Conference 7.286::digital

    re: .1
    
    Sounds to me that this is addressing the OpenVMS systems that support
    the current corporate ALL-IN-1 systems.  It's not stated, but it might
    be implied, as the focus of that memo was MS Exchange.
    
    A global shutdown of all OpenVMS systems would be insanity.  Period.
    
    -- Russ

    re: Note 5239.0 by NYOSS1::TJIONAS
    
    I think you're over reacting a bit. Obviously, if you have concerns
    about losing a resource you need to do your job, you should take this
    up with your management.
    
    Ken....
    

I am not over-reacting. I am facing the reality. I know I am not alone on this.
I talked on the phone and my impression is that nothing was planed to keep our
VMS accounts.

From a phone conversation with Marrie Perras I was informed that the
VMS cluster in NYO, KYO and several (if not many - she has a long list)
other sites are going away - so are our VMS accounts who reside on
those VAXes. ... and the reason is cost$$$$ maintaining/keeping them.
Clearly she was following orders - She is the messenger.
She was clear "WE'LL SHUT DOWN THE VMS ACCOUNTS AND WE'LL GIVE YOU
AN MS EXCHANGE ACCOUNT. PERIOD. THAT'S THE DECISION. THE REST, TAKE IT
WITH YOUR MANAGER" which I did.

George    

	Time to get a VMS system off of DIAL?

							mike

    re: .3
    Taking the issue up with your manager was exactly the right thing.
    
    I hope the VMS systems being shut down were the CCS provided and
    managed ones for mail, VTX, and other office character-cell apps.
    
    The problem is that NSIS and other orgs are probably dependent on them
    for other work for their specific job function - and now their own
    org might need to pick up systems to do this -> but is there any plan
    and budget to really execute it?  Well, at least there should be plenty
    of VMS gear available, since so much is being turned off. 

If someone hits you in the knee with a baseball bat you will scream.  I don't
think that is over reacting.

	mikeP

    <<< Note 5239.2 by CAMPY::ADEY "PC Server...now there's an oxymoron!" >>>

    re: Note 5239.0 by NYOSS1::TJIONAS
    
    I think you're over reacting a bit. Obviously, if you have concerns
    about losing a resource you need to do your job, you should take this
    up with your management.
    
    Ken....
    

> and the reason is cost$$$$ maintaining/keeping them.

I thought OpenVMS systems were *much* cheaper to run than PCs.

And since when do people need an OpenVMS account for mail only?

I guess those of us who want or need OpenVMS access have to manage our own
systems.  Actually, I've done it for years and have never been sorry.  The
problem used to be old versions of the operating systems and applications.  Now
it's no system at all!

Paul

    re : Note 5239.0 by NYOSS1::TJIONAS 

    The message you quote from Marie Perras makes me think that the people
    that made the decision think the only thing done with these VMS systems
    is mail. 

    It does however include:


>By
>now, specific issues which would prevent us from deleting accounts and fully
>migrating to Exchange should have been sent in writing to me or Dave
>Chisamore.  If not, please forward your concerns immediately.

    So I would suggest you forward your concerns, and then look for a new
    place to do you VMS work.  

    -Bruce

    re: Note 5239.7
               
>> and the reason is cost$$$$ maintaining/keeping them.
>
>I thought OpenVMS systems were *much* cheaper to run than PCs.

    If you are going to go to exchange and have purchased hardware to
    support it, the cost of also keeping VMS machines IF YOU THINK ALL
    PEOPLE DO ON VMS IS READ MAIL could be considered costly.

    If they have older VMS machines, the cost of computer room space, power
    and field service can be high.

    -Bruce 

    
    	If only the people who actually need VMS systems are allowed to
    	keep their accounts, then the issue of floor space for the mach-
    	ines shouldn't be much of an issue due to the fact that there
    	will be that many fewer machines required to service the people.
    
    	I'm facing the problem of over 100 VMS .COM files that will need
    	to be rewritten into some sort of PC language ... not to mention
    	the files and databases that the .COM files are using for data
    	[DATATRIEVE, MAXCIM].  That's going to be a pain.
    

    
    I think the "take it up with your manager" argument is a good start.
    However, before you do:
    
    1. ascertain the purpose for the shutdowns, is the argument just for
    mail?
    2. Have they missed something? Like the 10 or so other applications
    running on the system.
    3. Try to come up with an estimate on what:
    	a. the business impact of not having those systems is
    	b. the migration paths from the current state
    		i. rewriting on another platform, buying new database sw etc
    		ii.buying a smaller VAX or something and,
    			a. managing it yourself
    			b. having IS manage it with donations from your CC
    
    You need to be able to justify the capability you need to do your job, 
    otherwise you'll be collateral damage in any rollout. The political
    imperative to get new systems out seems to override any consideration
    for the actual business consequences of the action. Pathetic, really.
    
    Good luck,
    John
    
    
      

	One other application I can think of, that is on one of the servers
	slated to go away, is TMS. Unless I missed something about TMS being
	ported to NT with PC clients we can all use on out laptops, this is 
	going to make it a little difficult for the field people to process
	their expenses. 

	Although maybe this is another cost saveing measure from the same
	folks who thought cutting revenue generating employees 
	would save us bags of money 8^(

    Gee. I thought VMS and NT were almost the same, written by the same
    person and all ;-).  Can't you use the affinity stuff and work with
    NT???
    
    UNIX support suffered, and still suffers from a lack of UNIX systems,
    it would be a dreadful mistake to have the OVMS people have to live
    without ready access to VAX and ALPHA OVMS systems.
    
    Maybe MicroSoft is our good friend because they think they can
    eventually replace all of those OVMS systems with NT systems and we
    have decided they are right.
    
    Although I am a UNIX person and believe that much of the market is
    better served with UNIX servers than with OVMS servers, I do recognize
    the importance of OVMS to many of our customers and to our company. 
    OVMS will slowly die down, we should never do anything to hasten
    that. I sure hope everyone that needs it will have access to OVMS for a
    long time to come.
    
    
    

    The cost of OpenVMS machines is an IDENTIFIED cost and attributed to
    CCS.  CCS is under the gun to reduce costs.  SO they are DISPLACING
    costs to individual desktops.
    
    Bottom line, Digital is cost averse.  If you have identified costs
    Digital's mentality has always been to get rid of it.  Unfortunately
    Digital does NOT understand that cost, attributed to the right place,
    can be measured and controlled.
    
    THAT is why we're in the state that we're in.  We kill identified costs
    to replace them with more hidden costs.  A PC costs an organization
    $40,000 over it's lifetime....and that's a hidden cost.  
    
    Our oold dumb terminal mail which did 90% of the stuff we needed was
    much cheap, but politically incorrect and an identified cost.  So it
    became a target.  One reason why we're sinking and got written up in
    Business week as doing so poorly this past week..
    
    Aarugh,
    j
    

    re .14
    
     >>Unfortunately Digital does NOT understand that cost, attributed to the 
   >> right place,can be measured and controlled.
    
    You are right.I even heard a VP saying something like: "we were
    spending billions on SG&A but we didn't know where it was going." 
    
    So it seems to me the cost accountants are not doing their job. When
    you recall that all those reorgs were one big effort to get costs under
    control, this failure of the accounting function is appalling. 
    
    In this case you need to add the cost of deskilling the VMS
    consultants. Without a VMS machine, they will be out of date in 6-12
    months. 
    
    And then when our VMS customers are looking for support, they will
    begin to understand the monkey ads. 
    
   ..Kevin..

    Get a grip folks.....
    
    I will also miss the CCS provided VMS systems, but I'm kinda confused
    about people's issues.  From my perspective the CCS provided machine
    gives me:
    
    	Function	Replacement
    
    1.  ALL-IN-1	replaced by Exchange
    2.	VMSmail 	see above  ;^)
    3.	VTX access 	can access from PC or use Web access if available
    4.	Notes access 	same as #3
    5.	AQS		????
    6.	Disk space	NT server ... how do I transfer those VMS savesets?
    
    BTW, we don't use TMS!
    
    We have been told that all the various OA clusters across Canada will
    be consolidated into one cluster in Kanata.  Access will still be given
    on a business requirement basis (even an ALL-IN-1 account!).  So it
    appears that for those who still require VMS access there is a route. 
    It is a consolidation, not an elimination.
    
    Quite frankly if you need more VMS access then you should look at your
    own local VMS node.  I've had one for years to provide extra file copy
    space and with a tape drive to cut kits.  It also provided the ability
    to play/learn on a system where I have privs.  The CCS machines were
    never good playgrounds or intended to be development machines.
    
    There's tons of VMS hardware headed for the crusher.  A VAXstation VLC
    with a reasonable amount of disk makes a  nice small server ... even
    for a home office if you don't have an office where you can plug it
    onto the EASYnet.  

    Here (in Munich) the CCS-supported ALL-IN-1 clusters are disappearing -
    but I don't see it as an impact for OpenVMS support. these are
    production machines, and haven't been used for support purposes anyway
    (most users can't even get to the DCL prompt, let alone having
    privileges).
    
    

    
    
    	As an admin. support person, the eventual transition will
    	be a painful one.  All of the systems I need to get to, to
    	file TMS expenses, input salary planning, reserve conference
    	rooms, etc. are VMS.  So in addition to having to unlearn
    	VMS and learn Exchange, the admin's will also have to learn
    	the new processes for the things we do on a daily/weekly
    	basis.  I'm not a very technical person but I don't see how
    	having EVERYONE spend the time to learn a new system, and 
    	writing new code for all the processes, can be saving us money.
    
    	And in re: to a couple back in regards to notes being accessible
    	via the web or a PC.  If all the notesfiles are currently on
    	VMS systems, wouldn't someone have to take on the task of 
    	doing whatever needs to be done to make them strictly web/PC
    	accessible before VMS goes away?  (I hope that makes sense)
    	I think this might be a way for the "powers that be" to do away
    	with notesfiles.  Which is really very sad because ALOT of good
    	information is available to us via the notesfiles.
    
    	JJ

    
    	Yes, JJ, that made plenty of sense, and I was going to mention it
    	if you didn't.
    
    	NOTES has to be stored on some sort of machine, and right now the
    	machine of choice is the VAX.  Take away everyone's means of ac-
    	cessing the conferences and you also take away everyone's means
    	of storing them.
    

    We received notification yesterday that our VMS/ALL-IN-1 accounts would
    be deleted on 4/25 -- 9 working days' notice.  Given that we're into
    the FY98 planning cycle, this doesn't leave much time for anyone to
    transition things over and get their PC's set up to be able to access
    TMS, the salary management system, Cosmos to order supplies, the IPA
    system for Purchase Orders, etc.  As the lone administrator for an NSIS
    practice manager and his local team, who will be responsible for not
    only migrating myself over, but also ensuring that 3 managers are
    migrated over, this timeframe is impossible!  I also find it
    frustrating when trying to access the web -- servers down, long waits
    to connect, etc.  Knowing that my access to ELF will rely on this when
    I have a manager calling in from somewhere around the globe urgently
    asking for a phone number is not a comfortable thought. 
    
    In addition to our VMS/ALL-IN-1 accounts going away, we will also be 
    losing our site server accounts - so there goes extra disk space plus
    our ability to put out on the site server files we need to share with
    others.  Most of the systems people here are using do not have
    sufficient disk space to store personal folders for Exchange, nor to
    hold the files currently located on the site servers.  And they are
    files we cannot currently delete..... it appears little thought has
    gone into the capabilities of our PC's and laptops versus the
    requirements of pulling us off VMS totally.  And to ask for it to be
    done in 9 days is absurd.

re: .-a bunch

As you can see, the "Ready, Fire, Aim" mentality is quite active at Digital.  
And managers wonder why it is taking people longer and longer to do things!!

ps.  I doubt this will be the last 'gem' that is forced on the people doing
     the actual work.

    Re: hosts for notes
    
    Have you noticed just how many notesfiles are moving lately? Many of
    them are moving to HUMANE::, which is one solution.
    
    I hope it gets decent backups...
    
    regards
    john

    
    It's just the latest steps in transforming DEC into a Wintel OEM.
    Sigh.  I just wish they'd spin VMS off into it's own subsidiary.
    
    

    Have you also noted the decrease in use of notes recently?
    
    This is true for notes like DIGITAL, which I will miss because as a
    'home-alone' worker its the only way I get to hear about events around
    DEC. This could be both good and bad, as I do hear a lot of useless
    moaning here, but I also hear good news. 
    
    But it is also true of the technical notes I depend on for answers.
    More and more I see notes go unanswered, or a curt answer like 'file an
    spr'. In the past I could use notes to get good, quick answers. It was
    one big reason customers would pay 2x as much for me as a DEC employee
    than any off the street contractor. As that resource dries up so will our
    extra value. 
    
    Although the WEB offers a lot of possibilities the reality is a very
    slow tool. I suggest some of the folks making these decison try working
    at the end of a phone line, on a laptop PC for a while.
    

Well, you don't need a VAX to host a notes conference.  You don't even need VMS!  
The NETNOTES server will host a notes conference on a Windows NT system just 
fine.  If you want a VMS machine, there are plenty of them available.  We've 
rescued about 4 or 5 that were headed to the crusher within the last six months 
or so.  Our group picked up two VAXstation 4000s, two VAX 4000/500s, and 
numerous VAXstation 3100/76s.  I've personally sent about a half dozen 
VAXstation 3100/38s to the crusher (boy do they seem slow these days).

>     Have you noticed just how many notesfiles are moving lately? Many of
>     them are moving to HUMANE::, which is one solution.
>     
>     I hope it gets decent backups...
    
    You're supposed to back up these VMS machines?
    
    j.

    
    	Don't be silly ... you only have to back up machines that are cap-
    	able of crashing.
    

    So, how do we find these vms machines that are headed for the
    crusher?  I wouldn't mind having one at home.  Is DIAL the place to
    look?  I currently use a VAX 4000-500 tucked away at work because
    the newer ones don't run the version of BASIC (V3.5) I know
    and love.
    

    Basic shouldn't be hardware dependent.  

    Re: .29 Basic shouldn't be hardware dependent.
    
    Uh, you're right.  My brain slipped.  We can't get the kit for 3.5,
    though, and the later versions have good stuff removed (sounds
    like Dec :-), so I'd probably do a lot of copying from our 4000-500s.
                                                  

    when was V3.5 released?  I've got gobs of old cds...

    Well, my brain slipped twice.  V3.5 won't run on Alphas.
    

    I really am appalled at the "OVMS is going to die" sounds I hear.
    
    How much money has IBM made from MVS of late? Which is better, MVS or
    VMS? Sames letters, and from what I read/hear different fates...
    
    
    .mike.

I'll echo the others' advice: Let your manager know what you need.

I work in the same organization as the base noter (NSIS-East)
and my experience is that ANYONE doing ANY VMS support will have a 
MicroVAX (and other systems) at their home office.  Our group also 
has a couple of VMS systems for "general demolition" use in our 
Systems Integration lab.  With the demise/consolidation of many 
groups, there is a LOT of surplus gear around (some of it may even 
run...)  You can do a lot with old equipment.  It may not be state of 
the art, but neither are the CCS systems.

We have found there is great value in equipment self suffiency.  Our 
group maintains our own Dunix, Linux and WNT systems for file 
sharing, training, mail, and data transfer/media conversion.  We 
figure that we can't be expected to maintain and enhance systems for 
our customers unless we can do the same for ourselves.  And yes, we 
do install Exchange servers, but (currently) still use the corporate 
servers.  We haven't bothered to put any equipment under service 
contract.  If it breaks, there are lots of old systems around.

With the isolation that home-alone has brought to those of us at 
customer sites, the sharing of our group's equipment is one element 
that brings us together.  On a personal level, it provides us more 
direct connection and interaction with our comrades.  I'd rather 
depend on my other team members for equipment support and advice than 
call upon a remote CCS person for resources.  My team has more of a 
stake in our mutual success.
	
My 2 cents,
David (dove@rch.dec.com)
NSIS Technology Consultant
	

This is a serious issue - but...

RE: .18
    
>>    	As an admin. support person, the eventual transition will
>>    	be a painful one.  All of the systems I need to get to, to
>>    	file TMS expenses, 
             ^^^

	Maybe one of the best reasons to kill the host OS!

RE: .24

>>    But it is also true of the technical NOTES I depend on for answers.
>>    More and more I see notes go unanswered...

	a *very* good reason to keep the host OS!

My .02 - and some gas on the flames to boot!
- norm

VMS

VMS is near it's 20 year anniversary. (Congratulations),
And someone says they need a VMS account for that garbage TMS expense 
program. We had expense's online and it worked great. Sorry but I don't 
want anybody talking about a great operating system because they 
neeed to do TMS(junk) expenses. I think we can truly say that there
will be no ALLIN1 accounts.

When is someone going to say VMS is a player as much as NT and
digital unix. 

Mike

	A T T E N T I O N    !!!!!

I am informed that the person listed in .0 (Marrie Perras) from the NSIS
operations is getting numerous calls as a result of this note and this
impacts her job. I appologize to Marrie for not having thought about this
and post a request like this one early enough. Marrie is only a messenger
and the rule is "Do not shoot the messenger".

My intent of this note was a general discussion and awareness of the future
of VMS accounts for VMS people and the possible side effects that would
cause to our performance to those of us who support VMS customers should we
have end up with no access to a VMS account of our own.

Again, note that Marrie is only a messenger. Take your concern to your
manager and let management handle it. This is exactly what I personally did
for my own concerns.

				Thanks

					George

    
>Everyone will be notified individually prior to an account being closed.  By
>now, specific issues which would prevent us from deleting accounts and fully
>migrating to Exchange should have been sent in writing to me or Dave
>Chisamore.  If not, please forward your concerns immediately.
             ------------------------------------------------
    
    	Maybe she shouldn't have said this, then.  8^)
    

    ... this decision made by the people that brought us Omega...
    
    BTW, at present about 1/3 of the Server revenue is VMS.  Our customers
    appear not to be phasing VMS out.
    
    

    
    Sigh ... hate to keep harping on this, but as previous noters have
    stated.. OpenVMS is doing well in tier 3 environments for the same
    reason that MVS and HPUX is doing well - availability, relaibility, 
    available skill sets in their organizations etc.
    
    Recent move toward JAVA is only going to help these tier 3 platforms 
    as each will be used as JAVA servers. OpenVMS has also been licensed
    for JAVA as well .. 64 bit java server in fully redundant cluster makes
    for a pretty good story ..
    
    Remember NT is a tier 1, 2 (desktop / dept server) and almost no
    Customers that I know of are seriously considering moving their
    bread-n-butter applications to NT. Pathworks, Novell, Banyan, MAC's
    etc are what is losing big time to NT, not serious must-be-up-all
    -the-time applications.
    
    Many Customers have started out with migration in mind, but as a recent
    large Customer locally did, they usually end up doing integration instead.
    
    Note - I like NT and most of my work these days involves NT, but I
    certainly would not state to a Customer that NT (and associated app's
    such as WINS, Exchange, DHCP) can be a replacement for mission critical
    applications. My credibility would be zero with serious data center
    managers who understand the issues.
    
    Can anyone here say they have not had problems with Exchange lately ?
    
    defense rests :-)
    
    Regards,
    
    / Kerry
    for 

>    Can anyone here say they have not had problems with Exchange lately ?

I can.

(I don't use it.)

    >>>
    Can anyone here say they have not had problems with Exchange lately ?
    I can.

    (I don't use it.)
    >>>
    
    mmmm... also reference 4961.99+ ..
    
    Regards,
    
    / Kerry
    

    There does seem to be a perception in some people's minds that VMS
    systems are only used for mail, Notes, and VTX.  However, the fact is
    that users on CCS systems are charged for both ALL-IN-1 and Exchange
    during the transition, so the businesses are generally requesting that
    the accounts be deleted.  So a lot of servers are being shut down.  The
    plan is to move the remaining accounts to a central location or
    locations.  If your business says you need an ALL-IN-1 account or VMS
    account, I believe that CCS would be happy to provide it.  There are,
    of course, many VMS systems that run applications that are not planned
    for migration.  I have not heard of Accounts Payable moving to NT. I
    believe the company could save a fortune by eliminating that function
    altogether.  In fact, I think that they spend most of the money.  ;-)
    
    The largest group in America's Call Center is for VMS.  They do
    pre-sales support, so somebody thinks there's money to be made.
    
    Somebody recently asked me what DQS was, trying to determine if it was
    important that we support people using it.  I had to answer that it was
    important for the sales reps in my humble view.  
    
    Ben

    
    	CS/IT here tried to move one of my [shared] accounts to an NT
    	server but had to move it back because it contained all of our
    	MAXCIM FIS reports for the business.
    
    	Although I've converted most of the ones I use regularly to
    	DATATRIEVE, the guy that works with me never learned it so he
    	has a bunch of them that run over the course of the week.
    

    
    Fwiw, I like Exchange and use it, but IMO, users can not be moved until 
    equivalent Allin1 functionality is provided under Exchange.
    
    In my case, that means having FAX and X.400 send/receive capabilities 
    - both of which I have access to under Allin1. Exchange has these
    capabilities (FAX - addon's, X.400 needs to be enabled), but as I
    understand, these features have not yet been implemented internally.
    
    (X.400 is required for govt dept's which for security reasons do
    not yet have internet access).
    
    So, I maintain 2 accounts.
    
    Regards,
    
    

    
    	Right now I have to pay for my RAS connection [don't have access
    	to a toll-free or local number], so I forward everything to Ex-
    	change during working hours and switch the forward to VMS for
    	non-working hours.
    
    	If they force me to disable VMSMAIL I'm going to have to whine
    	noticeably.
    

    Certainly there's tons of digital semiconductor design stuff
    that's done on VMS.
    

In my group, all our source files are managed with CMS, which runs on the
VAX (there is a PC Client that uses the basic libraries). Nearly all our
documentation is processed with DEC DOCUMENT - which only runs on VAX. 

Art 

All of the company's financials and manufacturing/order information is on
VMS-based systems.

				Steve

re: .46
    
>    	Right now I have to pay for my RAS connection [don't have access
>    	to a toll-free or local number], so I forward everything to Ex-
>    	change during working hours and switch the forward to VMS for
>    	non-working hours.
 
Do you have a local PPP number?  You don't need a RAS connection to get
to your Exchange server.
   
>    	If they force me to disable VMSMAIL I'm going to have to whine
>    	noticeably.
    
Nothing I've said here should be construed as trying to stop you
from whining. :-)

-Hal Laurent

    
    	What's a PPP number?
    
    	I don't think I have one.  If I do I don't know it.
    

re: .51

>    	What's a PPP number?
>    
>    	I don't think I have one.  If I do I don't know it.
    
Do you have any local number you can dial into?  If so, the odds are
fairly good that it can do PPP.  You can tell from the LAT prompt, but
I don't remember the details at the moment.

-Hal

    
    	I do have a local access number that I use for Hyperterm sessions.
    	It's a Milford [MA] number that I dial, and from there I can dial
    	a DTN to get to MRO.
    
    	Hmmm, you just gave me an idea.
    

    Has anyone had success with installing and using "Netnotes" to access
    Digital notes conferences??   I wouldn't feel so bad about loosing my
    VMS account if I could get this puppy working.  I have tried all 
    variations of set-up but can't connect to any notes files. 
    
    Bruce
     

I'm using it now. I am running a version that identifies itself as
"NetNotes Client for MS Win32 V1.0.9" on an NT V4.0 Workstation
system.  I use it routinely to access all conferences that I follow
that are available via TCP/IP. I have an (increasingly) lonely 
VAXstation that gets me to those conferences that only have DECnet
access.

I simplified things by not using a remote notebook. To me it seemed
pretty straightforward.

mark

I, too, am using Netnotes.  I also use a local notebook and TCP/IP only.  I just 
dropped the 1 or 2 conferences that were only reachable via DECnet.  Note that 
you can still use DECnet if you either a) install PATHWORKS 32 on your PC or 
b) elect to route through a friendly VMS node (a setup option).

    How does one know if a Conference is TCP/IP?? And is there a list??
    For instance, is HUMANE::CLASSIFIED_ADS reachable via TCP/IP?  This
    is the conference that gives me (Connect to HUMAME failed. Remote Node
    is Unknown) error message.
    
    
    
    

	Notes> DIR/CONF @node.site.dec.com

	example: DIR/CONF @axel.zko.dec.com

							mike

I too use NetNotes on Windows NT 4.0 Alpha, but I use TCP/IP only to our local 
OpenVMS system with my notebook on it, and let OpenVMS use DECnet to get to the 
conferences.

Why?

Because I don't know how to figure out which conferences have TCP/IP access. Of 
those that would, I don't know how to figure out their equivalent TCP/IP address 
from the DECnet name. NetNotes seems to only allow "direct access to everything" 
or "via remote notebook access to everything", but not a mixture, so I don't 
know how many conferences I wouldn't have access to. And if I'm elsewhere, I can 
log on to OpenVMS and use "classic" Notes: if my notebook was on my PC, I 
wouldn't be able to get to it.

PJDM

    Now if we could just get the NetNoters to stop typing at 80 columns and
    press <enter>, their notes might actually be readable...
    
    .mike.

I've used the TeamLinks client for more than two years quite 
happily.  I was only motivated to switch to NetNotes when V2.7 of 
TeamLinks forced authentication through a backbone MTS system.  
Since I was moving from MTS to Exchange, NetNotes serves my
needs without the need for external authentication through MTS.
NetNotes also provides an SMTP mail utility so I don't have to 
jump into TeamLinks to forward Notes.

I use TCP/IP to access my "remote notebook" on an old VAX system in 
the office for which I'm the system mangler.

I would hate to use the "local notebook" option since I read Notes 
from a Dunix box via an X display, my notebook system at customer 
sites, and a Windows NT V4.0 Server system at home.  The remote OVMS 
notebook keeps my seen/unseen map consistent.  If only I could 
keep my Usenet News tracking file straight as easily...

David

re .57: no there's no list of TCP/IP accessible notesfiles, although 
one may be in the works. When you access to a node, say, HUMANE 
through DECnet, you may access it through TCP/IP with 
humane.site.dec.com if the node in question is properly configured.

The most difficult part is to figure out the "site" part. One of the 
ways is VTX EASYNET, navigate down to "Display a Node" (that should 
be 3 then 2 then 6), fill in the form with protocol "D", Node Name 
"HUMANE", and here you go, its IP name is humane.mro.dec.com.

Note that not all Notes servers have TCP/IP, and not all that do run 
TCP/IP have their Notes server listening over TCP/IP, but HUMANE is 
one of the "good" ones.

re.60: when composing a note with Netnotes, make sure you select 
"Customize->Default Text Width" and your note will not be more than 
80 columns. Should be the default, yeah, I know...

Hope this helps

	Vincent, another NetNotes / TCP/IP user

I (and many other people) have raised this subject on 
EASYNET_CONFERENCES and there are plans to create a lisating by TPC 
addresses, but give them time.

    Use findnode DECnet Node Search Utility, available at many internal WWW
    sites

I've done some work modifying the programs that help generate EASYNOTES.LIS, but
am not finished.  Look for the TCP/IP access information to be added in the next
few weeks.

Paul

I too am using Netnotes to create this reply. So far I haven't missed a beat. 
Since I was being forced off of my VMS account, I used the remote notebook 
copy facility of Netnotes to copy my complete notebook context from my VMS 
system to my laptop. So far I've been able to access every conference I've 
tried, and my unseen pointers have been right where I left them in VMS.

My only complaint about Netnotes is that it doesn't display the note/reply 
number as part of the note headings.

    Just came back from DECUS/Germany. Overheard a conversation between a
    DECie and a (loyal VMS-) customer. The DECie mentioned that DIGITAL is
    going EXCHANGE. Customer response was: "Oh really! DEC is abandoning
    VMS. Maybe we should rethink our companies IT strategy."
    
    Guenther

    Ref:  back a few...
    
    How does one get NetNotes?  I've been using the web notes interface and
    it really sucks!
    
    Ws

The Netnotes kits and instructions is at:
	http://www-ccs.wro.dec.com/NT.Kits/
Good luck
Bruce May

    
    	"Object not found"
    

    
    	But there is one here:
    
    ftp://ftp-ccs.cxo.dec.com/Kits/NetNotes/Version1.0.9/
    

  How do you get a license key?

  	mikeP

    
    	Yeah, I saw that.
    
    	I don't know ... can you make one up?
    

    I found a corporate license key at the following:
    
    http://www-ccs.wro.dec.com/NT/kits/Unsupported/NetNotes/

    
    	I'm sort of missing the point of this whole NetNotes thing, I
    	guess.
    
    	I figured it was an alternative to NOTES on VMS, so that those
    	who lose VMS accounts can still access active NOTES conferences.
    	But the setup is asking for my VMS username and location of VMS
    	.NOTE file.  How would I be able to populate these fields if I
    	didn't have a VMS account?  And since I DO have a VMS account,
    	what's the purpose of changing over to NetNotes?
    

    You don't need a VMS account.

Even if you do have a VMS account, the NetNotes GUI is far better than the 
DECwindows GUI (though I still tend to use the character cell NGUI under VMS). 
The biggest disadvantage of NetNotes is the absence of markers.

If you use NetNotes solo on your PC, you either need DECnet running on your PC 
or you only have access to conferences on nodes accessible using TCP/IP. The 
exception to this is if you have access to a VMS machine with both DECnet 
and UCX, with Notes installed (you don't have to have an account on it...) that 
you can use as a Route Through node. (That node name will show up on all notes 
you write, as it does on this one.)

Actually, you don't have to route everything through VMS/DECnet node.  I have 
only TCP/IP running on dlj and use TCP/IP for all the conferences that I 
follow.  There is one conference, however, that is DECnet only.  My solution is 
to define the path to the conferences as "vmsnode.xxx.dec.com" which is the 
TCP/IP address of a VMS node with DECnet, UCX, and a TCP/IP notes 'object' and 
set the conference filenames as "VMSZOO::Flying".

That way, I use direct TCP/IP connections to all conferences except the one 
that requires a route-through from the VMS system.

    
    	What are the MRO people using for a router node?
    
    	I can't seem to get BUSY [cluster] or SCUBA/SEAVU/FINS to work.
    

Well, I have a router now [MRPTH1] and am up and running, thanks to 
Stephen.

But what I can't do is a SET MOD after adding what I believe to be my 
current network address ... MRPTH1.MRO.DEC.COM::SLAB

Is this what it should look like?

MRPTH1::BUSY.MRO.DEC.COM::SLAB doesn't work either.

try

mrpth1::16.121.160.239::slab

Let me summarize the appropriate issues regarding .0 as stated in some of the 
replies.

-  VMS accounts are not "going away".  The memo that was received specifically 
addressed the removal of ALL-IN-1/VMS accounts.  These systems are production 
mail systems, supported by CCS and billed to the customers.  They are chartered 
for MAIL/office tools use (not development, not support).

- Systems (VMS or otherwise) required to support a specific business 
requirement should be provided by the business unit.

-  The removal of the accounts is being driven by the Business units.  THEY 
are deciding to go to Exchange, and THEY are don't want to pay for two accounts.
In addition, each BU has a migration strategy (communicated or not) that 
details how current functions of ALL-IN-1 (i.e. VTX, NOTES) are addressed 
in the new environment.

-  The current ALL-IN-1 systems are being consolidated (not eliminated) to 
reduce cost and support requirements.  Some level of ALL-IN-1/VMS access (in 
central locations) will be maintained to support those BU's/user's that can't 
or don't want to use Exchange.

-  VMS site servers/Pathworks servers are being displaced by NT Office 
services for the purposes of file shares (at basically an equivalent charge).  
VMS level access that these systems were used for (and were paid for) should 
be relocated to one of the central ALL-IN-1/VMS/Timesharing systems.  

- Application systems (AQS, FOCUS, etc.) are completely independant of the 
ALL-IN-1 consolidation plans, and will probably be on VMS (on the same 
systems) until some techonology shift occurs specific to that application.

- YOU DON'T HAVE TO HAVE YOUR OWN VMS ACCOUNT TO USE TMS!!!!!!!!!!!!!  
Their is a (documented) generic account, called TMS_USER available on a 
variety of systems (including the ALL-IN-1 and site servers of today and  
the future).

-  Lastly, it is true that the faxing/X.400 capability in ALL-IN-1 is not 
currently available in Exchange, but it an active project and will be 
available SOON.


My suggestion for the future is when a memo like this is received, and 
you're reaction is that it is going to impact your ability to do your job,  
respond to the memo as indicated and/or escalate it through your management 
or business unit and get a reality check.

>-  VMS site servers/Pathworks servers are being displaced by NT Office 
>services for the purposes of file shares (at basically an equivalent charge).  

An equivalent charge for a non-equivalent service?

VMS provides 24 x 365 service to its shares.  You can upgrade members of
the VMS cluster without major disruptions in service to the users of the
VMS-served shares.

I just received a message explaining that certain NT-served shares would be
unavailable for an entire day during an upgrade.

VMS is the top-tier of the three-tier client-server technology we are trying
to sell to customers; we should be using it ourselves to provide our own
users with 24 x 365 access to their shares.

/john

    >>VMS provides 24 x 365 service to its shares.
    
    	Just a nit:  Maybe VMS does, but the site servers do not.  While
    they are setup to be highly reliable the LOS is not 24x365.
    
    	Leo

RE: a few back

I did try that but it didn't work.

How will we get fiscal calendars with highlighted holidays?!

Pete has a way of asking the really tough questions, eh?

So far, there are only two things I don't like about NetNotes:

1)  No differentiation between the last reply number in the title 
bar in a note and all of the ones before it, so it's not apparent 
that you haven't reached the end of the note unless you make it a 
point to look.  VMS puts a border around the last reply.

2)  Lack of ease in adding members/moderators [if even possible].

And how do I configure the SMTP address/domain for the mail utility?

    File ... Mail 
    
    I believe you set it up the first time you try to use it.
    
    I don't think there's any option for a default domain (to be
    appended to a name as in pbeck -> pbeck@zk3.dec.com).

I'd like to suggest that those using Netnotes make sure they add a valid
e-mail address to the text of their message, in case someone wants to send 
mail to the author.

				Steve

Yeah, but then the field is too darned long.

Re .89:

> 1)  No differentiation between the last reply number in the title 
> bar in a note and all of the ones before it

My title bar when reading your note says "89 of 93". It's pretty easy to figure 
out that yours isn't the last note.

> 2)  Lack of ease in adding members/moderators [if even possible].

Look at the Conference -> Security menu. There are Add Member, Modify Member, 
Delete Member options. Can it get any easier? (I can't say if making a member a 
moderator is easy: someone who is a moderator might want to have a look.)

PJDM

>> 1)  No differentiation between the last reply number in the title 
>> bar in a note and all of the ones before it
> 
> My title bar when reading your note says "89 of 93". It's pretty easy to 
figure 
> out that yours isn't the last note.

Yabut, you have to look directly at it... with character cell Notes on VMS, the 
n of m display changes to reverse colors when the last reply is displayed; if 
you get used to it, you can catch it out of the corner of your eye, almost 
subliminally. Not a make-or-break feature, but a distinct differentiator 
nonetheless.

RE: .94

What Paul said ... it's not obvious that a reply is/isn't the last one.

And adding a member isn't the hard part ... what IS the hard part is knowing how to 
add someone's NetNotes address as one with moderator privileges.

Hmm, I never noticed it did that until you pointed it out.

As you say, not a make-or-break feature.

PJDM