Conference 7.286::digital

    I don't know about Crimson or Tobins, but I *am* concerned about
    Digital contracting with outside consultants to do software programming
    for DECworld; specifically, with ALL-IN-1.  Digital is not into
    the food catering business, but I thought we were into software??
    If my family name was "Nike", would I wear "Keds"?
    
    Jon

RE: .-1

	Now THAT is REAL hoot!  I guess the DECworld planners found it was 
cheaper to go outside rather than pay some delivery unit people $89 or $115 
per hour, which is what customers are paying.  And I guess that says there 
aren't many Sales Supporters conversant in ALL-IN-1 programming, or else their 
expense transfer costs were more than the outside vendors' profit price!

    If all you want is a one-shot use-it-and-throw-it-away piece of
    code which requires no further support or enhancements, then a job
    shop will probably serve the purpose.  If you're looking for a
    corporate partnership with long-term implications, then DIGITAL
    Software Services is the better solution.
    
    Whoever chose to hire the outside contractors probably don't care
    whether or not they are in business after September!
    
    Marge

Capitalism suggests that one way to keep your vendors delivering their
best is to occasionally put their contracts out for bid.  An
interesting side effect of this is that you might find someone who
appears better.  Sometimes they may really BE better, but the only way
to find out is to give it them a try. 

What would happen if that office down the street kept its computer
business with 'small' vendors instead of giving 'big' Digital a shot :-) 

re: .4

  >What would happen if that office down the street kept its computer
  >business with 'small' vendors instead of giving 'big' Digital a shot :-) 

We wouldn't be here.  The offices down the street were doing business
with a much larger vendor, and gave small Digital a shot.

This has been going on for a long time now: we changed *to* Crimson
from a smaller agency (and a general use of even smaller local agents
such as Glennon in Maynard).  We also changed to Metropolitan from
Liberty Mutual for insurance, because Liberty wasn't big enough.

Some competition is good, though.  I read somewhere ("Soul of a New
Machine?") that DG has two cafeterias in one of its plants, each
run by different vendors.

M.

  Are there any DEC plants within 20 miles of Maynard that have
Marriott as the caf vendor? I knew Marriott was in the food service
business but this is the first I heard of a Marriott caf at DEC.
  For the last 10 years or so Tobin's has had a virtual monopoly on
DEC cafs in greater Maynard. That's a great story about DG; can
anyone confirm it?

    re: .6
    
    LTN dumped Tobin for Marriott a month or two ago; Marriott also
    handles BXB (Boxboro).
    
    As bad as Tobin was, Marriott is even worse (in terms of both quality
    and price).  The only improvement I've seen is the vending machines,
    and even that is marginal given that they're not fully stocked a
    fair portion of the time.

RE: Data Genral

	Last thing I heard, the Southboro,Mass DG sites have a
collection of fast food outlets (Papa Gino's,Mcd's,Burger King)
in plant.  The idea was put into place as part of DG's "cost cutting"
philosophy.

RE: Tobins

After several survey's in the LTN plants, TOBIN's was booted out and
replaced with Marriot.

    Yup. BXB is Marriott.  Personally prefer the cusine in LKG.
    
    At DG in Westboro we had a pizza shop and a deli.
    
    -k
    

    Part of the problem I was told started when Tobin senior died awile
    back.  Since then, the company has evolved more into just another vendor
    with no special history with DEC, and competition is now coming
    into play.

    	For info on our problems with Crimson Travel, see note 9. in
    DELNI::ON_THE_ROAD.  I've had minor problems with Crimson compared
    to some of the replys to 9.  I have had excellent service from AmEx
    Travel agents, especially the one at Epcot.  KP 7 to select.

    
    In my large field facility, I observe a fair number of employees who
    are actually outside contractor personnel.
    
    I also observe where functions are being jobbed out to contract service
    vendors, and the internal departments eliminated, as for example in
    facilities where a full-time DEC employee who is an architect had her
    job eliminated because of this.
    
    I now read in UPI that Jack Smith says Digital must reduce its
    headcount by 8,000.
    
    I sense that their are lots of contractor "employees" and more outside
    contractor service vendors taking over functions because it's a way
    around "headcount" restrictions.
    
    The end consequence seems to be full-time employees who now have no
    jobs.
    
    I can understand if available people are in Mass/NH and the jobs are in
    the field and the New Englanders won't relocate but my perception is
    that there are lots of contractor employees and contract service
    vendors doing work formerly done by full-timers within Digital even
    within DEC in Mass and NH.
    
    Why can't the full-time 8,000 employees needing jobs be retrained to do
    the work of contractor employees and contract service vendors?
    
    Is the problem unwillingness to relocate to the field?  Is it
    artificial headcount restrictions?  Are the 8,000 incapable of being
    retrained?  Will Digital someday have only one employee and 125,000
    contractor employees?  Do contractor employees and contractor service
    vendors have better loyalty and involvement and commitment to building
    a better and more successful Digital than full-time employees?
    

RE: .12

Actually it seems to me that using contractors in the field makes a lot of 
sense.  It is only recently that the margin requirements have been changed
to make using contractors attractive for the numbers making game.

Basically the field is a body shop just like any other.  When a job comes in
Digital rushes to scrounge up bodies.  The difference is that when the job
is over Digital is stuck with all those bodies.

It makes sense that when a job comes in, Digital goes to a contractor, gets
a body, then resells the body to the customer.  The customer is happy, Digital
is happy, and the contractor is happy.

However, when you talk about certain corporate groups then I'd agree with you
100%.  There are organizations up-north that have armies contractors who have 
worked for years with them.

In the field the contractors are paying for themselves.

John

    re: .14
    you're right, John. Some more information on that: it is a trend
    to use contractors, not only in 'the field', but also for admin.,
    finance, logstics (will be in Germany 100% covered by a general 
    contractor company), educational services (coverage about 40% by
    contractors), EIS: a lot of contractors in the computer centers,
    in the project area.
    The idea behind: to react flexible to the market, BUT: also to
    reduce the headcount (contractors are financially treated as equipment
    like a computer or desk), to reduce the personnel costs.  The last one
    to reduce costs, is always mentioned, but it is not true. We had a
    system manager, who got fired, then, after 4 weeks he came back
    as a contractor, but his income raised by 300%! That couldn't be
    reduction of costs.
    The other problem is: we have a lot of people working together with
    contractors. These contractors have to have 'training on the job',
    so that the employed people will become more ineffective, always doing
    training to someone else (in some areas, like admin and finance, people
    are changing very often). That will produce costs.
    In the last 2 years we (workers council in digital germany) observed
    that a lot of jobs are given away to contractors and it's getting more
    and more. And a lot of things are not any more done in a quality we
    are used to. And I think, that supporting people doing their job to
    sell something to the customer need effective, and high quality
    supportive work to be done for her/him.
    
    Erika

    
    Contracting is the only we can afford to be competitive. I agree with
    .15 that there are problems with contracting for services when we
    should have full time staff to do the job. That is penny wise and pound
    foolish which is something that is going on all to often these days.
    
    Where contracting is right is in the solutions delivery space. First of
    all this business consists of peaks and valleys. No one in todays
    Digital wants to carry the manpower in between projects and sometimes
    we get project that require a superhuman effort to staff if you are
    looking to staff with permanent employees.
    
    On the other hand there is a plethora of people working out of body
    shops. These people are very often excellent programmers (I know I've
    used them) and guess what we can't compete with them on price. An
    Additional bonus for Digital project managers, if your contract person
    is not performing to your expectations send him back. There are dozens
    of body shops that will be happy to source that spot for you.
    
    So if we really want the solutions integration business we should be
    selling the total solution and delivering the PM and the Architect with
    a staff of Temps. 
    
    And Don't fool yourself thinking we can do it any other way. As long as
    we try to delivery everything with permanent staff we're back to
    selling residents.
     

    RE:.15
    
    >>							We had a
    >>system manager, who got fired, then, after 4 weeks he came back
    >>as a contractor, but his income raised by 300%! That couldn't be
    >>reduction of costs.
    
    I thought that this is against company policy, or at least a rule was
    put in place in Germany after a fiasco when an employee left Digital 
    (working in one department) and then came back and worked for another 
    as a contractor, very soon afterwards.
    
    Mind you nothing surprises me when I can remember someone basically
    being kicked out (asked to find another job) and so he left and went to
    work at another DEC office in a different country. I can't believe that 
    checks weren't made to find out reason for move etc. etc. Mind you I'm
    moving away from the subject here.
    
    Dave

I think you're right about the policy of not hiring a contractor for some
amount of time after the employee leaves.

However, I think that only applies to someone who contracts directly with
DEC.  If DEC has a contract with a service company to provide a service,
and a former employee goes to work for the contracting company, there is
nothing DEC can do about it.

/john

	My wife works for a temp agency. DEC has very strict rules about
	who they take even from a third party. The rules forbid sending
	people who took the buy out but not people who were fired with
	cause interestingly enough. DEC is also not willing to pay standard
	fees (which is a disincentive for the agency to do business with
	DEC) but that's a different topic I think.

			Alfred

    re .13

>                     -< Do only that which we do well. >-

    Absolutely. That means whoever does the (quality) job at the least cost
    gets the work, inside or outside.

    That's half the equation. The other half is to find things which are
    traditionally thought of as costs and to make them into profits. For
    example, at Digital, real estate is a "cost." That's fine for plants,
    but doesn't make sense for office buildings. McDonalds, for example,
    runs a real estate division which MAKES money -- millions of dollars
    every year. They own and manage their own real estate as a business, to
    make money. We need more of that kind of thought around here. What are
    the things we do internally that are "costs" that we could make
    _profits_ from if we expanded to provided services outside DEC? (Like,
    own and manage office buildings _for a profit_ in which we have
    offices.)

    /petes