Conference 7.286::digital

    Gee, any of you guys have job openings over there???  All we get
    is the "Pepsi Challenge":
    
    Trying to find change for the Pepsi machine, when it works ...
    
    Geoff
    

    In Oz we don't have beer in vending machines at work, but I've yet to
    see an office without a fridge full!  Of course, when the muckity-mucks
    from the States come over we have to drink it all very quickly and
    pretend we are just like they are.

    
    We had beer in the vending machines in Valbonne up to a few years
    ago, but not anymore. Our cafeterias offer beer and wine for lunch.
    
    /Ake

    
    Add Madrid, plus Shandy in the UK ........
    
    Shandy = mix of lemonade & beer beloved of children, approx 1.2%
    alcohol (ie stronger than many LA beers). 25c a can, LA beer $1
    or more!

Re: < Note 1120.3 by HYEND::DMONTGOMERY >
>                         -< Tokyo too, I've heard... >-

  I don't believe we have any vending machine which offers beer in DEC-Japan.

  Dolby SHIMONO
  DEC-Japan  Tokyo

    Plenty of beer and wine in the cafeteria all day here in Geneva.

>  <<< Note 1120.0 by FNYTC6::HOUZE "Je dirais meme plus: Pas d'affolement" >>>
>                               -< BEER AT WORK >-

>DEC does not allow alcohol at work. Beer contains alcohol right ?

As far as I am aware, that rule only applies in the US. The US is 
paranoic about drink, in my opinion. Not only do they have one of
the highest drinking ages around, but it's rigidly enforced too.

I understand that even the odd drink at lunchtime is frowned upon in
the US, whereas going down the pub on a Friday lunchtime is a pretty
widespread custom in England. 

Most of the rest of the world has a more relaxed attitide towards
drink, as other replies have shown.

In the UK, the company even subsidies 'booze cruises' across the Channel
to France to buy wine and beer etc via the Sports and Social club, and
there is a bar in Reading on Digital premises, which Digital subsidises!!
(It doesn't serve alchohol during normal office hours though I think)

>Is there any DEC location where soft drinks machines (or non-stop cafeteria) 
>offers beer outside lunch hours, along with coke and orange juice ?
I have heard it said that in France, restaurants (including canteens) have
to serve wine. In Germany, certain drinks dispensing machines also have to
serve beer. Not having lived in either of these countries, I am not certain
- perhaps an inhabitant can clarify this?

Craig

    I was recently in Tokyo. About a quarter of the vending machines in the
    streets and in shopping centres and in large office buildings had beer
    in them. When walking around town, I frequently put a few yen into a
    machine on the street, pulled out a Suntori, popped the cork and
    slugged it there and then. It was hot outside.
    
    Don't think you can get away with that in the US! Actually, I don't kow
    if I was breaking any Japanese laws, but it seemed the natural thing to
    do....
    
    Ray.

    there is beer and wine available at our cafeterias here in Austria...
    Thats because beer is (by law) considered food, & wine has to go
    with food anyhow ( & the rather low quality of wine served in our
    canteens is used as antifreeze ). BTW beer here is also known as
    the only natural 'isotonic' beverage. 

    I believe the replies have the reasoning slightly backwards. I believe
    Europe and GIA allow alcoholic beverages on-site as the rules of
    and morales of Europe adn GIA are quite different than that of the U.S.
    
    And so even though DEC might have liked to extend its no alcohol rule
    across the pond, to be able to hire and keep employees in the
    localities, Dec has had to play by the local rules.
    
    Good, bad or indifferent, that's not for me to decide.
    
         jeff

    Interesting (and decidedly UN-scientific) observation:
    
    The part of Digital that allows beer/wine in the workplace accounts for
    over half of Digital's revenue, while using just about 3/4 as many
    employees to do it.  AND since that part of Digital also grants
    considerably more vacation time, it follows that Revenue/Man-Hour is
    significantly higher where our employees may imbibe than where they may
    not.   Rough calculations ($13B split 52% non-US, 48% US;  250 work
    days/yr US,  235 work days/yr non-US;   8 hr days) show me that the
    Revenue $/Man-hr in the US is about $44.00, while the Revenue $/man-hr
    in the alcohol-drinking Digital sites is about $65.00 -- a 33%
    increase in "productivity".
    
    	But of course, there couldn't possibly be a link, could there?
    
    -Don-

    RE: .14 This is exactly the kind of misuse of statistics that causes
    people to discount them.
    
    		Alfred

Re .14

Did you account for the fact that most of engineering is in the U.S.?

/john

  Re: Alcohol in Japan/DEC-Japan

  Lots of vending machines are all over Japan.  Some of them offers beer
  and/or whisky.  You can get a Suntory from one of them and drink on the
  street without breaking any Japanese law.  I doubt if ones at office have
  beer in them, though.  Most of Japanese firms don't permit beer at work,
  I believe.  The personnel policies of ours reglates work under the
  influence of alcohol.  I may not drink beer at office *without permission
  of DEC-Japan*.

  dolby

    Re: .15
    
    Alfred,
    
    At what percentage rate did you discount the statistics? Did you use
    the same rate for all items, or different rates? Did you get a
    different answer?
    
    (-:
    
    JK

    
    
      FWIW, when I was over in Valbonne last month, we were discussing
    this topic.  Somebody there told me that there used to be Beer
    in the vending machines as well as in the cafeteria,  but  the night 
    cleaning crews used to keep emptying the machines since it was
    cheaper than buying it at a store...  Don't know if this is true
    or not, but it sounded plausible at the time...
    
    
    						-al
    

Well, if you want beer at work in the U.S., maybe you should form an employee
task-force and petition to management, demanding the same rights that our
German employees have.

While you're at it, get us nine weeks of vacation and more holidays.

And the higher German salaries.

/john

> <<< Note 1120.19 by MUDHWK::LAWLER "Twelve Cylinders - NO LUCAS electrics." >>>
    
>      FWIW, when I was over in Valbonne last month, we were discussing
>    this topic.  Somebody there told me that there used to be Beer
>    in the vending machines as well as in the cafeteria,  but  the night 
>    cleaning crews used to keep emptying the machines since it was
>    cheaper than buying it at a store...  Don't know if this is true
>    or not, but it sounded plausible at the time...

I visited Valbonne a few years ago, and at that time the beer in the vending
machines was 1 franc (something between 15 and 20 US cents) for a ~300ml can.
I don't know what beer went for in stores there, but a dollar a six pack
would seem an attractive price to me.

The only apparent concession to (American) propriety was that the beer column
in the vending machine was unlabeled, so you had to know ahead of time
what your franc coin would deliver to you.

- tom]

    In Grand Britannia we don't have drink in the districts but the
    boys at Reading do have a bar!!
    
    On another note, I am a member of our local sports and social club.
    We cannot supply, or contribute to, booze at social events. This
    is a rigidly enforeced rule in our District but does cause some raised
    eyebrows.
    We obviously entertain customers with complementary drinks at company
    doos, it is an accepted business practice, but we cannot spend what is 
    in effect partly our own money (from our contributions) towards 
    "lubricating" a social function, with a few free drinks. We provide
    foods at the functions so why not wine and beer.
    
    Do other sports and social clubs members feel that a review is needed
    of the S&SC rules on this point?
    
    Does anyone know the real reason behind the ruling?

>    Does anyone know the real reason behind the ruling?


Don't know about outside the States, but there was a law passed a number of
years ago which put the supplier of liquor 'at fault' if the person doing
the drinking had an accident.  This effects bartenders, hosts/hostesses, or
any other 'entity' that supplies booze.

It was shortly after this law went into effect that Digital stopped freely
serving liquor at company functions.  When I got my ten year award (ten
years ago!) there were chapaigne (sp?) FOUNTAINS in the anteroom!  When
I got my fifteen year award we were served one small carafe of wine.

Betty

    I remember a wonderful cartoon that said it all.
    
    There was a farmer in the dock at a law court. The lawyer said to him:
    
    "So YOU'RE the farmer who grew the barley and sold it to the processor,
    who sold the malt to the brewer, who sold the beer to the distributer, who
    sold it to the bar, who sold it to the consumer........."
    
    Europe and parts of GIA prove that people can quite effectively be
    treated as adults with their own judgement on the matter of drinking.
    It doesn't need legislation. Of course, the throwbacks from 20's
    Prohibition will never agree.
    
    Ray

    Reading the various replies from European folks makes me think
    how very different our (Europe and North American) attitudes
    must be towards alcohol.
    
    We have it drilled into our heads 24 hours a day (here in
    Canada anyway) to drink responsibly, don't drink and drive,
    think about your kids you're leaving behind, don't need to
    drink to fit in, alcohol free bodies, etc etc etc.
    
    Drinking at lunchtime and then returning to work is
    DEFINITELY frowned upon in my experience.
    
    Jim
    

re.23:

>    On another note, I am a member of our local sports and social club.
>    We cannot supply, or contribute to, booze at social events. 

No such rule exists in the Digital Sports & Social Clubs I have belonged 
too. Where in the UK are you?

Dave.

>    < Note 1120.23 by JOCKEY::GEARYP "Up the Wolves" >
>                             -< S&SC and Alcohol >-
>
>    On another note, I am a member of our local sports and social club.
>    We cannot supply, or contribute to, booze at social events. This
>    is a rigidly enforeced rule in our District but does cause some raised
>    eyebrows.

    Re: Patrick's note above and .27 from Dave Kerrell...
    
    As the treasurer at Newmarket (UK) where Patrick is a committee
    member, and the person who is being pedantic about the rules (and
    presumably causing the "raised eyebrows") I want to set the record
    straight.
    
    UK Personnel Policies & Procedures
    Section 6.23 Company Support To Sports & Social Clubs
    Sub-section GUIDELINES

    NOT TO BE USED FOR...
    
    PROVISION OF CHEAP OR FREE ALCOHOL AT ANY EVENT (amongst others)
    
    Any review of the S&SC rules will have to be taken up with whoever
    is responsible for maintaining the UK Personnel Policies & Procedures
    manual.
    
    Jim Bourne
    S&SC Treasurer (Newmarket, UK)

    The world outside the U.S. may certainly be more tolerant of alcoholic
    beverages in the workplace and consumption of same in public, however,
    there is a major difference in the response to an intoxicated person.

    In the U.S. it is not unusual for a person to be convicted of driving
    under the influence several times and face nothing more than a fine. It
    is also not unheard of for a person to have been convicted of vehicular
    homicide and not have their drivers license revoked much less spend any
    time incarcerated. Get caught driving drunk, and God forbid you should
    have an accident and injure or kill someone while drunk, in any of 
    several European or Scandinavian countries. 

    re .all: I was in vacation so couldn't answer earlier (spent about 15%
    of my vacation days for 2 weeks in Italy..):
    
    The facility where I work in Munich (UFC) has only non-alcoholic beer
    in the vending machines. The other wing of the building (UFH, where the
    training center is) as well as all other locations in Munich have real
    beer (95% alcohol-free :-) in the machines. Beer is served in all
    cafeterias. The cost is ~60c for a bottle (0.5 l or ~1 pint). The
    more or less private fridges around the building also contain a fair
    selection of beer, wine, etc.
    
    I have no idea of how much the vending machine sales per person is; at
    least in the cafeteria, you see only maybe 10-15% of the people
    drinking beer with their meals, wine or something else almost
    non-existent.
    
    And although having a beer is considered absolutely normal there are of
    course limits: e.g. having one right in the morning or several with your
    meal might cause a few raised eyebrows. Besides, working under
    influence is legally forbidden.
    
    re driving: yes, the penalties are quite stiff in most Northen and
    Central European countries and starting to get more so in the Southern
    European countries. A first time offender will definitely loose his
    licence for 6-9 months in Germany, along with a fine of ~$1000 - 2000.
    Repeat offenders have a good chance of losing their licence for good.
    
    E.g. the annual DEC Munich family picnic (where alcohol is served) has
    a shuttle bus running to the location (whicht tends to change annually)
    from downtown Munich or nearest public transport, and people are
    encouraged to use it instead of their private cars. Other events
    usually take place on DEC premises where puiblic transport is readily
    available.

	I doubt that the U.S. regulations are so much based upon puritan
    mores or whatever as they are on the driving issue.  The way life is
    here in the corporate facilities of New England anyway is such that
    one needs to drive to get anywhere.  There is no such thing as public
    transportation in the Boston burbs (aside from the rarely-used and
    somewhat obscure van commuter pools).  As such, even for Digital events
    involving a bus to downtown, etc., there is still a certain amount of
    individual driving involved to get from home to the bus and back.

	I think that if instead we were located downtown or someplace where
    we could all mostly ride a train to work (as is the case in some U.S. 
    sales offices I have visited such as Chicago), then drinking at lunch
    or on the way home would not be such a big deal.  I often wonder whether
    life wasn't as little more civilized back in the days when your horse
    could do most of the driving while you enjoyed yourself on the way home.

				    -davo

    It's a liability question - if DEC condoned drinking, and
    an employee accidentally killed someone while under the
    influence, DEC could be held liable. Lawyers have wet dreams
    about such cases. By formally condemning alcohol use, DEC
    can say under those circumstances that the employee was in
    violation of company policy, and escape liability.

    I think .32 is probably right.  Anyhow, if a person is too drunk to
    drive safely, he/she is probably also too drunk to perform useful work
    productively as well.  Save the indulgence for after hours or days off.
    
    /Charlotte

    re .32
    
    Then it *is* a cultural issue.
    
    Most (?) places, if you get drunk and do damage, it's your fault.
    
    In the USA, it's apparently someone else's fault.
    
    [I don't understand why liability stops with the person who
     sold/gave you the beer.  Personally, I'd blame the farmer
     who grew the barley...]
    

 Re .32

 Well then, can't parties with alchohol be made by ticket only, and each
 ticket saying that Digital does not accept responsibility ?

 Talk about nanny legislation.

 Give it a few more years of this paranoia and car manufacturers
 will be held responsible for making fast cars rather than the
 individuals who drive them and cause accidents. 'Sorry officer
 that I was speeding, but legislation allowed the car to be made
 to travel at that speed, so blame the manufacturer for allowing
 the car to break the speed limit'


	Craig.

    re .33
    
    And another thing: there seems to be an implict assumption in here
    that "if there's beer at work, people will get drunk".   To judge 
    by the notes written from locations where they DO sell alcohol in
    DEC, that doesn't happen.
    
    If the problem that you want to avoid is drunken employees, make
    rules against drunken employees.  Or is that too obvious to work?

    re .35 and cars - it's been tried. Smith & Wesson gets sued
    *regularly* because someone gets hurt by one of their products.
    No :-)

    I'd say that drunken employees are considerably less threat to
    Digital's welfare than stupid employees.  Digital does a wonderful job 
    of avoiding the former.   The latter?  Hmmmm....
    
    -DM-

RE:.31, .32

The rules about liquor consumption here and at other companies such as IBM
predate both the ridiculous liability rulings and the current social
consciousness about drunk driving.


RE: .36

I don't think there's any assumption about drunkenness.  This thing is
completely a cultural bias.

--PSW

    re .39 re .36
    
    By "implicit assumption here" I meant "implicit assumption
    made by some respondents to this note" that the availability
    of beer means that people will get drunk.

      Why not offer non-alcoholic beers in the caf? Bud, Miller and others
    have found a new marketplace which is literally booming in the U.S. I
    believe that Becks has also entered the market.
    
      It seems that if people are looking for a particular taste, it can be
    accomodated without worrying the lawyers.

re .-1:

There may be a shortage of the stuff, now that it's being shipped to our
boys (and girls?) in Saudi Arabia.

    "It has come to our attention that some employees are imbibing in
    alcoholic beverages over the lunch hour and then calling on customers
    in the afternoon. In order to disguise the fact that they have been
    drinking, we have learned, the drink of choice appears to be vodka,
    which is harder to detect on the breath.
    
    Management requests that all employees engaged in drinking alcohol at
    lunch switch to something with a more potent smell, like scotch or gin.
    We would much rather have our clients know that you're a drunk than to
    think we hire stupid people."
    
    :^)
    
    /se

    I notice that the Jack Smith memo prohibiting the use of DEC moneys in
    purchasing bottled water and the Wall Street Journal did not prohibit
    the use of such moneys in purchasing bottled beer and USA Today.  Is
    there a message in this?
    
    Elliott

    Yes, pedantry is petty.
    
    
    /andy/

RE: .44

There was a clarification from Jack Smith's office.  The prohibition applies to
all on-site purchased beverages and to all periodical subscriptions.

--PSW

One wonders whether the prohibition on purchasing bottled water applies to
facilities such as HLO, where there is (claimed to be) a known health problem
with the local water.

While working there, every once in a while I would forget and use the coolers
connected to the water mains instead of the Belmont Springs bubblers, and have
to run to a Belmont Springs bubbler to wash out my mouth.

/john

	re .47:

>>>	every once in a while I would forget and use the coolers
>>>	connected to the water mains instead of the Belmont Springs bubblers,
>>>	and have to run to a Belmont Springs bubbler to wash out my mouth.

	Hey, wait a minute! Don't you guys have a Health and Safety Program
	over there? If so, how can it condone water coolers that dispense
	dangerous water? (Or is it a sophisticated scheme to eliminate
	those dumb enough to drink from them?)

	/Tom

    As far as I know this site (HLO) has its own wells.  I live within
    sight of this building, and my water at home is fine (unless you don't
    like the high manganese level - sometimes stains stuff blue), but the
    water in HLO has a distinct unpleasant taste, plus a high rust content. 
    There practically aren't any water fountains here anyhow - the nearest
    one I can think of is way over by the credit union, which is in the
    other building.  Anyhow, our area water machine is also the local
    refrigerator, and with everyone trying to stretch their lunch money
    these days, if you get in after quarter of nine, your lunch usually is
    going to not get refrigerated because the rest of us have filled the
    machine before you - so I hope they don't take away the water machine!
    
    /Charlotte                        

Re .49:

The excruciatingly detailed story of the wells at HL which was published in
"Mountaintop Views" (?) a few years ago stated that the wells were used solely
for process purposes - not for drinking water.
				/AHM

The way I remember the DVN broadcast, Jack Smith stated that the water had
been found to be safe at all sites in the Greater Maynard Area.  Please note
that me memory has been known to be faulty (no parity bits), and that "safe"
doesn't mean that you'd want to drink it.  BTW, I drink the water at ZKO
with no complaint, although others avoid it.  My taste buds have been ruined
since I moved from NYC to MA.

Unless, I'm mistaken, Charlotte, there are water fountains right by the
restrooms around the corner from the office area you're in.  Those are the
ones I would occasionally accidentally take a sip from.

The fountains at ZKO are not as sweet-tasting as New York City water, but
they are drastically better than HLO (spit-spit).

/john