Conference 7.286::digital

    
    The Worcester, MA T&G newspaper has done a couple of these type articles
    over the past two years. I've seen them in the business section and the
    local news section. Both contained several former employees. 
    Can't provide you with dates.
    
    John B.

    Noter:
    
    		The real problem is that with the economy doing so poorly
    the 'good' stories are about 10%, while the 'bad' stories are about
    90%.    Other reasons is the we (including myself) are sometimes not
    prepared for this change.   We are sitting here confortable in our
    'Confort Zone' without any future plans, other than retiring someday.
    
    		I've seen and been involve with people starting their own
    business.   Folks, there are no words to explain the amount of stress,
    risk, hour worked, etc.   Basically you are putting your last penny up
    for graps.   It is true that you can 'control' some of the outcome, but
    sometimes (example: flood in the Midwest), the lucky 'lady' is not
    with you.
    
    		It is definitively not as easy as it looks.  You MUST be
    flexible to let 100% of your available time be solely dedicated to
    make your new business a success (that means saturdays, sundays and
    other holidays included).    Now this is only for a while, it is not
    forever.   However, many of us are not willing because family
    commitments, community commitments, self commitments, get in the
    middle, sad to say that is when you fail.

    Well, the plumber who just spent his second morning at my house in the
    last two weeks (and due back for the final bunch fo repairs some day
    next week) said he was TFSOed from Digital last year.  Considering what
    plumbers charge, I guess he is doing OK!
    
    /Charlotte

    I was TFSO'ed in December (the week before Christmas) with 14 other
    people.  We had three days to find a job within Digital or we were
    out the door.  Three people got job offers within Digital, within 
    three days (we had no warning at all that our group was downsizing, 
    so no one was looking around prior to getting the ax).
    Two people got jobs outside of Digital within three months, however one
    was laid off again last month.
    Most of the other people are still UNEMPLOYED.  This includes a couple
    of Product Managers, SRI 41 or above, a couple of Senior Engineers and
    one Engineering Manager.
    I know of no one that has started a small business.
    Of the total of 15 people, I believe only three of us are better off
    than before the TFSO.
    
    I hope other people know of some postitive stories.
                                    

    Dave Cantor is currently in training to be, yes, a Blackjack dealer 
    at the Foxwoods casino in Ledyard, CT.  Scheduled to start work after 
    Labor Day or thereabouts.  He is very excited about this opportunity.
    
    Last I heard he was still living in Nashua and on the Internet 
    (cantor@mv.MV.COM), but looking for an apartment near work.
    
    Also my wife was TSFO'ed a few years ago and is going to start Law School 
    in just over two weeks.
    
      John

    I called Hertz the other day, and the rep on the other end said he
    used to work for DEC and took the early retirement package.  
    
    A cashier at Market Basket saw my badge and said she had worked in 
    WMO and had taken the early retirement.  She said she loved working
    part time at MB.  
    
    I haven't heard from anyone who has taken the package and become
    millionaires.  8)
    
    

    I've heard one of our Corporate Goals is to make ALPHA an industry
    standard.
    
    Now, our friends in Intel require to place the famous Intel Inside
    Logo on all PC's (in the carton box and in the PC itself).
    
    Now there is an inexpensive way to advertise.
    
    One Question to our marketing organization:
    
    	Why don't we have an ALPHA AXP Available (or other lines) Logo ?
    
    Can someone answer this please ???????
    

    >                 <<< Note 2601.7 by ELMAGO::JMORALES >>>
>                   -< Looking for simple answers ????????? >-

    Wrong note?
    
>    Now, our friends in Intel require to place the famous Intel Inside
>    Logo on all PC's (in the carton box and in the PC itself).
    
    Not true.  
    
    
    Mark.

Well, of my close acquaintances that have left over the past 4+ years of this
maddness (it really started in August 1988 by my reckoning), all but one have
found other employment.  With that one exception, all of them that I am still 
in contact with are happier, more relaxed, leading more balanced lives.  Also,
I believe (atho I can't state it as fact) that all are making less money.  But
it doesn't seem to be a problem for them -- more than compensated by having
a reasonable life again.

    My next-door neighbor took early retirement from Digital, and started
    working the next day for Stratus, at a much higher salary - he's happy
    as a clam!  It's even a shorter commute for him, and his duaghter also
    works there.  And the extra money enabled him to make some needed
    repairs on his house (I know what THAT costs - my place, which is the
    same basic plan as his, needs the same stuff done as well).
    
    /Charlotte

  I heard that someone who was laid off from LKG started the Subway just down
the street that opened about 6 months ago. That may be a success story, at
least the place is still in business.

    re; .08
    
    	I misplaced this note (you are right).
    
    	Intel Inside Logo on all PC's 
    
    	I've been to Canada (Tiger I, II & III), Ayr, Scotland (Starburst,
    Viceroy, Tiger I, II and III) and I work in Albuquerque, New Mexico
    (Starburst and Viceroy).   Per strick order of the new PC VP, we HAVE 
    to put the Intel Inside Logo to ALL (100%) of the PC's that we
    manufacture.   With one exception: Jensen, because it is the Alpha
    PC.   Now this one does not say ALPHA AXP Ready on a logo outside
    Why not is my question ????????   Where is the answer ???????????

    RE.9
    
    FSE tfso'd - Now dedicated to large site, lives in country, smiles
    a lot.
    
    FSE tfso'd - Owns video store not competing with BBuster, owns
    laudromat, works on "pc's" part time and turns away business, smiles
    a lot.
    
    Personnel - moved back up NE to be big fish in little pond. Current
    status unknown, presumed okay.
    
    Personnel Mgr - Took another internal job, tfso'd, last I heard he
    was doing well with a management recruitment firm in Nashville.
    
    FSE tfso'd - started vending route, doing well.
    
    FSE tfso'd - no frills, no bills. lives in country, works for cash,
    smiles a lot.
    
    Most, but not all, of the people I have known personally that were
    tfso'd have found L.A.D. rewarding and less stressful.  One person 
    told me that he was relieved to know it was finally over.
    
    Please don't keep me wondering no more.
    
    Mike
    

    
    Mr Moderator,
    
    It appears that ELMAGO::JMORALES is lost. 
    
    Can we move the Intel Inside discussion to a more appropriate place,
    like maybe a new note?
    
    
    Thanks

    The new volume of the marketing conference at MR4SRV::MARKETING is
    probably a better place to discuss marketing issues like this.

    A former Mpls. Digital employee was TFSO'd about one year ago and has
    begun a small business in the area catering to home-brewing hobbiest's. 
    He says he's never been happier...even though he's never worked harder. 
     
    It's too early to know exactly how successful his business will be,
    but it has real potential.  He's considering franchising. 
    
    While at Digital he worked as a service's unit manager and a services
    sales rep.  I'd say this represents a significant career change.
    
    Mike

A former Services Engineer became the Demo Center Manager and was TFSO'ed 
within a number of months. He is now working right next door to the Digital 
facility here in Rochester as a system manager for a customer at a higher
salary. Although I wish him the best, its a shame he's no longer with us.
I think this could be considered a success story.

    Three individuals come to mind. 
    
    1 was a a Field service business manager. Put up several money winning
    proposals in DEC, all fell on deaf ears. He has made $1M+ in 2 years,
    operating from his basement, doing service planning consulting, etc.
    ONly works 100 days/year, spends rest of the time, fishing and going to
    college...
    
    2. Tech support guy, now commutes around the world at his leasure,
    picking up a bit of work in BOston, a bit in Palo Alto, some back here
    in Australia.Won't commit to more than a 1 month contract. Does need to
    work, just does it more amusement.   
    
    3. Techo software designer. Currently rejecting any offers under
    $2K/day unless it sounds interesting. (and then, he might just do it
    for free...)
    
    All three have been pestering me to "Jump ship", and work with them.
    
    q

    re -1
    
    Are you waiting to be kicked? ;-)
    
    Cheers,
    
    Mark.

    I ran into Pete Berry some months ago, he is working in a bakery
    and attending school for the same. He looked so much better, there
    was a twinkle in eyes and an unbelievable enthusiasm in his voice.
    
    In the Sunday Boston Globe Ken Olsen was quoted about tranformation
    of many former Digital executives in that they were happier and
    [my words] more human than in their time at DEC.
     

    I know three people who were TFSO'd.  Two of them are doing great!!! 
    One opened her own business -something she wanted to do for a long
    time.  The other had gone back to college about a year before TFSO -
    she is in her mid 40's.  Now she is doing it full time instead of
    parttime and was offered a job by the department head of Finance.  The
    third - is still at home waiting for his unemployment to run out....I'm
    not saying that it is easy......but there is life after DEC and I
    really believe that the % is much higher than 10% for success stories.
    
    

    it would be nice if DEC makes a new kind of TFSO package, like may be a 
    "go-try-it-out-for-a-while-TFSO" package, where they like would TFSO you 
    for say 3 or 6 months , and you go see if you make a success like the 
    other stories we heard in the last few notes, if you dont like in the 
    outside or you bump out cold , you have the choice of coming back in and 
    to stay a happy DECeee.

    any way, it is just an idea.

    \nasser

A person at DEC developed a VMS-based game called Doomsday 2000. He went
on to get permision from DEC to port it to another platform. His port for
the MAC, called Thunderbolt, is a great success. (See details below).

Here is his good-bye note...


              <<< HELIX::SYSTEM_AUX:[NOTES$LIBRARY]DOOM.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< DoomsDay 2000 >-
================================================================================
Note 422.0                        Fond Farewell                        9 replies
ARCANE::SCHEIFLER "Service with a smile, Citizen .." 40 lines  12-NOV-1992 12:40
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        Dear fellow DOOM enthusiasts ...

        I have reached an interesting turning point in my life.  Various
        circumstances have come to pass that have caused me to think long
        and hard about what I'd like to be doing in the coming years.

        This past August marked my 40th birthday.  I am a Senior Software
        Engineering Manager / Cost Center Manager responsible for all base
        operating system development support for Digital's family of fault
        tolerant computer systems here in Marlboro Massachusetts.

        Well ... about a month ago a high-level strategy committee decided
        to realign our focus with regard to fault tolerance.  Given a merger
	with the mainline engineering community and a reduction in staffing,
	this left me in a situation of not being able to justify (to myself)
	my current position - fewer engineers means fewer managers, and the
	resulting organization does not really warrant a senior software
	manager.  So this placed me in the awkward predicament of having to
	consider what to do next.  Kinda scary, actually.  But I now know
	where I'm headed, although it took a good deal of introspection.

        Yep, you've guessed it.  What with the glowing review of Thunderbolt
	in the October issue of MacUser magazine, winning the MacWorld Game
	Hall of Fame award for best roleplaying game of 1992 (see the December
	issue of MacWorld), and the PC 'port well underway ... I am "poised
	for success".  What has been just a hobby for me will now have my
	full-time attention.

        It has been an interesting 17 years here at Digital, and I have many
	happy memories to look back upon.  And I have greatly enjoyed our time
	together, whether by mail, notesfiles, personal relationships, or as
	fellow coworkers.  Beginning next week I'll be off somewhere in a
	TFSO holding area and probably won't have much interaction on the
	net from here onward ... so barring sudden changes in plan (anything
	is possible these days ;^) this is a fond farewell.

        Best wishes to all of you in your own endeavors.

	     	Dave S.

    All TFSO people that I know are doing pretty well.  Majority of
    them find jobs.  Few of them started their own businesses.  I don't
    know anyone that is doing "worse".
    
    Wendy

    Stan Rabinowitz (formerly of HARE::) is working at Avid, on video
    editting systems.  BUT his real success is that he is an author.
    He has created an index to published math problems.  Volume 1 is
    out (covers 1980-1984) and selling well.  He is now reducing the
    data for the next two volumes (1975-1979 and 1985-1989).
    
    							Ann B.

I know one person that bought a bed and breakfast in the Bahamas.  One from my
office is on a round the world trip with his wife, we just received a post card
from Greece.  A third is going to start vet school at OSU in September,
something shes wanted to do since she was a little girl.

Many have found positions, but it depends on how hard you try and how current
your skills are.

Personally I'd be a ski bum for a year...

    What sort of job did this friend of yours have that he could, after
    getting laid off from here, afford to take his wife on a trip around
    the world??  Must not have been a plain old engineer, like me, I guess!
    If the sword of Damocles strikes me, I'll have to job hunt IMMEDIATELY.
    If I am lucky enough to find something else before my severance pay
    runs out, so much the better - I just got here, having been babysitting
    the plumbers at my place for the third morning in just over a week,
    with one more morning scheduled before the hot water system is working
    again, and so far this has cost me more than $900!
    
    I guess I am glad some folks are doing so well.  But I'm jealous, also.
    
    /Charlotte

    
    Alot of the replys here say that the people (NOT resources), have
    found positions of satisfaction (e.g., job), in areas ***other-than***
    the computer/high-tech arena.
    
    Are people fed up with this arena, and therefore take the opportunity
    of being TFSO'd to do something less stressful (e.g., what they have
    always wanted to do).
    
    

    
    re: last few
    
    This is very heartening, but should not be too surprising.
    
    Until 1988 or 1989, Digital was aguably one of the most
    successful companies in the history of capitalism.  This
    was accomplished by the construction of a group of the best
    engineers and professionals ever assembeled under one
    roof (figuratively speaking).  
    
    Now that many of those professionals are no longer with us, they
    are going on to other successes.  Why would we think it would
    be otherwise?
    
    Glenn

    
    I should have added the experience of one of my friends.
    He got the package in March, and hit the ground running.
    He knew he wanted to take his high-tech experience into a
    non-high tech manufacturing environment, so he went to the college 
    job search people (he was going to school nights) and did
    a database search. 
    
    In addition to using DBM, he also searched the database for
    all manufacturing companies within a 50-mile radius of his
    zip code (the result?  Hundreds of companies).  He sent them
    *all* resumes and cover letters.
    
    He got a job with a small manufacturer of shrink wrapping machines
    that needed both his technical writing skills, and his process
    and systems analysis background.  They didn't even realize they
    needed someone with his skills until the resume crossed the
    president's desk.  They hired him immediately.  Better yet,
    he got a small raise from his DEC salary, and better benefits.
    
    His wife had a pre-existing medical condition, so the insurance
    at the new company wouldn't pick her up right away.  So, instead,
    the company offered to pay his COBRA payments until she was
    eligible for their plan.
    
    They also let him take his first week as a vacation, since he
    had a family week planned for that week.  They close the doors
    at 5:00 pm every day and kick everyone out.  They bought him
    a full-boat 486 to his specs.  They are a leader in their
    industry, both domestically and internationally (using American
    labor, no less).  They have no plans on moving anything to 
    Mexico or Taiwan.
    
    Needless to say, he is very happy.
    
    BTW, he was an excellent performer for Digital.  He reported
    to me for 2 years when I was a manager, and I worked with 
    him as a peer for 10 years total.  The group he left kept more
    marginal performers.
    
    Glenn

     
    	re .28
    
    	Newsweek did a study (JUNE or JULY 92, but I can't find the issue)
    that stated 3 out of 4 people (76-78%) that are forced out of their
    current job never seek employement in the computor industry again. I
    found that very suprising but not all that hard to understand. 
    
    	We've had several close friends and co-workers forced to leave.
    It's heart wrenching and usually a sad time. Many of the people have
    gone on to find better jobs while some have dropped over the edge of the
    planet, never to be heard from again.
    
    	The jist of it , and what I assume is the point of this note, is 
    that the same talent that made you a sucess at digital will not fail
    you once you leave digital. It's easy to point fingers at someone
    and say, "Boy, that person is a marginal performer". What I dont think
    a lot of people understand is that the level we take for granted  
    as "just getting by" is usually pretty good on the outside. I've
    alway contended that the "average" inside is not average at all.
    
    	I guess my point is, take heart. We are a tallented bunch of
    people that are in demand. 
    		Heck, Tandom isn't even talking CLIENT/SERVER yet.
    
    
    jim

    
    Two stories of friends, both 'happy':
    
    1. Applications programmer went into Sales Support and got TFSO'd.
       Now working as a programmer for a publishing house, and very happy.
       Time from TFSO to new job: approx 5 months.
    
    2. Finance person TFSO'd.  Now working with Fidelity & quite happy
       with the new job.  Time from TFSO to new job: approx 3 months. 

    Stories..
    
    o	Have one friend who got and started a job with Stratus the monday
    	after his last friday at Digital.  Got to enjoy the package and
    	his new, improved pay from his new company for a few months.. No
    	complaints.
    o	Another friend knew TFSO was around the corner, and had been wanting
    	to get back in the aerospace field.  Quit Digital, got a job
    	working for lesser pay, but doing what he loves.  That is, he writes 
    	software to be used in operating sattelites.  Happy as a clam!
    
    I am the Localization Engineering Group supervisor for one of Digital's
    newer subsidiaries.  I am working on returning to the States, and have
    made inquiries as to whether my experiences may be of any use in the 
    current trend for producing international products.  Digital has been 
    slow to respond, yet I am getting inquiries from competitors and other
    companies starting to go international.  I've given my verbal
    resignation effective the end of November giving the local management
    time to hire someone to replace me, whom I can train..and then I will
    be moving onto my life after Digital as well.     

    Well it seems life is a bit rosy north of the border too...

    Last November a whole slew 20ish of people got the package in my
    department.  Of the people I knew:

    o  One got a better paying and is developing marketable skills in his
       new position.  He's also enjoying what he's doing.

    o  A bulk of the people got 5-9 month contract positions with one firm
       in town with a extremely good possibility of renewal for another 9
       months.  Earning  300-500 a day you don't need to work 11 or 12
       months!  All in all, most of the people I knew have found something
       comparable or better than they had at DEC speaking in terms of salary 
       and interesting work.
       
    o  Another fellow that used to work with me left DEC this June
       and is enjoying his new job and well over 20% improved salary
       increase.
       
    Yes, Virginia, there is L.A.D.!

    RE .23
    
    Dave Scheifler was the Digital "engineer" that installed TOPS-20
    where I worked in 1975 (as a customer)!  I can't believe that he was 
    around all of these years and I never bumped into him.  Years later he
    told me that he had never seen a DEC-20 until he showd-up at our sight
    to do the O/S install.  Nice to hear he's doing well as is happy.
    
    
    It's good to hear some people have done well after digital.  A few in
    this office are requesting the package on the next go-around.  They are
    just burned-out with digital, all the frustration, all the stress, all
    the disappointments.  They don't have jobs yet, they just want out.....
    A very sad situation.
                                                                 

    
    Re back a few.
    
    Another of the reasons that people leaving the company are seeking
    employment outside the high-tech marketis that, at the moment, nearly
    all companies are suffering and the market doesn't have too rosy an
    outlook.
    
    I'm sure things will change in this area but people's patience is
    beginning to wane.
    
    Just my thoughts.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Music.

Radia Perlman, the developer of DEC's 'spanning tree' algorithim/protocol
used in Ethernet bridged networks EVERYWHERE, is leaving DEC and going
to Novell.

This is a HUGE loss for Digital.

Lee

My husband, software engineer TFSO'd last December, got a job in less than a 
month, as a engineering recruiter.  He likes it alot better than Digital, he 
gets to use people skills rather than programming skills and likes the faster 
pace and positive attitudes in his office.  Financially, he started out about 
the same but is increasing much faster than at Digital because he has the 
oppportunity and motivation to affect his pay based on how much effort he 
puts in - what a concept!

        Sandy Fraser  was  tfso'd  at  the end of June and started work
        with another company  on  Monday last week - with a significant
        increase in salary and benefits (cash profit sharing bonuses, 6
        month review cycle, etc.) She was snapped up following a 5 hour
        series  of  technical  interviews,  to  do    the   same  (user
        support/operations)  technical  job  she  had  been  doing  for
        Digital.
        
        Interesting thing is that her old  group,  which  used  to  be,
        before she and another woman were tfso'd:
        
                BIG mgr --> little mgr --> group of 6 worker_bees
        
        and went to:
        
        BIG mgr --> Middle mgr --> little mgr --> 4 worker_bees
                               --> supervisor -->

        Amazing, but I have confidence they know what they're doing...
        
        Andy
        
        PS.  I heard that of the 4 remaining WBs, two are quitting that
        group - one leaving Digital completely; such is morale.

    	Hey, wait a minute! People aren't leaving Digital because there
    aren't any jobs out there. And morale isn't bad. We're just all a bunch
    of whiners. Oops...Wrong note.
    	I'm anxious for the day when all the organizations look like this:
    
    BP -> Senior VP -> VP -> VP -> Group Mgr. -> low-level Mgr. -> 0
    
    	I'm anxious because I'm wondering how long it would take them to
    realize that no work was actually getting done...if ever.

    Re: .40 by STAR::DIPIRRO:
    
    >I'm anxious because I'm wondering how long it would take them to
    >realize that no work was actually getting done...if ever.
    
    Whatever the answer, it is in units of Q (quarter years)   :-)

RE: 2601.40 by STAR::DIPIRRO

You got the chart wrong.
    
    P -> Very Senior VP -> Senior VP -> VP -> Junior VP -> Assistant VP ->
           Junior Assistant VP -> Very Junior VP -> Junior's Assistant VP -> 
           Assistant Junior VP -> Very Assistant VP -> Kinda Assistant VP -> 
           Junior Upper Lower Level VP -> Junior Middle Lower Level VP -> 
           Junior Lower Middle Lower Level VP -> {...} -> 
	   Senior Group Mgr. -> Group Mgr -> Assistant Group Mgr -> 
	   Upper Mid-level Mgr. -> Mid Mid-level Mgr. -> Low Mid-level Mgr. ->
	   Senior line Mgr -> Line Mgr -> Supervisor -> 0


Phil

    >
    >P -> Very Senior VP -> Senior VP -> VP -> Junior VP -> Assistant VP ->
    >       Junior Assistant VP -> Very Junior VP -> Junior's Assistant VP -> 
    >       Assistant Junior VP -> Very Assistant VP -> Kinda Assistant VP -> 
    >       Junior Upper Lower Level VP -> Junior Middle Lower Level VP -> 
    >       Junior Lower Middle Lower Level VP -> {...} -> 
    >	   Senior Group Mgr. -> Group Mgr -> Assistant Group Mgr -> 
    >	   Upper Mid-level Mgr. -> Mid Mid-level Mgr. -> Low Mid-level Mgr. ->
    >	   Senior line Mgr -> Line Mgr -> Supervisor -> 0
    
    
    this is so funny :)
    
    \nasser

    
    
    
    	More like SAD!!!  :-(          But true!!!

    re. last few.
    
    Looks like MOSTEK's organization before BP sold it to United Tech.
    
    					John G.

I saw Siegfried Heintze last evening.  Before he was TFSOd two years ago, he
was working in the services tools engineering group in Colorado Springs.

He's an independant consultant teaching Object Oriented methodologies and C++. 
He's also in the process of working on a book.  He seemed to be doing well,
given the brief chat we had.

He says I should pass on the word about his consulting to anyone who needs
training on OO.

BobW

    
    Another friend and erstwhile subordinate of mine called this morning.
    He got hit (shafted, really) the last round.  He landed a contract
    job within a week of being layed off.  He's got another coming up
    at what he called a *good* rate, that is slated to last 6-9 months.
    
    All in all, he says it doesn't seem that bad out there to him.
    
    He's a good one, and he'll do well, I'm sure.
    
    Glenn