Conference 7.286::digital

	What our organization DECplus (Digital Equipment Corporation, people
like us) has been doing in our monthly newsletter is interviews with various
people in the Digital community. These interviews are about how it is like to
be bisexual, transgendered, lesbian, gay, or parents of gay children. In one
interview we have Ron Glover, who is the World Wide Corporate Diversity
Mananger.

	We are releasing two interviews each week for the month of June. I have
permission from a lot of the people to post them in the notesfiles. So this
week we have just one which we have permission to post. It is Dawn Banks, a
member of the TS community. Some of you will remember her from this very file.
So here is her interview:





DECplus: What was it like at work going through the various stages of your 
	 journey?

Dawn: 	To tell the truth, I had it pretty easy. Pretty easy because I more or 
	less got to keep my same job and same pay as if I hadn't been on such 
	a journey.

	For a start, I should point out that as far as work was concerned, this 
journey went from 1978 through mid 1980 in Colorado, just outside of Boulder 
(Louisville). As your readers may well know, Colorado ain't the most liberal 
place in the world, although it was a bunch more liberal back in '78 than it is 
now.

	I should say that throughout this process, I was more scared of my 
coworkers than they were of me, but you wouldn't have been able to tell from 
looking. I finally screwed up enough courage to do "Pronoun Day" (TS talk for 
making the public change at work) shortly after one rather serious suicide 
attempt. I was depressed because I hadn't been making any progress for months, 
and surviving the suicide attempt gave me the strength of the realization that 
there are bigger things to deal with than the loss of a job or the judgments of 
others.

	I warned my boss, and even came in one day (on leave from the 
psychiatric ward).  There was a LONG line of people who just happened to be 
walking past the boss's office that day. It was one of the most embarrassing 
days of my life. Things looked like they'd work out, though, until I got back 
to the ward, and was greeted by a phone call from my boss, who informed me that 
THE BATHROOM PROBLEM had made things (from personnel's perspective) un-doable.

	I was predictably crushed by this, particularly given my already 
weakened state, but I decided that I'd just keep going back to work, and dress 
as they told me, but NEVER buy another shred of men's clothing. I'd just keep 
wearing what I already owned until they were in tatters. I figured that sooner 
or later, I'd either show up to work naked or personnel would blink.

	The latter happened, but only when pushed. I finally found myself having
to look for other work about a year later.  I had a good reputation as a systems
programmer, even if a bit flakey. I landed another job at a decent enough pay 
raise - albeit one that I wasn't too enthused about. During the termination 
interview at my old job, two issues came up: First that there was another 
department in the company that dearly wanted my services, and second that 
personnel was scared to death that I was going to sue their butts off for their 
earlier harsh directives.

	They were willing to deal. I ended up at a remote facility with only my 
boss and two other coworkers. THE BATHROOM PROBLEM wasn't a problem, since I was
the only one on site using the women's room. There also wasn't that procession 
of gawkers coming by to look at the latest entertainment. Of course, my new boss
was off telling EVERYONE who and what I was, which was difficult because I was 
in a customer service job.

	Changing public roles such as this, what we in the biz call the "Real 
Life Test" was certainly a time of tremendous turmoil for me. It's when I first 
developed my "uppity employee" negotiation technique of dumping my boss's desk 
in his lap - something I did often. Even though he was a loudmouthed, 
condescending, sexist, sex-addict, he was also very warm, supportive, and above 
all, patient with me.

	I stayed in this group for several months until they decided to strike 
out on their own. I was left with the choice between following them out to start
the new business, or to return to my original job back at "the plant" in systems
programming. I opted for the latter.

	This time, the transition was smooth. Yes, there were a ton of people 
who had to come and look. There were some minor flare-ups with people who were 
concerned about THE BATHROOM PROBLEM, but strangely, most of those were men 
pushing their fears through their concern for the women-folk at work. None of 
the women seemed to have a problem (again, lucky for me, compared to how it goes
for others). This time, management (a different management) came down hard on my
side, and made it clear that no BS would be tolerated. And, strangely, some of 
the most bitter opponents to my return ultimately became some of the people who 
eventually formed the strongest positive feelings towards me. This was an 
important learning experience for me.

	It was also the shortest. I was there for a couple of months before I 
got approved for surgery. I had surgery, then left about three months later. I 
went to work for another company where I'd been trying to get a job for years, 
and who were just waiting for my life to settle out a bit before they hired me. 
Of course, they didn't hire me until they had THE BIG MEETING beforehand to make
sure it was ok with the other employees. I stayed at that job for three and a 
half years before I came to work for DEC in 1983. Of course, the first two 
departments I worked for at DEC also preceded my offer letter with THE BIG 
MEETING to make sure it was ok with the other employees, also. It wasn't until 
about 5 years post-op that I ever got any job where my TS background wasn't a 
cause for the entire department to take up. Still, I've never had any job where 
that news didn't get to work at least as quickly as I did.

DECplus: How did the people react?

Dawn:	Some very positively; some very negatively. It doesn't generally end up 
	where we expect it to. The people who initially treated me positively 
	often came back with such a huge bag of hang-ups that I often had to 
	wonder whether the initial positive reception was really a case of 
	denial on their part. Similarly, some of the people who were the most 
	negative ended up being my greatest supporters after I'd eventually 
	gotten the chance to win them over.

	In the strangest twist of all, I guess I had to measure some of my 
acceptance by the amount of harassment I received. (for those of you who know 
me, understand that back then, I weighed about half what I do now, and was 
really quite the hot number.) There was one manager who kept grabbing me all 
over at the Friday afternoon meeting at the bar. There was another manager who 
came over to my house one night and undressed in my livingroom. And, there was 
one manager who felt the need to show his acceptance of me by grabbing me by the
head and engaging me in full lip-lock (forcefully).

	There were also people who just quit talking to me and never started 
again. As far as I was concerned, this was a non-problem. They neither made 
demands on me (as the people who pretended to be positive) nor did they create 
obstructions (as the people who loudly objected to my presence).

	And there were a couple of people who thoroughly disapproved of what I 
did, but still stood by me through it all, just because they were my friends. In
other words, people reacted about as well as people do any other time.

DECplus: When did you realize that you were really the opposite gender of what 
	 you were physically?

Dawn:	Well, whenever I ask this question, I normally get a load of crap from 
	people within the gender community. Opposite gender than my physical 
	sex, don'tcha know?

	Hell, I don't know. From early on, I just didn't think too much about 
gender, thinking it was a sort of elective thing, and it wasn't until puberty 
until I realized that my physical appearance was going to be here to stay. I 
didn't think of sex reassignment surgery (SRS) as being possible, so I didn't 
much think of my own sexuality, because it'd only make things worse. Still, I 
found myself to be female in my dreams; my sexual fantasies were usually from a 
female perspective; and I was obsessed with finding some way to get ahold of 
some estrogens to take.

	It wasn't until Renee Richards burst onto the news scene in the '70s 
that I realized where this was all headed. The moment I saw her, I realized what
my problem had been, and what I had to do.  It was about a half a year before I 
started acting on that, and maybe two years before I was finally approved for 
hormones.

DECplus: What was the most difficult part for you to go through on your journey 
	 to be the gender you were meant to be?

Dawn:	All of it, and I don't mean that facetiously. The actual transition 
	itself was the second most difficult thing I've ever done (my returning 
	to college to get a PhD has proven to be the most difficult).

	At the time, a bunch of "researchers" at Johns Hopkins were in a major 
tizzy, worried about losing some major funding due to their school's involvement
in SRS. Their solution was to cook a couple of studies to repudiate the entire 
process.  Unfortunately, most of the psychiatric community around Denver was 
willing to believe Johns Hopkins reports, which said that SRS just shouldn't 
ever be done anymore. This added one more set of hoops for me to jump through 
at a time when I didn't already have enough strength to be jumping through the 
hoops I had assigned for me in the first place.

	At the time, if I had any idea how difficult it was going to be, I 
would have killed myself, and gotten it right. It wasn't until only recently 
that I feel that I have the strength to go through such an ordeal, knowing ahead
of time what the issues will be. Ironically, in many ways, I had it easier than 
most, too, because I didn't have a family to disentagle from.

	What was the hardest part? The establishment of a new public identity, 
particularly when I was so young and self-conscious. The surgery was dead easy,
in fact, the only thing about the surgery that was a problem was my fears that 
someone would call it off at the last minute.

	The second hardest, in case anyone was wondering, was finally coming to 
terms with all of it nearly 10 years later.

DECplus: What things do you see happening in the TS community?

Dawn:	There has been an explosion within the TS community lately. The number 
	of surgeries - in both directions - seems to be on the upswing. More 
	and more, personnel departments and churches seem to have some existing 
	set of policies in place for the TS. I don't know how support groups 
	now vs. then differs (mainly because I avoided the TS community until 
	10 years post-op), but the level of support that these groups offer 
	nowadays is fantastic.

	There are lots of EXPERIENCED surgeons to choose from nowadays. It's 
even possible to do comparison shopping!

	Within the community itself is thrashing and uncertainty as it attempts 
to coalesce into something with an identity. I see this as sad, in a way, 
because often, the community will impose values onto a person who's just found 
the courage to break away from societal expectations. The big problem in the 
community now is the divisiveness between the different factions: Transvestites
and transgenderist groups often demand that their members prefer women as sex 
partners; gay groups often demand that their members don't cross dress because 
that's not the sort of image the gay community wants to perpetuate. Right off 
the bat, this leaves the homosexual transvestite feeling very isolated.

	Transgenderists put transsexuals down because they can find happiness 
without surgery; transsexuals put transgenderists down because they won't 
commit. Transsexuals put transvestites down because transvestites are too 
interested in clothing, and "aren't serious."  Transvestites aren't comfortable 
with transsexuals because transsexuals don't care enough about their appearance 
and tend to want to coerce everyone into being a transsexual. TVs and TGs 
generally can find some community that can at least live together, but TSs don't
want to play along, fearing that they'll lose their voice in the greater 
community. Predictably, TVs and TGs often see TSs as being a bit uppity.

	Many people in the TS community get upset at other activist members for 
concentrating their activism in the "wrong areas," or for not taking the 
appropriate party line. Many TSs, particularly post-op, won't even acknowledge 
that they are TS because they are no longer in transition. Therefore, the TS 
communities tend to be largely composed of pre-op, or just recently post-op. 
Many within the post-community get upset whenever someone tries to do any sort 
of activism, because they'd just prefer the whole matter to be swept back under 
the rug.

	If it all sounds a bit chaotic, it's only because it is. The TS 
community is still trying to find an identity, and much of it isn't even sure 
whether it wants an identity. The recurring phrase is "Well, we aren't like 
gays, because we don't have to find others like us." This obviously belies an 
assumption that the only reason to associate with other gays is spouse-hunting. 
Many TSs feel that associating with other TSs is dangerous (it runs the risk of 
outing them) and undesireable. Of course, many post-op TSs maintain two or three
secret TS friendships, kept separate from their greater sphere of friends, of 
course, among whom they feel they can let their hair down. (Of course, that some
TSs can only let their hair down among other TSs is an indication that they have
a little problem developing intimacies with "nons" is an issue for another day.)

DECplus: How did Digital, as a company, handle the entire situation?

Dawn:	For the most part, Digital didn't have to, because my transition was 
	complete long before joining Digital. Yes, the first two departments 
	did have THE BIG MEETING to see how the other people felt about me 
	joining. There's no telling how many other departments turned me down 
	because of THE BIG MEETING, but after the first two, I never got an 
	indication that it happened again.

	While at Digital, I never felt any overt discrimination based on my 
being TS, even though everyone in the company who cared to know, knew. On the 
other hand, I smashed into a bit of a glass ceiling placed rather low. It is 
unclear to me how much of this was due to my being TS, how much was due to my 
being female, and how much was due to my being an butthead on my own merits. As 
with any other case of covert discrimination, I'll never know, and those in 
charge will always have a plethora of plausible explanations.

	As for how Digital handles the transitions of others: It depends on the 
department. Some have been great, others we shouldn't speak about. Of course, 
TSs do tend to be more likely to get TFSOed than others, much like The Great 
Lesbian Purge of '92.

DECplus: What is the reality for DECplus as a group, to reach out to the TS 
	 community?

Dawn:	I really can't say. I personally don't know if you'll get much 
	participation. I can assure you that if you don't reach out, then the 
	TS community will never feel welcomed. I can also repeat my plea that 
	you remain open to TSs who otherwise identify as gay. We need not have 
	any more scenes like Nancy B's expulsion from the Michigan Women's Music
	Festival.

DECplus: How does it make you feel when you hear of the suicides of other 
	 post-op TS's because of work-related non-acceptance? 

Dawn:	The same as I feel hearing about suicides of other TSs for other 
	reasons. Some anger at the non-acceptance of TSs. OK, lots of anger.

DECplus: Is it easier to stay in your same company/group or move onto another 
    	 company/group in your true identity???

Dawn:	Hell, I don't know. Some people find the security of staying easier to 
	handle than the inevitable ridicule. That's certainly the option I took.
	Others prefer the anonymity of starting fresh somewhere else. On the 
	other hand, someone just starting their real life test is often going 
	to be very obviously in transition, and will be quickly identified as 
	such at the new company.

	That latter bit might sound bad, but even though one might be pegged as 
being TS, they at least don't have to deal with all the baggage of the 
expectations from people who knew "Joe" or "Fred" or whoever that other person 
was. One of the most important parts of trying to establish a new public 
identity is getting everyone to forget about the old one. (One of the major 
disappointments for many is the realization that the private identity - the crap
that goes on inside our heads - stays the same no matter what we do to the 
public identity. Again, that's for another day.)

DECplus: If there was one thing you could change at Digital to help the 
	 community, what would that change be?

Dawn: If you had one dollar to spend on ending war, hunger and ignorance...

    Interesting conversations but are heterosexuals included or excluded
    from this organization?  Does Digital have a heterosexual interest
    group?

>Does Digital have a heterosexual interest group?

Sure, it's called the singles notesfile. :*)

liesl

	DECplus is an organization that has straight, transgendered, bisexual,
lesbian and gay employees. Some of the people are former Digital people. We
have monthly get togethers, a monthly newsletter, a support group will be
forming to deal with work related problems, and we are basically forming a
community, and allowing others to see what the community is about. 

	We have a homepage which is at:


                    http://quince.tay.dec.com/www/decplus/


	The page started off with one internal page, and about 20 links to the
outside world. We have about 80 internal pages now, with about 150-200 links to
the outside world. 

	We're a growing group within Digital. :-)


Glen

	You can send me mail if you want..... I will add you to the
distribution list. 


Glen

                                  Nice site!
    
    OBTW Glen, you folks could prolly use some nice Web-oriented groupware.
    
                                     :-)
    

| OBTW Glen, you folks could prolly use some nice Web-oriented groupware.

	What do ya got in mind??? :-)

	There is also a chapter of DECplus out in Colorado. If you are
interested in joining or learning about them, you can send mail to:

                                 bss::decplus




Glen

    I at first thought to do a parody of the .1 interview with focus
    related to Digital Jobs and activities instead of sexual orientation
    or sexual activities but I realized that the DECplus folks are much too
    serious about this to take it in good fun;-)
    
    I'm truly pleased that the DECplus organization is providing support 
    and fellowship for likeminded individuals in other notesfiles and on the 
    Intranet WEB but I have to ask about the postings in the Digital
    Notesfile:
    
    What does sexual orientation have to do with the Digital mission?
    
    I've been in the DEC industry for over 15 years now and I've never,
    not once, been asked about sexual orientation with regards to the 
    computing solution I'm currently working on or the people I'm working
    with.  
    
    Given that, I believe that we should be concentrating more on HP,
    SUN, IBM, SGI, surviving as a company and staying Digital Employees 
    than the differences we have as Digital employees.
    
    
    Provide the URL, place the notesfile pointer for those interested but 
    let's reserve the Digital Notesfile for Digital Employee business
    both internal and external.
    
    JMHO
    
    John Wisniewski
    (Ready to be dragged off to the PC reeducation camp...:-)
    
    

| <<< Note 4647.10 by SCASS1::WISNIEWSKI "ADEPT of the Virtual Space." >>>


| What does sexual orientation have to do with the Digital mission?

	What does race, nationality, etc have to do with Digital's mission? The
end result is everything. You have people all over the world from all groups 
who buy computers. Understanding who you may be working with would go a long
way in problems down the line.

	If we go in and take our own customs, etc into another country, we
could very well lose an account to a competitor. Why? Because they may
understand the customer a lot better.

| I've been in the DEC industry for over 15 years now and I've never, not once, 
| been asked about sexual orientation with regards to the computing solution 
| I'm currently working on or the people I'm working with.

	What you don't know could end up hurting you. I know many people each
day who are closeted, but hear all sorts of things being said in high level
meetings, on the phone, etc. Whether or not a customer hears it or not may or
may not happen. But if you know ahead of time what's going on, there is less
chance of a mistake happening.

| than the differences we have as Digital employees.

	Knowing the differences can go a lot further than just with Digital
employees. But we'll stick with just the employee thing for a minute.

	If you can't work with an employee because they are <insert anything>,
then that is going to impede production being done to its fullest. If the
reason why you can't work with the employee is because you just don't
understand what they are about, then that is easier to help out with. These
interviews are a tool to help out the employees with any problems they may
have understanding some of their coworkers. And if you notice, they don't say
anyone HAS to change their minds about how they feel towards any group. It just
discusses the group itself from an individual's point of view. 

	So this is important to the company as a whole. This could very well
help people out with working with an individual because they may have a little
better understanding of them.

| (Ready to be dragged off to the PC reeducation camp...:-)

	Education only works if there is an open mind. :-)



Glen

RE: .11

	If anyone has an open mind, it's JohnW.

	FWIW, although I feel it's important to announce the presence of
	a group like this in the Digital notesfile, I can't say I feel
	it's important to talk about it here. I'm sure there is a more
	appropriate place. Also, the reasons you counter Johns note with
	are really stretching it. The fact that someone is "closeted"
	(Nu Werdz?) shouldn't really have alot to do with whether they
	want an Alpha .vs. an Intel, should it?

	I don't think anyone is argueing the mission, just the location.

							mike

    I think the hard-working moderators are on vacation, that's why
    Nu Werdz and DECPlus are going on ad infinitum.
    

| <<< Note 4647.12 by AXEL::FOLEY "Rebel Without a Clue-foley@zko.dec.com" >>>

| If anyone has an open mind, it's JohnW.

	Errr.... there was a smiley... but....open minds towards education is 
needed, regardless of what the subject is. 

| Also, the reasons you counter Johns note with are really stretching it. 

	Hmmm.... what if gay were replaced with women, with black, etc? If
understanding is the cause, would those other groups also be a stretch? They
may very well be for you, but I really don't know.

| The fact that someone is "closeted" shouldn't really have alot to do with 
| whether they want an Alpha .vs. an Intel, should it?

	Actually, it very well could. You don't know who is on the other end
of the phone. 

	But, like I said, it goes further than that. We as a company,
especially in these times we have now, don't need extra barriers stopping us
from getting the job done. IF the interviews could help some get past the
misunderstandings, then they have done their job.

| I don't think anyone is argueing the mission, just the location.

	There are other work related topics in here that apply to Digital, and
not to IBM, etc. This is just another one of those, isn't it?


Glen

>    I've been in the DEC industry for over 15 years now and I've never,
>    not once, been asked about sexual orientation with regards to the 
>    computing solution I'm currently working on or the people I'm working
>    with.  

Yes John. An incredible oversight! So what is is your sexual orientation?

Just kidding.

Patrick

    Another reason to place news about DECplus in this file is that
    it reaches a wider audience.  Who knows who might be reading this
    file.  This way several goals are met:  one, education to the fact
    that Digital does still have an active VoD program to be met;  two,
    Digits need to realize that on Digital property they must adhere to
    Corporate's need to provide a safe work environment;  and three,
    any person in here who wishes to get more information can tube or
    call Glen Silva (contact person).  

    Remember, that glbt is not just about the glbt individual.  There
    also happens to be family involved in the lives of the glbt indi-
    vidual.  One can, and does, open one's mouth and not realize that
    someone in the area most likely is closely connected in some way
    personally with a glbt person.  Foot in mouth dissease runs rampant
    without education to this issue.  

    justme....jacqui

    p.s.  I am on the board of DECplus.  I am the mother of a gay offspring.
    	  I have done a lot of research and did my thesis for my under-
    	  graduate degree from Lesley College on the issues the gay and
          lesbian individual experiences in the workplace environment.
    	  The word gay is used for both male and female individuals.

Re: .16

Actually, that's NOT a good reason, and one of the major problems we (the
mods) have with the way this file gets used.  If you take that view to its
logical conclusion, then there would be no need for any notesfile other than
DIGITAL.

The mods try to keep this file on the theme of "working at Digital", though
we tend to be more relaxed about this than in the past.  We don't want to
see it used as a bulletin board for arbitrary announcements, nor as
a substitute for setting up a more topical conference (or web server, etc.)

All three of the active mods were out of town last week, so more immediate
action was not taken.  My view on this topic is that an announcement of the
homepage and a description of DECplus is appropriate, but posting
interviews, etc. is not.

I am not at all astonished by the negative reaction of some to the subject
matter, but that (the subject matter) is one thing I don't have a problem with.
Prior to my coming to Digital, I had rarely (knowingly) encountered gays,
lesbians or transsexuals and had the common distrust and fear of them.  I've
since come to know and work with individuals in each of these categories,
some who were open about it, some who were not but I came to learn it on my
own.  What I found was that they're people, just like me, and that they
deserve dignity and respect, just like anyone else.


Glen, I would ask that you not post further DECplus material here.  Those who
would like to learn more can check out your web pages.

					Steve

| <<< Note 4647.17 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>


| The mods try to keep this file on the theme of "working at Digital", though
| we tend to be more relaxed about this than in the past.  

	And the interviews are just that... working at Digital. This is why I
do not see why there is a problem with this. 

| We don't want to see it used as a bulletin board for arbitrary announcements, 
| nor as a substitute for setting up a more topical conference (or web server, 
| etc.)

	I agree with this. There is a LOT we could actually put into this file,
but the working at Digital series of interviews we thought would be ok. If what
was posted was about gay pride, or about what we did as a group, then I could
see your concern. But I do have a hard time understanding your concerns when
the interviews meet your criteria. Working at Digital. People do talk about
what the feeling is like during layoffs, after Bob Palmer puts in a note, etc.
I believe this can also be an extension of that.

| What I found was that they're people, just like me, and that they deserve 
| dignity and respect, just like anyone else.

	And with these interviews, the hope is others in the workplace will
also see the same things. AND, see what it can be like to be gay, lesbian,
bisexual or transgendered and work at Digital.	

| Glen, I would ask that you not post further DECplus material here.  Those who
| would like to learn more can check out your web pages.

	Please, if you would, explain to me (online or off) why interviews
about people working at Digital go against your rule of subjects that deal with
working at Digital. It would help a lot with this.


Glen

    I was half way though the interview looking for a "Digital" content
    before I realized it was about personal issues with sexual orientation
    and not something that is about the "Digital" workspace specifically.
    
    I already do value differences in my life.. Many of my customers, peers
    and friends come from diverse backgrounds, breedings and orientations.
    
    The difference is that I try to treat them all the same:  As I would like
    to be treated in return.
    
    Recognizing diversity first comes from realizing that people are 
    more alike than different, then learning to appriciate the foibles
    we all have as human beings and the wisdom to be found in those 
    excentricities.
    
    After saying that...
    
    I stand by my earlier call that this notesfile shouldn't be the 
    repository of sexual orientation interviews and triumphs.  If 
    discrimination is occuring twords a Digital employee because of 
    their private life, that's a different matter entirely...
    
    Post the URL, reference the appropriate support notesfile and let
    the interested access the material there...
    
    As to my sexual orientation, I have this distinct fetish twords 
    Digital Hardware, but that's not what we're discussing here today;-)
    
    But oh, when the CPU and Cache are full, Virtual Memory's large, and the 
    I/O subsystems are pumping data the way they do, and the application is 
    stimulating several thousand users with Digital Equipment....
    
    Eh, I'm sorry, you'll have excuse me... 
    
    I really have to go and find an 8400 right now...;-)
    
    John W.
    
     

    .18 Please, if you would, explain to me (online or off) why
    .18 interviews about people working at Digital go against your 
    .18 rule of subjects that deal with working at Digital. It would 
    .18 help a lot with this.
    
    I am not the moderator but you already have a pointer in the Digital
    conference and a dedicated notes conference.   I think what he is
    getting at is that there is really no need to discuss this more
    in Digital notes conference - vector to DECplus conference...
    
    
    

>>    I was half way though the interview looking for a "Digital" content
>>    before I realized it was about personal issues with sexual orientation
>>    and not something that is about the "Digital" workspace specifically.

If you'd read the second half of the interview, you'd have found the part where
Dawn talks about her experiences being a TS at Digital.

						Brian

    If you read through the entire article, it does talk about the
    person's experiences at Digital, management reaction on hiring, 
    acceptance afterward.  I think it pertains to treatment of
    individuals at Digital and is relevant to the Digital notes conference.
    
    Just my opinion.
    
       

| <<< Note 4647.19 by SCASS1::WISNIEWSKI "ADEPT of the Virtual Space." >>>


| I stand by my earlier call that this notesfile shouldn't be the repository of 
| sexual orientation interviews and triumphs.  

	Where does the triumphs come from? And a repository? Hmmmm..... I will
say that how you wrote the above COULD be taken as something that contradicts
what you put in the 1st part of your message. 

	In a nutshell, it does meet the criteria that was set forth in here.
There should be no reason for them (just the interviews) to be stopped. They
are work related.


Glen

    There are many work-related Digital conferences.  Take a look at
    the index in EASYNET_CONFERENCES.  How come the mods haven't
    write-locked this note, as they would normally do when people
    are posting to the wrong conference?
    

| <<< Note 4647.24 by PADC::KOLLING "Karen" >>>

| There are many work-related Digital conferences.  

	Yes, you are correct. And this is one of them. 

| How come the mods haven't write-locked this note, as they would normally do 
| when people are posting to the wrong conference?

	I can't/won't speak for the mods.... but I can say the interviews do
meet the criteria that was presented a few notes back.


Glen

    
    	The number of irrelevant replies entered in this note thus far
    	very probably outnumbers the expected number of relevant replies
    	over a 2-month period.
    	

    Hate to add yet another "irrelevant" note in here Shawn, but if the
    Mods close this note down, then we're NEVER gonna hear the sequel to
    Wisniewski's 4647.19 -- and THAT would be a cryin' shame...
    
    John, you back yet?
    
    :)
    

Glen,

The DIGITAL notesfile is not intended as a substitute distribution method
for a "newsletter" or other material your group has put together.  Please
post further contributions in your own notesfile/web-server.  Thanks.

				Steve

| <<< Note 4647.28 by QUARK::LIONEL "Free advice is worth every cent" >>>


| The DIGITAL notesfile is not intended as a substitute distribution method
| for a "newsletter" 

	We aren't doing that here, so it is moot.

| or other material your group has put together.  

	So... if something HAS to do with work, and this is a work related
notesfile, then it can't be put in if it comes from DECplus? This is a little
hypocritical, isn't it? It is tied directly into Digital, and the everyday work
life, but it can't be posted? 

	Like I asked before, I'll ask again... why? Just saying it can't
doesn't explain the reasons. It meets the criteria YOU YOURSELF set forth. 
Yet you say it can't be here. I really think an explaination would help me
understand where you are coming from a great deal.



Glen

Trying to solve a problem with a UCX configuration is work related, but I don't
post such things here.  There's a UCX conference for that.  The general
idea is that if there is a conference on a particular subject, use that
conference.  Too many people view DIGITAL as a corporate bulletin board.  Most
people understand the general rules, some don't and we let them know.  Some
choose to flout them and cause headaches for the moderators.  Digital gives
the moderators broad responsibility and authority for the content of the
notesfiles.  Please respect our decisions.

					Steve

Glen,

Your decision to choose whatever lifestyle you prefer
is your personal, and private, choice. I couldn't
care less which choice you make. As a matter of
fact, I don't even want to know which one it was. 

I have no prejudices against people who have made 
different choices than I have; I just don't
need to hear about them in an unsolicited context.
If I wish to know about the activities of singles,
nudists, gays, submissives, adulterors, virgins or 
whatever other persuasions I can think of, I will 
seek out, or start, a notes conference that discusses 
that topic.

All of us (I hope, although I wonder about some
people) have a life outside work. While we, 
individually, may be passionately interested in 
those pursuits, it is not considered appropriate that 
they be discussed in this forum.

I think a note, informing us that such a conference
exists, is fine. Beyond that, with all due respect,
"just because it happened to you, it doesn't make it
interesting".

Jay

	One small nit.... there was no choice.

Would the moderators write lock this note?  Please!

>	One small nit.... there was no choice.

I beg to differ.  If there was no choice made, then there would be no
reason for DECplus to exist!

| <<< Note 4647.34 by INDYX::ram "Ram Rao, PBPGINFWMY" >>>

| I beg to differ.  If there was no choice made, then there would be no
| reason for DECplus to exist!

	One reason for decplus to exist is really to help out with
misconceptions like the above.

	I don't think you woke up one day saying you were straight. It just
was. And that is all I am saying it was for me.

	Support, which is one facet of decplus, is there to help those
understand the truth. 



Glen

    Re .30
    
    Hey!  I resemble that.

>	One reason for decplus to exist is really to help out with
>	misconceptions like the above.

This discussion is moving into the subject of worldview and/or theology.
While acceptance of others in the workplace is definitely in Digital's
stated interests, foisting one worldview/theology on others is definitely
not.

>	I don't think you woke up one day saying you were straight. It just
>	was. And that is all I am saying it was for me.

My worldview/theology states that you were born straight and aberrations
are of your choosing!

>	Support, which is one facet of decplus, is there to help those
>	understand the truth. 

My worldview/theology says that "what you perceive to be truth" is indeed
a colossal lie!

    re: Note 4647.29 by BIGQ::SILVA 


>	So... if something HAS to do with work, and this is a work related
>notesfile, then it can't be put in if it comes from DECplus? This is a little
>hypocritical, isn't it? It is tied directly into Digital, and the everyday work
>life, but it can't be posted? 

    Glen,

    I can't tell you the exact rules, but it seems that whenever there is
    some other place dedicated to discuss a topic people are asked to go
    there. Look through the notes file and see how many times people talking 
    about stock or save are told to take there discussion to another notes
    file.

    I don't think your topic is being singled out, this just seems to be
    the way this conference works.

    -Bruce 

	Glen,

	The more you push back on this cause, the more many of us with
	open minds enough to value your differences will turn our backs 
	out of annoyance. Let me try and make the point this way, using
	your own arguement.

	Should I discuss my single, hetro life here at Digital in this
	notesfile? No, I go to the Singles notesfile. (I have no choice
	in being male, hetro, and single)

	Should I discuss my problems with Windows95 and how it relates
	to my job here in this notesfile? No, I go to the Windows95
	notesfile. I have no choice, I have to use it.

	I could go on and on, ad nauseum, but I won't. The point we are
	ALL trying to make is "Glad to see you have a cause, but the
	proper place to talk about it, if interested, is in the 
	appropriate notesfile/website/mailing list" That's all. We're
	not coming down on you personally, but for sh*ts sake, you're
	not helping yourself or members of your community by rallying
	in this conference.

							mike

    I have disabled further replies to this topic.  Please continue
    discussion of DECplus in the DECplus notesfile.
    
    				Steve - co-moderator

	For more information on DECplus, and what it does, check out Digital
Today, the August 15th edition, page 6.


Glen

	The DECplus homepage (for bisexual, gay, lesbian and transgendered
people at Digital) has moved to an internet providor. The new url is:


                         http://www.yvv.com/decplus/


Glen

	The DECplus homepage (for bisexual, gay, lesbian and transgendered
people at Digital) has moved to a different, more reliable internet providor. 
The new url is:


                         http://www.ziplink.net/~glen/decplus/


Glen

	The following two notes contain a list of contacts for the bisexual,
gay, lesbian and transgendered people of DIGITAL.

	If you have questions about policies, benefits, support, etc, the Human
Resources dept has giving us the blessing to post their contacts as one place 
to go.

	If you would rather work from behind the scenes, then use the DECplus
contact list. We will work through you and with HR. 


DECplus Eboard

    HUMAN RESOURCES CONTACTS:
    
    Open Door Office:
    ----------------
    
    Maureen Letendre	EMAIL:	letendre@powdml.enet.dec.com
    			DTN: 	223-4751
    
    John Murphy  	EMAIL:	murphyjoh@mail.dec.com
    			DTN:	223-9566	
    
    EEO Offices:
    -----------
    
    1. Maynard
    
       Ted Campbell 	EMAIL:	tedcampbell@mail.dec.com 
       			DTN:	223-8975
    
       Pat Carter	EMAIL:	carterp@mail.dec.com 
       			DTN:  	223-8960	
    
       Barbara Skaggs	EMAIL:  skaggsb@mail.dec.com
       			DTN:  	223-8973
    
       Ed Mansfield	EMAIL:  mansfield@mail.dec.com
       			DTN:  	223-9635
    
       Jonathan Loftus	EMAIL:  loftus@mail.dec.com
       			DTN:	223-8972

    2. Washington, DC
    
       Andy McCallum	EMAIL:	unknown as of yet
       			DTN:	339-5767	
    
    3. Central/Southwestern
    
       John Garza 	EMAIL:  garzaj@mail.dec.com
       			DTN:	566-3487	

    4. West Coast/Colorado
    
       Isaac Shaw	EMAIL:  shawi@mail.dec.com
       			DTN:  	521-7179