am not complaining that DEIL made so much money, in fact I am proud
	that company is doing a profitable business. The only reason I 
	illustrated this is to clear off any misunderstanding that DEIL is doing
	a favour on us by bringing us here. We do get a wonderful opportunity 
	to work on latest technology. 

3. This, in my case is being happening for the past four years. One of the 
   noters has mentioned that I have only been here for a few months on this 
   assignment.
   
   First, I came down to US in Oct,89. I worked here for a year and then took a
   remote delivery project back and did it from India. I came back to implement
   that project and stayed here for another year. I again took back a remote
   delivery project and did it for six months in India. This time, I came back
   to US on 23rd of December,92 to implement that remote delivery project for
   three months. Please note that in these remote delivery project, my travel
   was paid by the group for whom I was doing the project. I stayed on after
   completing my remote delivery and thus moved to the new policy in March,93.
   So technically I am completing one year on 22nd of December,93. I offered
   to stay till 22nd of December and complete one full year as the baby is
   due in Feb,93. But DEIL rejected that request also without giving any
   reason [ I am enclosing all of my correspondance with DEIL management in the
   next note].

4. Why was'nt any effort made by DEIL management to find any solution, even 
   after my repetedly requesting them ?

5. Some people have commented on ethics of starting this discussion here. I 
   just want to mention that :

	1. I tried everything possible to find a solution without any success
	   ( please refer to the next note containing all my correspondance).
	   I even tried resigning, but only got threats in response.

	2. If I have resigned, does that make my problem invalid and irrelevant.

	3. Aren't these notes conferences right place to start a free and fair
	   discussions ? Don't I get a right to state my part of the story.

	4. I never wanted to resign but I was left with no option but to take
	   this step. If I wanted to use DEIL as a jumping board to come to
	   US and stay here forever, Wouldn't I have done it four years ago.

6. The note by Nandu mentions that I was allowed to take leave and be with my
   family. If my wife goes back to India during sixth month of her pregnancy
   and there is nobody in India to take care of her, is the TWO WEEKS of 
   allowed leave sufficient ? Was DEIL ready to give me a six months leave ?


I thank everyone once again for their time and interest.

Manoj.
----------------My first mail to DEIL management------------------------------
From:	SYOMV::DHAWAN "12-Sep-1993 1832" 12-SEP-1993 19:36:19.06
To:	AKOCOA::DMAHESHWARY
CC:	AKOCOA::DESHPANDE,AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR,DHAWAN
Subj:	Question about a DEIL policy ...

Hi Dinesh,

	Sorry for a long mail but please bear with me as the matter is very
important to me.

	My name is Manoj Dhawan and I have been working as a Sr. Software speci-
alist with DEIL ( EIS exports) for the past four years. I am working with Suneel
Deshpande in the Alpha migration group at present. My current assignment is to
work as an Alpha OSF/1 consultant to a DEC's major client (Carrier Corporation) 
in Syracuse. I am leading a team of four software Engineers at Carrier and am 
responsible for software migration and re-engineering of the entire applications
of Carrier, scattered on 23 Prime machines to DEC Alpha systems. I was also 
awarded COE in 1991 and have taken and successfully completed two six months 
remote delivery projects in India (one from Bombay and another one from Delhi).

	The reason I am bothering you with all this detail is, the DEIL policy
of not allowing the families to deliver their babies in United States. My wife
is pregnant and our baby is due in Feb-94. My project is going to go on for 
another two years and I really would like to continue on this project. The 
only option for us in this case is to go back to India for a month for the 
delivery. I am finding it extremely inconvenient for both me and my wife to go
back to India for the delivery. If that is the logical thing to do from DEIL
point of view, I am willing to take that step. But I sure would like to under-
stand why is it necessary for the families to travel back in this situation.
I have spoken with John Hancock and they cover the hospitalization during
pregnancy. Also in the current salary scheme, we are paying for our part of
the medical insurance ($125/month) and I think we should be allowed to use the
benefits of medical insurance to the fullest.

	I also think that now with more than about 60% married Engineers in our
Exports team in US, this is going to be one of the important matters of concern.

	I would like to have an opportunity to meet you personally and talk 
about my situation at length.

Thank you for your time,

Regards,
Manoj Dhawan.

Email : SYOMV::DHAWAN
Phone : (315)-433-4989 (Work)
	(315)-452-7898 (Home)

From:	SYOMV::DHAWAN "12-Sep-1993 1832" 12-SEP-1993 19:36:19.06
To:	AKOCOA::DMAHESHWARY
CC:	AKOCOA::DESHPANDE,AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR,DHAWAN
Subj:	Question about a DEIL policy ...

Hi Dinesh,

	Sorry for a long mail but please bear with me as the matter is very
important to me.

	My name is Manoj Dhawan and I have been working as a Sr. Software speci-
alist with DEIL ( EIS exports) for the past four years. I am working with Suneel
Deshpande in the Alpha migration group at present. My current assignment is to
work as an Alpha OSF/1 consultant to a DEC's major client (Carrier Corporation) 
in Syracuse. I am leading a team of four software Engineers at Carrier and am 
responsible for software migration and re-engineering of the entire applications
of Carrier, scattered on 23 Prime machines to DEC Alpha systems. I was also 
awarded COE in 1991 and have taken and successfully completed two six months 
remote delivery projects in India (one from Bombay and another one from Delhi).

	The reason I am bothering you with all this detail is, the DEIL policy
of not allowing the families to deliver their babies in United States. My wife
is pregnant and our baby is due in Feb-94. My project is going to go on for 
another two years and I really would like to continue on this project. The 
only option for us in this case is to go back to India for a month for the 
delivery. I am finding it extremely inconvenient for both me and my wife to go
back to India for the delivery. If that is the logical thing to do from DEIL
point of view, I am willing to take that step. But I sure would like to under-
stand why is it necessary for the families to travel back in this situation.
I have spoken with John Hancock and they cover the hospitalization during
pregnancy. Also in the current salary scheme, we are paying for our part of
the medical insurance ($125/month) and I think we should be allowed to use the
benefits of medical insurance to the fullest.

	I also think that now with more than about 60% married Engineers in our
Exports team in US, this is going to be one of the important matters of concern.

	I would like to have an opportunity to meet you personally and talk 
about my situation at length.

Thank you for your time,

Regards,
Manoj Dhawan.

Email : SYOMV::DHAWAN
Phone : (315)-433-4989 (Work)
	(315)-452-7898 (Home)

From:	AKOMTS::AKOMTS::MRGATE::"AKOV12A1::MAHESHWARY.DINESH" 13-SEP-1993 10:16:42.14
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Question about a DEIL policy ...

From:	NAME: Dinesh Maheshwary             
	FUNC: SI Professional Services        
	TEL: 508-264-6212                     <MAHESHWARY.DINESH AT AKOV12A1 at AKOMTS at AKO>
To:	NAME: VMSMail User DHAWAN <DHAWAN@SYOMV@MRGATE@AKOMTS>

Monoj,

This is Joanne

I have saved your message for Dinesh to read.  However, he just left for 
India on Saturday evening and will not return until after October 7.  So 
please be patient for his answer.  I will tell him of your memo when he 
calls and I have saved it.

Regards,
Joanne

p.s. congratulations on your new baby!

From:	AKOCOA::PEREIRA      "Was wild, now tamed! DTN 244-6150 @ AKO1-3/C15" 20-SEP-1993 14:41:13.28
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	PEREIRA
Subj:	DEIL maternity policy

Manoj,

I am enclosing a note that was prepared by Ashok Shah to address 
all maternity issues.

Your concerns are being discussed, and I shall get back to you on 
that.

Regds,

Ashok.

...........................................................


D I G I T A L 

                          INTER OFFICE MEMO


To : All Assignees                                Frm   : Ashok Shah
                                                  Title : Vice President EIS
CC : Exports Staff                                Ph    : 91 80 344785
     Maya Reddi @ QCA
     Shashi Marathe @ BBIV02


Sub : Maternity Issues

     

      DE(I)L strives to provide a comfortable environment for each
person to carry out his/her assignment in a professional manner. In
this regard the Company has evolved policies and procedures which are
fair and equitable for all its employees and assignees world-wide. All
policies and procedures are constantly examined and reviewed
periodically to find scope for improvement and make appropriate
amendments based on different parameters for better business and
personal environment. 

       DE(I)L has thought it appropriate based on social, cultural and
legal reasons that all maternity related cases be brought to its
attention as early as possible. The company feels it necessary that
all expectant mothers return to India before the end of the sixth
month. While medical insurance coverage would be available, DE(I)L
would not as a policy re-imburse any deductible associated with
maternity expenses. The rational behind the policy being that cultural
ties  are maintained. The assignee would have the option to return
with the spouse. 

       In this connection any change in medical status of assignee or
spouse, in particular expectant mothers be informed to the Country
Admin Manager. Any breach of this procedure would be viewed with
serious concern. 

       Any queries in this regard may be addressed to the Country
Admin Manager. We are confident of your continued co-operation. 

Regards,

Ashok Shah

From:	AKOCOA::PEREIRA      "Was wild, now tamed! DTN 244-6150 @ AKO1-3/C15"  4-OCT-1993 13:51:22.73
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	PEREIRA
Subj:	Tomorrow's (10/5) call with Dinesh


Manoj,

Was out of the office, just met Dinesh, who's mentioned that
since he will be in a staff meeting with us from 9:15AM onwards
tomorrow morning, could you call him at around 9AM, OK?

Regds,
Ashok.

From:	SYOMV::DHAWAN "08-Nov-1993 1632"  8-NOV-1993 16:42:01.75
To:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR
CC:	DHAWAN
Subj:	I received the tickets today...

Hi Khedekar,

	I tried to call you and left a message on your voice mail also.

	I have received Suman's air tickets today, I will send them back to
	you by tomorrow's mail.

	I also wanted to know what all do I need to do in order to settle 
	everything before I leave. I have taken care of the following things :

	1. I have given a month's notice starting 5th of November.
	2. I have returned my air tickets back to you.
	3. I will send Suman's air tickets to you asap.
	4. I have sent the medical bills to you and also entered the amount in
	   DC_MIS for this month.

	I beleive, I will have to get my things settled back in India also. 
	Can you take care of those things or do I need to get it settled myself

	by contacting somebody back in India. Please advise.

Thanks and Regards,
Manoj Dhawan.

From:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR "GAUTAM KHEDEKAR" Digital India F&A  08-Nov-1993 1734"  8-NOV-1993 17:31:57.68
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	PEREIRA,KHEDEKAR
Subj:	Issues

Hi Manoj,

I presume you know and that Ashok Pereira would have discussed and told you that
as per the terms of contract you have signed there is no question about you 
quitting your assignment midway before the completion of a year from March 01,
1993 which is the date you started on your US assignment under the new TIA 
policy. 

I would suggest you reconsider your decision to leave in both your and the 
Company's interest. 

Regards

Khedekar

From:	SYOMV::DHAWAN "15-Nov-1993 0834" 15-NOV-1993 09:07:34.42
To:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR
CC:	SYOMV::DHAWAN,AKOCOA::PEREIRA,AKOCOA::DMAHESHWARY
Subj:	Re: Issues

Hi Khedekar,
	As per the DEIL policy and also as it was mentioned by Ashok Pereira, I
need to complete my first H1 year with DEIL in United States. As you know that 

	1. I am working on DEIL export projects for the past four years without
	   any break, either in United states or in India. 
	2. Thus, this of course is not my first H1 year. In fact this is my 
	   third H1 year, as I was on B1 during my first year.

	Now, at the time of issuance of the new TIA policy we (DEIL software 
	Engineers) were made to believe, after a long discussion, that we can
	leave the company at any time by giving a months notice. And I know 
	that DEIL, in the past one year, is letting the Engineers go, if the 
	sufficient notice is given. Why am I being discriminated against, and
	not being allowed to leave even after giving a month's notice.

Regards,
Manoj Dhawan. 


From:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR "GAUTAM KHEDEKAR" Digital India F&A  16-Nov-1993 1423" 16-NOV-1993 14:22:04.50
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	DINESH,PEREIRA,KHEDEKAR
Subj:	Contract with DEIL

Hi Manoj,

Sorry for the delay in responding to your message of yesterday. 

I would like to draw your attention to the contract you signed with us 
and particularly to Clause # 2 &3 of the Contract you signed with the company
which clearly states that you have to complete a year's assignment from the 
day you signed the contract ie from March 4,1993 and that you cannot terminate
your contract before the completion of a year with or without notice.

The terms of contract for S.D Sharma were different and he has fulfilled the 
contract terms as per the agreement he had signed.

In view of the above I would again like to request you to kindly reconsider 
your decision and fulfill your contractual obligations.

Regards

Khedekar




From:	SYOMV::DHAWAN "17-Nov-1993 0909" 17-NOV-1993 09:50:43.46
To:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR
CC:	AKOCOA::PEREIRA,AKOCOA::DMAHESHWARY,SYOMV::DHAWAN
Subj:	RE: Contract with DEIL

Hi Khedekar,
	Thanks for your response yesterday.

	I understand now that it is my fault to not read the agreement properly
before signing it. But this happened because of the following two reasons.
1.  I was always under the impression that this contract can be terminated by
either parties on giving a month's notice, as we were made to believe at the
time this TIA policy was presented to us in Oct-Nov,92.
2.  I was not aware of the fact that DEIL signs diferent contracts with 
different employees. I am still not sure why, when everything else was same, 
DEIL signed a different contract with me than it signed with others like 
S.D.Sharma. 
	The purpose of this mail though, is not to discuss this but to propose a
solution.
	Point number 2 of the contract which was signed between DEIL and me, 
also states that "Digital may reduce the term of Consultant's assignment to 
Digital for cause." . As DEIL is well aware of the fact that my wife is now
six months pregnant and we are expecting a baby in Feb,94. According to DEIL's
policy my wife has to go back to India for delivery. I think DEIL will unders-
tand that it is my responsibility to take care of my wife and my choice to be
with her during this time and when our first child is born. Besides, nobody in
India can take care of her at this time.
	Considering these circumstances, I would like to request DEIL to reduce
the term of my assignment to Digital and releive me by the end of this month.
I have also spoken to DEC's manager, who I report to (Tom Miles) and he is 
willing to cooperate with me on this, as Ashok Pereira and Suneel Deshpande are
aware of. He mentioned having a discussion with Ashok and Suneel about working
on a replacement for me. The project I am working on right now is on a stage,
where a replacement right away, would not be an absolute necessity.
	In my opinion this solution will workout well for both DEIL and me.
Please let me know what DEIL management thinks about this.

Thanks for your time,
Manoj Dhawan.

From:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR "GAUTAM KHEDEKAR" Digital India F&A  17-Nov-1993 1826" 17-NOV-1993 18:35:00.19
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	ASHOK,DINESH,KHEDEKAR
Subj:	Contract with DEIL


Hi Manoj,

This is in response to your attached mail on the above subject. Let me explain.

The assignees who signed the contracts before January 01,1993 could terminate
their assignments for whatever reasons by giving one month's notice. Majority 
of them had already finished 6-8 months on their assignments and they signed up
for an additional period of 6-8 months as applicable. 
All assignees who signed their contracts effective January 01,1993 are expected
to be on their assignments for a period of one year from the date they sign 
the contract which in your case starts in March 93 and ends in March 94.

We have considered your request for reducing the term of your assignment and 
regret to state that we will not be in a position to do so. We would again
request you to continue on your current assignment or else we will have
no other option but to enforce the penalties as explained in the terms of the 
contract.

Regards

Khedekar 




From:	SYOMV::DHAWAN "18-Nov-1993 1409" 18-NOV-1993 14:14:50.91
To:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR
CC:	AKOCOA::PEREIRA,AKOCOA::DMAHESHWARY,SYOMV::DHAWAN
Subj:	RE: Contract with DEIL

Hi Khedekar,

	Thanks for a quick response.

	About DEIL signing different contracts with different Consultants or    
	employees, I still don't understand why they (I mean the people who 
	signed the contract before Jan 1,93) were given an opportunity to leave
	the company by  giving a months notice, even before completing one full
 	year in USA, and we (who signed it after Jan 1,93) were not given an 
	equal opportunity to leave DEIL by giving a months notice.

	About DEIL insisting on my continuing with the present assignment under
	the current circumstances which I tried to explain in my previous mail,
	It is very unfortunate to note that DEIL places the contract and polici-
	es above the moral and professional values. And DEIL has a very little 
	sensitivity and regard towards an employee's responsibility towards his
	family. I am referring to my case in which if I follow the DEIL policy, my
	wife will have to go back to India and deliver our first child without my
	being present with her and my being able to take care of her. As I am 
	bonded by DEIL for one year with no way to get out of the bond. I would
	again request DEIL to kindly reconsider their decision and allow me to be 
	present with my wife during the arrival of our first child.

	This is putting me and my family under a lot of mental pressure and tension
	and I would request DEIL to reconsider its decision and respond to me as
	quickly as possible.

Thanks for your time,
Manoj Dhawan.


From:	AKOCOA::KHEDEKAR "GAUTAM KHEDEKAR" Digital India F&A  19-Nov-1993 1703" 19-NOV-1993 17:17:43.56
To:	SYOMV::DHAWAN
CC:	DINESH,ASHOK,KHEDEKAR
Subj:	Final Decision

Hi Manoj,

This is in response to your attached mail . I think we had made it very clear to
you in our earlier messages that you have signed a contract for working on a 
DEIL assignment in US for a period of one year and we maintain our stand.
You have to honour the Contract you had signed on March 04,1993 and fulfill 
your committments. 

There will be no further communication on this subject from our side and we
would once again request you to fulfill the terms of the contract. In case you 
want to break this contract you must pay the damages amounting to US $ 4,000 as 
spelled out in article 3 of your contract with DE(I)L.


Regards

Khedekar 

    re: .55
    	There was a time when owning slaves was legal in the U.S. and not
    legal in Britain. Slave owners on a business trip to Britain would 
    sometimes have their slaves sign a contract to leave the country 
    with them in order to get round the British law against slavery. 
    Often the slaves honoured the contract, but there were cases
    when they did not, and the British courts supported them.
    
>    It says that anything you might develop while working
>    for Digital that has to do with Digital's business is owned by Digital.
>    Is that fair?  I don't know but it stands up in court and it's made
>    clear to you when you sign the agreement.
    
    	This is another thing that does not always hold up under British law.
    
    	There are many other examples, particularly in consumer protection,
    where the law will not recognise an attempt to sign away rights,
    however freely and sincerely entered into.
    
    	A contract is only a piece of paper until a court decides
    otherwise, and it is not confirmed that a U.S. court would permit
    either DEIL or her husband to force this woman to return to India.

re <<< Note 2791.65 by SMAUG::GARROD "From VMS -> NT, Unix a future page from history" >>>
>                       -< It is NOT SILLY, I'm serious >-

>
>    precluded by the employment contract. It's a basic human right to be
>    free to procreate and live together as a family.

Although a contract between two private parties that precluded a family living
together may be unenforceable in the courts, that right that may be, and often
is, set aside if you are employed by the US Government in the Army, Air Force,
Navy, State Dept, etc, in MANY circumstances.  For instance, if you are
attending a service Academy and you exercise your right to marriage and
procreation, you are discharged (their version of TFSO).  There are many
geographic areas where you are not allowed to "live together as a family"; not
just combat zones.  If you are on active duty and you elect to exercise that
"basic human right", you run the risk of contemplating fairness while behind
bars. 

Once the government sticks its nose in, sane, rational thinking is an exercise 
in futility.

    It's clearly too late for the base noter, as he has already
    resigned.  But, all policies are subject to broad employee
    intrepretation.

    The correct employee strategy in this situation is:
    	Hello DEIL: my wife is pregnant, and her doctor advises
    	against travel. Sorry.

    or, just wait:
    	Hello DEIL: my wife is more than eight months along in
        her pregnancy, and the airlines refuse to transport her.
        Sorry.

    What's the worst outcome? -- the employee is terminated.  

    The same situation he's in now, without the $4K debt.

>It's a basic human right to be free to procreate and live together as a family.
    
I don't agree it's a right completely but... 

They aren't saying you can't do that anyway just 'not here please' 
do it in your home country where it won't make a difference to your 
rights rather than in a foreign country where it strengthens your 
position to stay there.

Noone has any point said the lady in question can't have her baby or live
with her husband.  He just had to make a choice.   


Then again, I gather support for kids in the US  is quite good, 
maybe I should visit the US and drop a sprog there myself, it'd 
be more comfortable than here probalby if I chose somewhere nice :-)


>    	There are many other examples, particularly in consumer protection,
>    where the law will not recognise an attempt to sign away rights,
>    however freely and sincerely entered into.


Bit like you can swear away your British citizenship to get the same for 
another country but when it comes down to it you're still a british citizen. 

.70

:-) 

must say that one occured to me.... the contract said you had to notify as 
soon as you were aware, but if you didn't notice ... :-)

    re: .71
    	Most countries that have national service will not let you swear
    away your citizenship rights. The only thing unusual about Britain in
    that respect is that it doesn't have national service.
    
>Then again, I gather support for kids in the US  is quite good, 
>maybe I should visit the US and drop a sprog there myself, it'd 
>be more comfortable than here probalby if I chose somewhere nice :-)
    
    	Actually, from the statistics, it doesn't look too good. As far as
    I can remember the U.S. rates about 15th. in infant mortality rates.
    You would be better off in Sweden (1st.) or France (3rd.) and Britain
    and Eire both rate better than the U.S..  I don't know about comfort,
    but for safety the U.S. is not a good bet.
    
    	The list I saw didn't mention India, but just as their software
    experts are superb I expect they have good doctors - if you can pay.
    
    	Which brings up another point. Someone mentioned that going back to
    India would get you access the Indian socialised medicine system. From
    my own experience I rather doubt this. My elder daughter was born in
    Britain and has British nationality. Her every known relative is
    British. She is currently living in Britain. Her entitlement to the
    British socialised medicine system comes from the fact that she carries
    an E111 form issued by the French authorities stating that she is my
    dependent and because I am paying in to the French system she is
    covered by reciprocal arrangements between Britain and France.
    
    	Assuming this is standard practice the woman would have to carry a
    form from the U.S. authorities stating that her husband is paying in to
    the U.S. socialised medicine system and because of reciprocal
    arrangements between India and the U.S.....    I expect she would have
    to pay for medical treatment in either country, though there seemed to
    be some chance that the insurance in the U.S. might cover some of the
    costs there.

    There are imigration quotas from countries, and the quotas may be
    higher for some countries than others.  I expect that DEIL is operating
    with regards to some imigration quotas.  It is only a guess.  
    
    However the Cost to internationally relocate an employee is much
    greater than the $4,000.00 penalty that they impose.  I did check on
    this as I was looking at an International Relocation.  One year is not
    much compared to going to Valbonne for 3 years, or other places for 2-3
    years.  
    
    The revenue that one engineer generates is not a matter in this case,
    as I am sure there are qualified (TFSO?) individuals who could do this
    work in the USA.  In Germany or Norway, there must be no qualified 
    employable individuals available in order to get a relocation.  Is this
    a training ground for DEIL?  If so there may be more restrictions on
    the person.   
    
    I was left in Germany in 1979 without a job when I worked for another 
    firm, this was not nice, but there was no recourse, either legally or
    via the Germany government.  
    
    Dave
    

==============================

From: 	Anoop Garg, Country Manager, Digital Consulting, India (DEIL)
			and
	Maya Reddi, Country Manager, Human Resources, India (DEIL)



Digital India Policies have been formulated after a great deal of thought,
in consultation with various Functions and are based on Digital's worldwide
Philosophy and Values.

The Policies which are enunciated by DEIL take into account the interests
of assignees and their families, conformance to the commitments given to
the authorities in the country where the business is conducted,
and also local practices followed by other Multinational Corporations.

Policies are based on the organisation's business Objectives, strict 
adherence to regulations in the country where we do business and 
mutual commitments between the organisation and employees.

DEIL has been making amendments to its policies from time to time based on
various inputs from our employees . It is this openness that has brought out 
the healthy growth of the organisation. 

There seems to be some miscommunication with the interpretation of the 
Policies and therefore the need to clarify and set to rest this debate
and the volumes that seems to be occupying people's time.

* There is a clear understanding with US Immigration that thro the deputation
  of our assignees we will not impact on US citizenship. We have also committed 
  to the US Consulates that all our Assignees will come back to India 
  and not seek permanent citizenship in US. Therefore our policies have
  been formulated based on this committment.

* Please also note that John Hancock doesn't cover the entire 
  expense on account of maternity, and therefore Digital becomes liable to 
  bear the expenses.

* The Policy with regard to the contract is made clear before the departure of
  the Assignee which the latter signs off as acceptance of the terms and 
  Conditions. There is no compulsion to accept the assignment if individuals
  chose to opt out.

* Assignments are certainly related to the end user requirement. Business
  requirement, end user budgets, performance of the Assignees etc 
  are all factors which will impact the assignment. In situtations where
  there are concerns, we make attempts to get the employees back to work
  on domestic projects and provide alternate assignees so that the project 
  does not get impacted.

* If an Assignee on site wants to leave s(he) can do so by giving the 
  appropriate notice period. This has been done to ensure that Customer 
  Satisfaction.

It should be however noted that DEIL creates a conducive environment for the
assignees, by taking care of their personal/family welfare thro the policies,
investing on training in its employees, offering opportunities to learn
and work on new technologies etc. The knowledge thus gained needs to be
infused into domestic segment as well to be able to generate further
expertise, bringing in more opportunities for the employees and the 
organisation

    

    I don't have any comment with regard to the policies.  I would like to
    say that it is very refreshing to see the responsible organizations
    participating in this note string.  I applaud their openness, and
    their desire to converse rather than confront.  I wish other
    organizations would emulate DEIL's example in this matter.
    
    					andrew

From .67,


D I G I T A L 

                          INTER OFFICE MEMO


To : All Assignees                                Frm   : Ashok Shah
                                                  Title : Vice President EIS
CC : Exports Staff                                Ph    : 91 80 344785
     Maya Reddi @ QCA
     Shashi Marathe @ BBIV02


Sub : Maternity Issues


	[ some lines deleted ]

> maternity expenses. The rational behind the policy being that cultural
> ties  are maintained. The assignee would have the option to return
> with the spouse. 


It seems that this last line is not being followed; he is not being given the
option to return with his spouse without resigning.

    I read through every one of the replies here and I can't believe my
    eyes.  I kept looking for the obvious happy ending and it's not there.
    
    Let me get this straight - he wants to keep working on the project and
    have his baby here in the USA.  This way, .0 wins, DEC wins, DEIL wins,
    the project wins.  .0 keeps his family together, spends a couple weeks
    changing diapers and staying up all night, then goes back to work on
    the project as a new dad.  
    
    If insurance is a problem, the author of .0 and DEC or DEIL could have 
    worked something out.
    
    But DEIL's policy says, nope, gotta send the wife back to India to have 
    the baby.  If you go back with the wife, you lose your job, you lose 
    $4000, the project is set back, DEIL loses a good employee and DEC
    loses.  If you stay here and work on the project, you lose months of
    time with your family.
    
    So, after 3 months of jerking around, DEIL's senior management comes
    out with a gutless interpetation of the policy full of pretty words
    about preserving culture that screws everyone.  The project loses, the
    employee loses, DEIL loses, DEC loses, and everyone is a little more
    cynical than before.
    
    Dave G, your letter was a whole lot more diplomatic than I would have
    been!
    
    I just can't keep quiet on this one.  This isn't the military, nobody
    is on a ship at sea, there is no war.  The outcome did NOT have to be
    like this.  There was a solution where everybody could have won and
    DEIL's management made a deliberate decision to not pursue it.  Unless
    there are facts I don't know about, this is just totally inexcusable.
    
    Don't give me that crap about signing a contract.  Unless I missed 
    something, the choice up front was, "sign or you're fired!"
    
    People wonder why DEC is going down the tubes?  Look to the awful 
    attitude in this note for a healthy clue.
    
    - Greg Scott
    
    (btw, I'm the DEC original Greg Scott, the one in Minnesota.  As far as
    I know, this is the first note string where both of us Greg Scott folks
    have replied.  So come down on **me** for criticizing management, not 
    the other Greg.)

re .77 by ANGLIN::SCOTTG

>    Let me get this straight - he wants to keep working on the project and
>    have his baby here in the USA.  This way, .0 wins, DEC wins, DEIL wins,
>    the project wins.  .0 keeps his family together, spends a couple weeks
      :
>    But DEIL's policy says, nope, gotta send the wife back to India to have 
>    the baby.  If you go back with the wife, you lose your job, you lose 

May I suggest you go read it again?    Specifically:

|   Note 2791.74, AKOV03::DEIL_CONSULT, -< Message from DEIL Country Managers >-
|
|* There is a clear understanding with US Immigration that thro the deputation
|  of our assignees we will not impact on US citizenship. We have also committed 
|  to the US Consulates that all our Assignees will come back to India 
|  and not seek permanent citizenship in US. Therefore our policies have
|  been formulated based on this committment.

It's not DEIL's policy, it's US immigration LAW. It's not new law, it's old
law. It stems from the 14th amendment, signed somewhere around 1868.

    
    Re: .77
    
    > Unless I missed something, ...
    
    Go back and read the replies.  It seems you may have missed quite
    a lot.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    
    

    No where there is any requirement in the Immigration Law that a person
    who is on a temporary visa can not get pregnant or deliver a baby.  It
    does not matter if she is on F-1 or F-2, B-1 or B-2, H-1 or H-4 visa.
    [I have spent enough time in the library to read most of the US Code
     dealing with the immigratrion and visas.]

    The visa officers (which is part of the State Dept; NOT Immigration,
    which is part of the Justice Dept) will try their best to reject
    temporary visa to any applicant if she suspects that the subject might
    not return or if the subject is obviously pregnant.  She does reject
    the visa if she thinks the subject might get married to US citizen
    after coming over.  The visa officer has total discretion over who gets
    the visa and who doesn't.  She has some guidelines but no LAW stating
    that she can't issue visa to pregnant or a "potentially" pregnant
    person.  DIGITAL OR DEIL HAS NO LEGAL SAY WHATSOEVER IN THIS PROCESS,
    apart from providing the necessary papers stating that the services of
    the subject is necessary to complete a "temporary" project and is
    provided with adequate means to support to complete the "temporary"
    assignment.  (6 years is NOT temporary!!)
    
    One thing is certain though; if the base noter's name did not sound
    foreign and if he were to come from one of the Western (European)
    country, this entire scenario would have been unthinkable to the most
    of the participants in this discussion.
    
    - Vikas

    
    Re: .80
    
    > One thing is certain though; if the base noter's name did not sound
    > foreign and if he were to come from one of the Western (European)
    > country, this entire scenario would have been unthinkable to the most
    > of the participants in this discussion.
    
    Baloney!  It doesn't matter to me where he came from.  I just fail to
    see how it's reasonable to cry foul when he knew the rules of the
    game before he agreed to play.  The time to cry foul was by questioning
    the rule in the first place.  If he had done *that*.  I would have
    supported him.
      
    Steve
    

  I would like to second the point made in .80 regarding U.S. Immigration laws.
  There is no U.S. law barring any temporary visitor/worker and their spouses
  to become pregant and give birth to a child during their visit.

  I agree (half-heartedly) with the point made that the base noter knew the
  conditions he signed the assignment contract under and should have complained
  before signing the contract (or not sign it).

  Having said that, the issue of "unfair" Digital policy still remains. It is 
  not fair for Digital (or it's subsidary) to make policies which intefere with
  it's employees family and personal life. This policy should be reconsidered.

Avinash

    The DEC-India contract did not account for the success of the venture
    and series of contracts one after another.

    If a contract is one shot for a limited period of time, then it is
    fine, it is reasonable to plan and ask for compromises with a
    consultant's private life. 

    But now consultants take one contract after another. We can only
    congratulate DEC-India and consultants, the scheme works over
    expectation.

    But this is new situation and thus requires modified rules. 

    Consultants work years on temporary contracts . In order to continue
    success story, consultants have to be able to live normal family lives.

    Healthiest would be to simply drop all the rules around pregnancy
    altogether. Only have a clear explanation of medical/financial
    responsibilities of all parties , this is are where contracts come
    into place. Why bother at all about people's private lives ? 

    So, dear DEC-India, please reconsider your decision, this is a new
    situation . We have lost enough competent people that deliver. 

    			regards,

    				wlodek

    I also remember that the base noter had been "temporarily" here for
    about 6 years.  If that's true, this is nothing but the abuse of the
    immigration system as practised by you know who.
    
    By the way, that particular clause of the contract is unenforceable in
    any civilized country and would be laughed right out off the court. 
    That is also true for India.  Many of the enterprizes operating in
    India which provide techinical persons to US on an "annual temporary"
    basis know that.  So, when one of their income generator "defects",
    they hound the parents of the person, hoping that the intimidation will
    work. 
    
    - Vikas

    By the way, can you tell me what do you mean by "supporting" him if he
    had not signed the contract?  Do you think he would be in US?  Do you
    think he would had access to Digital notesfile to complain about the
    clause in his contract?  Would there be any contract?

    Ask around to see if any of our European colleagues, who are now
    working for Digital US, were asked to sign this kind contract.  One of
    them has even written to DEIL supporting the base noter and protesting
    the unfair practice.
    
    - Vikas

       Having read this conference for years, I'm not surprised that not
    everyone is taking the base Noters side. I don't think it necessarily has
    (much) to do with where the base noter is from. Though I do believe 
    that Digital wouldn't try this sort of thing with people from most,
    if any, western European countries. I think that companies tend to
    try what they can a) justify in their own minds and b) get their people
    to put up with. Some parts of the world, US and Western Europe, tend to
    put up with a lot less than other places. And other places have a more
    current history of justifying things to themselves.

    One other thing that plays into this is that Digital has long pushed
    for people to "understand and except" other cultures. This breeds a
    feeling that maybe we shouldn't be too critical of operations in
    countries with different cultures that we don't understand too well.
    This can get out of hand. And perhaps this is happening here.

    Vikas knows India and emigration issues a whole lot better then I ever
    will. If he says that this agreement is a bit over the top, and he
    seems to be saying just that, I'm not going to argue with him. I
    wouldn't accept this treatment and the case for accepting it based on
    emigration and cultural issues has just not been made to my
    satisfaction.

    			Alfred

	Re .86...

	"...the case for accepting it based on
	 emigration and cultural issues has just not been made ..."

	Why need culture play a role?  So India's culture is different
	from the USA's.  So what?

	Is it too far off the mark to say that the DEIL rules are intended
	to prevent people from acquiring US citizenship by making endruns
	around our laws?  And if that's the case, the same rules apply to
	all people.

	Does anyone know of Western Europeans' trying to make the same
	endrun?  Were they caught?  Were they sent home?

	rd

  .86. Alfred is right.

  If you really step back and think about issues like these, these are 
  precisely the reason jobs move overseas, because people in other countries
  may be willing to put up with more baloney than they have to compared
  to their colleagues in the same multinational elsewhere. If immigration 
  policies tighten up, the development would simply be done off-shore.

  So it's in your own interest to fight against unfair, unbalanced policies
  applied indiscriminately elsewhere to employees of the same company. If not,
  don't scream at the top of your voice when other countries take away your
  jobs. And as long as disparities exist, move they will.

  And it might be worthwhile to learn about what's happening in other countries
  beyond highly-biased sound-bites on Network TV or reruns of Gunga-Din and
  old Gary Cooper movies where "the hero battles barbarians in India" (I am
  not making this up. It was on last week in one of the old movies channels).
  Their skill-sets may not be what you have been led to believe until now.
  The worst thing you can do is to underestimate your competitors and be
  complacent about them. There are a number of countries in Asia investing
  heavily in Universities and Advanced Research and Development. While you
  were not looking, the Sound Board market in Multimedia PCs is being
  dominated by CreativeLabs, a Singapore company.


  Nari
 
   

   

    It's all very well to argue about this in a notes file.  But those who
    want to do something about it should not stop with that.  They should
    send memos to corporate officers (e.g. Win Hindle and John Buckley),
    demand appointments, and generally try to raise awareness of the
    issue among people who can have some effect on it -- including those
    who might employ DIEHL contractors.
    
    I am not that person, since I already have issues about which I am
    sending memos to corporate officers.  But I encourage those who
    feel that this is an ethics issue to take Bob Palmer at his word
    that he has "zero tolerance" for lack of ethics.  I cannot guarantee
    that this will be good for your career, but at least I can say that
    I'm still here in spite of doing this.
    
    BTW, here are a couple of claims that I've gleaned from this string:
    
    1)  NOTHING in US law bars the DIEHL contractors from having
        children in this country.
    
    2)  The DIEHL contract is legally unenforcable in either India or
        the US.
    
    3)  The DIEHL contract is contrary to accepted Digital values in
        the US and in India.
    
    4)  The DIEHL contract harms both Digital and the employees on whom
        it is enforced.
    
    5)  No similar terms are enforced on employees relocating to the US
        from western Europe (or any other know place except India).
    
    If the above are even close to true, then I have a question for those
    who say "he signed the contract so tough luck, even though he didn't
    realize its implications."  My question is:  have you been treated 
    callously and unfairly by someone who had a legal excuse (not a legal
    right) to do so?  If so, I'd be happy to listen to you.  If not, then
    I suggest that perhaps you aren't qualified to speak to this issue.
    
    		Larry Seiler
    
    PS -- To those who imply that the base noter acted dishonorably, note
    that his wife IS going to India as per his contract, and he DID state
    that he would pay the penalty for resigning if a court rules that that 
    contract condition is legal.  He had plenty of opportunities to weasel
    out of things but has acted entirely in the open.  

    
    Re: .85
    
    > By the way, can you tell me what do you mean by "supporting" him if he
    > had not signed the contract?  Do you think he would be in US?  Do you
    > think he would had access to Digital notesfile to complain about the
    > clause in his contract?  Would there be any contract?
    
    First Vikas, let's be clear that there are two separate issues 
    here.  One is the policy and the other is the responsibility of
    someone who signs a contract.
    
    First, the policy.  While the need to comply with US immigration law
    is important, it seems that this policy is causing trouble, inconvenience,
    and pain to those who must work under its conditions.  Without having
    all the information, I am inclined to think that the policy as part
    solution to ensuring compliance with US immigration laws is causing more
    harm than good and should be changed in favor of a better solution for
    all.  OK?  Are you clear on my view of the policy itself?  If this note
    had been started by someone who was questioning the policy, *before the
    fact* of having signed a contract governed by the policy, then I would
    have been one of the sympathizers who wrote replies in support.
    
    Now, the contract.  This note was started by someone who signed a
    contract knowing this restriction, came to the US to get the benefit
    of working here, and now would prefer to have DEIL relieve him of the
    responsibility to live up to his agreement.  THAT, I don't support.
    
    How do I know that he didn't sign the contract, accepting the terms,
    knowing he may well end up in this situation but expecting that he'd
    be able to slip out of complying with the policy?  How do I know
    whether there was some other person in India who could have come in
    his slot and would have gladly accepted such conditions because he felt 
    it was a rare opportunity that would benefit him and his family for a
    long time to come?  There's more to this than just fairness to this
    particular person.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    I already pointed out there THERE IS NO US IMMIGRATION policy or law
    preventing the pregnancy (actually, wouldn't that be a great
    contraceptive if it really worked?? :-)  As a matter of fact, using WWW or
    CD-ROM database, I could extract the relevant portions of the US Code
    and dump it in this conference to prove it if you still do not
    believe me.

    Just because the base noter's last name is not Jones or Smith is no
    reason to assume that he is a crook trying to weasel out of a contract
    or deceive a used car dealer (quite a feat, I might add).

    "Benefit of working here"?  I do not think not DEIL or Digital brought 
    him here on charity.

    That part of the contract is neither ethical nor legal under US or
    Indian law.  I believe you will agree with me on that one.

    I resent the insinuation that employees having East Indian descent are
    out to cheat "real Americans".  I have said enough on this subject.  
    
    - Vikas

    Re: .91

    > I already pointed out there THERE IS NO US IMMIGRATION policy or law
    > preventing the pregnancy (actually, wouldn't that be a great
    > contraceptive if it really worked?? :-)  As a matter of fact, using WWW or
    > CD-ROM database, I could extract the relevant portions of the US Code
    > and dump it in this conference to prove it if you still do not
    > believe me.

    The printed US Code and how the court interprets it and applies it
    are two different things.  Just because you have a copy of the code
    does not mean you can predict the outcome of a case.
    
    > Just because the base noter's last name is not Jones or Smith is no
    > reason to assume that he is a crook trying to weasel out of a contract
    > or deceive a used car dealer (quite a feat, I might add).

    Get off it, Vikas.  No one thinks this person is a crook because his
    name is not Jones or Smith.  You're the one who brought this up.  Why
    do *you* assume that because some of the noters think that he's got
    no gripe that it's because he is East Indian.  
     
    > "Benefit of working here"?  I do not think not DEIL or Digital brought 
    > him here on charity.

    Of course they didn't, but he *did* sign a contract to come over
    here.  He must have done so figuring there was something in it
    for him.
    
    > That part of the contract is neither ethical nor legal under US or
    > Indian law.  I believe you will agree with me on that one.

    I think the policy should be changed.  I don't know whether it's
    unethical or illegal.  I don't have all the facts.
    
    > I resent the insinuation that employees having East Indian descent are
    > out to cheat "real Americans".  I have said enough on this subject.  
    
    There is *no* such insinuation.  We don't have enough information
    to make a judgement about that.  This is only about one person 
    who happens to be of East Indian descent.   He could just as well
    have been German, French, Canadian or anything else.  You're the
    one making this a racial issue.  No one else is.  
    
     
    Steve
    

    re:.several
    Without venturing any opinions into this charged topic, I seem to
    recall seeing the author of .0 mention that he did NOT understand the
    terms of the contract, which were changed in January.  He believed that
    his term of commitment was up, but the new contract in March added a
    new one-year commitment.  Had he signed in December, the terms would
    have been different, as they were in previous years and when his
    friends that he cited last signed.  He seems to have erred in not
    reading the new contract thoroughly before signing.

    Re .91:
    
    So tell me you've searched the US Code for all possible words that
    might have established a commission and directed it to enact (or
    recommend an agency like INS enact) relevant regulations.  The word
    "pregnancy" or "birth" aren't necessarily in the text.  For example,
    there could be regulations for visa programs stipulating that they are
    to be operated to avoid allowing visas to be converted into
    immigration.  Ordinarily, this might mean prohibiting imported
    employees from obtaining permanent resident status or something like
    that.  But consider that a baby born in one of the united states is
    automatically a citizen according to the Constitution, regardless of
    who the parents are.  And being parents of a citizen might confer upon
    the parents certain rights to remain in the country.
    
    So a strict interpretation of such a policy, which says nothing about
    pregnancy or birth, would require the US to require that pregnant
    visiting employees return home.
    
    
    				-- edp
    
    
Public key fingerprint:  8e ad 63 61 ba 0c 26 86  32 0a 7d 28 db e7 6f 75
To get PGP, FTP /pub/unix/security/crypt/pgp23A.zip from ftp.funet.fi.
For FTP access, mail "help" message to DECWRL::FTPmail or open Upsar::Gateways.

    Whether or not it is required by any law, such a contract clause might
    serve to expedite visa issuance, especially for an employer seeking
    visas for a large number of workers.  
    
    \dave

Employees on H-1 visa are required to pay Social Security and Medicare taxes.
These taxes can amount to thousands of dollars per employee per year. If DEIL's
policies are intended to prevent its employees from obtaining permanent residency
and citizenship, then the persons affected cannot claim either social security
or medicare benefits after retirement.

Is there a way, foreign worker (ie a non-US citizen) can get these taxes refunded
when s(he) leaves the country? If not, is DEIL forcing their employees to pay
taxes which it knows they will not benefit from?

    
    Re: .97
    
    >I have just read the base not and I think that it is a total disgrace.
    >I would tell them what to do with their assignements.
    > 
    >A company who issues such directives is not worth working for, this is
    >pure and simple blackmail.
    
    Although I have some disagreement, this is a response which makes 
    some sense to me.  Refusing to agree up front makes lots more sense
    than crying foul about it later.
    
    Steve
    

>   Although I have some disagreement, this is a response which makes 
 >   some sense to me.  Refusing to agree up front makes lots more sense
>    than crying foul about it later.

Sounds like you've never been on an international relo deal.
As I understand it, the guy wasn't shown this contract clause
until he got here.  He'd probably have spent the last few months
basically dismantling his former life (packing stuff to move, to
store, terminating leases and agreements, whatever).   Then when
he got here he was told "sign or go home".  At that point one would
have to have tremendous resolve to refuse to sign this additional
clause - I say "additional" since I expect that he'd previously
signed an agreement to take the job in the USA.   I suppose
he no longer had an open job to go home to; I imagine it 
might even be seen as "resignation", which limits the assistance
you get to return home.

So, yeah, he shouldn't have signed this extra agreement.  But
I bet I would have done in his place, too.   DEC was holding all
the cards at that point.

    
    Re: .99
    
    I may have missed something but I did not understand that he
    was presented with a new clause to sign after he got here.
    I understood that he had assumed that the agreement that he
    would sign would be the same as was signed in cases before,
    but that new or different requirements had been added and
    he went ahead and signed in India without checking to be
    certain that his assumptions were correct i.e. he didn't take
    the time to read the contract.
    
    If he was, indeed, presented with a new clause once he got here
    then that is definitely dirty pool.  If that was the case then
    he has a legitimate gripe.  Such an act would be going beyond
    unethical.
    
    Steve
    
    
    
    

>  I may have missed something but I did not understand that he
>    was presented with a new clause to sign after he got here.

Well, maybe I missed something in the welter of verbiage here,
but there's definitely talk about being put on the next plane
home if he refused to sign.   But maybe that's about signing the 
contract for the next assignment (when he's already been here for
at least one assignment) rather than signing the contract for the
assignment he's just arriving to take up.

I'm sort of losing the thread, actually!

   

    
    
     Organisations will continue to compromise on Humanity ,
    fundamental human decency and Ethics while there are profits 
    to be made , it is also upto the employees to stand upto their
    rights "in time" - unfortunately there are many  who don't
    and "will not" -to get a chance to work in the IT MEcca - USA.
    The " USA syndrome in Indian s/w professionals " is partly 
    to blame (I'm taking an overall perspective - not the base note
    only) for the results. 
    
    	With a very large pool of software professionals and not so many
    GOOD jobs - there is a natural tendency in India to move USwards,
    many compromise for the chance. DEIL - as such exporters go  ("body
    shoppers" they are called in India) - is a VERY good one ,but
    of course there are deficiencies to be made up as this note clearly
    shows up .
    
    "DO it for DOLLARS and to hell with everything else" seems to be the motto
    with everyone.
    
    Can we hope that DEIL will renogotiate this humiliating clause in the
    contract ? There are many ways to achieve an end !!
    
                                                                

    
    Re: 
    
    > It boils down to take it or leave it.
    
    That *is* the fundamental point here and if you choose to take it
    don't cry foul.
    
    Steve
    

    Oh yes I agree entirely. I chose to take it, but am more wary and
    (sadly) cynical since. It doesn't stop me from working responsively and
    responsably, but I wonder if I would be different if that first warm
    rush of delight at the offer hadn't had a bucket of cold water thrown
    over it the instant I walked in the door? 
    
    Perhaps I was naive. Then again, how else do you base a job decision
    except on the written offer and contract? 
    
     c, martin

	Hi Everyone,

		A real happy ending to this note. Yes , the DEIL policy 
	has been changed in favor of the employees. 

		On behalf of all DEIL employees and our families, I would like 
	to thank and appreciate the DEIL management for listening to the 
	employees concerns and making the right decision.
    
		Our special thanks to everyone who voiced their views,
	which were very valuable inputs in making this change happen.

		Manoj is very  happy about this change and here is 
	his reply .

	Regards,
	Ram.

>Hi Ram and Patricia,
>
>	I felt a sense of unparalleled delight and joy, when I heard the
>news about the DEAL policy being modified for good. I am short of words to
>explain how I felt.
>
>	I must also thank you guys and lots others who supported me in
>raising this issue. It also strengthened my believe in DEC being a great
>company and doing the right thing. I miss my days at DEC.
>
>	Petricia, Suman and I had a wonderful baby boy (Sidharth) on 25th
>of Jan. He was 8lbs and 10.5 ozs at birth and is a lot of fun. Sid and
>Suman are doing great.
>
>Thanks,
>Manoj.
>PS: You can put this message out on the net if you like.
>
>

I'm VERY glad that issue was resolved in a satisfactory manner.

Bob

    
    Re: .106
    
    Although I was one of those who felt that DEIL was within its
    rights given the policy, I am glad that the needs of employees
    were considered and that DEIL saw fit to change it.
    Congratulations!
    
    Steve
    

    what exactly was done by the angels ? How did the policy change ? 
    And what are the implications on the   base noter and others in
    similar situations ? 
    
    	Anyone care to illuminate ? 

    DEIL Consultants and their spouses are now able to give birth to their
    children in the U.S., if they so desire.  Prior to the policy change,
    they had to sign employment agreements stating that they (if the
    consultant was female) or their spouse, would return to India to give
    birth.  The only problem remaining is that DEIL has not changed their
    insurance coverage to include medical costs related to pregnancy, which
    is specifically excluded in their insurance coverage.  

    
    Curioser and curioser : 
    
    Can anyone  "afford" to have a baby and resulting/possible health
    complications in the US on DEIL salaries without Insurance support ?  
	
    Or has DEIL found the "clever" solution ? Will say yes but no pay !
    
    

    I can't speak for what others might be doing about this situation, but
    I am working on it.  In my opinion there are still problems with DEIL
    policies and procedures and how the consultants are treated.  More
    change is needed.

    As far as Insurance coverage, All Pregnancy related costs are covered,
    80-20, where the co-insurance in this case will not be reimbursed by
    DEIL. DEIL reimburses 20% of all other valid medical co-insurance
    payments.
    
    DEIL will include the newborns name as a dependant on the employees
    insurance coverage, after the birth.
    
    Hope its clear...
    
    Sujit