Conference 7.286::digital

    
    Digital has a property disposal center. In theory, surplus material
    goes to the center and is resold to surplus equipment or
    scrap dealers. They seem to prefer to sell equipment _en masse_
    rather than a piece at a time. There's a "PDC Store" in the Mill
    (see VTX PDC for equipment listings), but prices are no bargan.
    
    You'll generally get the same or a better deal from a surplus dealer.

There was apparently a scandal several years ago where insiders were
declaring good equipment as Surplus and sending it to PDC for disposal.
Another insider at PDC would then turn around and sell the equipment to
the person who surplussed it (or a confederate), at way below market.
They then resold the equipment on the open market for a tidy personal
profit.

As a result of this scam, the PDC WILL NOT sell any computer equipment in
a useable form.  (i.e. they'll send it through a compactor and then sell the
bits to recyclers.)

There has GOT to be a way that Digital can reap some of the value of this
equipment that will most probably go into the dumpster.

FYI, Folks I know who have been TFSO'd have had the option of purchasing
their personal desktop systems for reasonable sums.

Kevin

    You know its tragic to see surplus stuff going to the crusher. I saw
    at a local office a cloud of vt220's waiting to go to the dumpster. 
    I asked why we didn't give/sell for a tiny amount these to students at
    the local schools or colleges. Coupled with 1200 baud modems they could
    be a very good way of keeping DEC/Digital's name in front of the next
    generation of computer know-it-all's. I've always thought the real
    value DEC stuff has been the second life that most of it lived in 
    the used market. this type of thinking worked back when we were making
    money by the bushelbaskeful so I guess it must be wrong now. 
    
    Anyway I guess all the vt's went to the dumpster. 
    
    Fred

re: .2

Whoa!

I think the "scandal" to which you are referring happened in the pre-PDC
days - back when there was a place known as "Salvage". It used to be at
Powdermill Road.

Part of the rationale for the PDC was that it was a mechanism that guarded
against that type of abuse.

The major reason the PDC hadn't been involved in the disposition of usable
DIGITAL equipment had to do with IRS regs, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, that's changed some recently. I believe I've seen
some DIGITAL printers in there, but I could be wrong.

-Jack

PS. I don't work for the PDC, but I've bought some stuff through them and
  wanted to share some facts.

    
    Actually there were a couple scandals. One was as .2 reported.
    (Though as I remember it, employees were declaring equipment
    surplus, then buying it themselves from the DEC salvage yard.)
    There was another instance where PC boards were removed from
    scrapped equipment and sold as new boards.
    
    At one time it was possible for equipment to be donated to schools;
    I did this with several pieces of unused (fully depreciated) lab
    equipment, but not computer equipment made by Digital. Check with
    your Finance people, maybe?
    
    There's several LA75 printers available through the PDC Store. What
    I can't understand is that the store has been offering some 
    oscilloscopes for going on a year, with no takers. Obviously if
    they lowered the price, they might find a buyer instead of having
    the units take up shelf space. They lower the price on some items
    after x days; why not do it on everything a la Filene's Bargan
    Basement? Also, some of the things they sell are so low priced
    that I doubt the sales price can cover the overhead--where's the
    profit in selling a single item for a price of a few dollars?
    It costs more than the selling price to put it on the database,
    pay for the storage space, cover administrative costs, etc.
     
    But it's a great place to buy a Bridgeport!

    > But it's a great place to buy a Bridgeport!
    
    Does the price include shipping? ;-) Those things are HUGE! But I'd
    love to have one... I know a guy that has one is his basement in Mass.
    I don't know how he ever got it down the stairs....
    
    Harry
    

re    <<< Note 3059.6 by USHS01::HARDMAN "Massive Action = Massive Results" >>>
>                            -< Truck freight only >-

>    I don't know how he ever got it down the stairs....

	A few years ago I was involved in the "retirement move" of a 
friend's relative.  We moved a house hold full of stuff and a basement
full of machine tools, including a Bridgeport mill and a 15 inch
Clausing/Colchester lathe.  This was from somewhere in Delaware to
Hartland Vermont.  The basic trick is pipe rollers, come-alongs and
sheets of 3/4 inch ply for rough ground.  He made arrangements with a
local garage at each end to have a small wrecker truck actually lift
the big pieces into/out_of the moving van.  With a few lengths of
chain, some rope, and lotsa beer and pizza we did a fair job.  Probably
the hardest part was the incredible amount of very heavy boxes packed 
with chucks, drills, and I_don't_know_what_else "small tooling" - 
yeah, thats it (-:

>    Harry

	Reg
    

Heard once that a Bridgeport miller is the only machine that can be used
to reproduce itself.

Lee

    Personally I think Digital should treat our TFSOed employees as future
    partners.  Those people when they go to the market they certainly will
    bring their knowledge and experties to the world and their first jobs
    after leaving Digital may very much related to their experience gained
    from Digital.  I think it will be very wise for Digital to sell the
    used equipments ( or new equipments) to TFSOed employees at the price of 
    costs or even lower than EPP for new equipments
    
    The news is out that we are going to cut 20,000 more employees.  Why 
    not convert them into 20,000 more VAX/pa users/develpers to todays 
    business?
    

Actually, if you check the ROTCON Clearinghouse on VTX you will find equipment 
that can be purchased by Digital employees. Some of it is 1-2 years old and we 
can discount it quite a bit (up to 75% off). Check it out. There is a fair 
amount of PC stuff in there if that is what you are looking for.

Regards,

Jim Mickol
ROTCON Administrator (among other things)
Xerox Acct Team
DTN 252-7106

    
    Can't find ROTCON on VTX.
    
    Page number or Key: ROTCON
    There is no page with that keyword.
    
    				_ Pierre _
    

>>    At one time it was possible for equipment to be donated to schools;
>>    I did this with several pieces of unused (fully depreciated) lab
>>    equipment, but not computer equipment made by Digital. Check with
>>    your Finance people, maybe?

I am in the process of trying to do this today with a computer.  There are
policies in place and as far as I am concerned WAY TOO MANY PEOPLE need to
spend Digital time to make this process happen.  This system, if returned back
to work, from my house, would end up in the scrap pile.  My college still has a
750 that it uses so over 6 months ago I tried to find out how to get Digital to
donate this.  I was trying to do this with as little outside help as possbile
(I did not want this donation to cost the company more than the gas it would
take me to bring it down to the college).  But NO, this boat anchor, because it
is a VAXStation, needed ALL KINDS of special excemptions that I had to:
1) find out about
2) get someone in my groups finance department to fill out
3) get several other groups to OK this

Its still not done.  I "think" all I need is one more person's signature but
with the way things are going, another 5 page policy will be written that will 
superceed the current one, and I'll have to start all over again!

This is off the track of the base noter request to purchace equipment but if
you would like to find out about donations, I believe VTX WASTE will get you
started (CORPORATE MATERIAL LIFE-CYCLE MANAGEMENT(CMLCM) 

bjm

    VTX DIAL was used to advertise used equipment that a cost center didn't
    want or need anymore, and your cost center could get reimbursed if
    another cost center wanted to buy it.  In the past MCS could sell
    used equipment to customers, if we got all the ok's from everyone.
    I haven't used it in a while, but I imagine DIAL is still available.

               <<< SALEM::SOFTWARE2:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DIAL.NOTE;1 >>>
                  -< DIGITAL'S IDLE ASSET LISTING CONFERENCE >-
================================================================================
Note 30.3          EMPLOYEE SALE POLICY - DEC EQUIPMENT - TFSO            3 of 3
SALEM::KENNEDY                                        5 lines  14-JAN-1994 08:57
                     -< LATEST TFSO EQUIPMENT BUY POLICY >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I have entered the new policy into note 30.1
    
    It is also available in VTX WASTE, select option #3, then option #4.
    
    

    
    BTW, that VTX PDC should really be VTX PDC_STORE.

Clarification on ROTCON vs. DIAL: Officially, ROTCON is not like DIAL. ROTCON
equipment is meant to be sold, not transferred internally. And although
internal transfers of ROTCON equipment can be done, the owning cost center will
not see a rebate of accrued charges with internal transfers like it will if the
equipment is sold. So, the priority is to sell ROTCON inventory. As a last 
resort or if there is an urgent need, internal transfer is possible.

Regards,

Jim

    PDC store used to be a place that gave away Bridgeports. Several went
    for around $1000, way below market value. Recently they introduced a
    bid system for major items, and a couple have now gone through at more
    like fair values.
    
    But they still have some crazy prices- can you belive Mouse pads for
    $5! They currently have some hand tools offered for more than the price
    of new tools. Cleary the prices are set by someone with no idea what
    the value of these thigs are.
    
    But since I cant resit a bargin, I go by about once a week and look- I
    have bought a few good deals!

    Re base note:
    
    What is the official definition of brokering?
    
    Thanks,
    Kay
    (someone who has had to compete against ex-DECies with "used"
    equipment)

    I talked to a logistics person a few months ago that was
    advertising on the DIAL system. I was looking for some PC
    parts to put together a system for the office. I could not get
    the parts because they wanted full price and management felt
    we should get a discount. We are part of the company, and the
    equipment was used anyway. 
    
    Anyway the logistics guy went on to tell me they just finnished
    crushing 5 million dollars worth of new PC's because the could
    not get full price internally and they were taking up to much room.
    
    Just imagine putting a pc or two into offices to be used as a training
    machine or replaceing vt220's.

    .20 "crushing 5 million dollars worth of new PC's because the could
        not get full price internally and they were taking up to much room"
    
    I would really appreciate knowing more details.  When I think of the
    absolutely CRYING need for even OBSOLETE personal computers around this
    Corporation, I would love to know who made this imho dastardly decision.
                                                                

    	I have grown rather attached to my workstation, having been using
    it for the past 7 years, so I asked if I could buy it to replace the
    VT220 that I have had at home on loan for the past 8 or 9 years.
    
    	My manager had no objection. Nor did his manager. With so many
    people TFSO'd there was no problem finding a more modern workstation
    without even asking outside the group, and one was moved to my desk
    within hours.
    
    	Then came the problem. The finance people say there is no mechanism
    in France for employees to buy old or surplus equipment. There is,
    however, someone on site with authority to set a price for things like
    that for TFSO'd employees. All I have to do is to justify its continued
    use until we are both made redundant together.
    
    	Dave, with 2 workstations at his desk, but dialed in from a VT220
    at home.

    re: .20/.21
    
    as a business would you rather write of 5mil or 2mil???
    
    if you can't get full price financially your better off writing
    off the value as scrap...!!
    
    IMO

Hey, I've got it, lets have a corperate wide cost center yard sale - ya, that
way cost centers who have very little equipment budget can barter for new
equipment, and those cost centers who always seem to have the latest and 
greatest stuff can off load what they consider 'scrap' - and get it off the
their books.  

It seems like these types of policies (can't get book, scrap the stuff) seem to
forget we are ONE COMPANY.  I really don't care what cost center #1 is doing,
if they have some hardware that is no longer being used, and cost center #2 is
using 10 year old hardware - damn it - give it to them.  

I think this is the idea behind D.I.A.L, but from reading several notes in 
this topic, it appears to not be working very well.  

After going through what I have gone through to get a MVII/GPX donated I can
fully believe that there is just too much paperwork in this process.  Maybe its
too much overhead to get someone from "cost center #1" to list the equipment on
D.I.A.L but the scrap form is easier so they opt for that.  This is only a
theory but many people will give up if "giving away" is too much work.

bjm

>                     <<< Note 3059.23 by TRLIAN::GORDON >>>
>    as a business would you rather write of 5mil or 2mil???
>    
>    if you can't get full price financially your better off writing
>    off the value as scrap...!!

You can't "write off" what you don't "lose."
(The "quotes" are because the terms are a bit soft in definition.)

The point being made is that the material had some accounting value (book 
value, asset value, retail price - it's not clear from context),
but beyond that it had UTILITY - people in many groups need PCs.

By scrapping $5M in equipment, the corporation admits a loss of that much,
which doesn't help profitability.  If we had kept the equipment, we would
record on the books its depreciation as an expense - probably a modest
fraction of the $5M - and the equipment would stay available for useful
application.  Did some particular cost center gain from the disposal
at the expense of the corporation as a whole?  That seems to be the gist 
of the complaint.

- tom]

    re .21
    
    I was looking to build a PC for our office to install some of
    the computer based training software and also to have a PC in
    the office to keep some of the parts databases on so we would
    not have to drag laptops in and out each time we came and left
    the office.
    
    I called one of the stocking locations listed in DIAL that had a
    bunch of PC's and PC parts listed for sale. The fellow and I was
    talking about some of the items that were listed as obsolete, but
    to get the equipment your cost center had to pay full internal cost
    to get it shipped to you. I'm not sure exactly how that works, but
    your cost center has to depriciate the cost ouer time, and the monies
    have to come out of your budget.
    
    Anyhow, while talking to the person he told me that when something
    is marked as obsolete on DIAL, it has to be sold in X number of days
    or months. If not it is gotten rid of. (ie: crushed). He said he had
    just crushed over 5 million dollars worth on new PC's still in the box.
    Brand new and never opened boxes. 286's, 386's, and some 486's.
    Monitors, disk drives, memory. Hey, we sure could of used one of them
    here. Talk about help people to get PC smart.
    
    There must be some way of getting credit as a bussiness loss for
    Digital to crush this many PC's
    

    The Property Disposition Center,Resource Recovery Center, etc
    are located at DOO, Contoocook, N.H..

    re: .25
    
    I stand by .23, basic accounting 101

Since when did accounting have anything to do with reality?

I'd certainly buy an "Obsolete" (but working) 386 for $100 or so..
even if it was to Gut and rebuild with a new Motherboard.




David

    re: .29
    
    you would and so'd I but the financial "experts" that are paid
    to run a business look at it very different than you or I....
    
    depreciation/expense/overhead/tax shelters/reductions etc.
    are what it takes to run a business

    
>    you would and so'd I but the financial "experts" that are paid
>    to run a business look at it very different than you or I....
>    
>    depreciation/expense/overhead/tax shelters/reductions etc.
>   are what it takes to run a business
    
    hmm ... that's how we ran the business over the last few years and look
    how well that worked.  Personally, I'd like see business managers to
    decide what the smart thing to do is instead of finance controlling
    decisions because of the expediate accounting outcome.  
    
    Crushing PCs instead of giving/selling them internally is just another
    case where worker productivity just does not enter the picture.  IMO
    another case of do the dumb thing to try to make the books look good
    which is a vicious negative cycle IMO.
                    
    Greg  (who has been waiting for my PC for over a year now)
                        

    > hmm ... that's how we ran the business over the last few years and
    > look
    
    I don't believe left over equipment management is what really caused
    or problems...

    
>    I don't believe left over equipment management is what really caused
>    or problems...
    
    That is not what I intedned to say ... I believe doing what looks good
    for accounting purposes instead of what makes common sence is a major
    cause  .... and crushing PCs is just another of many-many examples of
    this problem.
    
    Greg
    
                                           

    Some time ago I needed some equipment (I think it was an expansion box
    and disk for my VAX 3100) and tried using DIAL.  There was plenty of what
    I wanted available but the prices were higher than buying new!
    The original owners were asking for the original list price, the stuff was
    used, no guarantees.  Meanwhile, computer prices were dropping and I was
    able to order new stuff and save my cost center (err, center of control)
    some money.  Is this any way to run an airline?
    
    John

    DIAL prices are based on the depreciation left on the equipment, not
    market value.  
    
    DIAL is not usually a reliable source for "equipment"; it's really a
    source of "parts".  Be prepared for some hardware hacking on a lot of
    what you get from DIAL.
    

I too have seen items on dial for more than they cost new.

dave

re: .37

That is because there was a price reduction that reduced the price below the
depreciation remaining on the item purchased when the cost was higher.

For example:

A cc buys a piece of equipment that has a cc cost of $1000.  A few months
later, the cc price of the equipment is reduced to $700.  At the end of the
fiscal year, 20% or $200 is charged against the equipment, leaving a cost
of $800 on the cc books.  The cc then decides it doesn't need the equipment
and puts it on DIAL for the outstanding depreciation of $800.  Nobody wants
it of course, since a new item can be purchased for $700.  The cc is NOT trying
to rip anyone off.

HTH,

Bob

OK. So nobody's trying to gauge anybody. (or at least most are not:
I have seen used equipment listed in DIAL at "Std Cost" read full fare)

Is this how it SHOULD be?
Does it make SENSE to have a CC buy new equipment that could have been 
sold to a customer instead of re-using perfectly good used equipment which could
not be resold?   But that's the end result when re-using used equipment would be
MORE expensive than the new equipment!

I'll not quibble with the argument that under the existing rules-of-engagement,
listing CCs have little choice.  I'm suggesting that we find a way to change
the rules which lead to "depreciation constipation": the inability of this
corporation to shift its assets from where they are gathering dust to where they
could be productive.  This inability is caused primarily by our own internal
bookkeeping policies.  In some cases those policies are required by proper tax
accounting.  I suspect that there might be other ways of accounting for the
corporation's assets which would allow them to move more freely to where they
are needed from where they are not.

So, the challenge:
How should things be set up so that legal requirements are met, but so that
assets could be more easily moved to where they are needed?

    change accounting to "lower of cost or market" practices.  What's so
    hard about this, accepted writedown method (I think?)  
    
    might be hard on the book keepers unless you autoload current price
    file against standing inventory of cap assets.
    
    

    
    Dial has worked for our lab in a number of cases. I think the best
    example is the three-wheel polishing table we got for free. It would
    have cost around $12-14k new. It just needed a new top for about $700.
    There are also a number of small pieces of equipment that we acquired
    through DIAL but that was the biggest savings so far.
    
    Steve B.