Conference 7.286::digital

Well, these are one one kind of video game...albeit deadly.

From Aviation Week and Space Technology, May 4, 1992:

Air Force acquisition officials want to replace Motorola, Inc., processors on 
the Joint-STARS aircraft with Raytheon/Digital high-speed processors, but the 
Army is opposed to the idea because it is using Motorola computers. Grumman 
Melbourne Systems had contracted with Motorola to upgrade the display 
processors on the aircraft and then decided to stop that work and shift to 
Raytheon's Mil Vax 920, according to industry sources. The 920 is based on 
Digital Equipment Corp.'s new 64-bit, reduced instruction set computer chip 
named Alpha. The shift from Motorola's 68040 chip to the Raytheon Mil Vax 920 
on the Joint Surveillance Target Attack Radar System (Joint-STARS) aircraft 
has been reviewed by the Air Force. Industry officials said the Air Force 
favors the change but the Army, which is using Motorola chips in its ground
modules for Joint-STARS, is concerned about compatibility. An Army/Air Force 
team will reevaluate the proposed shift to Raytheon's processor and report 
within 30 days.

Also posted in ALPHANOTES conference.

    
    The new generation of video games that will be coming out will be
    motion picture video games. I believe they will be run by 32 bit
    processors. (It's about time)
    
    The video game industry is hopelessly behind in technology.
    A 64 bit game system would be incredible.

    Is the data set for video games so large that a 64-bit address space is
    needed?   Why would a 64 bit game system be better than a 32-bit game
    system?

    Well, you can sure tell the difference between 8 and 16...
    
    Think large.  Video games of tomorrow will be based on Virtual
    Reality technology being developed today.
    
    Wasn't it that PBS program recently that said the main problem with
    doing VR is the amount of processing power that it requires?
    
    --Scott

    You people just don't get it, do you?

    You know Digital just expects Sega and Nintendo to walk in, impressed
    by Alpha-hype and plunk down cash, and next Christmas there's
    Alpha-based games under the Christmas tree.

    Digital doesn't have any methods that will show in an objective way
    which markets demonstrate the kind of potential that would be a reason
    to push cash into a group that would develop applications for Alpha
    that would have a payback in several years.

    Digital is driven by powerful egos whose experience in computing is
    rooted in the mentality of timesharing and minicomputers.

    How much has Digital changed from that day 15 years ago when internal
    proposals for personal computers were brought before the executive
    committee.

At least Apple have the foresight to talk with Nintendo. All but an
insignifant niche of microprocessors will be embedded in consumer
electronics machines in the next 5-10 years. Software is but a part
of the device.

We're then into new opportunities in publishing and interpersonal comms.

I'm just amazed by the lack of coverage to Apples' Newton here at the moment.
I can think of no other device that will have so profound an effect on
everything from Kodak to Newspapers/magazines to, well, most things I come
into contact with... it just needs the comms infrastructure around it and
volume sale pricing to realise its potential. Sigh.

In the meantime, we've still got a lot to learn from the Nintendo of today.
As a game, when I did all the best in class work in preparation for next
years Software Business, I tried to map out the cost infrastructure of
Nintendo UK as well. They are slick!
								- Ian W.

    Taking a slightly different dimension to reply .5.
    
    More than ten years ago I tried to sell an Engineering Logic Simulation
    system to the then leading electronic hand held toy manufacturer. This
    manufacturer design decisions were absolutely market driven and would
    VIOLATE ALL GENERALLY ACCEPTED ENGINEERING PRINCIPLES if that meant
    producing a toy at the right price in the right package to be a market
    winner.
    
    If good PC board layout practice said the the etch runs had to have
    minimum separation of .050 inches and this manufacturer needed to get
    more runs in than there was space for they just jammed them all in and
    reduced the separation.
    
    Needless to say none Digital's highly promoted engineering virtues was
    of any value to this manufacturer and I did not make the sale.

    This would be a great idea, Atari is rumored to be working on a 64 bit
    gaming system - code named panther. The folks to push this are in the 
    TOEM part of Sunshine 60 (the Tokyo office). Last fall I spoke with 
    the VP of DEC Japan (who was very interested in the idea) and some of
    his folks who also were interested. With the ULCA (Ultra Low Cost
    Alpha) chip pricing could be economical as well. 
    
    John

Posted from VNS... 
    
 Sony, Sega - Plan movielike video games
	{The Wall Street Journal, 20-May-92, p. B1}
   Sony and Sega are expected to announce plans to produce the next generation
 of video games, featuring live actors, stereo sound and movie-like story
 lines. Sega and Sony executives wouldn't comment, but sources familiar with
 the two companies said the agreement and more details will be announced before
 next week's Summer Consumer Electronics Show in Chicago. Sega yesterday
 unveiled plans for Sega CD, a new CD video-game machine that goes far beyond
 the speed and capabilities of current 8-bit and 16-bit video-game players.
 Sony, too, will make CD game systems. Its Play Station is scheduled to be
 introduced in the U.S. in the first half of 1993. It is expected to play
 16-bit cartridges as well as CDs, but it's unclear whether Play Station will
 be compatible with all Sega CD software. Sega's system will be priced first
 at $299 (including three game disks and an audio CD album). Nintendo's
 director of marketing, William White, said Nintendo will launch its CD system
 with full-motion capability. "We will hit the market with full motion and a
 $200 price," said Mr. White. Sega's Mr. Kalinske said Nintendo won't begin
 shipping its CD video game until after August 1993. Mr. White said only that
 the company would update launch plans for the CD system at the Chicago
 electronics show. Sega says that it will begin shipping CD game players to
 U.S. stores in late October and that 20 CD titles will be available in the
 fall from Sega and third-party licensees, with 18 more titles coming out next
 spring. While CD games can carry more than 100 times the memory capacity of
 conventional game cartridges, Sega's CD games still have the slightly jerky
 look of video that runs at 15 frames a second. Sega won't have full-motion
 video capability for another year.

    As any game addict knows - bigger faster CPU's and larger faster
    memories are ALWAYS in demand.....
    
    It makes for much better games.

    I didn't have any question about why a *faster* CPU could produce a
    better game.  My question concerned the effects of 32-bit vs 64-bit
    addressing spaces.

    Games - the only useful purpose for a computer.

    more memory (without the overhead of memory management) the better the
    game.

    more bits -> more depth in pictures

    re: 1917.10 by CHRCHL::GERMAIN "Improvise! Adapt! Overcome!"

>    As any game addict knows - bigger faster CPU's and larger faster
>    memories are ALWAYS in demand.....
    
    Sorry, but you're way off the mark here.  If you ask the statistical
    "average" game addict, he won't have *any* idea about bigger faster
    CPU's or memories.  The "average" game addict is about 14 years old.
    He may know the buzzwords "16-bit" vs. "8-bit", but other than that
    he doesn't know and doesn't care.  He knows Nintendo and Sega.
    
    The people who make these games will use Alpha if it is cost-efficient
    and it supports the company's market objective.  Otherwise Alpha is
    just another lump of impure sand to them.
    
    Geoff

   I don't know.  But with ALPHA chips running around $1K each at this
   time, I don't think Nintendo, Sega nor Atari is going to be real
   interested at this time.

>But with ALPHA chips running around $1K each at this
>   time,

Sure;  Right now.  But we should be planning & doing!  These chips
aren't going to cost 1K forever.  If we want these chips to be used
tomorrow, we better start trying to get people to use them today.

An Alpha in every PC by the end of the century!

--Scott

    I hope I am wrong,  But I heard third hand today (take it for what it
    is worth)  that ALPHA is allready out of date and that someone else
    has come out with a chip that is better..    As I said, Third hand
    and CNN had nothing to say about it......

 .18>  I hope I am wrong,  But I heard third hand today (take it for what it
 .18>  is worth)  that ALPHA is allready out of date and that someone else
 .18>  has come out with a chip that is better..    As I said, Third hand
 .18>  and CNN had nothing to say about it......
    
    I'm amazed someone would bother typing this in. Your hope is realized. 
    

    re .18
    
    Uh, you wouldn't be talking about the "announcement" of IBM's
    new superfast RISC chip that's been going round the net, would
    you?   The chip that can execute instructions in negative
    time?   So you get the answers before you've even written
    the program...
    

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't someone in BYTE magazine say something
to the effect that you needed the power of a 11/780 to run the Alpha chip?
Whether this is true or not, I haven't a clue (someone brought in the mag 
one day).

If it is true, it may be sometime before home entertainment video games 
(and pc's as well) start using the chip.

    
    Obviously someone doesn't have a clue.
    
    

    I dunno.  I've operated arc welders that use less power than a '780.mwr

    i read some where that due to the fast speed, a large watt needed for
    keeping the timing logic in synch, i think it is said 20 watt for that
    part of the chip is needed.
    
    offcourse , you ed more than 20 watts to run a 780.
    
    /Nasser
    

    Digital Japan Sales has started the process of talking to Nintendo
    about Alpha.  The TOEM Organization is involved in the process of 
    educating Nintendo and other customers about the Alpha chip products.
    
    Nintendo is interested and will need lots of information on our future
    Alpha chips and Architecture before they make a decision about a 64 bit
    chip.  I believe that this is really an Architecture sell and not a
    product sell.  Since Nintendo may want to adapt the Alpha Architecture
    for the specific use in vidio games.  This is how I am recommending
    that we approach companies like Nintendo about Alpha.
    
    -marc
    
                                      

    Thank you Mark. It's nice to know we are chasing every opportunity,
    not just for short term results, but also for future architectural
    opportunities.
    
    Cheers,
    
    JfK

    It's warmer than the chips that "PC" vendors are used to dealing with,
    but it's really not all that bad.. 
    
    ...tom

    Cmon folks can we cut the potentially damaging rumors about alpha
    chips. A quick check of the commonly available literature will show,
    that the 150Mhz 21064-AA runs at a typical 23 watts. more than most,
    but hardly something you wan't to fry an egg on. 
    
    q
    

    OK....I deleted it.
    
    Mark

    Alpha and Nintendo? Hmmm... does this mean we'll be getting a break on
    Nintendo games? my kids'll be thrilled!
    
    Ken

    re .-1
    Why does this happen every time there is mention of a DEC relationship
    with Vendor X. We have an alliance with Apple, so the immediate
    question is "How do I get a cheap MAC", we install systems in Toy's R
    Us, everyone wants to know why we shouldn't get a discount on toys. 
    How about what you can do for DEC, not what you can get from it's
    partners.
    
    q
    

    Since Toys-r-us deals in Nintendo,I think we should get a DOUBLE
    discount!
    
    Ken

    Since DEC deals in Alpha chips, we should get DEC stock cheap.
    
    Whoops!	:-(

    We do, we are paying less for it than we were a year ago...
    
    q
    
    

Folks,
There is work inside Digital which is trying to apply our existing technology
in the videogame market.  Since the cost of the technology is too expensive
for home right now, we are targeting the arcade market, but as costs drop
the technology could migrate to the home markets.  We are even talking to a
major player in the business to get this idea off the ground.  Unfortunately
it has reached a chicken-and-egg scenario, both sides are interested in the
idea but neither are willing put up the investment to get beyond the concept
stage.  I would rather not get into the idea any further in a public notes file, 
but if anyone is interested in more details, feel free to contact me through 
mail.

Help is needed to take the idea any further, you can imagine attempting to
get management support for developing videogames inside Digital.  It doesn't
matter that its a four BILLION dollar industry that we are ignoring.  We have 
technology which can blow the doors off anything in the market and use this
as a stepping stone in the development of a multi-media market.

What is needed right now is a managment organization willing to provide
support for an innovative idea during the current chaos and turmoil inside 
Digital.  This idea doesn't fit any organization's charter, but innovative
ideas NEVER fit ANYONE's charter.

The idea speaks for itself, if anyone is interested in reviewing a preliminary
business plan, please contact me.  Please forward this message to ANYONE who
may be interested in this idea/technology/market.

Thanx!
Dave Doucette

    As a variation on a theme, it seems to me that the integration of TV
    through the new HDTV format, with home security and other home
    environmental uses, games, home shopping, jeez even Ross's town meeting 
    stuff, would be a natural Alpha power. 
    
    Is anyone working on the HDTV angle? A nice market of tens or hundreds of
    millions of TV's should turn someones head. 
    
    Johnse

  >As a variation on a theme, it seems to me that the integration of TV
  >  through the new HDTV format, with home security and other home
  >  environmental uses, games, home shopping, jeez even Ross's town meeting 
  >  stuff, would be a natural Alpha power. 
  >  Is anyone working on the HDTV angle? A nice market of tens or hundreds of
  >  millions of TV's should turn someones head. 
    
    FROX-TV is an HDTV with windows-like on-screen controls and a slick
    joystick and a SPARCstation II under the hood.
    
    karl
    

    There's an excellent article on the convergence of video games,
    computers and TVs towards IV (Interactive Video) in _Upside May 1992. 
    The article is called "Super Mario Meets Mr. Ed."  Some highlights follow:
    
    
    The following are 1991 estimates for worldwide sales in related markets:
    
    Total TV-related hardare market:		$21 billion
    TV hardware, VCRs camcorders
    
    Total video programming market:		$60 billion
    TV programming, TV advertising, 
    film in theaters, video cassette 
    rentals and sales, cable
    
    Total PC market:				$65 billion
    personal computer hardware, 
    PC software, PC-related (networking ect.) 
    
    Total Video game market:			$11 billion
    video game hardware, software, arcade
    --------------------------------------------------------
    Total Related Market: 			$157 billion
    						and growing
    
    
    "To put things in perspective, Nintendo was selling 8 million 
    8-bit microprocessor-based units per year at its peak in 1988, 
    for a total of more than 30 million units - close to the number
    of installed PC units. In 1990, Nintendo sold more than 3 million
    copies of Gameboy, a handheld LCD display version of their game 
    machine, with 5 million more out the door in 1991. Started about 
    the same time, Nintendo is roughly the same size as Compaq. 
      Watch someone young or old using a Nintendo machine. Armed with 
    only a few buttons or a joystick, a player instantly becomes 
    the proverbial Master of the Universe, moving things around the 
    screen for personal power and satisfaction. Business computer users
    have had years of training to get used to awkward command structures
    and interfaces, which are only now being changed by graphical user
    interfaces [and hopelessly crippled by standards like Motif and X JFN]. 
    A five year old, on the other hand will kick your butt at almost any 
    Nintendo game - a strange social phenomenon. "

    Re .39
    
    :TRUE 
    
    The interactive video, HDTV and computing are the major challenges for
    the electronic companies. The market potential is immense and major
    player are getting together, ie. IBM & Times/Warner.
    
    The information technology ge is picking up speed and movig forward
    looking for applications. Our job is to get those applications and
    technology and services on that moving vehicle.
    
    	hy

    >    FROX-TV is an HDTV with windows-like on-screen controls and a slick
    >    joystick and a SPARCstation II under the hood.
    
    
    Just what is FROX-TV and who makes it??
    
    George

    WOW !  Interest and even a REPLY about FROX-TV.. I've been mentioning
    this thing for MONTHS in various notesfiles.  It's a business I expect
    to be in in 10 years - the integration of cable, computers and HDTV.
    
    karl

                           Mario Paint and Mouse

    Nintendo had begun shipping shipping Mario Paint and Mouse, a new
    software program  incorporating a mouse controller in the videogame
    format for the first time. The program, available only for the 16
    bit Super Nintendo system, also allows the user to store creations
    on a VHS tape. The implications of adding a computer accessory to
    game technology are expected to be far-reaching, bridging the gap
    between the popular TV entertainment device and personal computing.
    "What you are talking about here is a quantum leap in precision and
    control," said Nintendo VP of marketing Peter Main.

    The paint system includes three pens, three shape templates, an air
    bush, a fill paintbush and other features. It carries a $59.95
    suggest retail price. The 256K system memory allows the artist to
    have a "collage" of background drawing, animation, and musical
    score that can be stored on a VHS tape and played on a VCR.

    Nintendo rival Sega also markets a paint game, Art Alive, for its
    16-bit Genesis system, but it uses a conventional controller instead
    of a mouse.
    {Video Business August 21, 1992}
    
    (Copied without permission from Vogon News Service) 

My partner works for Nintendo and has been telling me about Mario Paint.
Last weekend he brought home a copy.  It has the most fun user interface
I've seen.  I'm not interested in video games much, but I really liked
Mario Paint.  The mouse is really nice, too. 

It is so easy to use that a seven-year-old visitor was able to compose
music and do animation immediately, with very little help.  Pretty
good for $59 (plus $99 for a basic Super NES).  So far you can only
save to video, so you can't edit previous work, but a 3.5" disk drive
is ready, if the market demands it.

Last week Nintendo announced a new CD-ROM system (and virtual reality
peripherals) that I think will be available next spring.  And a proprietary
32-bit RISC 3-D graphics co-processor that will reside on Super NES game paks,
available next summer.

Do you think kids growing up on this stuff will be satisfied with anything
less when they get out into the workplace?


Mac

    Heard on the radio this morning that Atari has signed up IBM to
    help them with their next generation of home entertainment/game
    system.
    
    Is Digital pursuing these type of opportunities (with Alpha AXP)?
    

    I don't think IBM would be interested ...  Oooh!  Ow!  It was a joke!
    Lego o' my hair ...
    
    Steve

    	I submitted an IDEA to DELTA with regards to games , but nobody
    	seems to care . Oh well we will keep trying somebody will
    	eventually listen .
    
    
    	Frank Bernal

    
    digital is not interested in the high volume consumer market.

    mr. roberts is, unfortuneately, correct. good, bad, or indifferent,
    thats the way it is.

    Re .49
    
     I thought alpha was to be everywhere? The chip of choice. Has someone
    misinformed me. Someone had better rewrite their presentations. Too
    many mixed messages here.
    
    -Mike Z.

    Alpha everywhere? 

    See my note on the future scenarios for Digital.  There's a real
    important point in .-1 that needs to be understood.  If you don't
    understand it, you don't understand the Digital "as of now".

    Commodity Digital is not interested in assuming risks beyond the
    customer to whom the "chip" is sold.  If there's a fool out there to
    sell Alpha-powered lava lamps, then as long as Digital is paid, then
    whether the concept works out or not is a marginal consideration.
    Commodity Digital has risks, of course, related to the design and
    implementation of technology, however the game for Alpha is easily
    understood: be fast, be cheap, and be everywhere.

    Value Digital (ie end-user CBU's) is out there assuming the risks of
    partnership with integrators, end-users, etc. in the hope of making
    profits. If Value Digital understands the marketplace well, it will
    choose well. If Value Digital adds value that the customer recognizes
    it will be profitable, otherwise there's no reason for its own
    existence.

    Commodity Digital wants Alpha everywhere, but is passive regarding its
    placement, ie it's waiting for the order.

    Value Digital has the job of making investment decisions on where to
    place Alpha to support its segment, if indeed it makes any such
    decisions.  Value Digital doesn't sit back, wait for the order and
    carry it across the hall to Commodity Digital.  That, my fellow
    employees, is not adding value.

    
    re -.1
    

    >>> Commodity Digital is not interested in assuming risks beyond the
    >>> customer to whom the "chip" is sold.  
    
     Then it is commodity Digital who is failing?
    
    >>>  Commodity Digital wants Alpha everywhere, but is passive regarding
    >>>  it's placement, ie it's waiting for the order.
    
     You cannot sit back and wait in this market, you must make things
    happen. Is are marketing campaign still moving along? Rolling Thunder?
    The presentations on Alpha that I have seen do NOT match with the
    messages presented today. Something has changed? Perhaps I
    viewed/listened wrong?
    
    >>>  ... however the game for Alpha is easily
    >>>    understood: be fast, be cheap, and be everywhere.
    
     Commodity Digital is delivering a mixed message.
-Mike Z.

    re: .46-.48 Atari-IBM deal on game machines
    
    This turns out to be an agreement for IBM to manufacture game machines
    for Atari, i.e. be a 3rd party assembly house.  There was no indication
    that IBM had anything to do with the creation of the product.  IBM
    stated they looked forward to getting their feet wet in high-volume
    consumer manufacturing through this deal.
    
    Reportedly some Digital manufacturing plants build products for outside
    companies and bid against assembly houses, too.
    
    Wes

So, if there are great things to be done in the consumer entertainment 
market, are you taking those ideas to the Consumer, Process and Mumble CBU? 
I think we need to give them the ideas and then attack if they don't do 
anything, not claim they don't care.

It is easy to attack the CBUs after all they are one of the few 
organizations that has accountability in Digital right now.  Now if we 
could only get our hands on org charts so we could determine who to propose 
ideas to...

Matt

    I think the proper place for this referral would be to the
    Communications, Electronics, and Media CBU (aka CEM). That group is
    beginning to address, I believe, the intersection of phone, tv, home
    entertainment, and related media technologies.
    
    The 'Consumer' in Consumer, Process, and Transport CBU refers to
    customers who are in the Consumer Packaged Goods business. In general,
    that means people who make stuff that you might buy in a grocery store.
    It does not encompass ALL 'Consumer Goods'.