Conference 7.286::digital

    	Well, "we" have no plans to exit the software business.  The
    Fortran team is quite excited about this entry into the Intel
    software world, and the interest has been nothing short of
    staggering.  There is an enormous amount of legacy Fortran code
    out there, enough to last a lifetime (or two) - and there is no
    simple way to convert it to VB or C++ or anything else.  That
    market is looking for a way to AVOID converting, but have modern
    tools to keep improving their applications.  We are optimistic
    that our Fortran has a bright future there.
    
    Cheers!
    Dave Eklund
    

    
    How the hell did this get through the Software Engineering PPP?
    
    By PPP I mean Product Prevention Process, the process that takes a
    perfectly reasoned case for resources to complete a goal, trims 25% off
    at the start, 25% off during the course of the development and then
    wonders why customers arnt buying, therefore ensuring that you cant get
    adequate funding for the next version of the product to even occur.
    
    This is a really good thing (despite my ever being underwhelmed by the
    language itself). It says that some people can still see a market
    opportunity in a niche space, get it through a system riddled with
    insecurity and lack of confidence, and produce something that is, given
    sensibole execution, potential a positive item for Digital's bottom
    line.
     
    Management needs to stand back and look at the dynamics of these kinds
    of things. They may actually get a clue about how we can succeed in
    software, which is something we must do, for both the long haul
    viability of the business both downstream, hardware and networking, and
    upstream, in services.
    
    Just a question, do we have the right to develop for the Microsoft
    visual environment in other languages or is FORTRAN it?
    
    
    - John
    

$set Flame /ON  (if you still know VMS)

..... and it makes it easier to move away from VMS to wonderful NT
      because we make so much money on NT....

$Set Flame/OFF


Erik

    ohohoho  
    
    a customer just rang me and said:
    
    "I have heard about this visual fortran. We are migrating from vax to
    alpha and have an application on the  vax written in Fortran  we need
    to port to alpha. This visual fortran sounds great. Does it run on VMS?
    Or do we have to go to nt?"
    
    So what do I tell him?
    
    ..Kevin..

At last Wednesday's Microsoft Developer Days event in Columbus, Ohio, I
was working in the DIGITAL booth.  A large majority of the 850+ in
attendance saw the Visual Fortran signage and wanted more information
(unfortunately there wasn't any marketing information on this product
included with the other handouts.) 

Also the Microsoft booth was next to ours and they were telling the
attendees that they were discontuning Microsoft Fortran PowerStation 4.0
and recommending that people look at Digital Visual Fortran for Windows
NT/95. 

From conversations, it appears that many, many "mainframe" applications
are written in Fortran and major companies are seriously looking at
moving these apps to Windows NT and this new DIGITAL product will be the
ticket.  And to confirm what was written previously, these folks have
*no* desire to rewrite these apps in Visual Basic or C++ or anything
else. 

This product *WILL* fill a much needed nitch... So lets tell the world
and not bounce this message around internally!!! 

Cloyce

OpenVMS Ambassador & NT Wizard
    

    According to the Digital Visual Fortran Getting Started document the
    Operating systems are "Windows 95 or Windows NT Version 4 (or higher).

    Many scientific, engineering, and technical applications - which 
    currently run on VMS or one of the UNIX environments - will 
    probably be re-examined in light of this development.
    
    I think it will be highly successful! Thanks to the team that
    did it!
    
    Steve
    

        FWIW, I'm very interested in this product also. I never figured
        out why the fanfare over all that 'pointer' stuff in C/C++ :-)
    
        It will be available for internal purchase on April 18; if you're
        interested, here are the part numbers to order:
    
        QB-5LCAA-SA Digital Visual Fortran Std. Version 5.0
        QA-5LCAA-GZ "       "      "       Multiple Doc. Kit
    
        - Dave 

    re .1
    "we have no plans to exit the software business."
    
    I think this is part of the problem. Two months ago our sales force
    would have told a customer the same thing about our middleware
    products. The would have adamantly assured a prospect that we, DIGITAL,
    are firmly committed etc etc. Now these folks feel like they have egg
    on their faces [please correct me if I'm wrong here].
    
    I understand that the SLT/BP can't exactly take the entire sales force
    aside and tell them confidentially that they might want to "go easy on
    the middleware 'cause somethings in the wind". At the same time the
    SLT/BP seem to feel that some of these product might be better accepted
    in the industry if they didn't come from DIGITAL, so they sell.
    
    Since we have some cash, maybe we should be spinning these into
    subsiduries (either whole or owned in partnership with someone) to
    achieve that independance - as in AltaVista?
    
    r
    

RE: .3

	There is already a fine Fortran available for Alpha OpenVMS.
	If they WANT to migrate to NT, then Visual Fortran is it.
	If they want to migrate from OpenVMS/VAX to OpenVMS/Alpha, 
	then use the fortran for that platform.

							mike

   >.5:    a customer just rang me and said:
   > 
   > "I have heard about this visual fortran. We are migrating from vax to
   > alpha and have an application on the  vax written in Fortran  we need
   > to port to alpha. This visual fortran sounds great. Does it run on VMS?
   > Or do we have to go to nt?"
   > 
   > So what do I tell him?
    
    DIGITAL Visual Fortran uses the same compiler as DIGITAL Fortran on 
    UNIX and OpenVMS Alpha. 
    
    See http://www.digital.com/fortran

    re .9 .10
    
    yes yes yes, I told him that, but of course he wanted to know, which
    was the best way for him to go, VMS or WNT :-)
    
    I told him it depended on his business perspectives for the
    application, and that he should join ASAP to get qualified advice on
    the porting problems.
    
    ..Kevin.. 

    
    re .11
    
    Since the customer asked, why not just answer "go OpenVMS/Alpha"
    and ask for their order?
    
    I'm assuming we have higher margin on OpenVMS... without the risk
    the customer will price shop and buy [NT] from Dell. Leave the 
    objectivity to Andersen Consulting, Garner, et all. 
        
    
    
    

    	The "Visual" part of Visual Fortran really pertains to
    the environment that is soon to be available for our
    Fortran product on Intel platforms.  We have been selling various
    DEC Fortran and Fortran 90 products across the various Alpha
    platforms for some time (including AVMS, Unix, and AWNT).  This
    is our first foray on Intel, and it happens to include a Visual
    environment developed by Microsoft.  A comparable environment
    will be provided later this year on Alpha (WNT).
    
    	In terms of customers coming from a VAX, my personal advice
    is to look at whether AVMS is the best choice - especially if the
    code depends heavily upon VMS system calls, for example.  This
    is just the most natural and simple migration for large Fortran
    applications.  Maybe not politically correct, but it certainly
    should be the easiest transition.  As far as Fortran is concerned,
    there are only very small differences from a language standpoint
    across the various platforms (for example, indexed files are only
    on AVMS).  So ANY transition is theoretically possible - it is
    largely a matter of what the customer finds most appropriate in
    OTHER areas than Fortran.
    
    	The main reason that the Fortran software would NOT get 
    spun off is that it plays a rather central role in SPEC ratings
    which still play a very important part in pushing hardware.  If
    Fortran got sold off, it would be more difficult to continue to
    produce superlative SPEC ratings...
    
    Cheers!
    Dave Eklund
    

    r.e .7
    >
    >        FWIW, I'm very interested in this product also. I never figured
    >        out why the fanfare over all that 'pointer' stuff in C/C++ :-)
    >        It will be available for internal purchase on April 18; if
    >	     you're interested, here are the part numbers to order:
    >
    >        QB-5LCAA-SA Digital Visual Fortran Std. Version 5.0
    >        QA-5LCAA-GZ "       "      "       Multiple Doc. Kit
    
    Note people wishing to sell this product the words "available for
    internal purchase". The product has external components that require
    royalties be paid, so...
    
    you have to purchase a copy so you can demo it. It seems like there
    were no internal rights negotiated for demonstration purposes.
    
    Given I'm not goaled to sell our software, it is unlikely my cost
    centre will pay for this. I find it extraordinary that part of the
    development plan did not include negotiation of x number of internal
    licenses for demo purposes or a royalty waiver from Microsoft when used
    by ourselves or our business partners in the sales process.
    
    
    - John
    
    
    
    
    
    

And how big is the royalty...  Certainly much less than the very
reasonable list price I'd guess.

    I'm in REO today, having attended the MS Developer Days events in
    London and Birmingham, England, so I'm just catching up on this note.
    I have two comments to make:
    
    1.  We are folding the MS extensions that we added into the UNIX and
    OpenVMS compilers and RTLs (where it makes sense), so that there is ONE
    language dialect "from laptops to teraflops".  This message goes over
    VERY well with users and has the potential of leveraging large Alpha
    system sales from customers who want to "move up" without rewriting
    their applications.
    
    2.  We're aware of the "internal order" issues and are looking at ways
    of addressing it.
    
    There's a large (for us, anyyway) market of PC Fortran users out there,
    one which we expect to grow.  Already the response to our announcement
    has been overwhelmingly enthusiastic (indeed, our biggest problem right
    now is getting the resellers to admit knowing about DVF, even though
    we've been working with them for months in preparation.)
    
    It looks as if we'll have a hit on our hands - one which put's
    Digital's (oops, DIGITAL's) name in front of thousands of NEW
    customers.  Can't hurt!
    
    				Steve

    
>    It looks as if we'll have a hit on our hands - one which put's
>    Digital's (oops, DIGITAL's) name in front of thousands of NEW
>    customers.  Can't hurt!

Steve,

  Who's going to be doing that?  What are the sales channels for this product?

ac

    The primary sales channel is independent resellers, with wholesale
    distribution through Ingram Micro and Merisel (two companies which
    supply most of the retailers.)  One end-reseller we've set up to be
    first "out of the gate" is SciTech International, which Microsoft told
    us moved the most PowerStation Fortran for them (www.scitechint.com).
    But it took longer for them to get up to speed than we thought.
    
    I would also expect it to be available from places like Programmers
    Paradise (I spoke to their VP at the Boston DevDays) and QBS in the UK.
    I doubt you'll see it on the shelf at CompUSA, but that's not our call
    - basically, the retailers decide which products they want to carry. 
    If enough customers ask, they'll get it.
    
    We will also sell direct if a customer insists, but they'll get a
    better price through a reseller.  There are also a couple of places
    gearing up to sell DVF "on the web".
    
    Right now, the biggest problem is identifying which resellers are ready
    to take orders for the product, but we're working hard on that.
    
    			Steve

    You never know quite what you'll see on the retail shelves. I happened
    to be in the local Byte Shop a week or two ago and something on the
    programmer's shelf caught my eye: Visual C++ V2 for Alpha AXP. I wonder
    how long it had been there... I look forward to seeing Digital Visual
    Fortran there instead!

    BRAVO ... nice to end the week on a bright note!

re .13 Dave,

"The main reason that the Fortran software would NOT get 
    spun off is that it plays a rather central role in SPEC ratings
    which still play a very important part in pushing hardware.  If
    Fortran got sold off, it would be more difficult to continue to
    produce superlative SPEC ratings..."

Be aware you have little or no control of who may give away, never mind 
sell off your valuable work to sweeten another deal. Software is an easy 
victim in DIGITAL these days.

The more you believe you would NOT be spun off the harder the fall you will
take when you (hopefully not) are.


Bob 

>>    	The main reason that the Fortran software would NOT get 
>>    spun off is that it plays a rather central role in SPEC ratings
>>    which still play a very important part in pushing hardware.  If
>>    Fortran got sold off, it would be more difficult to continue to
>>    produce superlative SPEC ratings...

Like those superlative OpenVMS/Rdb TPC numbers?  Funny, that didn't seem to
keep Rdb around.  Not that I'm paranoid or anything.

						Brian

    	Me?  Control?!  Hardly.  I figure that is we are not successful
    with Fortran, well, then we are all in even bigger trouble than I
    can imagine.  I don't worry about such things.  If we ARE successful,
    either this will help with turning around this company OR we will
    prosper in whatever company ends up peddling this Fortran.
    
    	Hey, life is far too short to worry about disaster scenarios.
    I've observed that those who keep their heads down and continue to
    work in spite of the chaos around them somehow manage to do enough
    good things that their products continue to flourish.  Those who
    get caught up in doomsday thoughts help to bring it on.  In the
    long term the former always end up on their feet, while the latter
    primarily hurt only themselves...
    
    	Gotta go fix a few bugs and implement a few neat features...
    Challenges to meet, no heavy lifting, and still a few fine products
    to improve.  It's a great life if you don't weaken!       
    
    Cheers!
    Dave Eklund
    
    

Note that the most valuable assets of a company - hence those most
salable - are those which are sold off first.

The first thing Frank Lorenzo did when he took over Eastern Airlines was
to sell off the airline reservation system. It was the most profitable
branch of the corporation. Then he sold off the most lucrative routes.
You know where Eastern Airlines is today.

> a week or two ago and something on the programmer's shelf caught my eye: 
> Visual C++ V2 for Alpha AXP. I wonder how long it had been there... 

	I hope it's been there a while...  The lastest versions of
	Visual C++ for Alpha that I know of are V4.1 (retail) and V4.2 
	(beta).  The Intel version recently went to V5.0.

RE: .24

>    can imagine.  I don't worry about such things.  If we ARE successful,
>    either this will help with turning around this company OR we will
>    prosper in whatever company ends up peddling this Fortran.
>    
>    	Hey, life is far too short to worry about disaster scenarios.
>    I've observed that those who keep their heads down and continue to
>    work in spite of the chaos around them somehow manage to do enough
>    good things that their products continue to flourish.  Those who
>    get caught up in doomsday thoughts help to bring it on.  In the
>    long term the former always end up on their feet, while the latter
>    primarily hurt only themselves...
 
Dave, I just wanted to applaud this philosophy.  Thank you for stating it
so well.

That is how I have been living my life for some time now: keep my head 
down, and do my job the best I know how, and don't worry about the actions
above me.  I have been through at least 10 re-organizations in my 7+
years in the field, and you know what?  My job has not changed in the
slightest little bit.  I work with some different Sales Reps, and I have
some different customers than I did 7 years ago, and the tools I use are
very different (HiNote Ultra PC on the Internet rather than a VT220 on
an ALL-IN-1 cluster), but that is minor.  I do exactly the same job, with 
the same goals and the same work, even though the organization around me
is *totally* different than it was, even though I have had 6-8 different
managers (one of whom was my manager for 9 months, during which she did
an outstanding job including an accurate salary review, but in all that
time we never met face-to-face), and even though my working environment 
has changed dramatically.

I am *not* advocating an ostrich approach to organizational change.  As
I said in the note around the new agreement (or compact) between the
company and the employee, every employee is an adult who needs to be aware
of things that are happening around them, to let them plan for their own
survival and prosperity.  But it does mean that we should evaluate the
organization above us, how it is changing, and seeing how/if those changes
truly affect us.  My suggestion is that in the majority of cases (and
this is unfortunate), those changes have no effect on the employees.

As an example, look at one of the major re-organizations in the last few
years: the breakup and then merge of the ABU/SBU.  Big announcements how
each of these was the best structure in order to make it easier for our
customers to do business with Digital, and lots of upset people everywhere.
You know what it meant to me?  I had a new boss, and if I needed help
from my fellow support people I had to remember which manager to call.
And when the merge happened, I got a new boss, and all of us worked for
the same manager, so it made it simpler to remember which manager to call
when I needed help... :^)  That was it.  

As another example, I remember at least 3 major announcements about how 
we have changed advertising agencies, and now, finally, at last, Digital 
will solve its perception problems and become known throughout the industry.  
Anyone notice anything?

People need to dispassionately evaluate how the changes *really* affect 
their day-to-day job, and then react to the changes.  I believe that in 
too many cases the changes may effect a few people in the GMA, but mean 
very little in the field.

In a way I am sorry to say this, because it means that the SLT and other
senior managers are unable to substantively change the organization at
the grass-roots level, where it often needs to change.  But in another
way I understand that no organization will totally change the way we work.

Engineers design and build products.  They may have a lot of freedom in
their design, or they may be told what to build.  They may have solid
information about competitive products, or they may have nothing.  They 
may have the latest and greatest tools, or they may buy their own pads
of paper and pencils at the grocery store with their own money.  But they
still design and build products.

Sales Reps and Support people sell products to customers.  They may have
a pervasive corporate advertising campaign directly focused on their
customers, or they may have dead silence in the mass and targeted media.
They may be able to sell any product, or they may only get credit for a
few products.  They may get massive support in terms of glossies, 
product demos, free loan of products, road shows, presence in trade shows
where we can bring customers, or they may have to dig through the Internet
on their own time to find the simplest information.  But they still deal
with customers as the 80%+ of their jobs.

And so on for every major function in this and every company.  The jobs
don't change just because the organization changes.  It may get easier,
it may get harder, but the job fundamentally remains the same.

-- Ken Moreau

    > I've observed that those who keep their heads down and continue to
    > work in spite of the chaos around them somehow manage to do enough
    > good things that their products continue to flourish.  Those who
    > get caught up in doomsday thoughts help to bring it on.
    
    Well you can play blame-the-victim if it makes you feel better.
    Those of us who survied the sell-off the the POLYCENTER products
    to CA know how things happen in the real world.
    

    Visual C++ 5.0 and Visual Basic 5.0 for Alpha are near the end of their 
    beta test, will be released within a month or so. 
    
    				Steve

    >>
    Visual C++ 5.0 and Visual Basic 5.0 for Alpha are near the end of their 
    beta test, will be released within a month or so. 
    >>
    
    Steve,
    
    Thx for info. As a suggestion, when the official packages are
    available, perhaps we could get our MS Alliance folks to convince MS to
    post a press release on their web page? Also, mentioning platforms at
    such places as Tech Ed etc would be great exposure.
    
    Showing a Cust a press release with the MS header is much more
    convincing than one with a DIGITAL header.
    
    Regards,
    
    / Kerry    
    

Send your suggestions regarding Visual C and Visual Basic to Eric Getsinger
(DECWET::GETSINGER).  If you want MS-headed press releases about DIGITAL Visual
Fortran, see http://www.microsoft.com/fortran (click on the headline for the
full release.)

				Steve

    re .9  Mike,
    
    	It's a pity the real good stuff in Vax Fortran didn't make it into
    AVMS fortran, eg parallel support.
    
    Steve.

It is making its way into Alpha UNIX Fortran, though in the same sort of stages
that it did on VAX.  We COULD do it on OpenVMS, but there's no funding to do
so.  However, there is a parallel Fortran solution on OpenVMS Alpha today
with KAP.  If someone wants to come through with the dollars, now that OpenVMS
has kernel thread support, it would be possible.  Cathy (TEAMLK::) Ward is the
product manager.

					Steve