Conference 7.286::digital

    Right on!
    
    Sell the planes, NOW.

    
    I remember from my RCA days how the company owned (1) Gulfstrean IV,
    (2) G-III's, (2) Citations, (2) others - I forget what type, plus
    (3) Sikorsky S-76 helicopters. Corporate Aviation had it's own paint
    scheme, logos, napkins, etc. All this lasted through years of massive
    losses, but was gone almost instantly when GE took over.
    

    Well, I'd let em keep the Citations.  after all, probably
    couldnt get more than $1000, unless they have low mileage
    and no rust :)
    
    

RE: .1

>> I'd even let them splurge and go Business Class.

	Screw that. I've had to travel my fair share for DEC and only
	twice did I get Business Class. (to Europe in '88) Believe
	me, I LIKE Business Class. You arrive ALOT more refreshed and
	ready for your task. BUT, just because someone is "higher up"
	in the food chain doesn't mean they should fly any different
	from me.

	Should this company ever get back into the black and make money
	hand over fist, then bring back Business Class. It's worth the
	extra money I think. Till then, let EVERYONE share the pain.
	Yes, including those right at the top. It's time to lead by
	example.

	To offer my opinion, I think the aircraft situation should be
	and I'm sure has been, addressed. Even a "If we aren't making
	money by such a date, we sell the following assets" message.


							mike

    Security issues can generate from much more than a "crazed
    ex-employess, etc." In perspective of airline schedules, flexibility
    gained, general security and what they leverage vs the relatively few
    dollars gained through sales of the aircraft, I think it would be a bad
    business decision to sell the fixed wing aircraft.  In addition to
    other benefits named for the heliocopters, customers really like the
    treatment of being flown when weather permits. How do you measure how
    many sales are attributible to heliocopter rides? Who knows exactly,
    but I KNOW from personal experience of several customers that it sure
    helps "ice the cake". 

Don't know about the jet fleet, but I had my helicopter flights cancelled last
week because "the entire helicopter situation was under review".  As far as I
know, they haven't flown in the last 2 weeks.

j.

re: .5, Dave

>              -< Keep the planes, don't forget value of leverage >-

Well, then, let's account for them on the balance sheet in terms of
"Cost of Sales" and restrict them to customer usage only.

Fat chance, right?

-Jack

    
    I vote for selling the damn things (if we haven't already). 
    In fact, I think they should have been gone by now.  If
    we need to fly a customer who buys something other than
    no-margin PCs, charter a flight.

As I'm writing this a helicopter is landing outside my window in MRO. I haven't
really noticed any reduction in helo flights over the last couple of weeks.

... while I was away on a trip.  My wife called me while I was away to relay
the call, that the Helo fleet was cutting back "for budgetary reasons."  When
I inquired later, they said (after the apology, they couldn't help the
cutback) that they were still flying, but at a reduced service level.

	As said previously, with fewer folks, fewer customers :-(
	and fewer locations, we don't need as big a GA fleet as we used
	to. Someone mentioned to me once that one reason we had as
	large a fleet as we once had was for delivery service,
	before the days of Federal Express, etc.

	But for Palmer, and a few other key folks, the one thing 
	that is really finite is their time.  You can generally borrow 
	more money, but you can only get a certain amount of a 
	person's time. The GA fleet helps them optimize this precious asset.

	So keep the G-IV, the Long Ranger and one of the Jet Rangers. 
	Maybe keep one of the Citations. Sell the rest. Move the
	GA ops out of Hanscom to a cheaper locale (Pease International
	Tradeport might work out nice).

				Tom_K

    
    Hey, what are laptops, pagers and cellular phones for?
    
    -Ed
    

	Doing those things that need not be done in person.

				Tom_K

    .5
    	-- How many helo rides sold tthe products -- Well if it takes a 
    helo ride to sell our products, then we need to either find some sales 
    folks that know how to sell without taking a customer to the county
    fair or make products that are worth buying....is the customer buying
    the computer or the helo ride (and getting a vax for free with the
    ride...sounds like a used-car sales technique).
    
    
    .11
    	Palmer's time too precious.....get serious, his job 1 is to make a 
    profit, as much as we can, and to do that he (and everyone) has to be
    efficient.  Sell the DEC fleet and use an American airlines.
    
    
    Is anyone really serious about trying to save this company???!!!  We 
    do not have much time left -- 250M of the 1000M debt has been issued 
    and that took care of Q1 only.  Q2 will not be different.  We are cash
    poor and running out of our debt opportunity.  DEC needs to act fast
    and hard now!

    Wne you consider the fixed wing craft, and their hourly cost, I wonder
    how often Palmer (or others) fly ALONE.   When Palmer goes to Geneva
    or Colorado, or wherever, aren't there others that go also ??
    
    Consider that if, at the stated costs you:
    
    	1) Fly 4-5 people minimum
    	2) Have the vonvenience of setting YOUR OWN schedule
    	3) Have the convenience of, potentially, landing closer to your
    	   destination than commercial flights
    	4) Can GUARANTEE the bagage content of the plane (vs
    	   pyrotechnic content).
    
    
    I remember talking with one of the DEC/Airforce folks about one trip of
    Smith's which starter at Hanscomb 4PM Friday and ended there at 6AM
    Sunday with 5 (or 6) stops invoved across the entire country (not incl
    Hawaii).  One of the "goodies" was the trip avoided O'Hare totally.
    
    Bill
    

U.S. Policies and Procedures 5.17 recommends against allowing too many key
people on one aircraft.  New additions are explicit about the number of
executive officers travelling together.
Tom

>    	Palmer's time too precious.....get serious

	I *am* serious. Time *is* an asset. Palmer gets 24 hours in each 
	of his days, same as the rest of us. Assuming he needs to sleep,
	eat, etc, there are only a finite number of hours per day he can 
	devote to company business. Additional time cannot be purchased *at*
	*any* *price*. It is to the company's benefit that maximum
	utility of his time be made. 
	
				Tom_K

    
    Seems to me a corporate jet travels no faster than a commercial liner.
    Therefore, no time is saved.  The issue is scheduling.  Careful
    planning and using tools like beepers, cellular phones and laptop
    computers can reduce the perceived "downtime" experienced waiting
    for departure times.  
    
    Yes, there may be times when we need something special, but we should
    simply charter flights for those situations.
    
    my $.02
    
    -Ed
    

    Last year my group was visited by a VP who had flown in on a company jet. 
    The VP indicated that the main reason he did not use commercial flights
    was that the work he was involved in was highly proprietary to Digital. 
    If it got outside the company, it could cause harm to Digital.  On a 
    commercial flight (or even in the airport) there was no way to protect
    against "wondering eyes" and so if he flew on a commercial flight, he
    could not do any company work.
    
    Just a thought...
    
    

    
    
    Re: .19
    
    I'd imagine there are ways of keeping wandering eyes off your work.  
    Seems like paranoia to me.  
    
    -Ed
    

    Try it....I can't tell you how many times I have read entire product 
    strategys over peoples shoulder on aircraft...anything you have out 
    on a crowded plane (and most are these days) is being read by at least
    the guy next to you ..and maybe the guy behind you as well...
    

    
    I'd say it would be harder in 1st class.  I don't have a problem with
    letting important folks fly POSH.  Heck, for the money we pay for the
    corporate jet, you could hire security guys and buy them seats too.
    
    -Ed
    
    

    WHAT? BP step out of his 80K Porche 911 into coach class? Such
    nonsense! 
         

    	 Reply .23


         		Did you know that Bob Palmer was a self
         made multi-millionare before he even started working for
         Digital? Before you chastise someone for what seems like
         frivolous spending you should check your sources about
         where he actually made his money. Digital certainly
         didn't make him a wealthy individual.


    	 

	Here's my idea. Keep the corporate jet. Modify it for
	in-flight refuelling. Keep it airborne on a holding pattern
	somewhere above Greenland so that, at any time, it's 
	equidistant in flying time from Boston or Geneva. Put Bob
	Palmer on board with a full range of SAT and RT links.
	Let him run the business from the comfort of his own jet.
	And anytime he needs to drop in to take care of important
	business, he can be there in a matter of a few hours. No
	long check-ins and airline delays anymore.

	;-)

	

    RE.24  Brian,Brian,Brian......calm down.
     However IMHO with "his" employees being TFSO'd left and right he might
     want to think about what kind of an image he presents to "his" average
     employee.
     >>>  Did you know that Bob Palmer was a self made multi-millionare 
          before he even started working for Digital??
       
         Yes I did, this gives me more reason to believe that a person of his
         success might think about how his average employee perceives him. 
         After  all the comany is in dire financial straights. Its the
         principal of it.  It might? help if he were a little more humble.
         ie" not to flaunt".
         
         Consider the following senerio:
    
         Your leaving the Mill in Maynard into the cold, dark December evening.
         It's your last day at Digital. You have been TFSO'd. You are
         un-voluntarily leaving the Mill Yard your bags packed after how many 
         years of honorable service? Quietly the gates to the main entrance 
         open onto Main St. A 911 Porche makes its way slowly past the gate. 
         You catch the gleam of chrome out of the side of your eye as the car 
         moves slowly unexpectably away.    

    reply.25	Ed, Ed, Ed..... (How are you, by the way?) 

    	Well, I'd feel no differently as I passed him on my way out
    the gate in my 350 SEL. I earned the money to buy it, so I'll
    drive it. ;-)

    	-Bri

    I have to side with Ed on this issue.  The cost and upkeep of an entire
    winged fleet is enormous and in our economic woes, an expense that
    should be eliminated.  We can have these assets sold, fly the key
    people Business class, and for extraordinary events, charter a jet on
    an as needed basis only.
    
    You live by example and you survive by all pitching in, rolling up
    their sleeves and doing what is necessary.  The example BP could set
    here would be a tremendous lift to the morale of the company.  

Henry Wifholm is responsibile for Digital's Aviation Services.

 As a concerned DEC employee, who believes that BP is looking out for the 
 best interest of employees, stockholders and customers, I'd prefer to have him
 and other senior management types spending a couple hours on a bizjet tending
 to whatever business is at hand than sitting around an airport boarding lounge
 waiting for delayed/overbooked flights resulting  in missed appointments and
 opportunities..chartering aircraft is not an inexpensive proposition, and I
 believe that their (BP et al) is to valuable to be wasted on risky commercial
 air travel.





 Jim

    
    How big is HP's fleet?  How many other companies with revenues in the
    $12B range have corporate jets?  Who has gotten rid of their fleet
    lately, and how much did it help/hurt.
    
    Asking questions like this might be a good first step.
    -Ed
    

    


	I have heard from a friend in the Aviation department:

	1. Digital fixed wing and helicopter aircraft  (have been/are being)
           sold (some, not all).

	2. Scheduled helicopter flights to/from Logan are being further
           reduced.

	3. The departent is now in the middle of across-the-board layoffs
           of personnel.

    Does the Digital air-fleet sit around waiting to be used, or do we
    charter parts of it out to help recoup costs?
    
    Laurie.

    If it isn't they should at least look at the possibility. A lot of the
    resources Digital has probably aren't used to their complete capacity. 
    Some of this capacity could be "sold" to other corporations when not in use.
    The planes and helocopters would be a good example of this. I'm no expert, 
    but I think chartering our planes to others when DEC isn't using them would
    be a good idea.
    
    Steve B.

	I'd hope not. I'd expect that the liability aspect of such
	an undertaking would far outweigh any possible benefit.

					Tom_K

    WHat suprises me, is that we did have an efficient corporate flight
    serves division. People travelling from Merrimack to Marlboro for a
    meeting, would not have to waste almost three hours travelling. Out to
    the Helipad, pick up the chopper, zip down the way, in a fraction of
    the time. Why don't we bring the full service back, and fully utilize
    it, rather than nickel and diming it out of existence...
    
    q
    

Re .36:

The one time I flew from MR to MK for a meeting, the only afternoon service
dropped me off in the middle of a meeting already in progress, and Tom Blinn
had to drive me back down to MR in his BMW because the flight I arrived on
around 3 was the last of the day to the site.

I'm talking '85 here - not last week.
				/AHM

    The regular flight between Hanscom and Kanata Canada are used to
    keep manufacturing connected with engineering, etc.  This plane
    is almost always full. The RT fare is about $500 on the commercial
    service.  I'm sure it doesn't cost too much to fly that old King
    Air up and back, it must save us money.

    Jon

    P.S. I hope the days of the socialist Digital are over. Everyone
         shouldn't be treated equal.  Pay for performance, jets for CEOs.
         ---------

    I flew from Kanata to Hanscom before. Just the 2 pilots and me.
    
    Mike

    re: .39
    
    in 75-76(?) time frame I flew from some airport in Bedford(?) to
    Westfield in "KO's plane" just me and KO's pilot....

    All right, this is silly, reporting "empty" flights that took place
    years ago.  THEY WERE ALL KO'S PLANE, and in addition to taking care of
    the chief executive's needs, they also transported people like you and
    me, and delivered packages, interoffice mail, etc.
    
    Mark

    	Eventhough this topic has seemed to die before I got here, I'd
    	like to add some items to help put things in perspective and
    	give us something to think about:
    
    	Here at CXO (Customer support center) they have traditionally
    	provided dinner for the few dozen people who have to work onsite
    	on Thanksgiving, Christmas, New Years. (We are a round-the-clock
    	operation.)  This year they did away with the dinner as a cost-
    	cutting measure.
    
    	Here at CXO we are being doubled up in cubes.  (Cubes are being
    	enlarged by 50%, and then 2 employees share that space.)  This
    	is also a cost cutting measure, as it will enable DEC to close
    	another facility and combine it in our building.
    
    	We can expect not to see holiday turkeys next year.  (Rumor only
    	as far as I know.)
    
    	We can expect not to see company picnics next year.
    
    	We can expect to see less training next year.
    
    	We can expect to see fewer and fewer employee benefits like
    	free museum admissions.
    
    	Do any of these (or all combined) really affect the bottom line?
    	Would killing the air fleet really impact the bottom line?  
    
    	The last question is really the point of this entry.  Are people
    	looking for the sacrifice of the air fleet to feel a sense of
    	vindication in making the upper management lose one of their
    	perceived toys?

    I've been informed that we 'recently' sold one of our King Airs.
    
    Bob

    re: .42
    
    
    I haven't used Aviation Services for awhile (2yrs) but at least up
    until that time, they were not really a "percieved toy" for "upper
    management"  The service was available to anyone who chose to use it.
    The helicopter service is probably the most widely used.  There is
    (was?) no charge for this service, unless you failed to cancel a 
    reservation and did not show up (your cc got hit with a "no-show"
    charge.  I am definitely NOT management, let alone upper mgmt.  The
    seats were always available on a first come, first serve basis, and
    for people travelling to/from the airport frequently, it was absolutely
    the best bet...
    
    
    $.02,
    Jim

    The time I rode on the King Air we asked the pilot if it wasn't odd to
    have a bunch of individual contributors like us on the plane instead of
    lots of suits.  He said no, that most of the people he ferried were
    ordinary workers who had to go somewhere far away to do their jobs.  In
    our case, several of us from a development group made a day trip to a 
    customer site on Long Island to support a salesman.  If we'd gone on a 
    commercial flight we'd have had to go to a hotel, so, as far as our cost 
    center was concerned, we could send more people for cheaper and less time.

    Joe,
    
    Whenever I read this kind of topic, I think about personal
    responsibility.  I'll betcha most people don't think twice when it
    comes to spending their own cost center's money.
    
    Mark

    Digital's geographic location (lots of building 30-40 miles away from
    any major commercial hub; i.e. Logan), the roads (busiest secondary
    roads in the nation according to the NTSB), our large non-US business
    (60% of revenue) travel requirements, and the type of business we're
    in (very competitive, time driven) are all factors that are for
    maintaining a helicopter fleet.  My peeve is with our fairly robust
    fixed wing fleet, as I pointed out in .0.  I can understand a fixed
    wing fleet for Corning Glass (on Corning/Elmira airport, far from
    anything), likewise with Marathon Oil in Findlay Ohio.  But given
    our location from Logan, and hence given that a helicopter fleet
    makes some sense for the reasons cited above, I'd love to see our
    $25m GIV canned and see the money finance the helicopter fleet into
    the next century.  .02 kb 

    I had to laugh.  The only reason Findlay Ohio HAS an airport is for
    Marathon. :-)  When I was growin' up there, we had to travel to Toledo
    for commercial flights.
    
    Mark

    Yeah, I've flown into Findlay... pretty much a one horse town!
    Not quite as bad with Corning/Elimira, but close.  I used those
    two examples cuz they represent corporations that can justify a
    bizjet fleet (with corporate hq's in the middle of nowhere, out
    of practical helicopter range from a large commercial hub) (and
    they [at least used to] both fly GIV's).  I imagine fuel is easier
    to come by for Marathon's jets tho ;-)
    

Findlay, one horse?  They've got a White Castles.  What else do you want?
%^)   -- Dennis, (ex Old Mill Streamer)

    I don't remember a White Castle, but they had "Wilson's" (much like
    Wendy's) just across the street from the Marathon HQ.  Since Findlay
    was the largest town in the area (county seat of Hancock Co.), the high
    school kids from all over would drive to Findlay after ballgames and
    cruise the main drag from the Marathon parking lot to the Big Boy.
    
    Mark

   >> Yeah, I've flown into Findlay... pretty much a one horse town!
   >> Not quite as bad with Corning/Elimira, but close.
    
    Oh come on now, the Elmira-Corning airport isn't all *that* bad..
    
    If you haven't been there within the last two years or so, it been
    entirely remodeled.  New ticket counters, huge baggage area, waiting
    lounge, and a real jet-way.  Do they have one of those in Findlay?
    
    I've seem a lot worse (have you ever been to Ithaca?).
    
    Larry

Heard a rumor that the company recently bought a new Gulfstream for Palmer's
use...

Can anybody confirm/deny?

Thanks-

Lee

    I was on a copter about a month ago and they were talking about selling
    off our fixed wing planes.  That 2 or 3 were already gone.  I'd be more
    likely to believe that one plane was refitted to Palmer's specs.
    
    	Dave

	I'd be surprised if the fixed wing fleet uses Logan much.
	After all, it is based at Hanscom, and I expect Hascom
	is much more convenient to Maynard than Logan...

					Tom_K

    re .55
    Thanks for the update.  As a pilot, I hate to see planes go away.
    But as an employee of a company that lost $3b in the last two years,
    and has very little need for a fixed wing fleet, I'll get over it.
    May they find good new homes.

    re .57
    
    Has very little need for a fixed wing fleet?
    
    Cmon folks, we are still a $13B corporation. My father recently retired
    as CEO of a $1B corporation. It had 3 Fixed wing aircraft, including a
    Gulfstream, and 6-7 helicopters... 
    
    WHen I see the number of people, that have to drive from Marlboro to
    Merrimack etc for meetings, one wonders just how "unviable" the chopper
    fleet was.
    
    q
    

    Revenue status does not equate to need for a bizjet fleet [that
    was Ken, this is now].  See an earlier reply that mentioned
    Marathon Oil, a great example of a small company in the boondocks
    [sorry Findlay...] that can easily justify a robust fixed wing fleet.
    Also see earlier replies on the redundancy of DEC's bizjets
    with the choppers' ability to access the nearby major international
    commercial hub.  What was your father's business and where was
    it located?   

    Findlay's not in the boondocks!  Hey, it had cable-TV long before some
    of you did.  Now, Benton Ridge, ... that's out there. :-)

Marlboro to Merrimac -- isn't that about 75 minutes by car?  

Back when there were helicopters to ride, I believe it took over
half an hour by copter.  But add to that the time spent waiting
(we had to arrive early because they would not wait, and they didn't
necessarily arrive on time) and the time spent riding a copter wasn't
that dramatically different from driving.

Then there was the rainy day when I tried to fly from Nashua to
Hudson and ended up, after an hour in the air, at Hanscom (some
mist rose up and we couldn't see the ground).  Another 45 minutes 
(renting a car and driving it) and we were finally home.

Given the claimed very high cost of copter flights (wasn't the cc
charge over $200 per flight?), I can see why they cancelled them.

	Enjoy,
	Larry

>Given the claimed very high cost of copter flights (wasn't the cc
>charge over $200 per flight?), I can see why they canceled them.

	If I recall, the cc was only charged if you *didn't* show up.

	I would have loved to have taken the chopper, but it was no time 
	saver. You couldn't take it to the mill unless you went to
	Parker Street and took the shuttle from there to the mill.
	Close to twice the elapsed time it would take to drive from
	ZKO, so I always drove...

					Tom_K

    
    Well it did have it's advantages.  When I used to be in PK03, and
    had to travel, I would park my car at PK03, catch the chopper into
    Logan, and then back to PK03 when I returned.  Sure beat fighting
    the traffic etc. getting into and out of Logan...and I didn't have 
    to worry about my car getting broken into or stollen.
    
    ART
    

    
    
      The choppers still fly on occasion...  I saw one landing at
    NIO last thursday.  (Probably a V(I)P charter of some sort.)
    
    
    
    							-al
    

It really makes sense for those of not from the GMA when on short visits to 
Digital sites serviced by the choppers.  Over the last 6 years, I have 
utilized them many times, and it has made my life much easier and saved the 
company money in rental cars, hotels, meals, etc., when without the chopper I 
would have been forced to rent a car, or stay an extra night.

It is subject to certain restrictions as mentioned a couple of notes back, but 
I always had a rental car reserved in case the weather closed in, etc.  If the 
choppers were flying, I'd cancel the car and be on my way.

I think I had one bad experience in maybe a dozen or two chopper trips, and it 
was only inconvenient.  I was leaving from MRO, the pilot asked us what time 
our flights were and I had some spare time, the woman on the flight was 
meeting friends in town for dinner, so she did not have a pressing schedule, 
so we detoured to Maynard to pick someone up, drop him at MRO and then we were 
off to Logan.  And, we got extra DEC frequent flyer miles to boot!

    Just last month I caught the helicopter from PKO3 to Logan, and then
    returned to PKO3 a few days later.  
    
    On the return flight, when I got to the DIGITAL DESK at Logan, the man
    there signed me in, checked that I was on the manifest, and called to
    wherever the chopper was at the time and told them "Mr. Bean" had
    arrived.  I waited about 15 minutes, and the chopper flew in, picked me
    up and ferried me to PKO.  
    
    I WAS THE ONLY PASSENGER SCHEDULED!
    
    How cost effective was that?  I'f I had had the slightest inkling that
    I'd be alone on the flight, I'd have cancelled and rented an Avis car!
    
    And this from a company that is cutting costs?
    
    
    tony

    
    Re: .66
    
    > I WAS THE ONLY PASSENGER SCHEDULED!
    >
    > How cost effective was that?  I'f I had had the slightest inkling that
    > I'd be alone on the flight, I'd have cancelled and rented an Avis car!
    
    Don't jump to the conclusion that it was not cost effective.  We
    already have the helicopter.  We are already paying the pilot.  The
    actual additional cost might be just the fuel it took which might be
    less than the cost of renting a car. 
    
    Now if your argument is that your experience might suggest that we
    look into whether we should eliminate the helicopter service altogether,
    that is a different discussion than whether for this one case it would
    have been wiser to rent a car.
    
    Steve
    

Several years ago I worked closely with helicopter service doing some
on-the-side volunteer work. I found out then, (several years ago) that
it cost approx. $1000 per hour to operate one chopper. You can rent
a lot of AVIS time for that.

John I.

    
    Re: .68
    
    > I found out then, (several years ago) that it cost approx.
    > $1000 an hour to operate one chopper.  You can rent a lot
    > AVIS time for that.
    
    That is true, but this is comparing apples to oranges is my
    point.  The figure of $1000 an hour is a way of expressing the
    total cost of operating one helicopter in the context of offering
    helicopter service.  That does not mean that a single one hour
    trip by itself equates to $1000 of additional cost that would not
    have been incurred if that chopper had been left sitting for that
    hour.  The $1000 includes all the related costs i.e. insurance,
    maintenance, depreciation, fuel, salaries, etc.  Using the $1000
    an hour operational cost is data that you would use in the context
    of whether or not to continue the helicopter service at all.
    
    What I am saying is that taking one particular trip as a case in
    point and assuming that it would have been cheaper to rent a car
    than to incur the additional out of pocket expense that that single
    trip incurred above what you are already paying anyway is not
    necessarily correct.  Sending the chopper in that one case may have
    been cheaper than renting the car.  Without actual data we can only
    make assumptions.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    
    
      If the helicopter came into logan presumably carrying people,
    it still had to get back to its base somehow.
    
      You could either rent a car and pay extra,  or hitch a ride on 
    the chopper.   Either way,  the chopper wasn't going to sit at 
    logan...
    
      Operating an air service is a funny thing.  Ideally you want 
    to operate the aircraft only when it's full.  However,  sometimes
    it's actually cheaper in the long run to make an almost empty run
    in order to keep your reputation for reliability,  rather than
    always cancelling flights to the point where your passengers don't
    consider you a viable alternative any more...
    
      Even if the chopper flew home empty,  if it went in full,  
    the trip still might have been worthwhile.    I've seen cases
    where Aviation Services  asks travellers to cancel commercial tickets
    to help fill up a corporate jet  returning from a 1-way 
    "VIP"  charter...  For the lucky guy who gets to ride home all
    alone in the westwind  it seems like wild  extravagance,  but
    if the jet was going to fly home empty otherwise,  it suddenly
    becomes a worthwhile effort.
    
      I don't know if the corporate "air-force"  is cost effective
    or not,  but I do know that you really can't extrapolate that
    information from a single data point...
    
    
    						-al

If you ride the bus late at night you might conclude that public
transporation is a waste of money.... you have to look at the overall
usage.

Lee

    The helicopter was on the ground somewhere, or was perhaps in route to
    somewhere else.  My distinct impression was that, had I not appeared
    for the flight, the chopper would not have landed at Logan.  It was
    empty when it arrived.
    
    In fact, on the outbound trip a week earlier, there was just one other
    passenger, and we were ferried from PKO to MLO where we picked up or
    delivered some packages, and then flown to Logan.  
    
    If the cost of flying a helicopter is anywhere near 1000 per hour
    (that's the highest number I've heard... I've a friend who flies one
    and I'll ask her if she knows what it actually does cost to own,
    maintain, license and fly one)... it seems an exhorbitant (sp?) way to
    conduct business.
    
    Of course, the FIRST time I flew from PKO to Logan (last year), there
    was a upper level manager on board, and about five other passengers as
    well.  
    
    tony

    OF course, all of this is because of the fear of spending being put
    into people. The CHoppers are there, they cost money, even if sitting
    idle. IN fact, the ROI is lower, the less work that they do.
    
    Let's get back to using them, as the tool that they are... i.e. start
    behaving like a $14B corporation again...
    
    re the economies of travelling empty.  A friend of mine, (Who lives in
    Alabama), air-hitchs to New York every two weeks, He then flies an
    empty 747 Freighter (owned by Nippon Air Cargo) to anchorage alaska,
    loads with crab and salmon, flies to Narita (Tokyo). Loads with
    consumer electronics, and either goes to LAX or Amsterdam. Then flies
    back to NY empty. THis is still extremely cost effective, even though
    the 747 is empty for 40%+ of it's flying time...
    
    q

    
    
      FWIW,  between $600/hour and $1000/hour is probably pretty
    close to the operating cost for a turbine helicopter.
    
    
    						-al
    

    I talked to my friend (the helicopter pilot) on Saturday.  She said it
    costs about $500 per hour to RENT a small turbo-jet powered helicopter. 
    The kind DEC has are much larger than the kind she was talking about. 
    So, I guess the $1000 per hour estimate is not too far off.
    
    t.

    Yes, but that is a rental rate. Avis charges you $30/day for a mid size
    sedan. It doesn't cost that to own and operate one...
    
    q

    
    
      It costs $500 to rent a turbine helicopter...
    
      I'm not sure how digital calculates the costs of running the 
    choppers,  but I wouldn't be surprised if the salary costs of
    the reservation system  and possibly the costs of the gate services
    at Logan get added in.  
    
    
    						-al
    

I don't understand why the author of .66 didn't just drive his own car,
get a ride from a friend or colleague, or take a limo, since travel time 
doesn't seem to have been a compelling issue.

Once you book a ride on a chopper, it's not reasonable to expect them
to call you at your hotel in some other city to cancel the flight just 
because they couldn't get other passengers.  While many people in the
system have responsibility for reducing costs, the person doing the 
booking shares in that responsibility.

   Gary

    
    Re: $1000 per hour for choppers
    
    Again, it makes sense to discuss whether Digital is getting
    enough for its money to continue to offer helicopter service
    if the operating cost is $1000 an hour.  
    
    It does not make sense to jump to the conclusion that a single
    run to Logan to pick up one passenger was not cost justified. 
    You simply do not have the data needed to know that.
    
    Steve
    

Working in MRO I've flown the helicopters fairly recently.  They did do cost
analysis recently and they cut out 40% of their flights, layed off pilots, and are
trying to sell some of the fixed wing fleet.  

As a capital asset, I believe that all our helicopters are 5 or more years old,
which means they are fully depreciated.  Our hangar at Hanscom is nothing to write
home about and neither is our gate in terminal A.  So that can't cost much.  The
$500 quote includes someone's profit and coverage for the time the bird is on the
ground unrented.  I would think that our cost of operation per flight must be
closer to the $150 you get charged for a no show.

Has anyone tried to charter the helicopter recently?  That would give another
indication on the price involved.

	Dave

    According to Thomas Cook, helicopter and corporate jet services have
    been suspended.  It looks like some of our upper management's butts
    get to see an airline seat, as I suggested in .0 a year and a half ago.
    _kb

I recently received a mail message on one of my distribution lists indicating
that the entire Digital helicopter and corporate jet fleet was grounded today. 
All flights were cancelled.

The way it was worded implied that this was permanent.


On the one hand, it's a symbolic indication that we're "circling the wagons"
again.  On the other hand, how much does this save, especially since those
taking the helicopter and/or jet will now have to take various commercial
services?


Curious,

John

    This and other manifestations of eletism should have been jettisoned
    two years ago!
    
    

    RE: .1  by MIMS::PARISE_M 
    
    >This and other manifestations of eletism should have been jettisoned
    >two years ago!
    
    Yeh!  Tell those visiting customers to take a cab from Logan and we'll
    reimburse 'em later.
    

    Penny wise and pound foolish?  But then perception is reality!

    
    The dictum is to cut costs.  Why should axing the corporate jets be
    such a bad decision.  Obviously someone who is accountable has looked
    at the ROI and said, "No justification."
    
    

    re: taking a cab for a change ...
    
    As a former customer being courted by IBM, HP, and DEC, I have a fond
    recollection:
    
    	We went to visit IBM in New York City. Met by the sales rep at La
    Guardia, we jumped in a cab and went downtown. Traffic was bad, and
    the sales rep fretted about making the meeting with the IBM VP's. We
    made it a few minutes late, and meeting went forward.
    
    	Went to visit DEC two weeks later. Met by DEC sales rep at Logan,
    got us over to the helicopter, and off we flew. Landed in plenty of
    time, walked into the conference room, and nobody was there. The sales
    rep spent the next 45 minutes trying to locate the two DEC VP's we
    were supposed to meet. It wasn't a total loss, as I got my very first
    opportunity to wander lost in the halls of the Mill, but ...
    
    Geoff

    
    Re: .82
    
    > On the one hand, it's a symbolic indication that we're "circling the wagons"
    > again.  On the other hand, how much does this save, especially since those
    > taking the helicopter and/or jet will now have to take various commercial
    > services?
    
    How much does this save?  Probably a lot.  There was a note floating
    around perhaps a year or more ago about how much it cost for a
    helicopter trip from Maynard to Logan.  I seem to remember the
    operating cost estimated at about $1000 an hour.  The important
    question is how often do we really NEED to have helicopter or fixed
    wing service at our convenience.   It's the same as if you live in
    the city and can walk to work but maintain your own car that you only
    drive 2000 a year or so.  Renting a car when you need it is LOTS
    cheaper.  We could probably hire helicopter or chartered corporate
    jet service for customers etc. when we really need it and save money
    over having our own fleet sitting by just in case.
    
    fwiw,
    Steve
    

    Waht about the Bedford-Kanata service?  Some of use it for (real)
    business purposes, like a cheaper way of travelling to a customer in
    Canada to do delivery/revenue-generating work.  And that service had
    been subsidized by manufacturing for the Kanata plant.
    
    /d.c.

    re: .88
    
    Yes, rental service is available and more economical.  Trouble is that
    we have taken almost three years to notice an obvious savings.  Does
    this tell you anything about the Digital management team.  I know that
    this suggestion was made to Delta almost 3 years ago.
    
    Digital management is so defensive, so protective of the status quo, or
    their group, that they can't see the trees in the forest.  Let alone,
    figure out that we can cut the trees down, make lumber, design and
    build houses, create a community, provide services to the community,
    etc. 
    
    How much did we loose, running the flight services for three years?
    Will the SLT now lay-off the equivalent number of people to make up for
    their oversight?

    Re: rental aviation service
    
    I thought that we could save money by renting and asked one of our
    pilots about it.  I got a large shrug and some myriad reasons why it
    wouldn't pay (why not? it was his skin...).
    
    In the case of the Kanata service we could approach Delta (who flies to
    Ottawa) and tell them that we'd guarantee 2-3 full roundtrips a week in
    exchange for a significant discount.
    
    I'll probably drive to Ottawa until it snows...
    
    /d.c.

    Ironically, the only aircraft in the Bedford hanger still flying?
    
    Ken Olsen's Piper, which (as of not too long ago) was still permitted
    to be kept in Digital's hanger.  Ken supposedly reimburses Digital
    market value for the hanger use.  kb

    
    >Yeh!  Tell those visiting customers to take a cab from Logan and we'll
    >reimburse 'em later.
    
	Doesn't matter. Sooner or later the customer picks up the tab.

    re .88
    $1000/hr for the Bell 206's is too high; they can generally be rented
    for instruction for $150-$200/hr, and that includes higher insurance
    rates than a corporate fleet is entitled.  The 212's are a bit higher;
    in the $200-$250/hr range.     
    
    However, the real thirst comes when we fly the $25m Gulfstream IV
    business jet.  It drinks 2666 pounds/hr of Jet A1 at cruise.
    Figure 6 pounds per gallon, and [depending on where you buy it]
    at $1-$2/g, translates to $500-$1000/hr for fuel alone.  Figure in
    maintenance, hanger, pilot pay, insurance, depreciation, etc and
    you're *well* over $1000/hr.
    
    I suggested two years ago that selling the GIV would subsidize the
    helicopter fleet well into the next century, have the least impact
    of jobs at Av Services, and the helicopters could still provide the
    major time savings in the access to the local commerical hub.
    Instead, we have nothing flying, [what looks to be] no Av Services
    jobs saved, and no time savings.  kb 

    Well,well,well! Looks like we're on the way back to the "free donuts
    for customers only" deal only now it'll be "free helicopter rides for
    customers only"
    
    Ken

    Here in the UK we have no aircraft for the use of "executives" and we
    manage to do business all over Europe just fine. As someone among many
    who hasn't had a raise in 3 years I'm afraid I cant muster much
    sympathy for the "executives" who now have to use the same airlines as
    the rest of us now.What were they thinking of running an aircraft fleet
    anyway in these desperate times,talk about being on a different planet 
    to the rest of us.No wonder we're in the pooh.
    Geoff

    
        Ummmm, just to point out that not all company aircraft travel 
        is for executives and the like.  The flights between Kanata 
        and GMA (Greater Maynard) have been very helpful to plebeian 
        project engineers and leaders in getting their work done, 
        because travel to Kanata by company aircraft received less 
        micro-management scrutiny by the management food chain than 
        commercial airline travel.
        
        So please let's not tar everything with the same brush.
    
    
    	Peter
    

    re .96
    
    Geoff
    
    
    You have overlooked the regular UK Dec Charter plane that flies, 
    (flew), between Galway. Ayr, Blackbush and various other locations..
    
    I think it is still in operation.
    
    rdgs
    
    Patrick.
    

Yesterday, the big copter was at MRO, and today the small one was back.

So something is still flying. These looked like the same ones we used to see
several times a day.

        Yes, I saw a chopper landing at ZKO today.  So there must be SOME
        of the fleet flying.  But there is a difference between running
        scheduled service and running demand flights.
        
        Gee, maybe it was Corporate Personnel coming to visit edp..
        
        Tom

    I wouldn't doubt that the chopper fleet is being used to shuttle
    around potential buyers of the various company tidbits, now that
    we're about to enter spin-off mode in a big way.  Could sitting
    in the chopper pad and refusing to move be considered job security?
    kb ;-)  

    
     As I recall, all SCHEDULED helicopter flights have been cancelled.
    
     Charter flights, at cost center expense, may still be requested at
     this time.

    re: charter flights ...
    
    Now that we don't have Lucente (with his taste in limousines) to kick
    around any more, maybe we'll have to keep a close eye on the helipads
    to spot some new VP's indulging in expensive perks ...
    
    Geoff

    Fortune Magazine, May 30, has an interesting article on Gulfstream IV's
    entitled (appropriately): "The Best Way to Fly... But It Sure Is
    Something CEO's Don't Like To Discuss".  Digital isn't mentioned
    in the article as owning one, but other companies that can better
    afford the $2500/hour operating cost and $3m/year depreciation are.
    
    Seems to be a good topic of discussion for the next Palmer DVN ;-)
    -kb