Conference 7.286::digital

> I think I know why we're hell-bent on moving to Exchange,
> even though it makes very little REAL business sense.
> 
> As we move to Exchange, they've promised to retire all
> the old legacy (read "VAX") systems that are now running
> VAXmail and ALL-IN-1 mail.
> 
> What other popular product, used by many of us daily,
> also runs on those legacy systems, either as a client
> or a server?
> 
> Right! VAXnotes/DECnotes! Yes, there are client implementations
> that run on Macs or PCs, and yes, not all the notesfiles are
> hosted on the big servers, but an awful lot of us either use
> the big servers as our clients or read notesfiles that are
> hosted on the big servers. Cut those out of the mix and a lot
> of the VAXnotes infrastructure and user base goes away.

  I'd say this is playing out just about right. Not only does
  the daily volume of VAXnotes seem to be way down from when
  I wrote this back in September, but within my area, a memo
  has just been circulated announcing the shutdown of the big,
  "public" timesharing clusters.

  Aside from niches within the engineering community, I'd say
  VAXNotes will be dead within a few months. And by blocking
  this very-democratic communications channel, management will
  have accomplished another goal in increasing their power at
  the expense of all of us.

                                   Atlant

    
>  VAXNotes will be dead within a few months. And by blocking
>  this very-democratic communications channel, management will
>  have accomplished another goal in increasing their power at
>  the expense of all of us.
    

    I've noticed a major drop in noting activity in the technical
    conferences too. Maybe we should be "selling" the PC-based notes
    browsers, as a means of keeping the numbers up.
    
    Cheers, Laurie.

    I've noticed the same thing Atlant, though have ascribed it's possible
    cause to the exctinction of the old Digital way of working as DECcies
    with experience were TFSO'ed or resigned. More of an unintended 
    (though thoroughly predictable by anyone who cared to think about it)
    and lamentable side effect, which then has had a cascading set of 
    other side effects, among them those noted earlier here. I guess what I
    am saying is that I doubt there was a grand technology plan at
    work here, rather only a blundering cost reduction plan which happened
    to have the unintended side effects noted here. 
    Bruce

    
    In a turbolaser class this week...2 fairly new 'digital' students have
    never heard of notes....;-(

   In time, someone will write a notes server based on vms notes that
   is native to NT. Netnotes is already a decent client. Just need to
   move the server end. Stop being so paranoid.

   And please, don't bring up Exchange public folders or newsgroups.
   (gag)

>   And please, don't bring up Exchange public folders or newsgroups.

    Yes, the quality of the discussions is not as "high", but ANYONE in the
    technical workforce would be well advised to have their own PC at home
    and a good ISP connection.  You don't want to be dependent on your
    employer for your email or news or any other communications.
    
    There is even a (little used) DEC alumni newsgroup.  Eventually the
    quality of the newsgroups, perhaps the moderated ones, will improve.
    
    Tony
    

    re: Note 4852.78 by JOKUR::MACDONALD
    
    I think the consequence of notesfiles going away was indeed calculated
    by upper management! Remember the reference in one of Ron Glover's
    memos about information worker productivity?
    
    Ken....

RE:.80

	As has been pointed out many times, there is an NT-based
	NOTES server from OSTECH. http://www.ostech.com

	We need only dump DECnet access to Notes.

							mike

     Mike, what's the license policy on that product ? 

The decline in Notes in ***NOT*** due to management decree or Exchange 
migration!  Discussions have simply migrated to Usenet Newsgroups.  This is 
simply a side-effect of TCP/IP becomming the universal network protocal.

The great benefit of Usenet is that it allows dicussion to be world-wide, 
instead of limited to Digital employees.  Why limit myself to a few Digital 
employees that may respond in NETCAD::HOLIDAY_TRAVEL, when I can converse 
with the world in rec.travel?  Digital specific issues can be dicussed in 
newgroups private to Digital, whithout the need to learn a different 
interface.

Due to the volume of information, you'll probably "waste" MORE time in 
Usenet newsgroups than in notesfiles!


							-Paul

Newsgroups are not a good replacement for many Notes conferences because
newsgroups cannot store information permanently.  I agree that many internal
Notes conferences have been supplanted by newsgroups, but those internal
conferences whose information is ill-suited to newsgroups will remain.

Maybe the Red Sox newsgroup can be used in place of the Red Sox Notes
conference, but I can't imagine using a newsgroup in place of conferences like
OpenVMS or DIGITAL.

I also can't imagine that someone who valued Notes wouldn't figure out a way to
access conferences from their PC.

Paul

    
    	Paul, are you trying to say that most people look for previously
    	posted information in a conference that already answers their
    	question, instead of asking it again [and again]?
    
    	I'd like to read a couple of those conferences to see what I've
    	been missing all these years.
    

>    	Paul, are you trying to say that most people look for previously
>    	posted information in a conference that already answers their
>    	question, instead of asking it again [and again]?

You never see the people that found what they were looking for, only
the subset that didn't look (or couldn't find the info)...

    re: .88
>You never see the people that found what they were looking for, only
>the subset that didn't look (or couldn't find the info)...
    
    Or the people reared on newsgroups who think NOTES conferences are just
    the same thing and never developed the "look first before posting" clue.

Spamming hasn't hit notesfiles yet.  There's so much spam out there in
(at least) non-technical news groups that it makes them almost unusable.

    Re: .90
    
    Plus if you post, junk emailers snarf up your email address from
    the header, and you then get a lot of garbage in your inbox.
    

    
    I really depend on many Notesfiles to do my work.
    
    I have a bunch of dir/title list files in a work directory...
    for UNIX.NOTES, all the IBMPC NOTES, storage-related, ASE,
    compiler, platform, various software tools, etc., etc., etc., 
    and I update those files maybe about once a month.  
    
    Whenever I need info, I just search those files for topics,
    and check out relevant notes.  If it's not answered, I post
    it in the closest note that attempts to discuss the topic,
    if one exists.
    
    It is of in-calcuable benefit that I can get information from
    those conferences.  Getting the same sort of archived information 
    from newsgroups is virtually impossible.
    
    Newsgroups are great for current events, but terrible for those
    of us wishing to learn about something after most of the 
    "newbie" topics have been discussed (and FAQ's are hardly good
    replacements).
    
    I really find almost no use for newgroups, precisely because they
    contain only current discussions.
    
    - Sean

    
    	Only problem I have with notes is Non-Descriptive titles. There
    might be a similar topic, but DIR/TITLE=XYZ doesn't find it.
    	Is there anything inside Digital, like the Microsoft home page?
    Specifially the knowledge based search? I'm currently working with
    MS-Sqlserver and have found a lot of useful information looking through
    the Microsoft knowledge base for SQL.
    
    Ron

    Try Comet at http://encke.alf.dec.com/cgi/v4.3 or internal AltaVista at
    http://altavista.pa.dec.com or AltaVista Notes at
    http://altavista.notes.lkg.dec.com:8000/
    
    I use them all & think they're great.
    
    Roy

    I disagree with Paul.  Newsgroups have been around quite a while, even
    if the volume of trafic has dramatically increased.  While they have
    good, and mostly poor uses, they don't come close to replacing notes
    for what internal people have come to depend on them for:
    
    	o Internal discussions that do not need to be filtered for
    	  public discussion.
    	o Technical information and exchange between internal groups and
    	  individuals.
    	o Long term (archival) information that persists more than days
    	  or weeks.
    	o Lower signal-to-noise.  This conference has the highest noise
    	  content than any other I follow, which tend to be very focused
    	  technical conferences.  And I can skip a week in this conference
    	  and catch up in an hour or two.  And while the audience is
    	  smaller, asking a question in a internal recreational notesfile
    	  usually results in more meaningful discussion that a rec.xxx,
          or alt.xxx conference (alt.smoking.cigars excepted ;-).
    
    If there is a decline in notefile activity, I believe it is related
    more to the shrinkage of the company, and the change in culture of less
    "traditional" DECCies who cut their teeth on PDP-11's, DEC 10's and
    20's,  VAXes, VMS, RSX, TOPS, RSTS, and ULTRIX/Digital UNIX.  And
    instead are PC folks, and NT folks.  As VAXes are shutdown, people
    forced to EXCHANGE, and are more familiar with (say) Win95 than with
    X11 - it's only natural.
    
    Heck, I refuse to use the X11 notes interface, and still use a
    character cell interface.
    
    I've not seen a internet forum, or a web-based replacement for what
    notes provides.  I'll miss it.
    
    

    Re: .93 titles
    
    Try the search command instead.  That looks at the bodies
    of messages.  Be sure to specify 1.*-99999.* and not just
    1-99999 or it will only search the first note in each tree,
    not the replies.
    

    re: Note 4852.92 by WONDER::REILLY
    
    > I really find almost no use for newgroups, precisely because they
    > contain only current discussions.
    
    Try using DejaNews ( http://www.dejanews.com ).
    
    
    re: .95
    
    We could have internal-only newsgroups, with no article expiration.
    
    Ken....

re:.97

	SEARCH on a Notesfile is rather time consuming. You're
	better off with AltaVista Notes. MUCH faster.

RE: >84

	Try ISVNET::NETNOTES. I think that's the notesfile.

	I *think* that Digital has a corporate license to the
	server and client software.

							mike

    I think being paranoid is appropriate.

    It isn't paranoia when they really are out to get you.

>    It isn't paranoia when they really are out to get you.

	OK after all these psychiatric treatements, now I know that I'm not
	a seed corn but do the pigeons know it?

	Sorry I could not resist.
	Joel

    http://vaxcpu.zko.dec.com:8080/top-noters

    The one thing that the Net can't offer is the SECURITY of noting
    that is provided within our DEC culture.  

    What security?  About the only security I can think of is that someone
    who threatens you in writing might get fired.  The tradeoff is freedom.
    Don't say anything that could be used against the company in court;
    don't try to sell tickets even at face value; don't campaign for seats
    on the DCU board.
    
    Tony

I didn't mean to imply Usenet newgroups are a "perfect" replacement for 
Notes, but only the realization of movement toward the lowest common 
demoninator.  The change-over is gradual with the almost complete 
conversion of recreational Notesfiles to newsgroups, followed lastly by 
Digital-specific technical discussion which may remain in Notesfile for 
quite sometime.

Newgroups have been around for quite sometime.  The recent change is ease 
of access to the net.  As the famous TV comercial implies, Internet access 
is now so easy that even your *mother* can get on the 'net.


							-Paul

I'd like to reply about the "safe" aspect. I really appreciate that
in notes there "are" limits to what people can say. There is little
anyone can say that will shock me in a newsgroup, but I sure get
tired of all the "boys" who feel personal attacks, abusive language
and just general nastiness are appropriate in conversations. It
certainly gives one a rather frightening picture of what some men
are like. And before you say it, yes, nearly all the persons who
I've observed acting that way were men. liesl

    re .105
    
    My mother _is_ on the net...

> I sure get tired of all the "boys" who feel personal attacks, abusive
> language and just general nastiness are appropriate in conversations.
> It certainly gives one a rather frightening picture of what some men
> are like. And before you say it, yes, nearly all the persons who I've
> observed acting that way were men. liesl

Men are definitely a crude and brutish lot. They are made to wear neckties so
that they can be throttled when they get out of line. Even so, civilizing them
has proved problematic at best in most cases.

re.108 - Ah, that's the problem with newsgroups. All those men without
ties are allowed to participate. :*) liesl

> And before you say it, yes, nearly all the persons who
> I've observed acting that way were men. liesl

And your point is... ???

...she's a normal healthy woman who spends more time observing men than
observing women.

    re.111:
    
    John, tztztz...what's this "normal healthy woman" supposed to be?
    
    Guenther

Why, she's the "Wicked Wench of the Web"!

			Steve

Well, since Gunther and Steve both know me personally I'll refer
all questions about what I am (as opposed to what I should be)
to them. :*)

Are you SURE you want to do that, Liesl? :-)

			Steve

RE: .80

OSTECH's NetNotes also has a NT-based server.

--PSW

RE: .116

	I mentioned this in .83

							mike