Conference 7.286::digital

People who want to waste time, will always find ways to waste time, PC games or
not.

Bob

    
    There ought to be a company policy requiring all employees to have a
    game window running in the backgound at all times.  That way, we
    could weed out the fun-impaired who are dragging us down.  Anything
    can be overdone, but our new VP of Engineering made a point of
    mentioning fun when he addressed us.  I think modest computer fun
    improves our productivity.
    

    Re .0:
    
    > One answer is to go back to the old way of computing, . . .
    
    What do you know of the old way?  I was playing computer games back in
    the early 70s, maybe the late 60s.  Computer games are just as old as
    computers; before Space War there was Tic Tac Toe on the earliest
    "computers".  The lure of computer games has in fact attracted much
    talent to this industry.          
    
    
    				-- edp

PC Computer games should be banned, no question. The games are a major
cause of wasted time and resources in companies today. If there were no
games then we would have fewer goof-offs.




Now think about your reaction my text above. Is the game the culprit here
or is it the person that is goofing off?




Sounds similar to a current, topical issue (which I will not mention) that
many are discussing/dealing with today that has a 'is it the person or
the <noun> that creates the problem' thread to it.

Let's not blame the game- put the blame squarely where it belongs- on
the abuser.

Lee

(Yes, I have the same stance on the other issue as well).

    i have mixed feeling and emotions on this subject.

    it all really depends what game it is.

    for example, Tic Tac Toes (that EDP mentioned) improves eyes, ear, nose 
    and hand coordinations, and that can't hurt, but some games have no purpose
    to them and these should be panned for sure.

    so, the bottom line is that we can't nilly Wiley just say pan all
    games, we need to look at each in individual basis and decide.

    i suggest the formations of a committee of DECeees to investigate this
    matter and to come up with a list of games that should be panned
    and ones that are good for you.

    \nasser

    Goof offs will goof off, either playing PC games or reading
    magazines...
    
    However, what value do these games bring to making people computer  
    literate and unafraid of the machines - a great deal!
    
    The 'gestapo' mentality of measuring keystrokes to determine how hard
    your people are working seems to have passed, thankfully, however it
    woudn't be too hard to 'monitor' the PC's and generate alarms/messages
    to 'the boss' that someone is playing games excessively - if the 
    PC's are networked, that is.  (if they ever try that with me, I'll
    figure out how to disable it, and thereby learn more about the 
    PC world).  Games as an outlet for on-the-job stress are a  wonderful
    idea, and I've had lots of requests for copies of XWAVE (an X windows
    based 3d perspective mesh generator) from people at tradeshows - many 
    of them executives who said 'that would be a greate stress releiver'
    
    Games have their good points and bad points, but it all really boils
    down to managment knowing what's going on and being responsible and
    accountable - if people are goofing off too much it could indicate
    the presence of a poor manager...

    re: previous replies
    
    I can only hope that many of the previous comments were made with
    tongue firmly in cheek.
    
    There are good points and bad points to having games on systems.
    For one, they've always been there, but usually only available to
    a privileged few. For another, games are yet another way to relieve
    stress on the job, just like the family pictures on your desk, and
    the cartoons pasted on your wall.
    
    People should be judged by their productivity.  If playing games on
    company time adversly affects someone's productivity, then the person
    is at fault, not the game. Moreover, I can't see anybody approving
    game-related hardware or software purchases for PCs.
    
    The downside:  PC game software suffers from a great amount of piracy.
    Digital can't afford to have pirated software on it's machines, whether
    it is games, utilities, or *real* applications.  If people put games on
    their systems in the office, they need to be *real* careful to avoid
    any question of piracy.
    
    Geoff Unland

    
    It's interesting to note that at a very large Digital customer site one
    must sign an agreement before getting access to a computer or an
    account, the agreement basically says that you agree not to put any
    games onto their systems. The company is a government prime and many of
    their systems are purchased with government money and as I recall this
    was a government auditors rule. Even as a Digital employee helping out
    at their site, I was required to sign this document in order to have
    access to their systems and networks. This same policy
    restricts them from having employee-interest notes conference as well -
    they had quite a few VAXnotes conferences but several years ago they
    were forced to delete all the employee interest ones and now the only
    ones allowed are job related.
    
    I agree with the prvious sentiments that if folks want to waste time
    they will find a diversion. I also think that other folks who work 60
    to 80 hours weeks deserve the option to have a game on their system to
    get a few minutes of diversion every once in a while. It's not uncommon
    around here to come in over the weekend and find someone playing a game
    on a Mac for a bit after several hours of "going the extra mile"
    working saturday and/or sunday.
    
    -Joe
    

    If we wasted more time playing games, there might not be so many 
    pointless notes in notes files!

    I expect that some companies and govt departments are not keen on games
    on PCs due to the risk of viruses. The most likely way to get a PC
    infected is to load one of the games that an offspring or friend has
    given you.

    
    
    If I had to represent a management point of view, I'd see
    my team as a black box, strongly being concerned about the
    desired output and not how it is generated (as far as I've
    heard this is just the viewpoint -or at least has been - of
    Microsofts chairman Bill Gates and his company is still running
    very well). I think if management is starting to make a point
    of controlling people then their company is already in a 
    downward spin -for whatever reason and workers playing games 
    excessively etc. is only one symptom.
    
    Besides this control implies many overhead costs, the immaterial 
    (i.e. morals) surely not being the least one.
    
    I'm writing this as someone who's not all interested in playing
    games ( for me, people who excessively are running games 
    simply haven't found out yet what's real important and 
    fun in life - just my opinion)
    
    							helmut 	

    
    	Remove all games from all computers!
    	Remove all radios, tape decks, and CD players from company cars!
    	Remove all chairs from the cafeterias!
    	Remove anything to do with employee physical fitness, including
    	walking paths and showers for joggers/bikers etc.!
    	Eliminate all employee-interest notes conferences!
    	Nothing but technical journals in the libraries!
    
    	After all, we're here to work, not to relax, right?
    	
    
    
    	Just kidding!
    
    	John

	What we need to do is to remove the cube wall dividers, and arrange
	our desks in long rows all facing the same direction. That way
	the supervisors can walk up and down the rows looking for and
	reprimanding those caught playing games, talking to each other and
	doing other things not directly involved with obtaining revenue
	from customers. Optimally, the supervisors would be equipped 
	with a long pole so they could rapidly give a rap on the top of 
	the head to those caught not working.

					Tom_K

>    Goof offs will goof off, either playing PC games or reading
>    magazines...
    
	Or read/write garbage notes....  ;v{)

    re.13
    I worked 9 years for a company that had a smiliar office setup. 
    Approx. 250 people at desks, side by side and deep as the eye could 
    see, a few narrow aisles  to get from the front to the back of
    the office area.  Supervisors & managers sat on the outside desk,
    so we could have a single chair to have someopne sit on if we needed 
    to have a conversation.  The office manager, superintendent,
    controller, personnel manager, etc. sat in glass walled offices up 
    front, facing out to the masses, so they could see who wasn't at their
    desk working, or who was walking around, etc.  It was fairly quiet, 
    becasue the last thing you wanted was to make a noise that caused 
    everyone to stop & look your way.  We also had buzzers that went off
    at 8:00am, 12:00 noon, 1:00 pm and 5:00 pm that signaled when you 
    should & should not be at your desk, but that's a different story.
    There's all kinds out there.
    
    Mark
    

Mark,

That reminds me of a scene from the movie "Brazil".  My sympathies.

tim

    re: 13
    
    Tom,
    
    Great idea!  I think you should submit to DELTA.  
    
    I always wanted to be a manager in that type of setting.
    
    Chuck
    

re: .13, .17

Actually i worked in an environment not unlike that (for an insurance
company converting its paper records over to microfilm back in the '70s).
The incidence of employee sabotage was phenomenal in spite of the close
surveillance.  Almost a textbook case of how NOT to motivate employees.

								paul
P.s.  missing smileys assumed etc. ;^)

    why cant we throw a bird with 2 stones at the same time?

    i mean why dont we in DEC write game software like they do in
    tandindo and other such companies? there is big bucks in this i hear,
    so this way DECeeees can work and play games all the same time, it will
    be both fun and entertaining and still be work too.

    i dont know why no one brought this up before.

    thank you,
    \bye
    \nasser

    I always thought that computer programming was a game. So if we're
    going to get rid of games that would include BASIC, PASCAL, C, FORTRAN
    and other compilers. I don't think I'd get much done. 

    			Alfred

    Games?
    
    But why else would anyone ever want to buy a PC?
    
    Ed.

    Heard on NPR this morning that Marvel Comics presented their annual
    report in the form of a comic book this year.
    
    How about putting together something like "Where in the General Ledger
    is Carmen SanDiego?" or "Leisure Suit Larry monitors FDA Compliance"?
    
    ;^) dave

It's amazing how some haven't yet stepped into the 1990's.  It would 
seem in some cases that although we don't have to punch a time-clock, 
some still embrace that _style_ of management.

Something I learned back in trade school has come in handy in many a
previous job where employers have insisted on monitoring my
performance by peering over my shoulder, morale-be-damned.   My shop
teacher once said, "You need to learn the fine art of 'goofing off
gracefully'.  You don't need to actually be doing something all the
time, just look like you are, at all times!  It takes practice".  
Boy, have those words rung true!  Many times, this is very simple to
accomplish - think of how often you have held a position where your
manager/supervisor did NOT HAVE A CLUE what the nuts and bolts of your
tasks were? 

When are we going to start genuinely measuring folks on 
their performance, instead of how 'busy' they look when we go by their 
office.  This doesn't mean keeping track of keystrokes either, as has 
been mentioned.  I have been known to do non work-related activities 
from the office, sometimes you have to unless you take the day off to 
accomodate businesses that are only open between 9 and 5.  I have also 
been known to work late frequently, bottom line is I try to make sure 
the company gets their $ worth.  I know this to be the case with many 
of us.

This would mean we would actually trust some folks to work from home 
with exceptions for meetings and other "team" activities.  Now, if 
most of us were to ask our managers we would likely be told "then how 
will I know if you are doing your work?"    
  
What does it take for these people to wake up?

JB

    .-1
    
>their performance, instead of how 'busy' they look when we go by their 
>office.  
    
    hi JB,
    
    this is interesting, how does one please look busy if they are not doing 
    much of anything?
    
    isn't kinda hard to do?
    
    i mean what would one actually do to do it?
    
    \bye
    \nasser
    

    Re: .24 by STAR::ABBASI:
    
    >...how does one please look busy if they are not doing 
    >much of anything?
    
    Many years ago there was a story that made the rounds of the officer
    wardroom of the USS Hornet -- about a brand spanking new US Navy Ensign
    who reported for duty aboard that aircraft career.  For most of the
    business day, he cleverly went from compartment to compartment carrying
    a clipboard on which he apparently took copious notes.  According to
    the story, it was almost three months before the ship's top brass
    caught on that no one had ever actually given the young man any
    assignment. 

    re: looking busy ...
    
    Spark's Ten Rules for the Project Manager
    from "Murphy's Law" by Arthur Bloch
    
    1. Strive to look tremendously important.
    
    2. Attempt to be seen with important people.
    
    3. Speak with authority; however, only expound on the obvious
       and proven facts.
    
    4. Don't engage in arguments, but if cornered, ask an irrelevant
       question and lean back with a satisfied grin while your opponent
       tries to figure out what's going on -- then change the subject.
    
    5. Listen intently while others are arguing the problem. Pounce on a
       trite statement and bury them with it.
    
    6. If a subordinate asks you a pertinent question, look at him as if
       he had lost his senses. When he looks down, paraphrase the question
       back at him.
    
    7. Obtain a brilliant assignment, but keep out of sight and out of
       the limelight.
    
    8. Walk at a fast pace when out of the office -- this keeps questions
       from subordinates and superiors at a minimum.
    
    9. Always keep the office door closed. This puts visitors on the
       defensive and also makes it look as if you are always in an
       important conference.
    
    10. Give all orders and reports verbally.  Never write anything down
        that might go into a "Pearl Harbor File."

	RE: .26

	Hey! You're giving away all the secrets!!!

	:-)

							mike

    The very first computer game (it might even be the first computer
game for all I know) I had my fingers on when I was in my first computer 
class in college was the one simulating a safe Appollo landing on the moon.  
It ran on the earliest PDPs (Is this proof enough that DEC made the first 
"PC?" :^).  

After your last easy trek on the surface of the moon, as your reward
for a safe landing, you step into the local McDonald's and place an 
order of french fries.  

Does anyone remember? VAX/PC versions anywhere?

    				~dan 
    

    RE: .28-
    
    	It was "Lunar Lander" as I recall.
    
    Phil

    Lunar Lander...that was written by Jack Burness in about
    1974?  We were demoing the PDP11/05 in LasVegas...there had
    been a lot of industry rumor that we would not be able to
    have it there, that the machine was just hype.  We also were demoing
    a new display device, so Jack wrote this is a way to show
    off the little PDP11 and the graphics.  I think it ran in
    a 4K PDP11.

    not sure who remembers this ancient history....this 'we' was
    the PDP12 group (later LDP) and not the PDP11 group.  The PDP11
    enginering group also didn't think we'ld make it to Las Vegas.
    Jack and Steve Teicher are both out at Kubota now.

    This was a long was from the earliest 'rocket control' games...	
    but it was pretty amazing for Jack to do it in 4K.
    bob armstrong

    Thanks for the details! Lunar Lander it was! I played it on
    a PDP11/06 only once as there was always (even on weekends!) 
    a line of students to get on it.  I am sure it captured the 
    iMAGINation of many.

    May be the DECpc AXP/150 Engineering group will take us
    back to the future and give us a version called "Mercury
    Lander!"

    				Cheers!
    				    Dan~  

    The only draw back of Lunar Lander was the number of VR17 CRT's that
    had to be thrown out because the Lunar landscape was burned into the
    phosphor of the screen. Even turned of you could see the Lunar
    mountains.

    re: .28-32
    
    	Circa 1967/68 as I re-call...first ran on a pdp-8 machine
    when I first saw it, maybe goes back even futher to the pdp-1
    days but that's before me...
    
    

    
    Ahhhh...lunar lander - played it on a PDP11 back in PK1 about a decade
    and half ago.  If you knew the right address, you could toggle in extra
    fuel and go exploring the lunar landscape.  Thanx for the memories.
    
    
    
    						/Rita
    
    

A PDP11/05 with Light Pen ...

I used to have a version that had been ported to VMS and UIS.  I also
thought someone was doing a Motif port.

Larry

    The first game I remember was a Monopoly game written in BASIC on a
    GE635 system....circa 1965.
    
    First DEC game? Easy, the aircraft landing game on the PDP-1 @MIT. When
    you overflew it you did an instant trip around the world and made
    another approach. When you undercut it you got a crash effect followed
    by fishes swimming by the cockpit! All done with vector graphics,
    including cockpit instruments.
    
    The PDP-1 in the mill kept for FS training used to have it installed.
    
    Re "super survellience" management:
    Its alive and well today and its called "micromanagement".
    
    Bob(retiree)

    
    
    Now that we all know where Lunar lander came from...
    
    I guess I will let the cat out of the bag.  I currently have
    started supporting X-terminals and was note'ng rather tongue-in-cheek
    from the perspective of that technology.  Whenever I talk with
    tech directors from our customers, this issue always arrises...
    including not only games but also the lack of security(read virus)that
    PC shareware brings.  The Computer lab director at Univ of Texas has to
    purge his PC lab twice a week to get rid of games.  It tees him off to
    no end. Reading some of the replies here was eye-opening, some make the
    point. 
    
    Thanks for all your replies...I got my answer.
    
    Pc
           

    Lunar Lander is alive and well - I still run it occasionally on my
    VAXstation 2000.  I first came across it during an installation at Du
    Pont when it wasused to check out the main control console screens for
    their Hypalon* control room.  That was back in 1979'ish on an 11/70
    with 2 11/34 front ends.
    
    There are three landing places: before the tallest mountain, in the
    valley just after it, and at McDonalds- although the current version
    I'm running has had the McDonalds sign removed and the guy asks for
    "Two Workstations and an Ethernet to go, please."  It runs quite
    happily under VWS and DECwindows, although Windows screwsup the
    colours.
    
    If I knew how to make it world-readable, I'd be happy to let anyone
    copy it.  Or if anyone else can give it a home, I'll FTSV it out to
    their node.
    
    Cheers,
    
    Gerry.
    

The point that I think is being missed is that novel and interesting 
computer games were once developed on Digital machines.  In a silly, but not so
silly, way that helps a company's image as innovative and a desirable platform.

While I agree that game playing shouldn't be done at work, game making should
be encouraged.  Not just for the game itself, but the creativity such work 
inspires.  

			Bob Cohen

    Games seem to push the state of the art.  There are no applications on
    my PC that tax the system more than some of the VR games.  And, games
    are a great way to learn a user interface.  Take the fun out of
    computing and you'll be left with folks who won't want to spend much
    time using and learning about computers.
    
    Last night I was up until the wee hours with Powerpoint on my PC making
    35 mm slides for a paper I'll be presenting for Digital next month.  It
    was loads of fun and much easier to do than on my system at work.  The
    fun made the work go faster and more efficiently.  I could do the same
    work with a cell terminal, but it would have taken forever and would
    have been like pulling teeth.  And, the delay in seeing the results
    would have taken the fun out.  The technology used for the graphics and
    placement is the same technology I've come to know in entertainment
    programs.
    
    My vote is for not only having games on work systems, but to make the
    very best multimedia available.  This will help stimulate innovation
    and awareness of the technology.  Sure, you have to trust that your
    employees are going to "do the right thing."  But, lest we forget,
    supposedly we are a company that sells innovation to our customers.
    And, if the company can't trust the grunts all is lost anyway.  As was
    pointed out, if grunts are going to waste time, they'll find a way to
    do it anyway.  I've always felt that if you mistrust your employees
    eventaully they will earn your mistrust.
    
    Steve

    Bob came close to the point.
    
    Digital, once upon a time, sold products that appealed
    
    ...to the most creative people in the computer industry.
    ...to the most leading edge applications.
    ...to the source of the excitement around using computers.
    
    Digital practiced management by contradiction in promoting (in word)
    innovation and not promoting (in actions) innovation.
    
    The "successful" products, namely those that passed the internal
    bureaucratic hurdles, are what's got us to this point in history.

According the the recent PBS series on computers, the need for a small,
light-weight computer as the guidence system of the Apollo-11 Lunar Lander, 
fostered the development of the first computer with integrated circuits.  The IC
was invented much earlier, but was unused in computers bacause of the great
expense.  Of course, money was no problem in the early days of the Space 
program.

It's quite possible that the Lunar Lander "game" evolved from this critical era
of computer history. 

Hey, now we can thank the Space program for giving society both Tang and computer 
games!  Or maybe we should thank the Soviets?


							-Paul
  

re Note 2481.42 by SDSVAX::SWEENEY:

>     Digital, once upon a time, sold products that appealed
>     
>     ...to the most creative people in the computer industry.
>     ...to the most leading edge applications.
>     ...to the source of the excitement around using computers.
  
        They were also:

        ... (relatively) easy to program
        ... (relatively) easy to own

    More,                                    
    
    I agree with most of what has been said.  I have indeed built an
    interface between a laptop PC and a large Model Railroad. I hit return 
    and 3 trains completely work themselves through  a days work(in miniature
    that is). It's like a 3 dimensional video game. The action truely comes
    to life. I have probably learned more about computers,internals, memory, 
    software, etc...from this experience,than any course I have taken at DEC. 
    As a matter of fact, when I came here, I knew nothing about computers, 
    past a basic fortran course I took in college. I didn't mean to ruffle 
    anyones feathers by the base note, I was just stating a fact that I hear 
    over and over again.  And, I think I probably disagree with the idea that 
    if people are going to goof off, they will probably do it some other way. 
    I truely believe that some Computer Games are addicting...and they suck
    in the players. Some folks just can't say no. 
    
    Bottom line is, many managers are starting to look at them as a
    hendrince(sp) to productivity when you include maintenance, updates, 
    viruses, games, Software police(FBI) etc. I was only reiterating an
    observation, not a personal opinion. 
    
    Thanks to all that replied
     
    

After a tough day of sitting at a workstation coding and debugging and such,
there's nothing like a good game of Hextris to get you ready for the drive home.

Paul

    I have not read all the replies so pardon me if it's already been
    stated.
    
    Great advances have been made in the field of mind/brain technology 
    in the past 20 or so years and we know a fair bit about the Right hand 
    and Left hand brain characteristics. Pioneering work on Management 
    science on the other hand was completed by the late fifties, early 
    sixties. Up until the last decade, greater emphasis was put on the Left 
    hand brain activities, Right hand brain activities were considered 
    contra to productive work.
    
    I believe this is the reason most managers behave the way they do.
    Shame really, as even in its heyday Management science was very
    inexact. It really has not kept pace with times. Added to this pace of
    life is very fast. Net effect of this is that people continually
    fluctuate between Abraham (sp?) Maslow's heirarchies and flip between 
    McGregor's contradicting 'X' and 'Y' theories. 
    
    In very simple words, people have become more complex (more demanding,
    more free, self-managing......). We all want more out of life and why
    not?
    
    All this has left managers baffled. Frankly, I can't understand why it
    took so long because people don't really want to be managed. I don't
    think they ever did. In the good old days, people slaved away out a
    sense of indebtedness. There was either loyalty or stick and carrot of 
    which only loyalty remains true even today - but only if it's two way
    street. After the world wars there was a shortage of leaders and
    'manager' was born. It was a sort of duplication effort by the leaders 
    of the day (this is my personal thinking on what happened). I feel the
    experiment has failed because we have got an abundance of managers but 
    decreasing number of leaders.
    
    Leaders are what we need even today to motivate us. It so happens that
    a good leader is also a good manager. On the contrary, a good manager
    is not a good leader. What most people want is a leader who they can
    look up to, inspired by, motivated by etc. A true leader will allow 
    full development of the person and would not feel compelled to manage,
    would be in touch with rality of times.
    
    Perwesh (I find playing a game unblocks my brain)