Conference 7.286::digital

   Sounds like speculation to me, but this is as good a place as any to put a
   comment. 
   
   Recently,I saw an analysis of all of the Economic recessions over the last
   few decades. The average duration was somewhere less than twelve months.
   (Now whether this recession turns into a depression is another matter, but
   given the Military build up and it's supportive effect upon economies, I
   doubt it.) 
   
   I think that signs of upturn in the economy are not far off. I can only
   hope that Digital (and it's employees who have a horrible habit of taking
   every directive far too literally) aren't too enthralled in their "Sky is
   falling" chant to notice it.
   
   As an aside, I do believe that this is a good time for expansion, as we
   have the resources and momentum to weather this "flicker" in the economy
   far better than many of our competitors, but, as I said, to many people are
   playing chicken little to notice this...
   
   q
   

    re:.1
    
    You get laid off in the Northeast and the sky *is* falling.
    
    Ken

    
    I heard the new Mass. gov, Bill Weld, on the news say that he has been
    briefed by the '128' crowd (hi tech companies) that large layoffs
    are in the works. No company names were attached to the 'briefing'
    companies in the news stories. I saw the same info on two channels with
    only minor additions by one reporter and a slightly longer clip of
    Weld's comments.
    
     

    RE: .0 I heard that about a year and a half ago. I don't believe
    what we've had since then counts as official layoffs though.
    
    		Alfred

    re: .5

    The security memo might have been referring to people leaving
    under TFSO.

    I like the way the "office of engineering security" equates
    "transition" with "threat".

Maybe we should have a lottery or office pool to see who can come up with
the closest-to-accurate guess for how many people will get laid off?  I'll
bet on *6000*, since that's what somebody from *outside* the company (and
hence probably better-informed than most of us;^)) said he'd heard was the
number.

Boyoboy, are we good little morale-boosters here or what?? :-(

								paul

    Gee, they better do the Mass layoffs quick. The Boston Globe last week
    had an article discussing the status of unemployment funds for various
    states. Massachusetts estimates that their funds will be depleted by
    April of 1991!
    

    What bothers me most about all this is that management is letting the
    speculation, uncertainty and worry build. If management has actually
    made a decision to have layoffs they should say so. They should allow
    people to plan based on knowing that they will or will not have a job
    at Digital. If they have decided that there will not be layoffs then
    they should say that as well and knock off the wishy washy "never say
    never" talk. If they haven't made up their minds, highly likely I'm
    afraid, then no wonder we're in trouble. If management doesn't know
    what to do yet maybe it's time for some new management.

    			Alfred

    re .-1

    I'm afraid it might be that old insider trading bug-a-boo again. If we
    were told, we could engage in trading our stock on inside information.
    We should probably thank the SEC for the seemingly intentional lack of
    solid information.

    Not to be cynical, but does a leak to the press make previously "inside"
    information "public" information?

    /Peters

    I'll disagree with Alfred.  The message, I think, has no ambiguity.  It
    was "Don't be surprised if we have layoffs.".

    That clearly means that the long-term "no layoff" tradition is dead. It
    also means that a layoff could be announced at any moment. If you are
    in a "no output" group, then you know that your job is at risk right
    now.

    As Peters points out, such announcements go to the Dow Jones News
    Service first because of the material effect it would have on the stock
    price.

	My understanding is that the company has to let the state know
30 days before the lay-off and that is what DEC did.. DOes anyone know
anymore about this???

    Hope for the best, but PREPARE for the WORST. 
    
    

Wasn't a new law passed requiring EMPLOYEES to be notified 30 days in advance
in the event of a layoff of this size?

	RE: .16 A number of different states have been passing such laws.
	Both 30 and 60 days have been used in various laws. I don't know
	what MASS does. Also I believe that some of the laws treat plant
	closings with layoffs differently from layoffs without plant
	closings.

	FWIW, the latest rumor I heard was that someone called the MASS
	Dept of Employment Security and that they denied recieving any
	notification from Digital. On the other hand I don't know if that
	would be concidered public information or not so believe what you
	want. 

				Alfred

    I believe there's a new federal law that requires 60 days notice to the
    persons effected.....or maybe they can get around that by giving people
    60 days pay.  Anyone know for sure on this?
    
    The sad part about it is that most of the bad actors that got us in
    this mess will get away with their highly paid jobs intact.
    
    I too wish they would either do it, or get off the pot.

re .18:

>    The sad part about it is that most of the bad actors that got us in
>    this mess will get away with their highly paid jobs intact.

What does Ronald Reagan have to do with DEC's problems?  Or are you talking
about a different kind of "bad actor?"

    "Never say never" is what Dukakis always says when asked if he will run 
    again for president. And we KNOW he will. Translation of "never say 
    never": YES.

    I was led to believe the 60 day notice was for employees affected by 
    plant closures.
    
    Mike

    re .19 .....well, now that you mention it there is more than one
    definition of "bad actor", but I was thinking more along the lines of
    people who made the really severe strategic thinking mistakes in the
    past 4-5 years.  Things like P.C.'s, work stations, snake oil, etc.
    
    I would hope that at least 30-40 of our VP's make the cut.  I can't
    believe how many we have lately.

    I can see the headlines now:
    
    		DEC Evac's 9000
    				

    I was told by someone tht we in Mass and N.H. have a LARGE number of 
    people in Transition, and that's where the bulk of the 9,000 would come
    from.
    
    Does anyone know how many folks there are in Transition today? 

    I was told that it is mandatory for a company to give an estimate
    of the number of layoffs anticipated in a given year to the state 
    authorities - otherwise they cannot layoff people. And to make
    a safe bet, the companies give the worst possible estimates. I also
    heard that last year DEC had given the number 5000 but there were
    no involunteery layoffs. I guess states need to know these estimates
    to plan for it. 
    
    In anycase, this explanation came from a senior fellow employee and may
    not be a fact.

    I also heard that we did the same thing 6 months ago and 
    probably are doing it every month just in case layoffs are
    required. Probably just an automatic CYA.
    
    Lloyd
    (I hope)

I asked someone in Corporate Employee Communications about this rumor, and he
said that, to the best of his knowledge, it's untrue.

							-- Nina

    In The Prince Machiavelli suggested that when you come to power you
    should look around, see who has to go, and wield the knife to wipe
    your opposition completely.  This should be done once and as early
    as possible.  That way those remaining can rest assured that their
    necks are no longer on the line, and so get down to some productive
    work.  If you leave it linger on for too long people are overcome by
    FUD (like most of the later comments in this notes file).

    If Digital's management applied these principles we would be working
    in a more productive, better place.

    Bryan

    re: 28
    
    I think Sadem Insane read the book.
    
    

    Can Digital legally lay off people without offering them the package,
    if they were not offered the package before?  Like, if you have 10
    years with the company and some one just got hired recently, and you
    are laid off but the new person is still employed and you have the
    same skills.  Can the company be sued?  I'm just wondering how this
    supposed layoff would occur.  Would tenure and job skills have any
    thing to do with it, or could managers pick and choose as they wish
    with no regard to length of job at DEC.  A lot of us know its not
    what you know but who you know......
    
    Like everyone else here at DEC, if layoffs got to happen lets get it
    overwith in a "Fair" manner, so that we can get back to work in a 
    company that has almost always been a real people oriented company.
    I want to feel good about the company I work for and not have the 
    axe hanging over my head!
    
    Alan 

    Laying off a large group of people will only be a "short term"
    solution. If the "real" problems are still there, then the, effects
    will be the same and the solution will only be more layoffs.
    
    I have friends at other companies, Unisys and Wang and they have been
    going thru nonstop, periodic layoffs for a long time. There was yet
    another round of layoffs scheduled for next week at Unisys.
    
    So if the problems aren't solved, you are forced to keep laying people
    off. Hopefully we will cut our costs, and be more competitive real
    soon.
    
    

    re: the others
    
    I agree the "rumor" is probably nothing more than pro-forma notice to a
    government agency as opposed to real news.
    
    re: .-1
    
    Unless otherwise legislated or specifically contracted, it's hire at
    will, quit at will, fire at will.   As I understand the laws that apply
    here, there's no obligation on Digital's part to offer the same
    "package" or for that matter "any" package.

    re. .30
    
    Unless you have an Employment Contract, you are an Employee At Will,
    and can be layed off, fired etc. at the decision of an empowered
    Manager. However most companies, for several reasons, set guidelines
    for dismissal. Tenure, typically has little to do with down-sizing.
    
    
    			my .02 worth
    				Fred Deady

    The procedures for layoffs are strictly up to local management
    perogatives.  Since Digital is not a "union shop", you can expect
    that seniority will not carry much weight, some countries in europe
    may see different results due to governmental regulations.
    
    There is no basis for a suit, unless you can show age, sex, or some
    other prohibited form of discrimination.  Afterall DEC never guaranteed
    you a job for life!!!
    
    As for the unfairness of allowing some people to volunteer to leave
    with compensation, while forcing others out without such compensation!
    It is unfortunately for those forced out quite legal, unless they can
    prove discrimination per the categories above.
    
    I especially sympathise with people who were offered the package and
    chose to continue to work at Digital because they were told their
    skills were needed last year, but are now in a facility about to be
    closed because it is not needed by Digital.  These individuals have
    been contributing in the face of a losing battle, and now their offer
    is dependent upon Q2 results???  Legal (of course) Ethical (????)
    
    The questions others will have to ask is, do I wait around till
    my group is downsized.... and there are no funds to pay TFSO...
    or do I try to get myself out now, or look for a new job... or....
    
    The resultant drag on employee productivity is not helping us move
    forward.  I am not sure people need to read "The Prince" but they
    need to get on with whatever downsizing and be done with it.

    Driving home the other evening I heard an interview from the head of a
    major "outplacement" firm in Massachusetts and heard some very
    frightening (but not surprising) data.
    
    The "old rule of thumb" was that it would take 1 month for every $10K
    of salary to find a job.  For example, if you were looking for a $50K
    per year salary you should expect to spend about 5 months on the job
    market.  Now, with the current economic climate in Massachusetts, the
    "new rule of thumb" is 3 - 5 months for every $10K of salary to find a
    job.  The person also stated that they expected this to approach the 5
    month number consistently if the job market continued to shrink in the
    state.
    
    Some sobering news...

    ...because we're grossly mismanaged!  There are still hundreds of
    managers, who when tasked with a new project, etc., can only think
    in terms of how many req's to issue.
    
    Personally, I wish more people had been given the chance to really
    volunteer for the package....also would have liked to see a real
    early retirement package.
    
    Enough people might have gone for those as to obviate the need for
    real lay-offs.

   Off course the other considerations is that with other companies doing
   layoffs, there is some new talent in the job market, that it would probably
   be to our advantage to acquire...
   
   q
   

    	i would hope that DEC would attempt to avoid a layoff at any cost.
    KO has tried valiantly to stand alone when it came to conforming to 
    the western style of conducting the business of the day by attempting
    to care for employees (value them). It's been the one thing that makes
    DEC a desireable company to work for. I'm afraid if DEC does embark on 
    a layoff then it becomes just another company and perhaps not as highly
    coveted as it once was by potential future employees. This mystique if 
    you will allows us to attract some of the best people in the industry
    which in turn affords us a competitive advantage in the marketplace. 
    
    I have heard that we did not lose money last quarter and in fact earned
    approximately .50 per share. About 60% off from last years Q2 earnings/
    . Have the financials for Q2 been published yet??
    
    
    
    

    Re. notes:
    
    .1	If you believe that, I've a lovely piece of land in Florida--lots
    	of water attached to it.  Read my lips--this is a recession!!!
    
    .11 What do you expect, that's DEC style!
    
    .27 If Corp Employee Communication said the rumor is untrue, then that
    	confirms it for me.
    
    .16 I am, I am (prepared for the worst).
    
    .35	If that's how long it takes to get another job (per 10K of salary) 
    	the I'm laughing.  It should take me all of a couple of weeks to
    	find a new job.
     
    Could be that the rumor (as all rumors do) became garbled.  Could it have
    been that (the VAX) 9000 (designers and engineers) would be laid off?
   
    As for an announcement (if DEC goes to lay-offs)--keep your eyes on 
    the Boston Globe.  I have had more information on DEC from that source 
    than any internal announcement (I first heard of the TFSO1 that way).
                                              
    The only thing I am sure of (other than death and taxes) is that what ever
    happens I will be the last to know.  
    
    Think positive and how's your typing skills--plenty of reqs for
    secretary.                                                        7

    re .40....I strongly disagree that KO should avoid lay-offs "at any
    cost".  We always justified overstaffing situations in the past by
    claiming we would need the people when we returned to a fast growth
    scenario.  Well people, it ain't gonna happen, and a lot of the blame
    lays directly in KO's lap.  I believe we'll get back to healthy levels
    of profitability, but the good all days of sloppily managed growth
    are gone forever.
    
    .41, you are very naive.  I hope you're not over 45 or making over 50K.
    I think, and my experience tells me, that the once month/10K figures
    given are very conservative.  But, good luck.

    
    I haven't flamed off in a while sooooo.....
    
    
    RE .40
    
    As I have said before, this company does not exist to "care for it's
    employees".  This company exists for only one purpose; to sell
    hardware, software and services to customers, at a PROFIT.
    
    I cannot understand why some employees would let this company
    maintain the status quo "so that it is a desirable place to work".
    They obviously have lost sight of why we were hired.
    
    
    This is not the dept of human services.  We are fat in some areas
    and too lean in others.  The hell with downsizing, we need to rightsize.
    We need to get rid of any deadwood (managers & IC's alike), unnecessary
    jobs (there are many) AND we need to place competent people in groups
    that are shorthanded, such as software engineering (118 openings).
    
    No, KO can't take people from personel, finance etc and make them
    software engineers so he can "care for his employees".  We need
    qualified people who have experience.
    
    I never cease to be amazed at how many spoiled people there are 
    working here, probably the only place they have worked and think
    this company is gods gift to the people, it ain't.  It IS just
    another company and if not managed properly, it will be just another
    bankrupt company.
    
    Yes, we can make this a very profitable company, for the stockholders.
    That is what we are paid to do.  We cannot do so however, by
    maintaining this half assed status quo.  
    
                                         

re: .43:
    As I have said before, this company does not exist to "care for it's
    employees".  This company exists for only one purpose; to sell
    hardware, software and services to customers, at a PROFIT.
    
If this company does not "care for it's employees" the employees it
needs to have in order to make the hardware and softare and sell it
and deliver it and fix it will be the first out the door, as t*h*e*y
are still in demand.

Martin.

    If Digital lays off anywhere near the number rumored, think of the
    impact on the real estate market here in the Northeast.
    
    Just this past weekend, Bank of New England was seized by the Feds and
    on Monday the bank filed for bankruptcy protection. Cause of the
    demise: non-performing real estate loans. How many other banks will 
    buckle if real estate prices, reacting to a DEC layoff, head much
    further south?
    
    If DEC lays off in a big way, the casualites will extend far beyond
    those involuntarily terminated...
    

    
    Re: .43
    
    OK, let's give your idea a try and how about you being the
    first one to go.  Try it on and see how it feels.
    
    Steve
    

    Re: 43
    
    You are hired to produce a product that the company sells at a Profit.
    If you cannot see the correlation between satisfied employees and
    Profits, you're out. It's an "n" way street, if DEC is not competitive
    in how it treats its employees, guess what? the competition gets the
    best and you get the REST! Unfortunately the REST seems to be a
    disproportionate fraction of the pie at this point in time. 
    Our hiring policy, if such a thing exist, is one of the loosest in the
    industry, when the grass is green and the gate is wide open the goats
    overwhelm the sheep!  
    
    We need Metrics, just like the good old days at school!
    

Well, this story has just hit the local news.

At about quarter past noon today, Channel 5 (WCVB) news reported that there
was an internal memo detailing 7500 Mass and 1500 NH layoffs.

I wonder if there's an internal memo, or if there's just this VAX Notes
discussion.

/john

    For what it is worth, this is the front page, full banner story on the
    local newspaper in Hudson, MA. It quoted the same numbers and the
    infamous "internal memo" but went on to say that the memo (and some
    discussions) had been going on "in USENET". That leads me to suspect
    that the source might have been this notesfile and they did not know
    what to call the network. 
    
    A case of rumors feeding on rumors? Or could it be real?
    
    krishna
    

    
    
      Let's see if it's denied as quickly as the story about Bob 
    Glorioso's reassignment...
    

    Tune into the NOTE KAOSWS::CANADA note 397 to hear about the Canadian 
    "restructuring" that happened today.
    
    

    The note refered to in .52 has been deleted. A place holder is
    there now. Wonder what's up?
    
    		Alfred

    
    re. 43
    
    
    	geeshh.. .just another company with a bunch of average employees is
    really something to aspire to...i guess we ought to be just like the 
    rest of them. i'm not ashamed to admit that i've worked here for 11
    years and i don't consider myself to be spoiled!! apparently you feel
    very strongly about being associated with just another company so why
    don't you lead the way.... there's always Wang......?
    
    

    re .53  Now the note referred to in .52 just says that 2-300 Canadian
    employees have been offered a package...no details...
    
    Carol

    We just received official word in Andover.  The management line is
    that there will be an involuntary layoff (that's right, the group
    manager used the "l-word") of 5000 US employees "sometime this
    quarter".
    
    The breakdown will be 2000 field employees, 1000 engineering and
    2000 "other".  The selection process will be based on performance
    and the financial package will be based on TFSO 2 numbers.
    
    Groups that did not participate in TFSO1 and TFSO2 will be hit this
    time around.
    
    That's all they would tell us, but Livewire is supposedly announcing
    it this afternoon.
    
    Mark.

    In MRO we were told 1000 "other" also another 10K in FY92.

from LiveWire:
                      New phase of U.S. downsizing announced 
 
  Increasingly intense competitive pressure within the computer industry -- 
  business practices, technological advances and manufacturing efficiencies -- 
  are placing added pressures on the company's cost structure, in spite of 
  ongoing cost reduction efforts that focused on increased productivity and 
  efficiency and two voluntary downsizing programs.

  An analysis of the results of these efforts has been completed and was 
  reviewed this week by the Corporate Operations Committee and the Executive 
  Committee. This analysis shows that those cost reduction efforts, while 
  impressive, have simply not been enough, in light of the increased pressures 
  applied by economic conditions. 

  As a result, a new phase of the U.S. downsizing effort, involving involuntary
  selection methods, has been approved effective immediately. The decision to 
  move into a new phase was finalized yesterday. 

  As we move ahead into this phase, it is critical for everyone to try to 
  grasp the full impact of the intense competitive and economic forces at 
  play. Those pressures are driving fundamental changes in this company and 
  this industry. And even as business improves, we can no longer expect things 
  to "return to normal," as many of us assumed in past economic downturns. 

  This phase is different in two ways from prior phases. It will involve 
  involuntary methodology, and while a financial support package will be 
  offered, it will be somewhat less generous.  

  While we need to move ahead quickly, we also intend to proceed in a rational 
  and orderly way that will not disrupt business. This program is a U.S. 
  program. Other downsizing programs will continue to be implemented outside 
  the U.S., based upon business conditions, local laws, customs, and 
  traditions, on a country-by-country basis. 

  Regarding methodology, two primary factors will determine whether an employee
  is selected: 1) his or her work has gone away; 2) he or she is selected from 
  a larger group being reduced based on performance (i.e., the last documented 
  performance rating, as indicated on the employee's most recent performance 
  evaluation).  If additional selection steps are required, they will be based 
  on additional performance criteria (those details are being further refined 
  and will be finalized shortly.)

  The elements of the financial support package include a lump sum payment 
  based on years of service to the company; maintenance of medical, dental, 
  and life insurance coverage for a period represented by the total payments, 
  not to exceed one year; formal outplacement/employment assistance; 
  and, where applicable, five-year acceleration of any restricted stock 
  options.  This latter element is subject to approval by the Compensation 
  Stock Option Committee (CSOC).  There is no open-window period as before.

  Though the manner in which the payment will be made has been structured 
  differently than in previous programs to accommodate certain legal 
  requirements, the total payments will be as follows:

      0 - 2 years of service               13 weeks of pay
      3 - 10 years of service              13 weeks of pay, plus three weeks 
                                           of pay for every year of service 
                                           between three and ten years.

     11 - 20 years of service              37 weeks of pay, plus four weeks 
                                           of pay for every year of service 
                                           between eleven and twenty years.

                                           77 weeks of pay will be the maximum 
                                           financial bridge available.

  The progress of this program will be assessed periodically, and we will 
  endeavor to communicate relevant information to managers and employees as 
  quickly as possible through the appropriate communication channels.

    I'm sure there will be a generous-as-possible settlement, but not
    voluntary.
    
    My source in MRO confirms that in a staff meeting this morning it was
    announced that lay-offs really will happen.  Mentioned 1,000 engineers
    as a starter.
    
    ....now where is that damned resume???

Digital to cut 3,450 jobs in first ever layoffs
By BARRY FLYNN
UPI Business Writer
   BOSTON (UPI) - Digital Equipment Corp., the nation's No. 2 computer
maker, Wednesday said it will lay off about 3,450 employees worldwide,
breaking a 34-year tradition of no involuntary cuts and striking another
blow at the reeling regional economy.
   Most of the cuts should be complete by the end of March, said Nikki
Richardson, a spokeswoman, but she could not say when the first workers
would lose their jobs.
   The company has not yet determined who will be laid off or where the
cuts will be made, Richardson said. But because Massachusetts has a
large proportion of the company's employees, it can expect a big share
of the layoffs, she added.
   Digital's 29,000 employees in Massachusetts make the company the
state's second biggest employer after only Raytheon Co. based in
Lexington. Digital is New Hampshire's biggest employer with about 7,000
employees there, she added.
   Digital's goal has been to slash its worldwide work force by about 6,
000 employees, or nearly 5 percent, to about 117,500 by the end of the
fiscal year June 30 from a year earlier, Richardson said.
   The company said it had 123,500 employees around the world at the end
of last June. Richardson said the company does not know how many
employees it has now - after a voluntary severance program that fell far
short of its goals - because of an undetermined degree of other
attrition.
   Richardson said the severance program had resulted in about 2,550
people leaving the company voluntarily by the end of the year despite a
goal of 5,000 to 6,000.
   She said the company reached the 3,450 estimate for layoffs in the
next few months by extrapolating from the results of the severance
program.
   Digital, based in Maynard, Mass., is the nation's No. 2 computer
maker after International Business Machines Corp.
   Company spokesman Dallas Kirk said the 2,550 total for voluntary
severances was "as good as we could get considering the outside
environment," which includes both a nationwide slump in the computer
industry and the region's highest unemployment in almost a decade.
   Digital has been under heavy pressure from the investment community
to slash its bloated work force and thus strengthen its profit margins.
   A Wall Street analyst, George Elling, who follows Digital for Merrill
Lynch, said, "unfortunately, in light of the current environment,
they've got to control their overhead costs. In DEC's case, we're all
aware that business is rough" and the way to imporove results is to cut
costs.
   Elling said a reduction in costs now would poise the company for
sharp improvement once the economy and the computer industry turns back
up.
   Richardson said the company believes the costs of the severance
package have already been accounted for in a restructuring charge it
took last year, but declined to say how much of a savings would be
achieved by the layoffs.
   The Digital spokeswoman said the cuts would be done "on a business
by business basis" and "no business is exempt from doing the analysis.
   A company statement said an analysis of the voluntary severance
program's results "in light of the continuing changes in the computer
industry as a whole, business practices, technology advances and
manufacturing efficiencies indicates that the result is simply not
enough.
   "In addition, we believe that outside economic conditions make
continuing with a totally voluntary program unlikely to succeed."
[upi 09-JAN-1991 04:52]

    I just received official notification that the subject under discussion
    in this topic, with respect to Canada, is not to be discussed in VAX
    Notes. I therefore have hidden the reference in CANADA notesfile and
    deleted my notes on that topic in this reply.
    
    Scooter

        I've just changed the topic title to "First ever Digital
        layoffs."
        
        Jim Stratton, co-moderator, DIGITAL conference
        

    Re: .64
    
    Wouldn't it be "enlightening" when posting such official notifications
    to specificly identify the authorized official making such a directive?
    
    

     I was reading the Denver Post yesterday, and low-and-behold
     in the help wanted section was a rather large ad placed by
     a Sausalito, Ca. based advertising agency (Austin Knight)
     conducting a search for a unnamed client.

     I'm no brain surgeon, but I was still able to figure out this
     "client" was DEC! (Unless another Fortune 100 computer manufacturer
     has Customer Support Centers in Colorado Springs, and Atlanta, *AND*
     is hiring VAX/VMS, DECnet, Via Products, and ULTRIX folks)
     
     Finding this a little hard to swallow in the wake of the layoff
     announcement, I called a friend in Atlanta, who found the same ad in
     the Atlanta Journal Constitution!

     I understand some jobs are hard to fill, but wouldn't it be appropriate
     to give the unfortunate folks being layed off...excuse me, involuntarily
     right-sized, the first shot at these openings?

     If your interested, send your resume to:

     	Confidential Reply Service
     	Austin Knight Advertising
     	Dept. CLW-DP, POB 2126
     	Sausalito, CA. 94966
    

	RE: .67 What makes you think those jobs were closed to people in
	transition? I'll bet most if not all of those jobs have been posted
	for weeks internally. If people inside Digital wanted those jobs
	why haven't they already tried for them?

			Alfred

    	re .67
    
    	Yep.  The customer support centers have open reqs.  You *DO*
    	have first shot.  They are posted internally, and they are trying
    	to fill them with internals first.  See note 1644 in JOBS for
    	some of those positions.
    
    	As has been said many times over in this and other conferences,
    	sometimes there just isn't the available (or willing) talent
    	internally to fill certain positions.  Here they are looking
    	for a certain technical level to start with, and that technical
    	experience should be in the products for which they are looking
    	for specialists.  They don't want to spend the next year training
    	a hardware engineer to be technically proficient enough in RDB 
    	that he can provide customer support in it!  And there may be
    	dozens of employees who can do the job well, but they live in
    	New Hampshire and do not want to move to Colorado Springs or
    	Atlanta.  Sometimes you have to find that talent through other
    	sources, I guess.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    re: .66
    
    Yep. You'd be surprised at how high that fell on me from.
    
    ... and I got called at *home* to be told what I describe in
    .64...
    
    Scooter

    One problem that I can see (concerning DEC advertizing for applicants)
    is that the appropriate internal talent may not reside in the area with
    openings. In other words, DEC doesn't want to pay relocation.
    
    Ken

    re .71 "DEC doesn't want to pay relocation".
    
    But wait a minute.  You mean we're advertising in various newspapers
    across the country about job openings in Atlanta or Col Springs, and we
    wouldn't pay relo for the right external candidate?  Surely the case is
    not that we'd pay relo for an *external* candidate and not for an
    *internal* one?  Say it ain't so...
    
    Jon

    As far as I know,DEC's policy is *not* to pay relocation to new-hires.
    Anyone know different?
    
    Ken
    
    BTW: To my knowledge,the ads are in local papers for local openings so
    relocation would be a moot point anyway.

RE: .69

About 1 year ago I was trying to transfer into the CXO Customer 
Support Centers from Ma.   When I looked in the jobs book, I saw 
between 6 - 7 open positions for Customer Response Reps.   I sent in 
my resume.  

When I called the recruiter, I was told "There are no openings."   My 
fiancee, who worked in the CSC in Westboro, Ma., took a trip that same 
week to CXO and interviewed with several managers who had openings, 
(that very same job).   When I again called the recruiter, I was told, 
"there are no openings".   When I disputed this, she said basically I 
didn't have much of a chance at them, because, although I did similar 
work, I didn't have a computer science degree.   This was not a 
requirement for the job, but she claims other people who had applied 
DID have computer science degrees.  So therefore, I didn't stand a 
chance, despite the fact that my current job was a higher level.  
Imagine that: a computer science degree to become a Customer 
Response Rep.   Yet the job openings lingered on.

Do they call this unavailability of required skills?, or am I missing 
something obvious here?

John   (who_would_still_like_to_move_to_CXO)

    RE: Last few
    
    Back then I did not require relo.    I would go, as I would have gone,
    without relo.

    RE:     <<< Note 1333.73 by CSC32::K_BOUCHARD "Ken Bouchard CXO3-2" >>>

>    As far as I know,DEC's policy is *not* to pay relocation to new-hires.
>    Anyone know different?
 
         If this is policy, it has taken effect since 1989 when a new
    member of our group got relocation funds upon being hired.
       
>    BTW: To my knowledge,the ads are in local papers for local openings so
>    relocation would be a moot point anyway.
    
         The ads in the Colorado Springs Gazette-Telegraph were for Atlanta
    positions as well as Colorado Springs positions.
    
                                      Greg

re: .75

I applied for some CXO jobs and also got the response "no openings", but
the Personnel recruiter said that actually meant "CSC internal hires only".
So possibly a CSC person from YWO or ALF would be considered eligible.  I
think that was back in the days when certain organizations were under
overall headcount restrictions.  At least the recruiter responded, which
is more than i can say for about 30-40% of the recruiters to whom i sent
my resume for SPECIFIC req numbers.  Now that latter situation is WRONG.

As far as relo for external hires, my guess is that there's no policy per
se, just a great reluctance on the part of most hiring managers to pay
"DEC buys your house/condo" type relo (vs. just moving your furniture) to
external hires.  But for a "critical" opening i'll bet that would be
negotiable.  That just boils down to common sense, i hope.
								paul

    RE.73
    
    I don't know what the current policies are around external hiring,
    although I think the policy should be no external hires.  However,
    in the past, external hires got travel costs, moving of household
    goods, and I think 30 days of temporary living.  They did not get
    closing costs, house selling costs, etc.  The US Policies and
    Procedures are in VTX if you are really interested.

The advertisement for Atlanta and Colorado Springs openings appeared in the
Seattle Times Sunday, Jan. 13.  So they are not just recruting in the local
areas.

    	It is absolutely irresponsible to even GUESS that relocation
    	is not available for internal transfers.  As of the last I
    	heard, it has not been determined whether internal relocation
    	is available or not.  To state that it is not available when
    	that decision has not been made might only serve to discourage
    	qualified and valuable candidates from even trying.
    
    	The CSCs are excited to be able to snatch some DEC careers from
    	disaster.  It would make tons of sense to pay a year's salary
    	towards relocation and placement into a new job rather than 
    	have DEC spend that kind of money to watch some quality employee
    	walk away crushed,  or to pay headhunters' fees and limited
    	relo funds for an external hire.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    -68   
    	Maybe they were not looking for a job, maybe they did not want
    to relocate, maybe they just wanted to stay where they were. In
    relocating to another city, when you have children, a house, animals,
    friends. Do you know how hard it is on all the family members?
    I moved without my family, alone to Switzerland. I had to go as
    far as this to find a job. 
    
    	I believe the lay-off people should get a chance at those jobs
    with relocation.
    I hope they get it.		               Ruth    

    
    
    FWIW
    		The jobs discussed in CXO "do" have relo....
    
    It's easy once you type in VTX JOBS_US.
    

re: .69:
    	...  And there may be
    	dozens of employees who can do the job well, but they live in
    	New Hampshire and do not want to move to Colorado Springs or
    	Atlanta.

Ok, I'm showing my ignorance, but when I did telephone support, I had
a phone, a desk, and a stack of manuals.  Why do these have to be
physically located in Colorado Springs?

The telephone network should be able to move customer calls to the
appropriate person, no matter where that person is physically located.

Martin.

    Three Comments:
    
         1 - Don't be so naive as to assume that a recruiter is going to
    automatically help line you up with an open req.  Their job is also
    very much to filter out "undesirables".  In my direct experience they
    are fully capable of lying to applicants they don't want to deal with.
    
         2 - External New Hires get a very comprehensive relocation
    package.  See PP&P Manual, Section 5.03, dated Dec 1990.  Of course a
    hiring manager always has the option of not offering relocation on
    any req.
    
         3 - Anyone that thinks the good job, usually higher level, end 
    up on the JOBS List is really naive.  Anything from SRI 41 or above
    is handled via the old-boy network.

re: .83,

>re: .69:
>>    	...  And there may be
>>    	dozens of employees who can do the job well, but they live in
>>    	New Hampshire and do not want to move to Colorado Springs or
>>    	Atlanta.

> Ok, I'm showing my ignorance, but when I did telephone support, I had
> a phone, a desk, and a stack of manuals.  Why do these have to be
> physically located in Colorado Springs?

	I've been to CXO a couple of times since I've been at DEC,
    and while there, I noticed a communal atmosphere unlike any other
    DEC facility I've ever visited.  The CXO3 support facility is filled
    almost entirely with people working together handling support calls.
    This, in itself, might not seem so unusual, but I knew I wasn't in
    Kansas anymore when suddenly a particular call queue became too
    full and this sexy voice came on the public address system saying
    something to the effect "The xxx call queue is approaching a critical
    level, please check this queue...thank you...", at which point, the
    entire facility seemed to stir in reaction to the news.  There were
    a few other differences as well, but this is one thing that really
    made an impression on me.

	All in all, it was a pretty impressive demonstration of the
    support center's capability.  I was left with a feeling of pride
    in being able to say I worked for such a high tech firm which was
    able to work together in such a team-oriented approach (In some
    respects I felt like I was being given a tour of the Starship
    Enterprise).  I doubt whether what appeared to be such a high
    quality of support could be maintained with a geographically
    diverse group of employees at the end of some phone lines.

				  -davo

The ad was run in the Washington Post (Washington, DC, that is)
on Sunday.  The cost of the ad? $1200. Imagine the price
of that ad in every major newspaper across the country.

Oh well...

Re: External Hiring

	I just distributed my brother's resume throughout the corporation. He 
	is a Unix heavy and I KNOW we need this skill set. I got many 
	responses from recruiters, but practically every one said something
	to the effect that "we do not have external hire approval". I figured 
	strong UNIX skills were the kind we would bite the bullet on and hire
	from the outside. I find it hard to believe we can't fill many of the
	CSC slots from within.


Re: CSC Atmosphere

	I also visited the CSC and felt the same "we all have a common goal"
	attitude. I was excited and impressed with the spirit of everyone
	I saw there. I don't know how they do it, but perhaps they should
	try teaching other groups how to achieve the CSC team spirit.

    re:85
    
    Yes..and most good job hunting books tell to "whatever it takes, you
    must get past the personnel people and deal with the hiring manager".
    
    and most good books will instruct you how to do that...
    
    
    
    Dave
    

    Two things:
    
    1) I said I believe it's policy not to offer external hires relo.
    but,obviously,one can "make a deal" with a hiring manager.
    
    2) No,a phone,desk and a pile of manuals doesn't make for a very
    efficient phone support operation. Unless you know everything,there are
    times (lots of times in my case) when you have to ask people questions.
    I can ask questions of an un-limited  (seemingly) number of people
    right in my cubicle's vicinity. Try *that* if all you've got is a
    phone...
    

    A degree shoulod not be a pre-requisite for any job where it isn't
    mandatory - as an accountancy position, perhaps.
    
    	- andy

    re: .91
    A degree should not be a pre-requisite for any job where it isn't
    mandatory -
    
    
    ???
    
    ;^}
    tony

    re:.91
    
    Yogi Berra would be proud of that remark!
    
    Ken

Not a VOGONBALL at all.  "Mandatory" in this context means "mandated by
factors not under control of the decision maker".  For example, some
accountancy functions are by law required to be performed by government-
certified individuals, and you must have a degree to get the certification.
This is a case where the hiring manager may not care whether or not the degree
is held, but he must set the degree as a prerequisite because it is mandated
by law.

--PSW

    	re .91
    
    	What does a degree have to do with layoffs?  (Or was this a
    	reference to something way back there...)
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    re: .94 Thanks Paul, got it in one.
    
    RE: .95 Yep, a few replies back was a reference to people not getting a
    CSC job if they didn't have a degree.
    
    	- andy

    	But degrees *AREN'T* required.  Even the external hire ads
    	in the papers say BS or equivalent work experience.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    I know that. According to a previous reply, Personnel don't.
    
    	- andy

>================================================================================
>Note 1333.97               First ever Digital layoffs                   97 of 98
>CSC32::J_OPPELT "Please don't hit me any more..."     4 lines  17-JAN-1991 13:54
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>        But degrees *AREN'T* required.  Even the external hire ads
>        in the papers say BS or equivalent work experience.
>    
>        Joe Oppelt
>

Right.  The postings in the JOBS books don't mention anything about 
Computer Science degrees.   But believe me, it's all supposed to 
become irrelevant to you once the recruiter upon hearing that you 
don't have the degree, tells you "there are no openings, despite the 6 
that you are looking at in front of you now (from the JOBS book)".

Note the DECspeak: Not, "We don't feel you are qualified", or "we are 
not willing to pay relocation", etc., but: "There are no positions" ?

Okay, some have said that perhaps they were trying to offer them to 
the folks in that area first, or exclusively, whatever.   Then I would 
like to know why they are posted company wide?    I do not feel that 
Jobs should be posted company wide if they are only available to a 
certain site or group.   How many other employees are submitting 
resumes, follow-up letters, numerous phone calls, etc., to be told 
"there are no openings"?   Bring it to a larger scale and wonder how 
much company time and money is wasted annually by employees diligently 
applying for these psuedo "openings" ?

John (who_hopes_for_the_best_but_doubts_it)

    You have to remember who you're talking to.  If you're talking to the
    hiring manager, he/she probably doesn't care how many sheepskins are
    hanging on your wall or where they came from; their primary interest is
    in whether or not you are qualified & able to do the job that they need
    to have done.
    
    It has been mentioned elsewhere in this conference that Personnel
    recruiters, while generally nice people socially, and can under good
    conditions, log into their systems without inflicting self-injury, seem
    to be one of the lowest forms of multi-celled organisms when it comes
    to "qualifying a candidate".  They don't care that you can re-wire a
    fizzboom in your sleep, or fork processes thru ionic converter channels
    at warp speed.  Nor do they [generally] even understand those concepts,
    unless those kind of requirements are specifically written into the
    req, which they normally aren't.
    
    So how do they "qualify"?  Lemme see your sheepskin, dude...
    Jon

    	re .101
    
    	You said it so poetically!  Every job I obtained at DEC since my
    	original hire here has been through direct contact with the 
    	hiring manager -- each time initiated by a posting I found in 
    	notes (JOBS) for the job.
    
    	I have also attempted to find a position through personnel at
    	those times, but have never been successful using that vehicle.
    
    	Joe Oppelt
    	

re: Personnel Recruiters

I think the quality of recruiting is highly variable, so let's not
impugn the good ones because of the not-so-good.  As a hiring manager
i preferred having Personnel handle the communications back to folks
who sent in their resumes for my reqs.  BUT I WANTED THAT COMMUNICATION
TO HAPPEN.  I just felt it was their job to handle it...in fact, i
think that DEC (Orangebook) P&P says they MUST respond to all applicants.

As an internal applicant myself i found that this communication did NOT
always happen though.  The fastest i ever got a response back was within
minutes of sending off my resume by MAIL.  The slowest was *never*.  In
between were cases ranging from with a week to *more than 3 months*
later.  That degree of variability, from an organizational perspective,
is unacceptable, especially for applications that are for specific req
numbers (which must be tracked in a system somehow).

Maybe the quality of the IS systems/applications used by Personnel is
also at fault.  How difficult would it seem to auto-generate a "we have
received your resume for req #______" letter, and also to generate a
"we're sorry but another candidate was chosen for req #______ for which
you applied" when that req is closed out?  Seems almost trivial to me.
I don't think long drawn out explanations are needed, especially since
some folks seem to routinely apply for reqs that are more than 2 levels
above their present position and for which they have few evident skills.
But the simple notification of "received-and-forwarded (to the hiring
manager)" and "sorry, you didn't get it" seems like common decency and
not difficult to program.
								paul

    re: 67-87...advertsing for the Colorado Springs & Atlanta positions
    
    The ad appeared in the Jan. 14, 1991 issue of COMPUTERWORLD.  Looks
    like we've gone nationwide with our needs for the folllowing skills:
    
    VAX/VMS System Management
    VAX/VMS Internals & performance
    VIA products (Rdb, DBMS, CDD+)
    DECnet
    Ultrix/Open Systems
    NETsupport
    C
    Fortran
    UNIX
    X-Windows
    MS-DOS
    OS/2
    PCSA
    TCP/IP
    UNIX operating system internals
    EMC/EMI
    
    Mark
    

    The biggest pain I have with recruiters is that so many of them are
    (or were) contract "outsiders".  To my direct experience, they're
    nice folks but don't know sh** from Shinola about Digital or the jobs in
    question.
    
    I once flew to Greenville, S.C. to interview for a training manager
    job at the plant.  Would you believe that the recruiter/primary inter-
    viewer turned out to be a contractor that lived down the street from
    me in Nashua ferkrisakes!!  He flew down to S.C. on the same plane I
    did.  I won't even mention that he didn't know anything about training.
    
    Disgusting.
                        

    RE: .102
    
    I am responding to the comment about IS systems/applications in
    Personnel.  I write these applications as do many other very good IS
    people.  The problem is not with IS systems/applications.  It is the
    same old story, getting users to use them. 
    
    The recruiters are responsible for all the information on the VTX Jobs
    Book.  Many requisitions are on there that date from 1989.  Many reqs
    are on there that are really on "hold" but the employment people will
    not remove them from the Jobs Book just in case they can interview
    candidates some week.  Maybe the hiring managers want them there so
    that they can cut  "authorized headcount" and not lose people if they
    have to cut.
    
    Many recruiters have taken the "package"/new jobs in the last
    several months due to Personnel's "right-sizing".  I'm sure that
    some of the requisitions are trying to find new "owners" (recruiters).  
    
    I don't think anyone should blame IS Personnel Systems for Employment
    people not being able to use electronic mail!
    
    Patti

    Hey folks - there is another strategy...  If you are not happy with
    their manner of disqualifying you, can't get an answer, or you just
    want to make an *excellent* impression - I've found the way that 
    works best for me.  Do my homework on the job I want (company etc.) 
    grab my updated resume, get in my best suit and GO to the darn place.
    
    I've gotten more "....impossible to get" jobs that way!  Sure the
    personnel representative might stand in your way still - but, with
    a warm body on their door step its' a lot harder to ignore your
    friendly but assertive self.  And, you must be ready for *anything*
    from snubbing to interviewing all day.
    
    If going there physically is not possible, try to contact someone
    already there and see what they can find out for you.  Perhaps all
    the information you can USE is on the job requisition posted on the
    bulletin board.
    
    Of course, like all *interviews* you must be on your best behavior
    - even with that person working to slam the door.  
    
    One of the most "impossible to get" jobs I've gotten that way was
    with the U.S. Forest Service living in a fire look-out tower,
    firefighting, and number of great experiences.  That was a GREAT 
    student summer job.  And, eventually, I turned that into a Co-op 
    position.  I did some research and then drove to the ranger station
    in the forest I wanted to work at, and ended up in the District
    Ranger's office that day.
    
    Just go for it!  If your easily discouraged, perhaps you don't want
    it that much.                                                    

  Re -.1: That is excellent advice. I have done it a few times.
  Re posting jobs that are not available company-wide: There is one VTX Jobs
database for all of the U.S. If a job is restricted to one group (such as CSC),
the only way to reach all CSC locations is to post it company wide. However,
the hiring manager can and should say "Open to XXX Group employees only" if that
is the case. I have seen this occasionally on postings.
  Re: CSC's need people in other regions and there are excess people in MA/NH:
Why not set up a CSC in NH? That would be a good way to keep from losing a few
people in NH and MA who have skills that would be suitable for CSC's but don't
want to move out of New England, no matter how generous the relo is. I suppose
the phone bills would be a little higher because NH is not a central location
like Atlanta and Colorado are.

  I have a question about layoffs. If someone is notified that he is going to be
laid off, can he look for another internal job and, if he gets an offer before
terminating, accept the offer and remain a DEC employee? This question is spe-
cific to layoffs as opposed to voluntary buyouts. I realize that it's unlikely
someone could go on an internal interview and get an offer within the notice 
period (4 weeks?) for layoffs, but it could happen.

    My understanding is that when you are laid off, that's it.  No
    opportunity for interviewing for another job internally.  My
    understanding also is that there will be no real notice given...the 
    13+ weeks pay covers the notice period.
    
    But, this is just my understanding.
    

     RE: .108
     
     Bob, according  to  two  independent  sources  (which represents two
     different VP's &  organizations),  the word is that you get escorted
     out the door the  same day you get told that you have been laid off.
     That is what my manager  told us, and that is what personnel told my
     Wife's group.
     
     I have also heard a rumor  that  you  are  likely  to have your ENET
     account  "locked"  on  you,  prior  to  them  telling  you...but  no
     confirmation on this yet.
     
     Not  a  nice  picture...even Raytheon gave employees 2  or  4  weeks
     notice (I can't recall...it was lots of years ago)!

re: .110 (escorted to the door)
     
>     Not  a  nice  picture...even Raytheon gave employees 2  or  4  weeks
>     notice (I can't recall...it was lots of years ago)!

This practice is basically in the interests of security, as i understand
it.  Not a nice picture, but then security issues never are...

								paul

    It may be that management wants to convince an employee that has been
    here for say 10 years that they are not trusted, not wanted, and better
    not ever show their face around here again.  Or maybe it is their best
    shot at motivating the survivors?

    And of course in Raytheon, if you do anything to endanger the
    work there (at least on military contracts), you can be tried
    for treason.  That tends to keep those angry with the company
    from the temptation of becoming too irrational.

Re .113:

>    And of course in Raytheon, if you do anything to endanger the
>    work there (at least on military contracts), you can be tried
>    for treason.  That tends to keep those angry with the company
>    from the temptation of becoming too irrational.

That must explain why "Larry from Lowell", an alleged Raytheon technical writer,
was on WBZ early last night claiming the company fulfilled a U.S. order to
preposition Patriots quite a while ago, implying some conspiracy to start the
war.
				/AHM

re: 1333.107 "Set up a CSC in NH?"

There *is* a CSC in Massachusetts - has been for ~10 years.

Pete

    re .110
    
    And we were told that you will be on the payroll for 9 weeks while
    you sit at home and then you come back for your exit interview and the
    TFSO money.  We were also told to expect another 10K layoff in FY92.

	... long time employees, especially considering how I've seen more
than one salespersons in my District given free run of the place for AT
LEAST two weeks after giving their notice to go to work for a competitor (or
one of our more notorious "partners"!).

.115> Title:  Someone already did
.115>re: 1333.107 "Set up a CSC in NH?"
.115>
.115>There *is* a CSC in Massachusetts - has been for ~10 years.

	NH is *not* Massachusetts and suggesting that having a CSC in MA is
	close to the same thing as having a CSC in NH is nieve at best and
	offensive at worst. For someone who lives in NH to take a job in
	MA can be very expensive. A 6% (or close to it) pay cut for one
	thing and additional commuting costs for an other.  

			Alfred

    re: .116

>    And we were told that you will be on the payroll for 9 weeks while
>    you sit at home and then you come back for your exit interview and the
>    TFSO money.

    Does that mean they are paid weekly from their TFSO benefits for nine
    weeks and then receive a lump sum for the remainder, or that they
    receive nine weeks of pay in addition to the TFSO benefits?

    Did anyone explain the reason for such a lengthy delay between
    termination and the exit interview?

   re .back a few
   
   I think Raytheon will be the last company thinking of layoffs right now. I
   dare say they have more work than they can handle...
   
   q
   

    re .120:
    
    Sounded like the 9 weeks were in addition but I can't say for sure.
    We were told the delay had to do with some state (MA?) law.  We were
    not given many details.
    
    Sounded like the selection process was to be complete by the end of
    Jan or very early Feb.

    I have it from a highly placed source that when you are "selected", you
    will be gone that day.  Don't be surprised, if you are not even allowed
    to go back to your cubicle.  Same source confirms the 10,000 plus
    number for FY92.  I hear also that business units have to have their
    numbers in by the 28th of January.
    
    On the CSC issue.  If they need people that badly, it's time that
    people were simply re-assigned to Colorado Springs and Atlanta, period.
    There shouldn't be an issue of whether they "want" to go.  Some of the
    NewEngland-o-Philes need to get out in the real world anyhow.  Try it,
    you might like it.

    Ref: .114  I don't exactly think "Larry from Lowell" is going to
               endanger the Patriot program right now, do you?
    
    Ref: .121  Raytheon may be, "...the last company thinking of layoffs,"
               but they are.  Many people aren't aware of the *many* products
               they research and manufacture, such as "Caloric" appliances,
    	       marine technology and supplies, etc.  And, as far as military 
    	       hardware goes, Department of Defense has been putting many
               programs and contracts on hold, as well as outright canceling 
               them.  The only Raytheon employees feeling safe right now, are 
    	       those manufacturing the Patriot missile.

    I've seen reference in this topic to the rumour of laying off people in
    FY92. I'm trying to understand the logic behind talking/planning for
    layoffs in the future?
    
    If I was king... I'd work out how many people needed to be laid off and
    lay them off now not wait until later. In that way those that are left
    can get on with their job secure in the knowledge that they haven't
    been earmarked for a later layoff. Sure conditions could change forcing
    the company to do another layoff. But why plan for one? Anybody like to
    explain this me?
    
    Dave

    re .123. If you aren't allowed back to your cube and you have personal
    stuff in there, how are you to get it. I have some papers in my file
    that are nobdy's business but my own and I also have some books and
    catalogs (not DIGITAL property or DIGITAL related) at my cube. I want
    them back if I get tapped for this.  Do I have legal grounds to demand
    that I be allowed to get them. Personel required me to produce a copy
    of my divorce agreement to prove that the courts required me to cover
    my kids medical insurance. I keep this copy locked up in my cube. I
    want it if I have to leave. (I won't get into whether or not personel
    had a right to see my divorce papers or not.)
    
    Phil

    I may have over-stated the case.  What will probably happen is that you
    will be escorted back by a security guard and/or your immediate
    supervisor, and they will observe what you take.
    
    I have, however, seen the opposite.  In Collins Radio in the 60's,
    security packed the poor slob up while he was getting layed off, and
    then met him at the door with a box.
    
    These days, given the state of some of the cubicles I've seen, some
    people will need a fork-lift and small moving van to get all their
    junk out.  As a matter of fact, I've seen some offices where people
    could hide out for a few days at least.    

    re: .126
    
    It seems only prudent to take home anything you wouldn't wish to lose
    in the event that you were laid off.
        John Sauter

    Yea, John, it might. I feel that I want to keep my cube as "homey" as
    possible and will leave my stuff here. I will take important papers
    though.
    
    Phil

    Re .125, and the issue of planning for future lay-offs.  While such
    long term planning might seem strange initially, in a company as
    grossly over-staffed as DEC, it is probably appropriate.  I think
    they are carefully trying to coordinate future product staffing and
    arrange priorities so that the effect of future lay-offs will not be
    so devastating.  
    
    Also, don't forget that a lot of it is probably contingency planning,
    i.e., "IF/THEN" type stuff.  With heavy FY92 budget and project
    planning underway right now, I do not see how layoffs could not be
    part of the formula.

    	re:  NH CSC
    
    	I couldn't imagine how a distributed CSC would work (distributed
    	for a given product.)  For instance, the VIA support is here
    	in Colorado Springs.  As was mentione earlier, an important
    	aspect of the success here is the teamwork and knowledge sharing.
    	We don't even want a specialist working from HOME on a regular
    	basis, let alone NH (or NJ or WA or wherever else they don't
    	want to move from.)  We need the close proximity to our fellow 
    	specialists for a successful operation.  If a handful of our 
    	specialists were in Spit Brook, we would not be as effective on 
    	a day-to-day basis as we are today.
    
    	Now that is not to say that NEW PRODUCTS couldn't be supported
    	from a new CSC in NH.  I don't know what the logistical
    	implications would be for hooking a new CSC into the 800 network
    	and all...
    
    	But currently DEC is looking to fill existing CSC positions for
    	current products, and the respective CSCs for those products are
    	in Atlanta and Colorado Springs.
    	
    	Here's a thought for those of you who want to work for the CSC
    	but don't want to leave NH.  We have an engineering backup
    	support channel called CSSE for most if not all products.  CSSE
    	is in NH in most cases.  I have no idea if they are hiring or not.
    	I do not know who the respective managers for particular products
    	are.  But the go-getter could sure find out, and probably carve a 
    	niche for him/herself there.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

RE: The CSC thing, replies .115, .118

From what I understand the Westboro, Ma. CSC is going to be dissolved 
soon.  I believe it will merge with the Atlanta and Colorado CSCs.  I 
don't believe this is any big secret.   Apparently, they can no longer 
justify a CSC here in the Northeast.

Also, thanks for the suggestions re: this topic.

John (still_trying_to_get_to_CXO_and_OUT_of_Mass)

    re: .132 CSSE mostly co-locate with engineering. Thus, we're in ZK,
    sure, but also in the Mill and indeed Reading, England.
    
    	- andy (CSSE, Reading, England)

    
    
    As a former employee of the Westboro CSC and with many friends and
    former co-workers still working there, the word that I have been
    getting is that the CSC is not going to be going away.  In fact they
    just moved over to Shrewsbury because Westboro was a rented building.
    

    RE: 132
    
    We do have support engineers working remote from the CSC's both in the
    local offices and at home. The program is called Unified-Support. We
    have access to the same databases as the CSC's and use the same
    software to take calls as the CSC's. They are still looking for
    additional people to work in Unified-Support. We support individules
    from all over the US from each of our locations. Usually each engineer
    is responsible for specific products (ex. tapes, disks, pc's etc.).
    
    Regards
    AL ROOT
    

    	.136 gave me an idea.  Al just let us know that a particular
    	group is looking for people.  I did the same about certain
    	software CSC groups a few replies back.

    	This informal exchange of known openings could be just the
    	ticket for some people who may otherwise be transitioned out
    	or laid off in the near future.

    	It is obvious to me that you can't always find what you want
    	through personnel, even if it exists.  And not all managers use
    	(or know how to use) OASS::JOBS to post their open reqs.  

    	I have received several mail and phone inquiries regarding what
    	I have entered here about CSC openings.  Perhaps there should be
    	a more open and free flow of information about job openings (or
    	possible job openings) in this conference.  It would be unofficial
    	unlike JOBS where the responsible hiring manager places the ad.
    	Instead, readers interested in what we say can contact us offline
    	to get a manager's name for the opening.  We can make the job
    	"network" easier for people to find.

    	I really don't know if such a discussion fits the intended contents
    	of HUMANE::DIGITAL, but it could be a big boost to alot of folks.

    	Comments?  Any moderator objections?

    	Joe Oppelt

Re .137:

>Perhaps there should be
>    	a more open and free flow of information about job openings (or
>    	possible job openings) in this conference.

I disagree.

The stated purpose of this conference is the discussion and informal resolution
of issues surrounding how we work in Digital.

>It would be unofficial
>    	unlike JOBS where the responsible hiring manager places the ad.
>    	Instead, readers interested in what we say can contact us offline
>    	to get a manager's name for the opening.

Contrary to your claim, the stated purpose of the OASS::JOBS conference is:

"
        The JOBS conference is an informal place for Digital employees
        to exchange information about employment within the company.  It
        should be considered a supplement to official channels such as
        personnel and the "Jobs Book". Think of it as an extension of
        the 'good old boy' network of seeking out job information, and
        it carries the same risks and biases.
"

If you think the JOBS conference no longer serves these purposes, then either
work to fix it, or open a new conference which isn't broken.

Don't try and fix JOBS by breaking DIGITAL.
				/AHM/THX

    
    These jobs are not open to all people. Support people (24CC) are the
    only ones filling these jobs as far as I know. Here is a sample list to
    give you an idea of the CSC needs. References to QUEUES are referring to
    CSC focal groups and calls going to those groups. Some of these jobs
    are short duration jobs and some are long. It depends on the needs of
    individual groups in the CSC. Requests for help are sent to the
    different support groups on a regular basis.
    
    Regards
    Al Root
    
*****************************************************************************
W E E K L Y
-----------

UNIFIED SUPPORT NEEDS (priority listed, unfilled)
-------------------------------------------------

Queue Name						Notes


ISGVAX	24 calls/day/total from que, (or 4 tech's)	;HW & SW, highend VAX

ISGVAX	12  "     "    "     "   "   (or 4 tech's)	;this is a cluster
							;request, CDA's

SDSPCT   8  "     "    "     "   "   (or 2 tech's)      ;Atlanta PC's & term's

ISSVAX	12  "     "    "     "   "   (or 2 tech's)	;both HW & SW, 4 months,
							;micro-VAX

ISGTAP  14  "     "    "     "   "   (or 1 tech)	;
							;

ISGPRI  14  "     "    "     "   "   (or 1 tech)	;




*****************************************************************************

Needs in Man days

	Options			              VAX
	---------------------------------------------------------------------
        DIS   TAP   PRI   		CDA   HDW   uVAX   PC/Term	Total
Queue ISGDIS ISGTAP ISGPRI	      ISGVAX ISGVAX ISSMVE SDSPCT
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Daily	       1     1			 4     4      2	     2             14
Weekly         5     5                  20    20     10     10		   70
Monthly       20    20                  80    80     40     40            280
Qrtly         65    65                 260   260    130    130            910
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Expected
calls 
per day  14   14    14                   3     6      6      8
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Needs in Call Volume
Daily    14   14    14                  12    24     12     12             88
Weekly   70   70    70                  60   120     60     60            440
Monthly 280  280   280                 240   480    240    240           1760
Qrtly   910  910   910                 780  1560    780    780           5720

*****************************************************************************
                                                

    One more time people...when you're tapped for lay-off, you're gone that
    day.  There will be no opportunity to look around for another job.
    
    This ain't the old DEC any mo'

    One more thought....AMPEX here in Colorado Springs laid off 240 people
    last week.  They were given 20 minutes to gather personal belongings,
    and then as they filed in the auditorium were handed an 80-word letter
    which started out "Dear Laid-Off Employee......."  Nice, Huh??
    
    Oh, they also got two weeks pay and one month health care extension.

This is just a thought but ..

A one point back in 1975, I interviewed with a Hi Tech company that was hiring
at that time.  The person I talked to was very up-front.  He said that the
company had a major layoff about every five years and that if you survived the
first one, you would most likely be OK during any future layoffs.  I then
made my decision to not work for them taking this information as one on the
important inputs.

The point?  When I hired into DEC, it was a well known "fact", that KO felt
layoffs were a failure of management.  Is part of the problem that the current
situation feels like a betrayal of one of the original reasons that people
came to DEC?  I don't know but that is one of the impressions that I get
from reading this note.  And NO plan can make that feel better?

Lee G.

         <<< Note 1333.142 by BASVAX::GREENLAW "Your ASSETS at work" >>>

>The point?  When I hired into DEC, it was a well known "fact", that KO felt
>layoffs were a failure of management.  Is part of the problem that the current
>situation feels like a betrayal of one of the original reasons that people
>came to DEC?  I don't know but that is one of the impressions that I get
>from reading this note.  And NO plan can make that feel better?

>Lee G.

    Sorry Lee, but I can't feel too bad for someone who read something into 
their job that is clearly not part of the job. DEC never promised us jobs 
forever or until we decided to leave. Few companies offer contracts to 
their employees, and those that do would, I suspect, make sure it was clear 
that loss of job was possible with some sort of recompense.

    Digital is being very generous compared to many others. I have worked 
in other fields where 10 minutes notice and no severance pay would be the 
norm or perhaps 2 weeks pay plus accrued vacation. Certainly nothing along 
the lines of what many employees here will collect as Digital is forced to 
make their cuts. We may not like it, and you may feel betrayed, but Ken 
Olsen has never said "never" to layoffs from what I can tell. 

    I don't like it either, but it is one of the tough things that has to 
be done this time around.

    Vic H

    I'm not letting Digital off the hook too fast.  While I wasn't
    promised that there would never be layoffs, employees and shareholders
    had the expectations...

    (1) Digital's hiring in 1986 through 1989 would be based on some
    rational long-range plan that would prepare us for the 1990's.  It
    turns out there wasn't any.  Hiring was out of control.

    (2) Digital would recognize as other computer companies had, that the
    computer industry is structurally changing from minicomputers to
    smaller microprocessor based systems and from proprietary to open
    systems.

    These expectations were not met and  the surviving senior managers are
    apologizing.

RE:143

Vic, I did not say that I believe the myth.  I have worked too many places
that had to do layoffs to survive.  There has to be give and take in all
contracts, written or implied.  If I can leave DEC with two weeks notice,
there is no reason that DEC can not leave me with the same notice (or pay
for the time).  BUT my original point was that many people did believe and
now are feeling betrayed.  And because they believed, there is no package
that can compensate for the feelings of pain. IMHO

Lee G.

    
    Re: .145
    
    Yes, that is an important point that many are not willing to 
    recognize as valid.  The worst of it, however, is not the 
    feelings of betrayal among those laid off, but the feelings
    of those NOT laid off who are now being depended on to return
    to their work and contribute to turning the company around.
    
    This will without doubt cause a significant although subtle
    shift in the attitude that DEC's employees have toward the
    company.  Among the more salient points that Japan has made
    in response to U.S. criticism of our mutual business dealings
    is how U.S. companies accept no responsibility to their
    employees.  We hire and fire without giving it a second thought
    blowing it off as "well, that's just how it goes."  Japan has
    been trying to tell us for some time that to be competitive in
    the long term, you have to have a secure, reliable, and loyal
    workforce.  You don't get that by laying people off.  You get
    that by good management which among others things ensures that
    you don't hire willy nilly and end up with hordes of excess
    people who you "have to get rid of" and then have to deal with
    the remaining ones who come to work every day thereafter thinking
    "it could be me next" instead of how to work more effectively
    for the company.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

Re:  .142

Yes, I believe there definitely is something to what you say.  There are
some who feel they have been standing on soapboxes of some sort for several
years saying "management" is, oh, running us into the ground.  (Let's just
say that instead of the specifics that one sees over the years, in this
notes file, for example....And avoid discussions of senior vs. middle-level
management.  I'm not arguing a point here, just rationalizing a point of
view.)

These folks now feel angry/betrayed/frustrated to feel it has come to this
(i.e. the "L" word) after a constant litany of "we in management need to
listen to the troops in the field."  (Or words to that effect.)

I believe the "listening" was a crock, and there is little hard evidence
of "listening."  Thus, I find it easy to agree with .144.

Feeling this way means that while .143 is a logical response, and makes sense
in my head, it doesn't satisfy my gut (or soothe my frustrated ulcer) at all.
I go home at the end of the day feeling Digital REALLY missed an opportunity
over the last 3-4 years.  Arrogance.  "The money will ALWAYS keep rolling in."

	- bL

    I support .144's position completely....and the blame resides at the
    highest levels in the company.
    
    Also, don't fall all over yourselves admiring the Japanese's no-layoff
    policies.  Part of their secret is a VERY extensive useage of
    contractors, temporaries, and captive-yet-separate suppliers.  If
    Digital took a similar approach we could probably have operated with
    a hard-core staff of 50-60,000, and farmed the rest of the work out.
    
    Also agree that we have been in a hiring frenzy the past few years.
    Somebody should have said "NO".  Unfortunately, it still goes on.
      

    re:148 
    Somebody did say "Stop", actually Jack Smith himself did, way back when
    first salary freeze went into effect. I know that for a fact since I read
    the memo. The scary part is nobody listened and THAT may be an artifact
    of a so called "unstructured" company. 
    
    
    Franc.   

    
    
    I'm just curious. When are the layoffs suppose to occur? All this
    talk and I just haven't seen it happening yet. Is there some sort
    of D-DAY? No rumors, just the facts please. ;)
    
    
    Brian

    
    RE: .151
    
    Here at Westfield, the date for Management Selected termination can be
    no sooner than March 26, 1991 but no later than June 30, 1991. Due to
    the potential magnitude of the involutary down sizing, a U.S. Federal
    law refered to as the Warn Act was applicable. The two main criteria
    for a Warn act notice is the layoff of fifty or more employees or the 
    closure of the facility (yes, the same notice as PNO...). In either case
    sixty days notice is required. The information I received indicated
    that a Warn notice is a defined window - on July 1, 1991 Westfield will
    need to re-notify for another layoff or facility closure.
    
    Now I wish that the Selection criteria was clearly defined, once one
    gets involved with equal Performance Appraisals...
    
    Carl

    It's taken awhile to catch up in this note.....but some notes
    I've read seem to contradict what I see happening here at the
    CSC in Atlanta.....other notes (sadly) confirm the difficulty
    in getting interviewed for a job where you *are* qualified!!
    
    *   I work in Remote Sales Support; this group has grown from
    	approximately 13 people 2  years ago...to approximately 60
    	people today, I moved from another group within the CSC to
    	RSS.  However, the bulk of our headcount came from All Hands
    	on Deck and now C.O.D.  We have one more C.O.D. person (now
    	out on maternity leave) expected to join the team in March.
    
    	With the exception of about 10 people who came from Colorado
    	and other locations; the bulk of our new people relocated
    	from NH & Mass.
    
    * 	RSS still had 7 open reqs when the last TFSO package was
    	announced.....those 7 reqs have been cancelled.  There could
    	be some technical SW groups that have *some* _read few_ openings;
    	but the feeling around the CSC/AT is that we are not going to
    	see a great influx of people coming here from *anywhere*!
    
    	We've lost a few people......we aren't being allowed to replace
    	them.
    
    * 	The note that really blew my mind is the person who was turned
    	down for a CRR job because they don't have a degree!!  Just
    	goes to show how far out of touch some folks in recruiting
    	have become.  
    
    	I was the first CRR hired for the Atlanta CSC almost 11 years
    	ago.....my "formal" education ended when I graduated from
    	high school!!  Good grief, who needs a degree to learn how
    	to answer a call and route it to the proper support group?
    	Something seems amiss with that.....I would think a person
    	with a degree would be bored and definitely over-qualified!
    
    *   I had to "go around" folks in personnel to get my present job.
     	Since I was associated with an administrative group after a
    	previous group disbanded, when I first inquired about the
    	position in RSS I was told "you don't have the technical
    	background" for that group.  I asked the gal how she could be
    	so sure, since she hadn't had a chance to look at my resume.
    	The position was for a specialist on the SW Services and
    	Licensing team.  Six years ago I was the licensing focal
    	person for the entire CSC/AT.....I had been loaned to SE
    	District SW Services group to help when they lost people
    	and were short handed.  As I said, the individual knew me
    	and IMHO was making an arbitrary decision because she thought
    	I was only capable of administrative tasks.  This individual
    	also mentioned the necessity of a degree.
    
    	I had people on the RSS Services and Licensing team walking to
    	my desk asking when I was going to apply for a position....
    	once I mentioned the difficulty I was having getting around
    	recruiting/personnel....one the the ICs took my resume, handed
    	it to the UM.....2 days later I had the interview....and was
    	hired.
    
    	The only time I heard from the gal who initially said I wasn't
    	qualified is when she called me to slap my hands for circumvent-
    	ing policies and procedures when applying for a posted posi-
    	tion :-) :-)  My last 2 PA's have been most satisfying and
    	the response from sales reps in the field has been mosts re-
    	warding.....they are very generous with the "attagirls".
    
    *	The RSS group is spread out over the CSC in Colorado and
    	Atlanta.  Colorado handles high-end systems and wide area
    	networks.....Atlanta handles mid-low systems and local area
    	networks.  Initally, we did attempt to have some of our
    	services and licensing people in Colorado, but we found it
    	very difficult to share information uniformly between the
    	2 locations.....so all services and licensing is handled
    	out of Atlanta.  What I experienced with my team makes me
    	a little skeptical also of someone providing telephone support
    	from a location other than one of the CSCs.  I'm not saying
    	the individual isn't qualified, but you wouldn't have the
    	databases to tap into that we do.  I handled a few calls
    	from home last week when we were hit with ice and snow....
    	but it was dicey at best....and I was only pulling calls
    	out of the Call Back queue that I knew I could answer without
    	having access to my Sales Updates and other documentation
    	sitting on my desk, i.e. I can quote PATHWORKS in my sleep :-)
    
    Karen
    
    
    
    
    

    Re .151.....Patience.  No, I don't think you will see anything remotely
    like a Corporate "D" Day.  The manner in which down-sizings are
    implemented will vary by organization and geography.  That's the
    way it should be.
    
    The Corporation has formally stated that the lay-offs will be
    completed by the end of the fiscal year.  You're not going to see
    anything better than that.
    
    I just wish they'd take genuine volunteers........would you stop
    tapping me on the shoulder, please!!!!!