Conference 7.286::digital

        I doubt that Bob Palmer actually reads this notes file. I would
    not be surprised if people on his staff do. One would like to assume
    that if something is said here that he should know about that someone
    would bring it to his attention.

    There are senior managers who read notes, even some VPs. Most are
    read only Noters but there have been notes written by VPs in the
    past. One in the UK_DIGITAL conference by the former Managing Director
    of UK operations comes to mind. Also some notes in the FLYING conference.

    			Alfred

    
    Unlike Ken Olsen, he does know how to log into a computer and
    actually answer his own mail.  I'm sure he has used notes.
    

re: .1

>I doubt that Bob Palmer actually reads this notes file. I would
>    not be surprised if people on his staff do. One would like to assume
>    that if something is said here that he should know about that someone
>    would bring it to his attention.


It is probably reasonable to assume at this point that no organized 
mechanism exists at present (i.e., a group of people or a bunch of tools)
to feed BP with "something that was said here that he should know about".
Therefore, the information feed from this notesfile (and others) may
be completely random (occasional, with each person using their own 
notion of what might/should BP (want to) know about). 
This is not a reliable way for BP to get a pulse of this notes coference. 

On the other hand, if such a mechanism did exist and it was dominated
by people (on his staff and then some) as opposed to tools, then one can 
assume that they would indulge in some degree of filtering/screening, 
and bring a certain degree of personal bias to the process.

In both cases sketched above, I think that BP would end up getting 
filtered/interpreted inputs. 


The best way for BP to get an unbiased pulse is to use automatic tools 
that extract topics and replies that match his interest profile and mail 
them to him.

My $0.02 worth.

>The best way for BP to get an unbiased pulse is to use automatic tools 
>that extract topics and replies that match his interest profile and mail 
>them to him.
    
    What makes you think he reads his mail -- heck, MY supervisor has
    his mail winnowed by his admin assistant.

I would hope that someone with Mr. Palmer's responsibilities would not waste
his time reading this notes file. It's his job to fix the problems, not listen
to people griping and moaning about the same thing over and over and ....

    re -1:
    
    I would hope that he would read them.  They contain a wealth of
    information about the health of his company, which right now is not
    very good.  Now, if he doesn't care about the health of the company,
    then...

    re -.1
    
    There are about a dozen people that dominate this notes file and if you
    disagree with them or offend them, they turn you in to the moderator.  I
    hardly think a statistically valid cross-section of the company is
    represented in this notes file.
    
    re -.2
    
    Bingo!
    
    bk 

    
    RE: .1  Well just because you think something hardly makes it true.
    
    
    Mike

    Reading this conference is not a "waste of time" unless one looks only
    at the notes which have been entered with the intent to waste the time
    of the reader.  This conference serves Digital well as being a sounding
    board for the concerns of its employees.
    
    "griping and moaning":  One may take issue with the style in which some
    of the replies have been written but notes typically concern a sincere
    interest on the part of the author for that employee, some group of
    employees, customers, or Digital as a whole.
    
    On the whole, there have been far more "problems" here than "griping
    and moaning".
    
    In fact, what's been dismissed as "griping and moaning", years later in
    retrospect, seems to have been more accurately the "real problem" as
    opposed to what senior management presented to employees as the
    so-called problems they saw at the time.  If the "same thing over and
    over" is discussed, that's only because it still isn't resolved as far
    as employees here see it.

    Management by Wandering Around 
    
    	It is one of the buzzwords these days.   Well a good way to wonder
    around from the top is using tools like VAXnotes to get informed on 
    what is going on.   We may be in disagreement with the information
    that is being shared, but that is supposed to be the main reason of
    Management by Wandering Around.    Physically, there is no way any
    individual can 'feel the pulse' of a corporation the size of Digital.
    You don't have to only look for information in this notesfile, there
    are others on technical matters, marketing, sales, products, etc.
    In less than 1 hour per day you can get the feeling, now that is what
    I call empowering employees.   If you know that top level managment is
    reading and most importantly doing something about issues/concerns or
    following up on an issue, I personally think is good business.
    Clear example is the large amount of notes that develop after the
    issue of the 'non-business related notesfile' potential elimination
    was raised.   We all used this media to inform management and ourselves
    on how we felt on the issue.   Top management (who may have use the
    information to make the decision) decided to keep the notesfile alive.
    

    Amen, ::JMorales.  See also 2342.*, and I know I wasn't anywhere NEAR
    the first to suggest it.
    
    Dan
    

    It is a fact that Bob P as well as the SLT are aware of this notes-file
    and specific topics.
    
    Reading it is one matter, but being aware and receiving information is
    another.
    
    Cal

    
    
    BS, this is a golden opportunity that Bob (Mr. Palmer) could check in
    with us.  
    
    
    
    
    Mike

    	Yeah...right...I'm sure that between slinging some C code and
    postings to alt.tasteless on the Usenet, he has time to read and post
    stuff to this NOTEs conference. If you think Bob is logged in from home
    in the evening "conference surfing", it's reality-check time!

    
    	If you hear that Bob has quit, you'll know he's been reading.

    >                  <<< Note 2643.15 by STAR::DIPIRRO >>>
    >                       -< Whoa! Snap out of it! >-

    >	Yeah...right...I'm sure that between slinging some C code and
    >postings to alt.tasteless on the Usenet, he has time to read and post
    >stuff to this NOTEs conference. If you think Bob is logged in from home
    >in the evening "conference surfing", it's reality-check time!

    
    You know I somehow know that Bob and the important folk are 
    too busy to Cybersurf but then I have to note(tm) in addition to 
    my Day Job(tm) I read Notes and Usenet to keep up, informed, and
    current (amost more for timely information than technical information).
    
    Somehow when I'm a CEO, (or fill some position of responsibity
    in my career) I'll still be slinging a little code, and continue to 
    tap into all available sources of information besides the WSJ...
    (and don't tell me I won't because like the commercial goes 
      -- How many reruns can you watch?)
    
    John Wisniewski
    

    
    One day when he was just a chip VP visiting my old boss he borrowed 
    a terminal, logged into MEMIT:: and using VAXmail answered his mail.
    My old VP also used to answer much of his own mail.  I know
    his sec. used to do his A1 mail, he would handle the VAXmail.
    
    The desire/ability to use computers has nothing to do with ones job
    code, just skill set.... 8*)
    
    Jon
    

    .7 contains an interesting claim -- that the moderators receive lots
    of complaints from a small group of aggressive noters whose real 
    problem is that someone disagrees with them.
    
    Moderators -- without revealing individual cases, could you please
    let me know whether you do get a lot of complaints, and if you do,
    is .7 correct that many are for invalid reasons?  Is .7 correct
    that there is a dominant group of DIGITAL noters that complain
    regularly when someone disagrees with them or that take offense
    for things that you don't think they should find offensive?
    
    		Just looking for valid data,
    		Larry Seiler

    
    	I don't know if the dominant group of DIGITAL noters complain
    regularly but there is a dominant group of (read/write) DIGITAL noters, 
    and it's not a whole lot of people.  Not complaining, anybody is free to
    dominate any and every note (as far as I can tell). But, this notes
    file is not the pulse or heartbeat of the DEC workforce, nor does it 
    contain a wealth of information about the health of the company. What it 
    does contain is a wealth of information about the health of the individual
    contributor.
    
    	Bob doesn't need to read this notes file to know that people don't
    like getting laid off. Of course if he really wants to fix things, he
    just needs to tune in here.

    Well, there's one easy way to find out!  Bob if you're there, say hi!

    
    (I asked him to do that once. Never heard back...)
    

Re: .20

I would disagree with the contention in .7, though I'll note it's a common
theme among those who have received complaints about notes.  We really get
very few complaints about notes in DIGITAL.  That there may be one or two
(not more than that) people who bring things to our attention more often
than others is, I feel, a case of these people caring about the company and
the possible effects of certain notes.  We (the moderators) consider such
requests to be triggers to look at a particular note (or notes) more
closely.  Try as we might, we don't always catch all the possible angles.
We often disagree and take no action.

What it comes down to is that it is the moderators who decide whether or
not a note should be returned - nobody else.

					Steve

    I am pretty sure that I have seen replies from a member of Bob's direct
    staff.  I will leave it up to him to identify himself, if he chooses.
    
    Dalip

Re .24 about Moderators power to delete notes:

And it is my opinion that they are the last people I want deciding whether
what I put in here is acceptable or not. Moderators are on a power trip. I've
been a moderator and I believe in freedom of speech. Therefore, I let things 
take their course. Any offended parties should take up their issues with the
proper authorities (personnel, mgmt) as they would if something offensive was 
uttered or recorded via another medium.

And you might well say: "Jim, your approach may put this great benefit at 
risk." Well, I think the risk is worth it. I'd also like to point out that 
there is a fairly small group of people who moderate mutliple conferences so 
they get their total authoritarian satisfaction. These people may think they 
are doing the company a great service. Well, I've been using Notes since the 
early 1980s and the ONLY value I think a moderator has is in keeping a 
conference organized and on the subject. Hiding, deleting or otherwise 
modifying or causing to be modified Notes written by others only provides 
those 'holier-than-thou' types the opportunity to assert their will on others.

Regards,

Jim

>Re .24 about Moderators power to delete notes:
>And it is my opinion that they are the last people I want deciding whether
>what I put in here

Unfortunately moderators are held responsible personally for notes they 
allow to remain in a conference and I sure as heck wouldn't hesitate to 
prevent myself being held responsible for what I considered may be a 
breach of P&Ps!

> Any offended parties should take up their issues with the
>proper authorities (personnel, mgmt) as they would if something offensive was 
>uttered or recorded via another medium.

In mail etc the author is the only one held responsible for what is 
written as they and and the system management are the only ones with any 
control over what they do.   

I would be unimpressed if a conference I moderated had a contravening note
put in and the offended person went straight to personnel and got me a warning 
rather than having the common courtesy to let me know it was there.  I would 
imagine personnel and managers aren't too impressed in the time it takes
to go in and understand a whole string of conversation that has gone on 
before in order to judge if it was ok or not everytime someones nose was
out of joint.

> Moderators are on a power trip.

I am a moderator of a couple of conferences. I am not on a power trip.
I feel I am familiar enough with the tool to be technically competant 
at helping maintain a conference, I put in effort to encourage 
participation where appropriate and try to help people understand 
each other where necessary in both technical-work-related-conferences 
I help look after and in non-tech-non-directly-core-job-related ones.

Do you consider system managers and IS as being on power trips too as 
their roles are very similar, just trying to ensure proper use of tools
to ensure their ability to serve those who want to use them.

>those 'holier-than-thou' types the opportunity to assert their will on others.

I try to only assert P&Ps on others... and I don't believe I'm holier-than-thou!
I do my best, generally it's up to scratch for what I ask of myself.. I try 
to bear on the side of going easy when I can. 

I'll agree some people can't deal with responsibility and do get a power trip
and bad attitude from it, however I think that's a very unfair generalisation.
Some people seem to think extra responsibilities make them a better human being,
some people think otherwise and simply see it as something you can try to do 
to allow other people the benefit of something.  There was a conference
before now which was going to close, it was a little used techie conference, 
I decided it wasn't likely to interfere with my job and so long as it provided
some benefit to someone somewhere then it was worth offering to fill the 
role that was threatening it's demise.   It's a similar thing to volunteering 
to help with the sports and social club - I like doing things for other people,
I find it rewarding, not because I can dictate to them but because I feel 
I'm doing something useful.  

Do you think of the  women who volunteer to work in Oxfam shops as doing it 
so they can tell shoppers they can't touch things and accuse people of 
shoplifting or is it only moderators you think have a power problem with 
offering their services?

    Our Pres. & CEO had a great essay in which he praised the Clinton
    Administration to the skies for their prompt changes to trade policies
    vis-a-vis technology exporting.  In the course of this piece, he got in
    several wonderfully appropriate plugs for Alpha AXP technology.
    
    Way to go!!!
    
   /-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\
   a-> "Catch the wave" of the FLOOD of info on the Internet's World-Wide Web!
   b->           "Surf's up!"  (Noah WEBster, ~6000 B.C.)
     (-: b-> was excerpted from the "Mosaic Tradition" - with a few errors :-)
   \-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/-\-/

re Note 2643.28 by DRDAN::KALIKOW:

>      -< Where's Bob?  Writing a fine Op-Ed piece in today's Boston GLOBE >-
  
        Does this signal a new relationship between the head of
        Digital and the Globe?

        Bob

    no, they're "just friends."  :-)
    
    Mark