Conference 7.286::digital

    Whatever happened to DECjobmatch?

Corporate Personnel does seem to be working on this.

In fact, just last week I got a cold call from someone who had pulled all
Principal Software Engineers with a status of "interviewing" out of the
system and was calling them.

I had accepted a new job -- and in fact, I was somewhat annoyed at getting
the call, since if I had not been offered/accepted that particular job I
was not "on the market."

I had a long talk with the person in Corporate Personnel Systems responsible
for the system.  My main suggestion was that the field be encoded differently,
so that someone who went on an interview because of a specific req was not
put in the same status as someone in .0's situation.

The system has quite a bit of potential.  However, local personnel groups
are unwilling to let employees have direct access to the system (as was the
design) because of a fear of people constantly offering themselves for sale.

/john

    RE: .1
    
    TESS (Total Employment Staffing System) is the system used internally
    by Corporate Personnel for the last 6+ years by recruiters to enter
    applicants, requisitions, interviews, and offers.  DECjobmatch is the
    product that was created by changing TESS to not use the Digital rules
    for employment. 
    
    TESS is available for use by employees looking for jobs at Job Resource
    Centers.  One is in the Mill (MLO3-4/A11 223-6488).  Look under
    Personnel in the phone book for others.
                                                                 
    RE: .2 
    
    TESS has a function that searches for all applicants that have NOT
    accepted an offer.  If your name came up and you had already accepted
    an offer (but your recruiter had failed to enter it into the system),
    it is not the system's fault.  Any database is only as good as the
    data being entered. 
    
    Patti
    
    

    And is there a Job Resource Center in East Cupcake?   ARRRRRGH!
    
    While looking under 'Personnel'  cruise to page 298 and look at
    the last entry under R.   It is nearby and appropriate :^).

    As long as I'm in this cynical mood, how about VTX Jobs Book?  Ever
    see extinct entries in it?   Ever see an entry that ended in mid
    sentance?    It's a joke!
    
    Does anyone who has been a seeker or seekee have experience with
    OASS::JOBS?   Is it effective?

>Is OASS::JOBS effective?

I used it two years ago, and got a large number of requests to come for
interviews.  I ended up taking a job as a result.  Although it was a
fairly good match, it was not the job I really wanted -- that job was
only just created, and I have it now.  OASS::JOBS would not have helped
this time.

Whether OASS::JOBS will be effective for you really depends on whether
the particular organizations you are matched for use it for advertising
positions and/or looking for candidates.

/john

    TESS IS an on-line system and available to EVERY recruiter in the
    U.S.  Contact your local recruiter.  Many have guest accounts for
    you to use TESS for searching for open jobs.  
    
    Patti
     

    re: JOBS notes, that's how I got a call on my current job. A day
    or so prior to the req being posted. My resume read like the req.
    before I'd even seen it! Definite match.
    
    re: VTX Jobs
    
    VTX jobs does an extract of reqs entered into TESS. The editing
    functions on TESS are virtually nonexistent, thus you end up with
    a lot of poorly written (typos et al) reqs. 
    
    re TESS:
    
    As stated previously the purpose of TESS was to do just what everyone's
    been requesting, to match up the employee seekers with the job hunters.
    Hard to believe, but that is not what happens. In order to find matches,
    both requisition and applicants need to be skill coded. Then TESS
    looks for matches based on those skill codes. One of the major reasons
    that TESS does not do it's intended job is because many employment
    folks are not doing theirs. Skill codes are not used consistently
    on both areas, if they are even used at all. 
    
    TESS had become a place to log Reqs so that they will appear on
    the jobs book, many of the employment people feel that once they've
    done that they have done their job. It is the rare few that go beyond
    that and really do put the effort out to match skills and requirements.
    Why do you think we still do so much hiring from the outside? (I
    think any hiring is relatively to much at this time). It is because
    recruiters are to lazy to look for matches from within. They never
    laid the ground work, by skill coding applicants, so when a need
    does come up they have no way of searching. 
    
    There needs to be some accountability on the part of the Employment
    Managers. They need to drive the issue home with the recruiters.
    Digital has a big need to use their current resources, those resources
    are not only the people but also the systems/software that we have
    developed.
    
    The Catch-22 now is that most of employment feels that they needn't
    learn to use TESS correctly, after all it "should" be due to "go away"
    in a few years. Maybe the next system can spoon feed them there
    jobs.
    
    Gail

    RE: .8
    
    I have to agree with everything said in .8.    My observation is
    that the recruiting process goes something like this.....
    
    The hiring manager generates a requisition and submits it to personnel,
    then seeks applicants through their network and only talks to
    personnel again once a candidate is 'bagged'.
    
    The job seeker uses VTX to get a flavor for where the action is,
    then seeks a job by using their network and only talks to personnel
    when the job is 'bagged'.
    
    My own experience is that recruiters are simply not part of the
    main line process AT ALL.  Unfortunately, until you realize this,
    a lot of time is wasted and much opportunity is lost.   Real fit
    is more a function of intertwined networks than any purposeful
    attempt to find the absolute best candidate.    
    
    One highly probable result, it would seem, is the perpetuation of
    the 'old boy network' ad naseum; not a really good way to infuse
    change into a stagnant organization.
    

    
    Ref: .0
    
    Another suggestion, instead of telling someone who finds his or her job
    eliminated to go find a new job, would be to have them be told to "Go
    CREATE yourself a new job."
    
    I submit that 125,000 employees could outline at least one job
    function, NOT currently being done, that when done WOULD have a
    positive impact on building a more successful Digital.
    
    As a suggestion, how about Corporate Employee Relations creating a
    database into which every employee would be encouraged to input such a
    new job function and description, not currently being done, that would
    have such an impact.
    
    Senior management could then select from those new suggested jobs
    desirable ones to actually start, and then could place available
    personnel needing new jobs into them!  Isn't this an intelligent way to
    better utilize "our most important asset - our people" rather than
    leaving them to their own devices to find a new job?
    
    In addition, management could encourage those needing new jobs, to
    actually CREATE a new job for themselves, submitting their own proposal
    on where they see they might contribute, perhaps EVEN BETTER, to a more
    successful Digital.
    
    As my suggestion for a new job function, I suggest Field Marketing
    Auditors.  This job would be where Digital employees visit Customer
    accounts, current and lost, and who interview decision-makers and all
    possible end-users, conducting open-ended sensing to determine customer
    likes, dislikes, wants and suggestions, from which Digital could derive
    after analysis of the data, proactive recommended actions, which when
    implemented, would lead to GREATER customer satisfaction with the
    result that customers would be MORE inclined to buy from Digital, and
    to pay premium prices, perceiving from our changes, that we would
    better satisfy their wants, and in with all actions actually better
    satisfying them and thus providing premium added-values, would be
    inclined to paying us premium prices.  With thousands of accounts and
    an estimated 6,000,000 end-users, there could easily be hundreds
    effectively utilized as Field Marketing Auditors.
    

    .0> Certainly the new Career Opportunity Days is a compassionate
    .0> action to utilize the intelligence, experience and enthusiasm
    .0> of Digital employees who now are available for new work.
    
    My experience with "Career Days II":
    
    I carried a briefcase and price book for 11 solid years (for DEC)
    and am generally considered to be a good sales person.  For the
    most part I stopped counting the DEC-100s a long time ago.  In that
    selling is my first passion, and, I was of the impression that DEC
    needed good experienced sales people I submitted my resume to seven
    different areas for Career Days II.
    
    As of yesterday I had not received a single indication that anyone
    even wanted to talk to me during the 9-10-11 of January...so...I
    called the 'hot line' to see if my resume had even gone out to the
    different areas....I'm selfish and naive... I thought 11 years
    of successful DECselling would be of some value to the field.
    
    "Well, there were some break downs in the system so I suggest that
    you simply call all of the area employment managers and work directly
    with them".

    OK...I called three of the area employment managers (offices), I
    stopped at three..."just send us your resume and we'll see *if* we
    can put it into the queue".  There was no way that they could even
    tell me if they had received my resume.  Also, I'm "past the deadline"
    for submitting my resume so "don't expect to hear anything".
    
    I thought that there was a real "need" in the field?  I know that
    I could contribute to the coffers of Digital by being in a sales
    capacity ... but ... "go find yourself a new job" is certainly the
    appropriate phrase.
    
    I'm sitting here right now trying to decide if I should continue
    to "fight the system" for what I know deep in my heart is right,
    or, just continue where I am now ... I don't *have* to leave, but,
    just feel that my contribution would be greater in the field.
    
    Oh well...what's new....what would you do?
    
    								Jerry

	What would I do?  If I was that anxious to get back in the field, I'd
start calling every District Sales Manager I could find a phone number for, and
ask THEM!  They are going to wield a tremendous amount of power in the not very
distant future, and if they need you, they will find a way to get you!

	And best wishes on getting back to where the "action" is!

	If I wasn't all that frustrated yet I'd take the advice someone else
	gave and start mailing resume's and calling targeted sales managers.

	On the other hand if I was upset and wanted to see the process fixed
	rather than gotten around I would try and contact Dave Grainger. It
	would appear to me that he wants the process to work and has the
	power to demand changes. Call or write him and let him know how it's
	working (or not).

	I am more and more convinced that a lot of real world conditions
	are not known about high up. I also believe that there are a lot
	of mid-level managers who prefer it that way.

			Alfred

    Re: Note 993.15 by CVG::THOMPSON

>	On the other hand if I was upset and wanted to see the process fixed
>	rather than gotten around I would try and contact Dave Grainger. 
    
    From personal knowledge, I would like to warn those who might consider
    going directly to upper management with a matter of concern. It can be
    career limiting. The layers of management between you and them are
    often very resentful of such actions, and upper management might or
    might correct the issue you bring to them, but they are not likely to
    protect you from the results of resentment you might generate. 
    
    A word to the wise: proceed with caution.
    

    .12 is correct:
    
    Pick a Sales District you want to work in and try to market yourself to
    the DM and his/her Sales Unit Managers. That's the most direct route.
    They can say "yes" and push the other components into action.
    
    /se
    

       RE: .16
       
       	But I get the impression that Dave Grainger WANTS to hear about
       this sort of stuff???!!!
       
       	Maybe it's time, at times, to go right to the person who holds the
       whole ball of wax and have a chat.
       
       	FWIW, I agree with Alfred. I am really beginning to think that
       there is something in the mid-level that is keeping the upper level
       from knowing what is going on. We're all out of touch and IMHO,
       it's gonna hit us soon in a big way.
       
       							mike

    Re: Note 993.18 by STAR::MFOLEY

>      	But I get the impression that Dave Grainger WANTS to hear about
>      this sort of stuff???!!!

    Maybe he does and maybe he doesn't. But even if he does, he's likely to
    say "thank you very much" and be done with you, while you then still
    have to live with your local management that may be slow in forgetting
    that you went over their heads to do something that possibly made them
    look bad or feel stupid. 
    
    If you must go to the top, then by all means, do it. I'm just saying
    that I've seen it bite people before, and I see no guarantees in place
    that it won't continue to do so. 

re .11

Cynicism on.

To paraphrase  Tom  Peters,  "If  you  want to get a job, DO NOT go through any
Personnel organization; Personnel is a hinderance to the hiring process"

I have never been  able  to  figure out what their "real agendas" are, but they
ARE NOT to see you  improve your employment situation; your spouse, your mother,
your kids, maybe - but NOT personnel.

Far too  many resumes sit in a pile, the longer they are there, the less chance
they will get  considered.    Likely,  the  resume  will  get  "screened"  by a
Personnel Person who has absolutely NO technical background (often, very little
formal training in "Personnel") and, therefore, cannot possibly identify likely
candidates who just were not clear enough in stating their qualifications.

If you want a specific job, get to the Hiring Manager;  the person who actually
will make the decision.

Then again, do the right thing,  go through personnel, keep them employed, fall
through the cracks, etc.

Cynicism off.

Dave

    re: 16
    
    I believe there is an announcement in here about the MRC (?)
    mumble Resource Center. It was ANNOUNCED by Dave Grainger to
    look into "RED TAPE" type issues. Sorry, I can't remember the
    note number.
    
    pat

    To those who propose goiong right to the hiring manager.......
    
    How do you get that person's name in a situation where the hiring
    group is an unknown entity to you?    The TESS/VTX JOBS route will
    only get you a recruiter's name.
    
    I think the single greatest change we could make to these systems
    is to replace the block on the requisition that says 'recruiter',
    to 'manager'.   The way it is now, that one little block on the
    form is the single biggest roadblock to successful staffing.
    
    Even when you see a posted req. on a bulletin board, the hiring
    manager is covered with whiteout.   Why?

    Hey, everybody, the way to get directly to the group you're interested
    in is OASS::JOBS [at least if you want *my* group :') - we have  three
    official open SwEng recs, and several others pending].  I know 'cause I
    am the contact person for my group, and I post in JOBS directly as soon
    as I have a signed, approved rec.  I control the text, I give a much
    more complete description of the job, and the sentences don't end in
    the middle (at least, I didn't mean them to!).
    
    My biggest problem is, where are all you software engineers who are
    looking for a job???  I get nada from my recruiter, but I don't get a
    whole lot from JOBS either.  Have a look!

    re: .23
    
    You might be an exception.   I've used JOBS twice and both times
    the poster did NOT have approved requisitions.   They were on
    fishing expeditions because they were GOING to have opportunities.
    
    Most likely they knew they had better get a jump on the broken
    recruiting system.

re                      <<< Note 993.22 by ISLNDS::BAHLIN >>>
                         -< How do you get the name? >-

You call  the  Recruiter  (probably  get  a  secretary)  and ask for the Hiring
Manager's name for  req  # nnnnn.  You will be given a run around, you may even
be told that they  cannot  give  out  that information.  Then, tell that person
that you KNOW that they must  give  out  the information when you ask (it is in
their procedures).  Usually, that is enough;    when  not,  ask to speak to the
group  Manager and repeat above.  Seldom, if  ever,  will  you need to do that.

Dave

	Dave, could you post the location of that policy, ie, page, section,
paragraph #, etc?  That would seem to be a conversation-stopper, if the person
on the other end had ANY sense!

re .26

No, wish  I  could.  It has been, literally, years since I read the policy.  It
was/is not in the "orange book", but was a "personnel dept" policy.  However, I
know of two employees, working  in different areas than mine who have needed to
use that comment within the last 6 months.  In both cases, the Hiring Manager's
name was immediately given.

Dave

    Why isn't the hiring Manager name on VTX?
    
    Why isn't the hiring Manager name on bulletin boards?
    
    Why is there a no value added layer of bureaucracy added to the
    process?

    Jerry,
    
    I was given a stack of resumes a FOOT tall, from which I was supposed
    to select a list of candidates for Sales Support positions I have
    or will shortly have open.  There were easily 1200 or so resumes.
    They were in no alphabetical or any other order, as near as I could
    tell.  The NYA  employment manager, who lives in my office, told
    me that due to some snafu's, not all of the resumes received  were
    forwarded to the hiring managers.  We were also told to expect about
    4,000 "walk-ins" at COD next week.
    
    BTW, out of the 1200 resumes, we were able to find about 30 we were
    interested in interviewing.  Most applicants have no sales or service
    background whatsoever, so you have to read creatively between the
    lines to pick out those who might make good development projects.
    Given this, I contend that if your resume had been in the pile,
    you would have been inundated with calls, as it would have stood
    out like a sore thumb.  The NYA alone is sending 70 people to COD
    II to recruit, most of which are sales managers.
    
    Al
    

    >    Why isn't the hiring Manager name on VTX?
    It is the recruiters job to screen the applicants and sent the best
    qualified applicants to the hiring manager, thus saving that person
    time to do his/her real job.
    
        
   > Why isn't the hiring Manager name on bulletin boards?
    Same as above
    
   > Why is there a no value added layer of bureaucracy added to the
    >process?
    
    Because the above doesn't happen in real life. Most recruiting offices
    are no more than resume routing stops. If you indicate the Req number
    you are interested in, your resume will usually get forwarded, no
    screening. If you don't get a number on it, someone may look at it
    based on current needs...or it may sit around till someone else
    gets the job. 
    
    I agree the system does not work as is. The idea of how it should
    work is a good one. In practice it's nothing more than red tape.


    Gail

    re: .30   Broken process
    
    I agree ( I just wanted someone else to say it :^) ).    I think
    it is pathetic that, in a time when the corporate goal is to retrain
    and relocate thousands, we have apparently not spent a dime on the
    effort.
    
    If, as I am hearing, hiring managers are getting no respondents
    and job seekers are getting no responses, the need for screening
    and preselection is zero.   If this is true, then the need for
    screeners and selectors is also zero.
    
    Here is a suggestion......
    
    Today we hire in two broad categories; hire people WITH the skills
    you need or hire people who can LEARN the skills you need.  Note
    that in both categories the hiring organization assumes all risk.
    If we are trying to radically restructure the company, it is highly
    unlikely that the most desirable candidates (who already have the
    requisite skills) exist internally in sufficient numbers to support
    radical restructuring.   This, not so astounding, conclusion might
    account for the complaints that nobody responds to requisitions.
    
    A hiring manager though, will always seek to hire from the 'already
    skilled' pool because it is the path of least risk (if the person
    doesn't work out one can always claim to have been duped).  The
    category of 'trainable' candidates is fraught with great risk for
    the hiring manager because not only might the candidate prove to
    be not so trainable, the manager can't claim to have been duped.
    So, the manager ends up with egg on his/her face, an open position 
    plus an albatross to get rid of.
    
    To counter this, why not train first and hire second?   What I mean
    by this is that people who declare themselves to be looking for
    a job get training appropriate to their career choice, paid for
    centrally, or maybe even by their outgoing cost center.   During
    training, two things happen; ongoing aptitude assessment by the
    instructor/s and a look by the trainee at whether they like the
    new work or not.
    
    By doing this, the company gets a ready pool of people with the
    skills inventory we claim to need.   What we do now is throw these
    people into a pool where the predominant skills are the skills we
    no longer need.  Then we deliberately task them to find a job using
    a broken process.   At the same time we are asking the hiring manager
    to hire only from what to them must surely be perceived as the riskiest
    category of candidate.  Is it any wonder that we all continue to go
    around the process?

><<< Note 993.26 by YUPPIE::COLE "Now is the time for ACTION, not proposals!" >>>
>                                  -< RE: .25 >-
>
>	Dave, could you post the location of that policy, ie, page, section,
>paragraph #, etc?  That would seem to be a conversation-stopper, if the person
>on the other end had ANY sense!


I knew I'd find the references sometime...

From the "Orange Book", Section 2.05 (VTX ORANGEBOOK, as well)

Under "Employee Responsibilities"...

 (B)  Gather information about other groups, jobs, functions, etc.
      and utilize managers and Personnel as resources in accessing



Under "Employment Specialist Responsibilities"...

 (C)  Have and communicate current information on open, budgeted req-
      uisitions and know skills and experience required for those jobs.


and


 (E)  Treat internal candidates with the same consideration given to
      external candidates:
       - respond by phone or letter to resumes within two weeks.
       - provide information on available positions.
       - set up interviews.

    Here's a tale of frustration.   Last week I received a form letter
    (electronic mail) saying that my COD II resume submission was reviewed
    and there was no scheduled interview at this time etc, etc..  The
    very same evening I got home and found an urgent message on my answering
    machine requesting me to call immediately the next day because there
    was a foul up and I really was supposed to be interviewed.   I made
    the call.
    
    The person that I reached (after 4 attempts) simply gave me another 
    number to call, which I did.  This person didn't know a thing about 
    it so I had to recall the first person.   I needed to get a code
    from the first person then recall the second to make an interview
    appointment.   All of this I finally accomplished by about 10:00
    (started promptly at 8:00).
    
    Today, I went to my 3:30 appointment at 3:00 (cautious by now).
    
    "Appointment?  You don't seem to be on the list for an appointment.
    Are you sure?    We're running a little slow.   Could you wait until
    5:00?"
    
    
    
    I remember blasting a noter in here not too long ago for suggesting
    that people were right to bail out of DEC because of the salary
    freeze.   I feel silly now for that.  My apologies.

    My frustration is at an all time high.

    My belief that we are going to make it is at an all time low.   
    
    I'm an optimist.    

    I wonder if the recruiting system would be improved if a few recruiters
    were made to find a job.  (As an exercise, of course.)
    
    Mike

    Ref: 993.34
    
    Wouldn't a universal database of all employees, with those looking, and
    those re-deployable, having an extra code, accessible by all managers,
    eliminate the need for recruiters altogether?
    

    re: .-1
    
    Be serious.  The way things are going right now, by the time something
    of that scale is in place, we'll be in chapter 11.
    
    How about a little more realism, like direct feedback to upper
    management that a lot of the wrinkles still need some serious
    ironing...
    
    Sort of a caveat to the 'prime directive': "Do the right thing - in our
    lifetime."
    
    tim
    

    re: .36   Do The Right Thing - In Our Lifetime
    
    I love it.....should be a poster for the 90's

    re: .35
    Which is why you will never see such a thing.  Someones kingdom
    would have to close down.   
    
    Mike

    re: .35
    It would be VERY difficult to get agreement to hold this type of
    data on a database - in some countries this could very well be
    illegal !.
    
    Joe

re .39:

I don't think it helps any to sit on our butts and think of reasons why we 
might not be able to do something.

1. Inclusion on a recruitment database could be by employee choice.
2. Countries that can not participate for legal reasons could also be excluded 
   but I can't think of any given (1).

Dave.

    re .40: Depending on the law in any individual country, personal
    consent may or may not be enough. Here in Germany, I don't hink it
    would be enough (but I'm not a lawyer).
    

    Where did you ever read that its policy to give out hiring manager's
    names if it is requested?  That's the first I've ever heard of it and I
    have been in the employment group for almost 4 years now.  Maybe its a
    policy in your specific site, however, is not a corporate policy.
    
    This is interesting....

RE: Note 993.11 ABACUS::BEELER 
    -< What would you do? >-

What follows is a  rather  long,  but,  VERY  IMPORTANT  update  on  the
situation  that  was referenced in the above note - please take the time
to read it...if you have any questions, send me mail or call me:

I had decided to simply "ignore" COD and use my own internal contacts to
try  to  get back to the field.  During the second day (of the three day
event) I was just leaving a meeting at MRO3 (where COD was  being  held)
when  I  was  stopped  by  a  friend  who  was participating in COD.  He
inquired as to how I was doing with interviews.

I told him that I had not received any response from the  COD  people  I
naturally  assumed  that  perhaps I did not have the qualifications that
they were looking  for,  after  all,  there  was  no  reference  in  the
"announcement"  that  people  of the Sales Unit Manager/ Sales Executive
level were being solicited.

Incredulous, he INSISTED that I march myself into the registration area,
register,  and  bring  my  resume to distribute as a "walk in" the next,
(final) day of COD.  The people  at  the  registration  desk  were  VERY
informative,  and, made it crystal clear that I should register and come
back the next day with my resume.  "Yes", there were some holes  in  the
system,  "yes",  there  was  some misinformation given to the "hotline",
"yes", there was an understandable  misconception  that  people  of  the
Sales Unit Manager/Sales Exec were not being solicited, "yes" there were
some logistics problems.

Never once was there even the slightest hint of a "defensive" character.
They  wanted  to  know  what went wrong so that they could fix it on the
next COD event.  They were genuinely apologetic and very  interested  in
my  perceptions and problems.  I've been around DEC for 13 years and can
smell "BS" about 100 miles off, but, there was not the slightest hit  of
it  in  this  case.  These people were genuinely concerned, and, adamant
about my returning the next day with my resume.

I returned the next day, 10 copies of my resume in hand, and went to one
of  the  area  desks  and  asked if they were looking for anyone with my
background.  "Yes, you need to talk to Mr.  X....  ".  Well, Mr.   X  (I
won't  use  any names here) and I talked for about 5 minutes right there
in the hussle and bustle of the main floor.  He invited me back  to  the
table  and  told the administrative people to "make sure he has an offer
letter before he leaves here".  The most exciting thing was  the  simple
fact that the position he was offering me could not have been better had
I taken DAYS to describe what I wanted to do - it was a DREAM COME TRUE!

While I was talking to Mr.  X, Mr.  Y was listening ...  on the way out,
Mr.  Y asked "where would like to live?".  Without batting an eye I said
"Hicksville" (again, names will not be used).  He said, "Let's talk".  I
talked with three other people in this area - they extended an offer for
a position that is, again, different  in  flavor,  but,  a  dream  of  a
position.

Now that I'm (literally) in a state of euphoria, I went to another  area
table  and  told  them briefly what my background was - I was invited to
talk to Mr.  Z.  Mr.  Z told me that the person that I need to  talk  to
was  not  there,  but,  he  gave  me  a  DTN  and  asked  me to call him
"immediately".  I did, it was made crystal clear, in no uncertain terms,
that  I  should  come  to  his location for an interview at the earliest
possible date.  The situation where he  wanted  to  use  me  was  again,
something  that I would love to do, and, in a location that I would love
to live.

That's it.  I didn't even THINK about visiting the other areas!!  I  now
have  three offers to choose from ...  each one of them being far beyond
my wildest expectations.

    
THIS ENTIRE  PROCESS  TOOK PLACE  WITHIN THE TIME  SPAN OF ONE HOUR!!!!!
                                                           --- ----
    
The moral is - BY ALL THAT IS HOLY don't pass up the next COD.   If  you
don't hear from them after you've submitted your resume - don't let that
stop you.  Believe me, from my perspective, COD is the best thing  since
sliced pizza and beer!!!!

Any questions?

Jerry

    Ref:  <<< Note 993.43 >>>
    
    Congratulations!
    
    One might deduce from your experience that there appears to be a
    definite change in the wind.
    
    My only question is, "When will there be a "type of COD" that helps
    employees that are remotely scattered throughout the field (world) that
    are needing new positions, or positions that better utilize their
    skills, aptitudes, desires and capabilities?"
    

RE: .43

Congratulations. 

I, too, sent a resume but heard NOTHING! I, too, assumed this meant that I did
not match any of the positions that were being offered. Unlike you, I did not
have anyone to tell me differently.

I thought about just showing up with my resume. However, my location is about
25 miles away from MR03 and I didn't want to take the time to drive over there
only to be told that walk-ins were not allowed. That only those with scheduled
interviews would be admitted. That was certainly the impression that I got from
the available information. I guess I should have gone.

If there is a Career Days III I hope they make it clear that walk-ins will be
welcome.

       RE: .43
       
       
       	It's nice to hear that red-tape has been eliminated somewhere!!!
       
       							mike

Posted anonymously from another Noter...

Jim Stratton
Co-moderator, DIGITAL conference

----------------------
Another thumbs up COD experience. (Names and regions omitted to protect the
innocent).

Like previous notes, I had also sent my resume with no response from COD.
I had also been posting on several req's in the field, again with no response.
I was ready to ignore the whole thing, but decided, what the heck, I'll go for
a little while and see what it is like. (I was looking in the Software Services
area, Sales Support).

I got there first thing Tuesday morning. Went to 1 of the 2 regions I was 
interested in. They scheduled me for an interview @11. Hmmm, maybe this will
work out after all. I sauntered over to the 2nd region, and was setup with an
interview immediately! The interviewer was a hiring manager (Mgr1) from that
region. He offered me my choice of 4 openings he had. All the opening sounded
like just what I was looking for, but were in a state I was not interested in
relocating to. After explaining where I would be willing to relocate to, 
Mgr1 said I needed to talk to Mgr2 who was the hiring manager for the state I
wanted. Mgr1 went and brought Mgr2 over to the table, telling Mgr2 'You want 
this guy'. After interviewing with Mgr2, I was asked to fly to the state for
further interviews as they had several positions available that would fit my
skill set and what I was looking to do (I go next week for those interviews).

This all took place in the first 2 hours I was there!

Then I went to my 11am interview for Region 1. Again it was a hiring manager
from the region (Mgr3). Mgr3 had several positions that seemed to fit, and 
wanted me to get scheduled for further in depth interviews. Mgr3 then said there
are a couple of other managers  who should talk to you (Mgr4 and Mgr5).
I was brought to Mgr4 immediately, and scheduled to interview with Mgr5. I
finally finished interviewing at 5:30! I have followup interviews scheduled
for 10 different positions, all of which are exactly the kind of work I am
looking to get into!

If a COD III comes around, RUN, do not WALK to it. The field managers want it
to work and were putting a lot of time and effort into it.

Why is that the people who basically said, "$%^%^ the rules. I'm gonna show up."
are the ones who are having success, but the ones who followed the rules are
getting nowhere?

Bob

    Because you have to be a go-getter.  Nobody is going to call
    you.  If you want something GO FOR IT!!!
    

    
    Re:
    
>Why is that the people who basically said, "$%^%^ the rules. I'm gonna show up."
>are the ones who are having success, but the ones who followed the rules are
>getting nowhere.
    
    Because the hiring managers are looking for people with initiative.
    Going round the red tape is a way to make you stand out. Also it
    just seems obvious to me that if you want a job somewhere you try and
    talk to the hiring manager directly, you don't feed your resume into
    a sausage machine that is staffed by people are are not on the front
    line.
    
    Dave 

    RE: Last 2
    
    Agreed! Hiring managers for field positions are looking for people who
    know what they want to get done and find a way to do it.
    
    You may think that, "this is wrong ... if walk in's are acceptable,
    they should say so." I guess I can appreciate that viewpoint.
    
    On the other side of the coin, however, I think some of the managers
    who were at COD II were also at COD I and got burned. I know at least
    one such manager who relayed the following story:
    
    	He interviewed someone at COD I.  GOOD TALENT!
    
    	He went back to his office and told other people about this
    	candidate that he could not hire, but would be an excellent 
    	addition to the support staff that worked on his account.
    
    	He sold the other people on interviewing said candidate. Said 
    	candidate was brought to the office on numerous occaions to
    	interview with hiring managers and peers. A total of about 8 
    	different interviews were conducted over about 6 weeks.
    
    	The manager I know acted as this person's "sponsor" during the 
    	whole process, thus taking time away from his normal duties as
    	a sales manager on a BIG Digital account.
    
    	In the end:  	Candidate was offered job.
    			Candidate turned it down.
    			Manager said, "What? I can't believe it. Why did
    			  you come down here all these times and waste your
    	 		  time and ours if you weren't interested in the
    			  job?"
    			Candidate said, "Oh, I have no intention of moving
    			  from (name a New England State). I am going on
    			  all these interviews to keep my boss off my
    			  back. We're supposed to be out looking for a new
    			  job."
    
    With such experiences under their belts, hiring managers who come from
    outside the "greater Maynard Area" will truly appreciate a COD
    candidate who walks up to the table and says, "Hi, I'm so-and-so, and I
    can do the following things, and I'll move if I have to in order to get
    a job in the field ... I really want to do sales  support (or
    whatever."
    
    I don't wish to imply that the majority of COD candidates who "followed
    the rules" are only going to COD because they "have to". I know more
    than one who went, followed the rules, and are happy with the results
    (they got offers). 
    
    However, someone who breaks the rules to get in because "they want it
    bad" stands out in the crowd. You can call it unfair, you can call it
    wierd, you can call me Ray, or you can call me Johnson, but that's the
    way it is.
    
    /se
    
    

re: the past few

I guess I should have made myself clearer.  In the two examples in earlier
replies, it appears that the system just plain broke down.  The people had
skills that are badly needed in the field, but were told basically, nobody
is interested in you.  Something is horribly wrong when you are told you
can't do something, you break the rules and do it, and find people stumbling
over each other to make you an offer.

I guess this is just another example of our horrible mis/non-communication
problem.

Bob

re: .52

Going through official channels (i.e. Recruiting) is no way
to find a job in DEC.  Previously in this notes file I have described
how I was told by DEC recruiters there was no job for me only to get
hired through an agency (with a fee) a few weeks later. 

What I would suggest to anyone who would like to get a job in the
field is to post a request for information in one of the regional
notes files.   For example, if you are interested in the New York City
Metropolitan area make in inquiry here: 

SUBWAY::LOCAL		New York City
KYOA::NEW_JERSEY	The home of the Giants

Other regions have listings in EASYNOTES.LIS.  Ask for the names and
addresses of managers who need people and send them mail directly.  In
other words, bypass the bureaucracy. 

John

    With respect to "following the rules"....
    
    From the "advertising campaign" that COD put out, I got the impression
    that they were looking for Sales Support and Sales Associate, Sales
    Rep I, II type people, at the *highest* ... It never occurred to
    me that they would in fact be looking for the level that I wanted
    (Sales Executive or Sales Unit Manager).
    
    I didn't break any "rules" by showing up - I just walked in the
    door and showed them that there was something up here (me) that
    they didn't know was here...
    
    Ever heard of ....
    

    
    "In any case, do what's right"
    
    and...it seemed like the right thing to do.
    
    Jerry

	There is also the OASS::JOBS conference that accepts resumes from 
internal OR external sources, given that an external source needs an internal 
sponsor to write it!

I spent 4 months working to get a job in the field, and a very sepcific part 
of the field: Rochester, NY. Here are some pointers for people who wish to 
move to a specific area of branch office:

	o Check the VTX Jobs Book for Openings.

	o Call recruiter and try to find out Hiring Manager's name

	o Contact Hiring Manager directly via mail AND phone

	o Find out as much as you can about the business environment of your
	  target area and organization.

	o You can't really make this happen, but hopefully you can get a 
	  manager to 'sponsor' you and get you visibility with other managers
	  in the area that have openings.

	o BE PERSISTENT! If you have confidence in yourself and your ability
	  to be successful in that environment, DON'T GIVE UP! In many cases
	  just about the time that you think its a lost cause, an opportunity
	  will suddenly arise.

I went from I.S. Management to Sales Support Consultant via the above process 
and am VERY happy with my new role. Happy Job Hunting!

Jim

    For those who have questions regarding the issue of walk-in's at COD II,
    I know that when it became apparent at the last minute that some number
    of resumes had become 'lost' in the system, it was announced in LIVE WIRE
    that walk-in's were encouraged.
    
    As someone in the field who had to deal with the volume of resumes, I
    can assure you that we did our best at COD II to make sure that anyone
    who showed up was given as much attention as the invitee's.
    
    FYI, here are some unofficial statistics relative to the Mid-Atlantic
    and Southern Area's COD efforts:
    
    Approximately 1300 resumes were received via the COD Program office.
    After initial screening, 550 candidates were invited (via Western Union
    Mailgram) to scheduled interviews at MR03. Another 200 walk-in's were
    handled during the three days. All told, over 450 candidates left MR03
    with invitations in hand to on-site interviews in Philadelphia,
    Landover, Charlotte, Atlanta, and Orlando. Approximately 125 candidates
    arrived here in Landover tonight and will be interviewed over the next
    two days. Our goal is to fill more than 100 open positions.
    
    
    
    

    I read an awful lot of company stuff but somehow, at least for me out
    here in the boonies, I do not seem to get the word about COD in time.
    If I decided to be interested I'd drive the 200 miles to MRO and do a
    walk-in.  Maybe I'm not interested enough, but somehow things seem to
    slip by.
    
    I just read about CODII in DTW after the fact.  Matter of fact, I am
    the guy responsible for our office getting DTW in the first place
    (years ago), even though it was explained to me at the time that it was
    a "no, no" to mail it to the field away from the relevant location.  Is
    my complaint a result of the fact that the COD flow of personnel is
    intended to be from BOS to the field and not vice-versa (or between
    inter-field locations)?  Or even more probably, that us direct revenue
    folks (SWS/PSS) should quietly be kept bringing in the green?  Wish it
    would show up in the stock I bought on the plan.  I was not smart
    enough to sell it at the top either.  %$%#^#^%
    
    Fred

    Fred, basically the reason you did not hear about COD II is because you
    are most likely not eligible. I don't have the precise definition of
    COD II handy but primarily it is intended to move people from indirect
    positions to direct, i.e., headquarters, Greater Maynard Area (MEM,
    etc) folks to the field. Not to move field people around.

    Thought so.  No complaints really, it is an exellent program (idea) and
    I am glad that it is working to the good of DEC.  - Fred

    Add me to the list of people who heard about COD II too late, and who
    were completely unaware of any walk-in program.
    
    I tried communicating several times with the same E-Net address to
    which I submitted my resume, and all I kept getting was the same 
    message thanking me for my resume.  Just last week, I send mail to
    that address again asking for an explanation of why I was not con-
    tacted.  Guess what?  I got another thank-you for submitting my
    resume.
    
    I hope they handle the next COD better.  COD II was a very frustrating
    experience.

    At least you got through to the machine. I tried for about a week and a
    half using Nmail and VMS and A1 and - and - all I got was "insufficient 
    resources at remote node" or "remote node unknown". 

    I did "walk-in", twice, and did get to interview with one recruiter. 

    I did know about it well in advance of the event but for the most part,
    I agree with the major portion of the replies. It was confusing. Also
    none of the recruiters seemed to have a specific list of openings 
    available. They just mentioned generalities like software support or 
    sales support or if you had a req. in hand it was not their req. and
    the owner of it wasn't there. 

    If I am still looking for a job next time, if I'm still with the
    company, I hope it is a little less helter skelter. 

    re:<<< Note 993.62 by CSSE::CACCIA "the REAL steve" >>>

>    I did know about it well in advance of the event but for the most part,
>    I agree with the major portion of the replies. It was confusing. Also
>    none of the recruiters seemed to have a specific list of openings 
>    available. They just mentioned generalities like software support or 
>    sales support or if you had a req. in hand it was not their req. and
>    the owner of it wasn't there. 
    
    What is perhaps confusing is that for most of the people who will be
    hired through COD, there are no existing req's.  The reasons for this
    are several.  It is not as if the Field has traditionally had a large
    number of open positions which have gone begging and COD was viewed as
    a way of filling them.  Rather, the corporation has "enhanced" the
    supply of internal candidates and is now working on ways to beef up the
    demand.  Almost everyone placed through COD will not cost the receiving
    cost center one red cent for the first 18 months - that will provide
    the demand necessary to start the hiring process.
    
    I made 5 verbal offers during COD II.  I did not have a single req open
    for them.  I was still awaiting approval of our investment plans.  Once
    that came through, I cut the req's and immediately made written offers
    against them.  Not a single one will show up in the JOBS book.
    
    Bottom line - hiring managers were inundated with resumes before the
    event.  It was very difficult to sort through them all and pre-arrange
    interviews with candidates who a. were minimally qualified and b. were
    interested in moving to Albany NY.  We did set up some interviews ahead
    of time but quite frankly made out much better with walk-in people who 
    were motivated to seek us out.
    
    Al
    

    	re: JOBS notesfile
    
    	I have had 2 job transfers in my 6 years here at DEC.  Both
    	were found through JOBS.
    
    	Once the interviews and discussions were complete, the hardest
    	part was getting personnel to catch up with the red tape.
    
    	I can't say enough about the value of JOBS and its ability to
    	cut through the red tape.  When you make a contact through the
    	informal channels, you start out talking with the person who
    	will hire you.
    
    	Joe Oppelt

    How can someone, who has a hiring manager in another city who wants his
    skills, get approved under COD II for relocation?  Normally I'd have sent
    this question to the COD mailbox - but .62(?) makes me think that's a 
    black hole.

                                     =Jp=

	... the personnel guy said send anyone with an offer to him, and he 
would start the reloc process that HOUR!

	Apparently these relocs are not funded in the usual way!

    Jp,
    
    I don't think your kind of relo would qualify for COD treatment.  I
    thought only non-field => field transfers would qualify for COD relo.
    
    Bob

    Re: .65
    I touched on this in .59 but here is the policy as stated in the
    "COD II Relocation Orientation Package For Personnel - Jan 1990"
    
    ***ELIGIBILITY FOR ENHANCED U.S. RELOCATION POLICY***
    
      o  Any Field Headquarters (USFM/FOHQ), MEM, or Corporate 
         Operations employee in the Greater Maynard and Southern New
         Hampshire locations who is relocating into a district based
         DIRECT JOB CODE in:
    
         o  Sales
         o  Customer Service
         o  Enterprise Intergration Services (EIS)
    
            o  Sales Support
            o  PSS
            o  DCC/ACT
            o  Customer Training
            o  Computer Spec Systems
    
         o  Customer Support Centers
    
    o   U.S. Area Staff employee who is part of a Strategic
        Redeployment effort, registers through C.O.D. and relocates
        into a district based direct job (as defined above).
    
    
    ***ELIGIBILITY FOR STANDARD U.S. RELOCATION POLICY***
    
    o   Any Field Headquarters (USFM/FOHQ), MEM, or Corporate 
        Operations employee in the Greater Maynard and Southern New
        Hampshire locations who is filling an INDIRECT position
        in the U.S. geographies will receive the standard Digital
        relocation benefit for current employees only after all local
        sourcing has been completed.
    
    ***EMPLOYEES NOT ELIGIBLE FOR COD RELOCATION BENEFITS***
    
    o   Employees in the U.S. Field geographies moving from indirect
        positions to direct positions (i.e. Financial Anaalyst to Sales
        Training) will fill open requisitions not requiring relocation in
        their local geographies.
    
    o   Employees in the U.S. Field geographies desiring to move from
        direct positions to direct positions.
    
    =====================================================================
    
    These are the rules for COD funded relocations. There is nothing to
    prevent a manager from offering someone who doesn't meet any of these
    criteria a new position in East Overshoe. It simply means that the
    relo benefits are standard (as stated in the Orangebook) AND that
    the hiring manager is picking up the cost.