Conference 7.286::digital

    
    " speak to 100 researchers at ATT..." well I wonder if his motive
    was to tell us the two creativities where we are weak or to see the
    one where we are strong. If the former, he should have spoke to
    100 marketing managers, etc., no I bet he was more interested in
    superconductivity and other ATT projects.
    
     I would be interested in hearing some frank talk about his (JAPAN)
    marketing creativity - product dumping on foreign markets to gain 
    market share and eliminate competitors, Congressional lobbying to 
    prevent import quotas, protectionism at home to prevent foreign
    product entry, a national industrial policy. I'd also like to hear 
    his thoughts regarding marketing creativity on how a technical superior 
    product BETAMAX failed, while a repackaged old transistor radio WALKMAN 
    succeeded - a proprietary standard , a new old standard.
    
     What was quoted just states the obvious, a product must be well
    designed, well manufactured, and well marketed for success, thank
    you for a common-sense summary of Management 101. Why do we need
    to hear such obvious and superficial advice from competitors? Are
    we that incompetent?
    
     As to how to create superior creativity in technology this has
    been discussed for years in notesfiles with little result, why
    can't we listen to own people. Anyway, here is my incomplete hit list 
    of internal solutions (external solutions such as university programs, 
    alliances with other companies, I'll leave to others) -
    
       1. graduated recognition and reward scale for midnite projects
       2. employee purchase program - some $$ limit per year per employee
    	   but allow purchase of any DEC product at transfer cost. Don't
    	   give me the usual phony excuses on this, I'm tired of them.
       3. reduce internal education costs, why can't I borrow a VHS
          tape on say VAX debugging tools, Using UIL, Programming
          Postscript FREE for a week.
       4. open systems BOTH software AND hardware.
    	 4a. open minds and methods ( don't limit me by restricting my
             resources to only VMS, only some DEC-inhouse graphic system,
    	     some DEC,non-industry standard user interface,... I want
             to develop competitive tools.)
       5. a realistic reward program for patents, papers, professional
          committee membership, also cut the legal crap on this.
       6. Even though we have too many committees and too much red tape,
          create a corporate engineering review committee. Twice in my 10 
          years, I have encountered gross engineering incompetence but with
          no recourse - in DEC, the testimony of incompetents wins over
          the facts, five dinks say the sky is green and you show its
    	  blue, the outcome is the sky is green. And this whistleblowing,
          just gets you nailed at review time ("bad attitude", "not a team
          player",...) so no recourse plus an economic penalty for "doing
    	  the right thing" kills employee pride in doing just competent
    	  work let alone creative work.   
       7. Streamline the Phase Review Process - it's a good idea that
          got fat, no make that obese.
       8. realize that the E-NET is an important engineering resource
          and monitor network uptime and access times. I'd like to
          see a fault tolerant network with shadow notesfiles, too often
    	  important notesfile are inaccessable. ( Don't asked me how
          my productivity has been reduced by !$@%#%$^$& LAVC's.)  
       9. Employee management reviews. I think the grunts know better
          who the ineffective and incompetent managers are. And with
          this there should be a retry program, i.e., good engineers 
    	  who don't make it as managers get help going back to be
          good engineers without penalty.
    
    my $0.02 of bad attitude today,
    clay
    
    
    
        

    Re: .1 (Yost):
    
    
    >> What was quoted just states the obvious, a product must be well
    >> designed, well manufactured, and well marketed for success, thank
    >> you for a common-sense summary of Management 101. Why do we need
    >> to hear such obvious and superficial advice from competitors? Are
    >> we that incompetent?
    
    In broad terms?  Well, yes.
    
    I used to work for the company that bought, through acquisition, the
    market leader (both technology and share) in minicomputers.  The market
    leader was Computer Controls Corporation.  The new parent company
    evaluated the technology, saw that it didn't fit well with the "core
    businesses," didn't see a lot of potential in the small margins of
    minis, and said, "Naaaaah!"
    
    I'm also reminded of the man who invented the xerographic process, who
    spent a decade wandering in the wilderness, trying to sell his idea to
    every large corporation in America.  Everyone turned him down, because
    they saw no market for photocopies when everyone used carbon paper.
    (Thank God IBM said no!  Can you imagine what their size would be now
    had they cornered that market?)  Finally, a tiny photographic paper
    company in New York bought in to the idea, and literally spent their
    last dollar of capital trying to create a marketable photocopier. 
    Their last gasp was the Xerox 914, which recouped ten more years of R&D
    in twelve months and still operates at some sites today, almost thirty
    years later.  (Talk about your cash cows!)
    
    What goes around comes around. Steve Jobs was successful when he toured
    the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center, but he wanted a new triumph.  He
    was shown the Xerox Star, a machine that featured a direct-manipulation
    interface with icons, windows, and menus.  The Xerox reps said they had
    never figured out what to do with the ideas embodied in the Star, and
    that it would take many years to bring it to market, if one even
    existed.  Steve Jobs said he could bring such a computer to the market
    in two years and sell it for under $2000, and asked to license the
    technology.  They told him he was a crazy man, but they took his money
    and wished him well. (Note: This matter is now under litigation rbought
    by a [possibly jealous?] Xerox, so my recounting is strictly a personal
    interpretation.)
    
    	The rest, as they say, is history.

   Even the three types of creativity that were mentioned in Morita's book
   have to be taken in the context of what products we are talking about,
   the nature of such products etc.. They are applicable only in such cases
   and other similar cases. Let me explain why I think so. Before that
   there is another type of creativity that's totally ignored:

               "Market Needs Projection Creativity"

   The traditional model of visiting research labs, taking existing research
   breakthroughs, finding a use for them, creating a product and marketing it
   successfully works very well with products whose function is fairly
   standardized.e.g., A television has a very well-defined function and
   clearly definable attributes; good pictures, reliable performance and
   service available easily (but make the product so good that it's less 
   expensive to buy a new one rather than repair one). You can substitute "cars"
   in the above statements and they still holds true. The Japanese have been
   good at following this model; cameras, VCR's, cars, etc..

   However, I believe in the coming years, working backwards from needs that
   exist today and "might exist tomorrow" is more important than anyother
   approach especially in the area of information management.This is more
   so because each customer's needs are unique and he buys a unique product
   from DIGITAL everytime. It falls in the realm of software where zillions
   of symbols put together in different ways form different products. Functions
   are not very well defined as in Hardware (like a television).

   Here the key
   is taking into account a variety of different factors before making a 
   product and marketing it. SONY's BETA standard didn't fail because it was
   technologically flawed. It failed because a majority of other manufacturers
   chose VHS and you could use the same tape in all of them. For all its
   extremely good user interface, the Mac still lags very much behind the IBM
   PC only because of IBM's encouragement of clones. With the availability of
   so much application software readily available, users would choose an IBM
   PC because a Mac without the application software is of no use. In other
   words, in areas where software is involved (Information management, in the
   larger sense) if the underlying needs are not taken care of, existing
   user-base is not considered, having good hardware is of no use.

   DIGITAL has been practising this kind of creativity for a long time.
   We had the foresight to make all our machines "upward compatible" and
   had the foresight to see the need for ONE NETWORKING STRATEGY, 
   DISTRIBUTED PROCESSING and of late, OPEN SYSTEMS and U*IX. It's time
   to even move further. In the next century, companies that specialize in
   satisfying Information Management Needs totally for specific industries may
   do better than companies that go the Morita route and sell "Fast Hardware,
   Application Software and Telephone Support". DIGITAL manages KODAK's
   telecom operations now totally; Application Development, maintenance,
   purchase of hardware/software; everything. DIGITAL takes care of KODAK's
   information needs and does not sell MIPS anymore. Why should the
   customer care anyway if his operation runs smoothly and he gets the
   information he needs in the right form everyday.

   That's the wave of the future, I think.

   Nari

re: .1,
    
       1. graduated recognition and reward scale for midnite projects

    	Good idea.  The problem is that midnight projects are, by virtue,
    products of anarchy.  Anarchy threatens the established beaurocracy within
    digital and is therefore feared (or at least misunderstood) by management.

    	The ASSETS program is perhaps the closest thing in existence to such a
    recognition and reward scale for midnight projects, but it needs much more
    backing before it will ever be considered an effective program.

       2. employee purchase program - some $$ limit per year per employee
    	   but allow purchase of any DEC product at transfer cost. Don't
    	   give me the usual phony excuses on this, I'm tired of them.

    	Right!  Think of all of the internal software which would magically
    materialize if our employees had better access to digital equipment at
    home.  Whether it is on loan or purchased is a moot point, let's get the
    equipment out there so that it proliferates quality software!

       3. reduce internal education costs, why can't I borrow a VHS
          tape on say VAX debugging tools, Using UIL, Programming
          Postscript FREE for a week.

    	Ah, but you would threaten the business of the DEC Educational Services
    Empire by borrowing video tapes like that!  ;^)

       4. open systems BOTH software AND hardware.
    	 4a. open minds and methods ( don't limit me by restricting my
             resources to only VMS, only some DEC-inhouse graphic system,
    	     some DEC,non-industry standard user interface,... I want
             to develop competitive tools.)

    	Well, I think the problem here is that there just isn't enough
    software to choose from internally.  I don't think that going outside
    for software (or hardware) is necessarily the best answer.  You can easily
    become too dependent upon another company (many times our own competitors)
    when you do this.  Do you truly think a competitor will respond to your
    business needs?  You can bet that when push comes to shove, an outside
    vendor is going to respond to the needs of number one first.

    	On the other hand, if you use internally developed products, you
    kill two birds with one stone: (1) you get to provide more input to the
    development of the product and can tailor it to suit your business needs,
    (2) You help to create a better digital product.  The problem is that you
    are a guinea pig in this situation (what did you expect for free?).

    	The solution to this problem then, might be to devise some sort of
    system which encourages the use of internal products.  Imagine some sort
    of sharing of the profits of an internal product by those who help to
    field test and otherwise provide input to the development of the internal
    product.

       5. a realistic reward program for patents, papers, professional
          committee membership, also cut the legal crap on this.

    	Patents should be rewarded.  Papers generally provide recognition
    but alot of written material generally goes unrewarded (take notesfiles
    for example).  Professional committee memberships...well, I personally
    know of a few people who spend an inordinate amount of time at such
    professional committees (with relatively little to show for it in return).
    What makes matters even worse is that many times the hard-working productive
    employees - the classic Cinderellas (the ones who would be most useful
    in such a committee) are rarely the ones who get to go.  Perhaps a
    program which provided memberships to professional committees as rewards
    for work well done would be appropriate?

       6. Even though we have too many committees and too much red tape,
          create a corporate engineering review committee. Twice in my 10 
          years, I have encountered gross engineering incompetence but with
          no recourse - in DEC, the testimony of incompetents wins over
          the facts, five dinks say the sky is green and you show its
    	  blue, the outcome is the sky is green. And this whistleblowing,
          just gets you nailed at review time ("bad attitude", "not a team
          player",...) so no recourse plus an economic penalty for "doing
    	  the right thing" kills employee pride in doing just competent
    	  work let alone creative work.   

    	There should be a reward mechanism for spotting "Naked Emperors"
    which would provide individuals assistance in scrutinizing such band-
    wagons and/or witch-hunts which insist upon green skies and such.

       7. Streamline the Phase Review Process - it's a good idea that
          got fat, no make that obese.

    	Hence the proliferation of "midnight hacks".  Why is it that many
    times, good products magically appear out of thin air?  Perhaps if there
    were varying levels of the phase review process (from intense down to
    modicum scrutiny) depending upon the scale, criticality, and estimated
    profitability of the given product being developed.  For example, is it
    necessary to spend as much time reviewing an application program as it
    is to review the software system which is to run such applications?

       8. realize that the E-NET is an important engineering resource
          and monitor network uptime and access times. I'd like to
          see a fault tolerant network with shadow notesfiles, too often
    	  important notesfile are inaccessable. ( Don't asked me how
          my productivity has been reduced by !$@%#%$^$& LAVC's.)  

    	Once again, there is unfortunately little in the way of rewarding
    those of us who (1) manage (2) moderate (3) write & reply (4) read
    the notesfiles to begin with.  It is even harder to try and justify
    the maintenance of resources whose sole purpose are to share information
    with other groups when the very internal structure of DEC discourages
    the free sharing of information and resources with other groups.

    	I think it is high time that we took a long hard look at the value
    of information which is contained in the notesfiles.  We (as well as the
    rest of the computer world) desperately need to develop a way of dealing
    with information resources (such as that which is typically found in a
    notesfile) as a commodity.  For example, imagine a notesfile which charges
    by the minute, or perhaps by the information extracted.  We are, after all,
    entering the "information age" are we not?

    	Either we need to establish a means of selling and/or trading our
    information resources among groups, or we need to simply tear down the
    cost center walls which currently divide us and share all information
    (along with all other resources which we currently charge each other for)
    equally with other groups.  I personally don't know which is the better
    idea, but we need to chose one or the other because we are currently trying
    to do both at the same time, and many people are being screwed in the
    process of trying to provide information for free (I plan to start a
    whole seperate topic on this, so keep your eyes peeled for a note entitled
    something to the effect of "Information sharing...").

       9. Employee management reviews. I think the grunts know better
          who the ineffective and incompetent managers are. And with
          this there should be a retry program, i.e., good engineers 
    	  who don't make it as managers get help going back to be
          good engineers without penalty.

    	There is definately a managerial caste system which has crept its way
    into digital over the years (power corrupts).  There should at least be an
    abolishment of the 2-year committment policy as this would allow employees
    to vote with their feet.  The good managers would then be among the ones
    who are able to retain employees the longest and hold turnover to a minimum.
    As it is now, employees are treated like endentured servants or slaves to
    a given cost center and such bad managers are seldom exposed because the
    new hires to a given group are never warned up front about the problem
    (especially since those leaving need to help find someone to replace
    themselves before they can leave - so they rarely tell either).

    				    -davo

    Japan spends as much as US on R&D. It is a common misunderstanding that
    Japan copies US technology and then dumps it here. (few exceptions). 
    You can't blame them for low costs due to vertical integration.
    You can't blame them for low capital costs or excellent work ethic. 
    BTW their labor costs are as high as ours. While Japan's R&D is
    almost equally split between product and process research, most
    research $$ in US go into product R&D. And all the Japanese have to do
    is license that US technology, apply their knowledge gained from process R&D
    and walla! they have a better and cheaper product. America is running out
    of excuses and is becoming a cry baby. The fact is that the Japanese
    compete on product value strategy. If US is to beat japanese, they have
    to invest in process technology and the science of innovation.
    
    Anil. 

re: .5,

>    While Japan's R&D is
>    almost equally split between product and process research, most
>    research $$ in US go into product R&D. And all the Japanese have to do
>    is license that US technology, apply their knowledge gained from process R&D
>    and walla! they have a better and cheaper product.

	All the more reason people need an organized method of holding onto
    (as well as being credited for) their ideas.  An info-store could provide
    DEC with an internal idea evaluation mechanism (sort of a pre-test-market
    for ideas being discussed).

>    America is running out
>    of excuses and is becoming a cry baby. The fact is that the Japanese
>    compete on product value strategy. If US is to beat japanese, they have
>    to invest in process technology and the science of innovation.

	Consider the idea of closely tracking each idea (no matter how
    insignificant).  By doing this, the good ideas would soon be recognized
    and capitalized on by using the simple laws of supply and demand.  Place
    all potentially valuable ideas for sale in an information network, and
    analyze which ones sell and why...

				    -davo

    Why not getting serious about taking the Japanese example ?

    1. Request a 50% salary cut ( convince your children about it as well).
    Japanese have sacrificed two generations of workers and only now get
    sort of decent pay.

    2. Get a bed into your office and use it ( at nights .-)

    3. Stop writing notes in this conference, maybe an occasional greeting
    from a happy employee. One of the basis for Japanese miracle is
    strong social cohesion and being a happy part of the happy 
    social/company clockwork.

    4. Forget labor day weekend and all this nonsense. Two weeks vacation
    is already too much. Force yourself to stay away from the job for just
    a week.

    	Giving all us others an example to follow is much stronger message
    then just bashing in notes ( for free ).

    						wlodek

    RE: .7
    
    Can I use Germany as an example instead of Japan?  
    
    - Vikas

re .7:
    1 - Japanese salaries are higher than US, currently.
    	The Japanese have recently been building cars in the US,
    	for export to third countries.  US labor is cheap by their
    	standards now, and can't be all that unproductive, or they would
    	not use it.
    
    2,3,4 - I don't think that the Japanese really all work all the time.
    	    Where do all the Japanese tourists come from?
    	    US Management would like to convince the workforce that this
    	    is the case, that it's all our fault for wanting to actually
    	    have a life outside of work.  The Japanese may encourage this
    	    belief also, since it makes them seem invincible.
    
    Remember, Japan spends only about 1% of its GNP on defense.
    Nearly all of its R&D is of a civilian nature.
    In the US, we spend far more of our GNP on defense,
    and nearly all of our R&D is for defense.

    re .7

    Japanese salaries may be higher, but everything is expensive in Japan,
    even for the Japanese.

    The Japanese _do_ work all the time. Relentlessly. [My wife is 
    responsible for a securities clearing operation in Tokyo.]
    Do you know they work 1/2 day on Saturday? That the "corporate" culture
    is to work like a dog all day, then go to dinner with your co-workers or
    potential business partners to build personal relationships, smoke like
    a chimmney and drink like a fish?

    You can't have any concept of what it's like to work or live in Japan
    unless you've experienced it.

    As for tourists and defense spending... I do get somewhat upset when I
    see Japanese secretaries walking in and out of Fifth Avenue boutiques
    here in New York, laden with shopping bags. But, on the other side, they
    pay for that privilege at home it by having a society which provides for
    full employment -- a society where everything is expensive and families
    save for the future by having three generations live together in space
    we would not consider adequate for a couple.

    It is true that the playing field is a lot more level here for the Japanese
    dealing in the U.S than for U.S. firms dealing in Japan. But that's another
    discussion that touches a lot of cultural issues.

    /Petes

>    Japanese salaries may be higher, but everything is expensive in Japan,
>    even for the Japanese.

	I have lived in the States for five years.
	Since coming back to Japan eight months ago I have
	quit trying to calculate how much dollars everything I buy in
	yen would be.

	The reason:  I'm tired of realizing that I'm paying about
	the double for *everyting* I buy.  the only thing I have found
	cheaper here is the cleaners. . .

	I can save half of my salary for the rest of my life and it will
	not buy me a three bedroom shack in the Tokyo area.  Did you know
	that you can get loans now that your children are obligated to
	pay?

>    The Japanese _do_ work all the time. Relentlessly. [My wife is 

	I work all the time.  Its one way to make ends meet.  Also
	DEC-J is so short of people . . .

	Tim Aihara

	... from the WSJ, I think, that talked about the Japanese government's
Commission set up to find ways to get the Japanese workers to take more time
off from work?

	To paraphrase it: "The good news is the Japanese government is serious
about getting the people to work less; the bad news is, the Commission is having
to work overtime to get the job done!"

	Anyone know if this Commission is still around?  :>)

    re .11, loans your children must pay
    
    How is this legally possible?  The children aren't competent
    to sign up for a loan in Japan, are they?  Or can you actually
    force your children to bear an obligation?  Or are we just
    talking about 60-year mortgages?
    
    			-John Bishop

>    re .11, loans your children must pay

I heard something about this, too, but I can't remember the context.  So
I'll just fan the rumor a little.

It certainly seems possible to me, though.  After all, we're doing it to
our own children.  But as a society - not individuals.  Looked at the
national debt lately.  Expect we'll pay it off in our lifetimes?

-steve-

    My observations about Japan:
    
    	a.  They have a term for "death from overworking"
    	b.  Their managers are paid alot less than our managers.
    	c.  Going to Hawaii for vacation is a bargin for most Japanese
    	    (the average Japanese tourist spends $500/day while the 
    	     average American spends $100/day {for incidentals})
    	d.  The U.S. economy thrives on war, the Japanese have
    	    a small defense force.
    	e.  The Japanese culture is hundreds of years old, the U.S.
    	    is a baby by comparison.
    	f.  If what I saw on a PBS special is true, the Japanese banking
    	    system is controlled by former samari families.  To me this
    	    equates to "well managed, disciplined, deadly serious business
    	    dealings" (the samaris took over this function when they lost
    	    their former roles).
    	g.  Chopsticks are more advanced than the fork  (When used in this
    	    context, this statement is an abstraction).  Think about it.
    	h.  For most of this century and last century, Japan has controlled
    	    the far east.
    	i.  Many of Japan's natural resources are depleted (they get
    	    chopsticks from the Pacific North West of the U.S.)
    	j.  The U.S. did not invent the Walkman, 8mm Handycam, Acura NSX,
    	    or Mitsubishi 35 inch color stereo television.
    	k.  Japan did not invent cheerleaders, MTV, convertable Cadillacs,
    	    panty raids, chocolate chip cookies, Elvis, Carson, Bacall,
    	    K. Olsen, Warhol, M. Jackson, the barbie doll, M. Monroe,
    	    clustered 32-bit VAX computers, the Starwars Movie series,
    	    or big, sloppy, greasy MacDonalds Quarterpounders with cheese
            (would you like fries or an apple pie with that Sir?  Oh I just
    	    love your 'Vette).  Oh, I forgot nuclear power and ring laser
    	    gyro navigation system on Boeing 747 SPs.
    
    Inspite of all of their economic advances, most American's probably
    have more desirable life styles (e.g., try to buy a plot of land
    for your dream house in Japan, it's probably impossible.  See note
    .11).
    
    The U.S. and Japan are totally interdependent.  Gen Douglas MacArthur
    wanted it that way.
    
                                                           
    P.S. QUIT CRYING IN YOUR BEER AND GET TO WORK!!!!!!!!!!
                                                     

    >>        i.  Many of Japan's natural resources are depleted (they get
    >>            chopsticks from the Pacific North West of the U.S.)
    
    
    According to a recent report by mumble Forestry Industry group,
    published in business section of Toronto Star a cupla weeks ago:
    
    	42 % of japanese chopstick imports come from Canada (BC)
        27 %	"	"	"	"	"    US (PNW)
        most of the rest (of imports) come from South America, or
    	Pacific Rim countries.
    
    Also in the report was toothpicks & matches, etc.

    	The US didn't invent Barbie dolls either.  If I remember correctly,
    	the idea was bought from a bar (or a manufacturer that sold to
    	bars) in Germany where these dolls were dressed in scanty lingerie 
    	and left on the tables and bar as decorative ornaments for the 
    	entertainment of the patrons.  
    	
    	The actual purchase was for the distinctive design of the joint 
    	connecting the head to the neck.
    
    	Or this may be urban legend...
    
    	Joe Oppelt

>    	The US didn't invent Barbie dolls either.  If I remember correctly,
>    	the idea was bought from a bar (or a manufacturer that sold to
>    	bars) in Germany where these dolls were dressed in scanty lingerie 
>   	and left on the tables and bar as decorative ornaments for the 
>    	entertainment of the patrons.  
    	
    Joe,

    Urban legend, I'm afraid....

    The head/owner of Mattel toys had a teenage daughter in the mid 50's 
who was "attractive and popular" I guess is a nice way of saying she had 
Barbies looks and figure. He designed a doll for younger girls who wanted 
to mimic teenagers (Still happens today) and patterned it after his 
daughter. Don't know if Ken/Skipper/Etc had basis in friends,etc, but 
Barbie is still around today, she was featured last year as part of the 
30th anniversary of the dolls. Still a good looking lady. Of course, I was 
about her age, so your mileage may vary on that opinion!

    I was working in a toy store when Barbie was introduced....was an 
instant hit with the tkids then, and is still a perennial favorite. Perhaps 
the most "copied" doll size/style in the world!

    Vic

    The story about "Barbie" originating in a bar is more plausible. It
    seems that every product is supposedly named or modeled after
    somebody's kid. Look at "wendy's" hamburgers for example,that
    overweight codger on TV would have us believe that he has a teenaged
    daughter named Wendy. Balderdash! He's an actor and "Wendy's" is a name
    thought up by an ad agency.
    
    Ken

    "Wendy's" was named after the founders daughter back when it was way
    to small to use Mad Ave.
    
    			Alfred

    Wendy's was started circa 1970 here in Columbus by David Thomas,
    the fellow you see in the ads. At the moment I'm sitting about
    a 5-minute walk from that original Wendy's hamburger parlor.

    Yes, he has a daughter named Wendy.  She doesn't have red hair, however.
    
    I too was amused by the suggestion that his daughter is a 'hip
    teenager'... She is probably in her 30's these days and probably
    avoids the vernacular that dear old dad quoted.
    
    Lee

    	Actually, David Thomas' (if that's the owner's name) daughter
    	is not named Wendy, but rather Melinda.  When Melinda's little
    	sister was just learning to talk, she couldn't pronounce
    	Melinda properly.  She pronounced it Wendy.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

	... his hamburger chain.  Originally, the shape and texture of the
pattie was more "like home". So was the taste.  It was VERY different at the
time, more like your old local soda fountain lunch counter.

	Thomas originally made a fortune as a KFC franchiser in Southern Ohio
before getting the hamburger idea.  To me, he ranks up there with KO for the
entrepenurship accolades!

    
    And Thomas's buddy, Gov. Rhodes (of Kent State fame), was a major
    backer- to the extent that at very-much-$$-per-plate fund raising
    dinners, he had Wendy's Old Fashioned Hamburgers served.
    
    I would accuse this note of being a rat hole, but am afraid that 
    metaphor in conjunction with a ground meat discussion is innapropriate.
    
    	Dave

         <<< Note 1020.19 by CSC32::K_BOUCHARD "Ken Bouchard CXO3-2" >>>
                         -< origiated on Madison Ave. >-

>    The story about "Barbie" originating in a bar is more plausible. It
>    seems that every product is supposedly named or modeled after
>    somebody's kid. 

    Ken, 

    Sorry to keep this going but....Why do you believe some urban legend 
faster than the explaination I gave? Mattel had a 30th anniversary last 
year for the doll, and the "original" Barbie (Barbara) was there for the 
promo work. It was written up in several publications, including 
Smithsonian magazine about a year ago. Short of the Wendy's story also 
mentioned, I really don't see "every product is named or modeled after 
somebody's kid".......

Oh yeh, I forget about the Edsel.....8^)

    Vic

    So I was probably wrong about Wendy's (considering the avalanche of
    replies that say I'm a damned fool) I'll readily admit I was
    wrong...for only the second time in my life. So sue me!
    
    BTW: I stand by my original contention that every product is named for
    somebody's kid...just look at the "pet rock"
    
    Ken

    re: .26
    
    So what bozo named his kid 'Frisbee'??
    
    Al
    

>    So what bozo named his kid 'Frisbee'??

Mr. and Mrs. Frisbie - the first such flying discs to bear the name were 
plates from "Mrs. Frisbie's Pie Company."
Wham-O changed the spelling to avoid confusion, suits, and payoffs.

So what bozo named his kid Bozo?

A well known software consultant on DEC products (esp. VMS drivers) named
Alan Frisbie is the sole proprietor of "Flying Disc Systems".

/john

    Boy,.27,do you feel foolish,or what?
    
    Ken

    re: .31
    
    OK, OK, OK, OK, OK, so, ummm, like, what bozo named their kid, ummm,
    Clapper (of clap on, clap off fame)?  Yeah, that's the ticket!
    
    Al
    

	RE: .32 Just a suggestion but next time you pick a name try looking
	it up in the DEC (or any other phone book). For example, there is
	someone named "Clapper" in the Digital phone book.

			Alfred

    
    Re: .33
    
       As in Clapper John, M.D.?
    
    Re: .19 et al
    
       Ken, when you stated "that every product is supposedly named or
    modeled after somebody's kid," I and Al (.27, .32), and others no
    doubt, assumed you meant their kids' FIRST NAME.
    
       If the Frisbee is indeed named after The Frisbie Family (and I have
    no information to discredit this claim), then it does not support your
    statement (since Frisbie is a surname). Likewise, I join Al in daring
    you to find the son or daughter who was honored by having the Clapper
    named for them.
    
       For that matter, find me the person or other living creature that
    was used as a *model* for the Frisbee, Clapper, Slinky, Dave's Big
    Classic Cheeseburger, Hula-Hoop, Silly Putty, or any number of other
    products with names, shapes, or functions of dubious origin.
    
    
    Frank

    Hey,I never said that such products had to be named with a PROPER FIRST
    NAME...products *could* be identified by tacking on someone's kid's
    NICKNAME! OK,take "clapper" for instance...*that* could be a nickname.
    
    Ken

         <<< Note 1020.26 by CSC32::K_BOUCHARD "Ken Bouchard CXO3-2" >>>
                  -< so ban me from this conference already! >-

>    So I was probably wrong about Wendy's (considering the avalanche of
>    replies that say I'm a damned fool) I'll readily admit I was
>    wrong...for only the second time in my life. So sue me!
    
    BAN YOU KEN???? Never! we are always looking for someone to kick 
around. 8^)  (Sorry for sounding harsh in my .25 reply.....I probably 
wasn';t in the best humor....)

Besides., this has been a fun rathole.....

    		Vic

    Ane besides, if Dad had remembered to copyright the name, I would'nt 
have to work......

    Vic Hamburger

    RE: -1
    
    	Good one...made my night..(*: