Conference 7.286::digital

    read 571.0 This has been discussed in detail

    re: 667.1
    
    I think the basenote is addressing a larger issue than was discussed
    in 571.  I work in one of the Digital Corporate Libraries.  My job
    is to organize and make accessible printed materials that would
    help Digital employees do their job better.  What is astounding
    to me is the AMOUNT of internally published materials.  No one seems
    to know where they originate -- they often just appear in envelopes.
    In addition, if materials appear to be parts of other things, we
    rarely get the "other" parts.  We never know who to contact in order
    to determine how/why printed materials are received.
    
    Sometimes we received materials that are genuinely useful, and then,
    they stop coming.  On the other hand, we often receive multiple
    copies of sales materials, standards, technical reports, catalogs,
    etc.  
    
    Handling this materials takes enormous amounts of staff time and
    effort.  Since this material floods every corner of the corporation,
    I wonder if someone needs to look at what EVERY group in Digital
    is publishing and where the materials are distributed.  Granted,
    each group doing the publishing feels that what they are doing is
    worthy.  My problem is in the AMOUNT being published, but particularly
    the distribution of the materials.

    RE .0
    	I agree 100%!.  I get DEC STD updates mail to me that have nothing
    to do with my job, document updates for documents I don't have and
    newsletters from groups that I didn't even know existed.  I've even
    tried to contact some of these groups to remove me from their lists.
    I'm tempted to get a wood burning stove to at least get the BTU value
    from all this paper.  How can we cut down the flow of these
    publications?  I know, we'll send everybody forms and catalogues
    to select the ones they want :^)
    					=Ralph=
    	

    Sounds like we need some internal standard which hopefully could
    insure each piece is identified properly.  By this I mean each piece
    should give the recipient a method to turn off future distributions.

    I suppose that's wishful thinking.  Most any group can go to Northboro
    and contract a mailing to which ever subset within the corporation
    they wish.

    As far as Standards and Methods Control (DEC Standards) and Automatic
    Software Distribution is concerned, there are relatively easy ways to
    turn off distribution.  Since documents distributed through these
    people also cost money to your cost center it's a good idea to keep
    them under control.
    
    - SMC: On the inside front cover of every document there is a line that
      reads "Copies of this document can be ordered from:" which refers
      to Standards and Methods Control.  This is the same address to which
      you can send a request to be taken off of the update list.
    
      Be sure to give your full name, badge, cost center, address, and
      specific document numbers to help them out in removing you from
      their many lists.
    
    - ADS: Distribution changes are handled through an "ADS Problem Report"
      You can obtain a copy of this form from the VTX ADS database.  It
      often helps to start by requesting a copy of your "ADS Distribution
      Profile" (there's a check-box for it right on the problem report) 
      so you can get the "magic numbers" needed to refer to the various
      software categories you want to stop being distributed to you.
    
    For the many internal magazines (in my case I get a lot of things like
    Japan Review and DESKtopics) that get circulated, there is almost
    always an editor mentioned on the first few pages to whom you can send
    a brief message asking to be removed from the mailing list.  (The
    better ones every year or so include a re-subscription card.) I suggest
    also including your name, mailstop, and badge number since you never
    know how they file the information.

    RE: .5, .6

    I'm not sure if this is still true, but I recall that at one time there
    were some publications that pulled their distribution lists simply by
    JOB CODE!! Thus, it was sometimes impossible to get on/off certain
    distribution lists. Back when ADS for SWS was fed by CLAS, I finally got
    off one distribution by having our CLAS data administer change my job code
    from a III to a II. 

    Deb

    For the record, what I outlined in .5 has worked for me quite well with
    one exception which was solved by a telephone call.  
    
    I know that ADS can be particularly frustrating to deal with, but
    patience and repeated requests will win out.  
    
    I also know that SMC will often create mailing lists from what I think
    are called "basic technology" lists from time to time (they did one for
    me once) for new documents in an attempt to hit all of the right people
    with potentially important information.  I have never known them not to
    correct a mistake as quickly as possible.
    
    I wouldn't worry about receiving so much information.  Granted, some of
    it is stupidly wasteful but much of it is sent to you for some reason
    such as job code (.7), geographic area, or some other relevant
    criteria.  In those cases, I suggest that the best thing to do is look
    at the mailing, find the return address, and politely inform the person
    that you don't want to be on it.  If "everyone" did that, the sender
    would no that "no one" is interested and stop wasting Digital money.

    While firmly believing in individual responsibility, I really object
    to the mindset that makes it my responsibility to hunt down the
    originator and request removal from their distribution.  Rather,
    I think the onus should be on the mailer. 
    
    Specifically, anyone who maintains mailing lists should be required to
    annually poll the addressees to determine if a) they exist b) they
    should still be on the list c) they WANT to be on the list. 

    -dave

    And who else among you?
    
    /Ed

    re .9
    
    Basically, I believe that it is the responsibility of the individual to
    keep the maintainer of the list informed.  That is, request to be added,
    deleted, changed.
    
    There can be MANY reasons for a distribution list.  My feeling is that
    MOST are created more for the benefit of the recipient, than the
    sender.  Let me clarify that by saying, the list will generally be for
    facilitating the distribution of information to a wide audience, and to
    generally, further communication.  You are on it (a lot of times
    voluntarily), so that you will get this information which is presumably
    helpful.  (Some exceptions are distribution lists for ALL employees,
    which are simply a necessary evil.  If a properly empowered individual
    in the company declares something should go to every employee, well...)
    
    Most of the time the distribution list maintainer maintains the list as
    a kind of service (donates the disk space, maintains a hard copy, posts 
    to the list, etc.).  I haven't ever heard of anyone in charge of
    distribution list maintenance and mailing as a specific job title,
    exceptions being magazines, etc.  But keep in mind we're talking
    inter-company, not real world.  The idea is to minimize waste within
    the company.
    
    Its a bit unrealistic to expect ONE person to spend mega-hours tracking
    down people who have moved, died, etc., unless there's a good reason.
    like its a customer list.
    
    Our network is tightly coupled.  Email and DTNs make it easy for
    individuals to get ahold of maintainers. 
    
    If an automated system is in place, then do what the trade rags do. 
    Annually, send mail to the distribution list and say "Hey - send me
    mail or you're outa here!".  If its not automated, and you can't hire
    someone full time to maintain the list, then the members of the list
    have to take a little responsibility for themselves (DEC watch words).
    
    1000 people X 5 minutes   vs.   1 person X 5 min X 1000
    
    My only bug is when it is almost impossible to find out where the
    distribution list is maintained.  VMS isn't very good at that.  Perhaps
    a conventions would be to use a full file spec when posting to a
    distribution, instead of a default file name or logical name.
    
    Ideally, the distribution should be listed in the document (along with
    its source and maintainer), but other conversations in this conference
    have condemned that as too wasteful.  I guess the best solution is
    occasional "Are you still alive?" or "Here is where I came from"
    messages, to make life easier for the recipients.
    
    Jim (who is still trying to get off of BOIS distribution(10
    lbs./month), and to change his VMS_INTEREST node)
    

	Maintaining a mailing list is not part of my job. In fact, maintaining
	what I mail out every week (EASYNOTES.LIS) is not part of my job
	either.

	I spend more time on the mailing list then I do producing the 
	information that I mail out. 90% of that work is because people
	don't let me know when they move, leave the company, or want to
	be taken off the list. Every update (3 a month) gives the information
	regarding where to send mail for address changes or deletions. 50%
	of such requests *still* go to the wrong address.

	Under normal circumstances I see know value to sending a copy of a
	distribution list. For example, sending a 3220 name mailing list
	(where none of those people directly modify the information being sent)
	along with a 24 line message does seem a bit much to me. The only
	time sending a distribution list makes rational sense is if any or
	all of the recipents way or should be replying to all the others.

	I do agree that any bulk mail should include an address for address
	changes and deletions. It remains the responsibility of the recipent
	to read it though. I've yet to find a way to force people to read
	their mail. :-)

				Alfred

RE:  < Note 667.11 by CADSYS::BAY "Don't happy, be worry" >
        
>    Most of the time the distribution list maintainer maintains the list as
>    a kind of service (donates the disk space, maintains a hard copy, posts 
>    to the list, etc.).  I haven't ever heard of anyone in charge of
>    distribution list maintenance and mailing as a specific job title,
>    exceptions being magazines, etc.  But keep in mind we're talking
>    inter-company, not real world.  The idea is to minimize waste within
>    the company.

        Jim, while I'll agree with you when it come to most electronic
        distributions (which are usually somewhat easier to trace than
        the paper ones), there is, in fact, a whole organization within
        Digital whose job it is to maintain address lists.  The group
        is called Corporate Distribution, and they are located in NRO
        (Northboro, MA).
           
        The problem arises when other groups set up their own mailing
        and distribution mechanisms, rather than using the corporate
        function.  The Corporate Distribution organization gets a feed
        from Personnel that updates most of the address lists they
        maintain automatically; many other groups don't.
        
        EVERYTHING that is distributed periodically in hardcopy should
        include, preferably in the inside cover or on the back page (where
        the address label is often pasted) a statement of who maintains
        the address list, and what to do to get your address updated or
        deleted (or to get added to the distribution, if that's what you
        want). 
        
        Tom

Re: < Note 667.13 by DR::BLINN "Don't panic!" >
             -< There is a group that does mailing lists as a job >-

>       Jim, while I'll agree with you when it come to most electronic
>       distributions (which are usually somewhat easier to trace than
>       the paper ones), there is, in fact, a whole organization within
>       Digital whose job it is to maintain address lists.  The group
>       is called Corporate Distribution, and they are located in NRO
>       (Northboro, MA).

          
The group that maintains distribution lists is part of Publishing 
and Circulation Services, which is not connected with Corporate 
Distribution.  They are both located in Northboro, MA, however.  
One of the services they will perform is maintenance of mailing 
lists.

        Lou, you've hit the nail on the head.  It's a corporate-wide
        data integrity problem, and it really needs to be fixed by
        better coordination of data resources (in this case, access
        to accurate distribution address data, as well as accurate
        information on who sends things out).
        
        Sigh..
        
        Tom

    re: mailing lists
    
    geee, I wonder why distribution lists couldn't be like ELF distribution
    list (the mechanism)... local databases that update from/to a master
    database in a timely fashion. Then each area/district could maintain
    it's own list, and corporate could do whatever they felt they needed
    to do.....
    
    We already get charged (at least our unit managers do) for things
    we receive (sales update, small buffer, etc)
    
    Please do not make it like SBS though!!!   :-)
    
    
    Bruce Evans

        Alas, the current ELF is seriously broken, and although the
        idea is nice, the current implementation simply does not work.
        But that's a topic for another conference (MSTEAK::ELF).
        
        I suspect that an interface based on VTX to examine the central
        "address list" file for accuracy (although it should be driven
        from the payroll master file, in my opinion, which would keep
        it accurate) would be efficient, and proper use of the VALU
        application interface could allow updates to the list, provided
        that the central database knew which "publications" were being
        sent out to each person.  Right now, that simply isn't done.
        
        Tom

    I've really enjoyed reading this topic.  Here in Standards and Methods 
    Control (SMC) we maintain distribution lists for documents we manage.  
    This consumes about one person's time each year to keep things
    straight.  Dumb, right?  Each of our documents (2,000?) can
    potentially have four distribution lists:
                         
     		Advisory Committee Review List
                Technical Committee Review List
                General Committee Review List
     		End User Document Update List
     
    Because our lists are ALWAYS out of date (reviewers come and go,
    people change jobs and don't have the same level of interest...)
    we plan to put the list maintenance reponsibility in the hands of
    our customers.
     
    Next month we'll be making available our first venture into VTX.
    With our first release, a user can search for SMC documents by 
    various methods, display current (within a week old) document data, 
    and place an order for the document.  But within six months we plan
    to make available our second release, which will enable us to
    VAXmail printable files (compound documents when available), AND 
    to allow the user to add/delete his or her name to a document's 
    (or to a group of documents) distribution list.  We'll send mail 
    messages periodically, maybe yearly, to people on distribution lists
    telling them that they will be purged from our list(s) unless THEY 
    reaffirm (via VTX) their need to remain on distribution.
    
    I think one of the criteria for our success will be how little paper
    we can distribute and still transfer the needed information.

    - Jim

    VTX (as Digital has implemented it) has potential to solve several
    problems....                        
                                        
    	o Distribution list management (eliminates).
    	o Information accuracy (when you make the change to the data
          base is when the new information is available to the users).         
    	o Replication of files (eliminates the need to give         
    	  everyone a full copy of the information).                 
    	o Reduces network traffic (people are only pulling the information
          they are reading, one page at a time).                    
                                                                   
    	
    Digital's implementation is, simply put, distributed access to
    centralized applications.  We distribute menus, which provide pointers
    to applications.  In many ways we provide a service that is very
    similar to TSN (now WATN) in that we provide terminal access...but
    directly to the application, where TSN provides access to a system, a
    terminal switch or a terminal server.