Conference 7.286::digital

    I would think that slowing production would be warranted.  Anything
    else sounds like rather foolish extremism.  I can't imagine anyone
    expecting to penetrate a market where the customer has to shell out six
    digits in the short time we've been at it.  
    
    Dick B.

    
    It would help to have a mainframe that supported more than 256 users
    running ULTRIX.
    
    -Ed
    

    So what is the life cycle of any product?  CR

    
    .........it has to reach childhood first.
    
    

    Re: Note 1619.1<< "I can't imagine anyone expecting to penetrate a
    	market where the customer has to shell out six digits in the short
    	time we've been at it."
    
    Well, your company just bet the farm on it!
    
    Looks like sudden infant death symdrome to me.
    

    From the outset, it's been my belief that the 9000 venture was
    predicated on a totally incorrect asumption:  that there is a
    "mainframe market" defined by machine speed and I.O throughput.  The
    only significant mainframe market that I'm aware of also requires the
    ability to run MVS (i.e., IBM 360/370 architecture).  There's really no
    way you're going to penetrate THAT market with a VAX.
    
    
    -dave

    re a couple...I fear the price is more in the 7 digit range.  But
    on expected life cycle....well, I really expected more than a year.
    I've seen this inability to tolerate a sales cycle of longer than
    17 minutes bring us to our knees before.  Apparently, we will never
    learn.
    
    Read in the paper where IBM sold 11(!!!) of their new mainframes to
    Sears in one fell swoop.  Betcha the groundwork started on that sale
    three years ago.....and such a commission.  I remember reading several
    years ago where Cray salesmen were making 250-300K a year and the cycle
    almost always exceeded two years.  Maybe a heavily commissioned sales
    force for mainframes would have helped.

    ...oh no Mr.Bill, here comes the commissioned sale force vs the
    salaried sales force thing again.
     
    ...time to hide.
    
    

    re: .7
    
    Cray research is just a copule of miles down the road from our offices
    here in Bloomington, MN. I visited there a couple of weeks ago to meet
    with a couple of ex-DECies who now work there. Neither are salepersons
    but they did express great relief at getting "out from under the
    fanatical sell one TODAY" attitude. Also, selling machines that are
    hugely expensive and take time and investment (ie. risk) that our
    current metric structures will not support. I don't blame sales people
    for not wanting to take the time to sell them. They could go out the
    door in the process of trying.
    
    Gene.
    
    PS. Perhaps the 9000 people should fund their own sales people and hang
    a metric structure on them more compatible with the sales cycle of
    their product. 
    
    Just an idea.
    

>    PS. Perhaps the 9000 people should fund their own sales people and hang
>    a metric structure on them more compatible with the sales cycle of
>    their product. 

What 9000 people? I'm down here in MRO (where ISB used to be) and most of
the people I know in MRO1, those that are left, won't even admit to having
any association with the 9000. And if you are in VSS, I believe it is
career-limiting to mention the 9000 except in obituaries.

It wouldn't be so bad if we weren't trying to kill the 9000 ourselves from
the inside. By explicit design, by vague memos from Vice Presidents, and
even by competition from as yet unannounced and unavailable products, We,
Digital, have killed the VAX 9000 ourselves and denied any future to it.

  "Digital has it now, but, we would prefer if you wait until tomorrow..."

    
    
       People perform based on how they are measured. If you are given a
    goal of "X" million, you work to bring in "X" million. If you get 50%
    of your salary as a base and A LOT more if you exceed those goals, you
    will exceed those goals. 
       The people I've worked with that have come from other "vendors", the
    ones that have the "C" word as an insentive, tell both the good and bad
    sides of the story. One thing they have all said is they never looked
    at it as extra $$, it was the new boat, the new deck for the house, the
    new car for the S.O., etc. An interesting way of looking at life.
       An then on the down side, when you're making 6 figures for a few
    years yo get use to that life style. When things don't go so well, it's
    real tough, just ask any WANG rep.
    
    
    
                                                  Phil...

    ref .-1
    
    may be this a side comment, but if one makes 6 figure income for few
    years and they still need to work after that, something is wrong
    somewhere !
    
    if my yearly income in the 6 figure i'll work for two weeks (ok may be
    three) and retire .
    
    ..back to VAX9000 talk..

    Wait till we take the wraps off of the Vax 6000-1200 then Big Blue will
    be shaking in there pin striped suits. Cruising at a 280 vups rating
    with 500 users running combo Operating Systems of Ultrix, Vms and MVS
    simultaneously PLUS it is fault tolerant, Has memory of 10 Terabytes
    and 220 giga bytes of onboard storage. BOY will Big Blue's eyes bulge
    out then. The new slogan will be " Digital Can Have It Anyway It Wants
    To". Boy just wait we'll show them a thing or two, who do they think
    they are messing with anyway.

>                     <<< Note 1619.13 by EJOVAX::JFARLEY >>>
>                   -< Wait, Alpha-Beta is coming soon!!!!!! >-

	Wow!  Great to hear about futures !

	What will happen with this (dream) machine is the following:

	1) A corporate climber product manager will force it out
	   the door with multiple firmware/microcode bugs.

	2) It will only run 5 hours before crashing and will stomp
	   the customers' system disks.

	3) A hue and cry will go up.  

	4) Product manager leaves, finds new project ( VAX 99,000,000 ).

	5) Millions are spent on field upgrades, microcode fixes,
	   ECOs, etc.

	6) Product running smoothly in two years, at which time
	   the average home PC will be 33% faster, and cost $999.95
	   at BizMart, and only three customers still own 'em.

	Steve H

    RE: .10
    
    Kindof depressing. I know a lot of people poured their heart out in
    various projects - only to be viewed as losers. Very unfair for them.

    Yeh, my son-in-law "poured his heart out" on the VAX 9000 for three
    years.  He was the designer of the Multi-Chip Unit.  After 17 years
    and because he was "tainted" with the 9000 virus he was unable to
    get another job in DEC.  His last day was Sep 27.  He was contacted
    by a head-hunter immediately and is now Director of Engineering for
    a connectors firm in Richmond.
    
    Letting him go is the singularly most stupid thing I've ever seen
    Digital do.  We do not deserve to succeed.

    re 16.
    
    I agree.  This company is not trying to be technicallky successful.
    Management doesn't know how.  The only way this company will survive is
    to get rid of ALL the senior management.  The problems with this
    company is very apparent by the number of replies to note 1616. 
    Touchie-feely is all management knows.
    
    re .13  If you think we can build a machine that will run MVS AND be
    able to maintain it, I know where there is a bridge for sale you may
    want:)

    re: .13
    
    there is not(IMHO) enough patience or vision to bring something
    this good to the marketplace....MBA's and accounts look at short
    term profit "only..."
    
    of course the company that pulls it off (OSF maybe?) will have a
    path beaten to their door for at least 10 years....

    
    Re: last few
    
    Anyone know how Amdahl is doing these days?
    
    -Ed
    

All I know is that at the corporate computer center for the $18B company I 
support there are nothing but Amdahl mainframes. IBM hardware is in the 
minority (even our installed base of VAXes beats them out).

One of the serious problems we have is that we have no idea of how to be a 
"mainframe-class" vendor. Amdahl has 4-5 people onsite constantly (to the 
customer they appear free of charge, but I'm sure its bundled in the 
hardware/maintenance costs).

On the other hand, we're nickel-and-diming the customer for $8K/year to keep 
our Customer Service Engineer onsite (we're trying to charge $48K/year for the 
resident above and beyond the ~$40K/month the customer spends on normal 
contracts). We're probably not doing anyting different than Amdahl (and are 
probably less costly), but the way we do it gives the customer the impression 
that they have to pay for every little thing.

The VAX installation is a cluster made up of a 9410, 6440 and 8820. The
workload we moved from another 6440 (where the response time and cpu 
utilization was reasonable) to the 9410 (where the cpu is redlined). One of 
the best things we've done is provide the SIP where we can bring in 
performance experts and other consultants to assist the customer, without 
charging them for it as a separate line item!. Its a good start, 
but we're a far cry from our competition (and it ain't BIG BLUE!).

Jim

    - We're not a mainframe vendor
    - We're not a PC vendor
    - We're not competitive in the workstation/server business (customers
      leaving us in droves for Sun, HP, etc.)
    - We're not a software company
    - We ARE a minicomputer company; a market which will soon cease to
      exist
    
    	Gee, I wonder why we're not making any money.

    
    Correction, we are a VMS minicomputer company.  There is a HUGE
    market for UNIX minis (just look at Pyramid & Sequent etc)
    
    I really get the feeling we are ignoring this market to protect
    VAX sales.
    
    JMHO.
    
    -Ed
    

    	Hi All! From beautiful Cupertino, Ca. 
    
    Currently working on HDSC's for the VAX 9000. It's a great Mainframe.
    Trust me! I know. Ask DATAMATION. Sales will pick up. Have a little
    faith in our people...
    
                              Darren
    

    What are you smokin' out there in la-la-land {:^).  Seriously, there
    are only two orders for Q2, and reportedly 60! cancellations.  Besides,
    the engineering organization has ceased to exist.
    
    ....hey, I just had an idea.....maybe the 700 sales and sales support
    people getting laid off today, could be reorg'd into a special sales
    force just for 9000's.  Yeh, we could call it ....let's see.... I've
    got it!!!  The TARGET SALES FORCE!!!  Oh, its been done already??  Oh
    well.

I thought the 9000 became a dinosaur because two of our latest
65xx-whatever systems running as a pair did as well as the 9000... with
obvious cost difference.

Lee

    re .23
    

    Yes, what are you smoking??? Please don't judge the 9000 by it's HDSC
    -- especially when the HDSC has a pretty good track record! The system
    itself abounds with interconnectivety problems; too many cables!
    
    For the record, I work at the Burlington Vermont manufacturing facility
    which manufactures the 9000.
    
    It's first death knell was when it was released too late in a slowing 
    economy. It's second when I start hearing things like it needs better
    software!
    
    Let's just say it would have made a great mainframe, but now it makes a
    better boat anchor.
    
    Last year at this time we shipped approx. 60 systems to customers, as
    for right now, we have shipped 9 systems, next quarter looks a bleak
    with (as far as I know) 7 new orders (if that) and the rest refurbs.
    
    And believe me, I have a lot of faith in our people, let's hope all of
    us can help out and turn the company around!
    
    
    					Jim.

    
    Do the moderators feel comfortable with these ship numbers in a public
    domain. I'd hate to see 1619.* reprinted in WSJ tomorrow 8-(
    
    simon

    re -1 ship numbers
    
    That ain't nuthin.  Check out the NODEMO::MARKETING conference.
    I don't know the rules for cross-posting. It's Note 1665.  
    
    Apparently Electronic News has a wonderful article 
    listing all of DEC's new products
    out to '94 including all their "super secret" code names.
    
    Better yet, if you can get the magazine, it is ...
    
    >Electronic News, September 2, 1991, Data Topics, p.11
    
    Mark
    
    

RE: .24

You're a fine one to talk about la-la land.  

--PSW