Conference 7.286::digital

This is a very common practice. I know that when I worked as a temporary
employee (Consolidated Edison of NY) I never got paid for public holidays.
I don't know of any company that pays temporary people for public holidays.

I can understand why temporary employees would want that benifit but, frankly,
I don't see why it would make sense TO DEC to do it. It is not needed to
make us competitive with other users of temporary employees. Part of the
logic behind using temps is to save money anyway.

Alfred

When I was a temporary employee for the government (NASA; also civilian 
personnel at Edwards AFB) I got paid for holidays.  When I worked at MIT
in a temporary position I got paid for holidays (iff I worked all the other
days in that week).

[And anyway, being competitive as an employer of temporary employees isn't 
limited to only offering the same things as most others do, it could involve 
offering *more*.]

When I've worked as a temporary employee or had family work as temporary
employees at various places, the object was not to save money, the object
was to hire someone to do a necessary job despite a hiring freeze for permanent
employees--I knew folks who had been temps for years in the same job.
Admittedly these places were not DEC.  And "necessary" means the people 
who hired the temp knew they needed someone to do the job, but funding
problems or higher level management blindness to the actual operation of
the office wouldn't allow a permanent position to be created and filled.

I have heard that temporary and contract employees are to be phased out.
Would anyone like to comment on this "rumour"?

Also, would someone explain to me the difference between temporary and
contract employees?     (I'm just an ignorant foreigner :-)).    Also,
do temps get more money than permanent employees to compensate for their
lack of comparable benefits?

  re .3

  We are currently trying to reduce spending.  That's why consultants will
  not be hired, and current consulting contracts will not be renewed.
  Exceptions will always be made with sufficient justification.

  Consultants work under contract to us, and are considered employees for
  various purposes, for example, their usage of network accounts.  (Non-
  employees are not supposed to have network accounts.)  I'm not sure what
  is the definition of a temporary employee.

--Simon

Re: .4

Simon, a "temporary" Employee is usually the term used for a DEC "TAG",
a DEC Employee who is hired on a "6-month", renewable contract with 
DEC, but who works WITHOUT any DEC benefits (except DCU, pension, and 
unemployment insurance).

TAG's are issued DEC Badges, work for the Temporary Personnel Group, 
and are paid (on the same pay scale/job code) as a permanent DEC 
Employee. Before a manager hires an external agency temporary 
(contract) person,  they should try to get a DEC TAG. DEC TAG's are
generally familiar with the DEC way of doing business, trained on DEC
equipment, and typically are cheaper than external personnel ($/hr X
130% or so for externals, I am not sure what the Internal cc charges for
personnel, but since they also hire the contract personnel, the 
additional charge may be the same for both categories). 

The Maynard Area TAG program consists strictly of clerical/secretarial 
personnel. Programmers and manufacturing personnel are hired through 
outside agencies (by the same personnel group who administers the TAG 
program). Many TAG's are trying to land permanent jobs at DEC, and the 
vast majority are related to or good friends of a DEC Employee. Some 
TAG's are mothers who take summers and school vacations off, while 
earning a decent income the rest of the year.

I hope this explains the term. My wife has been a DEC TAG for almost 
two years and is still looking to go permanent.

   re .4:
   
   I would guess that summer (college) hires, in the days when
   we used to have summer hires, would have been considered to
   be temporary employees.
   
   --Don

I am a TAG who works for ZK OPERATIONS.  Not all TAG contracts are 6 month.
I was told I wouldn't be needed past the end of August and started in the
middle of May. (Anyone out there need a TAG for Sept and Oct?  Will do most
anything).  This is my second summer.  I am a college student.
Chad

Re: .5
Are you saying that although contractors do not get benefits they 
have access to the Digital Credit Union and can receive pension 
and unemployment benefits?  That's a new one on me.

  There are consultants, and there are temporary employees.  Both work under
  contracts.  Are partial benefits available to both kinds of contractors?
  I can sort of see temporary employees getting partial benefits, but for
  consultants who are self-employed or are employees of other firms to get
  such benefits would be surprising, at least to me.

--Simon

RE: .8 & .9

Sorry if I muddied the water instead of clarified it!

DEC TAG's are considered DEC Employees for those things which are 
mandated by law (such as unemployment compensation and perhaps {?} 
pension benefits), plus certain other benefits which DEC sees fit to 
allow them (e.g. yes they are eligible for DCU membership, EPP, and 
stock purchase plan, turkeys, Canobie Lake, etc.). When it comes to 
hiring a DEC TAG as a Permanent Full-Time DEC Employee, they fall 
somewhere between an "off-the-street" applicant and a "Permanent DEC 
Employee".

EXTERNAL CONTRACT personnel (temporary personnel hired through an 
external agency, or self-employed) are NOT eligible for ANY DEC 
benefits, as they are NOT (in any way, shape, or form) employed by DEC. 
Their Employer (agency/contract house) MUST pay into the State 
Unemployment fund. I do not know about pension funds through their 
agency/contract houses. Self-employed people are NEVER eligible for 
unemployment benefits, since they can never be "laid off" (as 
governments define the term).

Therefore, when DEC cancels all its external contract personnel's 
contracts, it is NOT a DEC lay-off (since they were never DEC 
Employees). However, if any DEC TAG's are terminated, then it IS a DEC 
lay-off, since their paychecks bear the DEC logo!

I hope this helps clear up any confusion between the two groups.

In re .6:

>    I would guess that summer (college) hires, in the days when
>    we used to have summer hires, would have been considered to
>    be temporary employees.

I was a coop (cooperative work/study) student working summers for Digital
before I was hired full-time.  As a coop student, I was a Wage Class 4
employee, with full benefits.  When I went back to school, and worked
part-time (10-15 hours per week), I was a temporary employee, Wage Class 2,
with no benefits.

By the way, we still have summer hires.  Compared to consultants, they are
comparatively inexpensive.  There are also many intangible benefits in our
continuing to hire them, despite the current downturn in our business.

					-- Roger

RE: .10

Unfortunately, TAGS do not receive things such as Stock Purchase plan etc.
The contract I signed in '84 (I didn't sign one this summer) stated that
the employment was one of mutual benefits to both DEC and the TAG and
that they had no benefits as perm. employees do.  I do receive EPP stuff
in the mail but I doubt they would let me order from it.  I never have had
the benefit of the Stock Purchase plan and I doubt things like Canobie and
the Turkeys would be available if I were to still be here when they came
around.
Chad

Are there any Personnel people reading this who can state the facts when
it comes to TAGs.  I would really like to *know* instead of what I remember
from the contract and from what you *hear* in different places.

RE: .12

First of all, most folks in personnel hardly use their terminals (if
they have them) for anything but MAIL. It would be extremely rare for a 
personnel person to use NOTES. On the same basis, the MYO (Maynard 
Area) TAG office has refused to document any of the new 
policies/changes in policy, therefore, they would not be willing to 
contribute anything to this discussion.

I have sat down personally with Gail Martis, who heads up the MYO TAG 
office and discussed some of the new policies with her. I have a vested 
interest, since my wife is a TAG and we are looking to build a house in 
the MYO area. If my wife is laid-off when we look for a mortgage, 
forget it, there is no way that we will qualify! [Also, Gail is 
upstairs from me and my wife works at VRO which is ~14 miles from here.]

FACTS:

In the two years that my wife has been a TAG, she has received a coupon 
for the turkey each Xmas, and yes they gave her the bird. :-)

Also, she has received tickets to Canobie Lake each year.

She received the enrollment package for the DEC Stock Purchase plan 
after being a DEC TAG for 6+ months. Money is taken out of each 
paycheck and she IS a shareholder in the plan.

In order to have her paycheck automatically deposited to our joint DCU 
account, she HAD to (they told us that it was some federal law) open an
account under HER badge number. 

We do receive EPP stuff in the mail, but have not bought anything. I 
spoke with George Girard (Mgr of EPP) about eligibility and was advised 
that TAG's and Coops are indeed eligible. Basically, if the person 
shows up in ELF as a US-based Employee, they are eligible (from our 
discussion, George implied that he uses the same underlying database 
that ELF is generated from).

End of FACTS:

Due to some of the policy changes that have occurred in the DEC (MYO) 
TAG program, it appears that the Stock Purchase plan may become a "has 
been" for DEC TAG's. They are requiring each TAG to sign a termination 
agreement, turn in their badge and leave for a minimum of 4 weeks (as 
part of the 12 weeks/year that they are requiring each TAG to take 
off). If (as I suspect, but have not tried to confirm yet) this is 
treated as a discontinuity of employment, and the TAG must re-sign up 
for Stock Purchase plan all over again, after another 6 month's 
employment, they will again be out on the next year's 4 week+ lay-off 
before the purchase date. Ergo, they will never again (until another 
policy change) be eligible for the Stock Purchase plan. [I was told by 
one of the affected TAG's that after you "terminate" for 4 weeks, all 
money set aside to buy stock is returned to you (without interest!).]

ok folks -- guess i have to confess outright.  some personnel types DO use
terminals.  we even read NOTES.  but....i personally have refrained from 
participating in NOTES because i realize some people might not expect 
'personnel types' to be in here. 

with regard to .13:

While I work in the FIELD and thus have more limited exposure to TAGs (I think
the current term is TE, Temporary Employee..) I do know they do not receive
benefits such as medical/dental/life ins.  however, they may join DCU and the
stock purchase program.  The glitch with stock is that you must participate all\6 months.  per SEC compliance.  you MUST be an active employee on the date of
purchase.  

fyi, I am a PA (also known as a PSA elsewhere) in Santa Clara, California. 

/rene

Rene,

Please do participate in this discussion! It is encouraging to hear that
not all the personnel people ignore our electronic resources. It 
appears that those in the Maynard area do not utilize the system to 
everyone's benefit.

The true purpose of this Notesfile is for people to be able to ask 
questions or raise issues and for those who know the answers to 
respond. Unfortunately, it just hasn't been working out that way, 
however you are more than welcome to change that.

This entire topic happens to be a "hot spot" for me for two reasons:

	- The DEC temps were promised a permanent position (admittedly 
	  on an experimental basis), however the experiment was 
	  terminated with NO notice or explanation within 2 months of
	  start-up (and only ~5 people were in the program at that
	  time). They refused to discuss the reasons, hold a meeting
	  about the change in policy, or even document it.

	- Now there is a total turn-about in policy and once more they 
	  refuse to document it. There have been allegations (I have no 
	  knowledge that they are true) that they have threatened those
	  affected that if they try to collect unemployment, they will
	  never work as a DEC TAG again. If this is true, DEC could be
	  in a mess of legal trouble. I certainly hope that it is false.

All that I know for certain is that there are some things going on in 
this program which definitely don't appear to be the "DEC way" of doing
things. I don't think it is too much to ask for the DEC TAG management 
to document any policies and subsequent changes, so that everyone 
affected knows exactly where they stand.

ADDENDUM/CORRECTION TO .14 (line noise strikes again)

re:  stock purchase -- you must be a participant all 6 months of the period
and thus must be on active status on the purchase date, per our plan
as approved by the SEC. 

re .15

thank you for the welcome.  believe me, it took alot to overcome the hesitations
i am sorry tp hear that things may not [appear] to be done "the DEC way". 
here in the field the use of a TE/TAG is rare and not as formal a program, 
i.e. depending on funding and the nature of the assignment, both parties
should have the expectation that the assignment will end with a reasonable
period of notice, thus enabling the TE to identify any 'real jobs' which
might be open to them.  

on the flip side, as you all are probably aware, no other geography others
(correct that - offers) quite the same opportunities as Mass/NH just 
because the numbers of employees/organizations/opportunities are
astronomically higher than out in the field.  still, i should hope
that DEC management/staff/personnel still operates under the same
expecation everywhere to do the right thing.  and if not, that the
issue WILL be elevated.  the one part that might be addressed is that
the expectations should not be misleading.  that if business needs change 
the expectation will be that it be handled in a civilized manner and 
with as much information as possible in a timely manner.  

please also realize it is very hard to nail down the entire story and 
even those right in the middle of a situation may not have all the pieces.

'rene

  From the Personnel Policies and Procedures, section 2.02:

  "Temporary assignments should not exceed six months.  In those rare
  instances when a temporary assignment exceeds six months, supervisors
  should reaffirm the temporary nature of the assignment with the employee
  and establish a definite ending date for the assignment.

  "... Temporary employees are not entitled to participate in employee
  benefit plans with the exception of the pension and stock purchase plans.

  "Criteria - Employees are considered temporary when they meet any one or
  more of the following criteria:

   o  Does not work a fixed and continuous schedule.

   o  Does not work during certain periods of the year, such as school
      vacations and/or summers.

   o  Only works a prearranged period of time, such as during school vacations
      and/or summers.

RE: -.1

Thanks, that clears up a little bit now.  I was told that the TAG program
at ZK was on hold (think that was how it was put).  Does anybody know
what DEC is doing company-wide now (TAGs) with its new austerity measures.

Chad

Ahh Gi'day...

    Don't take those benefits for granted. In Aussie, I work with about 500
    people  within  200 yards of each other. We have no canteen, no DCU, no
    Stock  option  plan, Superannuation is not available till 25 years old,
    then  it's  compulsory,  a  VERY  informal employee purchase plan (Even
    though  I'm  an "old hand", I wouldn't know who to contact, or what the
    discounts were)

	    - Dennis.

What is Supperannuation?
    John Sauter

  superannuated, adj. 1. Retired or discharged because of age or infirmity.
                      2. Obsolete; antiquated.

  [from the Latin, meaning "to be too old"]

  re .20 [re .19]

  I guess from context that "Superannuation" refers to participation in
  the retirement plan.

Ahh Gi'day...

			       Correctooo...

			       {dennis{{{ --

    
    I'm sitting at home and don't have a DEC directory or holiday calendar
    handy - but I do have the question:
    
    Do we have Dr. Martin Luther King Jr's birthday off (3rd Monday
    in Jan), or is it one of those government-only type holidays?
    
    "jackin' the house", Bob

    There are no DEC-approved holidays coming up until Easter in April.
    If your religious/moral beliefs are such that Martin Luthor King Day is
    like any other approved holiday to you, you could probably take
    it off as your personal holiday, or a vacation day (my opinion only).
    
    New Years to Easter is always a long stretch.
    
    
    /al

    Easter is not a DEC holiday... with the exception of certain
    site-specific holidays, the next general DEC holiday in the
    U.S. is Memorial Day.
    
    grins,
    Marge

                For those lucky enough to work in the Boston plant,
        Monday the 19th is a holiday. If things go as I remember the
        calendar, those of us in the rest of eastern Mass will get the
        20th of April (don't quote me on the date, check it somewhere!)
        which is Patriot's Day around here.
                
                /s/     Bob

These are the DEC-U.S. Holidays.  There are always exactly ten of them.

New Years Day           Memorial Day          Independence Day      Labor Day
Thanksgiving Thursday   Thanksgiving Friday   Christmas Day

Plus one day called "Company Holiday" which is set nationwide, usually next to
Christmas Day, New Years Day, or 4 July to create a long weekend.

Plus the "Personal Holiday" -- a day you take any day you want.

Finally, there is the "Location Choice" Holiday.  Some locations will choose to
make it an employee choice day, like the Personal Holiday, some will set it to
be Martin Luther King's Birthday or Patriot's Day or some other local holiday.

/john

    So I take it the Company Holiday in '87 was January second?
    
    thanks,
    Marge
    

    re: .29
    
    Yep.

    And the 1986 company holiday was Dec 26.
    
    Burns
    

I was going to speculate on what it might be in '88, but it's not so easy.

1 Jan is a Friday
4 Jul is a Monday
25 Dec is Sunday, so the Monday becomes the holiday.

Since the company was not in business in any other leap year when 1 Jan was a
Friday, I don't have a clue.

/john

    For a number of the DC offices, Monday is the site holiday. Since
    most of our customers will be shut down anyway, it makes sense.
    Plus due to the large black population here, it is good taste to
    observe King's Birthday. (Why did it take the govt to get around
    to it?)
    
    NOW, for something completely different. I speak or our wonderful
    "Personal Holiday". I went to KY to see my parents over the holidays
    and told my not-so-trusty secretary to burn my personal day while
    I was gone. I got my stub some time later (I work off-site) and
    low and behold, 3 Vacation days, no personal holiday. Therefore,
    my personal day for the year was dusted. I complained to both the
    secretary and Personnel and the party line was "too bad". That
    REALLY gripes my cookies. Well, it's academic now. It looks like
    this will only make a difference in the size of my severance check.
    (This is not the only problem that I've had lately). I was just
    suprised at the mindless reaction that I encountered. The logic
    was "It's now 1987. Payroll will not change lasts years stuff".
    What, exactly, is so magical about crediting someone with 8 hours
    of vacation time? I mean, there's going by the book and there's
    the theatre of the absurd.
   
    Also, having maxed out on my vacation time, my last secretary 
    (another serious winner) billed my vacation time a month after
    I took the vacation. Therefore, the vacation time to be accrued
    during the period also got tossed. Personnel did agree to credit
    that one. I told her "I'll be on Vacation in Canada for the next
    2 weeks". It seems like she would have billed it then. Oh well,
    another major DEC problem. They almost never fire anyone. So DEC
    tends to collect deadwood (a.k.a. the infamous hall-walkers of
    Landover).
    
    Flame off. Flame out. Bye.
    
    Jim

    On the other side of the coin, I tried to use the '87 
    personal day on week/ending 1/3/87 and our secretary 
    caught it as illegal... I would have been docked.
    
    :^)
    Marge
    

Re: .33 (Losing Personal Holiday and Vacation)

Not to be a hardass, but why didn't you simply fill out your job tickets 
and vacation cards in advance and give them to the secretary before you 
left?  In my experience here, secretaries are far too busy with their 
own work to be babysitting anyone (even the managers) by filling out
timecards other than their own.

Bob

    re .33
    
    Not sure if I completely understand what you said.
    
    If you are saying that a personal day wasn't taken when it should
    have been, that has happened here several times, and a simple letter
    to your payroll group by your manager should take care of the problem.
                                                    
    We have had various problems of vacation days used in place of PH
    and visa versa. Even when it happened during a the New Year switch
    a letter to payroll always corrected the error.
    
    
    By the way it happened to me and two of my people last New Years

There's a simple solution, if you have a reasonable manager.

Next time you take vacation, take one more day than what you fill out on
the time cards.

BTW, Grins, this year it would have been legit to take the personal holiday
during week ending 3-Jan-87 since both the 1st and 2nd were holidays anyway.
Your secretary was apparently remembering last year's rule, where it had to
be taken by the previous week, since there were actual work days in 87 in
the week.  Each year is different.

/john

I started for DEC 11 years ago the week of Thanksgiving.  We got 2 days 
for Thanksgiving, 3 days for X-mas and 2 more for New Years for a total
of 7 days off in around 5 weeks!  I haven't seen anything close to that 
since then.  what haopened?

-mark

>We got 2 days for Thanksgiving, 3 days for X-mas and 2 more for New Years
>for a total of 7 days off in around 5 weeks!  I haven't seen anything close
>to that since then.  what haopened?

This year was very close to that, just one day less.

If I remember correctly, that was the year they gave us an extra day off
and said that it was a one-time bonus day.

/john

Re .35 & .38:

   Both notes tend to imply that I'm either a) lazy or b) stupid. I think that
I fall more under c) uninformed. I am a wage class 4 kind of guy and as a
general rule don't fill out time cards at all. In the 2 and a half years that
I've been at DEC I think I have filled out 1 and signed a few. The usage or
place of the timecard is somewhat vague and foreign to me. My first secretary
was excellent and always did that kind of thing for me. I assumed that was how
things were done. Considering I have spent less than 1% of my time in the
office spending my time at customer sites, (Yes, some of us do spend our time
generating revenue not collecting overhead.) how can you fill out time cards
in advance if you don't know that time cards are due at all. I usually fill
in CLARS instead for my time reporting. I guess that ingorance of the law is
no excuse as they say, but the whole thing has been pretty rude.
    
   Also, the line about "you don't know how to take vacation?", seeing
that I'd maxed out on vacation time tells you how often I've taken it.

Re .38:

   You suggest having personnel send a letter to payroll. A personnel staff
member was the one of the folks that said "too bad". This was the same person
who said she could fix the problem of the late time card submission. I just
thought it weird that two situations that look pretty similar to me could
evoke such different reactions from the establishment. Maybe she thought I
was just trying to pull a fast one and really had forgotten to ask that the
personal day be burnt and I was just trying to save on vacation.

Jim

    Regarding time cards:
    
    As explained to me, we're all responsible (including Wage Class
    4) for filling out our time when we:
    
    Take vacation
    Take a personal day
    Are out sick
    
    Usually the routine is to fill out the card 1 (or is that 2 ?) weeks
    before you anticipate taking time off (naturally this doesn't apply
    to sick time !) And if you want advance holiday pay, you also need
    to fill out timecards.  You can ask your secretary when she/he needs
    to have your timecard and you also get the timecards from your
    secretary.
    
    Hope this helps !
    
    Joan G.
    
    Since you need to sign the time card (as does your manager), I can
    see why a secretary might not fill the card out for you.  But, then
    again, I guess some do.

We're not talking about timecards, anyway, in the case of WC 4 employees.

These are vacation cards.

You might point out to payroll that unless they can find a vacation card
with your signature on it for the three days of vacation you supposedly
took, that you want all three days back!

But I still think that the best way to handle it is to tell your manager
that it's his problem and that an easy way to handle it would be to forget
a day of vacation next time you're gone.

/john

    Good idea. I don't think I've done the timecard for the week with
    the personal holiday on it. I just told the sect'y I was taking
    off, but I don't remember signing anything. I did sign the ones
    that were late.
    
    As far as forgetting a vacation day next time I'm gone, there is
    a problem. The next time I'm gone, I'm GONE. AMF. The resume is
    on the streets and I have talked to personnel, but I don't think
    I'm really interested looking within the company anymore. As my
    first note stated, this deals with the size of the severance check.
    I'm just too disillusioned to stay. Yes, I'll miss the E-net and
    a large number of my net friends, but that is just not enough
    to offset the ill feelings in other areas.
    
    Thanks for the ideas. I think I'll attack it with "Show me the
    signature".
    
    Jim
    

    Personally I think that having people fill out there own time 
    cards is a totally stupid idea. It's a managers responsibility
    to know what their people are doing and to make sure they get
    the compensation they are entitled to.
    
    Here we make the process more inefficient by making wage class 4
    people do their vacation cards. Now tell me a person who fills
    out 1 or two of these stupid things in a year (or less) can do
    it faster and more efficiently then a secretary who does them
    weekly. And the secretaries time cost less too! Sure there are
    overworked secretaries but I've been in a groups where the secretaries
    spend more time finding things to keep busy then actually being
    busy.

    The manager I worked for in the last company had an interesting
    answer. He was told that all his people had to fill out time
    sheets weekly. Every quarter he mailed us (his 20 some odd reports
    worked in 5 different states) a quarters worth of time sheets. We
    signed them and mailed them back. Every week his secretary would
    fill them in based on our weekly reports and submit them. This
    never seemed to be a burden to her.
    
    		Alfred

    I agree with .-1 and .-2. Since WC 4 people don't as a rule
    do timecards why the differnce? I almost never go to my office
    since it is about an hour from my home (up to 3 hours on bad
    days). But then it's DEC's car and gas. If they want to pay me
    to drive over and back, it's their waste.

    Jim

re 42. WC 4 people do not fill out cards for sick time. If a 
unsuspecting WC 4 person were to send in a card for sick time
and it was not caught by the group secretary or manager, then
payroll would keypunch in x hours of sick time, the payroll
computer would do exactly as it was programed to do, subtract
x hours from that employees sick time account, and pay him 
accordingly. Since WC 4 employees do not have sick time allocations,
thier sick time account would read 0, and they would loose a days
pay. I have seen too many new people do this. I wish they would
reprogram the payroll system to check wage class.
No, I have never done it myself.
Bill

    .48 is right about what happens when a WC4 person puts in a time
    card for sick days.  I never tried this one (thank goodness!), but
    a friend who works in MRO did this once.  He had the flu for four
    days, and being a good do-bee, filled out the card.  Now, he has
    his mortgage through the DCU (or did then; I think he may have
    refinanced since).  Since the wondrous payroll system docked him
    four days pay, there wasn't enough left to withhold the mortgage
    payment from.  This screwed up the DCU!
    
    Needless to say, once he recuperated from his flu, and unsnarled
    this mess, he told all of us not to ever do this!
    
    The obvious solution seems to me that the payroll system ought to
    just ignore cards for sick days from WC4 people; the current mess
    you get into (unless they've fixed this in the last couple of years;
    I haven't worked in MRO for a year and a half, so this happened
    at least that long ago) seems pretty easy to avoid.  A SMOP!

    re .41 (and preceding and subsequent entries on the same topic):
    
.41>Both notes <.35 & .38> tend to imply that I'm either a) lazy or b) stupid. 

    Actually, my impression was more of an attitude problem.  Your entries
    here seem more to gripe than to try to resolve the problem of
    vacation/holiday time allotment - or at least the repeated declarations
    of intent to hit the street give that impression.  So go, I for
    one have much better things to do than to waste time and network
    bandwidth on pure griping.  (I suggest you send resumes to Wang,
    HoneyBull, and Unisys, maybe you'll be happier with a job that may
    not last long enough to give you a chance to take vacation.)
    
    On the other hand, if you are just blowing off steam and really want to
    fix the problem, follow the advice already given - go talk to your
    management, arrange to take an extra day off sometime without
    submitting the vacation card for it. From what's been said before it
    looks to me that this is a simple paperwork screwup, why blow it out of
    proportion and quit over it? I routinely notify our group secretary if
    I'll be working weekends that I'm also taking a day or two off sometime
    to balance it out - sometimes I'll take the time first then make it up
    over the next week or two or submit a card if necessary to square
    accounts.  Why is this such a problem for you?  I doubt that it's a
    problem for your organization, if it is it's the first part of the
    company that I've seen have trouble with it in my 7-plus years as an
    employee... 
    

    Re .50:
    
>   So go, I for
>   one have much better things to do than to waste time and network
>   bandwidth on pure griping.  (I suggest you send resumes to Wang,
>   HoneyBull, and Unisys, maybe you'll be happier with a job that may
>   not last long enough to give you a chance to take vacation.)
    
    With your great wealth of human compassion, perhaps you should
    fill in with the Employee Assistance program. On the other hand,
    you could be one of the insulated employees who resents hearing
    the possibility that DEC is anything less than perfect.
    
>   From what's been said before it
>   looks to me that this is a simple paperwork screwup, why blow it out of
>   proportion and quit over it? 
    
    I'm not considering leaving DEC over this. If you re-read the notes
    you will see that there are circumstances bseides this one case.
    The vacation thing is more like salt in an open wound. You tend
    (once again) to imply that if I'm dissatified (i.e. not a pollyanna)
    that the wieght of blame falls on me ("attitude problem"). Have
    you ever spent time in the field? If you are not around the office,
    it's sometimes difficult to figure out how things exactly work.
    I thought I was doing the right thing by going to personnel to see
    if I could get it cleraed up (they are the payroll folks, right?)
    I was shocked at the "too bad" attitude that they presented. On
    the phone they said they could clear up the time-card delay problem
    so I assumed that could handle the other with no big problem. I'm
    used to my secretary being surly, I think her bed only has one side
    to get out of, the wrong one. (I really miss my first secretary.
    She was not only competant, she actually cared).
    
>   sometimes I'll take the time first then make it up
>   over the next week or two or submit a card if necessary to square
>   accounts.  Why is this such a problem for you?  I doubt that it's a
>   problem for your organization, if it is it's the first part of the
>   company that I've seen have trouble with it in my 7-plus years as an
>   employee... 
    
    It seems that you don't work in the field. How do you "make up"
    time when you have to fit into the customer's hours? Can't do it
    on weekend, since we aren't yet cleared to be left unescorted. Taking
    time off means loss of revenue for the unit. The UM once asked to
    unit to forecast their sick days for the quarter. Is this totally
    Outer Limits or what?


>   On the other hand, if you are just blowing off steam and really want to
>   fix the problem, follow the advice already given - go talk to your
>   management.
    
    Well, today I did. I pre-resigned. I told them that the resume is
    out and if DEC wants me to stick around it's time to change things.
    The problem I've run into has been:
    
    Me: excuse me (problem)	  Mgr: I'll talk to you.  (talk never occurs)
    Me: Excuse me (same problem)  Mgr: I'll talk to you.  (talk never occurs)
    Me: EXCUSE ME (same problem)  Mgr: I'll talk to you.  (talk never occurs)
    Me: (Take 2X4 - hit manager between the eyes - go to personnel)
        READ MY LIPS              Mgr: Oh, is there a problem?
    
    This has built over a several month period in which I've been in
    two very ugly customer situations. I'm crawling the walls and getting
    no support from the Big Guy. Unfortunately, this is not the first
    manager that I've been through this with. It comes across that the
    management is more concerned with check from the customer than the
    well-being of their employees. (Not the party line, I'm told). So,
    I AM trying to work it out. As a matter of fact the vacation stuff
    did not come up in my talk with the UM or the District Manager.
    There are bigger fish to fry first. I'd have preferred to fix the
    vacation stuff with payroll and leave my manager working on the
    bigger problems. It may or may not get resolved.
    
    WHEW!! I apologize to the members of the conference for the length
    of this diatribe and I'm sorry if I ate up anyone's network bandwidth
    or anything. I realize that it's a major stray from the topic,
    but I felt that I had two character assination efforts from the
    author of .50 and felt that letting it go unanswered would let the
    author, with the He-doesn't-think-DEC-is-perfect-Off-with-his-head attitude,
    know that things are more complex than they seem at first glance.
    
    As far as personal advice to .50, please steer clear of any involvement
    as a Suicide Crisis Center volunteer. When someone is already
    frustrated and depresed and trying to figure out some way to get
    things going again somehow, I'd don't think you have the right touch
    for the job.
    
    Think about it, if I had just an "attitude problem" would I even
    have posted my first note asking for help?. 

    Jim

RE: .46

I think it is completely reasonable, and the right thing to do, for WC 4 people
to fill out their own time cards when there are exceptions (i.e., vacation,
sick time, holidays, leave time) to the normal "worked 40 hours this week"
routine.  Requiring the employee's signature prevents the possibility of
fraud perpetrated by the manager.  It's for our own protection and I, for one,
appreciate it.

--PSW

    	Before I started working for DEC I had made vacation plans,
    bought airline tickets etc. During the interview I mentioned this
    to my future supervisor. He let me take the paid vacation and each
    month as I earned a day I made out a vacation card and paid him
    back. Since we are paid a week after we work there was no fear of
    my leaving without paying the company back because they could always
    take it out of my last weeks pay. Anyway I am still here and now
    have 3 weeks accumulated.
    

    Several years ago, at another high-tech firm, three contract employees
    were told by their job shop that they would not be paid for Christmas
    and New Years Day because they did not work "the full day before,
    and the full day after" each holiday.  This would have been impossible,
    because the company in question was closed for a one-week shutdown
    between the holidays.  When the department manager heard this he
    called purchasing and made it clear that if the contract employees
    did not receive the holiday pay they would all be let go the following
    week, and immediately re-hired through a different agency.  They
    got paid.    
    
    

    I'm coming back here to post an update on my situation. In the .47-
    .51 range, I had quite a run-in with a couple of folks and it was
    suggested that I had an 'attitude problem' and should look for employment
    elsewhere.
    
    Well, I did. My resume hit the street. I mentioned this to a number
    of folks around the net. My mail box got a quick fill-up by notes
    to stop, cool down, and think it over again.
    
    After a serious weekend, I decided that the problems I had were local
    problems (the issues never did get resolved) and not corporate
    problems. Soooo, to make a long story short, I have now accepted
    a transfer to the office in Phoenix, AZ. I'll be headed that way
    in mid-July to hang out with the cacti. (I wish this had all
    happened this winter when there were 4-foot drifts in my front
    yard. It would have made the decision a lot easier)
    
    A number of my 'attitudes' have not changed. DEC is a big company
    with lots of problems. I didn't have a lot of success here in trying
    to make things better, but that doesn't mean that I can't do better
    elsewhere. DEC's main philosophies are sound. Some of the implementations
    are a little weak, but things can change with time.
    
    I think my next incarnation will be CANYON::ADKINS. So accept no
    substitutions. I'll be back after the move. (I can hear the crowd
    now, "Is that a promise or a threat?" ;-) )
    
    Later,
    
    Jim
    
    PS - On a side testimonial for NOTES - I arranged the job via
    COOKIE::JOBS. It came out being much more usefull than my dealings
    with Personnel. Sometimes I think that DEC runs on it's grapevines.
    But then again, the people *do* make the company. (And most of the
    people *are* pretty good)
    

I would like to announce 

- that Jim Adkins has accepted a position with the Phoenix Software 
  Services Delivery Unit, not Presales, Delivery 

- that he has accepted my apology for posting an erroneous public note

karl moeller sws 

    Re: .-1:
    
    Yikes! I sure hope they don't. ;-)
    
    Jim
    
    PS - Now that I *am* moving to Phoenix, anybody care to buy some
    nice wool slacks? Only worn once. (That's what I get for updating
    the wardrobe in the Spring sales . One never knows that the future 
    will bring)
    

re. 58:

> One never knows that the future will bring
    
In that case, hold on to the slacks  :-)

Good luck in your new job.

Dave.

================================================================================
Note 50.60                 holidays and temp emplyees                   60 of 60
WWF::POTTER                                           0 lines  10-JUN-1988 08:15
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                           -< HOLIDAY PAY FOR TEMPS >-

    	I can see what all you are saying about temps getting no holiday
    pay and you would at a well known company like this one.  I don't
    get holiday pay and thought I would since last summer I worked at
    a construction firm woirking outside doing labor and got holiday
    pay.  That is a little strange for a temp to not get holiday at
    a good company and recieve it at a lower job(construction labor).
    	I think that the company is a very good one, to it full timers,
    but temps wouldn't be here if they didn't think they were going
    to stay and if they didn't it is or was probably because they were
    disappointed with the policy' s for temps.  Whether it be the holiday
    policy ior any other one.  They wouldn't have worked her if they
    didn't plan on staying.  It sounds cheep of the company.
    		concerned
    			mp
    	        

    At many other companies you have to finish your 90 day probationary
    period before you are eligible for holiday benefits. 
    As for all temps planning on staying with DEC I have my doubts,
    we have quite a few temps that work only for the summer while not
    in school. I have talked with a few of them and some would like
    to stay with the company and others have other plans. Why doesn't
    the company that placed them here pick up thier benifits?
    
                    al

    Back to this one again eh?
    
    At one point in my career as a temp in WMO we were told that DEC
    in appreciation for all of our hours and hard work with no benefits
    would give every employee who put in 400 hours a day off paid. 
    When you worked o.t. like I did it added up fairly quickly.  My
    point is that DEC did try and do something worthwhile for the tag
    employees but most of them don't stay around long enough to see
    what is done.                    
                                     
    				Debbi

    My turn:
    
    Being a Northeastern University Co-op student, I work here at Digital
    for 3 or sometimes 6 months at a time.  In our group we presently
    have two graduated NU students working full time.  It is known that
    while being a co-op student they were earning vacation
    time, but could not use it.  When they came on full time they had
    already earned about 2 weeks worth of vacation time that they could
    now use however they felt.  In our group, and with Digital as a
    whole, it is a policy to attract coop students to come to Digital
    and to stay with Digital after graduating from college.
    
     (look in the Personnel Policies and Procedures manual,  It's in section 2.
    The Cooperative Education Program (Coop) is described in section 2.09 
    and Temporary Employment is in section 2.02).