Conference 7.286::digital

    The obvious question is would this be an additional holiday or would
    it replace one of the ones we already have? If the latter, which
    holiday?
    
    An additional holiday would cost a lot of money of course. Replacing
    Patriots Day (location choice day) would not cost as much. I think
    that taking peoples personal day away would not go over too well.
    I doubt you'll see this happen except as a replacement for Patriots
    Day. Personally, while I have great respect for MLK, there are others
    more deserving of a holiday in their honor who I'd like to see honored
    first.
    
    				Alfred

    There is only 1 day per year (2 depending on the day it occurs)
    that Digital honors a person with a holiday. Jesus' birthday is
    the only one so honored.
    
    Other contributors to Armerican history are not so honored; George
    Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Susan Anthony, Claire Booth Luce, Thomas
    Jefferson to name a few.
    
    We celebrate events rather than individuals. The spirit of Martin
    Luther King Jr is, I believe, a thing that deserves consideration.
    
    However, individual recognition is not in the spirit of the themes
    of Valuing Differences, as I see it.
    
    Rich
    

    Does anyone seriously think that Martin Luther King day honors the
    person rather than the ideals and struggles the person exemplified?
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

    RE: .2 & .3
    
    Person or event or struggle there are still people whose contributions
    to the US, to mankind, to peace who are more deserving of recognition.
    This is not SOAPBOX to argue every little nit of wording.
    
    The big issue is should there be a replacement or an additional
    holiday? If so, which? After that, to honor who (or whose work)?
    
    			Alfred

    From a practical standpoint, adding a new holiday, especially one
    so close to the existing Christmas/New Year cluster, would be
    difficult.
    
    I think it would be more practical, and more appropriate, to set
    aside MLK Day as a corporate-wide Valuing the Difference Day.  We
    could have presentations on the topic on that day, instead of spread
    throughout the year.
    
    Of course, if "valuing differences" is just a fad, it might not
    be foresightful to plan activities into the indefinite future...
                   (sound of gauntlet dropping ----^)

     FYI:   DEC has 1 "Location/Plant Choice" Holiday per year.    Boston
     and  Springfield,  MA  both  use  MLK  Day  as their "Location/Plant
     Choice" Holiday, whereas the Greater Maynard Area uses Patriot's Day
     (April 18th for '88) as their "Location/Plant Choice" Holiday.
     
     Therefore, it is up to Plant Management to choose a suitable holiday
     for this purpose.   BTW:   Boston & Springfield were celebrating MLK
     Day as a Holiday for  a  number  of years now, a lot earlier than it
     was declared a Fed Holiday.
     
     I don't see DEC as being  benevolent enough (at this point) to add a
     new holiday.  [If you doubt this, look at the raises/range increases
     for the past few years!  The current  "bean-counters" are making the
     bottom line look good, giving hefty increases to the executives, but
     poor raises to the "working class", thus they are very  unlikely  to
     spend  megabucks  to  celebrate a new holiday!] The answer you would
     probably  get  is  that  you  can  use  your  "Personal  Holiday" to
     celebrate MLK Day if you wish!
     
     If people  feel  strongly about it, they can always pursue the issue
     with their Plant  Manager  and  get  consideration  for changing the
     "Location/Plant Holiday" to MLK Day.
     
     Good Luck!

    Len Segal in .6 has the solution: have the individual sites choose
    their facility day. If my site (ZKO, which currently has no selection)
    chooses MLK's B-day, that's fine with me.

    No, it's not fine with me.
    
    Please do not remove the element of personal choice from yet another
    holiday.  It is very convenient to have what is effectively two
    "personal choice" days at ZK, and if you value my differences from
    other people in when I want time off, don't force me to have one
    of them on the 18th of January.
    
    Personally, I think _all_ paid holidays should be movable, as
    vacation days are.
    
    					-John Bishop

    .5 briefly raised an excellent point: would it not honor Dr. King
    more to have appropriate activities (several, in fact, did take
    place at ZKO this year) than to simply have another day off?  For
    comparison, how many people truly reflect on the meanings of Memorial
    Day, Independence Day, or Labor Day during their day off?  I'd bet
    not too many.

    One item that has not surfaced in this note that is relevent is
    that MLKjr day is NOT recognized as a national holdiay in NH. NH
    is one of 12 states that do not recognize it.
    
    
    

Another vote for scrapping the whole idea.   I like to take my personal holiday
when I want to...not when I'm told to...  That's the whole idea of "personal."

Adding an additional holiday is unlikely to happen, and if it did, I agree with
previous notes that there are other people equally deserving of the honor.

We don't honor many of our countries greatest contributors b-days... why should
we honor MLKjr's?

The whole idea seems a little bigoted, and I think Dr. King would probably be
appalled to think that he was chosen over the likes of George Washington, 
Abraham Lincoln, Franklin D. Roosevelt, etc...

    [Re: .11]:  Frankly, there is something doubleplus ungood about
    the use of the word "bigoted" in the previous reply.  If Dr. King's
    memory is honored to the same degree as that of Washington and Lincoln
    today, that would be fine.  King brought dignity to many millions
    more people than Washington, and he helped finish the work Lincoln
    started.

    Can we afford another holiday?  We are already far behind our global
    competitors in productivity.

    What if it weren't a paid holiday, but some kind of celebration? Right
    now, in our area, I think all that happens is a breakfast somewhere
    else.  I'd love to see some sort of voluntary event at my site! Even
    just a photo exhibit or something. 
    
    Of all the national days, Martin Luther King's birthday probably
    moves me the most.  I feel sad at not having a more public outlet
    than my own home for commemorating it.  I'd certainly attend, maybe
    even get involved in planning.
        
    As for the fact that we don't celebrate every important person's birth,
    that's true, but many of us have a much closer relationship one way or
    the other with the issues that Martin Luther King was dealing with than
    the issues that, say, George Washington dealt with--not to knock George
    of course-- but King was MY contemporary--he changed MY world!  I still
    can't hear his voice and words without getting a lump in my throat. 
         
    I'm not sure that "valuing differences" is the idea at all--in fact,
    I think King's ideas were more about "valuing similarities."  
    
    Nina

    I would much prefer to abolish some of the existing holidays, I
    think there are far too many as it is.  As an example, it is very
    difficult to get things done around the christmas season as the
    days before we take off for chrismas and new year's are totally
    unproductive.  This results in manufacturing organizations
    cramming work into the early part of the month with the attendant
    screw-ups, oversights and poor quality.  I've always felt that
    christmas was something forced down my throat whether i want it
    or not, i don't want another such.  I am also apalled at the
    hype attending christmas spending, it really turns me off and
    dilutes the message of hope and salvation.  I don't think it
    is appropriate for business and goverenment to observe religious
    holidays, but I accept that this nation was founded by refugees
    from religious persecution, so the over-reaction is understandable.
    
    	Mike_the_quality_engineer_who_cleans_up_after_managment_slobs
    

    re: .13
    
    Oh, no, not the productivity ploy!
    
    You might find it interesting to compare the public holiday and
    mandated vacation days in any of your standard Western Democracies,
    except USA, them come back and babble about competeing with others.
    
    /s/ Jim Williams
    
    (sorry if I sound a little harse)

    14 (fourteen) in Germany (though some may fall on a Saturday/Sunday).
    

    re .0 I had monday off - Springfield Plant choice holiday. cold
    rainy day in january. On Patriots Day I will call in sick and go
    fishing with a friend from another plant. As it stands, we get no
    holiday from Jan. 18 to May 30. 4 1/2 months. Does this make any
    sense ? 

        Re: .18
        
>    Patriots Day I will call in sick and go
>    fishing with a friend from another plant. 
        
        This is lying to your manager and stealing from DEC.  I'm
        surprised that you are willing to mention doing this in a
        public conference.  If you want to take the day off then
        take a vacation day. 
        
>    As it stands, we get no
>    holiday from Jan. 18 to May 30. 4 1/2 months. Does this make any
>    sense ? 
        
        Yes, since all of the other DEC holidays are outside of that
        time period.  If you want to take time off between those dates
        then use your personal holiday or take a vacation day. 
        
        					B.J.

    Please refrain from calling proprietary information or private property
    of Digital Equipment Corporation "public".  When you mean "limited to
    the use of Digital employees" use those words.  Use "public" specifically
    to refer to things in which Digital has no ownership interest.

Question:


  What is "patriots day"??  Perhaps commemorating the ill fated trip to the
super bowl!?!?

  *snicker*

(honestly, I've never heard of it)

    It commemerates the confrontation between the Massachusetts colonists
    and British soldiers in Lexington and Concord, the start of the
    Revolutionary War.
    
    The poet called it "the shot heard 'round the world".
    
    It rates right up there with 'Evacuation Day', the day Howe and
    crew left Boston.  Great holiday, since it falls on St. Patrick's
    Day.

    
<    It rates right up there with 'Evacuation Day', the day Howe and
<    crew left Boston.  Great holiday, since it falls on St. Patrick's
<    Day.


St Patrick's Day is March 17, Patriot's Day is April 19.

><    It rates right up there with 'Evacuation Day', the day Howe and
><    crew left Boston.  Great holiday, since it falls on St. Patrick's
><    Day.

>St Patrick's Day is March 17, Patriot's Day is April 19.

It's Evacuation Day that falls on St. Patrick's day.

    I'm just a no 'count contractor, so I don't get ANY holidays, but
    here's my opinion anyhow!
    
    It seems to me that the original intent of all the holidays was
    to free people who celebrate them from work so they COULD celebrate
    them.  One place I used to work in Michigan gave Christians Christmas
    off and Jews took Hanukkah.  (Everybody else usually took Christmas,
    out of tradition.)  You got Good Friday afternoon ONLY if you were
    going to church.
    
    Vets seem to be the only ones very much interested in the intent
    of Memorial Day, and I guess the AFL-CIO might do something on Labor
    Day...I never noticed.
    
    My point is that nearly all of us now take holidays for granted
    as paid days off without much other meaning.  My suggestion is to
    reconsider what that time is for in the real world as well as in
    the ideal.  I don't think it makes sense for employees to forfeit
    what has become a standard benefit, but I also don't see that a
    corporation should have to pay for increasing numbers of unpaid
    work days.  
    
    One suggestion I have considered is that instead of celebrating
    holidays by having days off at work, that we do something at work
    (an hour of presentations plus displays, perhaps) to celebrate ANY
    important holiday, declared or otherwise.  Then, to make up for
    the time off, maybe we could have one long weekend every other month
    or something to spread "holidays" out to be the "R & R" most of us
    really need!  These could be adjusted or combined with the holidays
    we really do take off in the proper spirit...Independence Day and
    Thanksgiving, for example.
    
    Meanwhile, for all of you who get upset over these things, just
    remember your poor unfortunate collegues who are paid hourly and
    get NO paid time off, for vacation, sickness (real or pretend),
    OR holidays (chosen or mandatory.)  ;^) ...(sigh)
    
    And have a happy ... whatever!       
    
    Sherry

	I have posted in my office a calendar entitled "Digital 1988
	US Holiday Schedule" which lists both December 23 and December 26
	as US holidays in 1988. If we wished to celebrate MLK's birthday,
	we could shift one of those days, thereby solving the "do we add
	another vacation day, use a location choice or personal choice
	holiday, or not celebrate some other holiday" problem.

	However, I agree with the earlier respondents who observed that 
	there are other Americans who are more deserving of being 
	remembered with a holiday.

	I also agree with the earlier respondents who stated that all
	holidays should be personal choice. Personally, I'd be in favor
	of the following four holidays being observed nationally, because they
	have national meaning, and are non-sectarian:

		July 4		Signing of the Declaration of Independence
		Memorial Day 	Tribute to those who gave their life in 
				 service to the country
		Veteran's Day	Tribute to those who served in the Nation's
				 Armed Forces
		Thanksgiving 	National day of Thanksgiving

	Then leave the balance of holidays to be observed by those for
	whom the holiday has meaning.


						Tom_K

Since NIO (and most of NH I think) has no location choice day, we get to 
choose our own. Personally, I want to keep it that way. I would rather
pick my own day than HAVE to take yet another holiday during this time
of year, even tho' MLK's and my birthday fall on the same day.

Jenna

    Probably off the subject but I wish they would give us off Dec 27
    instead of Dec 23 so that one could take 3 vacation days and get
    a whole week off.

    Why have a location day at all? Why not just have another personal
    choice day?  
    
    It's not like we all go off and have a picnic together or whatever
    on the site holiday--what's the relationship between the site and
    the holiday?  Feels like someone "up there" is just making another
    arbitrary decision that I could well make myself.
    
    Nina

    	I think all the holidays should be recognized with a day off.
    
    New Years		Martin Luther King	Abraham Lincoln
    Valentine's		George Washington	Ash Wednesday
    St. Patrick's	Palm Sunday 		Patriots
    Passover		Good Friday		Easter
    Mothers day		Armed Forces		Memorial
    Flag 		Fathers day		Canada Day		
    Independence	Labor			Rosh Hashanah		
    Yom Kipper		Columbus		United Nations		
    Halloween		Election Day		Veterans		
    Thanksgiving	Hanukkah		Christmas
    
    A whole month of holidays, those that fall on a weekend can be observed
    on the following monday, those during the week on the preceding
    monday.  Did I leave any out?  There must be about 335 more I didn't
    think of.		
    

    Just because Digital (and many other corporations) give their employees
    eleven paid holidays or so, doesn't mean there are only a dozen
    holidays.  I was reminded of this when I got home last night and
    saw the uncollected garbage on our street.  The garbage collectors
    didn't pick it up because they're on a holiday week schedule.  I
    didn't get my mail on Monday, either.  My son wasn't in school Monday.
    
    How many holidays a company grants is strictly a labor/management
    agreement.  It's not "right" or "wrong" to have more (or less).
    I know that Ford Motor employees have had a truly staggering number
    of holidays in their contract, upwards of *forty*, that virtually
    gives them a four-day work week.  What that has done to their
    productivity I needn't mention, but the compensation world does
    not revolve around what high-tech does.
    
    By the way, a respondent suggested that ten holidays was somehow
    wasteful, and that our productivity was sagging because of it. 
    Perhaps I missed a smiley face buried in the note; but I do think
    I caught a faint odor of burning insulation, as if that poor noter's
    circuits were quietly frying.  I think someone should post a few
    studies noting the relationship between "24 x 7" work habits and
    burnout.

    Maybe this nit is adding fuel to the flames, but Hanukkah is not
    one of the Jewish holidays when a Jew is not supposed to work and
    is supposed to spend the whole day in prayer with the congregation
    - it is a very minor holiday, and even the most observant people
    (I am a liberal, myslef) work during it.  I'd rather get Yom Kippur,
    Rosh Hashanah (which is 2 days, unless you're in Israel), the first
    two days of Passover, and the first days of Shavuot and Sukkot -
    and the really strict people (like some of my relatives) would take
    the first two days of Shavuot and Sukkot, and the last day of them
    as well as the last day of Passover, and all the minor fast days
    - as it is, I use five days of vacation time in order to join my
    congregation at prayer, less whichever of them already fall on a
    weekend. Not so bad now that I get lots of vacation time (I've worked
    here for more than 12 years), but tough when I only got ten days
    to begin with - a person needs a "vacation" after a while, and spending
    the whole day in schul praying isn't hardly a vacation.
    
    

    
    	What if (to borrow a phrase from HP) we changed the "location
    	choice" day to an "employee choice" day? That way, the progressive
    	thinkers could take MLK day off, and on Patriots day they could
    	come into the office for a workday free of the odious presence
    	of the far-right-wingers and superpatriots, who of course would
    	choose that day for their holiday!
    						 &*) 
    
    	But, seriously, DEC would enjoy productivity for *both* days,
    	and the employees would have the ability to choose, perhaps
    	even alternate year-to-year.
    
    	I support the MLK holiday, but would not want my position
    	forced upon others whose  social views differ from mine. 
    	In any case, January in New England is a rather bleak time
    	for a holiday. The skies are gray, the roads are gray, the
    	cars are gray, even the people turn a little gray. It's cold
    	and there isn't much to do. Persons with no particular preference
    	for either day would probably prefer the April holiday, and
    	choose accordingly.
    
    {Neal}

    Do away with the all the holidays and give them to us a vacation
    days.  Since you can accumulate 2x your vacation time by saving
    up one could get LONG vacations.  Lets see, every 2 years I could
    take the whole summer off (* 2 (+ 5_vac_wks 2_holiday_wks)).  Now
    that sounds like FUN!

.29>    Why have a location day at all? Why not just have another
.29>    personal choice day? 

    	For the same reason we work Monday through Friday and get Saturday
    and Sunday off.  It saves the company money to know that a facility
    is officially closed for a day.  If a day isn't an official holiday,
    then it has to be treated as an ordinary weekday, when the following
    have to be provided at a facility:
    
    	o  Full power and lighting
    	o  Secretarial, clerical, personnel, and other support staff
	o  Cafeteria 
    	o  Shipping/receiving
    	o  Full security instead of skeleton staff 
    	o  Many more you can probably think of    	

    In the specific example, Patriots' Day, enough people would take
    the day off anyway that it is in Digital's interest to declare it
    a holiday at most Massachusetts sites.  
    
    		David

Re .30:

Don't forget Arbor Day.

Re .33:

Is sliming people who take Patriot's Day off a component of Digital's Valuing
Differences policy?
				/AHM

    Re: .36 flaming at .33
    
    It sure appeared that the author of .33 made it quite clear that
    his comments were facetious.  I sure value YOUR differences and
    maybe even his.  It's all those other people out there that I can't
    stand.
    
    It seems like valuing differences could be achieved with less pain.
    
    I suggest that we all work on working together and stay happy.
    
    But then I'm known for being weird,
    
    Don

Re .37:

I guess it wasn't quite so clear then, was it?
				/AHM/SIGH

Fact:  MLK day is a Federal holiday.
Fact:  DEC does not observe all Federal holidays.  DEC does not observe MLK day,
       President's Day, Columbus Day, or Veteran's Day.  DEC observes all other
       Federal holidays and provides four additional holidays, two assigned on
       a corporate basis (the day after Thanksgiving and one additional day at
       Christmas or New Year's), one assigned by location or given as a personal
       day, and one personal day.

Discussing whether DEC should observe MLK day instead of or in addition to one
of the existing holidays is a valid topic for this conference.

Some discussion of the relative social importance of Dr. King and the others
who are or are not honored by DEC is possible as well, but only if directly
relating to DEC and its holidays.

Most of this discussion belongs in Soapbox, not here.  Unless it directly
relates to a discussion of DEC holidays, it will be hidden, as I have done with
Maggie's note, to allow the poster to put the note into Soapbox.

/john

    
    	Too bad note .39 is set hidden. It must have been a doozy!
    
    	Regarding .37, the (	&*)	) is my representation of
    	a smile and a wink (&). Also, the asterisk looks more like
    	my schnoz than does the caret (^). My references to the
    	kind of people who would choose Patriots day over MLK day
    	were intended as a playful poke at some of the more reactionary
    	contributors to these notes conferences, like the Great Bear,
    	for instance. Sorry if I poked too hard!
    
    {Neal}

    I concur with the moderator actions in this case.  This is NOT soapbox
    and this conference should not be used to discuss the relative merits
    of people who do or do not have holidays in their honour.  Maggie's
    note was fairly innocuous as she says but it didn't deal at all
    with Digital and only discussed MLK and his contributions to the
    plight of a large segment of the population of the USA.  It was
    a good note but not for here, in my opinion.
    
    I have reread note .26 and believe it to be a good note, other than one
    paragraph saying that others deserve holidays more than MLK. It offers
    a good idea of having 'generic' holidays for Digital.  These person
    specific holidays seem to cause more pain and flames than they do to
    honour the memory and accomplishments of the people after which they
    are named. 
    
    Clearly, it's very hard to not get emotional on a subject like this
    one as the activity level shows.  I hate to add to the noise level
    but wish to point out that we should try harder to understand each
    other so that we can work and thrive together.
    
    Keep the faiths,
    
    Don

   RE: .42 and .43
    
    These replies to this topic were set hidden by me. Once again, if
    you have material that is better slated to BETHE::SOAPBOX, there
    is a topic in that conference to address those issues.  
    
    If you question why any of the moderators have done something, please
    send mail to that moderator.  John Covert explained himself very
    well, however if a followup was needed, it would have been provided.
    
    Also, the two hidden replies refered to a reply in this topic that
    was deleted, I'd rather have this topic stay within what requested:

    Discussing whether DEC should observe MLK day instead of or in
    addition to one of the existing holidays is a valid topic for this 
    conference.

    Some discussion of the relative social importance of Dr. King and the others
    who are or are not honored by DEC is possible as well, but only if directly
    relating to DEC and its holidays.

    
    If you have any other questions, please refer to reply .40 of this
    topic.
    
    Gale

    
    	First of all, I guess the idea of an employee-choice
    	is pretty goofy, when you look a t it from the administrative
    	side. (it's not my first goofy idea, either!) If only three
    	persons were going to take one day and the rest of the world
    	another, it wouldn't be worth opening up the factory or office
    	or whatever.
    
    	If there is a policy or implicit policy against having  a
    	holiday in a person's honor, (except religious holidays)
    	then it's understandable that MLK day would come under that
    	policy.
    
    	I kinda feel responsible for a lot of the acrimony that has
    	stirred up in this topic. Guess I've been reading soapbox
    	too much. To everyone I've upset, I apologize.
    
    {Neal}